CCF / HH SuperShelter idea

[BirchBark]

I'm sure this has been tried and discussed to death already, but an idea came to me just now involving my interest in keeping warm in my HH using the SuperShelter system, a sleeping bag and Therm-a-rest pad. Essentially, I'm trying to think my way out of needing to buy two cold weather systems in one year.

Here it is:

Place the Therm-a-rest pad between the SS's undercover and foam insulation layers. In my mind this might accomplish two things. (A) improve bottom insulation cheaply, and (B) ease entrance/exit hassles experienced with a pad kept inside the hammock.


Thoughts?

[rpettit]

Are you going to leave the air valve open on you therma-rest? Is it a full length pad. I have a HHSS and used additional open cell foam padding to keep my bottom side warm.

[BirchBark]

Are you going to leave the air valve open on you therma-rest? Is it a full length pad. I have a HHSS and used additional open cell foam padding to keep my bottom side warm.


The Therma-Rest is not inflatable, but rather closed-cell foam.

[hammock engineer]

Correct if I am wrong, but aren't you basically just gaining very little over just using the thermarest? The SS pad is not very thick to start with. I guess you would be adding some warmth with the SS enclosure and the pad is a little wider. I'm not trying to talk bad about the SS, just what I would do in your place.

I have used just a cheap ccp from walmart down to 30 degrees. I think if I would of added a sit pad under my butt, I could have went colder.

Is it the thermarest with the egg create shape? I can't remember but I think Rock made a good point about the egg create shape only insulateing to the thinnest part. I haven't tested this so I can't speak for it.

[cargousa]

The only problem I see with that (and mind you I have no experience with the SS) is that foam pads do not shape to your body very well when you lay in the hammock. They tend to bunch and gap which might cause problems for the SS. I think the SS uses open cell foam that has been molded specifically for this use (it is not flat). You should contact hennessey find out what he recommends one of the advantages of going with small companies is the owners answer the phone :D.

The other thought is to just buy 1 or 2 replacement pads from HH and stack em up. IIRC R-values of foam are somewhat additive, so if you add 1 you will double the insulation, 2 triple etc. 30 bucks a pop tho so I would talk to HH first!

NOBO 2007 April 1st (With a HH hyperlite & JRB Nest)

--cargo

[rpettit]

You can't use a ccf pad between the SS and the hammock. It will just push the SS away from the hammock. I believe the HH website will provide you with the appropriate information about recommended additional insulation.

[Kerosene]

A typical closed-cell pad isn't wide enough to provide any wrap-around insulation, so unless you lie flat on your back and don't move while you sleep, you will develop cold spots where your knees or butt compress against the side of the hammock.

[BirchBark]

I think I might be onto something here.

In this setup, my mummy bag will do triple duty as an underquilt, overquilt and stand-alone sleeping bag. By sewing eyelets on the bag and attaching them by shock cord to corresponding eyelets sewn onto the edge of the HH SuperShelter undercover, the bag should be held snug up against the bottom of the hammock, like so:

1294

This would allow me to use the mummy bag as (1) an underquilt in cold weather, (2) as an overquilt inside the hammock on warmer days, and (3) as a stand-alone sleeping bag for use in shelters.

Splash-up and wind resistant due to the SuperShelter's undercover, and usable in conjunction with the SS's underpad for added insulation if necessary.

Any thoughts?

[Hana_Hanger]

I did that to one of my cheap older sleeping bags and it worked out fine....but just too heavy to carry. But now that I know it works, I use a quilt this time instead. Make sure you use the shock cord line it is easier and allows for movement.

[BirchBark]

I think the trick will be avoiding condensation.

I was hoping to avoid including a noisy space blanket in the setup, as some have suggested they prevent moisture build-up in the insulation layer when placed between the hammock and the underpad/underquilt.

[Hana_Hanger]

oh I forgot if you attach the loops carefully you can still use your bag with no problems and the zipper will still work :)

[Hana_Hanger]

condensation? well I have never experience any in my HH but I usually have lots of wind and have only had it down to 35 - 38 degrees.
Also I never tighten the underquilt or my homemade weather shield up so tight as not to allow air movement.

[hammock engineer]

It's worth a try. You will probibly get some condensation on the underquilt next to the pad that way. Try the underquilt outside of the pad. This way the pad will not compress the loft of the sleeping bag.

Do a search over on hammock forums. There is someone over there that talked about using an underquilt with a SS. I can't remember who, but I think I remember it working out for them.

[BirchBark]

It's worth a try. You will probibly get some condensation on the underquilt next to the pad that way. Try the underquilt outside of the pad. This way the pad will not compress the loft of the sleeping bag.


Ok, before I do any more sewing it is important for me to understand where and why the condensation will develop. Gotta start thinking of any possible alterations or adjustments I might need to make in order to prevent it.

