View Full Version : Going without a sleeping bag
farmermv
01-28-2007, 10:14
Hi, newbie here. Wondering why I can't use a down coat and pants instead of a sleeping bag? Any thoughts?
Perhaps, if it's hot enough.
Perhaps not, if it's cold enough
Mine is my last layer of defense
Lone Wolf
01-28-2007, 10:21
Hi, newbie here. Wondering why I can't use a down coat and pants instead of a sleeping bag? Any thoughts?
sure. but why?
saimyoji
01-28-2007, 10:25
Hi, newbie here. Wondering why I can't use a down coat and pants instead of a sleeping bag? Any thoughts?
I think when you do the math, the weight savings favors a sleeping bag. You won't hike in your down clothing, you'll be too warm, could damage your expensive gear. The only time you'll need that kind of warmth is in camp, and then the coverage a sleeping bag provides is lighter than all the fabric/insulation used to make a down coat and pants.
There was a recent thread here where a hard core winter hiker talked about only needing a 45* bag, even when temps were below 0* because he'd utilize all his other layers when sleeping. Wish I could recall where that thread was....
Fannypack
01-28-2007, 10:45
There was a recent thread here where a hard core winter hiker talked about only needing a 45* bag, even when temps were below 0* because he'd utilize all his other layers when sleeping. Wish I could recall where that thread was....
wouldn't that mean that all your layers would be wet from sweating while sleeping? what "layers" would u wear the next day during this winter hike?
It would seem that this person w/o a sleeping would be hoping/praying for warm weather the next day.
It seems like this would be a dangerous path to take, i.e., wearing all layers nite after nite, day after day.
You hard-core, seriously cold weather winter hikers are delusional-
Unless you do it in Florida:D
If you are really set on going without a sleeping bag I would recommend sleeping during the day and hiking through the night. I've heard of people doing this during the summer, when they can get away with using a ultralight bivy as their only sleeping gear, but that sounds a little dangerous in winter conditions.
Adam
Because in a bag your fat ass and radiant beer gut will help keep your ankles and fingers warm?
FanaticFringer
01-28-2007, 11:40
www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Products%20List_files/No%20Snivelling%20Quilt.htm
4eyedbuzzard
01-28-2007, 12:31
Hi, newbie here. Wondering why I can't use a down coat and pants instead of a sleeping bag? Any thoughts?
Consider the mitten/glove analogy. Your fingers stay much warmer in the mitten that covers all the fingers collectively. The insulation is used more efficiently and the collective warmth is retained better. Add to this the metabolic slowdown during sleep(your body core temperature drops by as much as 2 degrees average). A down coat, pants, booties, etc would weigh more than a sleeping bag to provide the same degree of warmth, and would be too warm to be of use during warmer day temps with the exertion of hiking.
Fiddleback
01-28-2007, 12:40
I believe you must be very, very careful if you plan to leave your sleeping bag at home. I am and I do.
My motivation was weight savings and in my situation and area of camping I do get a weight savings. YMMV. I anticipate freezing temps anytime I step on the trail. If it doesn't get close to freezing any particular night it's usually because I'm at lower elevations. In any case, the warmest low I've experienced around my home range is in the high-40s (late July, Belly River, Glacier NP). That's why I always carry cold weather clothing. Since that weight it already in my pack it makes sense to me to incorporate it into my sleep system. Both my hooded jacket and pants are synthetic insulation, not down, and weigh a total of 35oz.
I also carry a base layer, balaclava, fleece gloves, fresh wool socks for sleeping and down booties although pieces of that collection may drop out depending on the season. Incorporating all of this and in a hammock I've been comfortable to the mid-20s without any kind of cover. I have a quilt which I have yet to use in cool weather which I think will allow me to get into the teens but I'll also need an upgraded pad for those temps. The quilt weighs 18oz and may allow me to drop out some of the above during the summer (e.g., the insulated pants) while giving me the psychological comfort of snuggling up with a 'blanket'.:)
Another benefit of 'sleeping in clothes' is the ease and comfort of getting up for Nature calls and in the early morning cold. I'm already dressed...there are no shivering trips in the dark, there's no sleeping bag to warm up again, and in the morning I can take my time to change, pack up, have breakfast, etc.
This all works well for me for a shortened three-season system (May-Oct).
