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Programbo
01-04-2007, 19:26
I am in the process of writing something and am at the part where I am remembering some odd "things" I could have sworn I saw up along the trail over the years as well as things people I met back then told me they saw....So I figure I`d ask here...Has anyone on this board Personally seen anything odd at any time in your hiking career on the AT?..Ghosts..Big Foot..UFO..15 foot dragon fly..Gargoyle..Ostrich..Armadillo..Anything?

rafe
01-04-2007, 19:31
Many, many moons ago... I was camped (illegally) near one of the AMC huts. A beautiful starry night, with a lady friend. A meteorite fell, so close that we could hear it. Not supernatural, but I'll never forget it.

Footslogger
01-04-2007, 19:34
Does it count if they were chemically induced ??

'Slogger

Jan LiteShoe
01-04-2007, 19:36
.Has anyone on this board Personally seen anything odd at any time in your hiking career on the AT?.

You mean odder than Tootslogger in a propeller beanie?
:)

SergeStorms
01-04-2007, 19:37
I lurked here for a while before joining and I recall some old threads that dealt with this subject. Unexplained events, sightings, noises, etc., are a hobby of mine. It's convenient living in one of the most haunted places in the country. I've never seen anything unexplained while hiking on the AT, but a few others on this site have.

Jan LiteShoe
01-04-2007, 19:38
I am in the process of writing something and am at the part where I am remembering some odd "things" I could have sworn I saw up along the trail over the years as well as things people I met back then told me they saw....So I figure I`d ask here...Has anyone on this board Personally seen anything odd at any time in your hiking career on the AT?..Ghosts..Big Foot..UFO..15 foot dragon fly..Gargoyle..Ostrich..Armadillo..Anything?

Now, to be serious (:banana:sun:rolleyes::-?),

I have always wanted to track down the Brown Mountain Lights in NC.
I bet someone on this list has seen them, near Linville Gorge.
Google Brown Mountain Lights if it doesn't ring a bell.

Footslogger
01-04-2007, 19:39
You mean odder than Tootslogger in a propeller beanie?
:)

================================

...not to mention the Kilt !!

Jan LiteShoe
01-04-2007, 19:40
================================

...not to mention the Kilt !!

Oh yes.
Gives odd a whole new meaning!
:)

Jan LiteShoe
01-04-2007, 19:42
Now, to be serious (:banana:sun:rolleyes::-?),

I have always wanted to track down the Brown Mountain Lights in NC.
I bet someone on this list has seen them, near Linville Gorge.
Google Brown Mountain Lights if it doesn't ring a bell.

How about a Brown-Mountain-Light-Hunting Ruck this summer?
LOL.

Jack Tarlin
01-04-2007, 19:43
It's not exactly on the Trail, but I'm convinced that Gettysburg is haunted.

Jan LiteShoe
01-04-2007, 19:46
It's not exactly on the Trail, but I'm convinced that Gettysburg is haunted.

Why say you?
Story?

Gray Blazer
01-04-2007, 20:05
Weelll...I have strange dreams about the Burningtown/Wayah Bald area and when I went there and took a picture at Burningtown Gap, low and behold, there was a Spirit Orb that showed up in the pic. Alright, it could be a reflection, but, I have nothing like it in any of my other pics. I had really strange dreams at Lemon Gap near Hot Springs. I'm talking vision dreams that you can remember every part of even years later. Brown Mountain Light Hunting Ruck sounds like fun.

Lyle
01-04-2007, 20:26
Not me personally, but if you check out G-Walk's journal from '06 he talks of a possibly haunted room #24 at the Doyle. He told me about it personally a couple days after the event, but has included a brief mention in his Trailsjournal. Even included a picture.

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=145215

trlhiker
01-04-2007, 20:38
They say that Punchbowl shelter is haunted by a little boy who was found died ontop of Bluff Mountain. If I remember right, there is a small memorial to him on the AT as it crosses the top. I used to belong to a hiking club in VA and some of the members who have slept there have heard the cries of a young boy in the middle of the night.

Boat Drinks
01-04-2007, 21:05
Does it count if they were chemically induced ??

