Windshirt + Synth or Shell + Down? [Archive]

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Complicated

01-21-2007, 23:06

bigcranky

01-22-2007, 08:16

Comp,

I've used my OR Seattle Sombrero as my only rain gear, along with an ultralight windshirt, but that was in June, not April. It worked pretty well, actually, but I'm not sure I'd want to try it in colder weather.

You could add a lightweight poncho to that setup for heavier rains. My Golite poncho/tarp is much more protective and dry than I expected, with plenty of coverage and ventilation. Again, the Sombrero will be a good addition to this setup.

maxNcathy

01-22-2007, 09:07

The rain can be very cold as i found out with a wind jacket that was not waterproof. I will never hike with it again as I got way tooo cold and it was on April 19th near Damascus, Va.
Think of a diver. His skin is wet but warm enough because the waterproof suit limits the addition of extra cold water.
So go with a waterPROOF shell to limit the moisture on the skin to perspiration which is warm and of limited supply.
Can you test your gear in cold rains to see what you find out?

Sandalwood

rafe

01-22-2007, 09:21

I have yet to find a truly rainproof outfit, especially in cold rain. If it's got enough water resistance to keep rain out, it has enough to keep perspiration in. Brand-new Goretex works... for about a month. The Seattle Sombrero is worth its weight in gold, though. It keeps the worst of the weather out of my face, except maybe in high wind.

TurkeyBacon

01-22-2007, 10:45

I can come up with a few points leaning towards rain gear (or a ramble...)
There is a big difference between getting wet and getting soaked. In a heavy rain storm you are bound to get wet regardless of your rain gear (waterpoof/brethable or otherwise) but not very likely to get soaked.
There is also a difference between getting wet/moist with persperation vs getting wet with rain. Persperation will be a warm moisture, while rain will be a cold moisture.
Of cource the biggest danger of getting wet is hypothermia so the summer is when most people will forego rain gear, because it actually feels good to get wet. However the other danger is going crazy. Cold and wet can make you go crazy faster.
Finally, in the cold, your body heat will keep you warm when you hike. When you reach camp, its good to have something dry or mostly dry since you will be producing less body heat. So having a damp layer of insulation under your rain gear seems to be better than a wet layer of insulation under your wind jacket.
OR I could be completely wrong...
TB

highway

01-22-2007, 11:08

Hi all-
I am planning a NOBO starting around April 1, and I'm debating outerwear options. I wear a light weight poly shirt, and a wide-brimmed gore-tex hat (OR Seattle sombrero).

Here's the crazy part: I'm considering not wearing a hard shell, just my 3 oz. wind shirt. The more I read/watch the more it seems inevitable I'm going to get wet, and a wind shirt can "discourage" water and stop wind for a lot less weight if true waterproofing is an exercise in futility long term.

I am thinking of pairing the wind shirt with a montbell thermawrap jacket as my only other form of insulation with my wicking baselayer. I'll need the synthetic insulation for this set up. (12 oz. for the windshirt and jacket.)

Option B would be a standard precip jacket or similar with a western mountaineering flight vest and a 100 weight pullover fleece. Super comfortable and warm if I can keep dry... (24 oz)

Opinions? I haven't seen any good threads on people going without a hard shell, so apologies if this is heavily trodden territory.

-Comp

Few folks take this approach, opting to play it safe and take the slightly breathable (Gor Tex, Et Al) but water PROOF shell over whatever under layers they feel comfortable with. But what you ask is possible-to an extent.

One can adjust ones temp with just a few very light layers that wick towards exiting ultimately through a highly breathable and water RESISTANT soft shell. In fact, moving all day one can stay dry in long term drizzles, having one's body heat force out the penetrating rain faster than it enters. But once it 'wets out' as in a heavier rain then some covering is needed, because your body heat may not be able to catch up.

Here, a poncho works well with the long open areas under the arm for venting and the cape for keeping rain off. The Marmot pre cip works-so long as the long underarm vents stay open for venting. You should also have shorts on instead of pants, which cant be vented well and keep in far to much core body heat, making you succumb to the primary complaint most have of hiking in the rain-getting wet and staying wet, but its from your own perspiration ..Once you master the technique you can hike all day in rainy weather and stay mostly dry-a little damp inside, as you are forcing your body heat out but it is not being trapped inside enough to wet you on the inside..

