Do You Break the Rules in GSMNP??? [Archive]

Gray Blazer

02-28-2007, 22:41

Breaking the rules can lead to more rules and more rangers and less access to the park. We used to have this cool place in FL called the Withlacoochee Forest where you could camp wherever you wanted to. Well, to make a long story even longer people took advantage and left huge piles of trash. Now, you are restricted to camping in a few designated spots. Save your rule breaking for extreme civil disobedience, unless, of course, you are a narcissist.

RAT

02-28-2007, 22:46

I chose the hope the shelters full and pitch a tent one, not sure why since I am usually one to say screw the rules ;) that's just the way its always worked out for me when going thru there.

RAT

Gray Blazer

02-28-2007, 22:53

Hey, I'm far from perfect. I just hate seeing a good thing screwed up and then I have to hear about how we are losing our freedoms and all that stuff. I hate shelters. With that being said, I reserved my place at Tri-corner. There were six other people there including Phil Jackson and when I announced I was going to set up my tent everybody stopped what they were doing and looked at me like I was Jeffery Dahlmer or something.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

02-28-2007, 23:03

If you do stealth, be very stealthy (get far enough off the trail not to be seen or heard - and use LNT techniques)

sliderule

02-28-2007, 23:11

If you do stealth, be very stealthy (get far enough off the trail not to be seen or heard - and use LNT techniques)
And if you do camp near the trail, don't set up until just before dark and don't sleep in late. Pitching your tent in the middle of Spence Field at 2pm is risky.

Paul Bunyan

02-28-2007, 23:18

I have a question, what is GSMNP

Bravo

02-28-2007, 23:20

I have a question, what is GSMNP

Great Smokey Mountains National Park

Frolicking Dinosaurs

02-28-2007, 23:21

Duplicate info

Bravo

02-28-2007, 23:21

Great Smoky Mountain National Park

HaHa I beat you to it. I think that deserves a nibble.:)

Frolicking Dinosaurs

02-28-2007, 23:24

:::: nibble, nibble, nibble.... he has toes like niblets :D ::::

sliderule

02-28-2007, 23:31

Great Smokey Mountains National Park
Smoky. /////

RAT

02-28-2007, 23:39

GreatSmokyMountainsNationalPark

RAT

RAT

02-28-2007, 23:40

Got sidetracked for a minute and DANG look at all theese posts !!!!!

Sorry for the ditto,,

RAT

Rain Man

03-01-2007, 09:06

... I am usually one to say screw the rules...

Were it only that impersonal and simplistic.

"The rules" are not what gets screwed. Fellow hikers are the ones getting screwed.

The "rules" is a euphemism more ways than one.

Rain:sunMan

.

Jim Adams

03-01-2007, 09:13

No, never break the rules. I don't like the shelters or the crowds there but why complain...either follow the rules or hike on trails other than the AT. The AT does appear to be the most crowded trail in the park.
geek

The Solemates

03-01-2007, 12:04

hammock engineer

03-01-2007, 12:39

My plan is to roll into the shelter late, or be the last one to stake out my area. If I plan it right all the spots will be taken and I will be forced outside.

Either way things will work out if you give them a chance to.

Gray Blazer

03-01-2007, 15:22

Lone Wolf

03-01-2007, 15:23

How do you handle the rules in GSMNP?

I forgot to add one more choice. I've never been in GSMNP so I'll figure it out when I get there.

there's rules?

MoodyBluer

03-01-2007, 18:46

I reserved my place at Tri-corner. There were six other people there including Phil Jackson

Phil jackson the basketball coach?

MoodyBluer

03-01-2007, 18:47

Gray Blazer

03-01-2007, 18:58

Phil jackson the basketball coach?

sorry for duplicate postWhoops. I sometimes exaggerate. Thanks for reading my post. I guess I'm not on everybody's ignore list. He was a dead ringer for Phil Jackson and it was right after they had won their last championship (Lakers). He did not introduce himself as Phil Jackson. Well, unlike Just Jim, there goes my credibility with the homeless hikers. My son has the pics somewhere. When I find them I'll post them.

