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Socrates
01-08-2007, 05:48
I was just looking at some wildlife photos some had posted. One was of a dead mouse with what looked like a beeper for a backpack and a stick holding its lifeless body up. Another was of about 6 or 7 dead mice from a shelter lined up on a log.
It hadn't even crossed my mind till I saw those pics, but am I going to encounter this on the trail? I own a Glock and believe in self defense, but against mice? I respect hunting and fishing, but mice? If a bee stings you, kill it, but mice?
I'm easy to get along with, but I'm known for letting others know what I think and there's nothing that boils my blood more than needlessly killing an animal. It is NOT going to happen while I'm around.
Am I going to end up needing to camp away in the woods? Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we were out there to be WITH nature? What's the normal attitude out there?
~ Socrates

mindi
01-08-2007, 06:25
I've read a lot on here about people killing shelter mice. That's one of many reasons why I plan to avoid shelters unless absolutely necessary. I'm hoping that if I have to stay in one that I can convince others to refrain from doing such a thing in my presence. It really bothers me that it's such an accepted thing.

Mindi

rafe
01-08-2007, 08:45
It hadn't even crossed my mind till I saw those pics, but am I going to encounter this on the trail? I own a Glock and believe in self defense, but against mice? I respect hunting and fishing, but mice? If a bee stings you, kill it, but mice?


Hmm. I don't own a Glock, but I own and use mouse traps, and have personally been responsible for the deaths of numerous mice. My conscience is clear. I have not, as of yet, taken mouse traps on a hike -- but I've heard of others who have.

fiddlehead
01-08-2007, 08:57
Some shelters have 100's of mice at them. IT is not natural. I don't like playing God at all in these matters but have been known to set a trap or two.
After reading your post, you are probably best off staying away from them. (lots of evil things go on at shelters)

Socrates
01-08-2007, 09:02
I understand them in a home environment. I even helped my friend set a few. But in the woods? Seems extreme and futile. If mother nature bugs a person that bad, they shouldn't be hiking. My dad runs a hotel and when I was younger, every time I saw a mouse trap or glue trap, I'd sabotage it. Even set a few mice free in the grass. I'd do the same in shelters.

K0OPG
01-08-2007, 09:03
when you can't sleep because they are crawling over you sleeping bag, your face and head, and eating holes in you backpack and food bag and craping in or on you and you sleeping gear you may change your mind about killing mickey or minnie. Hantivirus?!?

rafe
01-08-2007, 09:07
I understand them in a home environment. I even helped my friend set a few. But in the woods? Seems extreme and futile. If mother nature bugs a person that bad, they shouldn't be hiking. My dad runs a hotel and when I was younger, every time I saw a mouse trap or glue trap, I'd sabotage it. Even set a few mice free in the grass. I'd do the same in shelters.

This is why you carry a tent. During heavy hiking season, shelters have mice, and mice are a nuisance. The mice are there mostly because of sloppy hikers. Go back to that same shelter off-season and the mice are gone.

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 09:20
I was just looking at some wildlife photos some had posted. One was of a dead mouse with what looked like a beeper for a backpack and a stick holding its lifeless body up. Another was of about 6 or 7 dead mice from a shelter lined up on a log.
It hadn't even crossed my mind till I saw those pics, but am I going to encounter this on the trail? I own a Glock and believe in self defense, but against mice? I respect hunting and fishing, but mice? If a bee stings you, kill it, but mice?
I'm easy to get along with, but I'm known for letting others know what I think and there's nothing that boils my blood more than needlessly killing an animal. It is NOT going to happen while I'm around.
Am I going to end up needing to camp away in the woods? Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we were out there to be WITH nature? What's the normal attitude out there?
~ Socrates

Use the Glock on the mice. :)

KG4FAM
01-08-2007, 09:21
I understand them in a home environment. I even helped my friend set a few.
The shelters are not much different than a home environment. They are both made by man and not natural so the effect that a home will have is the same effect that a shelter will have. If you have a messy kitchen at home you will have mice and if hikers are messy at the shelters you will have mice.

Hammock Hanger
01-08-2007, 09:26
This is why you carry a tent. During heavy hiking season, shelters have mice, and mice are a nuisance. The mice are there mostly because of sloppy hikers. Go back to that same shelter off-season and the mice are gone.


I agree that I feel that the shelters seem to be extra lively during thru-hiker season. Eating in the shelters & leaving extra unwanted food in the shelters are a few of the problems.

I have hiked many section hikes in the off season and the numbers are definitely down.

I still do not find them that big of a nuisance and not worth killing. Don't like them sleep else where...

PJ 2005
01-08-2007, 09:29
Wow, I didn't realize there were so many mice killers... honestly, I found them more amusing than irritating. Perhaps those that hate mice so much should be the ones avoiding shelters.

It's worth noting that there has been ONE case of hantavirus in the entire history of the Appalachian Trail.

saimyoji
01-08-2007, 09:33
Killing a few mice isn't so bad. They will be eaten by other critters sooner or later. Framing a picture like the Hiker Mouce of Skyland was rather disturbing though. Personally, I always pack a tent. Y'all are welcome to sleep with the mice.

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 09:38
mice are dirty vermin. shelters are dirty boxes. mice must die and shelters must burn.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 09:54
Not a 2007 thru (we are section hikers so are part of many yrs), but I feel you pain. The gathering in a shelter is a cross-section of humanity. Some value wildlife more than others. We often cook at shelters and socialize a bit, but move on to stealth sites to camp to avoid things like pot smoking, excessive drinking and mouse killing. These things are not part of our ideal wilderness experience, but all seem to be accepted behaviors at shelters.

Dancer
01-08-2007, 09:55
Mice carry disease. I'm a 'mouse killer'. I won't have them in my house, in my food or on my person. I think that getting all mushy and going 'PETA' on us is a little mellowdramatic. I don't think that there is a chance they will become endangered. If they do I'll pick up a picket and carry it down the trail... "Save the mice! We're all getting too much sleep in the shelter!"

Socrates
01-08-2007, 10:07
Thank god I don't use my Glock on every person that annoys me. Poor mice are just being mice. "Me big man! Big man aaangry! Big man kill you now! grunt grunt"

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 10:11
My best meese story is when I was sleeping in a firetower one night. A meese woke me up when he was getting some left-over food out of my beard. I reached over, turned on my headlamp and sat up to see where that meese was. He had climbed on the window sill. He was looking at me and when I picked up my hiking pole to smack him, he went down a small hole in the corner.

I went back to sleep, thinking he wouldn't bother me again, but it wasn't long and he was back messing around in front of my face. I did the same thing...turned my headlamp on and sat up. That meese was right back in the same corner watching me again. As soon as I picked up my Leki, he ran down the small hole again.

I stuck the end of one of my Leki's into the hole and that blocked it off, then I went back to sleep thinking the little bugger wouldn't get back out till morning.

Well, I had just fallen asleep again and that little meese was right back in front of my face. I turned on my headlamp, sat up and the little bugger was right back on the sill next to the hole he kept running into.

I wonder how many other hikers he had done the same thing to because he was a fat little bugger.

Well, I picked up my other Leki just like before. I got ready to smash the little bugger and he ran over to go into that hole again.

The look on his face was priceless when he realized that the hole was blocked off. He looked back at me and I could see that he was thinking....ah crap.........clunk!!!!

I slept great the rest of the night.

End of story. :)

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 10:13
Soda caps filled with anti-freeze work good.

Socrates
01-08-2007, 10:16
The look on his face was priceless when he realized that the hole was blocked off. He looked back at me and I could see that he was thinking....ah crap.........clunk!!!!

I slept great the rest of the night.

End of story. :)

You were telling a great story till the end. :mad:

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 10:18
You were telling a great story till the end. :mad:

Nah....the ending was the best part....I slept great!!! :)

Dancer
01-08-2007, 10:24
There is a very big difference between mice and people. You can bet that if a person snuck into my house, crapped on the kitchen counter, chewed a hole in my bread bag I'd use my .38 to take care of the problem. Alas...I don't have a Glock (gun toting PETA members are so sexy).

Mice are destructive and nasty. Shelters are not their natural habitat, that's man's evil device. I don't advocate the killing of mice for FUN but I also think that every animal needs a predator, even those awfully cute little disease bags. Get a grip. Mice killings are the least of the worlds problems.

weary
01-08-2007, 10:30
It's worth noting that there has been ONE case of hantavirus in the entire history of the Appalachian Trail.
And that happened so early in a thru hike to a person who had traveled widely before starting the trail, that no one knows where the disease originated.

The hiker was from Australia. I didn't meet him in '93, but when I returned home I ran across a nephew who was working in my town awaiting the rest of his party to climb Katahdin. The victim was near death for some weeks, but recovered and finished the trail the next year, If I remember rightly.

Weary

bull
01-08-2007, 10:36
Well said Amazonwoman, I agree. Some people seem to have a warped sense of priorities.
Mike

rafe
01-08-2007, 10:37
IMO, we humans as a species have a right to defend ourselves against other species that can do us harm. Which species has killed more humans than any other? Mosquitos. Though I imagine the Norway rat is high on the list (think: bubonic plague.)

At some point ethics come into the question. Cattle ranchers out west don't like the idea of wolves running free. Not so long ago, folks on or near the trail killed snakes without thinking twice. We don't do that any more, or at least not so much. Coexist if possible, but I for one don't equate mice with humans.

Dancer
01-08-2007, 10:39
Well said Amazonwoman, I agree. Some people seem to have a warped sense of priorities.
Mike

Thanks Mike, I find that the older I get the more unpopular my opinions become. Good to see I'm not alone.

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 10:40
Thanks Mike, I find that the older I get the more unpopular my opinions become. Good to see I'm not alone.

I was born with unpopular opinions. I came out middle finger first.:)

Dancer
01-08-2007, 10:43
I was born with unpopular opinions. I came out middle finger first.:)

Wolf... I think I have a crush on you...swoon ;) .

trippclark
01-08-2007, 10:49
I have not killed shelter mice, but would, as it is clear that they are not just an irritant (which they certainly are) but are a health risk as well. Probably the most significant risk is Hantavirus.

There is a good article on this at
http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile36.stm

Some excerpts include:

"In North America, about 1 out of 3 people with HPS have died."

". . . the virus has been found only in wild mice, specifically the deer mouse found across North America. Hantavirus is mainly spread when mouse droppings, urine or nesting materials are disturbed, sending virus particles into the air where they can be breathed in."

"Campers and hikers can also be exposed when they use infested trail shelters or camp in other deer mouse habitats. "

"The best way to prevent infection from hantavirus is to avoid contact with rodents and their droppings. The best way to prevent hantavirus infection is to control rodents in and around the home."

Mice are one of the main reasons that I do not sleep in shelters except in areas where this is mandated. Of course there are other reasons to avoid shelters . . . avoiding some of the activities that Dino points out in an earlier post, plus sleeping in my hammock is so much more comfortable!

Frosty
01-08-2007, 10:54
(gun toting PETA members are so sexy).As are people opposed to hunting for food, but not opposd to the killing of animals so they can make a style statement (leather clothing, car seats, gloves, shoes, etc.)

Just the thought of someone who is willing to use a Glock on a person but who rails against the killing of vermin is a bit too weird for me.

Sly
01-08-2007, 10:55
For all you mouse killers out there...:) think of Mickey, think of Minnie, think of Mighty! Think of all the poor mice without mothers! :( OK, not that sympathetic? ;) Quit your trapping at 9PM it's as disturbing to a good nights sleep as the mice. :mad:

vipahman
01-08-2007, 11:02
Here's my take. Mice are wildlife but when they become a nuisance, I consider them pests. Pests can be eliminated. Here's my classification:

Mice in the house - pests.
Few mice in the yard - wildlife.
Mice infestation in the yard - pests.
Mice in the trail - wildlife.
Few mice in the shelter - borderline pests, individual tolerances.
Mice infestation in the shelter - pests.

