View Full Version : Purist's Dilemma
Okay, a very simple and very real situation. See attached sketch. A shelter has two approach paths, one leading in from the north, another from the south.
Let's say you're NOBO. Upon arrival, you take the path from point B to the shelter and spend the night. By what route will you depart, the next morning?
Pokey2006
03-31-2007, 06:38
Die-hard purists will disagree, but I say take the route that makes more sense. To me it's just good old fashioned common sense, a no-brainer.
By the way, this all looks so familiar...in fact, I think I did the blue blaze at that shelter, or a shelter just like it. Was it in Pennsylvania, maybe??? That's where I found the piece of blue blaze that now adorns my wall (picked it up off the ground, not off a tree).
Johnny Swank
03-31-2007, 06:42
Take route A, but do 50 jumping jacks and spin around 15 times once you reach the trail again as your punishment for missing that .000000023432 mile of trail!
FWIW, I've seen people hike around blowdowns, just to dive back into them so they won't miss 2.5' of trail. That's too much like a job in my mind.
Blue Jay
03-31-2007, 06:49
Take route A, but do 50 jumping jacks and spin around 15 times once you reach the trail again as your punishment for missing that .000000023432 mile of trail!
FWIW, I've seen people hike around blowdowns, just to dive back into them so they won't miss 2.5' of trail. That's too much like a job in my mind.
Take Route A and 50 jumping jacks is no where near enough punishment for a purist. You have to damn yourself to hell and then start over again at Springer. When ever you leave the trail for any reason at all, you have to leave a marker and go back to that exact spot. If someone moves your marker even an inch, your thru is over and you must start again.:banana
Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-31-2007, 06:51
TT, take this diagram to a shrink and see if he / she can help you untangle this dilemma.
By the way, this all looks so familiar...in fact, I think I did the blue blaze at that shelter, or a shelter just like it. Was it in Pennsylvania, maybe???
Kirkridge Shelter in PA, just south of DWG, has exactly this arrangement. But there are many others with dual approach paths.. or approach paths that "fork."
TT, take this diagram to a shrink and see if he / she can help you untangle this dilemma.
It's only a dilemma for purists, FD. :D
looks like low gap just out of Neel's. People worry about this stuff???
Blue Jay
03-31-2007, 06:54
This thread is very very important. Even if the shelter has one path into it, you must mark the spot your foot left the AT. If not, in the morning you could cut the corner of the path out and accidentally miss whole INCHES of the trail, then you must start again. Countless thruhikes have ended this way.:welcome to the insame religion of Purism.
Rebel, with a Cause!
03-31-2007, 07:34
Icewater Springs Shelter in the GSMNP has this same situation. You go to the shelter off the main trail and in the morning leave by way of the spring just downhill that meets the AT. In 2005 while hiking with my son Captain Chaos, I was talking to 2 purists about this situation. When I mentioned the situation at Icewater, it appeared that they had missed over 50 feet of the trail. The look on their faces was PRICELESS :) BTW, we were almost to Walnut MT shelter near Hot Springs during this conversation.
In 2002, I was hiking and found myself several feet lower than my group that was above me on another trail. It seems I had taken a small detour around some rocks and came back up the trail and finally met them. The first thing one of them said was: You missed part of the trail !!! I replied, No I didnt, you did. They actually went back to check it out to see which path was correct. Unfortunately it was I that was on the wrong one. I didnt go back :)
Cya on the Trail, Right one or wrong one, I like them all
So how many people would be offended if I blue-blazed to Katahdin and called it a thru-hike? Now that would be an interesting goal, hike from Georgia to Maine using as little of the AT as possible, just using it to reconnect blue-blazes......hmmmm it wouldn't be a thru hike, perhaps an 'around' hike? or maybe instead of a flip flop, we could call it a flopped flip??
Driving on interstate highways usually requires exiting on exit ramps and re-entry on an entry ramp. No matter how many pitstops I need to take I never consider I have missed some of the road along the way....
Programbo
03-31-2007, 09:15
OMG..I was going to post a similar map and a similar question just 2-3 days ago in response to someone elses thread and decided against it because I didn`t want to get flamed...They had said it was an "official" thru if you passed every white blaze or something...But I was going to counter by saying there are places where the trail blazers and official AT signs actually give you an option to go one route or another..One I know of is a shelter situation like yours where two trails go in and out and once at the shelter signs direct you back to the trail with arrows saying "AT North ->" etc...I have a photo in my hand now which I will gladly scan and post which says "AT South via High Rock view (And then has an arrow pointing ahead to a blue blaze trail). AT South No View (And has an arrow pointing to the side to the regular AT)"...In this situation the trail continues south along either route "officially" even though one is a blue blazed trial....I guess what I`m saying is I wouldn`t worry about it and the "purist's"..Just go the route which makes the most sense in these rare situations as even the trail makers allowed for either route in or out...The trail changes year to year anyway..Heck it`s 150 miles longer now than it was 20 years ago.
This is all too funny. One of the reasons I'm out in the woods is get away from inane stuff just like this. Peace. J.J.B.
... I was going to counter by saying there are places where the trail blazers and official AT signs actually give you an option to go one route or another..
Yeah, I've seen at least one or two places where there was an official (or semi-official) "high water" route.
It seems on almost all my section hikes I manage to lose the trail once or twice, and sometimes without even knowing it.
Hiking northbound, below Falls Village CT, the map showed the trail leaving the road and following the Hoosatonic (again) for a while... but in spite of my sincere and concerted effort, I managed to miss that junction. So I ended up walking maybe 3/4 mile -- along what was clearly the old AT -- to Falls Village proper, and then down the hill to where I re-found the "real" AT.
An hour or so before that incident, I had the experience of doing a "purist" march 3/4 of the way around the perimeter of some damned cornfield, leaving me standing about 100 feet from where I started. Stooopid.
I've often wondered how one could complete a pure, 2000-mile hike of the A.T. over many years. While it's possible to stick to the white blazes maybe 97% of the time or more, by the time one reports the completed hike to ATC, some of the A.T. hiked is apt to no longer be the official route, even though it may have been the official route at the time it was hiked.
Even in the course of a continuous hike from one terminus to the other, the official route can change by the time the opposite terminus is reached. I'm sure it must have been true in 1980, that by the time I reached Katahdin, some of the route I walked was no longer the official route. The A.T. was being moved all over the place then!
What's your take on this Terrapin as someone who is hoping to complete the A.T. over many years?
Rain Man
03-31-2007, 09:55
Icewater Springs Shelter?!!! Heck, that thing's only a few feet off the AT.
You wanna real dilemma, how 'bout Siler Bald Shelter??? The one below Wesser, NC, not the one (Silers Bald Shelter) in the GSMNP.
Siler Bald Shelter is about HALF A MILE off the AT. (That's a MILE if you count both the south and north shelter approach trails.)
To answer the question, I took the shelter trail in from the south and the other one out to the north, yet I still don't consider myself a blue-blazer. For whatever that's worth.
Rain:sunMan
.
What's you take on this Terrapin as someone who is hoping to complete the A.T. over many years?
I'm not a purist but I do keep tabs and have made a rough estimate of my total blue-blaze transgressions. So far, they add up to less than 5% of the total.
In '90 there was a portion of the trail south of Erwin that was inaccessible, and there was some nastiness near Laurel Falls that was causing people to skip around that section. Pond Mountain was added to the trail in '89 or '90 (if I got my history right) and skipping that climb was my very first blue-blaze transgression. (Thanks, LW. :D)
I have 587 miles of AT left to walk (hopefully in August/September of this year) and plan to be reasonably purist about it.
With regard to the dilemma posed at the start of the thread, It's a no-brainer. If I'm nobo, I'm not going to take the sobo return path!
I think it was Pecks Corner, maybe? The approach trail was the better part of a mile. (The day after Icewater Springs, as I recall.)
Okay, a very simple and very real situation. See attached sketch. A shelter has two approach paths, one leading in from the north, another from the south.
Let's say you're NOBO. Upon arrival, you take the path from point B to the shelter and spend the night. By what route will you depart, the next morning?
I would depart by path A. I would do the same if the destination was a scenic overlook or waterfall, rather than a shelter. These paths were build by the maintaining clubs for hikers to use. They lead to amenities or trail features that the clubs want hikers to use or see.
To say they are not part of the trail is absurd in my opinion.
This situation, however, is different from deliberately skipping sections because a hiker wants to catch up with buddies, or because you are running late, or getting bored, or are taking a short cut to town. In such cases one can call oneself anything you want, but you clearly have not followed the rules for a 2,000 miler patch.
Weary
This situation, however, is different from deliberately skipping sections because a hiker wants to catch up with buddies, or because you are running late, or getting bored, or are taking a short cut to town. In such cases one can call oneself anything you want, but you clearly have not followed the rules for a 2,000 miler patch.
OK, how about these two situations:
A) It's been raining cats and dogs for days and the streams are overflowing. Is it OK to walk parallel logging roads?
B) The Creeper Trail out of Damscus, because it's so damned beautiful... and the AT is just another boring and dry ridge-walk.
Wow, I would have guessed there were more purists on here! I would never push purism onto someone else, fwiw... mine can be attributed to O/CD :D
buckowens
03-31-2007, 10:14
I always knew I was a little Type A and OCD, but it dawned on me when looking at the diagram... I thought that I would have to backtrack to the point I left the trail. Crazy, but I guess part of me...
Further thoughts.
I have always advocated that the 2000 miler rules should be changed to make all hiking within the designated AT corridor, or on routes constructed by maintaining clubs to serve the AT hiker eligible for a patch.
For instance taking the seven mile Gulf Hagas loop should comply with the rules, even though it misses a mile or so of white blazes. High water routes, however, should be eligible only during periods of high water.
Finally, one need only hike the trail as it exists. The rule has never been that one has to redo sections that have changed.
BTW the only rules are those set by ATC to be eligible for a patch. If you don't want a patch -- never a priority for me -- you can make up your own rules and do whatever you want and change them to fit whatever you decide to do.
BTW. There is no need to fib. Whether you make every effort to follow the AT rules, or not, hikers tell me that when they write ATC and tell them about their violations, ATC sends them a patch anyway.
Some day I may test these reports and tell ATC in general about my purity transgressions -- including several shortcuts into town, walking the road through Shenandoah to stay at campgrounds, and just generally having a good time while wandering north to Maine.
Weary
The point is to walk every step of the AT.Doing that you will show a respect that only a true thru hiker will have on the trail.Also,why cheat yourself out of a dream many others have and can never complete.pitdog game 97
Jack Tarlin
03-31-2007, 10:24
bfitz has been talking to me, and I have revised much of my thinking on the topic of purism. I'm turning over a new leaf this year. This will be a blue-blazin hike for me. I'd also like to apologize to Bill Bryson, T2 and others I may have criticized or offended in any way in the past...HYOH everyone! Look forward to a kinder and gentler (and hopefully slimmer!) Jack Tarlin this year.
The point is to walk every step of the AT.Doing that you will show a respect that only a true thru hiker will have on the trail.Also,why cheat yourself out of a dream many others have and can never complete.pitdog game 97
So you'd walk south on path B back to the main trail in the morning?
shades of blue
03-31-2007, 10:35
I think you have to do what is important to you. It was important for me to pass every white blaze in my hike. That was the expectations I set for myself. I wouldn't call anyone else's hike "impure", it's their hike, but for me, it was necessary. I agree that it's almost OCD to go back and hike "A" or whatever it was called, and there's nothing wrong with hiking "B", but I don't think people should be ridiculed either way. Maybe you're more enlightened if you hike the corridor, but everyone is at a different place in their search for enlightenment. Something to think about.
OK, how about these two situations:
A) It's been raining cats and dogs for days and the streams are overflowing. Is it OK to walk parallel logging roads?
B) The Creeper Trail out of Damscus, because it's so damned beautiful... and the AT is just another boring and dry ridge-walk.
It's always okay to avoid dangerous streams. The Creeper Trail dilemma is covered under my "further thoughts" post of a moment ago. I took the Creeper not because it was beautiful, but because I'd had an extra beer or two the night before and was impressed with the lack of hills and smooth footpath.
Weary
It's always okay to avoid dangerous streams. The Creeper Trail dilemma is covered under my "further thoughts" post of a moment ago. I took the Creeper not because it was beautiful, but because I'd had an extra beer or two the night before and was impressed with the lack of hills and smooth footpath.
I took the Creeper 'cuz it was LW's idea. But it was beautiful and I've never regretted an instant of it. Walking along lake shores, streams, and rivers is as good as it gets. I'm aware that I missed a few hundred feet of ascent and descent for that transgression. My conscience is clear on that one. Far less so for having blown off Pond Mtn. :o
PS: We took the logging roads that day not because we thought the streams were dangerous, but because we knew they'd be a major PITA to cross... Also, I hadn't had a shower in about a week (last one in Damascus, maybe?) and yeah, I was pretty intent on getting myself de-grunged.
Kerosene
03-31-2007, 10:57
As someone who will be taking 40 years to finish the AT (with no section hike longer than 150 miles), I long ago recognized that I wouldn't be able to re-hike trail re-locations. Some of the re-locations sound really nice, while others re-route around lovely places that are now accessible only by side trails, if at all. Some are shorter, many are slightly longer. Some look harder, many sound easier. I'm a little obsessed in that I always "touch the blaze" where I ended last time; even to the point where I connected a few small gaps that cropped up between hikes taken many years apart (viz, the road through Duncannon and the I-80 bridge across the Delaware). I typically view the shelter side trails as part of the official path, but even so I've been known to backtrack.
Take route A, but do 50 jumping jacks and spin around 15 times once you reach the trail again as your punishment for missing that .000000023432 mile of trail.
For the sake of argument, let's assume the distance is a bit larger. Let's say, one or two tenths of a mile.
OTOH, it would be interesting to see if reponses vary according to the distance between points A and B. Are there folks who would be pure up to some distance, but then go "practical" (ie. impure) for larger distances?
Lumberjack
03-31-2007, 11:07
for the truely anal purists.... enter the site using b and leave the site using a.
Programbo
03-31-2007, 11:58
Even in the course of a continuous hike from one terminus to the other, the official route can change by the time the opposite terminus is reached. I'm sure it must have been true in 1980, that by the time I reached Katahdin, some of the route I walked was no longer the official route. The A.T. was being moved all over the place then!
That`s all very true..Back in the 70`s the "mid-point" of the AT was Duncannon, PA..Now the "mid-point" is down near Pine Grove, PA....I can think of 5 places just in the 40 miles of the trail in Maryland which have been re-routed
People who refer to the hiking preferences of others as anal need remedial training in HYOH. They remind me of those who chastise others for running up the trail, but that's another issue best addressed in another thread.
Lumberjack
03-31-2007, 13:33
People who refer to the hiking preferences of others as anal need remedial training in HYOH. They remind me of those who chastise others for running up the trail, but that's another issue best addressed in another thread.
Anyone who deliberately hikes past the campsite to b and exits by path a forcing themselves to re hike a mile of trial simply to be sure they did not miss a single inch of the AT is ???
Im sorry I did not mean to offend The WB PC patrol but Anal was the only term that seemed to fit. Please feel free to insert a more appropo term in place of the original.