Bravo

03-01-2007, 20:12

there's rules?

Well not for you LW.:D Everyone know's that.

I forgot the 5th choice. I'm a Lone Wolf and Shelters Suck! Don't need no stinkin poles, bear bagging, or water treatment. Rules and whining are for pu**ys.:D

Wanderingson

03-02-2007, 01:30

Effective stealth camping implies exactly that.

If anyone ever knows, it is not effective stealth camping, but illegal camping. That my friends is what seperates the two.

Stealthing take a litle bit of comon sense and requires a wee bit of good judgement.

Chef2000

03-02-2007, 06:54

during my Ga to ME hike I tented everynight in GSNP, but at the shelters, I never saw a Ranger or was told I had to take my tent down. Now Shenandoah was much different

RadioFreq

03-02-2007, 13:37

I'm not doing the AT until 2010. Still I guess it would behoove me to know just what specific rule you all are referring to. This poll gives me the impression that if you come to a shelter that is not full you MUST use it. Is that right? As a hammocker I much prefer my comfy sling to that of a shelter floor.

Ronin

03-02-2007, 13:38

Lone Wolf

03-02-2007, 13:40

This poll gives me the impression that if you come to a shelter that is not full you MUST use it. Is that right?

theoretically. i never do. i wouldn't stay in them if they were totally empty. with a hammock you have tons more opportunity.

StarLyte

03-02-2007, 14:54

Well not for you LW.:D Everyone know's that.

I forgot the 5th choice. I'm a Lone Wolf and Shelters Suck! Don't need no stinkin poles, bear bagging, or water treatment. Rules and whining are for pu**ys.:D

Maybe he is referring to no-stealth camping.

Shelters do indeed suck. But when it's pouring down rain, or you're not packing a tent....

Then.....there's the mice and I'm not referring to Dances.

hammock engineer

03-02-2007, 15:51

theoretically. i never do. i wouldn't stay in them if they were totally empty. with a hammock you have tons more opportunity.

Is that a recommendation for hammocks?:eek:

Lone Wolf

03-02-2007, 15:54

Is that a recommendation for hammocks?:eek:

hell yeah. 2 trees is all you need. ground don't need to be flat. endless possibilities if you is one of them hammockers

sliderule

03-02-2007, 16:15

Just checked out the GSMNP website and saw their backcountry camping rules. I, like most hikers I suspect, will more or less be winging it on my thru attempt (i.e. not scheduling to the nth degree). Do thru-hikers seriously make reservations in advance for shelters and "reservation" backcountry campsites?
They can make reservations, but they are not required to do so. A reservation will "guarantee" you a place in the shelter. A thru-hiker without a reservation is required to camp outside the shelter if it is full. So, if you don't desire to stay in a shelter, just get a thru-hiker permit. All other hikers must have a reservation and stay in the shelter.

Ronin

03-02-2007, 23:32

Thanx Sliderule!

hammock engineer

03-03-2007, 13:49

hell yeah. 2 trees is all you need. ground don't need to be flat. endless possibilities if you is one of them hammockers

Cool. Let us know when you are making the move.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

03-03-2007, 22:18

I'm looking forward to making such a move soon now that my leg is stronger
::: insert row of dancing bananas :::

warren doyle

03-05-2007, 12:02

Rules? What rules? I'm just an animal migrating through the Appalachian Mountains never sleeping in one spot more than one night.
As far as I'm concerned, long distance hiking is about freedom and simplicity, not rules and regulations
There are many moose beds near Sidney Tappan Campsite in Maine. They don't need rules either.
As long as you are not permanently abusing the environment, such as leaving trash, breaking bottles, spray-painting rocks, cutting down live trees, digging trenches, etc., camp wherever you want. You have a right to be there as a member of the animal kingdom.
If people spent as much time going after the real polluters in this world, rather than the insignificant, envronmentally conscious long distance hiker, maybe I'll start listening to them.
In over 30,000 miles of long distance hiking, I have paid only $125 in fines with a $300 return on my 'investment'.

