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SteveJ
03-29-2007, 21:53
Hi, all. Was at REI tonight, spending the dividend that's been burning a hole in my pocket. There was a young couple in front of me checking out - rang up over $1,000 - the cashier asked them where they were going. They're hiking the AT northbound, starting north of SMNP. They are bringing their dog, and said they were starting north of SNP because they didn't want to worry about the dog. The cashier was surprised, saying that he hiked in SMNP 2 summers ago with his dog, and that he'd gotten a special permit from the rangers at the park entrance to allow him to do so - and was insistent that he had done so with a permit as long as he agreed to keep the dog on leash. I only heard part of the conversation, but was surprised to hear this. Does this make any sense to anyone?

stumpy
03-29-2007, 22:19
I am pretty sure that dogs are not allowed in the park (what so ever). I know that the Happy Hiker in Gatlinburg will pick you dog up and the park entrance, kennel him, and drop him off to you on the other side. Or at least they used to provide this service.

FrOeKk
03-30-2007, 01:00
Everything that I've read and researched online has said that no dogs are allowed in the Smokies. If there is any information to refute this, then I'd love to hear about it. I'd love to check out the Smokies with my pup!

Marta
03-30-2007, 06:03
The rules as stated on the information board at Big Creek Campground are that leashed dogs are allowed in the campgrounds only, not on the trails.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-30-2007, 06:39
Dogs aren't allowed on any trail in the Smokies and are allowed on a leash in the drive in campgrounds only.

SteveJ
03-30-2007, 08:24
OK - that's what I thought....maybe the cashier was talking about going into the campground, but I could have sworn I heard him say that he "hiked"....

Rebel, with a Cause!
03-30-2007, 08:40
As Far as I know, Bill Irwin, is the only person to get a Special Permit to hike the GSMNP with a dog. Bill Irwin, with his Seeing-Eye dog Orient, is the only blind hiker to have completed the 2,168-mile Appalachian Trail. His book, Blind Courage, is a Great book to read, and full of inspiration.

I once spoke to a Ranger about this and the above was his reply.

Anyone know of anyone else?

D'Artagnan
03-30-2007, 11:04
As Far as I know, Bill Irwin, is the only person to get a Special Permit to hike the GSMNP with a dog. Bill Irwin, with his Seeing-Eye dog Orient, is the only blind hiker to have completed the 2,168-mile Appalachian Trail. His book, Blind Courage, is a Great book to read, and full of inspiration.

I once spoke to a Ranger about this and the above was his reply.

Anyone know of anyone else?

I heard there was a cashier at REI in Atlanta that did it. :D (Sorry, just took my smart-alek pill -- it must be kicking in.) Seriously though, I have to agree with your assessment regarding Mr. Irwin.

edizard
03-30-2007, 12:02
You can hike with your dog anywhere as long as they are a certified service or therapy dog. Anyone's dog can get that certification, the dog just has to pass the particular state obedience examination. If your dog can pass it, then your dog can go the whole trail with you.

frieden
03-30-2007, 13:36
You can hike with your dog anywhere as long as they are a certified service or therapy dog. Anyone's dog can get that certification, the dog just has to pass the particular state obedience examination. If your dog can pass it, then your dog can go the whole trail with you.

Federal law (ADA - Americans with Disabilities Act) does NOT require certification, but you and your dog can be asked to leave, if the dog becomes aggressive and is a danger to the people around him. The place of business cannot ask you what your disability is, but they can ask you what the dog does for you. Neither you or the dog are required to have any documentation, and the dog is not required to wear a vest. I did get Ed a vest and ID to make it easier on us (www.activedogs.com (http://www.activedogs.com)), but it has backfired.

Most people get vests for their service dogs, so they are not harassed as much, but now businesses are expecting it. Because it is so common, people have assumed it is law, and it isn't. States aren't helping. I was told that CA has a certification, and it is assumed that it is required. The vest, ID, lead, shipping, etc. can run a few hundred dollars. Training costs are insane.

Not everyone gets disability payments, you know. If you are diagnosed with something like Lupus, you'd better have an attorney and doctor with some serious teeth. My mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer, had just come out of a coma, and it took her years to get disability payments - and she had tons of support. What about people struggling on their own, without government disability status? The system has so many loopholes.

What is hurting us is the people who just want their doggie with them, and are using the broad definition of the law to their advantage. It seems like we have to threaten legal action everywhere we go now. It isn't all the business' fault. So many people are abusing it, they have to try something. I wish those people would care how much their actions hurt people like us.

