View Full Version : average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ????
markellag
02-13-2007, 13:23
What is the average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ????
I would like to know average incline % grade in North Carolina so when I go to the gym and use the treadmill, I can set the treadmill to the
average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina. I will be hiking the AT in NC.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-13-2007, 13:28
May I suggest varying the incline as you train on the treadmill. The treadmills at the gym where I did my advanced PT has a program that automatically varied the incline and speed. I set the machine to run that and set a difficulty level. If your gym doesn't have this, you could vary it yourself as you workout.
I have a spreadsheet with the elevation figures from the Companion, and from that deduced that the maximum percent incline is 82%, the maximum descent is 55%, and the average is 0.35%.
I think that 100% is a 45 degree angle.
Since the descent and ascent data are necessarily between specific points, you should expect that you'll actually encounter steeper portions here and there. In many cases, you might even need to move from a treadmill to a climbing wall or other means of cross-training.
Better yet, get out and find some hills.
I think it works as follows. a 528' rise in one mile is a 10% grade. Conversely, a 100% grade would be 5280' in one mile or a 90 degree angle aka straight up. So, a 45 degree angle would be a 50% grade and a 2640' rise in one mile.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-13-2007, 14:23
Whoa -- the max on most treadmills is 10 - 12%. I used a stairmaster to build my climbing strength.
Whoa -- the max on most treadmills is 10 - 12%. I used a stairmaster to build my climbing strength.
For the most part the longest climbs are 10-12% grade. Three Ridges north or the Priest south come to mind. 15-20% grades, which are about the max, are typically shorter.
bigcranky
02-13-2007, 14:44
I think it works as follows. a 528' rise in one mile is a 10% grade. Conversely, a 100% grade would be 5280' in one mile or a 90 degree angle aka straight up. So, a 45 degree angle would be a 50% grade and a 2640' rise in one mile.
A 100% grade is a 45 degree angle. You go up one foot for every foot you travel forward.
A 90 degree angle would be a grade of infinity -- you would ONLY go up, never forward. Yes, there are places on the trail where it feels like that :).
Technically, the average grade in NC is close to zero -- the downhills cancel out the uphills, generally speaking. But the average steep-ish climb is about 500 feet per mile, or about a 10 percent grade. In some places there are 1000-ft-per-mile climbs, but they are blessedly short.
I would agree that it would be better to vary the angle of a treadmill. Also, wear a pack -- get those other gym rats talking about you. :D
A 100% grade is a 45 degree angle. You go up one foot for every foot you travel forward.
You're not always traveling forward, but up! I know there are angles steeper than 45 degrees. NH, Katahdin come to mind.
vipahman
02-13-2007, 15:41
Sly is wrong. Froggy and BigCranky are correct. 45 degrees = 100% slope.
The grade (as commonly seen on roads signs) is the ratio of the altitude change to the distance traversed. So if you go up/down 1 mile in 1 mile, that a 100% grade averaging out to 45-degree angle.
So a 10% grade which is considered steep for heavy vehicles is a 0.1 mile altitide change in 1 mile.
Do not confuse 100% with maxing out because you can definitely be climbing a 90-degree cliff face (altitude change only) without any forward movement. The grade of a 90-degree slope is infinity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28slope%29
vipahman
02-13-2007, 15:48
You're not always traveling forward, but up! I know there are angles steeper than 45 degrees. NH, Katahdin come to mind.
While I haven't climbed Katahdin, most of the AT is nowhere near 45-degrees or 100%.
And just as looking down a 20-degree ski slope might seem to be 45-degrees, looking up a 20-degree hiking slope also seems gives the impression of 40-degrees. The most accurate method for trail use is to use your inclinometer in your compass. You will be very surprised with the reduced numbers.
Sly is wrong. Froggy and BigCranky are correct. 45 degrees = 100% slope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28slope%29
LOL... It wouldn't be the 1st time!
What is the average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ?
It's steeper than steep, but not the steepest. Someone once said something similar to me to describe a particular green color.:D
Enjoy your hike in North Carolina.:sun
D'Artagnan
02-13-2007, 16:03
For what it's worth, I've never been able to come close to replicating trail conditions on a treadmill. It beats nothing, of course. I would follow FD's suggestion and use a varying-elevation program.
Now, if you could go 4 or 5 days without showering, roll the treadmill into a sauna and release a few thousand flying insects, well..... :D
So what's the grade/angle is a 528' rise in one mile, and a 1056' rise in one mile?
The Solemates
02-13-2007, 16:08
While I haven't climbed Katahdin, most of the AT is nowhere near 45-degrees or 100%.
And just as looking down a 20-degree ski slope might seem to be 45-degrees, looking up a 20-degree hiking slope also seems gives the impression of 40-degrees. The most accurate method for trail use is to use your inclinometer in your compass. You will be very surprised with the reduced numbers.
Being a snow skier as well as a hiker, i think i have a pretty good eye out for such things. A 20-degree slope on skis is relatively moderate for most skiers. A 45-degree slope on skis is relatively moderate for an experienced skier. Hiking is obviously a little different.