Happy trails!

Alligator

03-05-2007, 12:32

Rules? What rules? I'm just an animal migrating through the Appalachian Mountains never sleeping in one spot more than one night.
...
In the course of your Circle Expeditions, do you repeatedly bring groups of people to the same camp sites? Thread specifically, how have your groups traditionally handled overnight accommodations in GSMNP?

It sounds as if you support a dispersed impact model, yet what you practice appears entirely different.

Do you think it is environmentally better to have large numbers of people concentrated at established campsites in GSMNP or do you feel it is better for large numbers of people to camp wherever they wish, dispersed along the AT corridor in the park?

sliderule

03-05-2007, 14:08

Rules? What rules? I'm just an animal migrating through the Appalachian Mountains never sleeping in one spot more than one night.

In the GSMNP, the government has a policy for dealing with non-native animals.

They shoot them.

jambalaya

03-05-2007, 14:39

It sounds as if you support a dispersed impact model, yet what you practice appears entirely different.It seemed to me that (during peak season at least), the AT in GSMNP is too well-used to benefit from "dispersed impact" camping. This is a place where I do follow the rules, staying on the trail and in shelters when possible. There are simply too many people there to accomodate everyone tramping wherever they feel like.

You guys are mostly hammockers and experienced hikers, and I'm absolutely not doubting your ability to stealth properly. I just don't think it's a good message to send to others (who may not be so knowledgable about best dispersed camping practices) that it's okay break rules and put your tent wherever.

Thankfully, there are plenty of places left in the world where bushwhacking and "stealth" camping are still allowed.

P.S. to Warren: if you're going to deny your connection to the rest of the human race, you'd best get off this here internet thingy and move into a cave.:)

hammock engineer

03-05-2007, 15:17

It seemed to me that (during peak season at least), the AT in GSMNP is too well-used to benefit from "dispersed impact" camping. This is a place where I do follow the rules, staying on the trail and in shelters when possible. There are simply too many people there to accomodate everyone tramping wherever they feel like.

You guys are mostly hammockers and experienced hikers, and I'm absolutely not doubting your ability to stealth properly. I just don't think it's a good message to send to others (who may not be so knowledgable about best dispersed camping practices) that it's okay break rules and put your tent wherever.

Thankfully, there are plenty of places left in the world where bushwhacking and "stealth" camping are still allowed.......

Good point on the experience and stealth thing. I will be the first to say that I do not yet have close to the nights out hiking than a lot of people here, but I'm working on it.

I think the biggest LNT thing is a fire. Between the fire itself and all of the wood needed to keep it going, the site definitly looks different when you leave vs when you got there. Past that if you sleep on the ground you should find a spot that involves trampling the fewest amount of plants. Hammockers need to watch so they do not damage the bark of the trees or remove any low plants in the way.

But like was said with so many people out there every year, its hard not to impact the area.

warren doyle

03-05-2007, 21:36

Q: In the course of your Circle Expeditions, do you repeatedly bring groups of people to the same camp sites? Thread specifically, how have your groups traditionally handled overnight accommodations in GSMNP?
A: The expeditions usually stay at Derrick Knob Shelter our first night in the Smokies; Gatlinburg/Newfound Gap our second night; and, Tri-Corner Knob Shelter during our third, and final, night in GSNP.
Some folks day hike from Fontana Dam to Clingman's Dome and camp there the first evening; Gatlinburg/Newfound Gap the second evening; and, day hike out of the GSNP on the third day, camping near the Big Pigeon River.

