View Full Version : Free Information...Good or Bad?
Jack Tarlin
01-06-2007, 18:32
A recent post from Teej about the Thru-Hiker's Companion has inspired this thread.
As many of you know, ALDHA (The Appalachian Long-Distance Hiker's Association) and the ATC (The Appalachian Trail Conservancy) jointly publish an annual book, The Thru-Hikers Companion, which is one of the two principal guidebook/handbboks used by folks contemplating long trips on the A.T. The
Companion (and its similar counterpart, The Thru-Hikers Handbook) contains invaluable information on the Trail: Mileage figures; location of shelters, campsites, and water sources; locations of road crossings, etc. It also provides detailed information on towns, markets, businesses catering to hikers, Post Offices, banks, places that hold hiker mail, hiker hostels and B&B's, shuttling services, etc. In short, these books are invaluable, and it is a very rare long-distance hiker that does not continually rely on one or the other during the course of their trip.
One of these books, the Thru-Hikers Companion is available for free, on-line, at www.aldha.org This is done as a public service by ALDHA
and lots of people use it every year.
While I freely acknowledge that a great many people benefit from ALDHA's kindness in posting this information, it probably costs ALDHA and the ATC a great deal of many in lost revenue, i.e. lost book sales.
So my question to Whiteblazers is this: Should people that want this information be able to get it for free, or is it more proper that they pay for it, thus benefitting the two non-profit (and very cash-hungry!!) non-profit organizations that provide it? In other words, is it in ALDHA's and ATC's best interest to give this data away, or should people that want it be compelled to purchase the actual book?
What do you guys think?
The actual numbers matter for this discussion to be most usefull.
My guess is that the population of people who refer to the Companion on a casual basis on line, would not otherwise go out and buy a copy.
I could be wrong.
On the otherhand, my guess is that this free service draws a good number of people to the ALDHA web site who might otherwise not visit. And in the process inspire some of those visitors to join, or otherwise have a superior experience along the AT.
While the former is a worthy goal, the latter might be even more central to the ALDHA's mission.
Just my $.02
I dont think that the ATC and ALDHA neccecarily have to be making any profit on the books, so long as they are breaking even on them. I think that it would be more appropriate to make their money off of T-shirts, stickers, and other things that are not as necessary. Compare it to Whiteblaze, some people donate, some people don't. Some people after hiking the trail dont have the money to donate, but have their experiances to share with others. You shouldn't always have to involve money into things.
mountain squid
01-06-2007, 19:36
I purchased a 2002 Companion. In the following years, I have downloaded the sections that I needed. I'm glad they offer the download, I wouldn't want to purchase a new one every year for only a handful (I'm sure there are plenty, I just don't know how many) of updates. Eventually, I'll probably purchase another one as my "hard-copy" becomes full of notes, etc...
But to answer your question - THEY offer it for free, so why should anyone feel compelled to purchase one. If ALDHA was not offering the Companion freely, then that would be different.
So, I think, maybe buy at least one and then after that utilize the free download.
But, I also find it interesting that on the other thread you've advocated for giving "Changes/Errors/Omissions" for "free" here on WB :confused:. (Although I find it "interesting" I also think it is a good idea, especially since ALDHA is offering it for free in the first place.)
Just my thoughts. Back to football...
See you on the trail,
mt squid
Sleepy the Arab
01-06-2007, 19:47
How about a suggested donation and a Paypal link?
Personally, I don't think it makes got financial sense - there is nothing to stop every potential thru-hiker from downloading it and ALDHA would be without a significant portion of income. It's not like the book is prohibitively priced either. Compared to most guidebooks, it's a bargain.
On the other hand, how many thru-hikers don't buy it and look over my shoulder at mine? Lousy go-liters...
How about raising the fee for The Gathering? Talk about underpriced!!! Just a $10 increase would raise a lot of dough, and probably only run off a handful of folks. They could add a scholarship system for those that really couldn't afford $25.
TJ aka Teej
01-06-2007, 20:01
But to answer your question - THEY offer it for free, so why should anyone feel compelled to purchase one. If ALDHA was not offering the Companion freely, then that would be different.
Good thread, Jack!
From last year's ALDHA website:
The online Companion
You can now download a copy of the 2006 Thru-Hikers Companion off the ALDHA Web site in Acrobat Reader format. We hope you will like what you see and be encouraged to buy a copy to help keep this project going.
One of the many reasons I'm a Companion volunteer is that the info I gather is made available at no charge.
an afterthought: The ATC gets more than just money from the ALDHA Companion. They get more people interested in, and out hiking on, the Appalachian Trail. That's priceless!
I've been searcing all over that website Jack, and nowhere is there a link for a free download for the Companion. I have in the past, downloaded the sections I was hiking, but now there doesn't seem to be that option. I think ALDHA and the ATC has taken care of this question themselves. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If someone can find the link for the free download, please post it here. I was curious as to the changes that have been made. I hear it's all in one book now and better than the thru-hikers handboook.
TJ aka Teej
01-06-2007, 20:13
It's just not up for this year yet, lilred.
It will be, and we'll post the link to it here as soon as it happens!
that was quick teej, thanks.
bigcranky
01-06-2007, 20:20
I buy the printed Companion every year or two, and download the pages I need for any upcoming section hike. I like to do this because I can print out exactly the pages I want for any section, and not have to cut up the book. I suppose if it were no longer available on line, I'd just scan or photocopy the pages I wanted out of the book, but that's something of a PITA.
Keep it free... or not?
I would think section hikers are more likely to download only sections of the online edition. It just would be not be worth the $15 in time, ink, and paper for a thru-hiker to print it out.
How much is a section worth? I don't know and haven't made up my mind on this...
I bought 4 copies of the 2007 because my picture is on the back...LOL
mountain squid
01-06-2007, 20:43
From last year's ALDHA website:
The online Companion
You can now download a copy of the 2006 Thru-Hikers Companion off the ALDHA Web site in Acrobat Reader format. We hope you will like what you see and be encouraged to buy a copy to help keep this project going.
I'll buy that TJ (pun intended, I think :-? ).
As far as printing downloaded pages, I've never done that. I transcribe the necessary data on to my maps. Best of both worlds - I have the data and the maps without any additional weight...
See you on the trail,
mt squid
Johnny Swank
01-06-2007, 21:07
In the end it depends on what their final mission is for that particular document. A funding source? Strictly information? Volunteer recruitment? Advocacy?
Based on some back of the napkin figures I'm pulling out of the sky, I'm guessing that this project doesn't pull in that much money in the grand scheme of things. As long as they aren't losing money (and you'd have to figure in staff time, postage, and all sort of stuff as well) I think it's fine the way it is.
If we're going to have a bunch of folks wandering around on the trail every year, I'd rather have them somewhat informed about the AT, it's history, unique management structure, and whatever else they can pick up along the way. In my mind the Companion serves many roles- fundraising being a relatively minor one.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-06-2007, 21:49
How about raising the fee for The Gathering? Talk about underpriced!!! Just a $10 increase would raise a lot of dough, and probably only run off a handful of folks. They could add a scholarship system for those that really couldn't afford $25.This sounds like an excellent idea.
As Rick notes, those who need info on a short section of the trail are not likely to buy the guide. Those who are thru-hiking or hiking longer sections will likely buy the guide. This isn't going to change regardless of of whether ALDHA makes the material available free or people get it elsewhere (most of the info is available elsewhere on the Net.)
I don't think raising the Gathering fee to $20 would run off that many people but I'm sure you have tons not even registering which would effect membership losing those dues too.
And besides why should the Gathering subsidize the online Comapanion?
And how would a sholarship system work? Let's not make ALDHA something it isn't or was never intended to be...
I don't think raising the Gathering fee to $20 would run off that many people but I'm sure you have tons not even registering which would effect membership losing those dues too.
