Smallest volume backpack used for a thru?

[tmnobo07]

I'm begining my thru attemp in April. I'm undecided as to what backpack I'm going to take. My old Mountainsmith Phantom is about 3100cu and my ULA Relay is 2100cu. The Mountainsmith is simply too much pack for my gear. On the other hand, I'd really be pushing the limits of my ULA. I'll do some repacking and see what I come up with.

But anyway, what I've noticed is that both of my packs seem to be much smaller than what other people have used for thruhikes. Just curious, what are some of the smaller pack sizes you've used, or seen used, for a thruhike?

[ScottP]

smallest I've seen is a bit under 1000. smallest i've used is a bit over 1000.

[TN_Hiker]

a 1000???? Dang gum my laptop case is bigger than that. I wouldn't worry about what other folks are carrying. The question you need to ask is will all my gear & food fit in my backpack? If it fits in your ULA Relay than go with it otherwise your Mountainsmith. It that is still too small you might want to look at your gear before buying a new pack. In the end....HYOH.

[stuco]

Why not find something in the middle of these two pack sizes?

[rswanson]

Why not find something in the middle of these two pack sizes?
Yup, I guess you'll just have to buy a ULA Conduit. I know at least one guy did a thruhike with that pack last year.

[Wolf - 23000]

a 1000???? Dang gum my laptop case is bigger than that. I wouldn't worry about what other folks are carrying. The question you need to ask is will all my gear & food fit in my backpack? If it fits in your ULA Relay than go with it otherwise your Mountainsmith. It that is still too small you might want to look at your gear before buying a new pack. In the end....HYOH.

TN Hiker,

1000 cu/in is all I used hiking from Tenn-Georgia in Mid-March. You don't need anything bigger but you are right, hikers should worry about what they are carrying rather than what everyone else is doing. It make traveling a lot easier.

Wolf

[tmnobo07]

No no...I'm not concerned with what everyone else is doing. I was just curious how small people have gone. I'm hiking my hike and I'll make the gear I have work for me. Choosing your personal set up is part of the fun of backpacking.

As far as buying a pack in between sizes, I'd rather not spend the money. Especially on something I don't really need. I can make both of the packs work for me. It's just a personal choice: Do I want extra carrying capacity or do I want a perfectly sized pack with little, if any, extra space?

1000cu?!!?

[Kerosene]

I'd lean towards a little extra space, as long as the pack still sits right on your shoulders. There are some spots where you might want the flexibility to carry a little more food or weather where you might want some extra clothes.

[stuco]

There are a couple packs that will work for you for sale in the buy/sell section:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21347

[rswanson]

TN Hiker,

1000 cu/in is all I used hiking from Tenn-Georgia in Mid-March. You don't need anything bigger but you are right, hikers should worry about what they are carrying rather than what everyone else is doing. It make traveling a lot easier.

Wolf
Ok, I'll bite. What were you carrying that you could get by with a 1000 c.i. pack and how long were your hikes?

[OntheRoad]

Man, don't buy a whole new pack you have 2 already. Just make one of those work. Stuff in all of your gear and see if you would still have room for a few days of food.

[mweinstone]

the wolf 23000 uber light is the smallest object visable to the naked eye. it has done 54 thru hikes and no one knows its secrets. its sole designer and user, one mister j edgar wolf 23000 resides here on whiteblaze. albeiet he was banashed to the attic years ago for not letting us see where his gear fits. one legond has it that the pack was under tremendus pressure and that when deployed at camptime, turned into a five star hotel with servants ans vehicals and full mini bar.the closest i ever got to it, it looked like a resque bouy a lifegaurd has.wolf23000 has yor answers.

[SalParadise]

Ok, I'll bite. What were you carrying that you could get by with a 1000 c.i. pack and how long were your hikes?


yeah, I'd actually be real interested in your gear list that you could fit that small. you must be hiking pretty light. i'm very impressed you could compact everything down that small.

[SalParadise]

heck, that small amount of space you could almost hike with two big fanny packs and not have to use a backpack at all. maybe one in front and one in back, that would feel great to do something like that.

[dloome]

The time of year you thru hike will be a large influence. I started in early March and my pack was about 2,000 cubes. Pushing it volume-wise at the start with cold weather gear. Around 3,000 cubes/ 50 liters should be perfectly adequate even for an early start and won't be excessive later in the season.

I agree with OnTheRoad, you've got two packs already, either of which could work if you wanted to. Maybe start with the bigger one and swap it out when you lose gear up the trail.

[Sly]

My food bag alone is usually over 1000 CI! :eek:

[SalParadise]

Man, don't buy a whole new pack you have 2 already. Just make one of those work. Stuff in all of your gear and see if you would still have room for a few days of food.


not related to the thread, but OnTheRoad, you've got an awesome nickname.
--Sal Paradise

[hammock engineer]

It might be a little to late to order, but I have a gearskin pack from moonbow coming that can adjust to almost any size. All for about 20 oz. Plus a couple after I add some hip and side pockets.

[Mags]

Easy!

Water, snacks, a jacket...and a Visa Card for when you get to road crossings and hitch into town every night. :p

[SalParadise]

yeah, if only you could hike that light and not be forced to do 35 miles a day....

[Whistler]

I agree on 1000ci of food! I think you could do it with the Relay. I couldn't... yet. I use a 2700ci GoLite Jam for my longer hikes, and I might downsize a couple hundred ci this year, but I'm not sure.
-Mark

[Mags]

yeah, if only you could hike that light and not be forced to do 35 miles a day....

How many places are that far from a road on the AT?

I can think of a stretch in the Smokies, and maybe the 100 mile "Wilderness" in Maine (if you don't count the busy logging roads).

Though I was being faceitious, I bet a person who did not care about their finances, was in good shape and pushed the evelope of safety, could conceivably do a "Credit Card Hike".