Again, just to clarify, the layers from top to bottom in my plan are:

1. hammock
2. open cell foam underpad that came with the HH SuperShelter
3. cannibalized sleeping bag/underquilt
4. nylon undercover that came with the HH SuperShelter

How does condensation factor in to J.R.B.'s & K.A.Q.'s underquilts? Is it the lack of non-breathable material (i.e., the HHSS undercover) that makes them insulate without wetness? There has to be a way...

[Hangman]

I have a ss and a nest. the weather has finally gotton cold enough here to do more testing. i will be at the pa.ruck this coming weekend. The 10 day forcast is saying 15 degrees for next fri. at pine grove furnace state park. i will post the details when i return, i did post some earlier results either on this site or over at the hammock formums. i don't use an over cover. just my 20 degree bag as a top quilt in hammock.

[Hangman]

Ok, before I do any more sewing it is important for me to understand where and why the condensation will develop. Gotta start thinking of any possible alterations or adjustments I might need to make in order to prevent it.

Again, just to clarify, the layers from top to bottom in my plan are:

1. hammock
2. open cell foam underpad that came with the HH SuperShelter
3. cannibalized sleeping bag/underquilt
4. nylon undercover that came with the HH SuperShelter

How does condensation factor in to J.R.B.'s & K.A.Q.'s underquilts? Is it the lack of non-breathable material (i.e., the HHSS undercover) that makes them insulate without wetness? There has to be a way...
Put nest or other quilt set up under the ss under cover so it goes hammock,ssfoam pad ,ss under cover, than the under quilt last. takes a little time to get in just push all to side sit in lay back and most times it goes back in place if not you can work it back with a little finese through the sides grabbing hammock fabrice and all to kind of work it back. 30 seconds tops. hope that all made sence

[hammock engineer]

Hangman, I knew it was someone.

In terms of condensation, your body looses mosture on all sides. That is why you usually sweat on top a ccp. The ccp does not breath and your mosture builds up. Your bag/underquilt breaths. I have never had any condensation problems on mine. I guess in theory the SS pad would stop all of the air movement and hence all the mosture build up would be on it.

As Hangman said I would put the underquilt on last. If anything else having it anywhere else could compress it and cause you to loose loft.

In the end though, I guess there is only one way to find out.

[rpettit]

As I previously stated, I use the HHSS. I do not use the pad that came with the system because it is to thin and narrow. I found that it was not an effective insulator for these reasons. Maybe I sleep colder than other folk's. The question I have is if you are using a sleeping bag as an underquilt why add the HHSS underpad? I have never experienced any condensation using the undercover.

[BillyBob58]

Birchbark,
If you haven't already, you might want to read my reports and experience with the super shelter. Right now I'm kind of completely torn between sticking with the super shelter and switching to the Speer/Peapod, which seems like a really unattractive option. But as I have kept on experimenting, I have gained more respect for the super shelter. It still really seems to me like it wouldn't work very well at all. But actually, it turns out to work a lot better than I ever thought it would. Especially considering 15 ounces, for which you not only get the extra insulation, but theoretically at least a significant improvement in wind resistance and water resistance.
Anyway, in my experience so far, I am good to go in the super shelter, along with adequate top layer/sleeping bag, to 38°. The only problem with that was that after four hours, the backs of my calves felt a little cold. By adding the recommended space blanket, I can go down into the high 20s, although I still feel just slightly cool at the back of my calves. By adding 4 ounces worth of Garlington insulator underneath the problem area, at 26° no problems whatsoever top or bottom.

You started out asking about, if I remember correctly, simply hanging a pad into the the undercover. This was the first thing I thought to try on my Wind River trip. It did not work at all. There is a great deal of potential for adding bottom installation in Hennessey's undercover. The only problem is that if you stick anything in there that has any weight to it, like a thick fleece jacket or self inflating foam pads, it tends to pull the undercover down away from the hammock, and unless you are very careful about the arrangement, you end up with a big air gap between the jacket or the pad and the hammock, not doing much good at all. I believe Hennessy actually states on his site that you can't use a pad in the undercover. However, the Garlington insulator, it seems to me, has tremendous potential to be used with the super shelter. A trash bag with a space blanket in it is going to be very light compared to its thickness and the area covered. My experience was that it did not cause the undercover to pull away from the hammock at all. It just fit nice and snug up against the hammock bottom. So for about 4 ounces, I got about an extra three or 4 inches of relatively dead air underneath my legs and feet. There's no reason why I couldn't do the same thing and have another one under my upper body. But this year has been very disappointing as far as providing enough nights with temperatures that can really test this.