And besides why should the Gathering subsidize the online Comapanion?
What Jack is talking about is added revenue for ALDHA. It is one thing to generate revenue. It is another thing to spend those funds wisely.
I'm not sure what ALDHA would do with an extra $5000 annually. They could get better entertainment at The Gathering, but I kinda like the "folksy" feel to it. They could donate the funds to ATC or the MATLT or some other deserving trail organization. They could also improve some of their other publications, or print & distribute additional Endangered Services Campaign materials. IMO, that's one of ALDHA's best programs. Those materials should be prominently placed in EVERY trail town along the way - if possible. There are probably a half dozen other things they could do with additional funds.
I would be in favor of increasing the cost for The Gathering if eastern trails would benefit from the revenue increase. But I'm only a member, and not a Director.
I know Warren would howl at this suggestion. I wonder how some of the other ALDHA Pioneers would feel about this suggestion. :-?
And how would a sholarship system work? Let's not make ALDHA something it isn't or was never intended to be...
Good point. I'm just tossing out ideas in stream of consciousness mode. Think of my ideas as brain food. Mmmmm...
My feelings are if ALDHA wants to raise more money, they should offer more, or do more, not just raise dues and Gathering fees.
One way would be to make it more easy to buy T-shirts, mugs, etc along with being able to pay dues and Gathering fees online. I've brought it up several times but no one wants to take the easy step forward.
The Solemates
01-06-2007, 22:28
i have always found it intriguing that they do not charge for the compansion. i think people would buy it if they sold it as a book only. but then again, someone else would come along and post it free online anyways...
fishinfred
01-06-2007, 22:56
Great post Jack!
Free is nice but $15 is not alot for a guidebook to this adventure ,and $15 many times over could go a long way ....... if the organization doesn't need the extra money from it then give it to the Trail . Trail Maintenance Clubs or the ATC for Trail Preservation for the future .....
Jim Adams
01-06-2007, 23:05
i buy every guide book that i use. charge for it.
,,,,,In my mind the Companion serves many roles- fundraising being a relatively minor one.
That seems like a reasonable conclusion, but I have no way of knowing for sure. I do know that the critical trail organizations -- the maintaining clubs and the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. need far more support from the hiking community than they are getting. Well, I know this is true for MATC and the ATC. I suspect it is true for many of the other clubs.
But MATC and ATC are a distinct minority. Both are most involved in the trail itself, rather than the social aspects of hiking. MATC has a winter social -- basically a pot luck supper and speaker every February. But the reason MATC was founded and has continued over the decades is to maintain to the best of our ability the 300 miles of the AT in Maine and it's critical access trails. We are under a little handicap. Most other maintaining clubs are hiking and social organizations which do trail maintenance as a side activity. The social aspects serve as recruiters for trail maintainers, and a source of funds.
Why is MATC different? In part because it was organized by Myron Avery for the specific purpose of constructing and maintaining the trail in Maine. In part because the Maine Chapter, AMC, has always been heavily involved in organizing and leading hikes -- and only marginally involved in trail maintenance. There has never been any convincing reason for MATC and the Maine Chapter to totally duplicate each other's activities.
ATC has it's biennial conferences, which are part social, part business. But the real role of the Conservancy is to make sure the maintaining clubs do their jobs properly and to ensure that common standards of quality are achieved up and down the trail. And most importantly to keep the trail from becoming a national park service bureaucracy.
That role is seriously compromised by the failure of most hikers to participate. Hikers by and large willingly contribute to further the social aspects of the trail. They largely ignore the critical maintenance role.
Yeah, I know a few go out after the Gatherings to do maintenance. Or help Bob Peoples with his section after stopping at his hostel. All great activities. Feel good activities. But not the broad sustained support the trail needs on a continuing basis.
Part of the reason is the ATC leadership itself. It has not been an effective advocate for the trail. The name change and reorganization sought to set a new direction, but so far it hasn't particularly helped.
Why this long complaint? I spent the day at an MATC all day planning session. The central message was that money needed to do the stuff the trail desperately needs isn't coming in. We talked about how to attract more hiker interest in the trail, and explored a lot of good ideas. We'll survive. The trail will remain as it always has. As usual a few will do the hard work. A few will beg for the needed funds. And many will debate whether ATC and ALDHA should offer the Companion on line for free.
Weary www.matc.org
atcm
Johnny Swank
01-06-2007, 23:12
I absolutely agree with the online ordering. It would take all of 15 minutes to set up a shopping cart and accept online payments through their web hosting service. ALDHA could just use a paypal cart if nothing else - you can now do visa/mastercard payments with Paypal. Any additional steps to collect money (print order form, send check) is costing them any impulse sales they would have gotten otherwise.
I absolutely agree with the online ordering. It would take all of 15 minutes to set up a shopping cart and accept online payments through their web hosting service. ALDHA could just use a paypal cart if nothing else - you can now do visa/mastercard payments with Paypal. Any additional steps to collect money (print order form, send check) is costing them any impulse sales they would have gotten otherwise.
Yup.... I forwared all the particulars. And if I'm not mistaken helped Weary realize this with his cause, although they went with groundspring.
Johnny Swank
01-06-2007, 23:25
Weary,
I agree that the ATC and ALDHA could alway use more money, and getting volunteers out to do a remote stretch is always going to be a problem. I'd be fine with them doing the selling the online edition as an Ebook or something in lieu of just giving the info away. They could always post the introduction, some background on the trail, and maybe the first page of each state so folks could get an idea about what the Companion is about.
But really, they've got to get things together with the online sales before doing anything else. It's not even available at Amazon.com. There's no reason for that to be an issue.
Actually, if anyone from ALDHA is reading this, please send me a PM. I'd like to talk to ya'll about how to get this set up.
Actually, if anyone from ALDHA is reading this, please send me a PM. I'd like to talk to ya'll about how to get this set up.
Yeah maybe they'll listen to you. Apparently I'm not taken very seriously. :rolleyes:
Johnny Swank
01-06-2007, 23:39
Oh - I just saw your post on top of mine. OK ALDHA peoples, you have 2 folks on here that can probably get you hooked up with the online sales thing pretty quickly. Time to realize that it's 2007.
Alligator
01-07-2007, 00:23
My experience.
I only use the Companion sporadically, as most of my hikes are weekend trips. If it wasn't available for free, I wouldn't buy it. I'm not going to buy a new one every year, my need for services is limited, and I can do just fine without it. Rick's post was very insightful.
I would make a donation for the sections I use if there was an easy link. This has been suggested and should be considered on the download page. Otherwise, I'll just throw in some extra money the next time I attend a Gathering.
hammock engineer
01-07-2007, 03:12
I buy it just for the convinence factor. It is simpler than managing a bunch of copies.
How about this. Offer it free download with membership. It would only take a little bit of coding on the website to make that happen. This might help increase membership which would help bring in some more money.
Pokey2006
01-07-2007, 03:26
I say keep offering it for free, for one reason: almost everyone buys the book, anyway.
It is my understanding that the free, online version is a year old. They won't post the 2007 edition until next year. Plus, the online version doesn't include the blow-by-blow trail description that you get when you buy the book, at least from my understanding.
I used the free version, and was happy with it, even if it was out-dated and lacked some information. However, not once did I meet another person on the trail who was also using the free version. Everyone else bought the book, or used Wingfoot. So I don't think they're losing any money by offering a year-old edition for free on the Internet.
And if they were losing money on it, I'm sure they would stop the service.
Pokey2006
01-07-2007, 03:29
Correction: I just took a quick peek and I see they do have that blow-by-blow trail description...I don't recall having it last year, though.
Correction: I just took a quick peek and I see they do have that blow-by-blow trail description...I don't recall having it last year, though.