This can be applied to bears too.
Bear in the yard - wildlife.
Repeat bear in the yard - pest.

P.S. I have killed a few pests in my house.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 11:06
Perhaps we should put a black snake or two under all shelters to make them healthier places to stay.... or burn them all down as LW ha suggested.

There was a discussion of electing pavillions instead of shelters a while back. I suggested putting sleeping lofts over pavillions. If baffles were built into the support poles, this would help cut down on the mice and the hantivirus they carry.

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2007, 11:08
I was born with unpopular opinions. I came out middle finger first.:)

No wonder the doctor slapped your ...;)

I wonder, do any of you dog-hikers have less problems with mice? Or more because Fido keeps you up chasing them?

Hiking with my #1 mouser machine, an 8 pound feline carnivore named Marble, would definitely keep them to a minimum. Of course, I'd wake to a pile of presents, and mouse stew isn't my idea of keeping pack weight down, but it is a thought. I have seen feral cats occaisionally, though not in the numbers necessary to keep shelter mice at bay.

uscgretired
01-08-2007, 11:18
I caught three meeses in a basket in my garage eating pecan meat out of broken shells. Picked up the basket, carred it and the three meeses to an open field and dumped them out, within 2 seconds a hawk got two of them and a bluejay had one on the ground pecking the stew out of it. Awesome event.

Newb
01-08-2007, 11:18
I don't mind people killing the mice as long as they eat what they kill.

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 11:24
I don't mind people killing the mice as long as they eat what they kill.

You ever kill a cockroach??? :)

Sly
01-08-2007, 11:24
Here's my take. Mice are wildlife but when they become a nuisance, I consider them pests. Pests can be eliminated.

Dogs on the trail can become pests too! It's only a matter of time before someone eliminates one. Tick, Tock, Tick, Glock

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 11:27
Dogs on the trail can become pests too! It's only a matter of time before someone eliminates one. Tick, Tock, Tick, Glock

I've had to fight off a couple before, but I don't carry a stove anymore. Can dogs be sushi??? :)

Gray Blazer
01-08-2007, 11:31
I SAY KILL ANYONE WHO WOULD HURT A POOR LITTLE MOUSE!!!! Torture them a little first (have them make a nekkid pyramid or wear some girls panties on their head).

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 11:33
(have them make a nekkid pyramid or wear some girls panties on their head).

we do this in damascus all the time. no biggie.

Dancer
01-08-2007, 11:33
(have them make a nekkid pyramid or wear some girls panties on their head).[/quote]

Kinky...

Outlaw
01-08-2007, 11:39
Perhaps we should put a black snake or two under all shelters to make them healthier places to stay.... or burn them all down as LW ha suggested.

There was a discussion of electing pavillions instead of shelters a while back. I suggested putting sleeping lofts over pavillions. If baffles were built into the support poles, this would help cut down is the mice and the hantivirus they carry.

A guide book I once read suggested sleeping with your head towards the open side of the shelter, because as the mice have a tendency to run along where the floor and wall meet, what often follows is a snake. Bad enough to have a mouse or two run over you at night, but to have a snake slither over your head can be rather annoying.

Last summer when I was on the Northville-Placid Trail, two NYS DEC rangers stayed at the same lean-to as me and they personally killed three of the little vermin. If such killing is condoned by the state of New York, that's good enough for me!

Hantavirus is a concern and problematic not because of the mouse itself, but what it leaves behind in its urine, feces and nests. It is too easy to inadvertently come in contact with this stuff in a shelter to not take the risk associated seriously.

Just my $0.02!

stumpknocker
01-08-2007, 11:43
This has been fun, but I gotta run. :)

fiddlehead
01-08-2007, 12:01
IMO, we humans as a species have a right to defend ourselves against other species that can do us harm. Which species has killed more humans than any other? Mosquitos. Though I imagine the Norway rat is high on the list (think: bubonic plague.

Wrong! Man has killed more humans than any other species. Way, way more!
(Sorry Terrapin but for some reason i often (too often) have a hard time agreeing or even letting your threads go by without comment, why is that?)

rafe
01-08-2007, 12:06
Wrong! Man has killed more humans than any other species. Way, way more!
(Sorry Terrapin but for some reason i often (too often) have a hard time agreeing or even letting your threads go by without comment, why is that?)


I don't see where we're disagreeing. And this isn't "my thread" by a longshot.

Well, maybe we are. See this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100601439.html), where it says, "Malaria is believed to have killed more people than all wars and other illnesses combined."

fiddlehead
01-08-2007, 12:13
Sorry, i meant posts. (instead of threads)
Well, i'm disagreeing that mosquitos or rats killed more humans than man.

Jim Adams
01-08-2007, 12:20
TAKE A CAT!
I watched Ziggy eat 11 mice at Blood Mt. Shelter.
I never had any mice in my food or pack problems.
I didn't mind carrying dry cat food to suppliment the mice.
I never had anyone complain that the "cute kitty" was killing mice.

Take your own pussy with you and you have no complaints!

geek

PJ 2005
01-08-2007, 12:20
Socrates, contrary to what this thread may have you thinking, I encountered very few mouse killers/pot smokers/binge drinkers after the first hundred miles...

Blissful
01-08-2007, 12:22
Quit your trapping at 9PM it's as disturbing to a good nights sleep as the mice. :mad:


That was the main thing that bothered me was the sound of traps going off in the shelter. I could never set one or deal with it myself (ugh), but my hubby has, esp in our basement - when we moved in we had over twenty mice. I'll let others keep the mice away from me - thanks for your help!! :)

Too bad we can't put those ultrasonic pest plug-ins in shelters, they work great in our basement.

JimSproul
01-08-2007, 12:23
"Malaria is believed to ..." Yep, Racheal Carson, another misguided soul.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 12:38
Too bad we can't put those ultrasonic pest plug-ins in shelters, they work great in our basement.Wonder if a battery powered version is available?

Dancer
01-08-2007, 12:45
TAKE A CAT!
I watched Ziggy eat 11 mice at Blood Mt. Shelter.
I never had any mice in my food or pack problems.
I didn't mind carrying dry cat food to suppliment the mice.
I never had anyone complain that the "cute kitty" was killing mice.

Take your own pussy with you and you have no complaints!

geek

Did your cat 'hike' or mostly ride on your pack? Did you 'train' the cat or was it a learn as you go kind of thing where it followed it's food and master? Any problems getting it in and out of National Parks? I think hiking with a cat would be great. Would love to hear how that worked.

copythat
01-08-2007, 13:00
"Malaria is believed to ..." Yep, Racheal Carson, another misguided soul.

"The more clearly we can focus our attention on the wonders and realities of the universe about us, the less taste we shall have for destruction."

sounds like it could be a signature for plenty of people in w.b., all those poor, misguided souls. (btw, she wrote that in 1954, right around the time you were born.)

oh, and it's rachel. ;)

copythat
01-08-2007, 13:17
TAKE A CAT!
I watched Ziggy eat 11 mice at Blood Mt. Shelter.
I never had any mice in my food or pack problems.
I didn't mind carrying dry cat food to supplement the mice.
I never had anyone complain that the "cute kitty" was killing mice.


what was your cat's name again? furball? fluffy? here's his picture ...
http://tinyurl.com/y8j4um
:eek:

Socrates
01-08-2007, 13:17
Socrates, contrary to what this thread may have you thinking, I encountered very few mouse killers/pot smokers/binge drinkers after the first hundred miles...

That's a good thing. I think it is just best if I just ask people in the night, "Any mouse killers here?" If so, I'll just move on when time for bed. (I think I'm going to prefer my tent anyway.) I really am a nice guy, but I'll end up in a fight with someone the first time I see a mouse get beat down and I don't want that kind of reputation. Maybe it has to do with my childhood, but I always stand up for "the little guy".

Socrates
01-08-2007, 13:20
"The more clearly we can focus our attention on the wonders and realities of the universe about us, the less taste we shall have for destruction."

I like that quote a lot, but we are far far far from that point... if ever. I'm not even convinced if we're going uphill or downhill as a speices anymore. Don't let technology fool ya.

Socrates
01-08-2007, 13:29
(gun toting PETA members are so sexy).


First of all, I'm not a PETA member. I don't even know much about them. And I'm not sorry for disagreeing with the DEATH of animals just so you can get good sleep.
As far as Hantivirus, chances are the mice won't crap directly in your mouth and you've got personal issues if your face comes in contact with that much mouse poo on the floor. As a general rule, I don't lick and suck on my fingers while walking through the woods, especially after dealing with my poo or anything else's poo.
And while I'd like to think I'm cute, honestly, it's the Glock that's so dang sexy.:cool:

Crazy Larry #1
01-08-2007, 13:29
I was just looking at some wildlife photos some had posted. One was of a dead mouse with what looked like a beeper for a backpack and a stick holding its lifeless body up. Another was of about 6 or 7 dead mice from a shelter lined up on a log.
It hadn't even crossed my mind till I saw those pics, but am I going to encounter this on the trail? I own a Glock and believe in self defense, but against mice? I respect hunting and fishing, but mice? If a bee stings you, kill it, but mice?
I'm easy to get along with, but I'm known for letting others know what I think and there's nothing that boils my blood more than needlessly killing an animal. It is NOT going to happen while I'm around.
Am I going to end up needing to camp away in the woods? Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we were out there to be WITH nature? What's the normal attitude out there?
~ Socrates

If you kill any animal like you may have to while hiking then be prepared to eat it. I've eaten mice a couple of times. And even had rat on three occasions, but not on the trail. That was when I was down in Louisiana. A true Cajun knows how to utilize any meat product that happens across their path.

Just stealth camp man. But if you do stay in a shelter that is loaded with mice and you cannot kill the little fellars then share your peanut butter with them. Just make sure you put enough out to fill their little tummys to capacity and after they have eaten their fill they will go back to their nest to rest while they digest it.

Dances with Mice
01-08-2007, 13:39
As far as Hantivirus, chances are the mice won't crap directly in your mouth and you've got personal issues if your face comes in contact with that much mouse poo on the floor. As a general rule, I don't lick and suck on my fingers while walking through the woods, especially after dealing with my poo or anything else's poo.So you get to a shelter and see a broom in the corner, would you grab it and start sweeping out the place, stirring up a lot of dust? The question's not off-topic.

And if you set traps please don't use M&M's as bait! That's cruel. Some hiker could lose a finger.

Socrates
01-08-2007, 13:44
Just stealth camp man. But if you do stay in a shelter that is loaded with mice and you cannot kill the little fellars then share your peanut butter with them. Just make sure you put enough out to fill their little tummys to capacity and after they have eaten their fill they will go back to their nest to rest while they digest it.

Little Fellars eating peanut butter to fill their little tummys? AWWW! That's so cute! I can just pitcture it!

OH, I just went out to buy my ferret some food and while I was there, I picked up and bunch of rats and hampsters and kissed them ALL! Shame on you murderers! "Can't we all just get along?"

And let's not confuse killing a man for attempting to take my life with killing an animal because you can't sleep. BIG BIG difference.

JimSproul
01-08-2007, 13:46
"The more clearly we can focus our attention on the wonders and realities of the universe about us, the less taste we shall have for destruction."

sounds like it could be a signature for plenty of people in w.b., all those poor, misguided souls. (btw, she wrote that in 1954, right around the time you were born.)

oh, and it's rachel. ;)

... and many millions have died from pest born illness since "Silent Spring" was used as a fools tool to ban DDT. Of course, most weren't white so it really wasn't a high cost if only those people had to suffer!

Would a fool by any other name still be so wrong?

Sorry, touchy subject. I hate to see people suffer as the result of distant political agenda.

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2007, 13:47
Take your own pussy with you and you have no complaints!

Wanna bet?:rolleyes: :D

MOWGLI
01-08-2007, 13:48
Personally, the only thing I'm interested in killing out on the trail is - time. Oh yeah, and the occasional mosquito.

dixicritter
01-08-2007, 13:49
As far as Hantivirus, chances are the mice won't crap directly in your mouth and you've got personal issues if your face comes in contact with that much mouse poo on the floor. As a general rule, I don't lick and suck on my fingers while walking through the woods, especially after dealing with my poo or anything else's poo.