We have such a hard time, because I don't "look" disabled. I'm not in a wheelchair anymore, and unless I'm having an attack, I look just like everyone else. We were told to leave from this store just off base ("no dogs allowed"), and three Marines turned on the guy, citing federal law. :sun It made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Keep in mind, service dogs are living beings, not machines. Working dogs are supposed to have some level of professionalism, but like everyone else, they have their days. Ed is not a good breed for a service dog (Belgian Malinois). He is high drive, and if he doesn't work for even one day, he's hyper until he wears himself out. He is going back into training, because we are shooting for the S.hitzhund service dog certification, but his high drive isn't going to change. Hospital people love him, because he'll pull the stretcher, and all they have to do is steer.

I know you probably want your dog with you all the time, but please do not abuse the ADA law, just 'cause you can. It really does hurt other people, who need it.

The Weasel
03-30-2007, 14:14
You can hike with your dog anywhere as long as they are a certified service or therapy dog. Anyone's dog can get that certification, the dog just has to pass the particular state obedience examination. If your dog can pass it, then your dog can go the whole trail with you.

Always legal issues.....

"Service dogs" are dogs that facilitate the ability of those with handicaps to function in society. This can include not merely physical disabilities - such as sight and hearing - but emotional disabilities as well. Few states have "examinations" or "certification" programs, and a "service" dog is any dog whose owner can provide reasonable assurance to those who may appropriately ask that the dog is used to ameliorate a handicap. While there are courses that provide "certificates", these are not anything more than evidence - not proof - of the dog's status. Other evidence can be identifying dog vests, or even convincing oral statements from the owner.

This is an area where abuse is possible, much like handicap parking, but where the law is willing to over-balance in favor of the handicapped.

By the way: I'm significantly hard of hearing, and my dog functions as an "alert dog" without certifying training. I have been allowed, on my statements only, to have him present on some restricted trails in this area since he will hear rattlesnakes when I won't; he has twice 'notified' me by his body language of them.

The Weasel

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-30-2007, 15:24
I looked this up just to be sure:http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/pets.htm
Dogs are allowed on 6 ft leash in campgrounds, picnic areas, along roads and on two short walking paths - the Gatlinburg Trail (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/gatlinburg-trail.htm) and the Oconaluftee River Trail (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/ocon-river-trail.htm).

Phreak
03-30-2007, 15:38
Only service dogs are permitted in GSMNP. I spoke with the Ranger Office about it and they require all your certification papers for your "service dog" to be on your person at all times inside the park and will issue a ticket if you don't have them with you. From what I've heard it is a pretty hefty fine.

frieden
03-30-2007, 15:47
Only service dogs are permitted in GSMNP. I spoke with the Ranger Office about it and they require all your certification papers for your "service dog" to be on your person at all times inside the park and will issue a ticket if you don't have them with you. From what I've heard it is a pretty hefty fine.

Thank you! I'll send them a copy of the law right away.

Jester2000
03-30-2007, 17:11
OK - that's what I thought....maybe the cashier was talking about going into the campground, but I could have sworn I heard him say that he "hiked"....

Maybe the cashier was full of poo.

I suggest disguising your dog as a horse.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-30-2007, 17:41
::: Kudos to whoever will make a doggie pack that looks like a saddle :::

rafe
03-30-2007, 20:41
::: Kudos to whoever will make a doggie pack that looks like a saddle :::

IIRC, in '90, there was a thru and his dog named (respectively) Dandelion and Pygmy Pony.

SteveJ
03-30-2007, 23:02
Maybe the cashier was full of poo.

I suggest disguising your dog as a horse.

great post, Jester. You manage to insult the cashier and imply that I said something I didn't in 15 words... get it under 10, and you may soon be running w/ the big dogs here...

I assume I mis-heard what the guy said - unfortunately, I had an 80 db hearing loss in my right ear a few months ago, and don't hear the way I'm accustomed to...

Personally, I don't plan on hiking w/ a dog in the Smokies, nor did I imply that I plan to do so; therefore, no use in disguising her as a horse....

SteveJ
03-30-2007, 23:33
great post, Jester. You manage to insult the cashier and imply that I said something I didn't in 15 words... get it under 10, and you may soon be running w/ the big dogs here...

I assume I mis-heard what the guy said - unfortunately, I had an 80 db hearing loss in my right ear a few months ago, and don't hear the way I'm accustomed to...

Personally, I don't plan on hiking w/ a dog in the Smokies, nor did I imply that I plan to do so; therefore, no use in disguising her as a horse....

you know, I've got to contribut so I can edit... think I left my sense of humor before entering this - in retrospect, I'll assume you meant this tongue in cheek Jester - my apologies......:o

Jester2000
04-02-2007, 18:01
No problem, SteveJ. I don't use emoticons, so sometimes folks, in the heat of posting, misunderstand me.

But I got all the big dogs here on a leash.

Seriously, though. The horse idea has merit.

SteveJ
04-02-2007, 22:49
No problem, SteveJ. I don't use emoticons, so sometimes folks, in the heat of posting, misunderstand me.

But I got all the big dogs here on a leash.