It sounds as if you support a dispersed impact model, yet what you practice appears entirely different.
I don't know what a 'dispersed impact model' is and I don't really care to know. But you are correct in your analysis that what I practice is on the edges of the normal Bell curve.
Over the years during my travels through the Smokies, I have probably stayed from 3-5 nights in shelter. Other places where I have found agreeable overnight accommodations are:

the women's restroom at Fontana Dam
the roof of the Fontana Dam visitor center
the Shuckstack firetower
the men's restroom at Clingman's Dome
the Clingman's Dome parking lot
Clingman's Dome tower - both above and below the top canopy
the men's restroom at Newfound Gap
below the Newfound Gap parking lot
underneath the open mouth of a Tyrannosaurus Rex in a Gatlinburg mini-golf complex
next to a Shoney's sign about 20' above the main drag in Gatlinburg
behind a sofa in a Gatlinburg hotel lounge
...and several places along the AT where pine needles were my mattress and the wind from the west sung me a lullaby while caressing my face.

Q: Do you think it is environmentally better to have large numbers of people concentrated at established campsites in GSMNP or do you feel it is better for large numbers of people to camp wherever they wish, dispersed along the AT corridor in the park?

A: Neither. However, I do think it would be environmentally better to first permanently close the highway through Newfound Gap and the road to Clingman's Dome. Then, I think that it would be environmentally better to demolish and remove all the GSNP shelters.

__________________

Skidsteer

03-05-2007, 21:42

I think that it would be environmentally better to demolish and remove all the GSNP shelters.

Yeah, who needs shelters when you got ****houses?

Alligator

03-05-2007, 23:55

...
Q: Do you think it is environmentally better to have large numbers of people concentrated at established campsites in GSMNP or do you feel it is better for large numbers of people to camp wherever they wish, dispersed along the AT corridor in the park?

A: Neither. However, I do think it would be environmentally better to first permanently close the highway through Newfound Gap and the road to Clingman's Dome. Then, I think that it would be environmentally better to demolish and remove all the GSNP shelters.

__________________You're pretty adamant about that road, I don't suppose your transportation uses it for your convenience?

If folks aren't camping at established sites, they would be dispersed along the trail. Since you say neither is better, you must rank them the same. I personally think that type of equilibrium is rare myself. There are sites that certainly can resist low visitation rates, where the soil is not too compacted, the vegetation regrows, etc. These would be able to handle dispersed camping. However, at high visitation rates, soil compaction, trampled vegetation, fire rings, and other problems proliferate. Given the high visitation levels of GSMNP, it seems a prudent course that the recreational ecologists have placed limits on overnight camping in the park.

For a migrating animal, you sure do spend a lot of time in the man-made world:p.

the women's restroom at Fontana Dam
the roof of the Fontana Dam visitor center
the Shuckstack firetower
the men's restroom at Clingman's Dome
the Clingman's Dome parking lot
Clingman's Dome tower - both above and below the top canopy
the men's restroom at Newfound Gap
below the Newfound Gap parking lot
underneath the open mouth of a Tyrannosaurus Rex in a Gatlinburg mini-golf complex
next to a Shoney's sign about 20' above the main drag in Gatlinburg
behind a sofa in a Gatlinburg hotel lounge
...

warren doyle

03-06-2007, 10:15

If the Newfound Gap road was closed, it would reduce the use of trails probably from Thunderhead to Tri-Corner Knob Shelter. The road has far greater impact on the environment than long distance hikers do.
I (we) use the road because it is there. I (we) would still walk the AT through the GSNP if the road was closed and the shelters removed, but I'm sure that these two developments would make traversing the AT, in the areas I mentioned above, less attractive to some others.

I am a migrating animal who has the cognitive/emotional ability to live in both the man-made world and the 'natural' world without becoming entrapped/seduced in either.

Alligator

03-06-2007, 11:42

If the Newfound Gap road was closed, it would reduce the use of trails probably from Thunderhead to Tri-Corner Knob Shelter. The road has far greater impact on the environment than long distance hikers do.

