View Full Version : I Hate Having My Comments removed from Straight Forward Fourm
JimSproul
01-09-2007, 16:30
This was posted, I thought I would move it here so another lively WB discssuion can go on without sending the original topic down a rabbit trail. I have left the poster name off but they are welcome to blast away.
- JimSproul
PS - I can't edit this forum!!! :)
MY story is Jim Sproul is allowed to edit anything HE deems does not fit AGAIN ? After he left on his hike I thought the STORY was over. Can he be impeached or write in dismissal ?
Sorry Jim, nothing personal just dont like your edit privilages and thats the end of that story.
(i used the word 'story' 3 times, or now does it have to be the "right" kind of story?) FYI. Maybe I should post this when JS is not on line. Not sure why Jims edits get under my skin, if it is the way attroll, dc and Rock want it, so be it and sorry for rattlling the cage.
Pacific Tortuga
01-09-2007, 16:32
Thank You, maybe I was wrong about you.
TJ aka Teej
01-09-2007, 16:40
Jim, why not just PM the poster(s) and discuss this with them in private?
4eyedbuzzard
01-09-2007, 16:53
And lose out on all that public humiliation and peer pressure? That's downright un-American.:rolleyes:
saimyoji
01-09-2007, 17:00
I don't mind being edited on the SF forum, but I HATE READING THAT STUPID MESSAGE so many times. Can't you go back to the one line message you used to use? :mad:
JimSproul
01-09-2007, 17:09
I would love to have the time to read them all and PM everybody but the wages are small. An some comments are not worth the effort. We ARE only talking about one forum.
Is this better (in bold below)?
This message has been edited due to deviation from stated intent of this topic. It's a judgement call. See removed postings HERE (http://www.hikenow.com/edits.html)
virtualfrog
01-09-2007, 17:15
I'm glad my comments were removed from Straight Forward - I didn't realize I was swerving in that forum :(. Could we see about getting it's color changed to blue or something, a la the ladies forum? Some visual for those who use the 'New Posts' feature and don't necessarily remember which forum they're in?
D'Artagnan
01-09-2007, 17:20
I'm glad my comments were removed from Straight Forward - I didn't realize I was swerving in that forum :(. Could we see about getting it's color changed to blue or something, a la the ladies forum? Some visual for those who use the 'New Posts' feature and don't necessarily remember which forum they're in?
That's a great suggestion and one I think would help everyone concerned. My guess is most deviants (is that the right word for those that deviate?:rolleyes:) don't even realize they're doing it.
Gray Blazer
01-09-2007, 17:23
And lose out on all that public humiliation and peer pressure? That's downright un-American.:rolleyes:Good one again. Having a different color or something there to remind you would be good.
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 18:03
Jim Sproul has graciously volunteered to help out in the Straight Forward Forum as a Moderator. Along with Doctari and Tha Wookie. They have been asked by the Administrators of this site to do exactly what they are doing in removing posts that go off topic. All they are required to do, is delete and/or edit out off topic posts from the threads in the Straight Forward Forum.
It appears to me that Jim Sproul is going the extra mile to ensure that y'all words are preserved somewhere. So what's your big problem with him? Hmmm? I don't take that kind of time, nor would I even dream of it. The rules are quite clear for the Straight Forward Forum, if you don't like them, don't post in there.
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 18:04
Good one again. Having a different color or something there to remind you would be good.
That's something I'll bring up to Attroll. I thought at one time it was a different color, but I could be wrong.
Color would help as a reminder. I rarely look at the category the question was placed in. If it is a backpacking questions. I answer it. Many of us rarely post in the political forums and a "color coded" system could help as well.
But, many people, myself included, are often left scratching their head on why some comments were removed. An obvious political statement, slur or something totally off the beaten path seems appropriate. But seems even the "wheat" is now getting thrown out with the "chaff"
We were talking about crowds on the AT and I paraphrased that old chestnunt from Yogi Berra: "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded".
It was removed. It was straight-up joke (though appropriate), can see why. May not agree with the decision, but can at least see the logic somewhat.
However, other people mentioned the ole "pack under the feet trick" in a different thread and those posts were removed. As usual for me, I had a little joke mixed in with the serious stuff. I can't speak for the others.
In the bio section, many posts were removed (None of mine). Not sure of the content, but suspect some were not too far off topic.
I understand Jim can have a difficult job at times. But, I think it may be good to ease up a bit. If it was just me or some other person bringing up this issue, could see. But when several people bring it up?