The online edition is also the latest edition, or will be, when 2007 gets uploaded in the next couple weeks.
fiddlehead
01-07-2007, 09:35
Living in a country where so much gets bootlegged,(Thailand) i've become accustomed to it and now think it's ok. Sure people copy my movie and it hurts my sales. Sure many people download music for free on the internet and enjoy great music that they might not have because of it.
Money is everything in America but it just may help some poor hiker to help plan his trip.
A guy named Jonathan Ley mapped the whole CDT and puts it out there for free! Most people who hike this trail download and use them. He's not complaining.
I say leave it (Companion) out there for free for planning purposes but anyone who thinks they can print this out and hike with it, will most likely find out that as soon as it gets wet, they won't be able to read anything and will have wished they bought the book.
ALDHA and the ATC has lots of money. many hikers don't
besides, would it be so bad if we had to hike a trail without knowing exactly what's in every town when we get there. where's the adventure?
My feelings are if ALDHA wants to raise more money, they should offer more, or do more, not just raise dues and Gathering fees.
One way would be to make it more easy to buy T-shirts, mugs, etc along with being able to pay dues and Gathering fees online. I've brought it up several times but no one wants to take the easy step forward.
ALDHA is a low key volunteer run organization. If someone feels strongly that something should be done, then they need to get actively involved with the organization. I'm sure it would be appreciated. ALDHA is what we make it. If no one steps forward, then it doesn't get done.
My feelings are if ALDHA wants to raise more money, they should offer more, or do more, not just raise dues and Gathering fees.
I think I tried to make that point.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-07-2007, 11:06
Maybe instead of looking at this from a fund-generation perspective, we should look at it from a goal accomplishment perspective. The stated goals of ALDHA are:
1) To represent and promote the welfare of the Appalachian long-distance hiking community;
2) To provide service in a cooperative spirit with other Appalachian hiking organizations;
3) To provide education on the use and preservation of Appalachian long-distance hiking trails;
4) To provide opportunities for interaction and camaraderie within the Appalachian long-distance hiking community.
Seems to me that providing a year old resource on the web free of charge would promote hiking on the AT by newcomers and eventually result in ALDHA having more members.
One thing that ALDHA might consider is promoting the Gathering a bit more aggressively among more casual hikers (weekend warriors). While I'm a life long hiker, I did not realize ALDHA existed until about a year ago and I attended my first Gathering as a result of hearing about it at this web site. Had I known about it earlier, I would have likely become a member earlier.
TJ aka Teej
01-07-2007, 11:45
Just to be clear: As always, the free online version will be the current edition, and will be prominently displayed on the Companion page of the ALDHA website as soon as available.
here's how that looked last year: http://web.archive.org/web/20060529170052/www.aldha.org/companyn.htm
I've voted against charging for access to the on-line Companion before at an ALDHA meeting, and I'll continue to support that idea.
As far as selling on Amazon, etc. - that's up to ATC, not ALDHA. ALDHA volunteers write the Companion, ATC publishes it.
....the ATC has lots of money. ....
That's simply not true. The Maine Appalachian Trail club was told Saturday that ATC didn't fill one of only two positions in the New England division, and is restricting services to maintaining clubs because the dollars aren't there. It takes real dollars to maintain a volunteer trail. and those dollars no longer cover all the needs.
Spirit Walker
01-07-2007, 15:13
Aldha just raised the membership dues last year. They have enough money - more than enough if they are giving it away to other organizations. The purpose of ALDHA is not to give money to other groups - let them raise their own money. The purpose of ALDHA is to hold the annual Gathering - that is how they support the long distance hiking community. They do that very well. The added membership revenue will perhaps give them a few more options in choosing venues for future Gatherings (i.e. paying for campsites and fees to the schools) - but adding money to the bank account to give away to other organizations doesn't make sense to me. ALDHA is supposed to serve their members - increasing fees to pay out to someone else isn't serving their members.
I seem to remember hearing that having the Companion online actually helps increase sales of the hard copy version. People like to see what they're getting. They do a couple of sections with the online version - then go and buy the hard copy when they see that it is much easier to use. Few thruhikers are going to print out the whole thing -
hopefulhiker
01-07-2007, 15:55
A downloaded the companion and used parts of it on the trail. I later became a lifetime member.. Information is useless if not shared..
Aldha just raised the membership dues last year. They have enough money - more than enough if they are giving it away to other organizations.
Ginny:
Do you think an expansion of the Endangered Services Campaign is in order?
It's an educational campaign that encourages good behavior on the trail and in towns.
Ginny:
Do you think an expansion of the Endangered Services Campaign is in order?
I don't think it would be worth a few thousand $$'s to try and change the behaviour of a dozen idiots that hike the trail each year. ALDHA can only do so much and for the most part, members allready exert peer pressure.
Before you said something about raising money but your only suggestion was to raise Gathering fees, which is basically money for nothing. I'd rather see an increase in sales, so atleast when someone spends their money they get something.
As it is, I can only belong to so many orgs. IMO, if anything they should start lowering their memberships fees to increase membership, not raise dues.
I would be in favor of increasing the cost for The Gathering if eastern trails would benefit from the revenue increase.
Before you said something about raising money but your only suggestion was to raise Gathering fees, which is basically money for nothing
Sly, that's actually not what I said. See above.
OK, but I think the scope is too big for ALDHA to handle. I was thinking within ALDHA itself. Besides, isn't that what the AHS is for?
Besides, isn't that what the AHS is for?
I would agree with that. I'm not really fixated on raising ALDHA's rates or fees. As a member and participant in The Gathering, it has been my observation that The Gathering is perhaps undervalued based upon the fee to attend. I have confidence in the ALDHA BoD, and trust their leadership.
skeeterbait
01-07-2007, 19:26
I don't think I can hit every point on this thread, but I think this covers the major ones.
1) The Companion: ALDHA produces the Companion as a service to hikers. ALDHA owns the copyright. The Companion is printed and sold by the ATC, so don't look for it for sale on the ALDHA website. (More on the website later.) For providing the Companion information to the ATC ALDHA receives $2,000 each year, which is intended to pay the expenses the field editors incur in gathering the information. Since very few of the filed editors have asked to be remitted, this is essentially a donation.
2) The website: Sly, you're cries have not gone unheard! We are looking at adding PayPal to the website, but at this point I can't give you a time frame (other than before Trail Days, I hope), or tell you whether it will include merchandise.
3) ALDHA is an all-volunteer organization. So when you say "they should do this or that" feel free to step up and volunteer. I can tell you right now that I'm the one handling the merchandise, so while it would be nice to see merchandise on the website remember whose unpaid time is being used up, either mine or someone elses. Feel free to increase my salary!
4) For those who are afraid about ALDHA donating dues money to other trail projects, the dues haven't floated the boat for some years. See the 2K from the Companion mentioned above. Plus merchandise sales. Plus money donations. I think most ALDHA members believe that giving back to the trail and the trail community is important. If you would like to bring this up as an item at the next business meeting I would hope and expect the membership to vote to continue making donations to appropriate projects.
5) For those who look past ALDHA's adopted four-fold purpose and say that our only purpose is to hold the Gathering, you could make my life very simple. No directory, no newsletters, no Companion, no long drives to Trail Days... etc.
Could probably do away with most of the meetings too!
Happy hiking!
skeeter
Hey Skeeter,
Before I sound ungrateful, if I haven't already, I know many times it's a thankless job but, I'd like to thank you and all the ALDHA board members and volunteers.
About the Paypal thing. I'm not trying to create more work for anyone but less and add to the coffer. If you think about it (and I'm sure you have) everything, or those online payments are delivered to your inbox. No more taking checks to the bank. Plus, with merchandise Paypal allows for printed mailing labels, with postage. For the most part all you'll have to do is package and drop in the nearest mailbox.
skeeterbait
01-07-2007, 21:22
Sly, PayPal is a good idea, especially to get memberships available on the website. It's just taking a bit to get it off the ground :).
