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View Full Version : 'It Didn't Have to Happen' (or did it)



RiverWarriorPJ
05-03-2007, 04:04
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Top News- Man Dies of Thirst During Survival Outing - AOL News (http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/man-dies-of-thirst-during-survival/20070502141309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001)
x
:eek:

Lone Wolf
05-03-2007, 06:43
pretty friggin dumb "course"

SGT Rock
05-03-2007, 06:57
And he paid over $3K for that privileged. Poor guy.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-03-2007, 07:01
Two words: Law Suit. It sounds like the guides for the trip may be criminally liable as well if the facts stated in the article are accurate.

mweinstone
05-03-2007, 07:09
without reading the artical, i offer this. dieing in wilderness is allways acceptable. mistakes and lack of exspirence are okay. its the love of trying to visit these places that is a worthy of exstreem risk endever. no wilderness death is as bad as dieing in town. hate town. poor dudeski. rip.

Lone Wolf
05-03-2007, 07:11
without reading the artical, i offer this. dieing in wilderness is allways acceptable. mistakes and lack of exspirence are okay. its the love of trying to visit these places that is a worthy of exstreem risk endever. no wilderness death is as bad as dieing in town. hate town. poor dudeski. rip.

this was pure stupidity on both the student's and teacher's part.

The Old Fhart
05-03-2007, 07:30
I like the way the school says: "The course is intended to push people "past those false limits your mind has set for your body."(emphasis mine)

Personally, I don't consider death to be one of those false limits.

superman
05-03-2007, 07:47
Yes...too much money and not enough brains.

One of the most difficult jobs in the world is to be a basic training or boot camp platoon sergeant. About a hundred kids are given to him to turn into soldiers or marines in one training cycle. Most of the trainees have very low mental limits set for their abilities. They have to be trained hard to expand them to be all they can be. From time to time a trainee dies...usually due to a medical condition that the doctors didn't pick up in the screening process. The military has gone to huge lengths to avoid training deaths. I've heard some complain that the military has gone too far and doesn't train the troops hard enough. The training that the troops got in the 50s and 60s was very different than the current training. That's not a judgment of which is better but only and an observation of the contrast.

I seriously doubt that the private company that had this fatality had any where’s near the precautions in place to avoid this situation.

SGT Rock
05-03-2007, 07:54
Yes...too much money and not enough brains.

One of the most difficult jobs in the world is to be a basic training or boot camp platoon sergeant. About a hundred kids are given to him to turn into soldiers or marines in one training cycle. Most of the trainees have very low mental limits set for their abilities. They have to be trained hard to expand them to be all they can be. From time to time a trainee dies...usually due to a medical condition that the doctors didn't pick up in the screening process. The military has gone to huge lengths to avoid training deaths. I've heard some complain that the military has gone too far and doesn't train the troops hard enough. The training that the troops got in the 50s and 60s was very different than the current training. That's not a judgment of which is better but only and an observation of the contrast.

I seriously doubt that the private company that had this fatality had any where’s near the precautions in place to avoid this situation.

I would have to agree in many ways, but I would also say that military training in almost every case involves a safety net. Instructors that watch for signs of severe heat injury, trained to respond to it, and having adequate access to the neccissary supplies to treat those conditions. Add to that emergency evacuation ability in case of an emergency. Besides the screening issues you pointed out, I also doubt that this private company has the ability to emplace that many safety controls.

But for the love of God, one CLS bag and someone qualified to start an IV would be a good idea.

superman
05-03-2007, 08:14
SGT Rock

When I went through basic training in the Army in "65" we trained regardless of severe heat conditions. When I went through boot camp training in the Marine Corps in "71" they suspended training based on the "wet ball reading"... when it was considered unsafe. Over the years each time a troop dies the report that follows includes "how can this be avoided in the future." After so many years of building systemic precautions I feel that military training is about as safe as it can be given that it is a people business.
The civilians borrowed one part of the training idea but not the whole thing...which includes the safe guards.

SGT Rock
05-03-2007, 08:18
I agree with what you are saying superman. If I were to run this sort of program (and I probably wouldn't) I would have a CLS bag per instructor and a bail out plan with support that the students do not have to know about so they get the illusion of being on their own without the actual safety conseqenses. It wouldnt be that hard. And with technology today a PLB, Sat Phone, pin flare, etc. are all viable options.

Talking to trees, falling down and requireing help to get up - all signs of sever heat stroke. I am betting there were other obvious ones too. Heat Stroke is not a "false limit your mind has set for your body."

Wanderingson
05-03-2007, 08:36
WOW,

It appears this article may, just maybe, a little incomplete.

I could get on my soap box here, but I will refrain from making any too controversial comments because of this biased report.

