View Full Version : Supershelter vs No Sniveler
vaporjourney
02-16-2007, 11:47
I'm still not converted to a Hammock user just yet, but after stumbling upon the SuperShelter system, my interested has been turned upon them again. Add to that the new Hyperlite hammock, and I may just spring for one.
The main reason I never got a hammock before was because of winter camping, and my unwillingness to purchase one of the really expensive JRB nosniviler underquilt systems for 4 seasons use. The SuperShelter looks to be a good bit cheaper, lighter weight, and packs down much smaller. I'm concerned about warmth though. Can the SuperShelter keep you as warm as the JRB system that uses down for insulation?
hammock engineer
02-16-2007, 14:25
I have not used the HH super shelter. I read mixed reviews. There are a couple people here that love them, and I have read a lot about people hating them
I have the JRB nest and really like it. It is basically the NS without the head hole. In retrospect I would be the NS for the hed hole next time.
If you can sew and are willing to experiment and take some time, they are really easy to make. I made my tarp, hammock, hammock suspension, and bugnetting for around $60. I have a HH that is sitting home for my thru because of how much I like it.
BTW I made it do -10 deg last week with my homemade setup, the nest, ccp for walmart, and hammock sock. I was plenty warm.
FanaticFringer
02-16-2007, 17:56
I'm still not converted to a Hammock user just yet, but after stumbling upon the SuperShelter system, my interested has been turned upon them again. Add to that the new Hyperlite hammock, and I may just spring for one.
The main reason I never got a hammock before was because of winter camping, and my unwillingness to purchase one of the really expensive JRB nosniviler underquilt systems for 4 seasons use. The SuperShelter looks to be a good bit cheaper, lighter weight, and packs down much smaller. I'm concerned about warmth though. Can the SuperShelter keep you as warm as the JRB system that uses down for insulation?
I have both the No Sniveller and Nest quilts. I have tried using both of them at the same time as underquilts but dont really like the idea. A better option IMO than the SuperShelter is to just get a No Sniveller and buy a Speer SPE: www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm
Or just use you current sleeping bag on top.
FanaticFringer
02-16-2007, 17:59
I have the Hennessy Hyperlight and it is one sweet hammock.:banana
vaporjourney
02-17-2007, 13:00
I apologize for starting this thread without doing further research first. After spotting the Hyperlite, I've gotten excited about the idea of hammocking again, so posted whatever was on the top of my head.
The SuperShelter is much more expensive than I was expecting as well. If I only had a sewing machine and time (leaving march 17), I would probably just sew an undercover myself, instead of paying over $100 for a piece of silnylon. The Nest is too expensive for me, plus is a tad too heavy. Although I guess If I wind up with a SuperShelter, then either Garlington insulators or the SPE, it would really even out...
hammock engineer
02-17-2007, 13:03
Don't worry about it. We are all happy to answer hammocking questions.
What's your weight restrictions. There are a couple hammockers that post gear lists with 10 lbs or less base weight.
OK, let me preface this with "its just one opinion". But on this subject of underquilt vs supershelter, I have recently developed a fairly strong one.
I have a HH explorer ultralight. (Also 2 or 3 homemade Speers, one with 3-4" polarguard 3D sewn in the bottom).
Supershelter: Last year I purchased the supershelter, bottom and foam pad, not the overcover. I've always used the space blanket over the foam pad. Never had any condensation problems, although I've never had condensation problems on the bottom, even when sleeping directly on ccf pads. It fit well (like it was designed for the hammock, which I guess it is) and requires almost no fiddling with adjustment. The seam in the middle of the undercover is tighter than the rest of the undercover (I'm assuming by design to hold the undercover up tight against the hammock?) so when I'm not in it, it forms a "W" shape. Its not as comfortable as using the hammock with nothing (the width is restricted a little so its not as wide and I can feel the bottom seam from the middle of the "w" a little) but its more comfortable than ccf pads. I've used it several times in cold weather, down to 35degF with no additional bottom insulation, down to 20F adding a blue Target ccf pad. This system generally meets my requirements for cool weather backpacking, the bulk and weight are good and the comfort is acceptable (but not as comfortable as the homemade with 3D sewn in bottom insulation, which is warm and super comfortable but fails my bulk/weight criteria for bacpacking).