I don't remember if you were the first one to bring it up, but it's been mentioned several times, and we do pay attention. We also all have real jobs, bosses, and other minor distractions on our time :eek:, so sometimes it takes a bit to get the engines turning...
skeeter
Aldha just raised the membership dues last year. They have enough money - more than enough if they are giving it away to other organizations. The purpose of ALDHA is not to give money to other groups - let them raise their own money. The purpose of ALDHA is to hold the annual Gathering - that is how they support the long distance hiking community. They do that very well. The added membership revenue will perhaps give them a few more options in choosing venues for future Gatherings (i.e. paying for campsites and fees to the schools) - but adding money to the bank account to give away to other organizations doesn't make sense to me. ALDHA is supposed to serve their members - increasing fees to pay out to someone else isn't serving their members.
I seem to remember hearing that having the Companion online actually helps increase sales of the hard copy version. People like to see what they're getting. They do a couple of sections with the online version - then go and buy the hard copy when they see that it is much easier to use. Few thruhikers are going to print out the whole thing -
I agree completely. ALDHA does a great job for what it was organized to do. It should not aspire to be a major player dealing with the trail. That only diverts efforts and interest away from the ATC -- which as long as it remains a viable organization -- has been and will be the group that deals with the overall complexities of the trail.
Those who think otherwise should first take the time to figure out all the real complications of running a 2,000+ mile trail with mostly volunteers, and what, if anything they may be willing to do to help.
I suspect that most honest hikers who are willing to work on a very complex problem will choose to work with and -- most importantly -- to work to improve ATC.
I don't think any of the alternatives look particularly good. Which is why I worry about the future of this most remarkable trail project.
Weary
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2007, 18:29
This is sorta aimed at Mowgli:
ALDHA should do more? Like what? You can't force people to go on work trips or do maintenance. You like the Endangered Services campaign, Mowgli? Well, so do I, but you can promote it all you want, but there will always be some people who will ignore it or even speak out against it.
In short, I'm not sure what else ALDHA should be doing. More publications would be a good thing. More stuff on their website for prospective hikers would, as well.
I dunno about raising the cost of the Gathering. At the Business Meeting this past October, someone suggested raising the annual membership fee by a few bucks and you'd think we were debating flag-burning or gay marriage or something. One prominent ALDHA old-timer was postitively apoplectic with rage about raising the fee; God knows what would have resulted if someone suggested doubling the cost of the Gathering.
In my opinion, ALDHA's a great organization, and in recent years, it's been getting even better. The addition of such top-notch folks as Bob Peoples, Shane O'Donnell (Jester from this website!) and Karine Kelleher (Blister Sister) has done, and will continue to do good things for the organization. The Companion effort, under the leadership of Mrs. Gorp, vastly improves every year. And the annual hiker Gathering itself, when put together by folks such as Stacy and Greg Boone; John O'Mahony, Bill O'Brien and others, is one of the most important events of the year for those interested in Long-Distance backpacking.
In short, I think this is a great organization, and I think everyone serious about long-distance backpacking should join it, and take an active part in what they do. (And for those of you who haven't done so, I think this holds true for the ATC as well!)
Anyway, if anyone's interested in what ALDHA's all about, check out www.aldha.org for more information.
Jack, someday when I have more time I hope to get involved more as an ALDHA volunteer. My tenure as an ALDHA member is brief - only 3 or 4 years. I recognize that there is a history, and that there are some fine folks helping to run this organization.
I do think that the Endangered Services Campaign is some of the best work that ALDHA does. If I was independently wealthy, I'd see if ALDHA would accept a major donation to print up posters for every trail town along the route of the AT - and consider funding an expansion of the campaign. But alas, I'm far from wealthy, and like most of my free time, my disposable income is already spoken for.
I hope I can make The Gathering next year. Wait, this year is next year already! I look forward to maybe spending more than 3 minutes chatting with you in '07. Is it planned for somewehere in PA? That was the scuttlebutt at Pipestem.
Jack Tarlin
01-08-2007, 19:26
In my above Post in which I mentioned some prominent ALDHA people, I forgot to mention Skeeter!!
I assure one and all that this was NOT a deliberate slight. He is absolutley one of the people that keps ALDHA and will coninue to be a great co-ordinator!
Mowgli:
As far as I know the Gathering will be in Gettysburg in '08 which I think will be great. It's a Central location, meaning it'll be easier for people to get there from all over; it's also a really extraordinary place to visit. I plan to get there a few days early in order to explore the town and Battlefield Park.
warren doyle
01-09-2007, 10:17
Dues: $7 a year
Gathering: $10 registration
On-line companion: free access if we have willing volunteers to do the work
no volunteers? no ALDHA Companion
No paid officers/board members
No central office
Retain and support ALDHA members/volunteers who can keep the organization 'folk' rather than 'professional'; 'kind' rather than 'mean-spirited'.
2007 Gathering planned for Gettysburg; 2008 Gathering (TBD).
Endangered Services Campaign is centered on hiker behavior and how it relates to hiker services (i.e., hostels, restaurants, etc.) in towns/communities on or near the trail which are frequented by most, but not all, long distance hikers. It was never intended to address one's behavior while hiking the actual trail. If it intends to move into this area, it needs to be challenged, questioned and resisted since this line of thinking would threaten the essential core of the freedom and simplicity inherent in long distance hiking.
Just got back from a week of contra dancing in West Virginia and three days of doing the high points in RI, CT, MA, NY and VT. Too rainy (and warm) to do enjoyable winter ascents/descents of the high points of NH and ME. Sledding down the black diamond Chin Clip ski trail off Mansfield was exhilarating!
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 10:31
dues are now $10 per year
warren doyle
01-09-2007, 11:01
I know Lone Wolf.
I was stating my opinions, not facts.
Sorry for the confusion.
Hope to chat with you soon.
I always enjoy our conversations.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 15:21
There are some who of course will accuse me of making a personal attack, but Mr. Doyle's post above demands a response:
The Endangered Services campaign was conceived as a way to educate hikers so they became aware that their behavior during their trips absolutley affected how other people (i.e. non-hikers) viewed the hiking communtity.
It's intent was to encourage proper behavior by hikers, primarily in towns, hostels, and in other places where they encountered non-hikers. But for Mr. Doyle to pretend that this doesn't apply to behavior on the the actual Trail itself is ridiculous, and obviously is a way to provide "cover" and excuses for Mr. Doyle's own past behavior on the Trail, where he has admitted defrauding businesses of money, refusing to pay user/gate fees on private roads, etc.
The fact that much of Mr. Doyle's misbehavior took place on the Trail and not in town is irrelevant. The fact remains that Mr. Doyle, a well-known hiker and the actual founder of ALDHA has been outspoken in his criticism of the Endangered Services campaign and has done a great deal of harm to it. After all, if ALDHA's founder has no use for such efforts and publicly dis-respects such efforts, then why should they apply to anyone else?
In short, he's set a horrible example on this issue.
I could also add that much of Doyle's mis-behavior while hiking DOES NOT only take place on the Trail, such as his begging for food in restaurants, ripping off movie theater owners, leading groups that dis-respect Trail hostels and other hiker guests, etc., but there's no point in re-hashing this. If he wishes to minimize or mis-represent his past history, there's nothing I can do about it.
In short, his post above is deceptive and wrong. When people talk about the "freedom and simplicity inherent in long-distance hiking" they are not talking about dis-respect and theft. Hikers have an obligation to behave in a way that does NOT negatively affect other hikers or the hiking community, and this applies to the Trail as well as to town.
Lastly, as to Mr. Doyle's peevishness over the new sort of leadership ALDHA has obtained, it's very simple: He's upset because he's no longer part of it, and in fact, has withdrawn from active participation in recent ALDHA events.