That's not how it works... Here's how it works...


Transmission Details: So How Does "Aerosolization" Really Work?

For a hantavirus to cause HPS, the virus must travel from the rodents that carry it to a person. A common way this happens is when a person breathes in the hantavirus from the air.

Let's create an imaginary scenario and go through the process step by step. Say you have a storage room in your home that you hardly ever enter. You keep old furniture there, old newspapers and magazines, and so on.

At some point, a group of deer mice find their way into the room, looking for places to build nests. They found their way into the room through a crackódeer mice can squeeze through holes as small as a shirt button! Some mice chew through the fabric of an old armchair and build a nest inside it. Other mice shred bits of magazines and build nests under the shredded pieces.

A few of these mice are infected with the hantavirus. The infected mice don't show any signs of being sick. In fact, the virus does not seem to make them ill at all; it simply lives in their bodies. However, the virus is shed continuously from them: into the droppings and urine they leave around the room, and into their saliva, which dries on anything they have chewed, such as nesting material. Out in the environment like this, the virus can live for several days.

Meanwhile, you decide to clean up your storage room. You go inside, spend a few minutes moving boxes and furniture. The mice hear you coming and scurry away, leaving a trail of fresh urine!

Because you find mouse droppings and some of the furniture stuffing the mice have used as nesting material, you get a broom and sweep up the mess. As you move around and sweep, tiny particles of fresh urine, droppings and saliva, with the virus in them, get kicked up into the air. This is the aerosolization. It is these tiny particles that you breathe inóand this is the beginning of becoming sick with HPS.

Because the virus is spread when virus-containing particles are stirred up into the air, an essential HPS prevention tactic in areas showing signs of rodents is to avoid actions that raise dust and to carefully wet the area down with disinfectant. The less chance the virus has to get into the air, the less chance it will be breathed in!


Take from this site... http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hanta/hps/noframes/aerosol.htm

MOWGLI
01-08-2007, 13:49
... and many millions have died from pest born illness since "Silent Spring" was used as a fools tool to ban DDT.....

Good thing this isn't the straight forward forum Jim. ;)

saimyoji
01-08-2007, 13:50
So you get to a shelter and see a broom in the corner, would you grab it and start sweeping out the place, stirring up a lot of dust? The question's not off-topic.

And if you set traps please don't use M&M's as bait! That's cruel. Some hiker could lose a finger.

Uh, you guys know that the rodents aren't the only carriers of disease out there right? Mice have fleas, mites, ticks, etc. When you kill the mouse, guess where the fleas and stuff go? Thats right...on YOU. Kill the mouse, but don't keep it around the shelter. And posturing them to take pictures? Better to get a good recipe from TOW.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 13:55
::: studies feasibility of rodent BC mixed with PB :::

Socrates
01-08-2007, 14:02
dixicritter - Thanks. Now I'm better educated. However, I still don't think it's worth killing them.

And don't get me wrong folks. Those of you who meet me on the trail will find that I'm very friendly. I don't know if it's my smile or boyish face, but folks even think they can take advantage of my friendliness... Little do they know that even I draw the line eventually and then they're like "Daaang, calm down!" lol Like it's my fault.

I don't think I'm asking too much here. Just don't kill things around me right? I'll figure it out at the shelters and if all else fails, sleep in muh tent. God knows I paid enough for it!

trippclark
01-08-2007, 14:05
As far as Hantivirus, chances are the mice won't crap directly in your mouth and you've got personal issues if your face comes in contact with that much mouse poo on the floor. As a general rule, I don't lick and suck on my fingers while walking through the woods, especially after dealing with my poo or anything else's poo.

Socrates,

I expect that with the above quote you do truly understand the problem but are just trying to be funny, but in case you are not, you need to realize that the issue is not that simple. Rodents that are infected with this virus spread the disease through droppings. The major risk is not from coming "in contact with that much mouse poo on the floor," but after those droppings have dried, turned tu dust and become airborne. They are then stirred up by sweeping, walking, wind, or any number of things that stir the air or the floor surface. This dust is then inhaled through the mouth or nose of, say, a hiker who happens to be sleeping on a shelter floor.

Is Hantavirus a huge problem striking down dozens of hikers and campers annually? No, far from it, with only about 400 cases in North America, but it is a very serious disease (remember 1 in 3 have died from the disease).

greentick
01-08-2007, 14:06
I don't mind people killing the mice as long as they eat what they kill.

put some hot sauce on em - just like wings...

MOWGLI
01-08-2007, 14:07
... and many millions have died from pest born illness since "Silent Spring" was used as a fools tool to ban DDT.

DDT was never actually banned - except here in the US. DDT has always been manufactured in the US and exported to other countries. A chemical plant in Texas has produced DDT since the 50s, and continues to do so.

The indiscriminate spraying of DDT has always been a bad idea. DDT is currently being used in countries with a high incidence of malaria, but it is being sprayed in small doses inside dwellings. Not on fields and forests and open water sources where it can kill everything.

To stay on topic, I am not suggesting you carry DDT to deal with mice on the AT. ;)

Jim Adams
01-08-2007, 14:11
Did your cat 'hike' or mostly ride on your pack? Did you 'train' the cat or was it a learn as you go kind of thing where it followed it's food and master? Any problems getting it in and out of National Parks? I think hiking with a cat would be great. Would love to hear how that worked.

AmazonWoman,
Ziggy walked the first 30 miles and then rode the top of my pack the rest of the way. Smokies and Baxter did not permit him.

Copythat,
nice photo but he felt heavier than that!:banana

geek

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 14:15
speaking of killing dirty varmints, here's some fun for the whole family
www.dogbegone.com/video.htm

Jim Adams
01-08-2007, 14:23
LW, that is soooo sick!
geek

Dancer
01-08-2007, 14:27
BTW,

Lone Wolf, my crush comment was in fun. I realized after I posted that I could have offended you or made you feel threatened, reverse of the sexual harrassment we've discussed in such depth on this sight. No harrassment intended sweetthang...oops...there I go again. :)

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 14:30
BTW,

Lone Wolf, my crush comment was in fun. I realized after I posted that I could have offended you or made you feel threatened, reverse of the sexual harrassment we've discussed in such depth on this sight. No harrassment intended sweetthang...oops...there I go again. :)

Shoooot! Takes quite a bit to offend my dumb ass.:D I'm flattered.

copythat
01-08-2007, 14:33
reading back over some of these posts, i feel bad for the poor little micies. it's not their fault they carry diseases, any more than it was the fault of those cute little ratses in the days of yore. THEY didn't know about the nasty plague-infested fleases.

and what about those cute little skeetos? do they choose to carry west nile? of course not.

and the deer ticks? picture this: "1-800-MAYHEM, can i help you? ... 150,000 doses of lyme disease? sure. y'want that fed exed?"

i say leave the poor things alone. they're only cogs in this awful machine of impurity we call nature.

'Hey farmer farmer, put away that ddt now; give me spots on my apples, but leave me the birds and the bees ... ' and shelter mice. :-?

psst ... ziggy ... dinner time ...

The Weasel
01-08-2007, 14:33
I don't particularly like mice, so if I find a shelter seems to have a mouse problem, I will tent nearby or keep going. That said, while I sympathize with those who trap out mice, in much of the AT it is at least technically illegal, particularly in National Parks (and, probably, most State Parks) and in designated Wilderness Areas in other public lands. While I don't think anyone is at risk of arrest, a ranger (particuarly in GSMNP and Shenandoah) might well remove the traps and ask people not to replace them.

The Weasel

Socrates
01-08-2007, 14:38
speaking of killing dirty varmints, here's some fun for the whole family

that is nothing but pure sickness.

oddly enough, i've shot one of those before. i thought we we're going to eat it... i guess i should have asked first. when my brother in law picked it up, he just told me "good shot" and tossed it in the woods. i was shocked and depressed and decided it was the last time i would ever go hunting.

the reason that video pisses me off so bad is because they obviously took those animals lives for the soul purpose of entertainment. for one, they didn't have to use CANNONS the size of texas. and they certainly didn't have to film it. they knew exactly what they were doing. i honestly would not have no second thoughts about breaking their legs with a bat to never walk again... but that's just me:D

Bloodroot
01-08-2007, 14:47
that is nothing but pure sickness.

oddly enough, i've shot one of those before. i thought we we're going to eat it... i guess i should have asked first. when my brother in law picked it up, he just told me "good shot" and tossed it in the woods. i was shocked and depressed and decided it was the last time i would ever go hunting.

the reason that video pisses me off so bad is because they obviously took those animals lives for the soul purpose of entertainment. for one, they didn't have to use CANNONS the size of texas. and they certainly didn't have to film it. they knew exactly what they were doing. i honestly would not have no second thoughts about breaking their legs with a bat to never walk again... but that's just me:D


You must be one of those PETA weiners?

copythat
01-08-2007, 14:47
speaking of killing dirty varmints, here's some fun for the whole family
www.dogbegone.com/video.htm

i'm guessing out-of-work usmc sta ... :eek:

copythat
01-08-2007, 14:52
originally posted by Socrates ... i honestly would not have second thoughts about breaking their legs with a bat ...


You must be one of those PETA weiners?

tonya harding's cousin!


(you know, the bat/leg thing.)

Socrates
01-08-2007, 14:55
You must be one of those PETA weiners?

now now, dont go insulting me. there's no need to get heated with each other and i don't feel like letting you know what i think of you for saying that. :D but i will say that if someone explodes an animal in front of me, i'll be the next thing to explode and that's when i'm not very nice at all. :rolleyes:

Bloodroot
01-08-2007, 15:01
now now, dont go insulting me. there's no need to get heated with each other and i don't feel like letting you know what i think of you for saying that. :D but i will say that if someone explodes an animal in front of me, i'll be the next thing to explode and that's when i'm not very nice at all. :rolleyes:

Ok, Ok, I'm sorry for insulting. All this exploding stuff and breaking legs with bats has got me getting in the fetal position.

Dancer
01-08-2007, 15:01
I just watched the video and I have to say that I don't have anything against hunting for food and for population control but I think it's kind of sick to video it and slow it down for maximum gut splatter angles and impact cartwheels. If you can watch a whole DVD of that and think it's funny you may need help. Hunting and turning it into sick reviewable entertainment are two different things. Still love you Wolfie.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 15:07
speaking of killing dirty varmints, here's some fun for the whole family www.dogbegone.com/video.htm (http://www.dogbegone.com/video.htm)::: :eek: Bites LW on all four paws and the nose :eek: :::

The Weasel
01-08-2007, 15:09
speaking of killing dirty varmints, here's some fun for the whole family
www.dogbegone.com/video.htm (http://www.dogbegone.com/video.htm)

This is a site that is supposed to be about the Appalachian Trail, and not even hunting. This video is simply appalling, particularly in the "general" section of this site.

The Weasel

Socrates
01-08-2007, 15:12
Ok, Ok, I'm sorry for insulting. All this exploding stuff and breaking legs with bats has got me getting in the fetal position.

i'm a little stressed too! :::going outside for a menthol now::: ... that's right you health freaks! i smoke! mmmm and they taste goood! my cardio is fine so leave me alone puhleeez!

STEVEM
01-08-2007, 15:12
Socrates, Take one of these with you. I'm sure it will earn you an interesting new trailname.

http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=HAV-1020

Dancer
01-08-2007, 15:14
Hey Socrates,

I don't how much research has been done but I bet second hand smoke causes health problems in animals too. Don't smoke around the mice and birdies. (hehehe)

Gray Blazer
01-08-2007, 15:21
now now, dont go insulting me. there's no need to get heated with each other and i don't feel like letting you know what i think of you for saying that. :D but i will say that if someone explodes an animal in front of me, i'll be the next thing to explode and that's when i'm not very nice at all. :rolleyes:Will you drink some hemlock?:D

Bloodroot
01-08-2007, 15:32
Will you drink some hemlock?:D

Awww, now that's mean!!! LOL.