The supported "runs" on the AT aren't too far off to be honest.

Hmm...maybe Visa/MC/Amex/Discover may be willing to sponsor this project? :)

[Marta]

Though I was being faceitious, I bet a person who did not care about their finances, was in good shape and pushed the evelope of safety, could conceivably do a "Credit Card Hike".



Yep, it can be done. I came fairly close in NY, NJ, and northern PA--before I came to my senses and realized what a pain it is to be making all those arrangements all the time, not to mention having to hike to a schedule.

It is kind of pleasant to be clean every night, and always wearing clean clothes. Then there's the plentiful town food and drink...

I ran into a trail maintainer in VA who has been section-hiking with his wife for several years. He said he's going to write a book, "Hiking the AT on $400 a Day."

Marta/Five-Leaf

[highway]

It might be a little to late to order, but I have a gearskin pack from moonbow coming that can adjust to almost any size. All for about 20 oz. Plus a couple after I add some hip and side pockets.
Hip pockets if you want but side pockets? Wait till you get it and you will see that you can immediately stuff literally anything, literally anywhere along the entire periphery of the pack just as it is, while packed. Putting side pockets on it would be ridiculous. But if you want extra pockets, get it with the kangaroo pouch of webbing on the back. Now that is handy for crushable things like bread.

[Wolf - 23000]

Easy!

Water, snacks, a jacket...and a Visa Card for when you get to road crossings and hitch into town every night.

Mags,

You know I travel on a low cost budget. Some hikers maybe able to afford it but I can’t see spending a couple hundred dollars per/week to be staying in a hotel.:D

The pack I use now is the REI Flash UL, trim down 6 oz. Some of the places I’ve been include 280 miles hiking southbound in mid-March; TN – Springer Mt. (yes I got snowed on a couple times), GA, 150 miles in WY. Little 4 days hikes in Maryland winter/summer. It a great pack that I’ve used now for over 500 miles. I like it and for $25, what a deal!

I’ve used others packs normal a no name book bags that cost next to nothing to thru-hike the AT, PCT, LT, COT, etc. They work fine but make sure you reinforce the shoulders straps.

Before this get started into, “Well I use this backpack, sleeping bag … “. If you are happy with it then use it. There are too many want – a – be – lightweight hikers who just come up with some far out stuff that you just have to shake your head. I know Mags is only kidding but some hikers may actually believe him that how you need to travel light weight.

SalParadise comments like you are force to hike 35 miles a day. Give it a rest. You can travel lightweight without hiking 35 miles/day. If you thru-hiked the AT as you are posting, you should have the experience to know that.

We are getting off topic here but bottom line is, each hiker packs up what he or she wants to carry, they make a conscious decision how much they want to carry. If your backpack weight is more than what you want it to be then takes the extras out. Every hiker carries something he or she does not need. If it bothers you, take it out.

Wolf

[rswanson]

Mags,

You know I travel on a low cost budget. Some hikers maybe able to afford it but I can’t see spending a couple hundred dollars per/week to be staying in a hotel.:D

The pack I use now is the REI Flash UL, trim down 6 oz. Some of the places I’ve been include 280 miles hiking southbound in mid-March; TN – Springer Mt. (yes I got snowed on a couple times), GA, 150 miles in WY. Little 4 days hikes in Maryland winter/summer. It a great pack that I’ve used now for over 500 miles. I like it and for $25, what a deal!

I’ve used others packs normal a no name book bags that cost next to nothing to thru-hike the AT, PCT, LT, COT, etc. They work fine but make sure you reinforce the shoulders straps.

Before this get started into, “Well I use this backpack, sleeping bag … “. If you are happy with it then use it. There are too many want – a – be – lightweight hikers who just come up with some far out stuff that you just have to shake your head. I know Mags is only kidding but some hikers may actually believe him that how you need to travel light weight.

SalParadise comments like you are force to hike 35 miles a day. Give it a rest. You can travel lightweight without hiking 35 miles/day. If you thru-hiked the AT as you are posting, you should have the experience to know that.

We are getting off topic here but bottom line is, each hiker packs up what he or she wants to carry, they make a conscious decision how much they want to carry. If your backpack weight is more than what you want it to be then takes the extras out. Every hiker carries something he or she does not need. If it bothers you, take it out.

Wolf

Wolf,

This all sounds good but I'm more interested in what you're carrying. I like a light, low bulk kit myself but I cannot conceive of a full, multi-day hiking rack with food that fits into a 1000 c.i. pack, especially over four days in the winter. Can you post your gear list? Maybe myself and some others here could pick up some tips.

[Mags]

Mags,

I know Mags is only kidding but some hikers may actually believe him that how you need to travel light weight.




Yep, I was indeed only kidding. I *HOPE* most people realize that too.

For three-season backpacking, esp. on the AT, I think most people can comfortably get down to about 15-17 lbs BPW without any real hardship.

Sub 15 lbs (imo) requires more knowledge of your gear, your ability and wilderness awareness.


And, as Wolf pointed out, going light does not mean "big mileage". You do not have to do 35MPD.

For the average person, going light means doing the same mileage with more ease. A side benefit, is that most people can do a 5 MPD more with a lighter load and with the same effort.

Now, to connect all this together, Wolf is one of the most experienced long distance backpackers on the AT and other trails.

Though I am no slouch myself, it took X amount of miles for me to get to sub-10lbs and be comfortable.

If I had Wolf's experience, maybe I would be comfortable with the load.

Just as someone who is looking to go light may not want to copy my gear list verbatim, someone without Wolf's experience may not want to copy HIS list exactly.


Soo...you may be able to pick up some pointers by looking at gear lists. But gear is only part of the equation. You need experience, need to know your comfort level, and be aware of the environment to see what works for you.

[rafe]

Soo...you may be able to pick up some pointers by looking at gear lists. But gear is only part of the equation. You need experience, need to know your comfort level, and be aware of the environment to see what works for you.