'Slogger


LMAO. I imagine there are plenty of those stories!:dance :jump

Sarge
01-04-2007, 21:43
I was walking along the trail on the east end of the Smokies and came across a funny looking green piece of metal. Being an ex-Air Force mechanic I recognized it as a piece of an aircraft bulkhead painted zinc chromate primer green, but couldn't figure out for the life of me what it was doing up there. Later that day I saw a couple of park rangers and I asked them about it. They told me an F-4 Phantom had crashed up there in the early 80's. I now work as a contractor on an Air Force base and currently work with a guy who remembered that crash because he was stationed at Shaw AFB in South Carolina where it was based when it crashed. Small world.

LeeF
01-04-2007, 21:43
Sign me up for the Brown Mountain Lights Ruck. Wilsons Creek in summer is a great swimming-hiking trip.

rafe
01-04-2007, 23:08
I was walking along the trail on the east end of the Smokies and came across a funny looking green piece of metal. Being an ex-Air Force mechanic I recognized it as a piece of an aircraft bulkhead painted zinc chromate primer green, but couldn't figure out for the life of me what it was doing up there. Later that day I saw a couple of park rangers and I asked them about it. They told me an F-4 Phantom had crashed up there in the early 80's. I now work as a contractor on an Air Force base and currently work with a guy who remembered that crash because he was stationed at Shaw AFB in South Carolina where it was based when it crashed. Small world.


I seem to recall a similar (long-ago) plane crash somewhere down near Muskrat Creek Shelter? Or was I imagining that? There's a plane wreck somewhere in Baxter... but not near the AT. Takes some bushwhacking to find it, I'm told.

CaptChaos
01-04-2007, 23:53
An interesting question.

The one experience that spooked me occured many years ago when I was heading from the Instuite at Tremont parking lot up to Spence Field Shelter.

I was new to all of the this and I misjudged the total trail length from the parking lot to the top at Spence Field. Up I went and for hours found myself on the Bote Mtn trail. My pack was to heavy and I had run out of water but I was getting closer when I felt faint and I had to sit down and get out of my pack.

I would guess that it was about 10 min when a very old couple came from no where and stoped to talk with me. I was a mess, there was nothing dry that I had on and must have looked pretty bad.

The couple struck me as odd as they were both wearing white t-shirts, white shorts, white socks, white tennis shoes and they carried no butt pack, no day pack, no water, nothing. And what I remeber the most was that here we are about 3/4 mile away from Spence Field and the AT and this couple looks as clean as if they just steped out of their car.

The lady does the talking and she wants to know if I am ok. I tell her that I am fine that I just need to rest a little bit but that I am very close to where I am going.

The man tells the lady lets go he says he is fine. She continues to ask me if i am sure that I am ok. I again explain that my pack was very heavy and that I was going to be up here for a coule of days but that i was feeling just fine, somewhat tired but I would sleep good tonght.

The man again tells the lady lets go he says he is ok. the lady looks at the man and says "Well, we were talking that we needed to check up on him and I just wanted to make sure he is ok", the man says, "he told you he is fine, now lets be off or we will be late".

This couple wish me well and off they go like a young couple on a brisk hike. As I look up at the trail and my pack and I turn to look at them again they are gone. The trail turned to the left and I went to the curve to look at them and they were no where in sight.

I know that it sounds weird but this is a true story of mine and I have always wondered but in the shape that I was in and the heat that I was in during August it was most likely nothing. Just an older couple out hiking a loop from Cades cove, Russell fields shelter, Spence Field and back to Cades cove.

I have always wished that I had asked if they were something else but I would have felt pretty stupid if they were just out for the day. I will never know but if I ever write a book I can assure you that this will be one of my stories.

Who knows.

CaptChaos :sun

Jan LiteShoe
01-05-2007, 00:15
Sign me up for the Brown Mountain Lights Ruck. Wilsons Creek in summer is a great swimming-hiking trip.

You know the area better than me.
Why don't you "organize" it?
Declare it, chose the date and the camping spot.. and they will come.
:)
Keeping it primitive and bring-your-own would keep it simple.

PJ 2005
01-05-2007, 00:33
I remember reading an interesting entry in the punchbowl shelter register...

Apparently this guy was on a solo overnight and stayed there alone. In the middle of the night he woke up to what sounded like an animal in the shelter, but when he shined his light, there was a little boy rummaging through his pack. The boy was startled and ran off into the woods (the hiker didn't follow him because it was winter). Next morning he found his clothes folded neatly beside his pack.