Seriously, though. The horse idea has merit.

well, when she's on her daily ripsnort through the living room/den/kitchen, and I'm working in the basement, it sounds like a horse is running through the house!

She's been on edge the last few days. I'm getting ready to take my son up for a few days on the AT (dehydrating food, getting gear out, etc.) and she knows something's up! our last trip out was to a Boy Scout Camporee - the camp doesn't allow dogs, so she wasn't able to go - she's been waiting by the door to the garage most of the day to make sure she doesn't miss out on this trip!

hootyhoo
05-03-2007, 21:18
I had done this for many years. We would always go where there were no people so i did not feel obligated to leash him. He is always by my side or on the bank really close by and never goes up to anyone or any other dogs. Anyway- a Ranger drove by, saw and came back. he got out to the edge of the road and called us over. He warned me that little river is considered 'backcountry' and that we had to leave. It was wierd. Over the past five years I have noticed a new breed of ranger, and this guy was one of them. They must have ticket quotas now adays or something.

superman
05-04-2007, 06:54
I pretty sure that there was a disabled thru hiker in 2000 that hiked right through the Smokies with his dog without incident.

mweinstone
05-04-2007, 07:11
there are two wild dogs in the smokeys at this time. baltimore jack tarlin and bfitz the dude. that is all.

SunnyWalker
01-04-2008, 21:21
What about my pet elephant? -SunnyWalker :-) (notice use of emoticon)

Rain Man
01-05-2008, 11:01
No problem, SteveJ. I don't use emoticons, so sometimes folks, in the heat of posting, misunderstand me. ...

Let me suggest that perhaps, if you choose not to use emoticons, then it's not that some folks misunderstand you, rather it's that you mislead them. If blame is to be placed, place it on the correct side of the equation.

You'll notice I used no emoticons. If you don't smile when speaking with us, then don't expect us to smile when speaking with you.

Rain Man

.

Rain Man
01-05-2008, 11:05
...They must have ticket quotas nowadays or something.

I guess I should learn never to be amazed at dog owners who rationalize and blame others for their own misconduct.

Rain:sunMan

.

Rain Man
01-05-2008, 11:08
I know you probably want your dog with you all the time, but please do not abuse the ADA law, just 'cause you can. It really does hurt other people, who need it.

Well said. I was really surprised (well, maybe not) that a prior poster suggested that any one can use the law even if not disabled.

Good for you for pointing out that this hurts the truly deserving. It's like the folks who park in prime handicap spots, rather than walking an extra fifty feet.

Rain:sunMan

.

Adam B
01-06-2008, 17:37
Frieden and weasel already piped up and is right. There is no certification, the legal test is basically your dog has to be trained to preform at least three jobs that mitigate your diagnosed disability reliably. These have to be trained tasks cued and commanded not things the dog does naturally. The dog must be under control and discrete at all times, be clean and be healthy. The dog must have no other issues that prevent it from conducting it's job.

There is no requirements for ID or uniform and credible verbal assurances are to be accepted. If you interfere with a working animal you can go to jail, anything that endanger the safety of the handler could be met with criminal charges of assualt or worse. If someone fakes an assistance animal it is not the right of a store owner or the general public to stop them. It is appropriate to have the police attend and if the person is faking they will be charge with fraud and public mischief. The above rules only apply to assistance animals individually trained to assist a disabled person and the right of entry is not to the dog but the disabled person. These rules never apply to therapy animals. Therapy animals have no right of enterance and it is a privilage granted on individual basis by the property owner.

As for cost frieden, I am in ontario but I am on a disability pension myself and understand some of the difficulties. If you need some help with anything let me know. I have some connection with getting the gear needed for a service dog so might be able to help. I have made most of my own gear because of the cost. Just for reference for the others, I have trouble walking and balancing due a to neurological disorder and needed a harness to enable my dog to pull me in a chair/cart or to allow me to use the dog as a cane and be guided as needed. The closest harness that matched my needs was about 600 dollars and still would be off the shelf. Plus boots, clothing, food, and the vet. Training one of these dogs can cost thousands and thousands of dollars. All in all I have spent in around 2000 dollars on gear for Timber. I laugh but he is better dressed then I am.

It is nice to see that even with one person offering poor advice that could send your jail the others dealt with it fairly and honestly. Frieden thanks for sending the rangers a copy of the law most people just need to see it and then life will be easier for all the SD club members.

Jester2000
01-07-2008, 21:47
Let me suggest that perhaps, if you choose not to use emoticons, then it's not that some folks misunderstand you, rather it's that you mislead them. If blame is to be placed, place it on the correct side of the equation.

You'll notice I used no emoticons. If you don't smile when speaking with us, then don't expect us to smile when speaking with you.

Rain Man

.

I'm not "speaking" with anyone.

PS -- cram it.