Underquilt: In order to try to improve comfort, this fall I purchased an "Old Rag Mtn" down quilt and weathershield from JRB. I posted on my initial problems fitting this, and you all gave me lots of good tips - (Just Jeff, thanks again for pointing out the length difference with the weather shield). Even after incorporating all the advice, I am suprised at the performance - its just not as warm as I expected. Its acceptable by itself at maybe 45-40 F, no lower and its not OK then if its not fitted just right. Lower than that and I need ccf pads. It actually seems worse with the weathershield installed (even after lengthening the loops like Jeff suggests). I'm sure, like many of you have suggested, that this is due to fitting problems, but I'm sorry, even after getting a friend to adjust it with me in it, its not that warm. And when I'm by myself, getting in and out 3-4 times to screw with the fit is a PIA. In my opinion the SS is a superior system.
Last night it got down to 8F here and with Presidents day off I had a chance to experiment. I wore sweat pants, polypro top with fleece jacket and fleece hat. Used my Western Mountaineering Kodiak (they really make good stuff!) as a top quilt. McCat Deluxe with sides pullled down fairly steep although wind was only 5 mph. With the underquilt I couldn't get enough CCF in the hammock to keep my bottom side warm. I changed out to the supershelter (this is no fun at 8F, 1AM in the dark - can't do it with gloves on, man did my hands get cold!) I thinks its testament to the SS design that I could install it under these conditions. I used the Target blue ccf pad inside. After 45 minutes my butt was starting to get cold, I added a small 2' section of a ridgerest (I usually carry this on the back of my pack as a sit pad) and all was toasty. Only condensation was on the bag around my face.
In my opinion, the SS works better than underquilts, which really suprises me. Just looking at the thing, it shouldn't be that warm. I'm starting to think that the fitting of "whatever" to the bottom of the hammock is the most critical factor. I don't have the patience/skill to do DIY with down (tried one, never again), otherwise I'd try to sew a down bottom on a homemade Speer.
Oh, one final comment, the Old Rag Mtn. is an awesome quilt, I'm very glad that I bought it. After using it as a top quilt, my homemade Jardine polarguard quilts will not be seeing much use anymore. Just can't beat down for bulk/weight/performance.
Thats just my 2 cents on the subject, sorry if its contrary to others' experience with underquilts.
PS: You gotta know hammocks are soooo comfortable for me to go thru all this so I can still hang in the wintertime!
hey, i agree... i'm getting ready to do a NY section in a couple of weeks with my supershelter, and have found it to be wonderful. i like that i can vary the amount of insulating stuff i have to carry depending on the weather -- from just using the undercover when around 40 or so (really light!) to adding the supershelter foam when around 30 or so, to adding a space blanket and additional foam when down to around 10 or 20... the over cover really really really helps... and i tend to use half of it when windy, tying the loose lee side off with the rain fly. i haven't had any condensation problems with the over cover, but like to keep one side partially up so i can see out!
stevenleelazarus, does your SS undercover seem tighter at the middle seam, so it forms a W shape instead of the typical U shape when you look at it from the end on?
I found the same with my set up. I use the ss by its self to about 38 than i add the nest under it. then i'm good to at least 14 ,as that was all the lower it got the night i set up at the pa. ruck. i'm starting a thru on the 27th of march. will carry both ss and nest. i also have a 20 wm bag i use as quilt. i may sent bag home and use nest inside and ss on bottom after i pass mt. rodgers not sure yet but something will go by then and then i'll pick back up in NH.
n2o2diver
02-19-2007, 22:52
I am a HH SS user as well. I have had very good results as well. I use my SS with the Space blanket and use a JRB "OLD RAG MTN" Quilt inside. This weekend I used it down to 22-25 degrees. I was wearing wool socks, light weight polypro long johns, a light pair of pants and a long sleeve synthetic shirt. I woke up at 2 am and my shoulders were chilly so I put on a fleece jacket and hat and slept until 9am. At times I was too warm and kicked off the quilt, mistake. Got cold again very quickly. I like the flexibility of the SS and the minimal fuss it takes to install. I actually always leave the bottom on the hammock. I slip the foam and space blanket in as needed. I find that around 38-40 I need the space blanket.
BillyBob58
02-20-2007, 22:39
Wow, this is a great thread. I didn't realize there were this many fellow successful users of the SS at this site! And it's great to see it compared with the nest€ and also see it used with the nest, by those who have both. Mostly, these results with the SS so far are similar to mine. I agree with the statement that this thing is far warmer than it seems like it should be.