Likely fabricated, but eery nonetheless. Especially when you're there!

rafe
01-05-2007, 00:37
Weird Hikes (http://www.amazon.com/Weird-Hikes-Collection-Bizarre-Absolutely/dp/0762725869/sr=8-1/qid=1167971668/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8826985-4964662?ie=UTF8&s=books). Easy reading and moderately entertaining. None of the hikes were on the AT, though.

Gray Blazer
01-05-2007, 00:37
I remember reading an interesting entry in the punchbowl shelter register...

Apparently this guy was on a solo overnight and stayed there alone. In the middle of the night he woke up to what sounded like an animal in the shelter, but when he shined his light, there was a little boy rummaging through his pack. The boy was startled and ran off into the woods (the hiker didn't follow him because it was winter). Next morning he found his clothes folded neatly beside his pack.

Likely fabricated, but eery nonetheless. Especially when you're there!
Kinda like a spiritual laundramat.

Socrates
01-05-2007, 08:40
Jesus Christ, I just haaad to come and read this thread. Jaws keeps me out of the water... Even lakes. The Blair Witch Project has haunted me forever and now this. Frikin great... This is why I don't like tarps and hammocks and my tent is the size of a small hotel. Screw bears, the first time I see a ghost, somebody is gonna get a new tentmate whether they like it or not. And any thru hikers reading this that might be scheming, just know that I have a specially designed boot for the sole purpose of going where the sun doesn't shine. Not that it's related, but is anyone looking for a hiking buddy? Haha

bfitz
01-05-2007, 09:22
Some legend surrounding Unaka mountian and an old indian spirit, but I can't remember the story....? Miss Janet would know.

PJ 2005
01-05-2007, 09:51
Unaka is CREEPY. I was up there in the fog and it looked like something straight out of a horror movie.

LeeF
01-05-2007, 10:28
A great thing about these mountains is that they had legends and ghost stories attached to them before the first European ever stepped foot on North America. You have to wonder about legends that endure centuries of time.

-The blood on the rocks at Dark Mtn pre-dates Columbus. Not a place to be on a full moon night.
-Fern Valley is absolutely beautiful but you will never see an animal in that valley.
-The area the Cherokee and Catawba tribes fought and thousands died in one battle will give you cold chills.

While they're not supernatural events I have some great memories like:

-camping on the Pine Mtn Trail at Mount Rogers and hearing the coyotes howl on a full moon night. My second trip there I had one almost directly under my hammock at 3 am. He must have thought I was the worst smelling thing he'd ever seen in a tree.

-paddling four miles up the Little River one warm spring afternoon and staying out too long because the fish were biting. Then having to drift back downstream in the dark. My Brother and I could heard a bobcat screaming for 30 minutes before we finally rounded the bend where the rock juts out over the river. Sure enough the bobcat was on the rock six feet above our heads. He briefly looked down on us with distain and then with one leap disappeared into the dark. To fully appreciate this you must have experienced the mating calls of the bobcat. It sounds like a women screaming at the top of her lungs, repeatedly.

Hammock Hanger
01-05-2007, 10:30
I never saw anything I would consider "alien" on the trail. However, I know a woman who swears that she saw am alien spacecraft land on a pond in the Adirondacks....

stumpknocker
01-05-2007, 10:38
I never saw anything I would consider "alien" on the trail. However, I know a woman who swears that she saw am alien spacecraft land on a pond in the Adirondacks....

Hey Hammock Hanger, I once saw two moons on the other side of a ravine. ;)

woodsy
01-05-2007, 10:44
To fully appreciate this you must have experienced the mating calls of the bobcat. It sounds like a women screaming at the top of her lungs, repeatedly. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=297190)
And if you do, you will NEVER forget it!

REBELYELL
01-05-2007, 11:19
Once past Waynsboro Va,anyone on the AT going north has about a fifty-fifty chance of stepping on the site of a violent death due to wars and local dasterdly deeds,with every step they take.Life was once very cheap in the valley,very cheap.