So Jim, glad you are "stepping up to the plate". I managed an e-list for three+ years myself for my outdoor group. I understand that judgement calls have to be made at times. And it can be a hard job that is sometimes thankless. Let me thank you for the work. Seriously!
But I also learned (sometimes the hard way!), what seems to make sense to you may not make sense to the community you serve. Compromise has to be made at times.
Many of us appreciate you helping out the WB admins. But you may want to think about what is "wheat" and what is "chaff".
respectfully,
Paul Mags
It is not my intention to disparage you, just some food for thought.
Jim Sproul has graciously volunteered to help out in the Straight Forward Forum as a Moderator.
And it is appreciated. But some of the "off topic" stuff seems to be on-topic and edited for unknown reasons.
As I mentioned, I ran an e-list for my outdoor group for 3+ years. I know how hard it is to make judgement calls. Phew! Jim is taking a load off you and the other admins. Thanks Jim! (no sarcasm.)
OTOH, as I learned the hard way, when various people make the same consistent complaint, it may be good to listen and pay attention. Take the words, modify how you operate a bit and keep a smooth running group.
again, just my .05 worth. Well, maybe it is worth .00. :)
ultimately it is up to the people who run the place.
Just food for thought.
Paul Magnanti
JimSproul
01-09-2007, 18:17
Thanks dixicritter!
I have not been saving messages to date but will begin to do so. We will see if it helps. I would hate to inadvertently destroy some tidbit of life changing wisdom.
:-?
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 18:22
OK I see what the problem is now.
The intent of the Straight Forward Forum is for the specific question that the opening post is asking be all that is addressed.
As in the example of the thread you mention, the opening post specifically wanted to know "A) if you are tenting, what do you do with the pack at night? and B) If you are tenting and it rains overnight, should you dry it off at all in the morning before packing it up? What if it's still raining and you can't wait any longer?"
Now, could your post have been a specific answer to either of those questions? In my judgment, I would have left it as it was a backpacking answer that seemed to be on topic. However, my experience is almost non-existent and I fully admit that. So therefore I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to things that appear to be legitimate backpacking advice answers. Those with more experience would know better than I if your answer was specific enough to be on topic or not.
Does that make sense?
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 18:26
Thanks dixicritter!
I have not been saving messages to date but will begin to do so. We will see if it helps. I would hate to inadvertently destroy some tidbit of life changing wisdom.
:-?
You know what, I really don't see that as necessary. Maybe what you should do is adopt my way of thinking as I posted above. If it appears to be legit backpacking advice that could be on topic, just leave it be. Edit out the stuff that gets way off topic, and just plain silly.
Does that sound like a fair compromise to everyone?
Does that make sense?
It does indeed, but being too cautious can leave out some legit info as well.
Nothing life changing, but if someone is concerned that everytime they post there is a good chance their info may be edited out, they may think twice about posting. Hard to have a useful discussion when some useful comments are taken out. Brings a disconnect in the discussion. And if more people with the knowledge base are hesitant to add to the discussion, well, the discussion is poorer.
In any case, hope these posts do not come across as critical. I'be been there myself! [1] Just having a discussion about some concerns people have, myself included.
all the best,
PM
[1] The e-mail has a classified section for "outdoor gear" and housing ads. Trying to tell people that their television, composting worms and old furniture is not "outdoor gear" proved to be interesting at times! My favorite one was when a person told me that airline tickets really are outdoor gear! :) Always told the we are not Craig's List!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 19:05
I will add my vote for the straight forward section to be a different color. I have mistakenly brought in info I would not have added several times before I realized I was in the SF forum. I usually go back aned edit the posts myself when I realize it as the mods here have more than enough to do.
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 19:47
I went in a looked and I knew I wasn't crazy, the forum is a ever so slightly different shade of green. However it is not different enough to really be able to tell at a glance that you are in the Straight Forward Forum unless you are looking for it.
Maybe a nice earth tone tan or something?
Sometimes thread starters in the Straight Foreward are not questions that work well with the rules in place. I could see the "hiking poles or hiking stick" thread becoming a pain in the rear to moderate. I was just throwing this point out there since we were talking about straight foreward problems.
4eyedbuzzard
01-09-2007, 19:59
Good one again. Having a different color or something there to remind you would be good.
A color change would be a good idea, but some will undoubtably find fault with that too. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
Sarcasm is just one of the many free services I offer.:D
copythat
01-09-2007, 20:12
I went in a looked and I knew I wasn't crazy, the forum is a ever so slightly different shade of green. However it is not different enough to really be able to tell at a glance that you are in the Straight Forward Forum unless you are looking for it.