Dances with Mice
03-31-2007, 14:28
On my little walk a couple weeks ago I was leaving the Hawk Mtn shelter at the same time as another hiker. The blue blazed trail to the shelter has a little fork right at the Trail. I took the left (north) path back to the Trail, the other guy took the south fork. I warned him he was headed southbound because I know it's sometimes difficult to remember if you took a left or a right into a shelter the night before.
He replied that he was a purist at that point in his hike and wanted to start where he'd left off. It can't be 12 feet between the two paths, I could see and keep talking with him the entire time. But he began that morning's hike at the exact point where he'd entered the shelter and walked the three or four steps on the AT over to where I was standing.
Whatever. I suppose it's just one less thing for him to worry about. From his Trailjournal I see he's still on the Trail.
TJ aka Teej
03-31-2007, 14:29
Purism is a dilemma unto itself.
Answer to post #1:
Like a dog circling his tail before he lays down, you hike past the first shelter blueblaze continuing along the AT to the second junction and hike into the shelter. Next morning hike out the missed blueblaze back to the AT, and rehike the section you did the day before. Count that rehiked bit as part of your total AT miles, and count the blueblazed bit towards your record of total blueblazed mileage.
Or tent. It's really up to you :D
This "purist" hiker, the one who supposedly has to touch every whiteblaze, no matter the circumstances, and who is supposedly looking down his nose at all others not up to his standards; the one who is in his heart of hearts condemning the vast majority of those who aspire to thru-hike for taking certain ethical "shortcuts." I think this "purist" is almost entirely a straw man. I think very few of them exist in real life, but some find it a curious comfort to pretend they are out there in great numbers.
max patch
03-31-2007, 16:05
There is no dilemma.
Those that have a live long dream to hike the trail will do just that.
Those that take blue blaze shortcuts, yellow or aqua blaze ahead for whatever reason haven't hiked all of the trail. That is thier problem to deal with; not the 2,000 miler.
Anyone who deliberately hikes past the campsite to b and exits by path a forcing themselves to re hike a mile of trial simply to be sure they did not miss a single inch of the AT is ???
Extremely devoted to hiking their own hike. Why should anyone want to hike a hike other than the one he or she has chosen or should anyone expect someone to hike any other hike than his or her own?
Im sorry I did not mean to offend The WB PC patrol but Anal was the only term that seemed to fit. Please feel free to insert a more appropo term in place of the original.
I prefer the adjective extreme.;) Such A.T. hikes are an ideal in some ways not unlike a life without sin: difficult if not impossible in practice to achieve, but for some worth attempting.
Just to be clear... I didn't launch this thread to trash purists, but more to see how many were pure enough to retrace their steps in the AM in the map that I sketched. Maybe I should have set it up as a simple poll, ie.: When leaving in the morning, would you take A) Path A, or B) Path B.
Another point that maybe needs mentioning: in this situation, you won't even know there's a choice to be made until you leave the shelter in the AM.
I didn't think you had Terrapin and I didn't want to see it go in that direction either.
It is and can continue to be a useful thread.
Lone Wolf
03-31-2007, 18:07
purists are type A whackjobs. they live a life of OCD.
Previous post, not unexpected! Is it that you can't resist Wolf, or you choose not to?
Those who want to argue, argue amongst yourselves. I thought I might start a special thread entitled Arguing simply for the fun of it ..., but I have better fish to fry.:rolleyes: ;)
Fannypack
03-31-2007, 18:30
when my father & I hiked the AT in 96, I was a purist...
I had only done 1 overnite up until that time so I didn't know anything about the AT or hiking except for what I read in Wingfoot's guide & on his website..
since then i have hiked the PCT and now don't consider myself to be a purist but each to their own way of thinking....
Btw, someone used the phrase "blue blaze shortcuts" in another post... I don't want to start an argument but not all blue blaze trails are shortcuts...
Out west, since blue & white blazes are not used, the term alternate route is used quite often. For example, when descending to the Columbia River on the PCT, an alternate route (maybe shorter than the PCT official route) is the Eagle Creek Trail and I know a great number of hikers look forward to doing this alt. route.
Another alternate route to the official PCT route is taking the route up around Crater Lake rather than staying on the low route which the horses must take. I don't want to start an argument about what is the official PCT route but the "purist attitude" doesn't seem to be as prevalent on the trails out west. The purist attitude or dilemma seems to be an AT thing. If anyone agrees or disagrees, pls let me know what u think of the above statements.
Shake_N_Bake
03-31-2007, 18:31
After reading the entire thread all I can say is how lucky I feel that this type of philosophical dilemma has not spread any further west.
icemanat95
03-31-2007, 18:31
Okay, a very simple and very real situation. See attached sketch. A shelter has two approach paths, one leading in from the north, another from the south.
Let's say you're NOBO. Upon arrival, you take the path from point B to the shelter and spend the night. By what route will you depart, the next morning?
A die-hard uber purist will go out the path he or she came in. I tried very hard to be uber pure in the southern part of my trip until it got to be too much like ticking off boxes and process oriented. I started feeling like I was being uber-pure, just to be uber-pure. It was all form, no substance. I slowly relaxed and began enjoying the trip more while I worried less about missing a blaze.
Nightwalker
03-31-2007, 19:39
bfitz has been talking to me, and I have revised much of my thinking on the topic of purism. I'm turning over a new leaf this year. This will be a blue-blazin hike for me. I'd also like to apologize to Bill Bryson, T2 and others I may have criticized or offended in any way in the past...HYOH everyone! Look forward to a kinder and gentler (and hopefully slimmer!) Jack Tarlin this year.
Good for you, Jack. I hope to see you out and about on our hikes this year.
Frank
I have always advocated that the 2000 miler rules should be changed to make all hiking within the designated AT corridor, or on routes constructed by maintaining clubs to serve the AT hiker eligible for a patch.
Thankfully, that's the way it is on Western trails. A corridor.
After X amout of miles on X trails, you start to think differently about the purist "debate".
YMMV (literally, esp if you do the CDT . :D)
when my father & I hiked the AT in 96, I was a purist...
I had only done 1 overnite up until that time so I didn't know anything about the AT or hiking except for what I read in Wingfoot's guide & on his website..
since then i have hiked the PCT and now don't consider myself to be a purist but each to their own way of thinking....
Btw, someone used the phrase "blue blaze shortcuts" in another post... I don't want to start an argument but not all blue blaze trails are shortcuts...
Out west, since blue & white blazes are not used, the term alternate route is used quite often. For example, when descending to the Columbia River on the PCT, an alternate route (maybe shorter than the PCT official route) is the Eagle Creek Trail and I know a great number of hikers look forward to doing this alt. route.
Another alternate route to the official PCT route is taking the route up around Crater Lake rather than staying on the low route which the horses must take. I don't want to start an argument about what is the official PCT route but the "purist attitude" doesn't seem to be as prevalent on the trails out west. The purist attitude or dilemma seems to be an AT thing. If anyone agrees or disagrees, pls let me know what u think of the above statements.
Most blue blazed trails on the AT involve longer walks, not shorter walks. Most lead to scenic overlooks, waterfalls, and historic sites. Some are out and back. Some are loop trails, out, around and then back to the AT.
All were created by volunteers, and designed to show newcomers things the volunteers thought to be special.
Only a relative few are designed to make the trail shorter or easier. I tended to take the least traveled ways. I was seeking what was best in the Appalachians, not what was shortest.
Weary
Brrrb Oregon
03-31-2007, 23:31
After reading the entire thread all I can say is how lucky I feel that this type of philosophical dilemma has not spread any further west.
And they all said, "AMEN!"
I would take the side trail back to where I left the main trail. Trail B. It is really not that much distance but I would want to get back on the trail where I left it if possible.
I am not worrying about miles or time blah blah blah... not really a purist but if you take a side trail to a shelter why not just take it back to where you left off? What is the big deal here?!!
:confused:
OK, how about these two situations:
A) It's been raining cats and dogs for days and the streams are overflowing. Is it OK to walk parallel logging roads?
I would take the stream because I like to "live on the edge" :D and I have a lot of experience doing that kind of thing. Something about rushing water just draws me in. I would not berate others for taking the "high road". It's all cool.
B) The Creeper Trail out of Damscus, because it's so damned beautiful... and the AT is just another boring and dry ridge-walk.
I will do the Creeper too. During or after my hike as time permits. Probably during and probably the rent a bike downhill tour plan. :D
I always knew I was a little Type A and OCD, but it dawned on me when looking at the diagram... I thought that I would have to backtrack to the point I left the trail. Crazy, but I guess part of me...
Actually, the correct way to remedy this type of betrayal of the AT is to count the number of steps taken on the blue blazed trail.
The next morning, you should hike backwards without looking over you shoulder in the direction from which you had departed the AT the prior day while again counting your steps.
If the number steps is exactly equal, you may ligitimately proceed on your AT hike. If the number of steps is different you should again hike down the blue blazed and repeat until the number of steps IS EXACTLY EQUAL.
I thought you all knew this.
TJ aka Teej
04-01-2007, 07:38
All were created by volunteers, and designed to show newcomers things the volunteers thought to be special.
I didn't explore Gulf Hagas, Potaywadjo Ridge, Rainbow Mountain, or any number of other side trails until my fourth or fifth time through Maine. I always tried as best I could to stay on the official path, although with 100+ miles of relos and major logging going on in the 80s it wasn't always easy.
Now, I seek out the faded blazes, and always figure the side trails into my plans.
Just Jeff
04-01-2007, 08:06
I would hike out by whichever way looked best after I packed up that morning. I have enough structure in my life...I'm out there to enjoy the outdoors and I don't need a damn rulebook to show me how! But that's b/c I'm looking to get away from structure and rules when I hike.
If someone has dreamed of touching every blaze they pass, why should I care? They're out there enjoying nature instead of sitting on their butts poking at a keyboard. As long as they don't berate others who don't live up to their "standards," it's all good. But I'm pretty good at ignoring idiots when I want to so I doubt it would really affect my hike much.
I with weary on the corridor thing - no matter which trail you follow, you're still hiking from GA to ME or sobo. That's an accomplishment...and picking your own route shows more of the rugged individualism, and less of the herd mentality, that I've always equated with the outdoors. JMHO (just my hiking options).
Lumberjack
04-01-2007, 09:18
Frankly its not the methods of the purists that bother me. Its the My hike is better then yours attitude they tend to have. They (and other groups) act like the trail is a competition of sorts. I seriously question the "purity" of any hiker that makes purity the most important aspect of the hike. Over-obsessing about anything on the trail can easily degrade the quality of the hike.
Frankly its not the methods of the purists that bother me. Its the My hike is better then yours attitude they tend to have. They (and other groups) act like the trail is a competition of sorts. I seriously question the "purity" of any hiker that makes purity the most important aspect of the hike. Over-obsessing about anything on the trail can easily degrade the quality of the hike.
I noticed very few purists on the trail in 1993 and those that I identified didn't take a "holier than thou" attitude. They just quietly went about doing their thing. They didn't inconvience anyone but themselves -- well, except for one hostel owner who had to drive six miles out of his way so that one "pure" hiker wouldn't miss a mile of the trail.
The hiker announced she was quitting when I met her again at Harper's Ferry, but she apparently changed her mind, since I met her a third time at a shelter near Nahmakanta Lake in October.
Weary
Rain Man
04-01-2007, 09:57
Frankly its not the methods of the purists that bother me. Its the My hike is better then yours attitude they tend to have.....
Right you are. (Same applies to so-called "ultra-lighters" who think their hike is better than another's. Etc.)
On the other hand, the "counter" culture does itself no good by using the word "rules" and then lamenting that they are against hiking rules. NOBODY to my knowledge has EVER suggested hiking purist rules, so it's disingenuous to set up that straw man to knock down.
Purists don't have "better hikes." Neither are there ANY rules about purist hiking, so the rants against such a "rule" is no better.
Rain:sunMan
.
Most peole could care less if a coin has a Denver Mint Mark or not. But some people derive a personal pleasure in collecting every coin in a particular set.
To each his own.
I do wonder if the irrational behavior of coin collectors cause similar angst in others as the choces of some so-called purists do.
Just wondering.
bfitz has been talking to me, and I have revised much of my thinking on the topic of purism. I'm turning over a new leaf this year. This will be a blue-blazin hike for me. I'd also like to apologize to Bill Bryson, T2 and others I may have criticized or offended in any way in the past...HYOH everyone! Look forward to a kinder and gentler (and hopefully slimmer!) Jack Tarlin this year.
I think someone else wrote this post.. It can't be you Jack?:rolleyes:
Just Jeff
04-01-2007, 11:18
April fools...
All as I can say is if you walk from Springer to Katahdin without doing any yellow blazing, or skipping any knowable parts, what does it matter. If you let stuff like following every single white blaze bother you, I think you got something wrong with the whole meaning of doing a thru-hike.
During the coarse of walking to Maine you will surely walk quite a few more steps / miles than the requirements.
Some folks may get disturbed in that? What about keeping tract of the extra you walk doing a thru. I bet someone must have kept tract and claim a record. I probably walked at least a 100 miles more getting water, walking the wrong way and walking to towns.;)
Hana_Hanger
04-01-2007, 14:28
To me a purist is a hiker who never leaves the trail to use a shelter or stays at a hostel let alone a motel/hotel. Never eats in restaurants, or fast food places and only picks up their resupply boxes and keeps on hiking!
So the word purist as a hiker could be another debate LOL
Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-01-2007, 14:40
I've heard Gatorgump (hereafter known as Gator-rump) is applying his backside to all white blazes.
Lone Wolf
04-01-2007, 15:02
he oughta change his name to s**tstain
A True and Devout Purist would NEVER leave the Most-Holy Trail (may her White Blazes be Blessed) for ANY reason under ANY circumstances. The AT Gods have commanded that one must enter Holy Ground ONLY at Springer or Katahdin after offering up the Proper Sacrifices and one must REMAIN on Holy White-Blazed Ground at ALL times. One must walk, eat, resupply, camp, sleep, urinate, defecate and (if fortune smiles upon one) copulate ONLY on the Most-Holy-White-Blaze-Path. Those Heretics who stray from the Path of White Righteousness onto the Blasphemous Blue Blazes shall be branded with a Sapphire Letter and damned to the 9 levels of Hiker Hell reserved for Blazers of Another Color, Slackpacking Infidels and Bryson Readers! I thought everybody knew this...
To me a purist is a hiker who never leaves the trail to use a shelter or stays at a hostel let alone a motel/hotel. Never eats in restaurants, or fast food places and only picks up their resupply boxes and keeps on hiking!
So the word purist as a hiker could be another debate LOL
That may be your definition, but it's a strawman definition, that only those opposed to any kind of "purism" profess.
I suspect it's a way to excuse blatant violations of the ATC 2000-miler patch requirements.
A reasonable reading of ATC requirements does not require touching every white blaze, or even seeing every white blaze. Certainly the "rules" don't require one to backtrack on the trails that lead to and from a shelter, that mostly are only a couple of dozen yards from the whiteblazed trail.
One need only make a genuine effort to walk "every mile" of the trail.
Some choose to go beyond the minimal requirements. That is their choice. And it's a legitimate choice. One should not disparage that choice by saying the extra effort is meaningless unless they go to further impossible extremes.
There are no rules for walking the trail. Get from Georgia to Maine anyway that suits your fancy. The closest thing to a rule are those needed to get the ATC 2000-miler patch, given to those who make a genuine effort to hike the "entire" trail.