The fact that he no longer takes a leading role in the organization is due for two main reasons: First, it was his personal choice to avoid participating in ALDHA events. Secondly, when it comes to participating as an elected leader of the organization, well this was due to illness.
The good "folk" who make up the membership got sick of him.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 15:40
Incidentally, I just took a moment and re-read Bill O'Brien's excellent essay on the history of the Endangered Services Campaign, which is permanently posted on the ALDHA website. (It was written by Bill, along with contributions from such ALDHA stalwarts as Monica Cook, Dania Egedi, Noel DeCavalcante, Al Sochard, and Cindy Ross). In the essay, it specifically says that proper behavior is expected ON THE TRAIL as well as in town situations.
So Mr. Doyle's contention about it only applying to towns and hostels and not to the actual Trail is false.
I wonder if he ever actually read what was in this essay before deciding to ignore it.
TJ aka Teej
01-09-2007, 15:58
The ALDHA Hike in Harmony poster at Baxter State Park's AT Information Kiosk: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=14220&catid=member&imageuser=314
The ALDHA Endangered Services Campaign poster, displayed on the same kiosk.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=14219&catid=member&imageuser=314
Isn't it nice to see cooperation between ALDHA and Baxter State Park?
TJ aka Teej
01-09-2007, 16:01
So Mr. Doyle's contention about it only applying to towns and hostels and not to the actual Trail is false.
"Respect the rights of others on and off the Trail."
It's pretty clear to all who care to read it.
TJ aka Teej
01-09-2007, 16:49
Retain and support ALDHA members/volunteers who can keep the organization 'folk' rather than 'professional'; 'kind' rather than 'mean-spirited'.
May I be the first (in this thread) to extend my thanks and congratulations to the ALDHA membership who have elected an outstanding leadership group made up of very kind folks and wonderful people! The future looks bright! Way to go, ALDHA!!:sun
Doesn't seem like a personal attack to me. I think you stuck to the core issue of whether the Endangered Services Campaign applies to hiker behavior in town or trail, and why, pretty well.
There are some who of course will accuse me of making a personal attack, but Mr. Doyle's post above demands a response:
The Endangered Services campaign was conceived as a way to educate hikers so they became aware that their behavior during their trips absolutley affected how other people (i.e. non-hikers) viewed the hiking communtity.
It's intent was to encourage proper behavior by hikers, primarily in towns, hostels, and in other places where they encountered non-hikers. But for Mr. Doyle to pretend that this doesn't apply to behavior on the the actual Trail itself is ridiculous, and obviously is a way to provide "cover" and excuses for Mr. Doyle's own past behavior on the Trail, where he has admitted defrauding businesses of money, refusing to pay user/gate fees on private roads, etc.
The fact that much of Mr. Doyle's misbehavior took place on the Trail and not in town is irrelevant. The fact remains that Mr. Doyle, a well-known hiker and the actual founder of ALDHA has been outspoken in his criticism of the Endangered Services campaign and has done a great deal of harm to it. After all, if ALDHA's founder has no use for such efforts and publicly dis-respects such efforts, then why should they apply to anyone else?
In short, he's set a horrible example on this issue.
I could also add that much of Doyle's mis-behavior while hiking DOES NOT only take place on the Trail, such as his begging for food in restaurants, ripping off movie theater owners, leading groups that dis-respect Trail hostels and other hiker guests, etc., but there's no point in re-hashing this. If he wishes to minimize or mis-represent his past history, there's nothing I can do about it.
In short, his post above is deceptive and wrong. When people talk about the "freedom and simplicity inherent in long-distance hiking" they are not talking about dis-respect and theft. Hikers have an obligation to behave in a way that does NOT negatively affect other hikers or the hiking community, and this applies to the Trail as well as to town.
Lastly, as to Mr. Doyle's peevishness over the new sort of leadership ALDHA has obtained, it's very simple: He's upset because he's no longer part of it, and in fact, has withdrawn from active participation in recent ALDHA events.
The fact that he no longer takes a leading role in the organization is due for two main reasons: First, it was his personal choice to avoid participating in ALDHA events. Secondly, when it comes to participating as an elected leader of the organization, well this was due to illness.
The good "folk" who make up the membership got sick of him.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 20:11
Thanx Teej, for agreeing with me about the great direction ALDHA is taking. And the cool thing, Teej, is that some of the newer leaders of the organization are either Whiteblaze members, or are friends of ours: In recent years, Bob Peoples of Kincora hostel has been named to the Aldha Board (with a ridiculpously high vote total, by the way); Jester2000 (Shane O'Donnell) who is about the finest person I know, and Karine Kellher, ("Blister Sister") who when she's not doing things like finishing up hiking's Triple Crown, spends her free time doing stuff like helping with the Companion; planning ALDHA events; feeding hikers by the hundreds, and all sorts of other stuff.
How anyone could find anything wrong with the people that make ALDHA work so well these days....well this escapes me. I can't help but feel that the only people who would presume to fault the organization's leadership, or the people who run its affairs and events are the folks who no longer engage in these activities, or are no longer permitted to have input.
Their petulant criticism, which is happily very limited, is nothing but jealousy and pettiness.
The "new" ALDHA is doing just fine.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 20:16
Their petulant criticism, which is happily very limited, is nothing but jealousy and pettiness.
Works both ways, Jack. BTW, Warren never talks s**t about you.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 20:27
On the contrary, Wolf, you're much mistaken.
I'll PM you on this one, but I assure you, you're wrong.
And in any case, Wolf, I started this thread. It's about ALDHA and ALDHA policies. Mr. Doyle contributed to the thread. As the person who initiated the dialogue, I have every right to comment on what he said.
But the fact remains, Wolf, and you're welcome to disagree, that for the person who founded a well known-hiking organization to do everything in his power to submarine and undermine a program whose only goal was to educate hikers about behaving in a respectful way that didn't impact other people....well, Wolf, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think this educational campaign was a bad idea.
Do you?
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 20:29
don't pm me. i won't answer. it's just the same old spiel.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 20:38
Fine.
You accuse me of something.
I tell you you're mistaken, but it's not worth debating in public.
I volunteer to tell you all about it so you're better informed; you say you're not interested.
Well if you're not interested in dialogue, then don't comment here at all, OK? Cuz if you're not willing to debate your posts, and moreover, not even willing to LOOK at what someone else has written in reply to what you've said, it doesn't do much for your arguments, Ok?
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 20:40
i'm willing to bet more agree with me than with you.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 20:42
But back to the subject, Wolf:
Do YOU think the Endangered Services campaign is a good idea?
Or is it a bad one?
Do YOU think people should be able to do whatever they please while on a hike?
Or do you think there are limits and that they need to consider others?
Please feel free to tell us.
Becuase if your constant defense of Mr. Doyle on this website means that you agree with him on this subject , then you should have the backbone to say so.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 20:47
But back to the subject, Wolf:
Do YOU think the Endangered Services campaign is a good idea?
Becuase if your constant defense of Mr. Doyle on this website means that you agree with him on this subject , then you should have the backbone to say so.
I think it's a fine idea but it doesn't work. I defend the fact that warren doesn't slam you on this site or in my presence. For the record i have more ***n backbone than most.
I can't speak for Warren, but perhaps its the focus of the campaign he questioned?
My guess is that Warren would agree that promoting sobriety in town and at hiker functions is a good idea. And that most of the problems over the years with services being denied to hikers have been alchohol related.
Or not.
Question for Jack: Would that be a good focus given the relationship between alcohol and lost services along the AT?
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 20:52
Alcohol abuse is the #1 biggest problem off trail.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 21:01
It's certainly a factor.