Excellent point, Mags. It's why I kinda chuckle at gear lists most of the time. I've got nothing against going "light" or "ultralight" -- I'm trying to get there myself. But gear alone won't get you there. It takes smarts, and that generally comes from experience.

[VictoriaM]

I'll be starting my thru this year with a 2750.

[Sly]

Sub 15 lbs (imo) requires more knowledge of your gear, your ability and wilderness awareness.....

Though I am no slouch myself, it took X amount of miles for me to get to sub-10lbs and be comfortable.



Mags, Looking at one of your docs (http://www.pmags.com/miscwritings/lwbp101.htm) is almost identical to what I started the AT with in '97 and hiked the CDT with in '02. For some reason though, I'm closer to 15 lbs than 11. I guess carrying a camera, guidebooks, maps and booze all adds up.

[Mags]

Mags, Looking at one of your docs (http://www.pmags.com/miscwritings/lwbp101.htm) is almost identical to what I started the AT with in '97 and hiked the CDT with in '02. For some reason though, I'm closer to 15 lbs than 11. I guess carrying a camera, guidebooks, maps and booze all adds up.

You did not read foot note #4: :)

4. Some things on this chart are missing: toiletries, camera, journal, maps, etc. Some of these items depend on the trip, others depend on personal preference and needs . I don’t wear contacts, so I don’t need cleaning solution (for example). I also like keeping a journal. The weight really varies from person to person with these items.

The overall point is the same, though. I bet your AT 1997 gear was heavier than your CDT 02 gear.

My LT97 gear was slightly heavier than my AT98 gear.

I reduced my weight quite a bit for the LT99 trip and even more dramatically for the PCT in 2002.

My CT04 and CDT06 gear were just refinements of the PCT02 gear.

I would not want to hike LT in 1997 with the gear I have now mainly because I did not have the experience set I have now back in 1997. I *could* have hiked the LT97 with my LT99 gear though. Kind of like natural selection. Gradual improvements overtime that lead up to the "evolved" prouct. :-)

***I just finished the book by Dawkins, so evolution is on my mind! :)

[fonsie]

well I am taking my GG Vapor and I think its a little big for all my gear, but you never kno theres alot of spots where you don't want to hike 6-10miles to town to resupply. So its all up to what you pack but take the larger one.

[rswanson]

Soo...you may be able to pick up some pointers by looking at gear lists. But gear is only part of the equation. You need experience, need to know your comfort level, and be aware of the environment to see what works for you.
Mags,

I've got plenty of experience. I'm sure I could make anyone's rack work for me in almost any situation I would encounter on the trail. I'm trying to figure out how someone could possibly get 4 days of gear and food into a 1000 c.i. pack. Now, if Wolf's explanation is "I just carry my food, a trash bag, some extra socks, and a wad of toilet paper, I just sleep on the ground" well, thats nothing I'm interested in. I'm not looking to hike John Muir style but he's carrying a full complement of gear, I want to know what it is because I'm missing some great revelation.

[Wolf - 23000]

For the average person, going light means doing the same mileage with more ease. A side benefit, is that most people can do a 5 MPD more with a lighter load and with the same effort.

Now, to connect all this together, Wolf is one of the most experienced long distance backpackers on the AT and other trails.

Though I am no slouch myself, it took X amount of miles for me to get to sub-10lbs and be comfortable.

If I had Wolf's experience, maybe I would be comfortable with the load.

Just as someone who is looking to go light may not want to copy my gear list verbatim, someone without Wolf's experience may not want to copy HIS list exactly.


Soo...you may be able to pick up some pointers by looking at gear lists. But gear is only part of the equation. You need experience, need to know your comfort level, and be aware of the environment to see what works for you.

Mags,

Very well put. I could not agree more. I have never been a big fan of following someone else gear lists or telling hikers how much he/she should carry. Each hiker travels different - the gear is only there for the ride. A hiker who spends a lot of time hanging around camp is going to use different equipment than someone who spends less time at camp and more time on the trail. That is not a positive or negative. The key is finding the equipment that is right for your hiking style.

Every piece of equipment has been used to hike the AT, PCT, CDT, etc. Hikers who posted their gear list only confirms that someone use @@@ stove, or ### backpack … whoopee. It doesn’t tell you how they like it, some of the advantages/disadvantages to it, what they did prior with their equipment - did they treat it with something or modified it in some way, where they went hiking, what season, were at, were did they make camp. All these things can play a factor in what you need to carry. I approach equipment differently, that one of the reasons I travel lightweight and it works.

Rswanson, what I’m doing is nothing new. I’ve been hiking like this sense 1989 my first long distance hike. Now, I just have a lot more experience compare to what I did back then. The equipment has been around for years, but now it is easier then ever to travel lighter than before.

Wolf

[rswanson]

Rswanson, what I’m doing is nothing new. I’ve been hiking like this sense 1989 my first long distance hike. Now, I just have a lot more experience compare to what I did back then. The equipment has been around for years, but now it is easier then ever to travel lighter than before.
OK, so what is it?

[rswanson]

Maybe that wasn't stated as clearly as it could've been. What equipment are you carrying for a 4 day trip using a 1,000 cubes pack?

[Wolf - 23000]

Rswanson and others,

Please understand, I’m not trying to be a x#y@z but not posting a gear list but it would simple be irresponsible on my part. If you want to travel lightweight, the gear you use is only one piece of the pie. Two hikers can have the exact same equipment but one can be full prepared for anything while the other is completely ill-prepared. Hikers who have the skills, the experience, the knowledge, etc. are more rounded, they are going to know how to lighten the load and do so safely.

I know some lightweight hikers have written books on the subject and I’m happy for them but what most of them lack is how the equipment works the meat and potatoes, the in and outs of the stuff. I could write a complete book on the subject but what I’m not into is promoting ill-prepared hikers. I’ve run into enough of them on the trail – hikers who beg others for food or space in the shelters, hikers who are freezing, etc.