If you really want a patch you should follow the ATC suggestions. If not do the trail anyway you wish.
Weary
he oughta change his name to s**tstain
I think "s***-for-brain", a dis-stink possibility.
shades of blue
04-01-2007, 16:52
As a "purist" of sorts, it's interesting to see how the purists are ripped here, but you haven't seen many purists doing the same thing to anyone else on this thread. For me, I set guidelines for my hike, things that were important to me at the time I hiked. It may seem silly, anal, or whatever to someone else, but it was my hike, and I hiked my own hike. I never judged anyone else, I even helped others plan their blue blazing/yellow blazing experiences with my maps. Also, many people have some sort of standard they set for themselves....I won't yellow blaze and skip a state, or I will slack-pack, but won't yellow blaze...or whatever. It is up to that hiker to decide how they want to hike. For me, it was a competition with myself, did I have whatever it took to hike from GA to ME in my own fashion, not bending to peer pressure. That doesn't make me better, or worse, I hiked my own hike.
Some people on this thread has made having a standard for your self sound silly and stupid, I don't believe it is. The problem comes when you apply your standard to someone elses hike.
Programbo
04-01-2007, 19:09
To me a purist is a hiker who never leaves the trail to use a shelter or stays at a hostel let alone a motel/hotel. Never eats in restaurants, or fast food places and only picks up their resupply boxes and keeps on hiking!
So the word purist as a hiker could be another debate LOL
Not so fast Grasshopper! The trail towns, stores and points of interest are in fact part of the AT`s lore and tradition so NOT going off trail and visiting them means you AREN`T a "purist" :D
Programbo
04-01-2007, 19:13
Btw, someone used the phrase "blue blaze shortcuts" in another post... I don't want to start an argument but not all blue blaze trails are shortcuts....
Correct..In the example I gave earlier the "original" AT (The trail had followed that route for 40-50 years) made a 1/4 mile loop past an overlook..The "new" AT bypassed this loop and took a shorter route south and the old AT became a blue blazed side loop trail..So in fact the new white blazed AT is the short cut ;)
I respect the "purist" mentality. There is room for all.
I did not like: "The proper way to do a thru-hike is..."
Maybe I just scratch easy.
Lumberjack
04-01-2007, 22:26
There are two types of purists.
There are those that quietly set personal goals for themselves and follow them. These I have no problem with.
BUT
There are those that insist others follow their code and criticise anyone that doesnt . They gripe about yellow blazers and what not constantly. Most of these are rare on the real trail but they are a terrible burden to any who cross thier path. Cell phones , religeon, gear and technique are all subject to thier scrutiney. This type of purist richly deserves all the scorn and grief directed at them.
And now for some humor?...
Brother spork,
Take up thy staff and thy bag, stride forth before the masses and show thyself worthy of ATC honor. Be ye not tempted by the vile wiles of the blue blazes. Turn ye sights not upon short term thrills but keep thy eyes ever upon the holy mount. Blessed are those that keep to the white blazes for they shall enter 2000 miler status pure of heart.
There are two types of purists.
There are those that quietly set personal goals for themselves and follow them. These I have no problem with.
BUT
There are those that insist others follow their code and criticise anyone that doesnt . They gripe about yellow blazers and what not constantly. Most of these are rare on the real trail but they are a terrible burden to any who cross thier path. Cell phones , religeon, gear and technique are all subject to thier scrutiney. This type of purist richly deserves all the scorn and grief directed at them.....
Maybe. But I've never met such folks as the latter, either on the trail -- or on Whiteblaze, for that matter. Have you? If so give us some citations.
Weary
Brrrb Oregon
04-01-2007, 22:59
If somebody wants to walk down the street and never step on a crack, that's their thing. Nobody cares....until the commentary starts. I guess it is the equivalent of hearing, "Oh, I see you stepped on a crack. Hmmm. Well, I could never do that, but to each his own, I suppose. I'm sure your mother will be fine, and if not, you know, it is just a saying. It wouldn't be your fault or anything." There is no explicit criticism, of course :rolleyes: , but it makes you want to break their back! :D
Nevertheless, as Eleanor Roosevelt said, nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. As has been pointed out, if you walk all that distance, you have been on some kind of a walk, all right. If we're going to get all wound up about who does and does not have the authority to give external validation to some certain accomplishment we or someone else has managed or not managed, well, that our steep trail to hike. Anyone who doesn't care to join us can't be blamed.
If someone else wants to define their own terms for validation, whether the terms are external or internal, let them. Life is too short to hike that hike. It is quite enough that we have to endure the navigation of our own invisible and arbitrary flaming hoops, let alone piling those of others on top.
IOW, the packs will all be lighter if each is allowed to carry his or her own vanities, don't y'all think?
There certainly is tension between hikers on the trail over the "purist" thing. It's not just an academic discussion.
eventidecu
04-02-2007, 05:31
I got five words for ya,,,,Hike Your Own Hike,,,,,Opps missed one,,did ya get it?
Figure that one out. Hmmm
well a true purist would go back and get back on where they left!ky but I know many who just hike the trail in front of them.ky
navy111588
04-02-2007, 14:21
sticking to rules to be a purist takes away the joy of hiking in my mind. if its totally pure hiking wouldnt you be bushwacking and not on the man made trail in the first place?
Hana_Hanger
04-02-2007, 14:44
That may be your definition, but it's a strawman definition, that only those opposed to any kind of "purism" profess.
Weary
:D Exactly a strawman's definition and that was why I posted it!
I find this whole debate pretty :banana :banana:banana and entertaining.
As I stated before you might as well debate on what a true purist is...it's one of those things like hammock verses tent...or alcohol stoves, or counting grams.
Your hike is purely personal and should be for enjoyment no matter how you do it!!
Okay, a very simple and very real situation. See attached sketch. A shelter has two approach paths, one leading in from the north, another from the south.
Let's say you're NOBO. Upon arrival, you take the path from point B to the shelter and spend the night. By what route will you depart, the next morning?
If going North, hike past A then put up my Hammock. A true purist would hang across the trail... :D
Jack Tarlin
04-02-2007, 15:30
Well.....off to Springer with Bfitz, leaving tomorrow with the sun if I don't beat him to death for posting under my name! :D
Man, don't EVER turn your back on the computer when you're at Janet's cuz bad things will happen!
Best to one and all.....will check in from Hiawassee assuming we're still above ground.
dixicritter
04-02-2007, 15:37
Well.....off to Springer with Bfitz, leaving tomorrow with the sun if I don't beat him to death for posting under my name! :D
Man, don't EVER turn your back on the computer when you're at Janet's cuz bad things will happen!
Best to one and all.....will check in from Hiawassee assuming we're still above ground.
Y'all have a great hike!
I also seem to recall hearing something about paybacks.... ;) LOL
As I stated before you might as well debate on what a true purist is...it's one of those things like hammock verses tent...or alcohol stoves, or counting grams.
Well, as I stated before... my point wasn't to debate the merits of purism but to see how many folks might be "pure" enough to backtrack in the very simple scenario sketched in the first post. I had heard of folks doing that, and the sketch itself fits at least one shelter that I've stayed at. So it's not a completely hypothetical situation.
....Your hike is purely personal and should be for enjoyment no matter how you do it!!
Of course. But I remain a firm believer that hikers should be as honest as possible in their application for an ATC 2000-miler patch, though I admit the requirements are a bit ambiguous and poorly written
Jester2000
04-02-2007, 20:02
I would take trail "B" to leave the shelter. And then B. Jack would say something like "enjoy your section hike."
since then i have hiked the PCT and now don't consider myself to be a purist but each to their own way of thinking....
. . .I don't want to start an argument about what is the official PCT route but the "purist attitude" doesn't seem to be as prevalent on the trails out west. The purist attitude or dilemma seems to be an AT thing. If anyone agrees or disagrees, pls let me know what u think of the above statements.
I agree completely. I have yet to meet a PCT hiker that would even think that "purity," however you want to define it, was even worth discussing.
Maybe. But I've never met such folks as the latter, either on the trail -- or on Whiteblaze, for that matter. Have you? If so give us some citations.
Weary
I have. I was slacking southbound over Killington while on the Long Trail when some young AT hikers decided to castigate me for not having a pack, as their idea of "purity" involved carrying your pack for your entire AT hike.
I pointed out to them that:
a) I wasn't hiking the AT.
b) No one referred to it as "backpacking the AT;" most called it "hiking the AT" and
c) I didn't really care one way or the other what they thought.
When I was hiking the AT, everyone who took the Creeper Trail out of Damascus was criticized sharply in every register for about the next 50 miles. I know this because I stayed on the AT out of Damascus a couple of days after most people left, and so got to read all of the register entries.
The same thing happened in Vermont after leaving the Inn at Long Trail, where those criticized were those who took the old AT route to get to the Inn.
So I've met some, yeah.
So, has anyone ever been pure enough to walk "heel to toe" the whole way? That way one would have set foot on the "entire" trail. :D The real sillyness here is not poking fun at purist thru-hikers, but trying to understand the motivations and feelings about thru-hiking inside someone else's head. BTW I really dislike the slang word "thru". I think I'll quit using it.:D
I pointed out to them that:
a) I wasn't hiking the AT.
An excellent point! How absurd to accuse someone of improper A.T. hiking when he's minding his own business on The Long Trail?:rolleyes: ;)
Jester2000
04-02-2007, 20:32
BTW I really dislike the slang word "thru".
Most of us use "thru" instead of "through" because if you get rid of the "o," "g," and "h" your pack is lighter. Even if you decide you don't like "thru," I would at least recommend dropping the "g," as they are notoriously heavy. Everything you might use a "g" for (and I'm thinking pounding in tent stakes, or using a bandana over the hole to pre-filter water) can be accomplished with either the "o" or the "h." So it would be a throuh hike, unless you feel you can get by with just one "h." Experienced hikers can, but don't get yourself into trouble over a little bit of weight.
Now of course we're going to get into an argument with those who say that the "g" can do everything the "o" and the "h" can do, and so it would be better to thrug hike, but that sounds so ugly.
UL folks lately have been trug hiking, but they eventually annoy everyone around them by constantly asking to borrow other hikers' "h," and trust me, you don't want to be that kind of hiker.
So basically though, you know -- HYOH, unless you feel you can get by with a HYO attitude.
Jester2000
04-02-2007, 20:36
An excellent point! How absurd to accuse someone of improper A.T. hiking when he's minding his own business on The Long Trail?:rolleyes: ;)
Well, it kind of was. I didn't feel like typing out the whole conversation, but one of them started in with, "dude, if you're going to say you hiked the entire AT, you should. . ."
Don't know why he presumed i was trying to hike an entire anything, other than perhaps the fact that I was stinky enough to be a thru.
....I agree completely. I have yet to meet a PCT hiker that would even think that "purity," however you want to define it, was even worth discussing.
I have. I was slacking southbound over Killington while on the Long Trail when some young AT hikers decided to castigate me for not having a pack, as their idea of "purity" involved carrying your pack for your entire AT hike.
I pointed out to them that:
a) I wasn't hiking the AT.
b) No one referred to it as "backpacking the AT;" most called it "hiking the AT" and
c) I didn't really care one way or the other what they thought.
When I was hiking the AT, everyone who took the Creeper Trail out of Damascus was criticized sharply in every register for about the next 50 miles. I know this because I stayed on the AT out of Damascus a couple of days after most people left, and so got to read all of the register entries.
The same thing happened in Vermont after leaving the Inn at Long Trail, where those criticized were those who took the old AT route to get to the Inn.
So I've met some, yeah.
Well, I should have pointed out that theire are always a few jerks on most trails. As far as I can tell, there is no one PCT trail. Blazes are few and far between and the signs are ambiguous at best.
The AT is different. Probably because a mystique has built up around the
AT since Earl did the whole thing and ATC questioned whether such a thing was even possible.
Quite honestly, I met only two pure hikers in 1993 -- though I started late and others may have gone ahead. One called herself "the shoeless mare" because an early injury or something forced her to walk with just one shoe. A sister-in-lw had died of cancer the year before and Shoeless, a nurse, decided she was going to fulfill her dreams now, not later. I suspect she was pure -- at least in terms of hiking -- since I met her again 60 miles from Katahdin's summit
I forget the name of the other purist. But I knew him because we kept meeting up. Once we caught a ride back to the trail from town. Our driver drove a few hundred yards up a road that doubled as the trail and the purist walked back to the highway in order to avoid missing any blazes. He never talked purity. He just acted same, generating resentment from some ordinary hikers.
Then too Rusty refused to let him stay at the Hollow since he was suspicous that the guy wasn't a "real thru hiker."
There were the Israeli forces, one of whom wondered loudly how I got to the shelter because I was there ahead of them, but had never passed them on the trail. They all eventually decided to "go to New York City to meet American girls" which ended such smirks,
My impression is that by the time hikers got to Damascus there were few purists left. Though a few pure pretenders may have still been around.
Weary
My impression is that by the time hikers got to Damascus there were few purists left. Though a few pure pretenders may have still been around.
Weary
When I read my first book about a thru-hike the author started her hike talking about a pure hike. The she did a blue-blazed trail. Then she got a slack. And then she yellow-blazed to catch up with friends. I thought to myself that I'd never do that. I would see every white blaze.
Now that I've been hanging around WB a bit and learned more about the trail history, trail relocations, etc, I'm not so concerned with each white blaze. In fact, I'm planning on blue-blazing the Mau-Har Trail because the Companion describes it: "Traversing an area rich in waterfalls and good swimming holes, this steep, 3-mile blue-blaze connects with the AT at Maupin Field Shelter. It's shorter, but harder, than the white-blazed route."
Will I call myself a thru-hiker when I reach Katahdin? Don't know. It'll depend on what decisions I make during the remaining 2167 miles of my hike.
I do think there is a point where it's disingenuous to call oneself a thru-hiker when X?X miles of the AT were not hiked along the designated path. I don't know where that point is, but I believe it exists.
And I believe that purists (those who make a concerted effort to follow the designated path and pass by every white blaze) have cause to be annoyed by people diluting the term thru-hiker. Just as a person who stops running after mile 13 of a 26.2 mile course has not earned the title marathoner, a person who only hikes X?X miles of the actual designated AT has not earned the right to call themselves a thru-hiker.
Let the flame-fest begin.
max patch
04-03-2007, 15:04
Just as a person who stops running after mile 13 of a 26.2 mile course has not earned the title marathoner, a person who only hikes X?X miles of the actual designated AT has not earned the right to call themselves a thru-hiker.
Let the flame-fest begin.
Theres honor amongst marathoners.
Remember the Rosie Ruiz Boston fiasco?
Theres honor amongst marathoners.
Remember the Rosie Ruiz Boston fiasco?
Well, she was a New Yorker. What can you expect? JUST KIDDING!!!
Plus, it was the 80s. All about MEEEEE.
Plus, it was the 80s. All about MEEEEE.
You're WRONG!! The 80s wasn't all about YOU. It was all about ME! ;)
When I read my first book about a thru-hike the author started her hike talking about a pure hike. The she did a blue-blazed trail. Then she got a slack. And then she yellow-blazed to catch up with friends. I thought to myself that I'd never do that. I would see every white blaze.