But whether that's why Warren has a beef with the E.S. campaign has nothing to do with alcohol or anything else, Rick, and you well know it. His antipathy towards the E.S. campaign has nothing to do with it's "focus." But he sure doesn't like it much when a discussion of the E.S. campaign focuses on HIM, and neither do his little battallion of perpetual apologists.
It has more to do with his right to do as he pleases on the Trail without regard to anyone else. He seems to think that any infringement on this is somehow an attack on his "rights". Which is nonsense. If everyone did whatever they please on the Trail, it's be a mess.
I really don't enjoy seeing this thread turn into a discussion of the lamentable and unlamented Warren Doyle. He's been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere.
I respectfully suggest that we rerurn to the original topic I first presented, which was ALDHA, the Thru-Hiker's Companion, the dissemination of knowledge/information, and whether or not people should be expected to pay for this service.
If people want to discuss Mr. Doyle, or alcohol on the Trail, or any other damned thing, I suggest they initiate their own thread in order to do so.
Thanks!
discussion of the E.S. campaign focuses on HIM
Only when the obsessed make that their mission.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 21:07
If people want to discuss Mr. Doyle, or alcohol on the Trail, or any other damned thing, I suggest they initiate their own thread in order to do so.
guess you shoulda posted this in the straight forward forum, huh?:cool:
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 21:23
Actually, Rick, your comment about "obsession" is way outta line.
The matter of Mr. Doyle and the Endangered Services campaign hadn't even been discussed in this thread.....until Mr. Doyle himself initiated the subject in his Post #61, in which he defended his right to ignore it.
Any subsequent discussion of Doyle as relating to the ALDHA E.S. campaign came about AFTER Doyle himself commented on the subject, so if other people wish to reply to Mr. Doyle on this matter, or point out that they disagree with him, this is hardly obsessive. Or is Rick suggesting that Doyle somehow merits a pass, and that he can make comments without fear or worry of being questioned or contradicted?
And to Wolf, no, I'm glad the thread is where it is. My request that we get back on topic was merely a polite suggestion that would hopefully improve the level of discussion on the thread. It was merely a polite suggestion.
Sorry you evidently have a problem with this.
I wasn't aware it was that big a deal, or that I was asking something so difficult.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 21:30
So my question to Whiteblazers is this: Should people that want this information be able to get it for free, or is it more proper that they pay for it, thus benefitting the two non-profit (and very cash-hungry!!) non-profit organizations that provide it? In other words, is it in ALDHA's and ATC's best interest to give this data away, or should people that want it be compelled to purchase the actual book?
What do you guys think?
If both the cash hungry orgs. are giving the info for free, then it seems to me they need new leadership. why buy a companion if you can get it off the net for free. no brainer.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 21:37
That's exactly my point, and my thanx for Wolf for returning to it!
But I don't necessarily think the groups in question need new leadership. I think their present leadership is fine. I merely question the wisdom of THIS particular policy question, which in my opinion, is dubious.
A great many folks aren't going to pay for something they can find elsehwere for free, and Wolf has cut entirely to the crux of the matter.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 21:44
ATC is all about the actual trail. Not about people who actually hike on the AT. Hikers aren't a priority. ALDHA is all about the hikers. ALDHA giving away info makes sense.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 21:52
Gotta disagree with Wolf on this one.
I can think of all sorts of folks who are the heart and soul of the ATC who are VERY serious hikers. I'm thinking of people like former thru-hiker Laurie Potteiger, who has given out more info on the A.T. to more people over the last ten years than just about anyone else. Or Hawk Metheny, a former thru-hiker who spent years helping maintain the trail in New Hampshire and is now, I believe, on the ATC Board of Directors. Or people like former thru-hiker Ray "Walkin Home" Ronan who recently edited the excellent Maine Map/Guide set.
To say that the ATC isn't about hikers is a bit off-base. I know all sorts of folks who are part of the ATC who do stuff for hikers just about every single day of their lives.
Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 21:56
You weren't around during the Pa. murders in 90. That's all I'm gonna say. and yes, Laurie is a liason between us and them. bottom line. she's more us than them.
Jack Tarlin
01-09-2007, 22:06
Nope, I wasn't around in the Trail in 1990.
But going back in history doesn't really further your argument.
Let's go back further:
Myron Avery was the guy most responsible for getting the Trail built. He founded the Maine A.T. Club and was Chairman of the ATC for 20 years. Oh, he was also the first persent credited with hiking the Trail in its entirety.
For Wolf to say that the ATC isn't about folks who actually hike the Trail is kind of a wild thing to say......were Avery here, he'd certainly disagree. The ATC was FOUNDED by folks who actually hiked the Trail, as well as conceived it and built it. To say they don't care about hikers based on one unfortunate incident that took place almost two decades ago is, in my opinion, a dis-ervice to a very fine organization.
Alligator
01-09-2007, 22:10
I think most thrus will just buy it or not. I don't suspect they will print it out themselves. I could be mistaken. Is this something seen frequently among thrus, the entire Companion printed out?
The couple of times I actually pulled the information from the Companion and printed it, I ended up cutting out a lot of white space. I think it would be fairly heavy unless totally trimmed, and probably close to twice the weight because it doesn't print well to both sides. It seems like such a small gain to print the whole thing out.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 22:16
Wolf does make a good point. ATC is all about conservation and ALDHA is all about hikers. ATC makes its decisions based on what it feels is best for the trail not for long-distance hikers. It is only natural for long-distance hikers to feel more inclined to help out ALDHA with time and money and not to feel the same about the ATC.
I think most thrus will just buy it or not. I don't suspect they will print it out themselves. I could be mistaken. Is this something seen frequently among thrus, the entire Companion printed out?
The couple of times I actually pulled the information from the Companion and printed it, I ended up cutting out a lot of white space. I think it would be fairly heavy unless totally trimmed, and probably close to twice the weight because it doesn't print well to both sides. It seems like such a small gain to print the whole thing out.
I once printed out just the short section I was hiking, and used the blank backside for my journal. Love it when something has a dual purpose. My sections since have been too long to print out the pages. I can't imagine printing the whole thing out to do a thru.
I just went to the ALDHA website and couldn't find the FREE copy. Someone asked me for Elmer's number - so I ended up having to Google it. Is this whole thread a moot point, or is the free version available somewhere I didn't look?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 22:33
http://www.aldha.org/comp_pdf.htm
It is hard to find, but it is there.
Thanks. I still encourage folks to purchase the Companion.
looks to me as if the thread is moot
Alligator
01-09-2007, 22:38
Just to be clear: As always, the free online version will be the current edition, and will be prominently displayed on the Companion page of the ALDHA website as soon as available.
here's how that looked last year: http://web.archive.org/web/20060529170052/www.aldha.org/companyn.htm
...
I once printed out just the short section I was hiking, and used the blank backside for my journal. Love it when something has a dual purpose. My sections since have been too long to print out the pages. I can't imagine printing the whole thing out to do a thru.
Good idea Lilredmg for journalers.
ATC is all about the actual trail. Not about people who actually hike on the AT. Hikers aren't a priority. ALDHA is all about the hikers. ALDHA giving away info makes sense.
HMMM.I hear a lot of hikers either complaining about the trail, or praising the trail, which makes me think hikers think the trail is important.
The trail is an ATC priority because hikers care about the trail. It's a job someone has to do. ATC built the trail, has fought for the trail and continues to do so. The trail would gradually disappear as a maintained footpath without ATC.
Weary
guess you shoulda posted this in the straight forward forum, huh?:cool:
We'd have half the messages deleted by now. ;)
TJ aka Teej
01-10-2007, 08:55
I think most thrus will just buy it or not.
Probably, most thrus seem to want a book, either ours, the DataBook, or Wingy's. There are more people than just thrus who use the online version though. Stay Home Support crews, service providers, section hikers, the curious, the dreamers and the planners. All folks who probably wouldn't buy or need a whole book in the first place, but who get a chance to see what the Companion's all about. It's a good thing the info's made available for free to them.