With that said....excellent comment on the definition of incline given above....but....there are certainly places on the AT where there is a 45-degree slope along the trail, albeit these stretches are very short and few and far between. katahdin is obviously one of them. heading up kinsman nobo is another than comes to mind. i'm sure there are others as well.
I'm thinking of one of those half circle thingies where a straight line is 180 degrees. Raising my arm straight up is 90 degrees. In between is 45 degrees. I know(think) I've climbed between 45 and 90.
What about Mt Albert?
I've found, at least for me, that 200 feet per mile (3.8% grade) is a noticeable grade, 400 feet per mile (7.6% grade) is a bit of work, call it moderate, and 600 feet per mile (11.3%) or more counts as steep.
It's still just walking, though. You'll know when it becomes climbing.
Incidentally, since I use a gps on the trails out here in Colorado, feet per mile makes a lot of sense.
And for you pilots out there, if your plane has a hot-day gross-weight angle of climb of less than 300 feet per mile at the conditions for which you are planning a departure, don't try it unless it's a) calm, and b) darn flat out there, and c) you feel lucky.
What is the average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ????
I would like to know average incline % grade in North Carolina so when I go to the gym and use the treadmill, I can set the treadmill to the
average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina. I will be hiking the AT in NC.
Techically zero. The ups and downs are about equal, varying only by the change in elevation from the beginning to the end of your walk.
Practically speaking a treadmill in no way equates with trail conditions. For training purposes, set it at the highest level possible. You'll still find many sections of the AT that are much steeper.
Better yet, if possible, find a woodland trail near you with a lot of ups and downs and few graded sections and walk it as often as possible -- and with a pack that is quite a bit heavier than any you expect to carry.
If you are an ultralighter double your expected weight. If you will be carrying 35-45 pounds on the trail, practice with a 50 pound pack.
Remember also that the best training for the trail is to walk the trail. Start your walk by going slow. And speed up as your strength increases, though this advice works better for very long distance hikers and thru hikers than it does for those who can spend only a week or two on the trail at a time.
WEary
The Solemates
02-13-2007, 16:52
What about Mt Albert?
I almost included that in my examples, but did not know if it would meet the requirements or not.
Fannypack
02-13-2007, 16:55
So what's the grade/angle is a 528' rise in one mile, and a 1056' rise in one mile?
The key to understanding this situation is "we must realize that angle of inclination and grade are 2 different terms".
1) grade is a percentage, i.e., a ratio, rise over run, vertical change over horizontal change....
2) An angle is in degrees
With this said, u asked to calculate the grade and angle (of inclination) for a rise of 528 ft over 5280 ft distance:
grade = 528 divided by 5280 = .1 ; then convert to a percentage, so it is 10%
angle = arctan (528/5280) = arctan(.1) equals approximately 5.7 degrees...(angle of inclination)
SLY, this discussion started with a question "average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ????"
and I would say that the bigcranky post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=321545&post=321545) is prolly a good answer....
Just remember angle and grade do not describe the same thing.
the_iceman
02-13-2007, 17:40
A 12 foot rise in 100 linear feet is a 12% grade. Which is weird because a 45 degree angle of ascent is considered 100% grade which means at that angle you are climbing 100 feet for every 100 linear feet. While a 90 degree angle is straight up with no linear movement what kind of grade does an 89 degree angle of ascent give you? Must be around a 199% grade. It is kind of like booze for you drinkin folks. 100 proof is only 50% alcohol.
I do a lot of biking and average grade is usually reported only for climbs cause who cares about going down on a bike. Steps downgrades hiking are tough on the knees.
I know the steepest road I have ever ridden was in Massachusetts and it was a 17.5 percent grade. BTW, I have biked up Alpes d’Huez which hit just over 12.5% in spots on the 8.5 mile climb. I know there are spots on the trail where you climb at close to an 70 or 80 degree angle for short distances. South Bound the Jug End Cliffs in MA and palaces in the Whites. Delorme Topo software shows grades on a route.
Fannypack
02-13-2007, 17:47
on this page:
http://www.janegalt.net/archives/004838.html
u will find some interesting info about grades of roads, mountains, etc.
This is an extract from the page above:
When ski jumpers land, the hill is 55% to 70% grade (or 30-35 degrees) roughly the angle of repose for fallen snow.
San Francisco's Lombard street averages 14.3% grade. (you can find 12% to 18% streches of backroads in most states - both the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta Espana have regular climbs with bits at this grade)
Highway engineers typically limit interstate grades to 7%.
For normal railroads its closer to 2%.
Most mountain communities, you cant have any part of a driveway over 7% without snowmelt - for fire access.
Water will drain off concrete with a .01% grade
Jim Adams
02-13-2007, 17:49
Numbers do not mean anything....don't start to worry until you begin to get your teeth stuck in your shoelaces!!!!
geek
markellag
02-14-2007, 09:07
I talkked to Precor Technical support yesterday. I though their machines showed grade for incline. They do not. The numbers for incline are not calibrated. For example, 12 on incline on a Precor treadmill is just more than 11 and less than 13.