I’m sure there are some hikers that backpack lighter than me. If I run into them, I’m not going to bug them on what they carry. If I want to travel lighter, I’m going to look at my own equipment to cut weight. The best backpacker who knows what you are carrying extra is the one who is carrying it.

Wolf

[Captn]

Wolf,

I must say that I was skeptical of hiking with 1000 cu in pack, that is, until I checked out your profile.

You're in the Army I see ... and that answers a lot of questions. I know a former Marine that goes out for weekends with a poncho, Poncho liner, knife, Canteen, jacket, hat, some food, and whatever pack is handy. And he's none the worse for wear because of it.

I understand that in the Military it's not uncommon for that to be the normal gear list, along with 70 lbs of ammo, for three season sorties.

I got back into Backpacking 4 years ago after a long absence. I had 4500 cu in of gear 4 years ago, downsized to 3700 three years ago, 2700 two years ago, and last year got down below 2000 cu in, good down to 15 degrees.

I can see it, although I can't see it being comfortable.

[rswanson]

Please understand, I’m not trying to be a x#y@z but not posting a gear list but it would simple be irresponsible on my part. If you want to travel lightweight, the gear you use is only one piece of the pie. Two hikers can have the exact same equipment but one can be full prepared for anything while the other is completely ill-prepared. Hikers who have the skills, the experience, the knowledge, etc. are more rounded, they are going to know how to lighten the load and do so safely.
So what you're saying is that in answering my question you're going to be putting people's saftey at risk? I had raised one eyebrow dubiously at your original statement, now the other has followed suit.

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf,

I must say that I was skeptical of hiking with 1000 cu in pack, that is, until I checked out your profile.

You're in the Army I see ... and that answers a lot of questions. I know a former Marine that goes out for weekends with a poncho, Poncho liner, knife, Canteen, jacket, hat, some food, and whatever pack is handy. And he's none the worse for wear because of it.

I understand that in the Military it's not uncommon for that to be the normal gear list, along with 70 lbs of ammo, for three season sorties.

I got back into Backpacking 4 years ago after a long absence. I had 4500 cu in of gear 4 years ago, downsized to 3700 three years ago, 2700 two years ago, and last year got down below 2000 cu in, good down to 15 degrees.

I can see it, although I can't see it being comfortable.

CAPTN,

Yes I am in the Army - currently serving as a Drill Sgt, but I've been backpacking long before I joined the Army. Prior to joining the Army I had already over 21,000 miles as a lightweight backpacker. I'm not putting down the way the Army does things. It is just different then the way I travel.

Wolf

[rswanson]

yo, rwswanson, check wolf's thread: lightweight backpacking tips without a gear list:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18001


he's mentioned before that he doesn't carry a sleeping bag.
I'm looking through this thread but I don't see any suggestions as to how to get a 4 day winter gear and food load into a pack that's smaller than some women's purses. Its mostly just a re-hash of statements I've seen hundreds and hundreds of times in books, magazines, and internet forums, ad nauseum.

And unless one is hiking in a down-filled mountaineering suit (you'd have to hike in it since you don't have the space to carry it in a 1000c.i. pack) how is one supposed to keep from becoming hypothermic at below, say, 45 degrees without some sort of sleeping bag, to say nothing about actually getting any sleep?

In perusing this thread a little more, I come across this:
Yea I been snow on a few time too in the summer without a sleeping bag hiking the PCT. Big Deal. Are you going out there to hike and see nature or are you going out there to spend in a bag?

Wolf

Now, maybe I'm overreacting but this sounds like a far worse statement to make than posting a gear list, if one is concerned about the 'saftey' of novice hikers.

[The Solemates]

I agree with rswanson, this is getting kind of annoying with all the talk by wolf, but I also respect wolf's stand...Ive heard he travels light..ok...who cares?! good for him.

but to answer your question rswanson, it is easily conceivable to hike with 1000ci if a) you dont carry a sleeping bag, as someone stated wolf does not, and b) you resupply with food every day/every other day.

[rswanson]

I agree with rswanson, this is getting kind of annoying with all the talk by wolf, but I also respect wolf's stand...Ive heard he travels light..ok...who cares?! good for him.

but to answer your question rswanson, it is easily conceivable to hike with 1000ci if a) you dont carry a sleeping bag, as someone stated wolf does not, and b) you resupply with food every day/every other day.
Ok, I don't usually get involved in these internet forum p*ssing contests but who in their right mind is going to head out for four days in the winter without a sleeping bag or quilt of some sort? That's just ludicrous. It's also not backpacking, its a bona-fide survival situation.

I'm not talking about a few days in the middle of the spring with good weather, skipping form one resupply point to the next. Wolf seems to be insinuating that he can travel comfortably for four days in winter conditions with gear and food he needs fitting in a 15 liter pack. I'm just looking for proof of this claim.

[The Solemates]

I dont remember him saying 4 days in winter...that came from you.

He said "TN-GA in mid-March" with no mention of hike duration. (although I also wouldnt be surprised if he could use 1000ci in winter for 4 days..like everyone keeps saying...its experience that matters, not gear.)

Conceivably, on the AT a masochist could carry no food, sleep in his clothes at a shelter, have warm 50-60 degree nights in mid-March, and eat when he got to town. In that instance, 1000ci would suffice.