I use the online edition to print out the listings for my service providers. After the Companion comes out I mail everyone I list a copy of their page along with a thank-you note, a guesstimate of when I'll next be by in person, and the business cards I had made up with my contact info.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-10-2007, 09:52
Maybe I should rephrase what I said earlier - the ATC is all about a single trail - the AT - and not about AT long-distance hikers or meeting their needs (see some of the threads about the hut system and other accommodations that the ATC supports / provides). ALDHA is all about hiker's needs and increasingly not just about those hiking the AT. The AT is but one trail I care about saving and I put my $$$ into organizations that care about preserving all wilderness areas - not just the ones in the eastern US along the AT corridor.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 09:58
the ATC is all about a single trail - the AT - and not about AT long-distance hikers or meeting their needs
That's what I was saying too.
Maybe I should rephrase what I said earlier - the ATC is all about a single trail - the AT - and not about AT long-distance hikers or meeting their needs (see some of the threads about the hut system and other accommodations that the ATC supports / provides)..
Well, they do publish the databook, maps, guides and the Companion. They also have a shuttle list and give out 2000-miler patch and certificates. The Huts is a AMC thing
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-10-2007, 12:44
Feel free to educate me about the system.... I'm listening....
Feel free to educate me about the system.... I'm listening....
In a nutshell, as far as I'm concerned: ATC manages the Trail itself. ALDHA is an organization of/by/for Appalachian long distance hikers. ALDHA has nice downloadable (PDF) trail guides. ATC has a bookstore and nice calendars, maps, guides, patches, videos, coffee cups, t-shirts, etc etc. :)
ATC is (by far) the more critical of the two organizations in terms of the trail's physical existence. But ATC is still mostly a thin "umbrella" organization on top of a bunch of local clubs (like MATC, AMC, PATC, GMC, etc.) that do the real work (and mostly with volunteers.)
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 19:18
The work that the ATC staff performs is very real indeed, Terrapin, and they don't get paid much for doing it. This includes, but is certainly not limited to such things as providing Informational Services to the public and press; to lobby government officials and agencies; to work in land preservation and acquisition; to work in fund-raising; to edit, up-date, and publish maps, guidebooks, and other material on the Trail; to create and provide educational literature and material on the Trail; and all sorts of other things.
Your post implying that they do little "real" work is an insult to a lot of very good people you evidently know very little about.
Your post implying that they do little "real" work is an insult to a lot of very good people you evidently know very little about.
Jack, why don't you just put me on "ignore" or leave your umbrage at the door. I meant no insult to ATC or anyone else. I've been an ATC member for the last 18 years, and have sent many bundles of cash (well above "dues") their way over the years.
While we're at it, what is ATC's formal staffing, and what is the combined staffing and volunteer membership of the many organizations under its umbrella? That was the only point I was making.
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 19:42
Untwist your knickers, pal, if anyone is feeling "umbrage", it's you.
All I did was quote you.
You implied that the "real" work on the Trail was done by folks other than the ATC.
Actually, you didn't merely imply this. You pretty much said it.
If you don't want to be taken to task for saying stupid things, then don't say 'em, eh?
Oh, and in regards to your question about how the ATC is staffed, how many people they've got, etc. well I think it's pretty damned amusing that you state that they don't do any real work, and then two minutes later you're asking questions about who works for them and how many employees they have.
In other words, you acknowledge that you don't really know anything about the number of folks who work for the ATC or what they do.....but you still feel that it's OK to say they don't do much "real" work.
Pretty silly. And pretty butt-ignorant, too.
But you're dead right about at least one thing: Comments as foolish as yours should most likely be ignored. My thanks for the suggestion.
Umm, Jack. What part of
ATC is (by far) the more critical of the two organizations in terms of the trail's physical existence.
... don't you understand?
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 19:48
Sorry, can't help you out. Somebody told me the wisest thing to do with your posts was to ignore them.
See ya.
warren doyle
01-10-2007, 19:54
It's a reading comprehension thing.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 19:57
Umm, Jack. What part of
ATC is (by far) the more critical of the two organizations in terms of the trail's physical existence.
... don't you understand?
I comprehend that. It's truth.
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 20:01
Reading comprehension problems, Mr. Doyle?
Sorta like yours when you see a sign on a gated road indicating that one is on Private Property and that there's a fee required to use the service?
Or when a State Park posts its rules and regulations allover the place and you somehow manage to ignore them?
Or when a Movie Theater ticket says "Good for ONE adult admission."
Do you mean reading comp problems like that, Bozo?
Spare me, clown.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:03
BOZO the CLOWN!:banana :banana :banana
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 20:04
Man that was quick, Wolf.
One would think you guys were in the same hotel room or something. :D
TJ aka Teej
01-10-2007, 20:10
It's a reading comprehension thing.
Are you saying you're having trouble comprehending the ALDHA Endangered Services campaign, or that you can read at grade level and you're just pretending you can't?
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:11
Man that was quick, Wolf.
One would think you guys were in the same hotel room or something. :D
Huh? I just got back from Dot's and logged on. What you talkin' about Willis?
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:13
Are you saying you're having trouble comprehending the ALDHA Endangered Services campaign, or that you can read at grade level and you're just pretending you can't?
The "campaign" is very ineffective. It amounts to small posters posted sporadically telling hikers how to act.
warren doyle
01-10-2007, 20:14
Lone Wolf,
I got that one too!!
That's about the fourth or fifth time I have been associated with Bozo the Clown on Whiteblaze. Have I missed my calling?
Maybe my Dad was right when he said to me (on several occasions), "You know Warren, every day isn't a circus day, you know Warren!"
Oh, by the way, can you put a 'Do not Disturb' sign on his door?
Sometimes full comprehension prevents one from being blindly obedient and unquestioning.
Wolf,
I think trail icons like you and Warren can provide leadership by example.
Rick
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:18
Wolf,
I think trail icons like you and Warren can provide leadership by example.
Rick
Whoa. Back up. I ain't no icon, whatever that is. I'm a lone wolf. Leader of 1.
warren doyle
01-10-2007, 20:21
on going uphill (fighting gravity):
"I think icon, I think icon."
I was just setting up a joke.
Punch line was "A younger woman". But since I don't know you well enough, I will retract and retrench.
But you are Icons.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:26
I was just setting up a joke.
Punch line was "A younger woman". But since I don't know you well enough, I will retract and retrench.
But you are Icons.
ok. i'm slow dude. :D warren has me beat. gypsy is only 18 years less than i.
The "campaign" is very ineffective. It amounts to small posters posted sporadically telling hikers how to act.
Signs do raise consciousness, but some are taking it more seriously. Like representatives going into town and talking to businesses and residents about problems and then trying to fix them in a creative manner, offering suggestions to those businesses on how to set things up to avoid common hiker problems while still taking in hiker business. Pro-active like. Jester had some good ideas on this topic last I spoke to him.
Jack Tarlin
01-10-2007, 20:45
Query to Wolf:
If the campaign is indeed ineffective, do you think this might have anything to do with well-known people in the hiking community publicly speaking against it and doing their best to undermine it?
And do think it might be more effective if this were not the case? :-?
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:50
Query to Wolf:
If the campaign is indeed ineffective, do you think this might have anything to do with well-known people in the hiking community publicly speaking against it and doing their best to undermine it?
And do think it might be more effective if this were not the case? :-?
Nope. Has nothing to do with me or Warren or anybody else. It's about marketing. 99.9% of folks who start a thru-hike haven't a clue what the ESC is. And the majority of them have no idea what ALDHA is. That simple.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-10-2007, 22:03
Wolf is right. Very few people who don't participate in this forum have ever heard of ALDHA. I've been to a gathering and this is the first I've heard of ESC. The word isn't getting out.