I will say this much. I have been a mountain guide and safety is key above any other priority. Wilderness training is also essential when responsible for others. Signs and symptoms? What the He11 is that?

I will also state that I do know a wee bit-o-information about desert survival. I have even learned a few tricks and tips from real life bedoins. I won't even go down the road of pointing out errors as they were presented in this article.

Oh please stop me before I go any further, please, please, please

weary
05-03-2007, 09:00
....The training that the troops got in the 50s and 60s was very different than the current training. That's not a judgment of which is better but only and an observation of the contrast.

]
Having gone through basic in 1951, I'm curious about the changes. How is it different today?

Weary

Lone Wolf
05-03-2007, 09:21
Having gone through basic in 1951, I'm curious about the changes. How is it different today?

Weary

The Army trains men and women together in boot.

rainmaker
05-03-2007, 22:32
If such laws exist in that state, the staff and organization should be prosecuted for criminal indifference. Also, most legal folk will tell you that all the liability waivers in the world will not excuse negligence. I hope they are given a chance to explain themselves before jury.

Wanderingson
05-03-2007, 23:55
"Buschow wasn't told that, and he wasn't offered any. The guides did not want him to fail the $3,175 course. They wanted him to dig deep, push himself beyond his known limits, and make it to the cave on his own." Does dropping dead during a survival course constitute failure?

Smile
05-04-2007, 03:55
Sad. Didn't have to happen.

Yahtzee
05-04-2007, 04:38
Seems to me, these orgs and their clients should have a safe word, like S&M people. That way the final decision belongs to the person in danger.

Photofanatic
05-04-2007, 06:37
Having gone through basic in 1951, I'm curious about the changes. How is it different today?

Weary

I know some of some changes since the 80s have been made.
1. Boot camp isn't entirely "boot" camp. They change into tennis shoes for p.t. The government has decided that running in combat boots can and often times does lead to injuries of the tendons, ligaments, joints and muscle tissue. Sometimes the damages are permanent.
2. Soldiers now have p.t. uniforms (t-shirts and shorts) not hot, sweaty ODs or BDUs.
3. I recently read about some changes being made as I recall it was from Ft. Jackson, S.C. The way I understood it is that todays soldiers are more educated. The base commander at Ft. Jackson has decided that it is demoralizing to have someone get into your face and bark orders on a daily basis. DIs are being reinstructed in positive effective communication. Gone are the days of the barking brown rounds. (yes I really read this, i am not writing this to be humorous)
4. Back in 82 or 83 I was in the first class of what used to be called "hand to hand combat training" The army had previously reported they stopped training in hand to hand combat with the bayonet etc. to end the days of Rambo's (The training I received was named riot control training though essentially it was the very same hand to hand combat training and was told so at the time).
5. I think it was in the 80s that it came about that a DI couldn't use p.t. for punishment. Remember "drop and give me 20, 50 or whatever." Whatever the DI ordered they had to perform equally along with the trainee.

Outlaw
05-04-2007, 07:36
Also, most legal folk will tell you that all the liability waivers in the world will not excuse negligence. I hope they are given a chance to explain themselves before jury.

On the contrary, general liability waivers can be an effective defense, however, it is generally considered against "public policy" to include gross negligence in this statement. As I just said, it can be used as a defense, which implies that a lawsuit has commenced and that the defendant will raise the waiver as a shield against the action.

More than likely though, this unfortuate matter will probably never be presented to a civil court jury, as a monetary settlement will more than likely be the outcome.

Moreover, I cannot speak to whether this is criminal or not in that state, as I do not have access to their criminal statutes. I'm confident that the lead law enforcement agency and the county district attorney and/or state attorney's offices have all looked into potential criminal charges. According to the article, it was not deemed to rise to the level of a crime (either felony or misdemeanor).

Just my $.02 for what it's worth as a "legal folk."

superman
05-04-2007, 09:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by weary http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=359140#post359140)
Having gone through basic in 1951, I'm curious about the changes. How is it different today?

Weary


Weary,
To compare and contrast the training that you experienced in 1951 and what is provided today would fill a book. The short version of it is what Lone Wolf said. It simply said that society has changed and for better or worse our military has attempted to adapt to it. The training cadres following WWII and Korea were made up of combat veterans. The combat veterans knew that they couldn't possibly train the green recruits hard enough to prepare them for combat. The up side of today’s military is that trainees are far safer now in training than they ever were before. This is in no way a complete answer but only a response to the question.

Crazy Larry #1
05-04-2007, 09:17
What kind of human being is it that would not offer a thirsty a drink of water, especially when they can see clearly that the man is delirious?

I think the instructor is negligent without a doubt.....