Socrates
01-08-2007, 15:34
Will you drink some hemlock?:D

NO WAY! ... it gives me gas

copythat
01-08-2007, 16:19
Socrates, Take one of these with you. I'm sure it will earn you an interesting new trailname.

http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=HAV-1020

that's the new shelter design! :eek:

Socrates
01-08-2007, 16:28
that's the new shelter design! :eek:

Hmmm so catch the mouse killers WITH the "disease infested" mice, mouse killers eventually die, let the mice eat the mouse killers, mice poop out mouse killers... Take the gigantic poo layer, turn it to dust, fill air balloons with poo dust, have an AT mouse killer shelter party, and then a balloon popping contest...

Am I on to something here?:D

Brrrb Oregon
01-08-2007, 16:33
Ummm, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but from what I've read of this thread, I only had one question, particularly after the elaborate eat-and-poop post.

What grade did you guys say you're going to be in next year? :rolleyes:

Bloodroot
01-08-2007, 16:35
Hmmm so catch the mouse killers WITH the "disease infested" mice, mouse killers eventually die, let the mice eat the mouse killers, mice poop out mouse killers... Take the gigantic poo layer, turn it to dust, fill air balloons with poo dust, have an AT mouse killer shelter party, and then a balloon popping contest...

Am I on to something here?:D

Socrates, wait till you get on trail and meet the secret society of mouse killers. It's true, they are really out there amongst AT thru-hikers. I even came upon them back in '05 ar Partnership Shelter performing the annual mouse-kabob grill out. I admit, I was so hungry I had one for myself!

mindi
01-08-2007, 16:40
I knew this was going to end up in a debate. Oh well.

I don't kill mice and I don't want to see people kill mice, so I'm staying out of the shelters unless I have to. Then I don't have to argue with anyone about it or have someone call me a PETA freak or a hypocrite.

A better story for you, Socrates. I caught a field mouse in a humane trap a couple of weeks ago. I took him out in the woods to let him go and he leaped into the air and then stopped and looked at me before he scampered off. Totally made my day.

Happy hiking, everyone.
:) Mindi

Socrates
01-08-2007, 16:44
Socrates, wait till you get on trail and meet the secret society of mouse killers. It's true, they are really out there amongst AT thru-hikers. I even came upon them back in '05 ar Partnership Shelter performing the annual mouse-kabob grill out. I admit, I was so hungry I had one for myself!

Hey, if they're eating them, I won't complain! Hell, if I smell a little meat on the grill, I'll nibble on them bones too... If you want to put them to full use... I bet their skin would make for great toe warmers. :-?

The Weasel
01-08-2007, 16:46
***I don't kill mice and I don't want to see people kill mice, so I'm staying out of the shelters unless I have to. Then I don't have to argue with anyone about it or have someone call me a PETA freak or a hypocrite.
:) Mindi

Mindi:

The mouse problem is overblown, and you don't need to stay out of shelters because of it, usually. First, most shelters have a relatively small mouse population, if any. Leaving your pack zippers open will eliminate knawing, but I've never had a problem with that. In only 2 shelters did I have any real mouse problem, and it was obvious within a few minutes of setting up, and I simply moved out and pitched my tarp nearby. Most shelter registers will tell you if there's a problem, so reading the last few days when you pull in and have a drink of water is another way to find out if there is any reason to move on.

The Weasel

Socrates
01-08-2007, 16:46
mindi - yeah, those are the best stories! thanks

Ewker
01-08-2007, 16:48
mouse traps great invention...got to like the snap sound:banana

we got 5 in 15 minutes at Roan High Knob Shelter using peanut butter

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 16:49
Bambi and Thumper live!
http://thrillingwonder.blogspot.com/2007/01/real-life-bambi-thumper.html

rafe
01-08-2007, 16:52
The mouse problem is overblown, and you don't need to stay out of shelters because of it, usually. First, most shelters have a relatively small mouse population, if any.


Mouse aren't the only unwelcome guests. Skunks happen. You want to tread very lightly around Pepe le Pew. :D

Bloodroot
01-08-2007, 16:54
mouse traps great invention...got to like the snap sound:banana

we got 5 in 15 minutes at Roan High Knob Shelter using peanut butter

I thought the shelter bag limit was 3 per shelter?

Socrates
01-08-2007, 17:02
Bambi and Thumper live!
http://thrillingwonder.blogspot.com/2007/01/real-life-bambi-thumper.html

wow wolf, that almost makes up for that other disturbing post. i must admit, as i scrolled down, i kept waiting for it evolve into something sick and twisted, but it stayed cute and cuddly the whole way down. congrats! there's hope for you yet!:D

Lone Wolf
01-08-2007, 17:04
never judge a poster by his posts

mindi
01-08-2007, 17:04
Aww, how cute! Thanks, Wolf.

:) Mindi

Ewker
01-08-2007, 17:10
I thought the shelter bag limit was 3 per shelter?


I thought it was 3 per person :D

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 17:16
Bambi and Thumper live!
http://thrillingwonder.blogspot.com/2007/01/real-life-bambi-thumper.html::: unbites LW on all four paws and nose :::

Mother's Finest
01-08-2007, 17:18
yeah lone wolf is a kind brother at heart......

I have posted my opinion on gratuitous killing on a hunting dog thread in the past. I think killing mice in the shelters is wrong. It makes you less of a human, and more like those mice. It also will do absolutely nothing to control the population of mice at said shelter.

Hikers are a lot like mice. Opportunists, looking for a warm and dry place to stay with food.....

peace
mf

weary
01-08-2007, 17:47
....killing mice in the shelters ....makes you less of a human, and more like those mice. .....
What a terrible unfair thing to say about mice, tiny critters that eat only dead vegetable matter.

Mother's Finest
01-08-2007, 17:52
I like your thought process Weary.....

only problem is, I have seen those little buggers go cannibal. I keep a live trap outside of my garage, as that is how they gain entrance to my home. Usually, I check the trap a few times a week, particularly when the temperature changes. One time, I did not get out there for over a week.

One mouse was still alive and kicking, while all that was left of his pal was a tail, feet, fur and backbone.

They do love it when they are released.

peace
mf

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 17:52
::: gives Weary a high five :::

Jan LiteShoe
01-08-2007, 17:58
Live and let live.
:)

rafe
01-08-2007, 18:05
Live and let live. :)

I've never killed a shelter mouse -- though I have certainly wished them dead, or a least gone. I've trapped lotsa mice in my house.. the one I live in. No regrets, not the slightest twinge of conscience. They're welcome to live in the yard. Not in my house.

Mother's Finest
01-08-2007, 18:14
Hey Terrapin Too,

Just making a suggestion. You will have more success trapping mice and keeping their population down in your house if you use live traps. you can catch multiple mice at once. No bait.

then just release them 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. they will not come back

peace
mf

ozt42
01-08-2007, 18:27
I guess the only question left is what is everyones batting average in mouse baseball when forced to use a skinny little leki for a bat? :D

STEVEM
01-08-2007, 18:36
Socretes, Eat the little meeses. You'll be a guaranteed trail legend.

http://bertc.com/cooking_rats.htm

Paul Bunyan
01-08-2007, 18:38
I remenber doing a section hike in Shenendoah. One hiker named Disney was setting mouse traps. During the night he said he heard them snap, but didnt think much of it. In the morning, he noticed that three hikers had left early, along with the cheese in the traps. He said that there was no way the traps had been sprung by mice. Just goes to show what lengths some people will go to protect their mice.:rolleyes:

Paul Bunyan
01-08-2007, 18:39
Hey Terrapin Too,

Just making a suggestion. You will have more success trapping mice and keeping their population down in your house if you use live traps. you can catch multiple mice at once. No bait.

then just release them 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. they will not come back

peace
mf

I beg to differ, they will come back.

Socrates
01-08-2007, 18:40
I guess the only question left is what is everyones batting average in mouse baseball when forced to use a skinny little leki for a bat? :D

I don't know much about Leki poles, but I know a great place to put one... or even two since you seem so fond of them.:D :D :D

dixicritter
01-08-2007, 18:42
That's about enough of that stuff folks! Go find another topic please I believe that y'all have just about run this one in the ground. The threats of violence are uncalled for.

oldfivetango
01-08-2007, 18:43
I have always wondered about macho hikers who sleep
in shelters full of mice and strangers.The whole idea is so
foreign to my way of thinking as to propose that shelters
be banned.Why are they there?So ultralighters can rack
up BIG MILES by carrying no or virtually no shelter and
then brag to the rest of us about it?I understand that the
Benton Mackaye trail has only two shelters in order to keep
it a pure wilderness experience-GOOD IDEA - imho.
Cheers,
OFT
ps-I thought the prairie dog video was a hoot!

Socrates
01-08-2007, 18:43
I remenber doing a section hike in Shenendoah. One hiker named Disney was setting mouse traps. During the night he said he heard them snap, but didnt think much of it. In the morning, he noticed that three hikers had left early, along with the cheese in the traps. He said that there was no way the traps had been sprung by mice. Just goes to show what lengths some people will go to protect their mice.:rolleyes:

great story! haha... i'd do the dame thing!

Socrates
01-08-2007, 18:55
That's about enough of that stuff folks! Go find another topic please I believe that y'all have just about run this one in the ground. The threats of violence are uncalled for.

i've kept up with every word of this thread and no one has threatened anyone, if you're refering to me, i merely made it known that i have great suggestions for the storage of leki poles for people who like to play "mouse baseball", :D but threatened? nah nobody has said a word.

but i agree, this one is running around in circles now. i asked a question and i think it was answered from many perspectives. sometimes, i'll be in my tent and sometimes i'll be in the shelters.

but moderator, why step in? it looks lie we're all having a god time here. are we wasting space on some main frame compyter or something? from reading other threads over and over, this one kind of reminds me of the movie "the twilight zone" when the old people went out in the middle of the night and played "kick the can" lol

dixicritter
01-08-2007, 19:02
Don't make me dig through this thread and site examples. ;) I've read the whole thread.

iliketacos
01-08-2007, 19:04
Has anyone thought of this?

http://www.birdfood.co.uk/product_details.php?area_id=2&group_id=17&nav_id=100&prd_id=1045

Funny note on the above product: We recommend that this product is not used in areas that are occupied by bats.

http://www.mysimon.com/Garden/9000-10974_8-0.html?mlpid=29226966

Personally I could care less about the mice-I will throw them in with my Ramen soup.

:banana

Socrates
01-08-2007, 19:10
Don't make me dig through this thread and site examples. ;) I've read the whole thread.

woohoo! i got winked at by the moderator! kinda like a chick in uniform... sexeh!... jeez i need sleep... nite yall!

Pacific Tortuga
01-08-2007, 19:17
woohoo! i got winked at by the moderator! kinda like a chick in uniform... sexeh!... jeez i need sleep... nite yall!


DO NOT EVEN GO THERE : dc is a strong independent woman and will speak for herself w/heart, show some class.

copythat
01-08-2007, 19:31
Ummm, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but from what I've read of this thread, I only had one question, particularly after the elaborate eat-and-poop post.

What grade did you guys say you're going to be in next year? :rolleyes:


same one we've been stuck in since 6th. :cool:

cutman11
01-08-2007, 19:39
During heavy hiking season, shelters have mice, and mice are a nuisance. The mice are there mostly because of sloppy hikers. Go back to that same shelter off-season and the mice are gone.

Yes, I have noticed that on my section hikes when I am on a section of trail not recently inhabited by a large number of hikers at shelters, there seems to be much less of a mouse problem than described in the shelter register....unless of course, the register was left lying out and a mouse chewed it up to use for nesting material.....