Now that I've been hanging around WB a bit and learned more about the trail history, trail relocations, etc, I'm not so concerned with each white blaze. In fact, I'm planning on blue-blazing the Mau-Har Trail because the Companion describes it: "Traversing an area rich in waterfalls and good swimming holes, this steep, 3-mile blue-blaze connects with the AT at Maupin Field Shelter. It's shorter, but harder, than the white-blazed route."
Will I call myself a thru-hiker when I reach Katahdin? Don't know. It'll depend on what decisions I make during the remaining 2167 miles of my hike.
I do think there is a point where it's disingenuous to call oneself a thru-hiker when X?X miles of the AT were not hiked along the designated path. I don't know where that point is, but I believe it exists.
And I believe that purists (those who make a concerted effort to follow the designated path and pass by every white blaze) have cause to be annoyed by people diluting the term thru-hiker. Just as a person who stops running after mile 13 of a 26.2 mile course has not earned the title marathoner, a person who only hikes X?X miles of the actual designated AT has not earned the right to call themselves a thru-hiker.
Let the flame-fest begin.
I took a lot of blue-blazed loop trails to scenic overlooks and waterfalls, but I skipped the Mau-Har Trail because I had been in the trees and fog for many days and the AT alternative promised some ridgeline views and some photo opportunities.
The result was a moment that remains vivid 14 years later. I rounded a bend in the trail just as the clouds lifted, the sun suddenly shone through the leaves of the trees, and simultaneously Dinah Washington's voice came through my earphone radio, singing, "What a Diff'rence a Day Makes."
I get shivers just thinking about it.
Weary
Brrrb Oregon
04-03-2007, 16:54
Well, I should have pointed out that theire are always a few jerks on most trails. As far as I can tell, there is no one PCT trail. Blazes are few and far between and the signs are ambiguous at best.
That, and there is more of the "anti-pretense" pretense here....that is, more people who think it should take no less than a pair of pliers to get a list of what mountains you've bagged or what trails you've done pulled out of you. It is kind of the same attitude that argues against end-zone celebrations, on the theory that such a thing makes it look a bit too much like you aren't used to being there. Since the most amazing hikers can barely remember all the miles they've done, it doesn't speak well for your level of experience if you do "marquee" hikes for the purpose of having something to say for yourself.
As I said, it is not unpretentious, so much as it is its own kind of pretense. ;)
Since the most amazing hikers can barely remember all the miles they've done...
FWIW, I find my memory of time spent hiking is far better than my memory of ordinary, "real-world" entertainments and pastimes. That memory is more persistent over time, and more detailed. I can't remember what movie I saw two weekends ago, but I can remember an evening at Stover Creek shelter from almost exactly seventeen years ago. Strange.
Footslogger
04-03-2007, 17:24
FWIW, I find my memory of time spent hiking is far better than my memory of ordinary, "real-world" entertainments and pastimes. That memory is more persistent over time, and more detailed. I can't remember what movie I saw two weekends ago, but I can remember an evening at Stover Creek shelter from almost exactly seventeen years ago. Strange.
=============================
Same here. I wonder if that has anything to do with the "significance" and "focus" of the experience rather than short/long term detailed memory. As it relates to this post ...if someone is preoccupied with touching each blaze as opposed to "taking in" the overall experience of the hike it might have a negative effect on their ability to remember the details.
On a separate note ...when my Dad was in his 70's he would say that he couldn't remember what he had for breakfast but he could remember fishing with his father at 6 years of age. We used to tell him to "up" his Ginko Beloba dose and start eating a better breakfast.
'Slogger
Brrrb Oregon
04-03-2007, 20:22
FWIW, I find my memory of time spent hiking is far better than my memory of ordinary, "real-world" entertainments and pastimes. That memory is more persistent over time, and more detailed. I can't remember what movie I saw two weekends ago, but I can remember an evening at Stover Creek shelter from almost exactly seventeen years ago. Strange.
I didn't mean that you lose the memories....I mean that you tend to lose count of them. You count in the beginning of something, and some of us keep on with the counting because we truly enjoy that kind of thing--pretty much anyone who is really wild about baseball seems to be in this group--but after awhile, many of us tend to lose track.
OK, so I'm over 40. Most of what I used to want to keep track of hardly seems worth it, looking back. :D
That, and there is more of the "anti-pretense" pretense here....that is, more people who think it should take no less than a pair of pliers to get a list of what mountains you've bagged or what trails you've done pulled out of you. It is kind of the same attitude that argues against end-zone celebrations, on the theory that such a thing makes it look a bit too much like you aren't used to being there. Since the most amazing hikers can barely remember all the miles they've done, it doesn't speak well for your level of experience if you do "marquee" hikes for the purpose of having something to say for yourself.
As I said, it is not unpretentious, so much as it is its own kind of pretense. ;)
A subtle, but interesting observation.
Lone Wolf
04-03-2007, 20:35
just walk and see stuff for christs sake. ****** a bunch of blazes and patches.
Brrrb Oregon
04-03-2007, 20:41
just walk and see stuff for christs sake. ****** a bunch of blazes and patches.
Yes, that is the MO. You either don't get the patch, or you get it and stuff it in the back of the top drawer of your desk, where you see it about once every six months or two years and it gets eraser bits all over it. It's kind of like using your Oscar statuette as a doorstop.....you are that good and you care EVEN LESS about how good anybody else thinks you are than you used to.
Obviously, this isn't the sort that gets into any debates about who should have an Oscar and who shouldn't. They know too many really great actors whom they admire who never got one, and so they just don't care.
Lone Wolf
04-03-2007, 20:43
actors suck worse than anal hikers.
Brrrb Oregon
04-03-2007, 20:58
actors suck worse than anal hikers.
Needing to be noticed is nothing to envy, at any rate, especially if you only need it in order to do what you want to do for a living. The only thing worse than being famous would be having the desire to be famous in the first place....especially if you got your wish and liked it. You'd be afraid you might lose it!
Yikes! What a life. No, thank you....to both the actors and the anal hikers. I can only hope that it at least it truly pleases them. I do like seeing movies and plays, once in awhile. It would be a shame if nobody were neurotic enough to want to make them.
That is a question. Would there be an AT if there weren't somebody who thought that having a break in it was some big deal? Maybe not....there is much more settled land back East, after all. I don't know. I'm glad we don't have the blaze thing going on back here, but it would be nice to think that everyone has a purpose in this world, whether we like them or not. Maybe we have the anal retentives to thank for having the thru trails at all.....I guess someone who knows more history than I do would have to chime in on that. It is like neurosurgeons: if you need one, you want somebody who is far more particular than maybe you'd like to garden with.
Anyway, most of them don't hurt anybody. The added weight is in their own packs. Let them carry it, if it pleases them to do it.
Fannypack
04-03-2007, 20:59
actors suck worse than anal hikers.
welp, we sure know that LW is back in town (i.e., not on the trail)....
speak your mind son, don't hold back...
Lone Wolf
04-03-2007, 21:00
same ol **** really. i'm goin hikin again this week. unlike most who post on here
Fannypack
04-03-2007, 21:15
speaking of purist, i saw Stumpknocker on Sunday, Apr 1 on his bike on Rt5, east of Richmond, VA, he stayed near Charles City, VA. that nite
He should be near Mineral, VA tonite, doing 40 to 50 miles a day this 1st week of his ride across America..... go here for his route (http://www.adventurecycling.com/routes/transamerica.cfm)
max patch
04-03-2007, 21:27
sticking to rules to be a purist takes away the joy of hiking in my mind.
What rules? Just follow the white blazes. A lot easier than pouring over the guidebook and map and figuring out if the blue blaze alternative is a mileage saver or not. Cuz thats whats blue blazing is all about. Is it shorter? Case closed.
Skidsteer
04-03-2007, 21:31
What rules? Just follow the white blazes. A lot easier than pouring over the guidebook and map and figuring out if the blue blaze alternative is a mileage saver or not. Cuz thats whats blue blazing is all about. Is it shorter? Case closed.
Horse****.
Granted it could be about saving mileage, but many times the blue blaze has something to see that the White blaze doesn't. And seeing things is the reason some people hike.
Case open.
That is a question. Would there be an AT if there weren't somebody who thought that having a break in it was some big deal?
Brrrb, what the blazes are you talking about here? Excuse me, but unless I'm misunderstanding you, this statement reveals a certain ignorance of the early history of the A.T. Walking the damned thing end-to-end was probably something that MacKaye never even considered. And when Shaffer reported his end-to-end hike to the ATC, their response was one of disbelief.
max patch
04-03-2007, 23:12
Granted it could be about saving mileage, but many times the blue blaze has something to see that the White blaze doesn't.
Sure. Sages Ravine and the Maur-Hau Trail come immediately to mind. But thats not the reason why 99.9% of "thru-hikers" take blue blazes. They blue blaze cuz its shorter. And thats the fact, Jack.
Sure. Sages Ravine and the Maur-Hau Trail come immediately to mind. But thats not the reason why 99.9% of "thru-hikers" take blue blazes. They blue blaze cuz its shorter. And thats the fact, Jack.
And so what? If some hiker only walked 1631.25 miles from Springer to Katahdin, would he or she be worthy of 25% less respect than the purist? Is the mile-count the only meaningful measure here? What, exactly is being measured?
Lone Wolf
04-04-2007, 03:34
Sure. Sages Ravine and the Maur-Hau Trail come immediately to mind. But thats not the reason why 99.9% of "thru-hikers" take blue blazes. They blue blaze cuz its shorter. And thats the fact, Jack.
bs. most blue-blazes are prettier and have more water. obviously you don't take blue-blaze trails
max patch
04-04-2007, 07:16
And so what? If some hiker only walked 1631.25 miles from Springer to Katahdin, would he or she be worthy of 25% less respect than the purist? Is the mile-count the only meaningful measure here? What, exactly is being measured?
Nothing is being measured. Just telling you why most potential thru hikers end up blue blazing.
Brrrb Oregon
04-04-2007, 13:03
Brrrb, what the blazes are you talking about here? Excuse me, but unless I'm misunderstanding you, this statement reveals a certain ignorance of the early history of the A.T. Walking the damned thing end-to-end was probably something that MacKaye never even considered. And when Shaffer reported his end-to-end hike to the ATC, their response was one of disbelief.
Well, I think I admitted ignorance of the history up front, but that wasn't what I was getting at. In my experience, certain people with a tidy mind would not have to think they were actually going to walk a trail end-to-end in order to think it a good thing that it exist unbroken, out there somewhere. There is an order about having a single unified trail system, rather than isolated wilderness areas, and order and unity are satisfying to an ordered mind....a mind of the type that some would call anal-retentive.
Nevertheless, I was mostly just grasping at straws in order to imagine what in blazes that kind of outlook on life is good for, in a practical sense. I suppose it is what some people are, and that is reason enough for them. That I may exist to go into their little boxes does not imply that they exist in order to go into mine! ;)
Does that help?
Fact: 80% of those who start, don't finish. Now that said I will continue from there. When I started the trail hiking NOBO the topic of discusion at shelters was often about being a purist. Quite a few folks claimed this status. Yes, I do call it status. As my hike progressed north this discusion was less and less of a topic. In fact most of the so call "purists" were no where to be found. It became apparent that they had left the trail or just yellow blazed ahead.
I have also met several hikers in the real world that have claimed to have hiked the AT only to find out, during conversation, that what they claimed as a thru-hike turned out to only be a section hike.
In a nut shell, the point I'm trying to make is; You and only you know what your hike was comprised of. If you want to be called a purist, so be it. If you want to be called a thru-hiker, so be that too.
It's your own hike, so hike it the way you want and call it what ever you want. Most of us in the other 20% don't care.:)
Nevertheless, I was mostly just grasping at straws in order to imagine what in blazes that kind of outlook on life is good for, in a practical sense. I suppose it is what some people are, and that is reason enough for them. That I may exist to go into their little boxes does not imply that they exist in order to go into mine! ;)
Does that help?
I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing at all, or what any of this has to do with purism. I know a wee bit about MacKaye's life (ie., I've read the biography by Larry Anderson) but I can still only guess at his motives for wanting the Appalachian Trail to exist as one long trail. Was he "anal"? Who knows. He was certainly a visionary, and one senses often that he was either unaware of or unconcerned with "reality" as most folks would define it. He certainly cared greatly for wilderness, and I believe (to him) the AT was a means toward preservation of wilderness, and for exposure of "city folk" to that wilderness. He was quite definitely a "social engineer" and nearly all of his life's work had to do with plans involving people and their living/working/recreational environment.
The idea of hiking the trail end-to-end didn't arrive until much, much later, and probably was the last thing on Benton's mind when he dreamed the thing up in the years or months prior to 1921. The very first recorded thru-hike was Shaffer's in 1949, and most likely, prior to 1975, the number of completed thru-hikes was still in the range of a few hundred, tops. In the Rodale anthology (published in 1975) there's not a lot of talk of purism in the diaries and journals.
Fact: 80% of those who start, don't finish. Now that said I will continue from there. When I started the trail hiking NOBO the topic of discusion at shelters was often about being a purist. Quite a few folks claimed this status. Yes, I do call it status. As my hike progressed north this discusion was less and less of a topic. In fact most of the so call "purists" were no where to be found. It became apparent that they had left the trail or just yellow blazed ahead.
I have also met several hikers in the real world that have claimed to have hiked the AT only to find out, during conversation, that what they claimed as a thru-hike turned out to only be a section hike.
In a nut shell, the point I'm trying to make is; You and only you know what your hike was comprised of. If you want to be called a purist, so be it. If you want to be called a thru-hiker, so be that too.
It's your own hike, so hike it the way you want and call it what ever you want. Most of us in the other 20% don't care.:)
Grampie has the trail pretty well nailed down. And really hikers should do the trail anyway they like. I did. My only suggestions is that honest people should not say and do one thing, and report to ATC that they did a hike that meets their published criteria, when they didn't.
Let me also be honest. I almost applied for a patch, though a casual reading of the criteria, suggested I didn't qualify. A casual reading of the 1993 finishers convinced me that a lot of hikers were in the same boat as I was. After six months and three days of walking I certainly felt like a thru hiker.
Then I chatted with Wingfoot. He didn;t offer advice. But our conversation convinced me it would be dishonest to apply, regardless of what others were doing.
AS I've said several times, thru hikes are neither easy nor precise . But we all know pretty much when we've done the trail as defined by ATC, so those of us who want a 2000-miler patch should comply with the ATC rules if reasonably possible, before applying.
Weary
I called the ATC today to ask about the 2000 mile patch requirements and got the expected gospel about a pure hike and walking past each white blaze. I asked them how they qualified 2000 milers - merely on the hikers' word or do they have the hiker tell him the total count of white blazes? Sounding a little put off, the response was that 2000 milers are purists and they ask a few purist type questions and can readily tell from the responses when a hiker has been less than pure. After pushing a little, the guy admitted that some slackers probably do sneak past their test and get a patch anyway. He immediately went into how it was about to become a moot point and that all the turmoil would be solved with technology shortly. He let me in on their little secret - hikers have to apply for the 2000 mile patch before they get on the trail and must receive and wear the patch on their hike. Growing more excited he says a little RFID-like tag imbedded in the patch reads a special code that was secretly added to new white paint applied to the blazes over the past 3 years. Now very excited, the ATC guy says that there is no "2000" on the patch, but a digital counter that goes all the way to 2174.2 and if you don't pass every white blaze, you will never get there. I said, "you mean to tell me the hiker will never get to Maine (or Georgia if they are SOBO)?" He stammers and says, "you are missing the whole point!" I replied, "OK" (rolled my eyes), "but who is going to test this crazy contraption". He replied, "why Baltimore Jack and his friend Bfitz, of course, and they are out there right now". I had to hang up at this point as I was about to burst into hysterics.