Since I returned to backpacking a couple years ago about half of my trips have been solo. Consequently, I plan the routes with an eye to an easy bail-out in case I find myself alone and in trouble. I recommend the same kind of caution when venturing out without a bag. But it can be done easily and comfortably and, in situations like mine, can lead to significant weight savings.
FB
gsingjane
01-28-2007, 13:04
Wasn't there some kind of sleeping bag/jacket system a few years back, where you zipped the top of the bag onto the bottom of the jacket? I don't think they sell those anymore and I have a feeling there may be a good reason why not?
Jane in CT
FanaticFringer
01-28-2007, 13:12
www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm
hammock engineer
01-28-2007, 13:29
Wasn't there some kind of sleeping bag/jacket system a few years back, where you zipped the top of the bag onto the bottom of the jacket? I don't think they sell those anymore and I have a feeling there may be a good reason why not?
Jane in CT
I have been toying around with the idea of making one of these for my summer setup. I think it could work and take some weight out of my pack. At least I think it is worth a try. After my hike I think I can mod my MEC northern lite jacket to do this. I think it is at least worth a try.
www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm (http://www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm)
This thing is Da Bomb for cold weather. I used it from November through January and was warm at zero. (I'm a cold sleeper.) Because I carried it, I did not carry other camp clothes, like a down jacket. It is fantastic to be able to cook, read, and walk around camp without freezing.
Beware, though, that you will swelter if the nighttime temps are 50 and above...
rswanson
01-29-2007, 12:53
wouldn't that mean that all your layers would be wet from sweating while sleeping? what "layers" would u wear the next day during this winter hike?
It would seem that this person w/o a sleeping would be hoping/praying for warm weather the next day.
It seems like this would be a dangerous path to take, i.e., wearing all layers nite after nite, day after day.
Actually, if you do this right, you're always hoping for cold temperatures. Using a vapor barrier liner, or vapor barrier clothing, next to your skin keeps insensate moisture from passing into your insulating layers, where it can freeze and eventually lose loft. This is an old trick but has its limits. It works best in lower temps where you aren't perspiring all that much. When it gets warm, perspiration becomes too much to manage. VBL's and VB clothing are a great way to extend the range of your sleep and clothing systems, but they take knowledge and some practice to use effectively.
Hi, newbie here. Wondering why I can't use a down coat and pants instead of a sleeping bag? Any thoughts?Try it and see. That's the only way to find out. Wait for a 20-25* night, drive up to Unicoi, walk up to the Blue Mtn shelter (only two miles) and spend the night without a bag. Or drive up FS 42 and walk up to Springer. Both these places you can bail out to your car if you get cold so there is no danger.
If you do this, let us know how you made out.
OTOH, there are people who hike without tents and without stoves and without water purifiers and without raingear and without pads and without a lot of stuff, but I have never heard of anyone doing it without a sleeping bag of some sort, even if only a sheet-type sleep-sack during the hot months.
There may be a reason why everyone carries a bag. Or maybe not. Let us know.
TurkeyBacon
01-29-2007, 15:21
"let us know how you made out."
That would keep you warm but you might have a hard time convincing the other people in the shelter to aggree with it.
TB
soulrebel
01-29-2007, 16:11
You must like spooning, which can and will occur if it gets cold enough.
Fiddleback
01-29-2007, 18:14
Try it and see. That's the only way to find out. Wait for a 20-25* night, drive up to Unicoi, walk up to the Blue Mtn shelter (only two miles) and spend the night without a bag. Or drive up FS 42 and walk up to Springer. Both these places you can bail out to your car if you get cold so there is no danger.
If you do this, let us know how you made out.
OTOH, there are people who hike without tents and without stoves and without water purifiers and without raingear and without pads and without a lot of stuff, but I have never heard of anyone doing it without a sleeping bag of some sort, even if only a sheet-type sleep-sack during the hot months.
There may be a reason why everyone carries a bag. Or maybe not. Let us know.
Frosty --
See my post above, #11 in this thread.
I wouldn't say a lot of people sleep without a bag or quilt. On the other hand, it wasn't an original idea I had and there are surely others that do it. My inspiration came from reading these and other forums, Yahoo Groups, and Ryan Jordan's writings for BackPackingLight.