Gray Blazer
01-08-2007, 19:54
That's about enough of that stuff folks! Go find another topic please I believe that y'all have just about run this one in the ground. The threats of violence are uncalled for.Dixie, the Hemlock and Socrates reference was a reference to the original Socrates. I would never harm the WB Socrates unless he was trying physically to harm me or mine. I try not to sleep in shelters myself because, although some of them are mighty cute (the mice, that is), I don't really want them crawling on me while I sleep.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-08-2007, 20:30
Dixie, I promise I didn't draw blood when I nipped LW on the paws and nose :D

Hammock Hanger
01-08-2007, 21:19
...I could see that he was thinking....ah crap.........clunk!!!!

I slept great the rest of the night.

End of story.


Stumpy!!!!!:eek: :eek: Man I used to idolize you, my heart is broken and my world is shattered!!:mad:

If I was there I would have made you eat him, then his life would not have been snuffed out in vain.:D

weary
01-08-2007, 23:47
I have always wondered about macho hikers who sleep
in shelters full of mice and strangers.The whole idea is so
foreign to my way of thinking as to propose that shelters
be banned.Why are they there?So ultralighters can rack
up BIG MILES by carrying no or virtually no shelter and
then brag to the rest of us about it?I understand that the
Benton Mackaye trail has only two shelters in order to keep
it a pure wilderness experience-GOOD IDEA - imho.
Cheers,!
Shelters are a tradition, dating back to the first Adirondack shelters, which date from the 1800s or earlier. When Myron Avery began building the trail, shelters were a natural thing to add, since all north country trails already had some in place.

ATC defends them as being part of the trail tradition and as a way to concentrate camping. Without such organized places, campers would clog every level place along the trail with reasonable access to water, or so the argument goes, thus damaging the sense of wildness the trail provides along much of its length.

I argue against further shelter construction mostly because with growing use everyone now has to carry a portable shelter to be sure of a place out of the rain during inclement weather.

Rather than shelters I would substitute developed camping sites with tent platforms, tables, and maybe picnic-type shelters for a comfortable place to sit and cook.

Weary

The Weasel
01-08-2007, 23:55
More likely will, one day, be permitted backpacking, as is increasingly the case in many of our National Parks.

The Weasel

rafe
01-09-2007, 00:00
More likely will, one day, be permitted backpacking, as is increasingly the case in many of our National Parks.


I'm convinced that limited-access is part of what makes Baxter SP so special. Besides the fact that it's pretty remote in the first place.

bfitz
01-09-2007, 00:10
Does anyone remember the thread in the last year about a whiteblazer who rescued a mouse and had him at the office all day and posting recovery updates?

MOWGLI
01-09-2007, 03:08
I remenber doing a section hike in Shenendoah. One hiker named Disney was setting mouse traps. During the night he said he heard them snap, but didnt think much of it. In the morning, he noticed that three hikers had left early, along with the cheese in the traps. He said that there was no way the traps had been sprung by mice. Just goes to show what lengths some people will go to protect their mice.:rolleyes:

It wasn't me, really, I swear.
How do you know?
The traps were still there!

stumpknocker
01-09-2007, 07:08
More likely will, one day, be permitted backpacking, as is increasingly the case in many of our National Parks.

The Weasel

That one act alone would ruin the nature of the AT for me. It's a free place kept up by mostly volunteers that should stay a free place....period.

oldfivetango
01-09-2007, 09:36
Shelters are a tradition, dating back to the first Adirondack shelters, which date from the 1800s or earlier. When Myron Avery began building the trail, shelters were a natural thing to add, since all north country trails already had some in place.

ATC defends them as being part of the trail tradition and as a way to concentrate camping. Without such organized places, campers would clog every level place along the trail with reasonable access to water, or so the argument goes, thus damaging the sense of wildness the trail provides along much of its length.

I argue against further shelter construction mostly because with growing use everyone now has to carry a portable shelter to be sure of a place out of the rain during inclement weather.

Rather than shelters I would substitute developed camping sites with tent platforms, tables, and maybe picnic-type shelters for a comfortable place to sit and cook.

Weary
Ditto all that Weary!
Besides,everyone else needs to have a shot at having
a load to carry that is as heavy as mine(i AM working on it)
And the whole shelter scenario seems to add a Disney
or Six Flags theme park aura to the trail and destroys the
natural ambiance altogether.As for the mice issue that started
this thread,people who sleep with mice have got to be sick
when they could sleep undisturbed in their own shelter.
And yes,folks,I had to kill a mouse once-don't ever want
to go there again-he was running around in my living room
and the family couldn't take it.That said,I thought Wolf's
prairie dog video was still a hoot!For those of you who don't
know,prairie dogs are a real pest and their holes cause livestock
(like horses)to break their legs.Which is the greater loss?I say Mister
Prairie Dog can forfeit his life for the greater good.(Weigh in, Wolfie)
Cheers,
OFT

Lone Wolf
01-09-2007, 09:40
[QUOTE=oldfivetango;299777I thought Wolf's
prairie dog video was still a hoot!For those of you who don't
know,prairie dogs are a real pest and their holes cause livestock
(like horses)to break their legs.Which is the greater loss?I say Mister
Prairie Dog can forfeit his life for the greater good.(Weigh in, Wolfie)
Cheers,
OFT[/QUOTE]

I was trying to show that there other pests/vermin besides mice. It seems only a weasel was offended.:cool:

Dancer
01-09-2007, 10:42
Squirrels might as well be rats with big tails and bigger teeth and pigeons are just rats with wings... racoons, now they have class.

LeeF
01-09-2007, 11:04
Julie,
If you like raccoons you absolutely must go camping at Hanging Rock State Park. I know its car camping but its worth it. The raccoons there are so bold they will climb up on the picnic table while you are sitting there and beg for fun. Don't bother zipping up your tent they know how to unzip it. I counted 15 in the first two hours after sun down the last time I was there. It is good leave no trace camping practice. We slept great that night when we weren't laughing at the campers around us who left food in their tents.

saimyoji
01-09-2007, 11:17
I was trying to show that there other pests/vermin besides mice. It seems only a weasel was offended.:cool:

No, no, no. THE WEASEL. :D

Dancer
01-09-2007, 11:19
thanks LeeF,

I had a pet racoon when I was a teenager and she was the best and cleanest animal I've ever had. I'll have to check out Hanging Rock State Park it sounds fun. I wonder though how they react if they don't get their way...even my Scooter had a temper.

Jullie

Gray Blazer
01-09-2007, 11:24
Squirrels might as well be rats with big tails and bigger teeth and pigeons are just rats with wings... racoons, now they have class.Unless they are......Killer..... Psycho..... Raccoons!! (That's a whole 'nother thread here at WB, check it out.)

Dancer
01-09-2007, 11:27
Unless they are......Killer..... Psycho..... Raccoons!! (That's a whole 'nother thread here at WB, check it out.)


I'll look into that.

rafe
01-09-2007, 11:40
Nobody's mentioned skunks, but they are common. I still remember that black and white tail poking out of the pocket of some hiker's pack in a shelter in Maine. Just let 'im be.

MOWGLI
01-09-2007, 11:41
For those of you who don't
know,prairie dogs are a real pest and their holes cause livestock
(like horses) to break their legs. Which is the greater loss?

The greater loss is the TRUTH. This is a MYTH perpetuated by the livestock industry.

From Smithsonian (http://www.catherinedold.com/fpdogs.htm)magazine;

"Ranchers also fear prairie dog invasions because of the "broken leg" phenomenon.
But that always seems to have happened to someone else. "There has never been a documented case of that happening except in John Wayne movies," says Sharps. "Those are old wives' tales." Sharps tells of posing the broken leg question at a conference in South Dakota. "I had a captive audience of a couple hundred ranchers.
I said, 'If anyone knows of a cow or a horse that has broken a leg in a prairie dog town, please raise your hand.' Nothing. Silence. It's a myth. Everyone says, 'Oh, yeah, I've heard that,' but when it comes right down to it, they can't come up with anything."

So why do ranchers continue to despise the prairie dog, in the face of all this modern research? "There is absolutely no rationale to it," sighs Sharps. "They just do it. Their daddies did it, their granddaddies did it, they are going to do it. Their minds are made up.""

Hammock Hanger
01-09-2007, 11:43
Heck, let's just carry one of those big ole' rifles and shoot anything that moves. It won't mess with my wilderness experience. After I have shot a few I can snap a picture with my cell camera and show everyone how well I am communing with nature. :) :)

Dancer
01-09-2007, 11:58
Heck, let's just carry one of those big ole' rifles and shoot anything that moves. It won't mess with my wilderness experience. After I have shot a few I can snap a picture with my cell camera and show everyone how well I am communing with nature. :) :)

Nobody has suggested using a gun to shoot animals on the trail, although traps and leki poles were mentioned. the video clip that I think we all agree is in bad taste used guns but other than that and Socrates repeatedly putting his GLOCK in our faces and my one mention of my .38 in my home, there was no mention of taking a gun on the trail. I think we all agree that that would be stupid.

I think you generalization is baseless.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 11:59
I had a white mice as a child - they were very clean and friendly - but I still didn't want to sleep with them.

Maybe we could find a use for the furry little critters so they wouldn't be pests any more - how about battery chargers powered by mice? We use this design (http://http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html) with multiple wheels inside something similar to Weary's live catch trap.

Hammock Hanger
01-09-2007, 12:49
Nobody has suggested using a gun to shoot animals on the trail, although traps and leki poles were mentioned. the video clip that I think we all agree is in bad taste used guns but other than that and Socrates repeatedly putting his GLOCK in our faces and my one mention of my .38 in my home, there was no mention of taking a gun on the trail. I think we all agree that that would be stupid.

I think you generalization is baseless.

??? I'm in a weird mood (mostly from reading to much WB) and having some fun but I'm lost here ??? Are you getting serious on me?:confused:

Dancer
01-09-2007, 13:06
??? I'm in a weird mood (mostly from reading to much WB) and having some fun but I'm lost here ??? Are you getting serious on me?:confused:

I thought you were being serious...sorry. No hard feelings?

Hammock Hanger
01-09-2007, 13:38
I thought you were being serious...sorry. No hard feelings?
Cool...:banana (But I seriously DO NOT kill meese, I leave that to Stumpy, so he can have a midnight snack.)

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 14:00
Having known HH for a while, the thought of her frolicking down the trail with a big ol' rifle is hilarious (I giigled out loud when I read it), but I can see how those who don't know her could get the wrong idea.

weary
01-09-2007, 14:16
...Their minds are made up.""[/I]
You mean ranchers are just like some members of White Blaze?

MOWGLI
01-09-2007, 14:35
You mean ranchers are just like some members of White Blaze?

Thanks Weary. I'm glad somebody reads my posts. :sun

rswanson
01-09-2007, 14:50
You mean ranchers are just like some members of White Blaze?
Awesome man, just awesome!

Blissful
01-09-2007, 15:35
Unless they are......Killer..... Psycho..... Raccoons!! (That's a whole 'nother thread here at WB, check it out.)


Where is that thread? They do exist! I encountered a psycho raccoon, at the Sam Moore Shelter, Northern VA. That thing was looney. It charged me too in the middle of the night screaming or whatever sound it makes. I swatted at it with my ziploc bag of toilet paper and it finally ran away.

Heater
01-09-2007, 15:45
Squirrels might as well be rats with big tails and bigger teeth and pigeons are just rats with wings... racoons, now they have class.

Grackels are the biggest pest around here.

I think they are attracted by the large campus with lots of food lying around. They will actually swoop down and take food out of your hand if you don't watch it. I hate those birds. They crap everywhere.

Outlaw
01-09-2007, 15:45
Where is that thread? They do exist! I encountered a psycho raccoon, at the Sam Moore Shelter, Northern VA. That thing was looney. It charged me too in the middle of the night screaming or whatever sound it makes. I swatted at it with my ziploc bag of toilet paper and it finally ran away.

So do rabid raccoons too! Ya gotta be careful with the little bandits... if they appear overly aggressive, it may not be that they're just a little psycho.