Kevin A. Boyce
01-05-2007, 11:35
Also there is the legandary Dudleytown up here in CT along what was part of the original AT, but now it is the Mohawk Trail. People have commented on everything from Blair Witch like stories, to supernatural animals, to sounds and cold chills. It always seems to be mentioned as one of the most haunted places in the NE. Do a search on Dudleytown on Google, you will find a bunch of stuff.

It is technically off limits, you can longer drive up to the area, if you do the neighbors will call the cops; the road is called Dark Entry Rd as well.... spookey. But you can access via foot on the Mohawk Trail.

A bizarre aside is that the area is a bird lovers paradise, many people go there to spot.

Also up the trail, there is a rumor that Sages Ravine is also haunted...
http://www.curbstone.org/index.cfm?webpage=92

Some wierd stuff in them thar' hills...

Catch you later...
KevBoy

JP
01-05-2007, 13:31
Saw a ghost at the Doyle. Late at night I felt my bed shaking. I first thought it was just vibrations from the near by trains, but I didnt hear a train. When I finaly opened my eyes I saw some guy at the foot of the bed. Then I realized I could see through him and see the window behind him with dim light shining through him. He then walked to the side of the bed, and bent over and looked me in the eyes ,and said " Stop Snoring!!! You woke me up!!! ". In the morning I asked around but nobody had seen anything, but some guy was snoring so loud they couldnt get to sleep.

Gray Blazer
01-05-2007, 13:32
Saw a ghost at the Doyle. Late at night I felt my bed shaking. I first thought it was just vibrations from the near by trains, but I didnt hear a train. When I finaly opened my eyes I saw some guy at the foot of the bed. Then I realized I could see through him and see the window behind him with dim light shining through him. He then walked to the side of the bed, and bent over and looked me in the eyes ,and said " Stop Snoring!!! You woke me up!!! ". In the morning I asked around but nobody had seen anything, but some guy was snoring so loud they couldnt get to sleep.LOL, I've heard of people snoring so luod they could wake the dead. I guess it's true.

Footslogger
01-05-2007, 13:39
I remember looking up as I approached the summit of Snowbird Mountain and thinking that a spaceship had landed ...but maybe that was just the mushrooms !!

'Slogger

otterman
01-05-2007, 14:07
LOL, I've heard of people snoring so luod they could wake the dead. I guess it's true.

Now that's funny!

Hammock Hanger
01-05-2007, 14:15
Hey Hammock Hanger, I once saw two moons on the other side of a ravine. ;)

Hope they wer round, full and shiney!!!:p

Hammock Hanger
01-05-2007, 14:17
I remember looking up as I approached the summit of Snowbird Mountain and thinking that a spaceship had landed ...but maybe that was just the mushrooms !!

'Slogger
I saw that same spaceship, I must have eaten the same shrooms... perhaps they were in Mt Momma's burgers.

Paul Bunyan
01-05-2007, 15:31
Weelll...I have strange dreams about the Burningtown/Wayah Bald area and when I went there and took a picture at Burningtown Gap, low and behold, there was a Spirit Orb that showed up in the pic. Alright, it could be a reflection, but, I have nothing like it in any of my other pics. I had really strange dreams at Lemon Gap near Hot Springs. I'm talking vision dreams that you can remember every part of even years later. Brown Mountain Light Hunting Ruck sounds like fun.

I had one of those dreams once, but it involved really tall wizards, people turning in to goblins, and a church.

bzmnboy
01-05-2007, 23:57
Also there is the legandary Dudleytown up here in CT along what was part of the original AT, but now it is the Mohawk Trail. People have commented on everything from Blair Witch like stories, to supernatural animals, to sounds and cold chills. It always seems to be mentioned as one of the most haunted places in the NE. Do a search on Dudleytown on Google, you will find a bunch of stuff.

It is technically off limits, you can longer drive up to the area, if you do the neighbors will call the cops; the road is called Dark Entry Rd as well.... spookey. But you can access via foot on the Mohawk Trail.


Okay I have a story about Dudleytown. I am also from the NY/CT border and I used to hike the A.T. section near Kent a couple times a year. Last year I hiked the whole CT section (my first long distance trip) and my buddy who I hiked with told me about when he snuck into Dudleytown. He wouldn't let us sleep within twenty miles of the place.

He told me this story.