But I think the real issue here is food, not gear. Obviously, he eats in town most of the time, or is not eating healthily (ie, chomping on lard), or is losing weight. Sure gear can be negligible, but food is heavy (again, here let's quantify trip duration...anyone can go without food [or consume minimal food] for a weekend hike. doing this on a long distance hike, however, is obviously impossible.)

i dont mind carrying gear...it doesnt bother me. my pack is 20-30 pounds (depending on season, trip duration etc.), and on top of that I usually carry 4-6 lbs worth of camera gear. others seem to have an obsession with going as light as possible. ive tried that before. it was interesting, but I like to eat too much. this past summer i went to the ozarks for a weekend with my tent, water, and my camera gear. i fasted and slept on the ground (granted it was in the peak of summer with lows at night of 70 minimal). i had fun, it wasnt bad, but then again, Id much rather eat. seems i like eating more than hiking.;)

[Mags]

Ok, I don't usually get involved in these internet forum p*ssing contests



Then don't. :)

Seriously. This is why he is hesitant to post his gear list. I've only met Wolf a handful of times (in a group), so I'd be lying if I say I knew him well.

But, I do know he carries what most people, myself included, would not be comfortable carrying (or not).

I'd be skeptical as well... But, again, Wolf has done more backpacking than most. More importantly, his comfort level is lower than most. He can make do with less gear than most of us. I've also seen people talk loudly, and almost angrily, about his lack of gear. Would I do his method? Hell no!

Don't forget, by most standards, many of us already loonies. When I pull out a "blue foam pad", people are aghast. To our culture? Par for the course.

Saying all that, I think your insistence on knowing the exact gear is more skepticism than your curiosity.. Fine. Can't change your mind about that. :)

But, can you accept that Wolf does not feel comfortable sharing his list and leave it at that? Really..it ain't the end of the world.

So, let's shake hands. Sing Kumbuyya and share the boxed wine I pack on all my social trips. Bottoms up!

(Solemates can share the yummy food. Wine. Food. What more do you need for gear? :)

[Wolf - 23000]

Ok this is getting far fetch. This is what happen when when inexperance hikers let their imagination run wild. News flash it snows also in the summer too.

I never said I don't use a sleeping bag in the winter. I'm sorry, but to say so or hint at so is just plan dumb. Give it a break.

Solemates, have you ever backpack before? For someone who claiming they hiked the AT, the options you put out are just plain dumb. I carry a sleeping bag, stove, etc just like everyone else. I think you you should have stuck with your first statement, I travel lightweight, who cares.

rswanson,

First I do winter hike with sleeping bag. To say different or imply it is just plain DUMB!

Two, I don't care if you believe it or not. I'm not out to impress you. As far as I'm concern your little more than a rookie impressed by gear that's has been around for about the last twenty years. Wow.

I'm sorry everyone else. I just don't like all B.S. some people like to spread about things they don't understand.

Wolf

[mweinstone]

wolf23000? whats the deal with everyone not belveing you? i did the same thing when we first met. why? you dont have to answer. i respect you as a hiker and i hope you come to more gatherings.

[The Solemates]

Solemates, have you ever backpack before? For someone who claiming they hiked the AT, the options you put out are just plain dumb. I carry a sleeping bag, stove, etc just like everyone else. I think you you should have stuck with your first statement, I travel lightweight, who cares.

Wolf

Interesting. I was defending you, and I get attacked. I don't really care...I was just trying to give rswanson some kind of explanation to put his mind at ease. But since you brought it up, no backpack will be 1000ci or less if there is a "sensible" amount of food in it plus gear. I was simply pointing out that there are obviously differing definitions of "sensible". And yes, I think it would be conceivable to do the AT not carrying food. Heck, Warren does it every year :) But again, maybe I just like to eat to much.

[Wolf - 23000]

Solemates,

I don’t mind you putting out how annoying this thread is getting or “Wolf travel lightweight, big deal”. I’m cool with that, but what I didn’t like is when you put out blanket comments about what I don’t carry. You have never seen me backpack and if you had, you would know that I travel quite the opposite. I am more prepared for both good and bad weather then most hikers out there. Just because I choice not to carry the heavy pack weights that others like to carry does mean I’m less prepared. An example would be: A hiker who choices to carry jeans or cotton sweaters over nylon paints/jacket. A hiker carrying Jeans is carrying more weight and is less prepared over someone using nylons. If rswanson whats to act shocked there is lightweight gear that has been around for twenty years could lighten his load well that a reflection on him and his lack of experience.

Your last post about food, please. I have never suggested hikers should travel without adequate amount of food. The most weight I have ever lost on a thru-hike was 6 pounds. Most of my pack weight is food - normal 5 days leaving town. And just from a health stand, traveling with too little of food will cause you to get weaker, became colder quicker, cause you to become sick easier; and it straight out sucks hiking around hungry. I don't suggest anyone carry to little food. On the same note, the less pack weight you carry will also require you to eat less food. It takes your body more energy to hike up and down mountains with 30 pounds when compared with a 10 pound pack. There are other factors but it not one standard fit all which is what I’ve been saying.

In a nut shell, I agree this thread is stupid and has gotten way off topic and thank you for the support :) but please don’t add to it by what you think or don’t think I carry.

Peace.

Wolf

[rswanson]

Against my better judgement I'll follow up. In response to Solemates, I didn't invent this:

The pack I use now is the REI Flash UL, trim down 6 oz. Some of the places I’ve been include 280 miles hiking southbound in mid-March; TN – Springer Mt. (yes I got snowed on a couple times), GA, 150 miles in WY. Little 4 days hikes in Maryland winter/summer. It a great pack that I’ve used now for over 500 miles. I like it and for $25, what a deal!
I live in Maryland and I'm not sure where you can hike for four days continuously but that's beside the point.

In any case Wolf, its been my observation that people who aren't out to impress anyone don't take every opportunity to tout thier accomplishments. I have no idea who you are and I've never met you but I've seen you post dozens of times about how many miles you've hiked and your profile is splattered with a litany of all the trails you've hiked, which may or may not be true. You probably assume I'm a rookie because I don't go waving every mile I've ever hiked like some sort of banner. Maybe I've hiked more than you. Maybe not. But I certainly know I don't need the same ego boost.