But to approach from a different and simpler angle, I have been extremely pleased with the Speer SPE. If I put this with nothing more than a 14 oz. RidgeRest in the HHSS, it's obvious to me that I have greatly extended the range of the HHSS. Now since I am already good for at least the low 30s and maybe the high 20s, I can't help but wonder what this will take me to? It doesn't cost much, it only weighs 4 ounces itself (the SPE), it stays put nicely in the hammock, and you can add as many or as few pads as you like, as thin or as thick as you are willing to carry. This is a particularly attractive option if you feel like you need to carry some sort of pad anyway in case you have to go to ground or use a shelter. And in my experience so far, I don't see that it decreases comfort very much. Certainly not as much as being cold! And not anywhere near as much as using those pads on the ground. And it takes care of the narrow pad problem also. I think this is a really great little product, which greatly simplifies staying warm, in any hammock, super shelter or otherwise.
There's a lot of ways to skin this (staying warm) cat! But I have to admit I'm a good bit more impressed with the HHSS then I was to start with. I'm still not sure how this, light, thin and super compressible OCF pad contributes as much warmth as it obviously does, especially when used with a two ounce space blanket added. At only 15 ounces, ( or a couple oz. more with the torso/kidney pad) it gives me an extra 30 or 40° of comfort and theoretically at least some extra wind and water protection. Now that's just me. I was known as a very warm sleeper in my earlier days, although I think I might have lost a lot of that ability to stay warm at age 58. And I also use the extra torso and kidney pads. I think they make significant difference. But on the other hand, there is at least one review at BGT where the person has not been able to be comfortable below 50°. Though with the addition of a CCF pad, they were okay at 27°. ( http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Shelters/Hammocks/Hennessy%20Super%20Shelter/Jamie%20DeBenedetto/Long%20Term%20Report/ )

Good Luck!
Bill

[frequency]

.... By adding the recommended space blanket, I can go down into the high 20s, although I still feel just slightly cool at the back of my calves. By adding 4 ounces worth of Garlington insulator underneath the problem area, at 26° no problems whatsoever top or bottom... However, the Garlington insulator, it seems to me, has tremendous potential to be used with the super shelter. A trash bag with a space blanket in it is going to be very light compared...

BB58 - was thinking of trying to make the equivalent of an HHSS but substitute reflectix for the OCFP - do you think this would work? How much R value does the HHSS plus space blanket provide? Are you using a pad inside the ham? What is a Garlington insulator?

[BillyBob58]

BB58 - was thinking of trying to make the equivalent of an HHSS but substitute reflectix for the OCFP - do you think this would work? How much R value does the HHSS plus space blanket provide? Are you using a pad inside the ham? What is a Garlington insulator?

Darn good question, Frequency! I have no experience with the reflectix, sorry! I have no idea what the R value of the HHSS OCF pad plus space blanket, but I wish I did. I suspect even Tom Hennessy doesn't know! But it is 5/8" thick OCF. Is that equivalent to 5/8" closed cell foam as long as you don't compress it? I don't know. But the thermarest ridgerest is 5/8" and has an r-value of 2.6.

Interestingly, at the Speer website, under the heading "some observed temperature ratings with the Speer SPE", http://www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm shows a ccf pad of 5/8" thickness with an r-value of 2.6 as good to 37*. My personal results ( some others don't do as well) with the HHSS including space blanket indicate comfort to at least the mid 30's, maybe a little lower. So then, can we then presume the HHSS/SB has an r-value of slightly better than 2.6? I don't know.

Re: "What is a Garlington Insulator?", it consists of a home made outer shell sort of like the undercover= overcover of the HHSS, plus insulation consisting of a sealed trashbag with some trapped air and newspaper or a spaceblanket inside. Check out:
http://www.hammockcamping.com/Garlington%20Insulator/GIversion2.htm

It seems to me that this insulation might make a good companion to the HHSS, as it gets you several inches of at least somewhat dead air for relatively very light weight. Since the weight is so light and spread out over a good amount of area, it doesn't cause the HHSS undercover to sag very much away from the hammock bottom. I suspect this may be a good combo. I hope to test further during some forecast temps in the teens in a few days. But if the addition of the Gar.Insu. doesn't do the job, I am fairly confident the addition to the HHSS of the SPE with Ridge-rest CCF pad will get the job done, with or without the GI. I will report the results if it actually gets that cold! :cool:
Bill

[BillyBob58]

Frequency asked:
Are you using a pad inside the ham?

Sorry, I forgot to answer that. Any official testing I have reported on is just the full HHSS including additional kidney/torso OCF hennessy pads, with the SpaceB and/or the Garlington Insulator trashbag beneath my lower legs only, but WITHOUT any additional CCF pad so far. But I have added the SPE/CCF pad(thermarest Ridgerest) in the hammock for unofficial testing, and all I can say is that it seems to add a LARGE amount of additional bottom insulation. I'm thinking 20 or 30 additional degrees on top of what the HHSS already provides. :banana
Bill