Heater
01-09-2007, 15:54
Where is that thread? They do exist! I encountered a psycho raccoon, at the Sam Moore Shelter, Northern VA. That thing was looney. It charged me too in the middle of the night screaming or whatever sound it makes. I swatted at it with my ziploc bag of toilet paper and it finally ran away.

Sleeveless was attacked by one. Required stitches and Rabies shots, I think. There was mention if it in a thread here.

Gray Blazer
01-09-2007, 15:59
Where is that thread? They do exist! I encountered a psycho raccoon, at the Sam Moore Shelter, Northern VA. That thing was looney. It charged me too in the middle of the night screaming or whatever sound it makes. I swatted at it with my ziploc bag of toilet paper and it finally ran away.Go to search and type in psycho killer raccoons....there are three pages of raccoon stories.

Heater
01-09-2007, 15:59
Sleeveless was attacked by one. Required stitches and Rabies shots, I think. There was mention if it in a thread here.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=265128&postcount=3

Frosty
01-09-2007, 16:01
Live and let live.Whoa, whoa, WHOA!! Let's not get carried away, here.

No one wants tofu bacon. :D

MOWGLI
01-09-2007, 16:19
No one wants tofu bacon. :D

Especially when there is tofurkey or veggie dogs to be had!

PS: Somebody called me "tofu breath" yesterday. Do you think it was a compliment? :sun

Hammock Hanger
01-09-2007, 16:32
Especially when there is tofurkey or veggie dogs to be had!

PS: Somebody called me "tofu breath" yesterday. Do you think it was a compliment? :sun

Something funky about tofu bacon, but soy fakin' bacon is delis!! Tofurkey is da bomb... I have been toying with returning to the life of a veghead. I know I felt and looked better. I think I would keep the fish, no beef, pork, fowl or mice.

Jim Adams
01-09-2007, 23:54
The greater loss is the TRUTH. This is a MYTH perpetuated by the livestock industry.

From Smithsonian (http://www.catherinedold.com/fpdogs.htm)magazine;

"Ranchers also fear prairie dog invasions because of the "broken leg" phenomenon.
But that always seems to have happened to someone else. "There has never been a documented case of that happening except in John Wayne movies," says Sharps. "Those are old wives' tales." Sharps tells of posing the broken leg question at a conference in South Dakota. "I had a captive audience of a couple hundred ranchers.
I said, 'If anyone knows of a cow or a horse that has broken a leg in a prairie dog town, please raise your hand.' Nothing. Silence. It's a myth. Everyone says, 'Oh, yeah, I've heard that,' but when it comes right down to it, they can't come up with anything."

So why do ranchers continue to despise the prairie dog, in the face of all this modern research? "There is absolutely no rationale to it," sighs Sharps. "They just do it. Their daddies did it, their granddaddies did it, they are going to do it. Their minds are made up.""


Mowgli16,
I've lived in farm country almost all of my life and while I've never heard of any local cattle or horses breaking a leg I do know all of the local farmers hate ground hogs because the weight of tractors and farm equipment causes the burrows to collapse and the equipment rolls over often killing or severely injuring the farmer.:-?

geek

Socrates
01-10-2007, 00:09
Mowgli16,
I've lived in farm country almost all of my life and while I've never heard of any local cattle or horses breaking a leg I do know all of the local farmers hate ground hogs because the weight of tractors and farm equipment causes the burrows to collapse and the equipment rolls over often killing or severely injuring the farmer.:-?

geek

Is there any creature, even insect, that a rancher DOES like other than their own dog? "Death" is thier middle names. If you try hard enough, you can make an excuse to kill any animal... And some people DO. I own a gun only because idiots have them also. I had rather they never even been invented.

The Weasel
01-10-2007, 00:15
No matter all the urban/rural legends about prarie dogs or psycho raccoons, and the justification for killing either, killing wildlife on the AT - including mice - is just the ultimate antithesis of LNT ethics. I hate mice, and especially in my gear or around me when sleeping. So, on the rare occasion that I am somewhere infested, I leave. I especially appreciate shelters that have been kept clean by hikers, and have consistently found them to be mouse-free. So the question isn't how to kill the mice - or coons or skunks - but how to keep them from developing dependencies on shelter foodscraps (including even small bits of oatmeal or noodles).

The Weasel

Socrates
01-10-2007, 00:20
Another thing, I respect the way Native Americans hunted. They had respectable reasons. Have you ever watched a hunting show? I've never seen more ignorant turds in my life. They fire a bullet through some deers heart, walk over to it, pick up its lifeless head with it's toungue hanging out and say "I sure gotta tell ya BillyBob, This right here is a beautiful animal. Mother nature is just such a wonderful thing." WOW

Jim Adams
01-10-2007, 00:22
The Weasel,
HEAR, HEAR! You sir have the correct answer. When in bear country you could not survive with most of the cooking and eating practices of most people at shelters. Why not adopt those same practices for mice.
geek

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 00:22
Another thing, I respect the way Native Americans hunted. They had respectable reasons. Have you ever watched a hunting show? I've never seen more ignorant turds in my life. They fire a bullet through some deers heart, walk over to it, pick up its lifeless head with it's toungue hanging out and say "I sure gotta tell ya BillyBob, This right here is a beautiful animal. Mother nature is just such a wonderful thing." WOW

Native Americans do the same thing today too.:D

saimyoji
01-10-2007, 00:23
So the question isn't how to kill the mice - or coons or skunks - but how to keep them from developing dependencies on shelter foodscraps....



Asked and answered: burn them. Shelters that is.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 00:26
Native Americans do the same thing today too.:D

If youll notice, I purposely spoke in PAST tense... huntED... HAD... Yes, yes, I know al about the alcoholics with casinos.

Jim Adams
01-10-2007, 00:29
I'VE NEVER OWNED A CASINO!!!
geek

The Weasel
01-10-2007, 00:32
If youll notice, I purposely spoke in PAST tense... huntED... HAD... Yes, yes, I know al about the alcoholics with casinos.

Alcoholics? Irresponsible? Quel horreur!

The Weasel

copythat
01-10-2007, 00:57
my new bumper sticker: LNM :confused:










(yes, leave no mouse. :rolleyes: )

The Weasel
01-10-2007, 01:05
The Weasel,
HEAR, HEAR! You sir have the correct answer. When in bear country you could not survive with most of the cooking and eating practices of most people at shelters. Why not adopt those same practices for mice.
geek

I do, and have. I always spread my cooking bandana under my pot when I eat, to minimize food loss, and I'll do my best to pick up scraps I see on the ground, particularly my own, all things my Dad taught me when I first started in Scouts 50 years back. In that time, I've had animal approaches in campsites/shelters I've been in trhice. Two were mouse situations in dirty shelters I came to, alone, but used due to downpours. One was the public campground at Sandusky (OH) State Park, which had overflowing waste cans and an skunk infestation. I was sleeping in the open, and two skunks just walked by me, and did nothing (thank goodness), which I attribute to camp cleanliness.

On the other hand, it may have been professional courtesy.

The Weasel

Hammock Hanger
01-10-2007, 07:03
...on the other hand, it may have been professional courtesy.

The Weasel


That's cute...:banana

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-10-2007, 07:54
I note skunks have joined the discussion. I lived on the edge of an urban forest area for over a decade and had many, many dealings with skunks (even outside courtrooms ::: grins & winks at Weasel ::: :D

Skunks are not aggressive creatures that are out looking for reason a spray something - anything. When a skunk sprays, it takes several days for the skunk to build its supply of the awful smelling substance again. During that period, it is extremely open to attack. Its instincts tell it to use the spray as a last resort.

If you see one and leave it alone, you will not be sprayed. Even if you accidentally mess with one, if you back off you likely won't get sprayed. Some examples:
I tripped over one while going to my car before daylight one morning. I could see it was terrified in the moonlight. I backed off slowly and didn't get sprayed.
I came outside one morning and found my trashcan on its side and garbage everywhere. I picked up the trashcan before I realized there was a skunk inside. I laid the can back down and backed off slowly. The skunk walked away into the woods with his tail in the air, but never sprayed.
My son and two young friends, all about age 7 or 8, put a large fully molded child's swimming pool over a skunk in my yard. Being a single mom, fell to me to remove it and set the trapped critter free. I put on a disposable poncho, a trash bag over each arm and leg, and a piece of clear plastic cling wrap over my face..... the skunk did 'assume the position' for spraying, but when it realized I was not planning to attack just wobbled off into the woods.

Hammock Hanger
01-10-2007, 07:59
Our kids were really bad about shutting the back door and a young skunk waddled into our kitchen. When my husband tried to catch him and get him/her out it ran behind the refrigerator. My husband got some wood from the garage and made a maze that lead from the frig to the back door. We waited for hours for it to come out finally it did and waddled along the maze and out the backdoor. No animal was harmed in the endeavor and no human was sprayed.

The Weasel
01-10-2007, 08:47
I note skunks have joined the discussion. I lived on the edge of an urban forest area for over a decade and had many, many dealings with skunks (even outside courtrooms ::: grins & winks at Weasel ::: :D

Skunks are not aggressive creatures that are out looking for reason a spray something - anything. When a skunk sprays, it takes several days for the skunk to build its supply of the awful smelling substance again. During that period, it is extremely open to attack. Its instincts tell it to use the spray as a last resort.

If you see one and leave it alone, you will not be sprayed. Even if you accidentally mess with one, if you back off you likely won't get sprayed.

Weasels are much the same. :::winks back at FD:::

The Weasel

superman
01-10-2007, 09:33
I agree...burn their nasty old homes down (shelters). The mice stuff closes up my sinuses tight...oh yeah... that's one of the reasons I don't stay in shelters...never mind.
I was hiking along and I looked over and there was a line of skunks holding their noses, complaining about smelly thru hikers.:)

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 09:41
True story about skunks. Back in the day, 86, I was at Hawk Mtn. shelter. The old one which was in a different place. These 2 Brits were in a tent. It was just after dark, they had eaten in their tent and left the dirty pot in the vestibule. Back then the area was infested with skunks. Well later in the evening I'm in my tent and hear a lot of commotion coming from the Brits. A skunk was in the vestibule munchin' out of the pot. There's no skunks in England. They didn't know what it was. One guy whacked it with his boot and the skunk let go with a huge fart. I never heard so much laughter. The whole shelter area stunk for hours. They stunk for days.

rafe
01-10-2007, 10:02
I've seen skunk tails wagging out of pack pockets in shelters. I've heard skunk digging through my pack pockets, outside my tent. I just let 'em be. PS, congrats, Wolf. Good story. You actually composed an entire paragraph. And the only group you managed to impugn were Brits. ;)

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 10:10
"The Brits" was their trail name.

rafe
01-10-2007, 10:12
"The Brits" was their trail name.


Even better. You impugned no one. I'm impressed.;)

Gray Blazer
01-10-2007, 15:12
Another thing, I respect the way Native Americans hunted. They had respectable reasons. Have you ever watched a hunting show? I've never seen more ignorant turds in my life. They fire a bullet through some deers heart, walk over to it, pick up its lifeless head with it's toungue hanging out and say "I sure gotta tell ya BillyBob, This right here is a beautiful animal. Mother nature is just such a wonderful thing." WOW
In some cases they used to drive hundreds of buffalo over cliffs or start prarie fires to round up the animals.

Dancer
01-10-2007, 18:29
I think the single bullet thing is better than stalking or chasing the animal until it collapses out of exhaustion and fear. that was a common practice of native americans as well. Bullets are quicker, more merciful killers than say...oh...a poorly placed arrow that wounds but doesn't kill immediately. Also, it didn't take the indians long to jump on the gun bandwagon if my memory of history is correct.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 19:26
In some cases they used to drive hundreds of buffalo over cliffs or start prarie fires to round up the animals.