HYOH
warren doyle
04-04-2007, 22:18
After 30,000+ miles, I'm still following, and will continue to follow, the sacred white blazes on the holy pilgrimage route. The man in the mirror has loved it this way since 1972.
Cookerhiker
04-04-2007, 22:24
I called the ATC today to ask about the 2000 mile patch requirements and got the expected gospel about a pure hike and walking past each white blaze. I asked them how they qualified 2000 milers - merely on the hikers' word or do they have the hiker tell him the total count of white blazes? Sounding a little put off, the response was that 2000 milers are purists and they ask a few purist type questions and can readily tell from the responses when a hiker has been less than pure. After pushing a little, the guy admitted that some slackers probably do sneak past their test and get a patch anyway. He immediately went into how it was about to become a moot point and that all the turmoil would be solved with technology shortly. He let me in on their little secret - hikers have to apply for the 2000 mile patch before they get on the trail and must receive and wear the patch on their hike. Growing more excited he says a little RFID-like tag imbedded in the patch reads a special code that was secretly added to new white paint applied to the blazes over the past 3 years. Now very excited, the ATC guy says that there is no "2000" on the patch, but a digital counter that goes all the way to 2174.2 and if you don't pass every white blaze, you will never get there. I said, "you mean to tell me the hiker will never get to Maine (or Georgia if they are SOBO)?" He stammers and says, "you are missing the whole point!" I replied, "OK" (rolled my eyes), "but who is going to test this crazy contraption". He replied, "why Baltimore Jack and his friend Bfitz, of course, and they are out there right now". I had to hang up at this point as I was about to burst into hysterics.
HYOH
Of course if you section hike over, say 28 years like I did (and of course passed every single white blaze), you gotta replace the batteries.
On the other hand, how do they factor in trail relocations?
On the other hand, how do they factor in trail relocations?
You're expected to walk the "current" trail.
Which is why I'm already in doodoo. I've probably walked dozens of miles of "old" trail. I mean, places where you could see ancient, faded blazes or even painted-over blazes. Took the "old" AT into Monson, and into Falls Village CT. Why in blazes did they route it away from town? (Especially Monson.) To save a mile or two on country roads? Oh, the horror, the horror!
Fannypack
04-05-2007, 07:11
I have a question.
I have seen some hikers describe their hike as an "End to End hike"...
What does "End to End hike" mean to you? Does it mean "thru-hike" to u?
I would think my hike of the AT & PCT were End to End hikes and not thru-hikes. I will describe my reasoning after hearing how others describe an "End to End hike?"...
I put this in the "purist dilemma" thread because to me it seems to fit here.
Does anyone believe that "End to End hike" vs "thru-hike" deserves a separate thread?
Thanks for your feedback.
End-to-end = thru-hike, as far as I'm concerned. No real diff that I can see.
LIhikers
04-05-2007, 11:22
My wife, who is the purist between us, would demand that we depart the shelter the same way we came in and not miss one step of the AT. My approach would be more practical, I'd depart by the path that takes me in the direction I want to go.
Lone Wolf
04-05-2007, 11:24
3 nobos took the creeper out of town today. cheaters
Footslogger
04-05-2007, 11:29
3 nobos took the creeper out of town today. cheaters
=======================
...the NERVE of some people !!
'Slogger
Lone Wolf
04-05-2007, 11:31
=======================
...the NERVE of some people !!
'Slogger
doesn't help that me, pirate and wee willy highly suggest it to these newbies. most pop thier blue-blaze cherry on the creeper:D
Footslogger
04-05-2007, 11:48
doesn't help that me, pirate and wee willy highly suggest it to these newbies. most pop thier blue-blaze cherry on the creeper:D
==============================
Well ...it doesn't help much either that you can look down from the trail and see it.
'Slogger
Lone Wolf
04-05-2007, 11:49
==============================
Well ...it doesn't help much either that you can look down from the trail and see it.
'Slogger
and it leads to 2 cafes with ice cream
Footslogger
04-05-2007, 11:50
and it leads to 2 cafes with ice cream
==============================
Maybe they'll backtrack after the ice cream ???
...NOT !!
'Slogger
atbeatle
04-05-2007, 12:27
Blue blazed official bad weather route around Blood Mtn. in GA for instance. Would you rather be a dead purist struck by lightning, or a live thru-hiker with blue blaze miles. PS, I took the blue blazed Laurel Fork Trail past the waterfalls, and missed the AT, which was on fire and actively being fought by fire crews. I still think I thru-hiked, and I'm still alive 25 years later.
Tramper Al
04-05-2007, 12:51
Me, I always come back to the trail at the same spot as where I left it. But who cares? Only me.
There really is no such thing as a "purist", and if there were it would only be defined as someone who seems to have a more strict code of how he wants to hike the trail than do I (or you, or whoever is judging others at the moment).
Similarly, there is no such thing as "blue-blazer", and if there were it would be someone who seems to have a less strict code of how he wants to hike the trail than whoever is doing the judging.
It's all relative, obviously, and how you hike is up to you alone. So why should you worry about judging everybody else?
This thread is really about how many of us walk the walk of "hike your own hike". Some of you do. Many, sadly, clearly do not.
Brrrb Oregon
04-05-2007, 14:56
My wife, who is the purist between us, would demand that we depart the shelter the same way we came in and not miss one step of the AT. My approach would be more practical, I'd depart by the path that takes me in the direction I want to go.
I'm sorry. I know, I know, let people hike their own hike and all of that, but this just sounds like the behavior of somebody who needs to wash their hands a lot, or who lines up their pretzels in a perfectly straight line before they allow themselves to eat them. It borders on something that requires the attention of a health care professional.
Oh, well, I guess you can be as crazy as you want, as long as you can figure out how to get the money to feed yourself, don't break any big laws, and don't annoy anyone else too much.
All right, hike back up the trail and take a digital picture of your wife next to every white blaze, which will later be included in the time capsule pod that goes into her casket. (Ashes? These are not the kind of people who are going to allow themselves to be scattered, for crying out loud!) As long as she has a big smile on her face in all those pictures, and you're smiling when you take them, that's all that counts.
I promise I won't vote to medicate y'all, if y'all won't vote to medicate me. :D
Footslogger
04-05-2007, 15:05
I promise I won't vote to medicate y'all, if y'all won't vote to medicate me. :D
==================================
Self medication is the answer !!
'Slogger
Johnny Thunder
04-05-2007, 15:29
When I was a freshman I pledged this great Fraternity. We partied often and everyone had a great time. Some brothers did a lot and their lives revolved heavily on their interactions with the group. Others looked at the fraternity as less of their "family away from home" and more as a fun club. For a while everyone knew what their own personal score was and were all generally comfortable with each other.
A few years later I decided that traveling and studying abroad would benefit me more than spending another semester in a college town. I traveled all over Europe, and though I didn't have much opportunity to speak with my school friends, I whole-heartedly trusted that all was right in their world.
Unfortunately, when I returned this was not the case. The group that I found was factioned. Chapter meetings echoed more parlimentary procedure than Animal-House-Antics. Groups formed...Most everyone just considered themselves a brother yet trouble makers started calling themselves "Team B". They claimed to hold the moral highground. Using air-quotes they would say 'I've done more for "This Place."than you have' and attempted to enforce their views and lifestyles on the rest. All attempts to reach concensus only further polarized the moderate group.
One man, forged from the most Blutarsky-esque mold, who clearly got his best ideas while he was drunk; cried, "Well, if you bastards are gonna be 'Team B' then screw it, I'm 'Team LMNOP'". With that one sentense he laid to rest what could have been the most costly conflict our diminutive college town had ever seen, save the Civil Unrest Re: Aramark Switch or the time they squashed the dodgeball intramural team. Millions of Dollars, Thousands of Lives.
He said: You are fighting for nothing. We both have the same goals. I WILL NOT change my way of life for you and I don't expect you to do the same for me. Deal with it. Who wants beer?
Returning from my travels I found that I was of the laisse-faire mentality that just wanted to have fun. Slowly we won over converts including the most staunch "traditionalists" who were responsible for all the initial troubles.
Initially, I thought that the moral of this parable was that there will always be someone trying to mess up a good time. Someone is always tryin' to $h*t in the apple pie. Instead, I found that those who arm themselves with "Tradition" and "Moral" are the ones most interested in changing how other people live their lives. They are not wrong for doing things their own way...they just need to be occasionaly reminded of how silly they CAN sound and shown where their personal boundaries end and those of others begin.
Over the past few months of lurking and occasionaly posting on this and one other major board I have found many people with polarized views. I've learned that my desires are different from those who wave the traditionalist flag and that we are not incompatible unless they make it so.
So yeah, whoever came up with the "Hiker Trash" moniker should meet my friend Ogg.
Johnny
Grandma Dixie
04-06-2007, 19:27
Me, I always come back to the trail at the same spot as where I left it. But who cares? Only me.
There really is no such thing as a "purist", and if there were it would only be defined as someone who seems to have a more strict code of how he wants to hike the trail than do I (or you, or whoever is judging others at the moment).
Similarly, there is no such thing as "blue-blazer", and if there were it would be someone who seems to have a less strict code of how he wants to hike the trail than whoever is doing the judging.
It's all relative, obviously, and how you hike is up to you alone. So why should you worry about judging everybody else?
This thread is really about how many of us walk the walk of "hike your own hike". Some of you do. Many, sadly, clearly do not.
What F ckn Code you Moron. You should get off your big fat fanny and do a blaze or two. I don't care if it is white or blue. You cyber hikers are all alike. It makes me sick just thinking about slobs like you trying to impress the real hiker world with your bull *****. Get a life.
End-to-end = thru-hike, as far as I'm concerned. No real diff that I can see.
I agree, we really could use more participation from residents of The Green Mountain State.:D What's up with that, anyway?
Does GMC force its members to sign off on an agreement they won't post to WhiteBlaze? I've seen but a few post here.
:-? Maybe they spend more time hiking and less time tapping on their keyboards. I might too if I lived in Vermont. Of course, when hiking south of Sherburne Pass, I'd hike only on The Long Trail.:p
Jester2000
04-06-2007, 20:11
I have a question.
I have seen some hikers describe their hike as an "End to End hike"...
What does "End to End hike" mean to you? Does it mean "thru-hike" to u?
FP --
As far as I'm aware, "End to End" is usually how Long Trail folk describe their "thru hike." I've never really heard it used on the AT. Is it? In 2002 I did the Long Trail. But I started at The Inn at Long Trail, went NOBO, got a ride back to The Inn at Long Trail from the northern terminus, went SOBO to the Mass. border and then got a ride back to The Inn at Long Trail.
So I was a "Middle to End, Middle to Ender," I suppose.
So I was a "Middle to End, Middle to Ender," I suppose.
Good for you. I'm not sure GMC has patches with that embroidered on it. They'd probably give you an End-to-End patch if you'd write it up, but trying to explain to everyone you met that you actually did a Middle to End, Middle to Ender would probably be more trouble than it's worth. Maybe you should just keep that to yourself.;)
FWIW, a L.T. End-to-End(er) is equivalent to an A.T. 2000 Miler. One can hike the L.T. in any direction or combination of directions over as many years as it takes to cover the distance between the termini.
Well, first an apology, I've said this before, but no one seems to appreciate my wisdom/mistake, whatever.
So I'm posting again. There are no "rules", aside from the ATC rules for a 2000-miler patch. That's right. Other than ATC -- and its rarely enforced rules -- there are no rules. Otherwise everyone is free to do whatever they want. The only "rules" are of their own making -- and those who for whatever reason may dispute their rules.
Of course, everyone likes to think that their practices are the wisest practices around. And I agree with all of them. Think whatever you want to. Do whatever you want. Few will really notice. It's all good. But don't judge others who do otherwise.
As a matter of ethics I'm against lying -- certainly on things as unimportant as an ATC form for claiming 2000-miler status.
But otherwise, hike this amazing system of trails anyway you want. My practice has always been to take whatever side trails that strike me as interesting, based on the Wingfoot and Companion guides, or conversations with others on the trail.
It works for me and I recommend it to others.
Weary
Gray Blazer
04-06-2007, 21:05
Yeah, I was thinking Siler's shelter. Answer? Don't sleep in shelters.
Lone Wolf
04-06-2007, 21:14
getting a patch and certificate for a "thru-hike" is as easy as getting a college diploma by sending in $5 to an address on the back of a match book cover.:)
getting a patch and certificate for a "thru-hike" is as easy as getting a college diploma by sending in $5 to an address on the back of a match book cover.:)
True. That's why I'm no longer tempted to apply. The ATC 2000=miler-patch has evolved into a way to collect names of potential donees. But I'm still a believer in truth -- at least to the extent that anyone knows it.
getting a patch and certificate for a "thru-hike" is as easy as getting a college diploma by sending in $5 to an address on the back of a match book cover.:)
I don't display my certificate anymore. Displaying it seemed important to me at one time. Truth be told, I'm not even sure if I have it in my possession. It may have gotten lost in one of my many moves. I really don't miss it. What matters to me now is the memories and lessons taught to me by the A.T. when I was young.
L. Wolf, has anyone ever told you you can be kind of like a blackfly that keeps biting at the same place?:D
Lone Wolf
04-06-2007, 21:30
L. Wolf, has anyone ever told you you can be kind of like a blackfly that keeps biting at the same place?:D
no. i have been told numerous times that i'm an *******.:D
What F ckn Code you Moron. You should get off your big fat fanny and do a blaze or two. I don't care if it is white or blue. You cyber hikers are all alike. It makes me sick just thinking about slobs like you trying to impress the real hiker world with your bull *****. Get a life.
L. Wolf,
This is a bit over the top, even for you. Ease up a bit and the newbies will appreciate your wisdom a bit more. Go ahead and scream at me, I don't give a rat's ass - I am doing Mousilauke next month! I know - BFD.
i have been told numerous times that i'm an *******.:D
I'd never call you anything like that. I might suggest you go chase your tail if I were thinking along those lines.:D
Cookerhiker
04-06-2007, 21:39
You're expected to walk the "current" trail.
Which is why I'm already in doodoo. I've probably walked dozens of miles of "old" trail. I mean, places where you could see ancient, faded blazes or even painted-over blazes. Took the "old" AT into Monson, and into Falls Village CT. Why in blazes did they route it away from town? (Especially Monson.) To save a mile or two on country roads? Oh, the horror, the horror!
You mean what's current at the time? My first AT backpack in 1977 was Vermont between Rt. 30 and Rt. 9. At that time, the trail did not go over Stratton Mountain but offered it as a blue blaze alternative. So I hiked the AT between those routes as it existed then. Didn't finish my 2000 miler status until 2005. I'm OK right?
Nah, I guess I should expunge my name. After all, I got lost in the dense fog atop Max Patch and probably missed a few white blazes.
freefall
04-06-2007, 21:43
getting a patch and certificate for a "thru-hike" is as easy as getting a college diploma by sending in $5 to an address on the back of a match book cover.:)
Yep. If you believe in a "thru-hike" as much as you believe in being able to get a credible diploma from the back of a match book cover, you will get there.