The 3 oz wind shirt you mention may work as an outer but not last under the harsh treatment you are going to give it. The Montbell clothing I hope is like the Dri clime windshirt in that it has very thin wicking fleece on the inside and a water resistant outer and is wind proof. If so you can wear it for a long time till it wets out because the water that enters is forced out by your body heat faster than it accumulates inside. Once it wets out, though you must stop the incoming rain with something and you don't need heavy Gore type products to effect this that rely on breathable "through the membrane" because this asset almost completely disappears after just a few wearings, then you must be able to vent your heat through it's openings.

The layers you choose all have to be thin, very thin, like wicking t shirts, your thin poly shirt you mentioned and some wicking windshirt. I even add a wicking tank under my t shirt. so, those layers from skin out: thin tank, thin t, thin nylon shirt, thin wind/fleece shirt. And thats it, plus an outer rain stopper (poncho or precip, poncho mostly, precip if its going to be very cold-but not winter, 4th season; this is three season use) You do not have to bulk up like the Michelin man to stay warm, because, with those thin layers you provide yourself the advantage of some very cheap insulation-the dead air space between those layers. When you build up more heat that you can have exit through your clothing, begin to peel off the layers. Done correctly, and carefully, you can stay reasonably dry while those around you become soaking wet, under the very same conditions. And you want be hampered by carrying so much clothing weight, either. This is an example of less being better-and safer-because wetter leads to hypothermia

You proposed a very good question. But it will open up the flood gates from the naysayers so be prepared and with an open mind. There are threads already on this forum that gave sources to explain the concept in broader detail. With good choices one can stay warm and mostly dry while hiking in the rain-even when it rains day after day.

Johnny Swank

01-22-2007, 11:18

I think you need either a poncho or some other hardshell jacket for the time you'll be leaving. The softshell concept works for awhile, but is dependent on your body to create heat to work effectively. Hiking in 35 degree weather during a thunderstorm in your proposed setup isn't going to cut it once everything gets soaked. Throw a poncho over everything and you should be OK as long as you have a dry set of thermals to change into once you get into camp.

Don't take the weather down south lightly. It is damn cold and wet in those upper elevations of Georgia, NC, and Tennessee. I'd also carry your cold weather gear till you get past Mt. Rogers if I were you.

rswanson

01-22-2007, 11:21

I think April is still going to be too early to risk going without a waterproof jacket. Hiking without one means that you need to be sure you can get completely soaked (which will happen with just a windshirt) and not get hypothermic, especially if you're carrying only a down vest for insulation. You won't be able to wear that vest until you get out of the rain. If it rains for several days in a row, you may have to stay put.

I'd carry at least a poncho. My choice is Dropstoppers. The jacket weighs under 7 ounces and is just about as breathable as rain gear gets.

mountain squid

01-22-2007, 12:34

Just A Thought...

In April '04, I started off with a poncho on the 20th. While going over Roan it was raining. I remember I kept tripping over the poncho. I had seen several others on the trail using umbrellas. So I started thinking about switching to one. After discussing with the other umbrella users I decided to look for one in Damascus. Couldn't find the Go-Lite that everyone else was using. I did find a lighter MontBell umbrella though. I purchased the umbrella along with a lightweight wind shirt and sent the poncho home.

https://www2.montbell.com/america/asp/products/Spg_shosai.asp?cat=1605&hinban=2328311

Now, contrary to popular belief, I am able to continue walking with my poles. I rig the umbrella to my shoulder strap and then it rests on my head. Sometimes it is difficult to go underneath a blow-down, but it is manageable. In the Whites, however, it was just too windy to use (no trees to block the wind). I did survive with just my wind shirt and fleece jacket, though. Next time I will probably try something else in the Whites.

One thing you'll notice as you continue North, is that when it does rain, many people will not stop to put on their rain gear. They just get wet. Not so with an umbrella. You should be able to pop open the umbrella without removing your pack in a matter of seconds...

Again, this is Just A Thought...March/April with an umbrella, I don't know...In '04, the weather wasn't too bad in Apr, an umbrella would have been fine...

Just A Thought...

See you on the trail,
mt squid

PJ 2005

01-22-2007, 13:03

another factor is in-camp warmth... there were times in June that I was cold, and was glad that I kept my fleece-precip-wool hat combo.

at least take a big trash bag.

hopefulhiker

01-22-2007, 15:47

I saved a down sweater for in camp wear only.. used a marmot driclime with patagonia silk liner shirt and a FrogTogg shell