Maybe a nice earth tone tan or something?
lavendar, to go with dino's lovely blush.
back on topic, i think color could help, but i don't think it will correct the natural swerve of any thread. if there are rules, people will test them. and break them. (i know i do, often carelessly, seldom maliciously.) we will always need jims, as much as we don't want to acknowledge it.
Seems like a lot of extra work for the moderators. I would think specific questions get answered within a few posts. After that well.....
Couldn't you just entirely delete the posts that are off topic? It is kinda annoying to click on a thread only to read six times in a row that the post had been deleted. I always want to know why it was deleted. What was said that I'm not allowed to read?
I like the color coded idea. When I read that the posts had been deleted, it took me a minute to realize I was in the straight forward forum. I never look at what forum I'm reading or replying too. Even when I click on the thread of the female forum, I don't know I'm there till I see the red.
saimyoji
01-09-2007, 20:32
I would love to have the time to read them all and PM everybody but the wages are small. An some comments are not worth the effort. We ARE only talking about one forum.
Is this better (in bold below)?
This message has been edited due to deviation from stated intent of this topic. It's a judgement call. See removed postings HERE (http://www.hikenow.com/edits.html)
Yes, I like it. I do so appreciate your efforts, and recall the hubub when this first started. Change is a good thing, the site seems to be moving in a positive direction lately. You're all doing a great job, keep it up. :sun
The Weasel
01-09-2007, 20:36
Jim, I think you do a good job, even when you don't. Someone has to make decisions, and often that means that some - or even all - of those affected don't agree with you. That usually will mean you're doing the job you're supposed to, and even when you make mistakes, having you make the majority of calls as "good ones" makes things work better. So, regardless of what you do, thanks.
As for it being fun, remember the Boy Scout Corrollary to Murphy's Law: "No good deed ever goes unpunished."
The Weasel
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 20:38
It's been done both ways and we've gotten crap for both Lilredmg. If we out and out delete the posts folks yell and scream that their posts have just disappeared and that's not fair. If we edit the posts to explain then others aren't happy about having to read the message over and over that the posts were edited for being off topic. We're sort of in a no win situation here.
So is there a 24 step program for L. Wolf's drinkin/hiking problem or not?
Sorry if I started all this crap' didn't pay attention to what forum I was in.
I went in a looked and I knew I wasn't crazy, the forum is a ever so slightly different shade of green. However it is not different enough to really be able to tell at a glance that you are in the Straight Forward Forum unless you are looking for it.
Maybe a nice earth tone tan or something?
yellow with black strips might be appropriate possibly with "CAUTION DIRECT ANSWERS ONLY" somewhere on the screen
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 20:47
So is there a 24 step program for L. Wolf's drinkin/hiking problem or not?
Sorry if I started all this crap' didn't pay attention to what forum I was in.
woodsy, I don't think L. Wolf wants to cure his hiking problem. ;)
As for how this started, it's an on going thing that started when the Straight Forward Forum began and will most likely continue because we can't make everyone happy all the time. So don't sweat it. :)
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 20:49
yellow with black strips might be appropriate possibly with "CAUTION DIRECT ANSWERS ONLY" somewhere on the screen
LOL.... I love it HOI! I'll bring that up to Attroll immediately! :banana
yellow with black strips might be appropriate possibly with "CAUTION DIRECT ANSWERS ONLY" somewhere on the screen
But, I think that's partof the problem. Even the direct answers are getting edited.
Suspect many of us (myself included) will be less likely to post in the "Straight forward" forums. If what we post is something we honestly believe is a direct answer and then gets deleted...well, can be frustrating figuring out what constitutes a direct answer!
Dixie's answer is probably best. If it seems "on topic" it probably is... If a question is asked about shoes and a post is made about shoes I think most people would say it is on topic. Anything else just a tad "persnickety".
Really doesn't matter inthe end, I suppose. It is just more a PITA and limits how useful a forum can be.
YMMV. My .05 HYOH Blah. Blah. Blah.
We're sort of in a no win situation here.
Yup, I'd get rid of it. Not the forum, just the rule. Save yourself some aggravation.
OK I see what the problem is now.
The intent of the Straight Forward Forum is for the specific question that the opening post is asking be all that is addressed.
As in the example of the thread you mention, the opening post specifically wanted to know "A) if you are tenting, what do you do with the pack at night? and B) If you are tenting and it rains overnight, should you dry it off at all in the morning before packing it up? What if it's still raining and you can't wait any longer?"