Me, I'm many grand in the hole and still don't got the parchment (or the patch). Yet.
freefall
04-06-2007, 21:45
L. Wolf,
...Go ahead and scream at me, I don't give a rat's ass...
Neither does he.
Well, first an apology, I've said this before, but no one seems to appreciate my wisdom/mistake, whatever.
So I'm posting again. There are no "rules", aside from the ATC rules for a 2000-miler patch. That's right. Other than ATC -- and its rarely enforced rules -- there are no rules. Otherwise everyone is free to do whatever they want. The only "rules" are of their own making -- and those who for whatever reason may dispute their rules.
Of course, everyone likes to think that their practices are the wisest practices around. And I agree with all of them. Think whatever you want to. Do whatever you want. Few will really notice. It's all good. But don't judge others who do otherwise.
As a matter of ethics I'm against lying -- certainly on things as unimportant as an ATC form for claiming 2000-miler status.
But otherwise, hike this amazing system of trails anyway you want. My practice has always been to take whatever side trails that strike me as interesting, based on the Wingfoot and Companion guides, or conversations with others on the trail.
It works for me and I recommend it to others.
Weary
Weary, Well said!
The 2000-miler patch is for those who aren't wise enough to know that a patch is inconsequential compared to the experience of the hike. And you are absolutely dead on when you suggest to others that it is your hike and you should do what you want with it. If you constrict yourself to the rules of the ATC or what you may think others will think about you or your hike, you are only depriving yourself of the freedom and the adventure that hiking the trail offers.
p.s. Weary, I think you offer more wisdom than most out here. So, I would like to thank you and encourage you to keep it coming - this place needs your input.
Neither does he.
I know, but the way he went off he sounded like he cared ... for a change.
The 2000-miler patch is for those who aren't wise enough to know that a patch is inconsequential compared to the experience of the hike. And you are absolutely dead on when you suggest to others that it is your hike and you should do what you want with it. If you constrict yourself to the rules of the ATC or what you may think others will think about you or your hike, you are only depriving yourself of the freedom and the adventure that hiking the trail offers.The ATC doesn't have any rules about how one hikes.
What they have is a long standing tradition of support for an unbroken trail from Maine to Georgia. For the ATC, a gap in that trail is simply not acceptable. Each link in the chain is important, whether over the Franconia Ridge, or down the main street, or though some but ugly stretch along the way.
To me its no wonder that a Trail organization (and that what the ATC is, its not a hiking organization) has a recognition that is focused as much on the footpath as it is on the hiker.
But no one gets that. Its time for the ATC to do away with the listing. Perhaps this is something that could be brought up at the ATC meeting for a vote.
The ATC doesn't have any rules about how one hikes.
What they have is a long standing tradition of support for an unbroken trail from Maine to Georgia. For the ATC, a gap in that trail is simply not acceptable. Each link in the chain is important, whether over the Franconia Ridge, or down the main street, or though some but ugly stretch along the way.
To me its no wonder that a Trail organization (and that what the ATC is, its not a hiking organization) has a recognition that is focused as much on the footpath as it is on the hiker.
But no one gets that. Its time for the ATC to do away with the listing. Perhaps this is something that could be brought up at the ATC meeting for a vote.
It would seem the ATC is too focused on the footpath, when they should be focused on the hiker. Sure, they are the protectors of the footpath, but what is a footpath if there are no hikers?
getting a patch and certificate for a "thru-hike" is as easy as getting a college diploma by sending in $5 to an address on the back of a match book cover.:)
Funny you mention that, LW. I've thought a few times about the *****t I endured and the strange, twisted path that led me (eventually) to my diploma. At the time, it was the hardest thing I'd ever done. It damn near defeated me, and there were times I just didn't know if I'd ever finish.
And then I think about the way the I've been approaching the trail -- taking far, far longer than I expected to "finish" it, but having learned a few things along the way that might have eluded me if it had happened as I'd pictured it, one April day seventeen years ago.
Oh, and I don't mind stating for the record, that at least one reason it didn't happen "by the book" is my meeting, by chance, a certain wolfish character along the way.
Programbo
04-07-2007, 00:05
What F ckn Code you Moron. You should get off your big fat fanny and do a blaze or two. I don't care if it is white or blue. You cyber hikers are all alike. It makes me sick just thinking about slobs like you trying to impress the real hiker world with your bull *****. Get a life.
Well since R. Lee Ermey isn`t here I`ll have to step in...What is your major malfunction numbnuts? Didn't your Mommy and Daddy give you enough attention when you were a baby? :)
What F ckn Code you Moron. You should get off your big fat fanny and do a blaze or two. I don't care if it is white or blue. You cyber hikers are all alike. It makes me sick just thinking about slobs like you trying to impress the real hiker world with your bull *****. Get a life.
If you carefully read Tramper Al's post I think you'll see that he used the term "code" to mean "personal ethic", not law or rule. You use the name "Carefree" which can also have different meanings:
1. Blissful, light of mood, free in spirit.
2. Uncaring as to the feelings and opinions of others.
So whats the deal, Do you hike because you're Carefree, or because you'd like to become Carefree?
superman
04-07-2007, 09:40
I have observed some changes in the AT since 2000:
1. The purist attitude is fading and thus this dilemma.
2. GPS, computers and other electronic stuff that I don't even know what it does is commonly carried.
3. Cell phones and their use is open and common place. The shelters are like phone booths.
4. The gear and weight of it has changed.
5. The amount of available support services is available at almost every road crossing.
I'm sure there are other changes but change is normal and to be expected. I took a break on top of one of the presidential mountains as this guy came over near me. I assume he wanted to be on the apex. He pulled out his cell phone and made one phone call after another starting every call by loudly announcing "guess where I am." It was an assault and an unwanted intrusion into my hike. The point is to hike your own hike within the context that you have the right to swing your fist any where you choose so long as it doesn't impact with someone else. Some of the changes are harmless to others as with the example posed in the start of this thread. Other changes may need some etiquette.
Programbo
04-07-2007, 10:53
I'm sure there are other changes but change is normal and to be expected. I took a break on top of one of the presidential mountains as this guy came over near me. I assume he wanted to be on the apex. He pulled out his cell phone and made one phone call after another starting every call by loudly announcing "guess where I am." It was an assault and an unwanted intrusion into my hike. The point is to hike your own hike within the context that you have the right to swing your fist any where you choose so long as it doesn't impact with someone else.
This is a VERY important point and one that all the HYOH people need to remember..I had a very similar experience..I had gone on a day hike and took a blue blazed side trail to the cliffs to see the view and just enjoy the peace and contentment and there were these 3-4 "people" there and although they were only 5 feet apart they were all talking so loudly you could hear them hundreds of feet down the trail..It was all babbling junk about Harley Davidsons and Mutha-F this and Son of a B that and laughing loudly like a bunch of drunk sailors..Ruined my whole day and I couldn`t even look at the view in peace :(
Everyone should hike for their own reasons and their own goals but when others have to see and hear you what you are doing isn`t just affecting your hike anymore
It was all babbling junk about Harley Davidsons and Mutha-F this and Son of a B that and laughing loudly like a bunch of drunk sailors..Ruined my whole day ...
Can't have any loud laughing on the AT. Stop it. Stop it now! :rolleyes:
Stop it. Stop it now! :rolleyes:
No whistling either! Some may construe what appears to be emanating from somewhere deep within the beard of your avatar as music. I hope you don't whistle as you hike merrily up the A.T.:eek:
I hope you don't whistle as you hike merrily up the A.T.:eek:
Sometimes I sing, but only in the absence of other hikers.
Lumberjack
04-07-2007, 12:43
Cruelty to animals? :}
Cruelty to animals? :}
They can cover their ears, dive into their burrows, or chime in. All the same to me. :D
The first few weeks on the trail I would walk around a tree in the middle of the trail to the right, then go back and go around the same tree to the left. At Siler Bald I put down my gear in the shelter, went back to the trail, hiked the section to the southbound entrance, then hiked in. This was so I would not have to hike all around Siler Bald in the morning. When I got to Virginia I was still hiking out the same trail I hiked in but I soon realized every inch of the trail wasn't that critical. At Harpers Ferry an ATC staff member said, not an exact quote, if you start in Georgia and hike to Maine walking all the way you have thru hiked. He pointed out with constant relocations what is a blue blaze today may have been a white blaze last year and vias versa. Over 150 miles of trail in Maine have been relocated in my lifetime. Sometmes by following an alternate route to the same place you see sights other hikers miss. A Ranger in Shenendoah National Park told me about a blue blaze that was a mile or so longer than the AT but had a spectular view and ended up back on the AT within 2 miles. I took it and don't feel I cheated my thru one inch. Yellow blazing, or skipping sections don't in my opinion qualify you as a thru hiker but in your opinion you did feel you thru hiked. What darn difference does it make in the great big picture. Every hiker lives with him or herself and whatever trail they take is up to them. We all have our own idea of what a thru hike is and we should never try to make others fit our standards.
A Ranger in Shenendoah National Park told me about a blue blaze that was a mile or so longer than the AT but had a spectular view and ended up back on the AT within 2 miles. I took it and don't feel I cheated my thru one inch. Yellow blazing, or skipping sections don't in my opinion qualify you as a thru hiker but in your opinion you did feel you thru hiked. What darn difference does it make in the great big picture. Every hiker lives with him or herself and whatever trail they take is up to them. We all have our own idea of what a thru hike is and we should never try to make others fit our standards.Well put. An honest and reasonable position to take. Thanks for your post.:)
Surfing around trail journals last night I saw an entry where a woman missed a shelter because she decided at point B to catch all the blazes between B and A *today rather than tomorrow.* (I'm paraphrasing.) An hour later she knew she had missed the side trail in to the shelter at point A!
I laughed because of having read this thread, and in sympathy.
No harm done... she continued on until she ran into some trail friends to camp with.
Joon... how did the woman even know there was a second approach trail?
I wish I had a dollar for every campsite and shelter I've searched for (by waning light) and walked past...
Downunda
04-08-2007, 03:39
I fell sorry for sick puppies like that... really anal. Go with the flow I say!
white rabbit
04-08-2007, 07:41
Icewater Springs Shelter?!!! Heck, that thing's only a few feet off the AT.
You wanna real dilemma, how 'bout Siler Bald Shelter??? The one below Wesser, NC, not the one (Silers Bald Shelter) in the GSMNP.
Siler Bald Shelter is about HALF A MILE off the AT. (That's a MILE if you count both the south and north shelter approach trails.)
To answer the question, I took the shelter trail in from the south and the other one out to the north, yet I still don't consider myself a blue-blazer. For whatever that's worth.
Rain:sunMan
.
I did the same thing at Siler Bald a few days ago. It's a long way off the trail and a steep climb to go up first thing in the morning. The thing is you actually do more distance and elevation by taking the blue blazed route. I wouldn't call that cheating. The only regret I had was comming out at the bottom of the actual bald. I considered walking up it to see the view from the top, but I didn't. HYOH
Lone Wolf
04-08-2007, 08:10
I fell sorry for sick puppies like that... really anal. Go with the flow I say!
the flow of anal leakage
Lone Wolf
04-08-2007, 08:14
Tiger is 1 off the lead going into the final round of the Masters. He will dominate today.
Tiger is 1 off the lead going into the final round of the Masters. He will dominate today.
As long as he uses his sticks well. :D
Just Jeff
04-08-2007, 09:11
I'm gonna call my hike pure no matter how many blazes I pass. Just to piss off anyone who tries to define the purity of my hike on their terms. :D
Perhaps I should start a thread called "The non purist's dilemma".
That one would speak to the dilemma some blue blaze hikers feel when they pick up a 2,000 Miler application in BSP, and know the requirements written directly above the line for thier signature were not met by thier own hike.
The easy solution is not to send that page in, of course.
But most do. For they life of me I don't understand why a patch is so damn important to some people.
SGT Rock
04-08-2007, 09:46
Perhaps I should start a thread called "The non purist's dilemma".
That one would speak to the dilemma some blue blaze hikers feel when they pick up a 2,000 Miler application in BSP, and know the requirements written directly above the line for thier signature were not met by thier own hike.
The easy solution is not to send that page in, of course.
But most do. For they life of me I don't understand why a patch is so damn important to some people.
That is an easy one...
Because they want the patch.
And again, it is another easy one...
Because the only people that are bothered by the fact that they took some blue blazes are OTHER PEOPLE.
Think about it.
Lone Wolf
04-08-2007, 09:54
anyone can just BUY the patch. no biggie.
The problem is when a young blank & white idealist gets to BSP and reads that application. While I might sign one now if I fulfilled the spirit of what was being asked, I sure wouldn't have at age 23 when I did the AT.
Whenther I wanted to be listed or not. WHether my hiking partners sent one in or not.
Just saying that its the young idealist who doesn't know what he will be handed in BSP who sort of gets screwed. YMMV.
One of my goals in launching this thread was to expose thru-hiker wannabes to some of the "decisions" they'd be facing along the way. This is only one scenario out many that can and will come up. Blue-blazes, relocations, high-water, getting lost, unplanned town stops... over 2175 miles, lots of stuff will happen. Odds are, a person starting at one end will have changed, learned, and grown by the time he/she gets to the the other end.
SGT Rock
04-08-2007, 10:02
I would hope someone that just hiked 2174 miles wouldn't get wrapped up in the details of the wording on a piece of paper.
By the way, I never sent in to be listed as a 2000 Miler. At age 23 I thought the whole concept was dumb.
My dad sent in article to get me listed, however. I am glad he did.
I didn't send a hike report to ATC at first, but did eventually, months after I completed my hike. Probably wouldn't apply for recognition were I in that position today. I never did report completing my End-to-End to GMC and don't have plans to do so either.
Those who think they will want something to hang on their wall and a patch, rocker or whatever's available today, I'd suggest they think about what kind of hike they want to end up with before they start and consider what sort of contract they should have with themself to reach that destination.
I highly recommend The Thruhiking Papers (http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/THP%20top.html), especially the portion that deals with one's personal contract and the page about HYOH (http://www.spiriteaglehome.com/THP%20hyoh.html). Everyone should read them.
rjridgely
04-08-2007, 11:27
This all seems rather unbelievable to me. Don't be a Greenpeacer....just do your own personal part. Don't be a political environmentalist.....just pick up a piece of trash. Don't preach Global Warming.....just drive a little less. Don't tell me how to hike....just let me walk forward in peace.
http://2009thruhike.blogspot.com/
SGT Rock
04-08-2007, 11:33
This all seems rather unbelievable to me. Don't be a Greenpeacer....just do your own personal part. Don't be a political environmentalist.....just pick up a piece of trash. Don't preach Global Warming.....just drive a little less. Don't tell me how to hike....just let me walk forward in peace.
http://2009thruhike.blogspot.com/
Good philosophy.
Do, don't talk.
This all seems rather unbelievable to me. Don't be a Greenpeacer....just do your own personal part. Don't be a political environmentalist.....just pick up a piece of trash. Don't preach Global Warming.....just drive a little less. Don't tell me how to hike....just let me walk forward in peace.
http://2009thruhike.blogspot.com/
:banana Right on!
TJ aka Teej
04-08-2007, 11:45
Don't tell me how to hike....just let me walk forward in peace.