The key to understanding this situation is "we must realize that angle of inclination and grade are 2 different terms".
1) grade is a percentage, i.e., a ratio, rise over run, vertical change over horizontal change....
2) An angle is in degrees
With this said, u asked to calculate the grade and angle (of inclination) for a rise of 528 ft over 5280 ft distance:
grade = 528 divided by 5280 = .1 ; then convert to a percentage, so it is 10%
angle = arctan (528/5280) = arctan(.1) equals approximately 5.7 degrees...(angle of inclination)
SLY, this discussion started with a question "average incline % grade on the AT in North Carolina ????"
and I would say that the bigcranky post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=321545&post=321545) is prolly a good answer....
Just remember angle and grade do not describe the same thing.
To finish off Sly's question, 1056 feet in a mile is a 20% grade. And yes, on Katahdin and a couple of other places, you might very well be going straight up or close to it for very short distances.
This is an extract from the page above:
When ski jumpers land, the hill is 55% to 70% grade (or 30-35 degrees) roughly the angle of repose for fallen snow.
San Francisco's Lombard street averages 14.3% grade. (you can find 12% to 18% streches of backroads in most states - both the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta Espana have regular climbs with bits at this grade)
Highway engineers typically limit interstate grades to 7%.
For normal railroads its closer to 2%.
Most mountain communities, you cant have any part of a driveway over 7% without snowmelt - for fire access.
Water will drain off concrete with a .01% gradeTo elaborate a bit upon the above:
On a railroad, 0.5% is a noticeable grade (i.e., you will need a significant increase in power to get up it without slowing.) 1% is considered steep; the highest you'll see on a normal railroad (without cogs or other assistive devices) is about 4.5% percent.
The steepest grade on the entire Pennsylvania Turnpike (which by today's standards was not flattened out much) is about 3%. The highest on the entire interstate system is about 9%. Paved roads probably top out at about 20%.
Technically, the average grade in NC is close to zero -- the downhills cancel out the uphills
I see what you are saying, but it is deceiving, sort of like saying you don't climb any hills if you walk across the US from sea level at the Atlantic to sea level at the Pacific.
It requires you to do a mathematical trick of defining downhills as negative uphills rather than simply grades in themselves.
Average grade traveled is more: If you go up at 30% grade for a mile, then down a 30% grade for another mile, the average grade traveled would be 30%, not zero.
I see what you are saying, but it is deceiving, sort of like saying you don't climb any hills if you walk across the US from sea level at the Atlantic to sea level at the Pacific.
It requires you to do a mathematical trick of defining downhills as negative uphills rather than simply grades in themselves.
Average grade traveled is more: If you go up at 30% grade for a mile, then down a 30% grade for another mile, the average grade traveled would be 30%, not zero.
Of course. But equally deceiving is to use average up hill grades for training purposes. The hiker is less concerned with averages than with the length and steepness of severe sections.
Weary
The hiker is less concerned with averages than with the length and steepness of severe sections.
When planning, or before I get to a trail, I look for averages and plan my basic itinerary accordingly. It's not until I'm faced with a particular climb, do I care how steep or long it is.
the_iceman
02-14-2007, 19:20
Probably a more meaningful number if it was available would be the number of miles of climbing in a section and the average grade of the climbs. Or maybe total amount of elevation gain without subtracting decents. Most people care more about the effort to go up not flat or down.
Over a long section, if you know your ups, you can pretty much count on knowing your downs. Springer starts at 3700' the trails ends at Katahdin at 5260' for a difference of 1560' In the middle, there is somewhere along the lines of 450,000' of gain, which works out to over 400' per mile on the ups, likewise for the downs.
Of course most of your elevation is in the south and north with the mid section being somewhat flatter..
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2007, 21:53
Over a long section, if you know your ups, you can pretty much count on knowing your downs. Springer starts at 3700' the trails ends at Katahdin at 5260' for a difference of 1560' In the middle, there is somewhere along the lines of 450,000' of gain, which works out to over 400' per mile on the ups, likewise for the downs.
Of course most of your elevation is in the south and north with the mid section being somewhat flatter..
Approx. 90 vertical miles in climbs over the 2175 miles of the trail. As there are as many downs as ups the 90 miles of climbs most likely average being accomplished in 1087 miles. 90 / 1087 = .08, so the average grade on the AT is approximately 8%.
Kerosene
02-15-2007, 10:45
For my section hikes I've taken to estimating the total vertical per mile (ascents + descents), which gives me a much better appreciation for the difficulty of a section than mileage alone. Roughness of the trail surface (i.e., boulder hopping versus smooth, pine-needle covered) also contributes a lot to degree of difficulty and speed, but I haven't figured out how to incorporate that yet. I've found that I can do some big mile days when I'm averaging less than 400 feet of vertical change per mile. Once it gets above 600'/mile I realize that I'll be pretty tired at the end of that day.