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TedB
09-17-2003, 00:03
Seems like everyone has an opinion on this topic. Let's count em' up.

asmtroop3
09-17-2003, 06:25
Always take'em and use'em.
Mostly for training my boys.
I still use the old style Engineering type compass that I was taught to use in the military. (lensatic)
:banana :banana :banana :banana

icemanat95
09-17-2003, 09:44
Map and compass ALWAYS. I even carry them when hunting relatively small and well known patches of ground. They help me plan stalking routes, locate likely spots where deer might bed down, where they might find water and food, etc. Plus, as anyone can tell you, when you are walking through the woods without any trails, and concentrating on something other than walking in a relatively straight line, it is real easy to lose your sense of direction and end up turning around in circles, a map and compass help you avoid that.

Lensatic compasses are exceptional for cross country travel. Good ones are pricey. My preference for mountaineering is a Suunto sighting compass with a sighting mirror/cover. For hunting and general trail hiking, I use an old Boy Scout orienteering compass, a Silva type 1070. Great little compass.

Map and Compass skills are gateway skills. Along with First Aid, I consider these to be elementary to responsible backcountry activity.

MadAussieInLondon
09-17-2003, 10:25
i use a silva (sweden, not silva usa, ptah!) voyager 9020 compass. needle is balanced for multi-hemisphere, with that mmmmmmm yellow plastic baseplate. (i like that for placing on top of a map more than the old clear style).

http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/1dis_cvoy.htm

(i think the original silva is known as brunton in the usa?).

it wont be coming with me to my thruhike attempt tho....

Streamweaver
09-17-2003, 13:10
I too always carry a map&compass no matter where I am hiking!!
I use a Silva Polaris which is an inexpensive map compass but it hasnt let me down yet! Streamweaver

Kerosene
09-17-2003, 13:22
I carry both, but rarely reference the mini compass/thermometer when hiking on the AT. I use maps frequently, moreso than guidebook pages (but then, I'm a geography major!).

chris
09-17-2003, 14:08
I don't carry a compass for weekend hikes in the Smokys, but did for most of my AT section hike last summer. I never used it, though. On the PCT, I carried my compass (and maps) and used it quite a bit for route finding. Even stupid route finding. The PCT isn't marked like the AT. Even some trail junctions are not marked.

warren doyle
10-21-2003, 11:25
No map, no compass, no fear of getting lost on the Appalachian Trail (even on my first hike in 1973).

Jack Tarlin
10-21-2003, 14:05
The 59% figure for "maps and compass" seems high; I very much doubt that this many thru-hikers even know how to properly use a compass, much less carry one.

I always carry current maps of the section I'm hiking, and would never consider going without; I would consider it reckless and irresponsible to do otherwise. They are especially useful if you're called upon to assist in a search and rescue; to evacuate a sick or injured hiker; if you're forced to find an alternate hiking route due to trail closure (forest fire, flooding, impassable streams, etc).

On ALL of my hikes, I've used the maps for these purposes, as well as for their principal purpose, which is to tell you where you are, and to provide information on the terrain that surrounds you. They are also invaluable for planning your hiking day as the "trail profiles" contain a wealth of information.

Is it possible to thru-hike without maps and the ability to read them? Sure. But I don't think it's very smart.

Kerosene
10-27-2003, 13:29
I had a great reinforcement of the value of carrying a map. I was hiking north towards Snickers Gap two years ago and encountered a young woman walking the other way with only a small day pack. As it was only 2 hours to sunset and I wasn't aware of any side trails, I asked where she was going. She told me that her friend dropped her off at the Gap and she was going to walk home to Bluemont. I was pretty sure that Bluemont was north and east of Snickers Gap, but I had to pull out the map to prove it to her. It was 12 miles south to the next road crossing and it would drop into the 30's that night. She turned around and walked quickly back to the Gap and I never did find out what happened to her, except that there were no search & rescue teams out the next morning.

TJ aka Teej
10-27-2003, 14:21
I always carry map and compass because I'm often wandering(wondering) around off trail, or exploring old routes. On trail they're useful for figuring out what mountain or lake that one over there is, or for thinking out escape routes. The Rangers at Baxter have a rescue mission rate of almost one per day during the camping season, and they like to say that they've never yet had to rescue a hiker who had a map and compass.

TJ aka Teej
10-27-2003, 14:26
Originally posted by warren doyle
No map, no compass, no fear of getting lost on the Appalachian Trail (even on my first hike in 1973).

How did you figure out where to park the van without maps?

warren doyle
10-27-2003, 14:48
(From your favorite bridge jumper)
Read the original question carefully.
Maps are in the van's glove compartment, not in my daypack/backpack/plastic bag.

Jack Tarlin
10-27-2003, 19:58
Teej's comment about Rangers in Baxter seldom, if ever, having to search for and rescue folks who have a map and compass is echoed by similar comments I've heard from Rangers and Ridgerunners in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, where searching for lost or injured hikers is practically a daily occurence.

