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TJ aka Teej
01-11-2007, 00:28
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12268&catid=member&imageuser=314



http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=3971&c=550

Touch of Grey
01-11-2007, 06:58
Okay, I give! The first one looks as if it has a diamond shaped head which if memory from survival training says stay away I might or am poisonous and even being a juvenile they are dangerous. The second lacks the distinctive diamond head and so is a safe or relatively so one. Even non-poisonous snakes though do bite. Mike of 'Dirty Jobs' on cable found that out researching Lake Erie Water snakes and did a show on them which aired this past year.

Other than that, I would guess a juvenile timber rattler for the first and not even worry about the second as it is a non-problem in the grand scheme of things.

How'd I do coach?

TOG

Groucho
01-11-2007, 07:13
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12268&catid=member&imageuser=314



http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=3971&c=550


Not sure about the first, but for the second, Eastern Garter Snake came to mind. I googled it; must be a twin (http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLandingES/Ecology/mpages/eastern_garter_snake.htm)

MOWGLI
01-11-2007, 07:25
Neither species is of the venomous variety. That is for certain.

Garter & Ribbon snakes can be tough to tell apart, and I don't have my field guides with me.

jlb2012
01-11-2007, 08:32
I think that they are both Eastern Garter Snakes

Dances with Mice
01-11-2007, 08:50
I really can't tell from the photo, but could the first one be a hognose? The rough scales and the description of how it stood its ground fit.

4eyedbuzzard
01-11-2007, 09:30
There are six types of deadly snakes: big ones, little ones, long ones, short ones, live ones, and dead ones. All deadly.:D (Told to me by a friend who has "issues" with the creatures.)

Old Grouse
01-11-2007, 10:32
Older veterans may remember the admonition given to soldiers just before shipping out: "There are 100 varieties of snake in Viet Nam. 99 are poisonous and the other one eats you whole." Not environmentally friendly, but everyone got the point.

TurkeyBacon
01-11-2007, 10:54
First and foremost I can tell you what they are NOT. Poisonous. That is not a triangular head and they to not have strong eye brows or pits next to their nostrils. NOT POISONOUS. They are not hognose snakes either. Hognose noses are so upturned its obvious.
The first one is a real bad photo for identifying it. Chances are its a garter snake.
I thought the second one was a brown snake (Storeria dekayi) at first, but after looking at my guide, I'm not sure. I'm still guessing a brown first, and then a garter next.
So how did I do? What are they? (kidding...)
TB

bulldog49
01-11-2007, 11:31
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks, but the first snake does appear to have a diamond shaped head and it appears to have pits next to it's nostrils.

VictoriaM
01-11-2007, 12:47
The first is an Easten Hognose. They are slightly venomous, but they are not known to bite. I've picked up wild hognose many a time and never been bitten. When threatened they will often play dead.

The second is a little harder, but I'm almost certain it's a garter snake. I'm not used to that particular color phase, but it's got the distinctive striping and checkers, so I'm pretty certain that's what it is.

Snakes are the one thing I'm claim expertise in. I've kept pet snakes (often wild caught) for ten years, and used to work with a rehabber who cared for wild and pet snakes.

TurkeyBacon
01-11-2007, 13:46
That is NOT an eastern hognose snake. I always heard they were not poisonous but did find one reference indicating they might be. They appear to have rear facing fangs which means you need to be in the process of being swallowed to get injected (not bit... swallowed).
http://www.fcps.edu/StratfordLandingES/Ecology/mpages/eastern_hognose_snake.htm
There is not an upturned nose but a well rounded nose in the pic in question.
Its also got two nostrils but not two nostrils and two more pits (four total holes in the nose). The pits (hence the name pit vipers) can detect heat. So they see the world we see and the see what has heat (like a mouse) and what doesn't have heat.
http://www.desertusa.com/may96/du_rattle.html
That is a pic of a rattlsnake with a nice diamond shapped head, sharp eyebrow ridges, cateyes and four hole in the nose.
The last factor that definately makes that a small harmless snake is looking at the size of the leaves in the background... The snake is quite small. Could it be a juvenile? Sure, but it doesn't have any other caracteristics of a poisounous or hognose snake.
Sorry all, the dang zoology degree is great for getting into pointless arguments,
TB

TurkeyBacon
01-11-2007, 13:49
Oh yah... the second one is not a brown snake. After looking at more pics online, its most likely another garter snake.
TB

Desert Lobster
01-11-2007, 14:03
I thought one of the pictures would be of Jack and the other of Minnesota.