So far, I have been able to take it down to 18* ( back yard conditions only!) after learning how to soup the thing up with the extra torso/kidney pads, plus a garlington insulator under the legs/feet part of the pad, and a down vest OR a fleece jacket( not both) under the upper pad. (no overcover though) On the following night, I did even better( or at least as good at 18*) removing all of the stuff from under the pad and putting a ridgerest/SPE inside. So basic SS, kidney/torso, spaceBl, and SPE. My back/behind/calves was not cold at this temp with either of the above set ups, with it being unknown at what temp I would have needed more. But of course, there is no reason why I couldn't use the Garlington insulator/fleece jacket under booster at the same time with the SPE. There is a lot of flexibility with this system.
Another advantage is that rather than worrying about splashup, you also gain some extra water and wind protection at the same weight. Maybe not much, but definitely some. In the wilds, using the basic SS plus SB (but NO kidney/torso pads or other clothing added underneath and no pads) I was comfortable in the 30's.
But I remain torn between this and the utter simplicity of the speer hammock and just the SPE/pads. (though the SPE by itself should work just as well in the HH). The last night of the experiment, it only got down to 25*. So I used the Speer, the SPE, a full length Ridgerest PLUS a 1" thick 3/4 length thermarest ultralight (that I bought in 1983!) and my usual clothing and bag. I was so warm that after about an hour, I was actually overheating, and for the first time I was actually able to use my bag truly like an over quilt. And though many talk of the simplicity of the SS, I actually find it a bit complicated compared to just laying down in the Speer on top of the SPE and however many pads you might need. And then having things I might need within reach on the ground. And if you have enough pads to be warm in the hammock, then your guaranteed to be all set in case of having to go to ground.
But then there is that whole pad thing, and some are quite against having to use one due to comfort reasons. But that simply hasn't been a problem for me so far. I'm still VERY comfortable on these pads inside an SPE in the hammock. There are even some advantages, as I think I can lay even flater on the pad, and the full length pad with wings opens up the hammock doing a great job keepin the netting off of my face and keeping the hammock from compressing the loft at the foot of my bag. Would the soft hammock bottom be more comfy than a pad/SPE? Probably. But for me it's not a huge diff, like going from gound to hammock is. It's plenty comfortable for me, and very warm, simple as can be, and bombproof, and easily convertible to a ground system. And I love being able to reach out of the hammock. Although, I actually prefer, in some ways, the HH bottom entry when just considering getting in an out of the hammock if a pad is not involved.
If I was heading out on a a weeklong or more cold weather trip tomorrow, I'm not sure which system I would take. HHSS backed up with a RR/SPE, or the Speer hammock and an SPE with a couple of pads. But for the moment I am slightly leaning towards the Speer/SPE for cold weather. And towards the HH SS for moderately cold weather and or a real threat of bugs. But who knows? Both approaches seem quite capable in either situation.
vaporjourney
02-24-2007, 12:35
-How much clothing are you guys wearing to bed? I'm used to wearing lots of clothes in a tent to save weight (3-4 torso layers, 2 bottom layers), and am willing to continue this in a hammock.
-How would using a torso length ridgerest instead of the sensitive underpad work? Would it be able to keep you nearly as warm as the open cell foam pad, that I know is a little wider and longer?
I'm basically trying to avoid the supershelter system now because of its high price, and perhaps just buy another silnylon undercover somewhere else, or try to make my own. Then I'll just use trash bags filled with leaves/space blankets under the hammock to help keep warm, then maybe another space blanket over this? Coupled with lots of clothing and my Arc Alpinist quilt, hopefully I could sleep in the 30s?
at 10 degrees i'm wearing everything i've got -- long johns, vapor barrier shirt, wool socks, nylon pants, down vest, fleece, frogg toggs, hat, gloves... i've never actually bothered to put clothing in the undercover for more insulation... i just put it on me! Greggg3, the undercover does seem to need more stretching -- did you see that the HH site recommends that you double the elastic for the side tie outs so you can get more tension when using the super shelter? it works for me...
oh, but it does seem like the trash bag leave thing could work spectaculary well -- no weight, no mess... maybe don't bother to bring anything but the under and over cover which weighs almost nothing, and lose the foam entirely. anybody have experience with this?
vaporjourney
02-24-2007, 17:53
Lazarus, your idea of ditching the foam entirely echoes my thoughts exactly. Wasn't sure if the overcover was really necessary, but I'd be willing to take it if it would allow ditching that bulky foam (not friendly on a Catalyst pack!). I wonder just how effective the filled trash bags are? Then maybe throw in a 2 oz space blanket (emergency ground cloth) and perhaps the system would stretch quite far?
peter_pan
02-25-2007, 07:46
Vaporjourney, et al,
Not so fast on ditching the foam and adding the top....You will be set up for real vapor/moisture issues... the top is intended for low humidity/ desert use and so stated by HH for a reason... the original model, introed TD 2004, was one piece, toom any issues and was then split....