He snuck in with another person I know, and that persons older brother. They had a GPS, compass and all the other equiptment as they intended to overnight. Supposedly a whole extended family had lived up there and then one day they all were gone, no remains or anything, just dissapeared. Well when they neared the top of the hill they saw the remains of buildings with foundations and everything. The first thing they noticed was the silence and the fact that there were no animals anywhere around. They turned on the GPS and low and behold there was no signal, but the GPS was pretty much flipping out. If that was not weird enough the compass was just spinning around with no chance of working. They started hearing strange noises and seeing fleeting images, almost like leaves blowing, except there was no wind. After this they bolted. It doesn't sound like much, but he says that ever since the incident he has been plagued by nightmares and cold chills. He was nearly in tears telling me this story and by the end he was shivering even though we had gone miles on the trail in 85 degree weather. I was frightened just listening.
-Geoffrey

n2o2diver
01-06-2007, 00:46
Something very odd happened to me this week. I was hiking this weekend and when I was breaking down my hammock I lost a stuff sack (I have two stuff sacks, one for the hammock and one for the underpad). I set the underpad stuff sack on the ground and stuffed the hammock in its sack. I looked down and the other stuff sack was gone. I looked everywhere for it. I dumped my whole pack out. Went through all the pockets and compartments, looked it the pockets of clothes, set the hammock back up to make sure it wasn't tangled in it some how, I looked everywhere. I spent over an hour looking for the damn stuff sack. Nothing, so I thought maybe it blew away, so I walked around looking for it , under rocks, bushes, in the trees, everywhere but I could not find it. So I resigned, its gone.

I got home that Sunday night and tossed my pack in a closet and it has stayed there since. I haven't even opened the door to that closet all week. So whats odd???

I walk in the house today (Friday) and the stuff sack is sitting on the floor in the living room next to the couch. I was freaked out! HOW the hell did it get there??? It is a unique double ended Hennesy Hammock stuff sack and I only have the one. My head is still spinning. I live alone, no roomates or anything, no one else comes to my house, ie maid or other workers. It's just too freaky.

FanaticFringer
01-06-2007, 01:59
I once saw a good ole boy playing a banjo on the trail........err...nevermind.....

Tipi Walter
01-06-2007, 07:17
I've had two scary moments out backpacking:

When I was homeless and living out of my pack I used to stealth camp near a university and one night I decided to stay in town for a campus movie, American Werewolf in London. Around midnight after the movie I strapped on my pack and headed up into the dark woods to a favorite little campsite. Along the way, well, I kept seeing this man-wolf thing running towards me at high speed and I knew for sure that if it didn't get me on the trail it certainly would at the next campsite. Scared spitless.

The other time I was bedroll camping in a treeline by a creek without a tent and late in the night somethng crept up behind me and let out the most godawful screaming wail. I froze up solid and waited and it came again, a combination of a baby's cry and a hyiena yelp. Scared spitless. Later some local boys told me it was an angry DEER getting personal. I didn't know it but a deer can make some pretty twisted sounds.

Programbo
01-06-2007, 10:52
I once saw a good ole boy playing a banjo on the trail........err...nevermind.....

As long as you didn`t ask him for directions and he said "Aintry? This trail don`t go to Aintry you done taken a wrong turn!"

Just a quick sidenote of movie trivia..The boy in Deliverence wasn`t actually playing that banjo ;)

zephyr1034
05-29-2023, 04:19
Forget Dudleytown. The most haunted, creepy place in the world is the Smoky Mountains.

Don't believe me? Google these names:

Dennis Martin
Polly Melton
Trenny Gibson

LazyLightning
05-29-2023, 09:20
You could really forget Dudleytown now... They finally closed that section of the Mohawk Trail (old AT) and I have no inside info and am not a betting man but would bet a lot of money that people going to Dudleytown is the reason. Why they had to close a huge section of trail when only a tiny portion is in Dark Entry Forest is beyond me. They should be able to reroute around and still come out on Dark Entry Rd. in the state forest.

So now apparently the state forest is closed and you can't walk up Dark Entry Ravine anymore but you could walk in from the other side to a view and go back. Forget about getting any info from CFPA though, that's like pulling teeth. I inquired after the trail was closed but more importantly volunteering to help with any reroute but never a word back, like the last 5 or so times. They want your money but don't care about much physical help apparently. I had to call them out sending actual letter and e-mails to every address associated to finally get somebody to say "I don't think anyone would take umbrage if you cut some over grown branches". Before that they told me I could kick sticks aside but not to use my hand saw but then continually ask me for $ saying each mile of trail costs this much maintain. So it's no more money from me, I don't trust where that goes anyway. My donations are all physical on the trail where I know it counts.