TJ aka Teej
01-11-2007, 14:11
Thanks all. I'm still no good at naming snakes, as they were just 'garden' or 'wood' snakes to my Dad.

Jack Tarlin
01-11-2007, 15:31
Second is almost certainly a Garter; the first is almost certainly NOT a Hognose.

Will try and get back to you on this.

Old Grouse
01-11-2007, 16:20
Some decent photos here for comparison: http://www.esf.edu/PUBPROG/brochure/snakes/snakes.htm

MOWGLI
01-11-2007, 16:32
Hognose Snakes are not venomous.

VictoriaM
01-11-2007, 16:40
I'll admit I could be mistakne on the first. The pic is at a bad angle for looking at the head, but it sures looks like a hognose to me, and I've seen plenty. Just because the color does not match other pics of hognose doesn't mean it isn't one. Doesn't mean it is one, either. A better picture would help.

Hognose snakes are mildly venomous: http://www.herpnet.net/bite/

MOWGLI
01-11-2007, 16:55
Victoria:

Thanks for the info on the Hognose. I knew nothing of the controversy regarding whether or not Hognose snakes are venomous. They are not classified as venomous in any of my field guides, and I have handled them in the field without incident.

It appears that there is some controversy about whether or not they are "technically" venomous. Interesting stuff. Here's some info I just came across.

http://www.hognose.com/pages/venomous.htm

adamkrz
01-11-2007, 17:04
Both are garter snakes 100% sure,My son is studying to be a herpetolgist and we have a housefull of different kinds of snakes,Also garder snakes vary with their color and can bite but also secrete a musty smell when handled.

VictoriaM
01-11-2007, 17:11
The venom is so mild and bites are so rare that it would only be harmful to the snakes to classify them as venomous, IMO. Any wandering snake is in danger of a shovel beheading as it is, the "venomous" label would make them more of a target. I'd hate to see that happen to the Hognose...I have a huge soft spot for them. The first snake I ever held was a hognose (actually, a handful of babies when I was about five). They're such harmless critters.

adamkrz
01-11-2007, 17:22
It's a shame that when many people see a snake their first thoughts are to kill it,They will never bother you unless you try to handle them and even then they may not.

The only way I can get my son on a hike is to search for snakes at areas they seem to gather.

slacklinejoe
01-11-2007, 17:43
While I don't think I can classify them any more accurantely than has already been done, no one has mentioned pupil shape as part of the classifications. That's a pretty useful method of narrowing down venomnous or not with the exceptions of species from the cobra family (corral snake).

Bloodroot
01-11-2007, 18:05
Both are garter snakes 100% sure,My son is studying to be a herpetolgist and we have a housefull of different kinds of snakes,Also garder snakes vary with their color and can bite but also secrete a musty smell when handled.

Likewise I have extensively studied herpetology. They are both garter snakes. Variation bewteen the two in color are do to location.

icemanat95
01-11-2007, 20:01
I like having snakes around, they're fun. I'm leery about the rebound of rattlesnakes in the Northeast (yes they are starting to expand their range out of the tiny pockets they still inhabit along the CT River Valley). Especially since I live on the edge of the Ct. River Valley. But really, I'm none to worried about it as I lived in Rattlesnake Country for 5 months on the AT and only ran into Rattlesnakes a grand total of three or four times plus one copperhead. They don't want to mess with me, I don't want to mess with them, and as long as I don't do anything stupid or careless it isn't a big deal.