They hunted out of necessity for food. Today, at least in America, people hunt for sport and nothing more. The tactics they used were what I would expect for their times... They didn't have rifles. Also, they respected the spirit of the animals they killed and tried to use every part possible. Unlike today where the heads are mounted on walls and a bear skin rug is for nothing but show. Even if they had the capability, they would never explode an animal with an elephant gun and video tape it for fun. Please don't compare the Native Americans of yesterday to the ignorant white man running around today... There is no comparison.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 19:34
I think the single bullet thing is better than stalking or chasing the animal until it collapses out of exhaustion and fear. that was a common practice of native americans as well. Bullets are quicker, more merciful killers than say...oh...a poorly placed arrow that wounds but doesn't kill immediately. Also, it didn't take the indians long to jump on the gun bandwagon if my memory of history is correct.

Where did you guys get your history lessons from? Native Americans DID NOT have rifles! And of course they would prefer a rifle over chasing an animal through the woods for hours on end. Sounds to me like someone thinks they were ignorant cavemen. But I would expect nothing less from the average American. Some people love "their country" more than they respect life.

Gray Blazer
01-10-2007, 20:30
They hunted out of necessity for food. Today, at least in America, people hunt for sport and nothing more. The tactics they used were what I would expect for their times... They didn't have rifles. Also, they respected the spirit of the animals they killed and tried to use every part possible. Unlike today where the heads are mounted on walls and a bear skin rug is for nothing but show. Even if they had the capability, they would never explode an animal with an elephant gun and video tape it for fun. Please don't compare the Native Americans of yesterday to the ignorant white man running around today... There is no comparison.My instincts told me not to watch that tape (also the reaction of the 1st posters who did see it:eek: ).

Gray Blazer
01-10-2007, 20:32
The Native American Indians were and are wonderful and so is everybody else.

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 20:33
My instincts told me not to watch that tape (also the reaction of the 1st posters who did see it:eek: ).

You're a smart man unlike other small varmints like weasels and such. curiosity kills ****.:cool:

LeeF
01-10-2007, 21:06
I normally try to avoid getting into these conversations but the avalanche of stupidity in this one just wonít let me ignore it.

Modern hunters are responsible for our current, thriving levels of animal populations. Each year they contribute millions of dollars to wildlife funds through the purchase of hunting & fishing licenses and taxes on sporting goods. They are also responsible for keeping millions of acres of land forested and free of subdivisions and strip malls by once again spending millions of dollars on hunting leases and farm usage fees.

At the end of the Depression the population of whitetail deer, black bear, and wild turkeys had been hunted to near extinction in most of America by unemployed, hungry people. Following World War II it was the sport hunters who paid for wildlife biologists to study the animals, devise plans for stabilizing the populations, and reintroducing them to new areas. When you see a deer, bear, or turkey on the trail you can thank a hunter who paid the bills. Not your tax dollars, PETA, the National Park Service, or random granola crunchers. Look it up, it is a fact.

Now letís talk about the Nature American hunters. They didnít have some spiritual superiority over todayís hunter. They used every single piece because they didnít have a choice. They frequently gathered around a campfire in the winter and collectively starved. If they had the ability to kill more they would have. You canít show one example of a tribe that rejected rifles once they were available. Ignorant white man hunters indeed.

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 21:08
I normally try to avoid getting into these conversations but the avalanche of stupidity in this one just wonít let me ignore it.

Modern hunters are responsible for our current, thriving levels of animal populations. Each year they contribute millions of dollars to wildlife funds through the purchase of hunting & fishing licenses and taxes on sporting goods. They are also responsible for keeping millions of acres of land forested and free of subdivisions and strip malls by once again spending millions of dollars on hunting leases and farm usage fees.

At the end of the Depression the population of whitetail deer, black bear, and wild turkeys had been hunted to near extinction in most of America by unemployed, hungry people. Following World War II it was the sport hunters who paid for wildlife biologists to study the animals, devise plans for stabilizing the populations, and reintroducing them to new areas. When you see a deer, bear, or turkey on the trail you can thank a hunter who paid the bills. Not your tax dollars, PETA, the National Park Service, or random granola crunchers. Look it up, it is a fact.

Now letís talk about the Nature American hunters. They didnít have some spiritual superiority over todayís hunter. They used every single piece because they didnít have a choice. They frequently gathered around a campfire in the winter and collectively starved. If they had the ability to kill more they would have. You canít show one example of a tribe that rejected rifles once they were available. Ignorant white man hunters indeed.

Thank you Lee, for speaking the truth.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 21:37
I normally try to avoid getting into these conversations but the avalanche of stupidity in this one just wonít let me ignore it.

Modern blah blah blah.

WOW WOW WOW I guess I should thank all the poor people who gamble their savings away in lottery tickets for educational funding too? Thanks poor people! I like to be happy so I'm not even going to argue with your load of crapola... CRAPOLA... I've SO heard that lame argument before. Keep thinking you've got it all figured out and justify it all you want if that helps you sleep... But I won't be replying to you again. I've met your type before and honestly, I stopped taking you guys serious a loooong time ago. Nuf said. Buh bye!:D

Lone Wolf
01-10-2007, 21:47
WOW WOW WOW I guess I should thank all the poor people who gamble their savings away in lottery tickets for educational funding too? Thanks poor people! I like to be happy so I'm not even going to argue with your load of crapola... CRAPOLA... I've SO heard that lame argument before. Keep thinking you've got it all figured out and justify it all you want if that helps you sleep... But I won't be replying to you again. I've met your type before and honestly, I stopped taking you guys serious a loooong time ago. Nuf said. Buh bye!:D

Calm down, open your mind and re-read what Lee posted then research what he said. Lots of truth there. Let me direct you to www.tednugent.com and register on the talk back forum.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 22:10
Calm down, open your mind and re-read what Lee posted then research what he said. Lots of truth there. Let me direct you to www.tednugent.com (http://www.tednugent.com) and register on the talk back forum.

But I will talk with you LWolf, I'm not denying any facts. I just think the argument is a horrible way to defend hunters. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's crap. If you like killing things, just say it and go on with your day. I'd much rather hear that than someone telling me about how much "they care". For the FEW hunters that do care and see hunting as somewhat of a natural experience of killing your own food, I respect that. I use to be a hunter myself. But the average man that walks out in the woods with a gun has one goal and that's to kill for the soul purpose of killing, eating it is just a bonus as well as an excuse. Hunters aren't running around donating money to the conservation of animals and their habitat becaue they care. Licenses and fees are required so they get them to avoid a big fat fine. If I should be thanking anyone, it's the ones who setup the system so that the money does go towards conservation. And it's only the smart hunters who realize that without the animals, there's nothing to kill. And without the land, there's nowhere to hunt. He's trying to paint some warm fuzzy picture of BillyBob being concerned about wildlife and their habitat and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Also, I'm a Deist, so I can just as easily compare this to little children being raised with the idea that God loves them and there are actually things called sins. They spend their entire lives firmly believing this nonsense... The same that a hunter can believe that he's actually doing the right thing.

Skidsteer
01-10-2007, 22:39
But I will talk with you LWolf, I'm not denying any facts. I just think the argument is a horrible way to defend hunters. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's crap. If you like killing things, just say it and go on with your day. I'd much rather hear that than someone telling me about how much "they care". For the FEW hunters that do care and see hunting as somewhat of a natural experience of killing your own food, I respect that. I use to be a hunter myself. But the average man that walks out in the woods with a gun has one goal and that's to kill for the soul purpose of killing, eating it is just a bonus as well as an excuse. Hunters aren't running around donating money to the conservation of animals and their habitat becaue they care. Licenses and fees are required so they get them to avoid a big fat fine. If I should be thanking anyone, it's the ones who setup the system so that the money does go towards conservation. And it's only the smart hunters who realize that without the animals, there's nothing to kill. And without the land, there's nowhere to hunt. He's trying to paint some warm fuzzy picture of BillyBob being concerned about wildlife and their habitat and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Also, I'm a Deist, so I can just as easily compare this to little children being raised with the idea that God loves them and there are actually things called sins. They spend their entire lives firmly believing this nonsense... The same that a hunter can believe that he's actually doing the right thing.

Do some research, Socrates. Ever heard of Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Wildlife Forever, National Wild Turkey Federation, etc, etc, etc?

They aren't collecting license fees.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 22:50
Do some research, Socrates. Ever heard of Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Wildlife Forever, National Wild Turkey Federation, etc, etc, etc?

They aren't collecting license fees.

I never said that all hunters were ignorant idiots. It's just my firm belief that, through my own personal experiences, the majority of people who hunt, don't do it for the right reasons. There should be more Ted Nugents. Hell, maybe it wouldn't hurt if we all went back to that kind of lifestyle, but that's never gonna happen.

LeeF
01-10-2007, 23:00
Socrates,
I'm afraid you may need to rethink your name....

Since you will listen to Lone Wolf take his advice, calm down. I'm willing to have a logical, polite conversation. Slow down, let your hands stop shaking, it will be ok. There's no need to have a heart attack over a little difference of opinion. I'm serious. Relax. Take a couple of deep breaths. This is America and we are all still free to believe whatever we want to.
I'm not a hunter, but the facts are facts. Follow the money.

Socrates
01-10-2007, 23:07
... but the avalanche of stupidity...

That's the part I didn't appreciate. Other than that, I'm always open to discussion. When insults fly, I tend to stop listening.

Skidsteer
01-10-2007, 23:08
I never said that all hunters were ignorant idiots. It's just my firm belief that, through my own personal experiences, the majority of people who hunt, don't do it for the right reasons. There should be more Ted Nugents. Hell, maybe it wouldn't hurt if we all went back to that kind of lifestyle, but that's never gonna happen.

Well...to quote a famous punchline: You need to get out more.

Seriously, if you want to jump on folks who don't give back, then hunters as a group probably aren't the best target. :rolleyes:

Socrates
01-10-2007, 23:22
Well...to quote a famous punchline: You need to get out more.

Seriously, if you want to jump on folks who don't give back, then hunters as a group probably aren't the best target. :rolleyes:

I've grown up in the country of Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee and even lived in Los angeles... I can handle hunters, good ol boys, and anyone else who likes to dish it out. My point is that any difference in opinion will be tolerated, but insults are just lazy intelligence and I don't waste my time with a lazy mind. You were doing fine except for you opening statement and that's when I said "blah blah blah" to let you know that's how much the rest of it meant. And I get out plenty, but not right now because I'm helping to take care of my mom. Once again, another comment that just doesn't need to happen.

LeeF
01-10-2007, 23:43
Good deal Socrates,

Let's start over.
It's good to meet you and if we ever meet on the trail I'd be happy to share:
-a space in the shelter with you--no wait we discussed tearing the shelters down. Can't do that.
-a space around the campfire--no wait the leave no trace crowd doesn't want us to build fires. Can't do that.
-a shot of the special weightless vodka-- no wait that will offend someone. Can't do that.
-one of my good cigars--no wait the second hand smoke might offend someone. Can't do that.

Well anyway it's a pleasure to meet you. We can discuss hunting anytime you'd like. I like a good conversation. I promise not to bring up religion, the lottery, or facts without the resources to back them up. I won't discuss how I think someone feels or their purpose. I can't know what's in BillyBob's heart and what his intentions are. I can only judge a man by his actions. Take care.

Socrates
01-11-2007, 00:04
Take care.
Same here, you too.

Skidsteer
01-11-2007, 00:10
I've grown up in the country of Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee and even lived in Los angeles... I can handle hunters, good ol boys, and anyone else who likes to dish it out. My point is that any difference in opinion will be tolerated, but insults are just lazy intelligence and I don't waste my time with a lazy mind. You were doing fine except for you opening statement and that's when I said "blah blah blah" to let you know that's how much the rest of it meant. And I get out plenty, but not right now because I'm helping to take care of my mom. Once again, another comment that just doesn't need to happen.