[Wolf - 23000]

[quote=rswanson;320418]

I live in Maryland and I'm not sure where you can hike for four days continuously but that's beside the point.

Rswanson,

I used to live in Waynesboro, PA - just over the Maryland boarder; 5 miles off the AT. I had a couple days off so I hiked from RT 16 to Harps Ferry and then back. It made it easier than trying to finding someone willing to drive a couple hours to drop me off.
To simplify I just say 4 days in Maryland this was the bulk of my trip.

In any case Wolf, its been my observation that people who aren't out to impress anyone don't take every opportunity to tout thier accomplishments.

I could not care less if your impress or not.

TN Hiker,

1000 cu/in is all I used hiking from Tenn-Georgia in Mid-March. You don't need anything bigger but you are right, hikers should worry about what they are carrying rather than what everyone else is doing. It make traveling a lot easier.

Wolf


My original post I answered TN Hiker question and told a little bit on where I went. A good backpacker packs for what he/she is going into which is why I included a location and time period on when I used it. There are some places or seasons, I might use different equipment. That the only reason I include the time period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf - 23000
The pack I use now is the REI Flash UL, trim down 6 oz. Some of the places I’ve been include 280 miles hiking southbound in mid-March; TN – Springer Mt. (yes I got snowed on a couple times), GA, 150 miles in WY. Little 4 days hikes in Maryland winter/summer. It a great pack that I’ve used now for over 500 miles. I like it and for $25, what a deal!


I included this statement only when I was asked. And let be honest, hiking 500 miles on this form is not going anyone.


I have no idea who you are and I've never met you but I've seen you post dozens of times about how many miles you've hiked and your profile is splattered with a litany of all the trails you've hiked, which may or may not be true. You probably assume I'm a rookie because I don't go waving every mile I've ever hiked like some sort of banner. Maybe I've hiked more than you. Maybe not. But I certainly know I don't need the same ego boost.

I could care less how many miles you have hiked. All miles are is just a number. That it.

I assume you to be a rookie base on your own post.

Ok, I don't usually get involved in these internet forum p*ssing contests but who in their right mind is going to head out for four days in the winter without a sleeping bag or quilt of some sort? That's just ludicrous. It's also not backpacking, its a bona-fide survival situation.

I'm not talking about a few days in the middle of the spring with good weather, skipping form one resupply point to the next. Wolf seems to be insinuating that he can travel comfortably for four days in winter conditions with gear and food he needs fitting in a 15 liter pack. I'm just looking for proof of this claim.

As you said, you have never met me but yet you want to insist on making stupid comments about my gear. I have never said I winter hike without a sleeping bag and for you to put crap like that is just that crap. I don’t put out rswanson carries a heavy pack so he was be using jeans. Lightweight backpacking is not rocket scientist it been around for a while, but the way your acting it the newest thing.

Bottle line is I didn’t pack your backpack. I’m not your mother. If you want to travel lighter than take out some of the extra you don’t need.

Wolf

[Sly]

In any case Wolf, its been my observation that people who aren't out to impress anyone don't take every opportunity to tout thier accomplishments. I have no idea who you are and I've never met you but I've seen you post dozens of times about how many miles you've hiked and your profile is splattered with a litany of all the trails you've hiked, which may or may not be true. You probably assume I'm a rookie because I don't go waving every mile I've ever hiked like some sort of banner. Maybe I've hiked more than you. Maybe not. But I certainly know I don't need the same ego boost.

That was a little harsh. I don't mind seeing someone's accomplishments listed when I'm seeking advice. If you ever met Wolf in person you'd realize he's a lot more humble than you just sounded.

[neo]

TN Hiker,

1000 cu/in is all I used hiking from Tenn-Georgia in Mid-March. You don't need anything bigger but you are right, hikers should worry about what they are carrying rather than what everyone else is doing. It make traveling a lot easier.

Wolf

my gear is not the problem in pack space,my food is the space hog in my pack:D neo

[Captn]

sample 1000 cu in pack list:

Montbell #3 250 cu in
Montbell inner down jacket 85 cu in.
Rain/wind/shell jacket 85 cu in.
Socks, glove liners & hat 40 cu in.
.6 L cup and al stove 40 cu in.
Toothpaste, etc 40 cu in.
Light tarp 39 cu in
Pad attach to top or bottom of pack.
Water bottles Adventure race style on pack straps
Fuel bottle 30 cu in.
Food 400 cu in.

Not that I would do it myself, but I can very well see it being done, especially if sleeping in shelters.

Warning ... using this type of list requires a LOT of experience to stay warm and dry.

[The Solemates]

sample 1000 cu in pack list:

Food 400 cu in.



Again, food is the main issue in my mind, not gear.

400 cubic inches is 4" x 10" x 10" (for example [there are obviously other configurations]) for a food bag is ridiculous. Note: I am not arguing with Wolf or anyone else, I am just a huge engineer dork trying to grapple a concept, and decided to share my nerdiness publicly.

Example
Let's use this as an example (because the items are somewhat rectangular, and thus easily quantifiable), and which also in my mind implements some of the smallest possible food sources (according to volume):

Breakfast
Oatmeal/grits packages are about 4" x 4" x 1/2" (or 8 cubic inches). On a meager hunger-striken diet, let's say we eat two a day for four days. We are still hungry, so we eat a fruit bar (which at 5" x "2" x 1/2" totals 20 cubic inches over 4 days). That is 52 cubic inches over 4 days. We drink water, but for the sake of argument, I am not including that in the volume calculatons here.

For a snack at mid-morning we eat a Snickers, which is 5" x 1" x 1" (or 5 cubic inches). We eat one and are still hungry, after all we are long-distance hiking. So we eat another. We want third, but we are on a meager hunger-striken diet and we stop. So, that is 5 cubic inches, times 4 days, which yields 40 cubic inches. We drink water, but for the sake of argument, I am not including that in the volume calculatons here.