Monkeyboy
01-11-2007, 23:03
I'd say the first is a common garter snake and the second is an eastern garter snake.

Common garter http://frogsandsnakes.homestead.com/garter.html
(look at the coloring at the bottom picture where the snake is eating a newt.)

Eastern garter http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Resources/reptiles/egart.htm


It definately isn't a ribbon snake.....they are usually solid in color except for the three lines, which #2 is mottled.

highway
01-12-2007, 08:29
I've no clue. I'd just walk around both, just in case:D

iamscottym
01-12-2007, 09:05
Wow, I'm surprised that so few people recognize these snakes without having to look them up. I figured most backpackers got started like I did wandering around the woods looking for critters as a youngin'.

latte
01-12-2007, 09:07
I am not a studying herpetologist, but the snakes are both garter snakes (as mentioned above). Depending on what part of the east you live in, they can have different patterns. The snake also does not have the vertical pupils of venomous snakes. I read that if a snake has vertical pupils, like cats, then they are venomous. Non venomous snakes have round pupils. Of course this only works on photos or dead snakes. If you are that close and it's live, you run the risk of getting your nose bit!!:eek:

iamscottym
01-12-2007, 09:12
Nah, it's pretty easy to recognize a snake's eyes from a ways off. Pit Vipers (rattle snakes, copperheads, adders, etc) also have diamond shaped heads making it even easier to recognize a venomous snake from a distance.

mikecordes
01-12-2007, 17:31
Both of the snakes are Thamnophis sertalis ( eastern garter snake).

Monkeyboy
01-12-2007, 23:28
Both of the snakes are Thamnophis sertalis ( eastern garter snake).


...actually Thamnophis sertalis sertalis.....but that would be getting a little too picky....:D

Bloodroot
01-12-2007, 23:55
...actually Thamnophis sertalis sertalis.....but that would be getting a little too picky....:D

Sertalis.....spelled sirtalis

Actually the indication of red between the dorsal and lateral stripes would make it Thamnophis Sirtalis parietalis (red-sided garter snake). Like the Eastern Garter Snake (Thamnophis Sertalis sertalis), the Red-Sided Garter Snake is asubspecies of the Common Garter Snake.

That would be getting a little more picky.:D

Doctari
01-14-2007, 02:00
I'm no expert, but I am sure I agree that #2 is a garter snake.

From what I have been told (by the head snake guy at Cinti Zoo) Garter snakes are indeed venomous, BUT you would litterally have to stick a finger down the throat of one to actually get bit by the toxic fangs, he said the chances of a poisonous bit from a garter snake is about 1 in 10 billion or so. Said they are called "Rear fanged" snakes. He may well have been pulling my leg, but I never knew him to joke when it came to snakes.

At last count, I have about 5 garter snakes living in my yard. Great critters.


BTW: getting bit by one still hurts, venom or not :p


Doctari.

Bloodroot
01-14-2007, 10:13
I'm no expert, but I am sure I agree that #2 is a garter snake.

From what I have been told (by the head snake guy at Cinti Zoo) Garter snakes are indeed venomous, BUT you would litterally have to stick a finger down the throat of one to actually get bit by the toxic fangs, he said the chances of a poisonous bit from a garter snake is about 1 in 10 billion or so. Said they are called "Rear fanged" snakes. He may well have been pulling my leg, but I never knew him to joke when it came to snakes.

At last count, I have about 5 garter snakes living in my yard. Great critters.


BTW: getting bit by one still hurts, venom or not :p


Doctari.

I think he was pulling your leg. Garter snakes have rear fangs, but they are not poisonous. Maybe he is considering E. Coli (whatever number it is) which lives in the mouths all mammals (including us!) and reptiles. It aids in the intitial digestion of food.