I knew about (and was a member of) ATC many years before I knew of ALDHA. I remember that on Trailplace, Wingy censored all posts referring to ALDHA. What a dork.
If you're a member of ALDHA and have attended the Gathering and the meetings you should know. It's sad there even needs to be a ESC.... but I think for the most part ALDHA members know how to behave themselves, on and off the trail.
I just joined ALDHA a few months ago and this is the first I have heard about it. IMO most people know how to behave themselves anywhere they are at.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 22:26
If you're a member of ALDHA and have attended the Gathering and the meetings you should know. It's sad there even needs to be a ESC.... but I think for the most part ALDHA members know how to behave themselves, on and off the trail.
there is no need for an ESC.
Johnny Swank
01-10-2007, 22:28
ALDHA members are a vast minority of the vast minority of hikers getting on the trail each year. Now what to do concerning ESC? Heck if I know. Every year more hostels close due to stupid behavior by thru-hikers. At some point, a lot of those services are going to go away, IMO.
Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 22:38
ALDHA members are a vast minority of the vast minority of hikers getting on the trail each year. Now what to do concerning ESC? Heck if I know. Every year more hostels close due to stupid behavior by thru-hikers. At some point, a lot of those services are going to go away, IMO.
Hostels closed long before ESC, during ESC and will continue to close with ESC. If the ATC really cared about hikers they would push this to every hiker that inquires about an extended trip on the AT.
At some point, a lot of those services are going to go away, IMO.
They come and they go. Some stuff you might take for granted in 2007 wasn't there 15, 20, 25 years ago. Kincorra? Miss Janet's? Dan Quinn's barn? I can't tell you how thrilled I am that Elmer's still in business in Hot Springs. Bully for him. He's had a good product for a long, long time.
(I've got to say I don't know the "start dates" of the services I just cited -- but except for Elmer's, I sure don't remember them from the 1990 version of the trail.)
I'm not excusing bad hiker behavior, by the way... a different matter.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-10-2007, 23:21
Sly, I didn't go to the business meeting at the gathering (after many years in AA, business meetings are something I avoid - too darn much drama). I did attend all the presentations in the ballroom and a lot of workshops - never heard about ESC.
As for how to behave - the only places that have thrown me out for bad behavior (at least since I've been sober) were Trailplace and Practical Backpacking.
Long distance hikers gone wild; damn, I would have hoped that they could have been satisfied with Myrtle Beach.:D
Fannypack
01-11-2007, 13:58
Hostels closed long before ESC, during ESC and will continue to close with ESC. If the ATC really cared about hikers they would push this to every hiker that inquires about an extended trip on the AT.
I think u make a good point here and u definitely are right about the problems on the trail will exist with or w/o the Endangered Services Campaign aka ESC but sometimes we need to stand up for what we believe in right (in this case helpful to/for future hikers). (btw, thx LW for the more than one sentence/phrase response)
The ATC's primary purpose (as mentioned on this site) seems to be to protect the trail and not to educate or influence hikers. It is a fact that the ATC and all the trail maintaining clubs have many more members than ALDHA so it would seem obvious that more hikers could be reached with the ESC msg (http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htm) (note this msg was "created" in 1990) thru these organizations.
ESC Poster (http://www.aldha.org/newsletr/ethics.pdf)
FYI: ALDHA motions (http://www.aldha.org/motions.htm) (see 2004 for ESC motion)
If, in fact, the ESC is important to any of us, it would seem that we may have to join our local AT maintaining club and introduce the ESC to the membership and try to educate the membership to its importance/relevance.
Do not forget LNT (http://www.lnt.org/) , it could also be presented/emphasized to our local clubs.
I just joined ALDHA a few months ago and this is the first I have heard about it. IMO most people know how to behave themselves anywhere they are at.
Yes, most people know how to behave. But all it takes is a few inconsiderate individuals to ruin things for everyone. The ESC is an attempt to remedy this. If you have a good idea for improving the program, or want to help get the message out, then let Stacy or Jester know. I'm sure they would appreciate the help. Don't just bitch on Whiteblaze that ESC doesn't do anything.
Lone Wolf
01-11-2007, 19:31
Yes, most people know how to behave. But all it takes is a few inconsiderate individuals to ruin things for everyone. The ESC is an attempt to remedy this. If you have a good idea for improving the program, or want to help get the message out, then let Stacy or Jester know. I'm sure they would appreciate the help. Don't just bitch on Whiteblaze that ESC doesn't do anything.
Short of posting a volunteer at every trailhead going into a town and lecturing each and every hiker on how to behave, there's not much more that can be done. That amounts to babysitting. Who's bitching?
Jester2000
01-14-2007, 23:24
ATC is all about conservation and ALDHA is all about hikers. ATC makes its decisions based on what it feels is best for the trail not for long-distance hikers. It is only natural for long-distance hikers to feel more inclined to help out ALDHA with time and money and not to feel the same about the ATC.
I feel that both are important, and both are worth being a part of. Certainly the ATC is about conservation, but we must always keep in mind that they answer to a number of different kinds of constituents, and long distance hikers are a small, small minority in the overall hiking community. Sometimes we forget this, and assume that the trail is there and being protected and maintained just for us.
When discussing the concept of Trail Magic, for example, it can be hard for many of us to understand why a person out for a weekend wouldn't want to see a cooler on the trail out in the woods, even if it was maintained. Most of the hikers we associate with like the idea. But most of the people we associate with are long distance people. Similarly, it can be difficult for a member of a local club to understand why a cooler might be a godsend to someone who has just done a 26 mile day through farmers' fields in July, because they would never do that hike. Wouldn't interest them.
The point here is that if ATC's sole purpose was taking care of the needs of long distance hikers, there wouldn't really be a need for ALDHA.
I like the fact that ATC (at least recently) takes ALDHA seriously and is making an effort to take our needs into consideration when making decisions about the trail. It's nice to see cooperation like that.
I'll remain a member of both, and I will continue to cooperate with myself.
TJ aka Teej
01-14-2007, 23:41
...I will continue to cooperate with myself.
Ah, but consider how much the alternative would entertain your shelter mates!
:D
Getting back to the original question, of should the downloadable Companion have a cost, first, it does have real value: I was able to extract the tables, put them into a spreadsheet, and make calculations as to the steepness of the segments and the overall elevation gain.
Second, it would be entirely appropriate to ask for donations for it. But charging for it is problematic: some people might download it to see if they should spend money buying the paper edition; for them, it's not worth paying for, and the downloadable version lets them see before buying.
Third, this and the paper edition seem to be most useful for different purposes. I'd carry the paper one with me, and use the electronic version for planning. Other people might choose a different approach.
Jester2000
01-18-2007, 18:55
Actually, "cooperate with myself" is a euphemism. And I don't do it in a shelter with other people around.
I think the way Froggy describes using the two forms of the companion is one of the ideas behind offering it online. It seems like it would be a hassle to print it all off the computer instead of just buying it to carry. And while it's great for planning, it really comes in handy on the trail.
The actual book is not prohibitively expensive, and any cheapskates who print it out for free are probably just nickel and diming themselves to death (cost of paper, ink, and your time).
Now, if you truly CAN'T afford to buy a companion, then. . .where did you get the money for that computer again?
Keep it free... or not?
I would think section hikers are more likely to download only sections of the online edition. It just would be not be worth the $15 in time, ink, and paper for a thru-hiker to print it out.
How much is a section worth? I don't know and haven't made up my mind on this...
I've been section hiking lately. I bought the companion, but found the ability to download and print out the pertinent sections to be a great planning aid. I could print it out then mark it up with notes, highlights etc. If I changed my plan, could just print out new copy and start over. Keep the free download.
If ALDHA/ATC reach a point when the sales are not covering the costs, perhaps a system where the online version is password protected and is available after purchasing the hard copy.