To be comfortable in cool temps without a bag or quilt is easier than you think...it just may not be worthwhile. My motivation was to save weight (and to avoid the perceived hassle of a bag in a hammock)...if I had to add the cold weather clothing in place of the sleeping bag it wouldn't have paid off. But, I carry the clothes (or most of them) all the time so I wasn't adding anything. Instead, I'm getting dual use from what I carry.
On the trail I've done 26° comfortably in a hammock this way. In the backyard and again in a hammock I did a few hours at 22° but then I felt cold coming through the pad. But it was a 7oz, ¼" Oware pad -- if I upgrade the pad I'll be good for the colder temps of winter. Of course, had I been on the ground instead of in the hammock my low-temp range would be significantly greater. But who wants to do that?;)
As I posted above, the advantages of not using a sleeping bag are dependent upon the climate of the area you're camping in. It may or may not pay to leave the sleeping bag at home. But here in the Northern Rockies it works for me, May thru October; a season that can have hard freezes (and snow) on any night. Of course, at the high elevations it can really get nippy during those months:D .
Everyone backpacks in their own way, e.g., when I was doing trips on the AT I never used the shelters. But your suggestion of trying things out with an easy bail-out available is spot on. Just like equipment, one should test methods and techniques before hitting the trail. Backyard experiments are key to staying warm on the trail, IMO. Especially so for hammock hangers.
FB
Jester2000
01-29-2007, 18:53
OTOH, there are people who hike without tents and without stoves and without water purifiers and without raingear and without pads and without a lot of stuff. . .
. . .and those are the people who eventually annoy the living crap out of everyone around them by asking to borrow a stove or a water purifier or duct tape or a Leatherman or any number of things they decide they don't need to carry. Particularly annoying (while simultaneously riotously funny) was the guy who would arrive at a shelter on a rainy day and announce that because he did not carry a tent that someone in the shelter who had a tent had to leave.
Somehow it feels to me that if you're in a hammock, not having a sleeping bag might work. Why is that? Is it because it's enclosed somewhat, like a bivy? On the other hand, some nights you might not want to be in the hammock, and then it seems like you'd want a bag. I guess it's just that I rarely sleep anywhere without something covering me, even in my house.
It's possible. Last march myself and friend were staying at the Peter's Mt. shelter. There was a guy there named "Tom from Wyoming amongst other places". He was more of a transient than a hiker but he was on the move, he just didn't have the proper gear. It was 25 degrees and windy that night and he had no bag. What did he do? He took half the rocks from the fire pit and made a wall against the wind. He then slept by the fire(like 6 inches away, literally) and woke up, I'm guessing a lot, and fed the fire then went back to sleep. He kept it up all night. It was one of the more hardcore things I've seen on the trail.
I won't go hiking (even day hiking in the mountains) in the winter without a sleeping bag (lightest one I have, just for survival) - and an ultralight bivy.
If you want to try the "half bag" or "elephant's foot" approach, Feathered Friends makes the Vireo specifically for use with a down jacket. The bag can be ordered in different lengths, shell fabrics, etc. and is probably cheaper than the Nunatak versions.
It's designed with less filling in the upper part of the bag, supplementing the loft of your parka or jacket, adding as little extra weight as possible. It has no zipper- to save weight.
No, I don't have one, but I bought two of their bags in the 1990s (a Great Auk and a Rock Wren) - both very well made with the best materials available at that time.
I very often go "bagless" in the summer at lower elevations.
If you really want to go without a bag and sleep in a down jacket.. I'd at least consider a half-bag. This concept is used quite a bit by winter mountainering folk.
stranger
01-14-2008, 20:44
Go hiking in 10 below zero wearing gloves, then switch to mittens, the answer gets pretty clear.
It's possible. Last march myself and friend were staying at the Peter's Mt. shelter. There was a guy there named "Tom from Wyoming amongst other places". He was more of a transient than a hiker but he was on the move, he just didn't have the proper gear. It was 25 degrees and windy that night and he had no bag. What did he do? He took half the rocks from the fire pit and made a wall against the wind. He then slept by the fire(like 6 inches away, literally) and woke up, I'm guessing a lot, and fed the fire then went back to sleep. He kept it up all night. It was one of the more hardcore things I've seen on the trail.
was his name LES OR BEAR:D