The rear fangs of a garter snake and many other snakes are used for two reasons:

1. To keep the food moving in the right direction and prevent it from popping back out of its mouth.

2. In certain instances (like the Eastern Hognose snake) it is used to deflate amphibians (like toads and frogs) to make the meal a bit smaller.

saimyoji
01-14-2007, 11:58
2. In certain instances (like the Eastern Hognose snake) it is used to deflate amphibians (like toads and frogs) to make the meal a bit smaller.


And good for popping eggs.

Michele
01-14-2007, 12:55
Well now that we have so many snake experts in one place.....question. I've handled LARGE snakes (python wrapped around my body at a petting zoo sort of thing), but as for snakes you encounter on the trail. If you "had" to pick one up....is the best way to gently step on it's neck (right behind the head) and then make sure you have control of the head w/one hand and use the other hand to pick up the body? Don't plan on doing this...but have always wondered.

VictoriaM
01-14-2007, 13:32
I would never step on a snake's neck, even gently. One little slip means a dead or injured snake. The best option is, of course, to walk around the snake and leave it alone. The second best would be to find a large branch and gently lift the snake off the trail. I wouldn't advise anyone unfamiliar with snakes to try to pick one up (I wouldn't even advise moving one with a branch unless you are absolutely positive that it's not venomous). Even a non-venomous snake can and will bite, and they can do more damage than you might think.

VictoriaM
01-14-2007, 13:34
By a large branch, I mean a long one. The better keep your hand as far from the snake as possible.

Monkeyboy
01-15-2007, 15:19
I would question as to why anyone HAS to pick up a snake........

If it is on the trail, it will scury off soon enough after seeing you....

chelko
01-15-2007, 18:29
The first one is a pine snake or sometimes called a bull snake (pituophis melanoleucus) there are several varieties around the country, nothern pine, southern pine, bull, sonora gopher snake. their coloring and patters can be different depending on their habitat sometimes being a solid dark grey or black. The second one is an eastern garter snake.

BS in Wildlife Biology, Appalachian State 1985 GO APPS!

saimyoji
01-15-2007, 21:10
The first one is a pine snake or sometimes called a bull snake (pituophis melanoleucus) there are several varieties around the country, nothern pine, southern pine, bull, sonora gopher snake. their coloring and patters can be different depending on their habitat sometimes being a solid dark grey or black. The second one is an eastern garter snake.

BS in Wildlife Biology, Appalachian State 1985 GO APPS!


Check out the pine snake eggs on the left in this pic.

http://www.kingsnake.com/louisiana/pics/eggs.jpg

Welly®
01-15-2007, 22:20
A dead snake can't bite you.

When in doubt snuff it out.

MOWGLI
01-15-2007, 22:33
A dead snake can't bite you.

When in doubt snuff it out.

:welcome Welly. I see you're from New York, where I lived for many years. I've seen many snakes on the AT in New York, including Timber Rattlers and Copperheads. Hikers should refrain from killing wildlife on the trail - and that includes snakes. If you kill a Timber Rattler in New York, it is a serious offense - as it should be.

Welly®
01-15-2007, 22:40
:welcome Welly. I see you're from New York, where I lived for many years. I've seen many snakes on the AT in New York, including Timber Rattlers and Copperheads. Hikers should refrain from killing wildlife on the trail - and that includes snakes. If you kill a Timber Rattler in New York, it is a serious offense - as it should be.

Agreed but sometimes needs must. You'd have to be seriously unlucky to get caught too.

Thanks for the welcome by the way.

MOWGLI
01-17-2007, 10:02
Welly, I'll add in closing that Timber Rattlers are a hikers friend. Without them, we'd likely have many thousands of homes built in Sterling Forest along the AT in New York. I know - because I was involved in the public effort to create Sterling Forest State Park. The last 500 acres that the state acquired in November, was done because rattlesnake snake dens essentially halted the final proposed development.

If you should happen to encounter a Timber Rattler, consider yourself lucky. They are beautiful and complex creatures. Take a photo at a safe distance, and give the critter the wide berth that it deserves.