NY HIKER 50
05-29-2023, 11:39
I've posted a number of times about my experiences. A search might find them. I sometimes wonder if I'm a ghost magnet. I was a bit friendly with some of the "residents" of one place. They even told me a good place to camp for the night once and it worked out.

NY HIKER 50
05-29-2023, 12:01
Oh, and they kind of let me know in a way that they really did not want me staying at the edge of the place. Fine with me I spent a nice night where I was pointed to.

RockDoc
05-29-2023, 14:02
I was creeped out by a plane crash site in MD between Lamb's Knoll and Gathland SP, back in the mid 70's. Cessna Skymaster. I haven't been able to find it on many times since going through there. But at the time I thought it had just happened.. parts scattered everywhere and a clear window to the sky where it had sheared off the trees.

More recently, there was a big one in northern VA (Mt Weather), maybe in the late 80's?, a 747 I think that had set off from Dulles and clipped the ridge, sawing off trees and making a huge clearing. I recall seeing the scratches it made crossing the pavement of the MT Weather road. Many fatalities in that one.

BradMT
06-03-2023, 09:48
More recently, there was a big one in northern VA (Mt Weather), maybe in the late 80's?, a 747 I think that had set off from Dulles and clipped the ridge, sawing off trees and making a huge clearing. I recall seeing the scratches it made crossing the pavement of the MT Weather road. Many fatalities in that one.


It was 1974, and was a TWA 727. All 92 on board were killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_514

NY HIKER 50
06-03-2023, 17:05
I've posted a number of times about my experiences. A search might find them. I sometimes wonder if I'm a ghost magnet. I was a bit friendly with some of the "residents" of one place. They even told me a good place to camp for the night once and it worked out.
Oh, and they kind of let me know in a way that they really did not want me staying at the edge of the place or near it. Fine with me I spent a nice night where I was pointed to.

I guess I never said what it was. It was a cemetery beside the trail. They also had a story to tell and I did berify what they told me. Not saying where it was.

Starchild
06-04-2023, 10:21
Not on the AT but one time I was walking a trail which had some light snow on it. This trail had no other intersections at/near this point. I met a woman walking the other way and started a brief conversation with her and she reminded me a lot of a good friend. After talking we went our separate ways and as I was walking a bit I noticed there were no footprints that she should have left in the snow. I didn't go back to check where we were talking as I was determined to get to where I needed to be, but I can't imagine how that would have happened and if she bushwhacked onto the trail I would probably have noticed that track.

gpburdelljr
06-04-2023, 12:32
When we see something, our brains aren’t recording it like a video camera. The image on the retina is converted into a nerve signal to the brain. The brain interprets what the nerve signal means based on past experiences, and preconceived ideas. If you don’t recognize what you are seeing, the brain may interpret it as something it isn’t. In other words if you believe in ghosts, you are more likely to interpret an ambiguous sight as a ghost.

Mother Natures Son
06-05-2023, 06:17
Back in the 80s, the AT was routed through an old cemetery in the Cumberland Valley (PA). I tell you the truth, it gave me the chills every time I walked though it.

RockDoc
06-11-2023, 16:55
Oh I think the Shenny's could compete for the most haunted place... in the 30's hundreds of people were forcibly removed from shacks in the backcountry. Many died. Reading their stories is heartwrenching. Read the biography of Mr Corbin of PATC Corbin cabin fame (a small distance off the AT). His wife died on the upstairs floor, where many hikers and visitors now sleep. I've stayed there many times since the 1970's... https://www.patc.net/PATC/Cabins/Individual_Cabins/Corbin.aspx

gpburdelljr
06-12-2023, 09:30
I think if you could see markers at all the places people have died in North America since the first people arrived, you’d probably be very surprised at all the markers. Yet, most ‘supernatural’ sightings/feelings seem to occur where the person affected already knew someone had died there.

peakbagger
06-12-2023, 09:55
Are they glitch in the matrix (DeJa'Vu) or just leftover from a past version ;)