:welcome to WhiteBlaze! I like your style, rj.
superman
04-08-2007, 11:47
On the other major trails there are about three alternatives of trail to choose from. Usually the choice has to do with water availability but snow and weather can also be the issue. Also the other trails are not marked nearly as well as the AT. It is easy to hike for miles without anything to guide on. If you do choose to be pure on the AT it is an easy thing to do if you just watch the white blazes. This pure idea is an AT thing. The corridor concept makes sense to me.
Joon... how did the woman even know there was a second approach trail?
Guide book?? She didn't say, actually, just that it was a "loop" trail and she didn't want to miss any white blazes.
She *did* say she'd had a conversation about passing all the WBs, and I inferred that the conversation had taken place earlier that day.
Oh, sugar! No edit function...
As I hit reply I realized you (Terrapin) are the photographer whose site I poked around some time back. Nice work!
/off-topic
TJ aka Teej
04-08-2007, 11:58
In the past there were many cases of AT hikers complaining to Park staff that some other hiker didn't deserve space in the thru-hiker lean-tos. This became a constant problem the last few years the lean-tos were at Daicey Pond. When the AT lean-tos were removed from there and the Birches site was built the Park Director made a point of calling the new site a "long-distance hiker's site." Just hike in from Monson, and you rate a spot.
He explained his intent to me as a solution to ATers wanting Rangers to rule on who was and wasn't a "real" thru-hiker.
And something else that I find very interesting; Rangers tell me that only 2 out of 3 hikers identifying themselves as finishing northbounders take the ATC form when it is offered to them.
TJ aka Teej
04-08-2007, 11:59
The corridor concept makes sense to me.
Made sense to Myron Avery and Benton MacKaye, too.
This all seems rather unbelievable to me. Don't be a Greenpeacer....just do your own personal part. Don't be a political environmentalist.....just pick up a piece of trash. Don't preach Global Warming.....just drive a little less. Don't tell me how to hike....just let me walk forward in peace.
And who are you with all the "dos" and "don'ts" ???
Cookerhiker
04-08-2007, 14:01
[quote=Shades of Gray;350068]...... I never did report completing my End-to-End to GMC and don't have plans to do so either..../quote]
Neither did I after completing the LT in 1981. I guess it's too late to apply now but I'm considering thruhiking it in late summer.
warraghiyagey
04-08-2007, 14:06
And who are you with all the "dos" and "don'ts" ???
Yes, yes. Good message with suspect delivery.:)
Some people just like to fight and push their standards on others. I go out in the woods to get away from this crap
The corridor concept makes sense to me.
Me too, but it's not up to me. Either certification should permit corridor hiking or certification should be eliminated IMO.
If corridor hiking were to be incorporated into ATC's language or another entity would provide recognition, should there be approved blue-blazes or should each hiker decide upon his or her own route from the available alternatives?
Maybe what I just posted ought to be a carefully worded poll with the options selected with equal care. I'd love to know what WhiteBlaze.net thinks about that issue.
warraghiyagey
04-08-2007, 20:04
Some people just like to fight and push their standards on others. I go out in the woods to get away from this crap
Exactly. Let's just hike.:) :)
SOBO7
SGT Rock
04-08-2007, 20:44
I support the corridor thing. But there are many "traditional" purists that get their panties in a bunch over it and I suspect that there are some well known trail names (one really well know who shall remain nameless) that make any effort to officially adopt such language to cover what is already unofficially happening meets with more crap than the ATC wants to deal with - because really their job is to protect the trail corridor, not make a minority of their hikers happy. The usual argument is that this action does not promote the trail when it actually helps it on many counts. I suspect the real reason is they feel it cheapens the hike experience somehow.
pffttt...
Programbo
04-08-2007, 21:10
Tiger is 1 off the lead going into the final round of the Masters. He will dominate today.
Tiger went into the drink :(
I support the corridor thing. But there are many "traditional" purists that get their panties in a bunch over it ...
There would be nothing to prohibit anyone from exceeding the basic requirements.
SGT Rock
04-09-2007, 08:33
Right, but how do they feel when you
CHANGE the basic requirements? I.E. saying you can walk the entire official trail or take any other trail that travels through the designated AT corridor for whatever reason you want such as views, water, shelter, trail overuse, etc.
I hear panties bunching up already.
Footslogger
04-09-2007, 09:05
Maybe it's the difference between what is often considered an AT Thru Hike
versus the GA -> ME designation ??
'Slogger
should each hiker decide upon his or her own route from the available alternatives?
That's how the western trails work.
Liberating experience. The "official" guidebooks (the PCT and Col Trail ones come to mind) even mention alternate routes. Just walk from point A to point B. Before I became a long distance hiker, it is how I did my trips. I want to get to the Bond Cliffs..what's the best route?
In the grand scheme of things, though, it really does come down to "How many thru-hikers can dance on the head of pin" type arguement.
Just get out there and hike....
superman
04-09-2007, 14:41
I would not have a problem with a pure thru hike being called a Pure Thru Hike and a corridor hike being called simply a thru hike. If there were a better way of saying it, that would be fine with me. I don't know what the origin is of the AT purist thru hike but I suspect it represents a small group and a relatively small part of the AT history. For those who want to be designated as pure for what ever reason...so be it...so dubbed. Let it be written...let it be so. This is in no way a disrespect to anyone who was pure or aspires to be pure. Hike your own hike.
Don't take any path from the shelter. Bushwack your way out. Make your own trail. Following white paint stripes is pretty boring. Get out there and enjoy yourselves.
Right, but how do they feel when you CHANGE the basic requirements? I.E. saying you can walk the entire official trail or take any other trail that travels through the designated AT corridor for whatever reason you want such as views, water, shelter, trail overuse, etc.
I hear panties bunching up already.
I'm not at all sure who the pronouns they and you represent in your post. Since I consider you to be a skilled writer, I expect your use of these pronouns without clear antecedents is deliberate.
I don't particularly care who they are individually, but they should represent 2000 milers and perhaps other interested parties. It is those 2000 milers still living who I would think have the greatest interest in determining who will be invited to join this group and who will one day comprise it.
Your 1st you isn't me or the reader, but should be the recognizing body which represents the above group (everyone with an interest) and crafts the language that determines what accomplishment (who, your 2nd and 3rd yous) it chooses to recognize.
I don't think maybe the majority who walk from Springer Mountain to Katahdin or vice versa should be put in a position of choosing between lying or not receiving official recognition of their accomplishment by A.T. 2000 milers (currently represented by ATC).
What really is the difference between a hike connecting the termini that is 100% by the white route and another comprised of 95% white and 5% blue? Why should an aspirant 2000 miler be expected to stick to the white blazes when there is a blue route that would be preferable? Of course, there must be a place where the line is drawn, but the present situation maybe could be described as someone drawing it for us and not where we would choose it should be.
I really don't like an all or nothing concept where aspirant 2000 milers are permitted to walk only the official route and thus earn recognition or what they did amounts to something of a lesser value not worthy of recognition. I suspect that's not what the majority of living 2000 milers value, but one would think so upon a careful reading of the application (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/2000miler_application.pdf) for recognition. The language seems inconsistent with what may be the majority view of 2000 milers, how we advise aspirant 2000 milers to hike and the language in the application should reflect those realities.
Fannypack
04-09-2007, 18:20
just get rid of the patch, "problem" solved ...
why do AT hikers need recognition from the ATC?
NOTE: LW, i realize that u said this long ago, sorry i took so long to come to this conclusion.
SGT Rock
04-09-2007, 19:36
I'm not at all sure who the pronouns they and you represent in your post. Since I consider you to be a skilled writer, I expect your use of these pronouns without clear antecedents is deliberate.
Well actually it was more an off the cuff comment. I really stopped trying to spend a whole lot of time on this because there were too many toes getting stepped on when I was serious about this. But if you want to know my opinion, I will try to keep it clean.
I've come to realize the truth is the ATC really doesn't care about it as much as the hikers - and apparently not even all the hikers spend a lot of time worrying about it either. Only a few of them do, and boy, some can get awful hateful about it.
Calling people liars.
They should get over it.
I don't particularly care who they are individually, but they should represent 2000 milers and perhaps other interested parties. It is those 2000 milers still living who I would think have the greatest interest in determining who will be invited to join this group and who will one day comprise it.
Nope - I totally disagree about the old 2000 milers. If they wanted to recognize folks, they could come up with their own system of doing so. If say some old guys got together and wanted to come up with the PureWhite Patch, then more power too them. In fact one very well known hiker wanted to establish a system of monitors a few years back, to ensure the "honesty" of hikers. [whatever] That seems awful elitist and hell of a lot of work for some one to set up and run, and why the hell would they even care? It is someone else's hike. To check out someone else's hike to ensure it meets the group-think rules is...
Well, sad...
Think about it.
Nope, the ATC recognizes people with their system. They don't care if you fib 100%, don't care if you missed a couple of white blazes at the side trail, they really don't care much at all if you think about it. They really care about a hell of a lot more important issues like protecting the trail and the corridor. The thing is, a corridor system would do both, but the the purist definition doesn't really support that - it makes everyone crowd onto the same trail and narrows that trail to an 18" wide strip. A corridor would cover more of the land, spread out the impact, and have other obvious benefits. I think they know this and one of the regional directors even mentioned this at the opening of the BMT - but from what I understand, the old toads in the road are the main stumbling block to making any official change. And add to that, they already allow it without actually having to fight for it.
The problem is there are some people that are so wrapped up in wanting their hike to be the standard they want everyone else to meet that to be "official". It is like some old timers in the Army that thinks the new kids have it too easy because they don't make them do X anymore. But the fact is they are just as efficient as we were back in the day. Old timers deciding how I have to hike to be official, well that is just...
Sad...
Think about it.
Your 1st you isn't me or the reader, but should be the recognizing body which represents the above group (everyone with an interest) and crafts the language that determines what accomplishment (who, your 2nd and 3rd yous) it chooses to recognize.
I don't think maybe the majority who walk from Springer Mountain to Katahdin or vice versa should be put in a position of choosing between lying or not receiving official recognition of their accomplishment by A.T. 2000 milers (currently represented by ATC).
It isn't really an issue except to people who think it is an issue. In many places it is still illegal many stupid things like fail to tip your hat to a lady. Instead of trying to take stupid rules off the books, they just don't enforce them. Instead of fighting a bunch of toad in the road purists about changing the rules, the ATC just approves every application.
What really is the difference between a hike connecting the termini that is 100% by the white route and another comprised of 95% white and 5% blue? Why should an aspirant 2000 miler be expected to stick to the white blazes when there is a blue route that would be preferable? Of course, there must be a place where the line is drawn, but the present situation maybe could be described as someone drawing it for us and not where we would choose it should be.
I agree. I see it as climbing a mountain and another famous hiker uses this to justify his position too. He says if you miss 100' of the climb to the top of the mountain, then you never climb to the top, and everyone should have to climb the whole mountain to claim to have done it. I see it this way: there are many approaches to the top of a mountain, some harder than others, but if you start walking at the bottom and make it to the top, who cares which approach you used, you still made it to the top.
I really don't like an all or nothing concept where aspirant 2000 milers are permitted to walk only the official route and thus earn recognition or what they did amounts to something of a lesser value not worthy of recognition. I suspect that's not what the majority of living 2000 milers value, but one would think so upon a careful reading of the application (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/2000miler_application.pdf) for recognition. The language seems inconsistent with what may be the majority view of 2000 milers, how we advise aspirant 2000 milers to hike and the language in the application should reflect those realities.
And you are right, maybe someday it can be changed. But when there are influential people out there that propose monitors to keep the liars out, there will be problems getting anything changed easily. The alternative is to just live with it and not give a ****.
'Cause really, it is just hiking. This is not brain surgery where you have to be perfect or turn someone into a vegetable. It isn't rocket science. It isn't Ranger school where someone has to meet the standard because lives depend on it.
It is just hiking.
It is just hiking.
They don't care if you fib 100%, don't care if you missed a couple of white blazes at the side trail, they really don't care much at all if you think about it.You are correct, of course. Earl Shaffer didn't meet the ATC's current definition, and NO ONE at the ATC would ever suggest that he not be called a 2,000 Miler after his first hike. Even though he told the ATC right up front that he missed plenty of white blazes because he didn't mail himself maps in time.
But it really sucks printing up forms for hikers to sign that require most of them to ignore some of ther verbage if they are to be listed as 2,000 Milers.
The designation should be eliminated-- or simply leave it to be self proclaimed. The ATC should end their organization's listing at first opportunity.
.
It is just hiking.
It is just hiking.Ain't it the truth. Thats the beauty of it.
saimyoji
04-09-2007, 21:07
Yeah...I did some of that hiking today....remembered this thread....took a blue blaze just to make a point....but then realized that if I didn't tell someone about it no one would know, so then what would have been the point? :-?
:rolleyes:
Good to have you back Rock. :)
You are correct, of course. Earl Shaffer didn't meet the ATC's current definition, and NO ONE at the ATC would ever suggest that he not be called a 2,000 Miler after his first hike. Even though he told the ATC right up front that he missed plenty of white blazes because he didn't mail himself maps in time.
But it really sucks printing up forms for hikers to sign that require most of them to ignore some of ther verbage if they are to be listed as 2,000 Milers.
The designation should be eliminated-- or simply leave it to be self proclaimed. The ATC should end their organization's listing at first opportunity.
It's obvious that the ATC verbiage was written by a committee that wasn't really interested in the subject. Otherwise it wouldn't speak of hiking "every mile." Do they mean one must hike all of every mile?" If so, just say that to qualify one must hike all the trail. Simple, shorter, and less confusing.
But perhaps they meant to say 2000=milers need only hike at least part of every mile. If so, ATC should have said so. If that's the meaning, we woulldn't have this discussion.
Regardless, the designation won't be eliminated. Where do you suppose the Conservancy gets your name when it asks you to donate. It's all these enticements THAT GET YOU TO WRITE TO THEM.
Weary
It's obvious that the ATC verbiage was written by a committee that wasn't really interested in the subject. Otherwise it wouldn't speak of hiking "every mile."
Weary
Except is says nothing about "every mile", Weary. Not anywhere.
It speaks of hiking "all of the A. T." and how blue blazes are not viable substitutes (except under specific conditions like trail closures).
The ATC stop with the 2,000 Miler listing, or simply eliminate the written "rules". Its not like they were written by Moses.
warren doyle
04-10-2007, 07:20
I follow the white blazes - always have and always will.
I don't have a dilemma knowing:
a) that I didn't walk the Wesser Creek Trail down to Wesser;
b) that I didn't road walk, or skip the trail, from Rt. 28 to Fontana Dam.
c) that I didn't follow the road from Clingman's Dome to Newfound Gap.
d) that I went over Pond Mt. rather than around it.
e) that I went up Iron Mt. and up Straight Mt. rather than take the Virginia Creeper Trail north of Damscus.
f) that I did the Grayson Highlands loop rather than the Pine Mt. Trail.
g) that I didn't walk along the Blue Ridge Parkway or the Skyline Drive.
h) that I didn't road walk CT or MA.
i) that I didn't road walk eastern VT.
j) that I didn't road walk between Hanover and Moosilauke.
k) that I didn't bypass the northern Presidentials.
l) that I didn't road walk into Monson from the south and road walk out of Monson from the north.
m) that I didn't road walk from the Cooper Brook bridge to the Pollywog Stream bridge.
n) that I didn't skip a section of trail by hitchhiking.