Insult? What insult? :confused:

Jim Adams
01-11-2007, 01:00
Kudos to LeeF!
I am an avid hunter and I eat what I shoot. This country would be very sparse of any wildlife w/o the backing of hunters.
ps. there was a reason why the indians were nomads--they emptied an area of everything that they could use then moved BUT in their defense, (i am 1/4 native american) they had to do that to survive.
geek

Jim Adams
01-11-2007, 01:07
Good deal Socrates,

Let's start over.
It's good to meet you and if we ever meet on the trail I'd be happy to share:
-a space in the shelter with you--no wait we discussed tearing the shelters down. Can't do that.
-a space around the campfire--no wait the leave no trace crowd doesn't want us to build fires. Can't do that.
-a shot of the special weightless vodka-- no wait that will offend someone. Can't do that.
-one of my good cigars--no wait the second hand smoke might offend someone. Can't do that.

Well anyway it's a pleasure to meet you. We can discuss hunting anytime you'd like. I like a good conversation. I promise not to bring up religion, the lottery, or facts without the resources to back them up. I won't discuss how I think someone feels or their purpose. I can't know what's in BillyBob's heart and what his intentions are. I can only judge a man by his actions. Take care.

:banana LeeF,

So,,,what shelter will you be at?
geek

The Weasel
01-11-2007, 01:14
Kudos to LeeF!
I am an avid hunter and I eat what I shoot. This country would be very sparse of any wildlife w/o the backing of hunters.
ps. there was a reason why the indians were nomads--they emptied an area of everything that they could use then moved BUT in their defense, (i am 1/4 native american) they had to do that to survive.
geek

Jim:

I'm from Michigan originally, where hunting (particularly deer) is a way of life, and you seem to be the kind of 'good hunter' that I've always admired. (I don't hunt, but only out of a lack of interest. I'm not anti-hunting as much as I am "don't hunt where it will hurt the environment.")

But hunters in a lot of places hurt the sport in two ways: Those who do so irresponsibly: This includes not just poachers, but the "let's go shining for deer" types, the over-limit and undersize group, and others who bend or ignore hunting rules. They're giving the sport a bad name, and always have.

what is making a lot of it worse are the "private 'guaranteed take' clubs" that are proliferating, at least around Michigan (Dick Cheney's 'accident' was at one, I think) where the "club" fences in (with high fences) animals, makes every effort to breed overpopulation, and then lets "members" come in and "hunt" what is really a target range, with essentially guaranteed kills. That's not hunting, but very literally "shooting fish in a barrel."

But if one opposes such things, a lot of lobbies come out to make it sound like a noble sport of kings is being eliminated. When hunters realize that's not hunting, both the sport and the environment will be the better for it.

The Weasel

Jim Adams
01-11-2007, 01:27
The Weasel,
I totally agree with everything that you say! There are alot of "poor ethics" hunters out there and the sport will not survive if it continues. I don't think however that the percentage is as high as the general public thinks compared to thoughtful law abiding hunters. I am out there with this group of hunters and see it first hand. It is surprising how much they actually police themselves.
geek

Outlaw
01-11-2007, 10:45
The Weasel,
I totally agree with everything that you say! There are alot of "poor ethics" hunters out there and the sport will not survive if it continues. I don't think however that the percentage is as high as the general public thinks compared to thoughtful law abiding hunters. I am out there with this group of hunters and see it first hand. It is surprising how much they actually police themselves.
geek

I fully agree Jim. Much of the problem, IMHO lies with the news media. There are too numerous to mention good hunters, car drivers, politicians (well, to a lesser degree maybe), doctors, lawyers, movie stars, etc. but the press often focuses their attention on the illegal/unethical hunter, the DWI violator, the politician who stole taxpayers money, the doctor that screwed up an operation, the lawyer who stole his client's escrow funds, or the movies star that divorces someone or is using drugs or whatever. It is our current society that thrives off such sensationalism and festers such negative press. For every hunter (read: criminal) arrested for poaching, there are thousands who enjoy the sport in a legal, ethical, morally correct manner, but no one does a story on them that jumps out at the reader (they're typically buried in the back of the sports section).

Unfortunately, I don't have any answers to this problem, but I am convinced there are significantly more "good" hunters than "bad" ones. It is patently unfair to group them altogether under the general term "hunters" and depict this group as being some demented band of blood thirsty, trophy hunting, to-hell-with-it-all dirtbags as the press has done so many times over and over and over again.

Sorry for ranting. Just my personal thoughts/observations. I feel better now.

leeki pole
01-11-2007, 11:13
The Weasel,
I totally agree with everything that you say! There are alot of "poor ethics" hunters out there and the sport will not survive if it continues. I don't think however that the percentage is as high as the general public thinks compared to thoughtful law abiding hunters. I am out there with this group of hunters and see it first hand. It is surprising how much they actually police themselves.
geek
Well said, Jim and The Weasel. I'm a bowhunter, gave up gun hunting 10 years ago, and only hunt on my land. Many, many hunters here are good, law-abiding citizens who hunt to control the deer herd on their land. I consider myself one of those. I respect the laws and regulations of my state. I'll pass up bucks or does that are not within the guidelines of the advice of our wildlife biologists. And yes, I and my family do enjoy venison.

maxNcathy
01-11-2007, 11:51
I have killed many mice just like I have eaten many steaks and hamburgers.


I don't enjoy killing at all. Sometimes I open the door and let a bug loose outside...but then i go for a ride on my motorcycle and discover I have 2 dozen of his close buddies splattered to death on my windshield. How can anyone avoid killing in this world...some folks consider plants as lifeforms and talk to their flowers to cheer them up and make them grow.
For those animal lovers and extreme planthuggers, what would make a good sound ethical meal that they could eat in good conscience? Even water has little guys swimming to and fro!!

There is no way to avoid continuous killing....unless, of course you care to drink a final glass of hemlock.

And I will pass on that.
It's lunchtime. Will someone please pass the mouse?

Sandalwood

saimyoji
01-11-2007, 12:24
Cycle of life. Respect it, you can't avoid it.

Lilred
01-11-2007, 12:57
There is a religion in India, I think, that is called the Janes. They will gently sweep ahead of themselves as they walk, sift their flour or other grains before eating, and only eat fruit that has already fallen from trees. Pretty extreme.

I once had a mouse chew on my hair all night for nesting material. The two guys that were in the shelter didn't have much to pick from. I swatted it away but never thought to kill it. I find them quite entertaining for the most part.

Ewker
01-11-2007, 13:14
this thread reminds me of the guy who is always moving turtles and spiders out of the way so they won't get hurt. He then sneezes/blows his nose into a kleenex tissue that kills 99% of all the germs and realizes he killed something :D

rafe
01-11-2007, 13:31
There is a religion in India, I think, that is called the Janes. They will gently sweep ahead of themselves as they walk, sift their flour or other grains before eating, and only eat fruit that has already fallen from trees. Pretty extreme.

IIRC, the Sufis (Islamic subset) have a similar philosophy. I might be wrong about that. The one you're talking about is Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain).

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-11-2007, 13:36
I once had a mouse chew on my hair all night for nesting material. The two guys that were in the shelter didn't have much to pick from. I swatted it away but never thought to kill it. I find them quite entertaining for the most part.:eek: If this happens to the she-dino, you will hear noises you never dreamed a dino could make, just saying.

rafe
01-11-2007, 13:39
:eek: If this happens to the she-dino, you will hear noises you never dreamed a dino could make, just saying.


Carry a tent, for sure, FD. Just sayin'.

bfitz
01-11-2007, 13:48
I like to empty the liquid contents of a glow stick into a squirt gun, then I can shoot the mice with it and watch them streaking around the shelter all night. If you are in the right group and/or "partaking", it can be very entertaining.

The Mayor
01-11-2007, 14:39
I like to empty the liquid contents of a car battery into a squirt gun, then I can shoot the mice with it and watch them streaking around the shelter all night. If you are in the right group and/or "partaking", it can be very entertaining.
hmm..different method

Outlaw
01-11-2007, 15:27
hmm..different method

Sorry, but that is just plain sick! I can only imagine what you do to other forms of wildlife... actually, no wait, I can't!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-11-2007, 15:44
Carry a tent, for sure, FD. Just sayin'.Stealth camper, just saying :D

Socrates
01-11-2007, 16:04
Maybe if we would all just keep an eye on other hikers and call them on it when they make a mess, that would help the infestation? Is everyone on the trail too nice to say anything? Or even post signs in the shelters to say "KEEP IT CLEAN! WE DON'T WANT MICE!" Just a thought.

Skipper the Eyechild
01-11-2007, 17:32
Owning a Glock for self-defense, but against the killing of mice? It may be because I'm English, but...

Bloodroot
01-11-2007, 17:55
Maybe if we would all just keep an eye on other hikers and call them on it when they make a mess, that would help the infestation? Is everyone on the trail too nice to say anything? Or even post signs in the shelters to say "KEEP IT CLEAN! WE DON'T WANT MICE!" Just a thought.

Nope they still will be there.

Have you hiked any of the A.T. before?

Socrates
01-11-2007, 19:01
Nope they still will be there.

Have you hiked any of the A.T. before?

No, this will be my first time. But I'm glad I found WB. I didn't know that shelters were such poo.

rafe
01-11-2007, 19:09
No, this will be my first time. But I'm glad I found WB. I didn't know that shelters were such poo.


Some are, some aren't. Depends on the time of year. Depends on who's just been there and how they conducted themselves. Depends on whether the shelter is near a road or not. You just don't know what to expect, unless (like LW or Jack) you do the trail every year and have seen them all. Mice aren't the end of the world, either. I just don't like having 'em run across my face while I'm tryin' to sleep.

Bloodroot
01-11-2007, 19:21
No, this will be my first time. But I'm glad I found WB. I didn't know that shelters were such poo.

Well I'm just going to put my two cents worth in. Now I'm sure this can stir up the pot a bit as many others disagree, but when I started at Springer in April I stayed in the shelters every nite almost the whole way through Georgia. The rest of the way I stayed in my tent (except for certain areas where you had to stay in shelters (e.g. Smoky's) & inclement weather. Most of the time I didn't like staying in shelters. Cramped up sleeping with chainsaw snorers, people periodically getting up to use the privy and mice running around all over the place (and yes the have no regards/fear for you laying right there). Now some of the shelters you might not have any problems with mice at all. My personal experience, after hiking 15-20+ miles a day, setting up my tent, eating a gourmet meal of ramen and such, doing my AT chores (cleaning dishes, etc.), chit-chatting till dark, the most desirable thing for me was to get a good nites sleep. In a tent, I slept most peaceful and relaxed. I'm a tent man all the way.

Jim Adams
01-11-2007, 19:32
Maybe if we would all just keep an eye on other hikers and call them on it when they make a mess, that would help the infestation? Is everyone on the trail too nice to say anything? Or even post signs in the shelters to say "KEEP IT CLEAN! WE DON'T WANT MICE!" Just a thought.

:( do you know how much ranting and raving you will hear if you post signs ANYWHERE on the trail?!!!!!!! it's usually that same old selfish feeling " that is a great idea as long as I can't see them":-?
geek

karo
01-11-2007, 20:53
this thread reminds me of the guy who is always moving turtles and spiders out of the way so they won't get hurt. He then sneezes/blows his nose into a kleenex tissue that kills 99% of all the germs and realizes he killed something :D
:bananaEwker, I was just thinking of the same commercial, LOL. Some people just take things too far!:banana

Ewker
01-11-2007, 20:55
Hey karo, remember the mouse traps at Roan Shelter..snap,snap,snap.

glitch
01-11-2007, 22:01
If the mice keep to their side of the shelter and let me keep to mine, we won't be having any problems. First one that touches me goes down...and then will be displayed as a warning to his fellows. As far as I'm concerned I've got opposable thumbs for a reason...I'm a higher form of life. Yeah, they deserve to live and all but last time I checked wolves weren't all that concerned about what the deer they were munching on felt. However, on the other side of the coin I'm more than willing to my part to ensure that 'my' space in the shelter will be clean enough that they'll have no reasons to bug me. In closing...the cat wasn't the only thing that curiosity killed... :D