Now, could your post have been a specific answer to either of those questions? In my judgment, I would have left it as it was a backpacking answer that seemed to be on topic. However, my experience is almost non-existent and I fully admit that. So therefore I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to things that appear to be legitimate backpacking advice answers. Those with more experience would know better than I if your answer was specific enough to be on topic or not.
Does that make sense?
Yes Dixie, you are not prone to overzealousness. ;)
Yes Dixie, you are not prone to overzealousness. ;)
Most of the time, anyway. :D
The Weasel
01-09-2007, 21:02
Yup, I'd get rid of it. Not the forum, just the rule. Save yourself some aggravation.
Dixi: Let the deletions happen. All of us will complain, but over time, we'll figure out how to stay "on topic." If one of us sees a post deleted, it is VERY easy to start a new thread, and while yes, it's frustrating to see one message go away, it's usually not hard to recreate it. As for people wanting to know what was deleted, don't worry about that either. I saw a huge bunch deleted (by you) in the law forum, and while I wondered, I felt confidence in all of you that it was reasonable. This isn't a democracy, and as long as we trust you, Rock and Troll, all of us should roll with the occasional punch from you guys. And I think we all do. (Trust you, and get punched now and then!)
The Weasel
easy for you to say the Weasel, you're not doing the work.
dixicritter
01-09-2007, 21:03
Mags, People make mistakes. No one is perfect, and I know I've made my share. However to allow that to keep you from posting seems a tad sad to me. I can understand where you are coming from, because just about every time I've posted something on these forums I've had my throat jumped down for one reason or another. But I keep coming back for more, and I'll keep coming back no matter how utterly frustrating it gets.
I hope you'll take a second to realize just how difficult it is around here. You say you've been in our shoes before, so how about a little compasion for someone who's just trying to help out an overworked Admin staff? Take a minute to look around the site and see just what we (and right now the majority of that falls on my shoulders with SGT Rock out of the country and Attroll working a full time job) have to deal with. I welcome the help!
M so how about a little compasion for someone who's just trying to help out an overworked Admin staff? T
DC,
I thanked Jim, recongnized how hard a job it can be, and asked for him maybe to take a step back.
All in all, thought I wrote some well reasoned and understanding posts. What more can I do?
Just saying if someone has to worry if legitimate advice and discussion is being deleted, the outcome may be that a person is less likely to post discussion and advice. Really..why bother to post something only to have it gone?
I like your idea: If it seems on-topic, it probably is. If a question is about shoes and the answer is about shoes, it should stay. IF the question is about shoes and the answer is how George W. Bush is causing all the problems..well then, that's a no brainer. Take a moment to think about what is off and on-topic before pulling the trigger.
Anyway, just saying that the all or nothing approach to a "straight forward" discussion may be counter productive. The compromise you proposed probably would work well.
all the best,
PM
Dixi: Let the deletions happen. All of us will complain, but over time, we'll figure out how to stay "on topic."
I jsut think what is "on topic" should be a bit more clarified as well as not be so dogmatic. Shoes to shoes..good! Shoes to Bill Clinton is evil..bad!
OK..I gotta go. Dinner to cook, a slideshow to watch and a pint or two at happy hour to drink. :sun
http://www.mountainsunpub.com/
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-09-2007, 21:25
Threadjack:
{{{ DixieCritter }}} We all love and respect you. Glad you got some help with managing us unruly trail trash types.
End Threadjack
The Weasel
01-09-2007, 22:07
Dixi -
What some forget - and I've been there in other ways in other places - is that when a pitcher throws a ball, he/she puts a lot of work into it. Sometimes the umpire makes a mistake - sometimes, it makes a big difference - but someone has to make "the call." I don't think there are a lot of "bad calls" made by you guys, although I know you get more "boos" than perhaps you should. Just keep making them. We'll learn. Mostly.
The Weasel
Gray Blazer
01-09-2007, 22:14
Now let's all sing Kum Ba Ya! Thank God you don't delete every ridiculous thing I say. I love talking to the people on this site. Some people need to be less thin skinned and thick headed, but, isn't that true in all society? I thank everybody for the extensive expert knowlege right here on this site as well as the hilarity. Everytime I got deleted it was because of the specific thread and me just happily answering/ribbing (what I was doing today when I got deleted for responding to LW's AAA type intro of himself) a fellow WBer and not even realizing what forum I was in. A deeper contrasting color is a great idea. Another good thing about this site is the friendly way we can work things out WITH the help of our very friendly hosts and moderators. Does that happen on other forums? I don't know, I only hang out at WB. I seriously doubt that happens elsewhere. People, in the true sense of LNT, don't leave your trash on ATroll, Rock or Dixie (and those other moderators or this site.