For the sake of simplification (and to stay with our diet), we eat peanut butter on pita bread for lunch, plain. We carefully took the time to squeeze just the right amount of peanut butter into a tube pre-trip, wasting nothing. The tube is 2" x 6" x 2" (or 24 cubic inches). On our meager hunger-striken diet, we spread it onto only one peice of pita. 4 peices of pita bread for 4 days is about 1" x 1" x 8" (or 8 cubic inches). But we are still hungry, so we eat another snickers (20 cubic inches over 4 days), a handful of dried fruit (we carry an entire "sandwich size" ziploc for the 4 days, which is 6" x 6" x 2", or 72 cubic inches). That is 124 cubic inches total for our lunch for 4 days. We drink water, but for the sake of argument, I am not including that in the volume calculatons here.

For a snack at mid-afternoon we eat a Snickers, which is 5" x 1" x 1" (or 5 cubic inches). We eat one and are still hungry, after all we are long-distance hiking. So we eat another. We want third, but we are on a meager hunger-striken diet and we stop. So, that is 5 cubic inches, times 4 days, which yields 40 cubic inches. We drink water, but for the sake of argument, I am not including that in the volume calculatons here.

For supper, ramen is about 5" x 6" x 1" (or 30 cu in.). On our meager hunger-striken diet, we eat only two, but we do add a little meat. We add one 7-ounce package each night. The chicken packages are about 6" x 8" x 1/2" (or 96 cubic inches over 4 days) So, that is 60 cubic inches a day for the ramen, times 4 days, or 240 cubic inches. Adding the meat, it is 336 cubic inches. We drink water, but for the sake of argument, I am not including that in the volume calculatons here.

All together now,
52 ci (oatmeal/grits), plus
40 ci (snickers morning snack), plus
124 ci (peanut butter lunch), plus
40 ci (snickers afternoon snack), plus
236 ci (ramen supper)
542 total cubic inches for our trip


Hopefully my math isn't off. Regardless, on this diet (which in my mind is not near enough for long-distance hiking), we still cannot get it down to even 500 cubic inches. Even if we could, geometric contraints would not lets us stuff it into a 500 cubic inch bag. We would need at least a 600 cubic inch bag to fit 500 cubic inches worth of food, and get it closed. And note that this estimate doesn't even take water into effect. Better take a mug to dip from every stream we cross! And we better hit the trail towns for some grub! I'm starvin...now where's that Snickers?:-?

[rswanson]

[As you said, you have never met me but yet you want to insist on making stupid comments about my gear. I have never said I winter hike without a sleeping bag and for you to put crap like that is just that crap. I don’t put out rswanson carries a heavy pack so he was be using jeans. Lightweight backpacking is not rocket scientist it been around for a while, but the way your acting it the newest thing.

Bottle line is I didn’t pack your backpack. I’m not your mother. If you want to travel lighter than take out some of the extra you don’t need
Wolf,

I'm not making 'stupid comments' about your gear. Boston mentioned that you hiked without a sleeping bag and I took his word for it. I don't hike in jeans. I don't carry a particularly heavy pack. I'm not a 'rookie'. You're making at least as many assumptions about me as I am of you. I still don't understand why you're so hesitant to post a list of what you carry but at this point I don't think anyone really cares. Take your last parting shots at this post if you must but then let's just agree to bury the hatchet.

[The Solemates]

the ramen supper number should be 336 cubic inches in the grand total. reference the text above it for proof :)

[rswanson]

All together now,
52 ci (oatmeal/grits), plus
40 ci (snickers morning snack), plus
124 ci (peanut butter lunch), plus
40 ci (snickers afternoon snack), plus
236 ci (ramen supper)
542 total cubic inches for our trip
That's actually a really interesting breakdown of food volume. I've never gotten that analytical with the numbers; usually I'm more focused on weight than volume. That does sound about right though, for a minimal diet. Eyeballing your menu, it looks like less than 3000 calories per day. Do-able, but not optimal by any stretch. I'm sure 400-500 c.i could be done if you carried some sort of high calorie protein paste.

[Captn]

That's actually a really interesting breakdown of food volume. I've never gotten that analytical with the numbers; usually I'm more focused on weight than volume. That does sound about right though, for a minimal diet. Eyeballing your menu, it looks like less than 3000 calories per day. Do-able, but not optimal by any stretch. I'm sure 400-500 c.i could be done if you carried some sort of high calorie protein paste.

I was using this as an intellectual exercise, so bear with me here ....

Minimizing food size, I caculated that a balance bar, at 200 cals, is 5 cu in, or 40 cals per cubic inch. 400 cu in would yield 80 bars max, which would yield 16000 calories, or 3,555 calories per day for 4.5 days.

Assuming, of course, that you can choke down another balance bar after you've eaten 70 of them in a row.

[rafe]

Assuming, of course, that you can choke down another balance bar after you've eaten 70 of them in a row.

Hiking is supposed to be fun.... :cool:

[Captn]

Hiking is supposed to be fun.... :cool:

Andrew Skurka's, on his 7000+ mile quest, ate a diet of about 2lbs of food per day comprised of a dehydrated meal for dinner and balance bars during the day.

I've done this for long weekends, mixing and matching whole grain energy bars with a Pro Pack meal for dinner ... it's light, but tasty it's not.

So ... there's been a lot of discussion on caloric density of foods, as related to weight of that food ....

But what about caloric density as related to volume?

What is the average caloric density per cubic inch of food volume carried by the average thru? Average nutritive density?

Yep ... us engineer geek types just have to take it that extra mile, don't cha know ....

[Captn]

So ... I just went through and calculated my normal long weekend kit volumes, based on my favorite pack, temps low of 10 assumed.

I have an old GoLite Day Pack, with a main body of about 1100 cu in, a 450 cu in extension collar, and about 450 cu in of external pockets.