So you predicate breaking the overnight rules (camping anywhere) in the park on the fact that there is a road through there? There are numerous road crossings along the AT. Perhaps it is ok to toss candy wrappers on the side of the trail, because a road crosses it elsewhere, and hey it's just a couple of candy wrappers and Little Debbies packaging:-? . This is a sketchy rationalization IMHO.

I (we) use the road because it is there. I (we) would still walk the AT through the GSNP if the road was closed and the shelters removed, but I'm sure that these two developments would make traversing the AT, in the areas I mentioned above, less attractive to some others.

Regarding users of the trail, LDHs are not the only use group, nor would I expect them to be the majority at all in the park, as overnight permits are rationed. Day hikers have a right to access the trails. Removing their access would be elitist. Our parks are in place to serve multiple users. So removing them from the equation honestly is not going to happen. And really, how far do most of them go anyway?

However, on the LDH side, degradation that can be minimized is that from dispersed camping. It is hardly a burden to utilize the established sites. Further, a fit hiker can greatly reduce use of the shelters by dropping off the ridgeline and using the other non-shelter designated campsites. Shelters or no shelters, there will still be a need to concentrate users in established sites. The traffic is too high.

I am a migrating animal who has the cognitive/emotional ability to live in both the man-made world and the 'natural' world without becoming entrapped/seduced in either.That's well and good as the women are generally not too happy about finding sleeping men in their restrooms:eek: .

warren doyle

03-06-2007, 21:11

Q: So you predicate breaking the overnight rules (camping anywhere) in the park on the fact that there is a road through there?
A: No I don't.

There are numerous road crossings along the AT. Perhaps it is ok to toss candy wrappers on the side of the trail, because a road crosses it elsewhere, and hey it's just a couple of candy wrappers and Little Debbies packaging:-? .
I don't litter either.

This is a sketchy rationalization IMHO.

Perhaps your interpretation/comprehension of my post is 'sketchy'.

Alligator

03-06-2007, 21:19

...
Perhaps your interpretation/comprehension of my post is 'sketchy'.
Feel free to set the record straight on which rules you chose not to follow while in GSMNP and your reasons for not following them. Or stonewall. Your choice:cool: .

Gray Blazer

03-06-2007, 21:51

Bloodroot

03-06-2007, 21:58

I'm sure everybody unless they are perfect has broken a rule in GSMNP. Has anybody drunk alchohol in the park? Anybody exceeded the speed limit? Like Jesus said, "He who is without sin may cast the first stone.........Mom, ...Put that down."

I never broke any rules. I might have exceeded the speed limit because the weather was friggin horrible and I was walking through a river the whole way!!:D

sliderule

03-06-2007, 22:01

I might have exceeded the speed limit because the weather was friggin horrible and I was walking through a river the whole way!!:D
What is the speed limit when walking through a river?

Footslogger

03-06-2007, 22:01

I never got caught ...so I didn't break any rules. That's my story and I'm sticking to it !!

'Slogger

Bloodroot

03-06-2007, 22:03

What is the speed limit when walking through a river?

Too fast to enjoy your time there.

Bravo

03-06-2007, 23:23

I never got caught ...so I didn't break any rules. That's my story and I'm sticking to it !!

'Slogger

That's a great story anywhere you go.

Alligator

03-07-2007, 10:44

I'm sure everybody unless they are perfect has broken a rule in GSMNP. Has anybody drunk alchohol in the park? Anybody exceeded the speed limit? Like Jesus said, "He who is without sin may cast the first stone.........Mom, ...Put that down."No, I'm no angel. But then again, I didn't post to this thread and therefore advocate breaking specific rules. It's the message here that is important, not the messenger. As a reminder, the particular rules we are discussing are the overnight camping rules. These rules are in place to help prevent the physical degradation of the trail corridor. They are not in place to keep the hippies under control, to exert The Man's authority, nor to keep anybody down. They are in place to help preserve the park. To flaunt breaking them displays a particular disregard for the very foundation of the AT experience, the trail itself.