Also you really do need reliable, dry under insulation.... a bag of leaves may work on a weekend hike....it is not a good plan for a thru.
Pan
sure, i know that the over cover was intended for low humidity/desert use, but if you only fasten one side through the hammock side tie down on the windy side in rain or snow, and pull the other side out to the fly side tie down (sometimes i just run the fly tiedown string back up to pick up the side of the over cover) so that there is a good six inch or so ventilation slot on one side it works for me and still provides vastly superior wind protection and warmth to the screen... hey, you can just work at getting the overcover to fit poorly at both sides-- not hard to do -- to increase ventilation. but peter pan, i agree with the concern over wet leaves and don't know how to get around that one...
BillyBob58
02-26-2007, 20:06
oh, but it does seem like the trash bag leave thing could work spectaculary well -- no weight, no mess... maybe don't bother to bring anything but the under and over cover which weighs almost nothing, and lose the foam entirely. anybody have experience with this?
No experience with the leave thing, only a 2oz spaceblanket in a trashbag big enough to cover underneath my thighs to my feet. For some reason, I was having trouble with the backs of my calves being cold. This certainly ended that problem, as I had about an extra 3 or 4" under me with the spaceblanket keeping the air somewhat dead. The great thing about it was that it is so light relative to it's size, that it didn't pull the undercover down at all, it stayed put up aginst the underpad and thus against my calves. However, I have not used it by itself, only to boost the HH underpad. I'm fairly sure dry leaves would work about as well, but wet leaves would be heavy and a probable problem, it seems to me.
I not only strengthend the elastics as recommended by Hennessy, but I double them back up and over and out through the undercover exit holes exiting there a second time. This seems to #1: keep the underpad from sfifting toward the right side of the hammock, and keeping it on the diagonal, and 2: seems to decrease the tendency of the undercover to gap away from the underpad when I add extra insulation ( clothes, or whatever).
BillyBob58
02-26-2007, 20:07
duh, I also meant "leaf"!
BillyBob58
03-01-2007, 22:36
sure, i know that the over cover was intended for low humidity/desert use, but if you only fasten one side through the hammock side tie down on the windy side in rain or snow, and pull the other side out to the fly side tie down (sometimes i just run the fly tiedown string back up to pick up the side of the over cover) so that there is a good six inch or so ventilation slot on one side it works for me and still provides vastly superior wind protection and warmth to the screen... hey, you can just work at getting the overcover to fit poorly at both sides-- not hard to do -- to increase ventilation. but peter pan, i agree with the concern over wet leaves and don't know how to get around that one...
Am I right to think you think pretty highly of the overcover in all cold conditions? This is the only part of the SS I don't have. One addition to the basic system that I found very useful compared to the bulk/weight and money was the torso/kidney pads added to the main pad. So much so that I have cosider getting another set to cover more area or to further increase thickness in the kidney/torso area.
BillyBob58
03-01-2007, 23:03
-
-How would using a torso length ridgerest instead of the sensitive underpad work? Would it be able to keep you nearly as warm as the open cell foam pad, that I know is a little wider and longer??
Do you mean using the torso length RR in the undercover, beneath the underpad or instead of the Upad? If so, I don't think it would work very well at all, it would tend to gap away from your back. It might help out on top of the underpad, as long as it wasn't heavy enough to pull overwhelm the elatics that hold the UPad up. Though I wonder if it would interfere with the UPads ability to drape around your body. But in my experience, it would work great inside the hammock using an SPE and wings to hold it in place. With a full length, that combo gets me to the teens at least.
But since you don't care for the "bulky" OCF underpad, which can be compressed pretty well, I guess you would rally dislike a CCF pad like a RidgeRest. One thing about the Garlington Insulators: they compress down to almost nothing in size. And very little weight or money.
yes, i think the overcover is really helpful -- weighs next to nothing. it's like a windshirt for your hammock.