Carrying my tarp, windshirt, water, and sleeping pad external to the pack, attached or in pockets, leaves me about 300 cu in. in the pack for a food bag, not including the extension collar. Assuming that I can use that extension collar volume, I would have space for about 750 cu in of food, not including the first day's food that can be carried in the kangaroo pocket if necessary. I think that's doable.

I think I understand why Scott Williamson, the PCT Yo-yo man, said this was the perfect pack for thru-hiking as long as you can re-supply every 4 to 5 days.

Gear boils down to a Gatewood cape, light longjohns, one extra tee shirt, two extra pairs of socks, 30degree bag, 48 inch Nightlight pad, a DWR bivy, a backup 1/2 vapor Barrier liner, light gloves, balaclava, a high loft pullover, and a high loft vest. These calculations are with a Jetboil ... although I may prefer a whitebox alcy setup for about the same total volume.


Baseweight around 7 lbs. Question is .... is 750 cu in of food enough?

[rafe]

Yep ... us engineer geek types just have to take it that extra mile, don't cha know ....

Believe me, I understand.... but I've done a 180 over the years with regard to food. My strategy these days (for the AT) is 3-4 days food, max, and no mail drops -- because my tastes and appetite just aren't predictable, long-term. If I'm not happy with the food I've got, it's that much harder to enjoy the hike.

[Wolf - 23000]

I admit, I'm a computer geek just like the next person but at some you all need to put away the computer/pen & paper; take out your pack and just do it.

Wolf

[The Solemates]

Carrying my tarp, windshirt, water, and sleeping pad external to the pack, attached or in pockets, leaves me about 300 cu in. in the pack for a food bag, not including the extension collar. Assuming that I can use that extension collar volume, I would have space for about 750 cu in of food, not including the first day's food that can be carried in the kangaroo pocket if necessary. I think that's doable.



Herein lies a huge factor. I can strap all kinds of stuff on the outside of a small pack and say I carry a 1000 cubic inch pack. Heck, I can do that and carry less than a 1000 cubic inch pack! I understand your thinking, but obviously there is need to clarify such things. I, for instance, only carry water external to my pack.



Gear boils down to a Gatewood cape, light longjohns, one extra tee shirt, two extra pairs of socks, 30degree bag, 48 inch Nightlight pad, a DWR bivy, a backup 1/2 vapor Barrier liner, light gloves, balaclava, a high loft pullover, and a high loft vest. These calculations are with a Jetboil ... although I may prefer a whitebox alcy setup for about the same total volume.



You assumed a 10 degree night. Does a 30 degree bag, "light" longjohns, "light" gloves, no hat, and a 3/8" peice of foam that only covers half your body really keep you warm in such conditions during a long distance hike?

[Captn]

The Bivy, VP Liner, Vest, and Gatewood cape are all factors.

I've used a torso pad, #3 bag, Vest, DWR Bivy and the Gatewood down to 20, with light longjohns, and been toasty. In fact, I just used the 30 degree bag as a quilt ... I didn't even zip it up. I toss my pack under my legs and my shoes under my feet.

The VP liner adds about 15 degrees for me, and the light longjohns are mainly to prevent that clammy feeling .... I also have made a 1/2 inch Bivy Liner quilt that, without the VP liner, takes me down to single digits. It weighs in at 9 oz, but takes up almost 200 cu in on it's own. What you're sleeping on would make a HUGE difference .... a Shelter floor would be a LOT colder than a nice matted down grassy area, IMO.

Oh ... and the Balaclava is what I carry for a hat ... it works amazingly well although I also have a Ray-way Bomber hat on the sewing table right now ... 1.1 oz of 0.9 inch thick, warm comfort.

Not that I'm looking for an argument, but my 3/4 inch Insulmat Inflatable folds flat in the bottom of my pack, taking up about an inch of height (about 50 cu inches compressed).

I tried this out last night and managed to fit everything but water into the pack, leaving about 800 cu inches of space including the extension collar. Only water external to the pack, 1500 cu in. With the inflatable pad, I used about 700 cu in. I could cut that back a little more if I replaced my Jetboil with my Alcy setup and carried the fuel in a side pocket.

Like I said .... I don't see it as being very comfortable, and I don't think you'll ever see me doing it, but I can see where someone can do it.

Heck ... Grandma Gatewood did it .....

[TurkeyBacon]

"But anyway, what I've noticed is that both of my packs seem to be much smaller than what other people have used for thruhikes. Just curious, what are some of the smaller pack sizes you've used, or seen used, for a thruhike?"

If you think that 3100 is too large for a thru-hike, that means you are an ultralighter. Most thru-hikers try to be a lighter hiker and many reach 3100 and stop. So why is your pack smaller than most, because you care. Which is cool, it doesn't mean its right or wrong, just yours.
As far as the smallest pack... The Mailman hiked in 02 with a Cammelback Mule. The mailman was unique however. Most likely he was ADD or a variation. The name came from the fact that you could give him a message and he would find that hiker X number of day ahead of you and he would deliver the message for you. The night I met him(breifly) was at 501 shelter in Pa. It was about to storm... pretty bad. It was just about dark and he came in. He snacked on the extra large bag of skittles that was all the food he had packed for 3 days. He got bored staying there and he left into a rain storm into the night. According to the grapevine he ended up getting a few hours of sleep after the rain ended around 4 am and did more crazy miles the next day. I beleive he had no sl bag, no stove/cookpot, a poncho for rain and shelter, ate at gas stations and restaurants and that bag of skittles or other snacks he bought, he had hiked 40+ miles a couple of times, 30 routinely, 20 was about a few miles he would ever hike... Like I said, he was probably ADD (which is not an insult). Not normal for an AT thru-hiker, but he was an AT thru-hiker and was most definately the smallest pack I saw used on my thru-hike. Currently the Mule is listed at 549 cu in and a 100 oz bladder separate from that. It does have an expandable mesh pocket...
TB