So if this is not a dilemma to me, whose dilemma is it?
Yes, you're quite virtuous, Warren. But you often have access to services that most thru-hikers don't. Like a van waiting at the trailhead to take you to town, and a nice ride back to the trail in the morning, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed after a hearty breakfast.
max patch
04-10-2007, 07:28
I follow the white blazes - always have and always will.
So if this is not a dilemma to me, whose dilemma is it?
Warren is spot on with his post.
The "dilemma" does not lie with the 2,000 miler.
The "dilemma" lies with the individual who felt it necessary to take the blue blaze easycuts yet still wishes to claim they hiked the Appalachian Trail from GA to ME.
The "dilemma" does not lie with the 2,000 miler.
Actually, the "dilemma" I posed (in Post #1) is only for the purist. I wasn't talking about blue-blazes.
SGT Rock
04-10-2007, 08:19
Actually the "dilema" seems to be how all these people seem to worry about everyone else.
warren doyle
04-10-2007, 08:45
I don't consider my following the white blazes to be 'virtuous'. I do it because it feels right to me.
By the way, on the expeditions I usually don't drive into town preferring to camp for free on the trail. Either when I'm day hiking or backpacking, I follow the white blazes.
Also, I'd be very careful judging my 'level of comfort' on the trail if you have never walked with me. My 'level of comfort', 'threshold of pain', and, 'temperament' has seen me through over 30,000 miles of the AT, including a 50%-supported endurance record on the AT, an unsupported endurance record on the LT, along with several dozen 30+mile days of unsupported backpacking.
In addition to the above, your comparison of my 'supported' hiking and my desire to follow the white blazes is misguided in its logic.
The fact remains that most blue blazing is done because the blue-blaze alternate trail is either shorter than the white-blaze trail or has less climbing/descending than the white-blaze trail, or both. Many people are comfortable with that fact. I am not one of them.
Lone Wolf
04-10-2007, 09:22
so many blue-blazes, so little time
so many blue-blazes, so little time
Your post rings true in many ways.
a 50%-supported endurance record on the AT, an unsupported endurance record on the LT
Has the ATC started keeping up with records?
Lone Wolf
04-10-2007, 09:48
Has the ATC started keeping up with records?
nope. their concern has nothing to do with actual hikers
I follow the white blazes - always have and always will.
So if this is not a dilemma to me, whose dilemma is it?
I acknowledge my question may have absolutely nothing to do with terrapin_too's original question, but I've got another I'd like to ask Warren.
No one would dispute your right to choose to walk the white blazes. It's your choice and if there's to be some form of recognition of 2000 milers, surely that kind of hike would qualify.
You listed a number of blue-blaze alternatives that strike you as little more than shortcuts, which hikers opt to take primarily because those routes are easier in your opinion.
Are there alternate routes that in your opinion that would add to an A.T. hike and you could support as acceptable alternatives to incorporate into an A.T. hike recognizable by whatever body might recognize such A.T. hikes. I'm thinking of some I've heard mentioned by others such as perhaps the Gulf Hagas blue-blaze. What do you think of that idea and would you have others you would add to a working list? I'd really appreciate your input.
max patch
04-10-2007, 10:07
Are there alternate routes that in your opinion that would add to an A.T. hike and you could support as acceptable alternatives to incorporate into an A.T. hike recognizable by whatever body might recognize such A.T. hikes. I'm thinking of some I've heard mentioned by others such as perhaps the Gulf Hagas blue-blaze. What do you think of that idea and would you have others you would add to a working list? I'd really appreciate your input.
You're missing the point.
The AT is a legally defined trail. You can not take ANY blue blue trails in lieu of the actual white blazed trail and honestly claim you have hiked the entire trail. (Except in rare dangerous conditions.)
The question you need to ask is "which" blue blaze trails are "better" than the current AT and should be made part of the AT. Gulf Hagas comes immediately to mind. Another would be the Mau Haur trail.
Actually the "dilema" seems to be how all these people seem to worry about everyone else.
No, the real dilemma faces those who have walked from Georgia to Maine and would like to let those they met on the trail know that they finally reached Katahdin.
The only forum for doing so is a listing in the ATC magazine, which has posted ambiguous rules and silly rules for listing, which it admits it never enforces, even to the extent of listing a scout troop that on hearsay evidence claims to have hiked Maine's 280 miles in less than a week.
The solutions are simple. Sell a patch and list in the magazine whoever claims 2000-mile status. Or if you want to discourage yellow blazing, sell a patch and list whoever claims to have walked the distance through the AT corridor, thus discouraging hitching rides but allowing those of us with a fondness for loop trails to scenic and historic places -- and a reluctance backtrack to and from shelters -- to qualify.
Or better still abolish the 2000-miler patch altogether. (Unlikely, because ATC depends on donations to survive and a great source for donations are those who claim to have walked the whole trail.)
If the latter happens, I would recommend a separate thread on White Blaze that would keep a running list of all who claim to have done the trail in a variety of categories. (Hiked in one season and passed all white blazes. hiked in one season and touched all white blazes. Hiked in one season and walked the entire distance but took blue blazed trails that were either longer or more difficult than the white blazed trail. Hiked in one season and walked the entire distance, but took shortcuts.)
A similar series of alternatives should be offered for those who hiked over several years.
Sorry all these distinctions won't fit on one patch. But one could abbreviate.
We'd need a OS Grade A patch, a OS Grade B, etc. and the same for MS types.
Think about it Sarge. When you finally retire, you'll need a fulltime job. Keeping this all straight would keep you busy for decades. Sell the patches for 50 bucks each if you need to supplement your retirement pay.
Weary
I think they should give the purist Gold Stars and those who blue blaze Silver Stars. I'll be going for my Silver Star next year with my head hung in shame, just like in elementary school.
If the latter happens, I would recommend a separate thread on White Blaze that would keep a running list of all who claim to have done the trail in a variety of categories. (Hiked in one season and passed all white blazes. hiked in one season and touched all white blazes. Hiked in one season and walked the entire distance but took blue blazed trails that were either longer or more difficult than the white blazed trail. Hiked in one season and walked the entire distance, but took shortcuts.)
Weary
What is one season? Within one year or inside of a calendar year?
dixicritter
04-10-2007, 11:08
It's just walking in the woods for goodness sakes. Get a life already. :rolleyes:
Alligator
04-10-2007, 11:19
It's just walking in the woods for goodness sakes. Get a life already. :rolleyes:That's the life I'm trying to get:D .
What is one season? Within one year or inside of a calendar year?
Be my guest. define it any way you want. But during one year would work for most, I think. Or even better let the applicant decide which category fits. This will be strictly an honor system. It goes beyond HYOH to Define your own hike.
Maybe for 100 bucks we could allow applicants to design their own patch. I wonder if anyone makes a custom patch, and, if so, how much they charge.
Weary
Be my guest. define it any way you want. But during one year would work for most, I think. Weary
That is what I think... during one year. I may start in November, do a big section, go home for the holidays and then start again after that. I don't want to get up North too early, though.
I guess I could hike reeeeeeaaaaaallllllyyyy slow. :D
It's just walking in the woods for goodness sakes. Get a life already. :rolleyes:
As usual, DC succinctly sums up the whole issue!
I really wish the AT would officially recongnize the corridor approach. They do in practice already.
Anyway, I went hiking this weekend on both days. I did bushwhack and take a road for part of it. Wonder if my hike was pure? ;)
Tramper Al
04-10-2007, 12:23
What F ckn Code you Moron. You should get off your big fat fanny and do a blaze or two. I don't care if it is white or blue. You cyber hikers are all alike. It makes me sick just thinking about slobs like you trying to impress the real hiker world with your bull *****. Get a life.
If you carefully read Tramper Al's post I think you'll see that he used the term "code" to mean "personal ethic", not law or rule.
That's right, Steve, thanks.
Not sure what I did to elicit this tirade from the "real hiker world", though.
... the real dilemma faces those who have walked from Georgia to Maine and would like to let those they met on the trail know that they finally reached Katahdin.
That's what motivated me to apply when I finally did. I read the first published list, saw the names and wanted those people mostly to know I reached Katahdin. Maybe there are better ways to inform those who may wish to know now?
Baxter State Park was kind to retrieve and mail to me a register I put at Katahdin Stream Campground, so those behind me already knew. I wanted to inform the others.
Or better still abolish the 2000-miler patch altogether. (Unlikely, because ATC depends on donations to survive and a great source for donations are those who claim to have walked the whole trail.)
Abolishing ATC's recognition program would certainly be one approach and simpler than the alternatives. ATC doesn't need to be involved in this matter or in this manner. They could simply send a letter congratulating those who visit both termini and claim to have walked from one to the other inviting them to join ATC and participate in its activities. Of course, that paper on the wall does serve as a reminder.
Okay, here's my recognition program. Sgt. Rock walks from Springer Mountain to Katahdin any way he wants. I know he wouldn't any other way. When he passes through Berks County, Pennsylvania, I'd like to meet him and congratulate him on making it here. I'll provide him with a ride if he needs one and I'll show him what sights may interest him while he's here. When I've heard he's reached Katahdin, I'll congratulate him again.
That recognition program is one I control. I'm inviting him to apply for recognition, but if he doesn't want to apply that's up to him, and, yes, Dixicritter, I know it's just hiking, but it's a special hike. That's why people get all worked up over it!:rolleyes: ;)
SGT Rock
04-10-2007, 17:05
Hey, a couple of years back I proposed coming up with our own recognition patch. Basically "I walked from Ga to Me" and "I did it without sniveling" were on top and bottom of the AT symbol
Jester2000
04-10-2007, 17:29
Hey, a couple of years back I proposed coming up with our own recognition patch. Basically "I walked from Ga to Me" and "I did it without sniveling" were on top and bottom of the AT symbol
How much sniveling could I get away with and still apply for this patch?
SGT Rock
04-10-2007, 17:32
Two questions:
1. Did you walk from Springer Mountain Georgia to Mt Katahdin Maine (or the other way)?
Yes____ No_____
If yes, go to question 2. If no stop here.
2. Did you snivel?
Yes____ No___
Based on your second answer you patch may be sent to you.
That is about it.
Skidsteer
04-10-2007, 17:38
How much sniveling could I get away with and still apply for this patch?
Good question.
And I want to know how much sniveling I can get away with if I don't carry trekking poles.
How much extra sniveling is it worth to not carry a water filter?
max patch
04-10-2007, 17:53
Two questions:
1. Did you walk from Springer Mountain Georgia to Mt Katahdin Maine (or the other way)?
Yes____ No_____
If yes, go to question 2. If no stop here.
2. Did you snivel?
Yes____ No___
Based on your second answer you patch may be sent to you.
That is about it.
Well, based on the above you would consider starting at Springer, walk on FS42 to GA 60, road walk to I85, walk on the I85 berm to I95, walk on the I95 berm to Maine, and then road walk to Katahdin, and if you didn't b#tch about it you are a certified 2,000 miler. Quite ridiculous.
TJ aka Teej
04-10-2007, 17:54
In the beginning, there was Myron Avery.
The first person to walk every single mile of the Appalachian Trail.
He intended to walk every bit, and pushed a measuring wheel most of the way. It took him many trips, and more than one year. In recognition of his achievement, the ATC (OK, a small group of close friends and like minded souls) confired onto him the status of "The First 2000 Miler."
Thence followed others, also walking every mile, section by section, to eventually completely hike the entire Appalachian Trail. They too were awarded "2000 Miler" status.
Years passed. A World War raged.
And along came Earl Shaffer. He had intended to walk the whole she-bang with a friend. The friend was killed in the War, and Earl set out alone to walk from Georgia to Maine in one go. He asked for maps, and told the ATC his intentions. He heard back that he was laughed at. He did his best to follow an often time obscured and dis-used route. He'd still report in to the ATC that such-and-so stretch was poorly marked, that a lean-to had fallen to bits, or even that there were two white blazed routes leading away or into an area. The mountain and forest people learned a durn fool was trying to hike all the AT, and they dubbed him "The Crazy One." He liked that. He hiked on, walking with Spring. More than once a well marked trail led to a mountain top, but no marked trail down could be found. So he followed his compass. He resorted to maps from gas stations, best guesses, and suggestions from fire wardens and loggers to wend his way north. He shunned short cuts, and would often hike down to ponds or up to firetowers to see what he could see. After he got to Katahdin, after he was all done, he reported to the ATC. And they didn't believe him, they didn't believe it could be done. Letters, phone calls, quizzes and down right rude interviews followed. And then they finally believed him, that he had walked all the way, doing his very best to follow the official route.
I have to side with Earl. If you've done your best to follow the official route between Maine to Georgia, Shaffer-style or Avery-style, you're a 2000 miler. Congratulations.
Bloodroot
04-10-2007, 18:07
In the beginning, there was Myron Avery.
The first person to walk every single mile of the Appalachian Trail.
He intended to walk every bit, and pushed a measuring wheel most of the way. It took him many trips, and more than one year. In recognition of his achievement, the ATC (OK, a small group of close friends and like minded souls) confired onto him the status of "The First 2000 Miler."
Thence followed others, also walking every mile, section by section, to eventually completely hike the entire Appalachian Trail. They too were awarded "2000 Miler" status.
Years passed. A World War raged.
And along came Earl Shaffer. He had intended to walk the whole she-bang with a friend. The friend was killed in the War, and Earl set out alone to walk from Georgia to Maine in one go. He asked for maps, and told the ATC his intentions. He heard back that he was laughed at. He did his best to follow an often time obscured and dis-used route. He'd still report in to the ATC that such-and-so stretch was poorly marked, that a lean-to had fallen to bits, or even that there were two white blazed routes leading away or into an area. The mountain and forest people learned a durn fool was trying to hike all the AT, and they dubbed him "The Crazy One." He liked that. He hiked on, walking with Spring. More than once a well marked trail led to a mountain top, but no marked trail down could be found. So he followed his compass. He resorted to maps from gas stations, best guesses, and suggestions from fire wardens and loggers to wend his way north. He shunned short cuts, and would often hike down to ponds or up to firetowers to see what he could see. After he got to Katahdin, after he was all done, he reported to the ATC. And they didn't believe him, they didn't believe it could be done. Letters, phone calls, quizzes and down right rude interviews followed. And then they finally believed him, that he had walked all the way, doing his very best to follow the official route.
I have to side with Earl. If you've done your best to follow the official route between Maine to Georgia, Shaffer-style or Avery-style, you're a 2000 miler. Congratulations.
Very well put. I agree totally. Who cares how you do it.
Bloodroot
04-10-2007, 18:10
Two questions:
1. Did you walk from Springer Mountain Georgia to Mt Katahdin Maine (or the other way)?
Yes____ No_____
If yes, go to question 2. If no stop here.
2. Did you snivel?
Yes____ No___
Based on your second answer you patch may be sent to you.
That is about it.
Two questions:
1. Did you walk from Springer Mountain Georgia to Mt Katahdin Maine (or the other way)?
Yes__X__ No_____
If yes, go to question 2. If no stop here.
2. Did you snivel?
Yes_X___ No___ Comments: My feet hurt the whole way.
Based on your second answer you patch may be sent to you.