Not carrying a map and compass (or at least a map) potentially puts YOU at risk, it potentially puts at risk the folks who'll have to expend time and energy needlessly saving your ill-prepared ass, and it greatly reduces your ability to help anyone else in an emergency situation.

Examples of this are too numerous to relate here; there are stories of wood and mountain "rescues" several times a week in my local New Hampshire papers; virtually without exception, the folks involved either had no maps, or didn't know how to read the ones they had. And putting other folks at risk is no joke----at least one "rescuer" needlessly lost his life on Mt. Washington because of foolish hiking decisions made by "experienced" hikers who were travelling without maps.

Travelling without maps, or leaving them behind at home or in your vehicle, can be a recipe for disaster; after all, nobody ever starts their day EXPECTING to get lost, or expecting to be incvolved in a search and rescue operation involving others. Yet these things happen frequently in the backcountry, and the responsible and prudent hiker is aware of this......whether or not you're out for 6 months or only covering six tenths of a mile, you should carry a map; other than simple laziness, there's no real excuse not to.

TJ aka Teej
10-27-2003, 20:33
Originally posted by warren doyle
Read the original question carefully.

Did that. I often read carefully.
Read your first and second answers too.
Why did you craft your first response so it would appear
that you didn't use maps during your hikes?

Crash
10-27-2003, 21:48
MadAussieInLondon: the SILVA VOYAGER 9020 looks really cool, I know my local shop doesn't have anything like that.

Blister
10-28-2003, 02:11
For the AT, I even found maps to be non useful for awhile when they got lost in a bounce box. They were lost for about 4 states kinda mid hike. I like to look at maps, it passes time and I will admit I am a Blue Blazer - for the good stuff - not just to make the hike shorter. Give me a waterfall, give me a view, heck give me the old AT. For the AT only can I say you really can't get lost. If you want to get lost and find your way back, yes map and compass. For a purist - sticking to the trail, i'f I were a purist I wouldn't carry either - especially if you'r one of those weight worrying folk. PCT and CDT definately!!!!!!! You kinda miss some of the blazes (if there are any) walking on 20 ft of snow. Honestly I got lost on AT once going into Vernon - had a hell of a day. I hadn't planned on the stop for Vernon hostel - Great place. The point being, ya really can't get lost on the trail. For the AT there are so many other people carrying every type of lit. you need. Each night, take a look at their books, otherwise follow the blazes. Out of all the trails, especially the long distance, ya really can't get lost on either the AT or the LT (much shorter trip). It is what you feel safe with.

Youngblood
10-28-2003, 08:14
Originally posted by Blister
For the AT, I even found maps to be non useful for awhile when they got lost in a bounce box. They were lost for about 4 states kinda mid hike. I like to look at maps, it passes time and I will admit I am a Blue Blazer - for the good stuff - not just to make the hike shorter. Give me a waterfall, give me a view, heck give me the old AT. For the AT only can I say you really can't get lost. If you want to get lost and find your way back, yes map and compass. For a purist - sticking to the trail, i'f I were a purist I wouldn't carry either - especially if you'r one of those weight worrying folk. PCT and CDT definately!!!!!!! You kinda miss some of the blazes (if there are any) walking on 20 ft of snow. Honestly I got lost on AT once going into Vernon - had a hell of a day. I hadn't planned on the stop for Vernon hostel - Great place. The point being, ya really can't get lost on the trail. For the AT there are so many other people carrying every type of lit. you need. Each night, take a look at their books, otherwise follow the blazes. Out of all the trails, especially the long distance, ya really can't get lost on either the AT or the LT (much shorter trip). It is what you feel safe with.

Blister, I disagree with you. I think your argument points out why you need a map & compass... and know how to use them. What if you substitute the word 'seatbelt' for 'maps & compass' and change 'hiking' to 'driving'. Someone could post a similiar response as to why you don't need to wear seatbelts. The vast majority of the time you can get by without them (thank goodness). Some people may never need them, but when you do need them... you need them.

I think people are not looking at the big picture when they dismiss the need for map and compass on the AT. This is coming from a former AT thru-hiker who only carried his maps for half the trip. Want to guess which half and why? It wasn't going into Vernon, it was in PA where I missed a relo, one where they missed blacking out at least one white blaze and like you said-- "it was a hell of a day". I started getting my maps sent to me after that. You cannot possibly predict when and why you might need maps and compass. You are being foolish if you think that you don't need to carry them because someone else will happen by with them WHEN and IF you need them.

Youngblood

c.coyle
10-28-2003, 08:58
Laugh if you want, I actually once got _turned around_ on the AT. I encountered a huge boulder field in Pa. No visible footpath. Couldn't see any blazes on the rocks. Heavily overcast, no sun.

Three choices: Go along the left edge, along the right edge, or up the middle. I picked the right edge (seems like the trail rarely goes up the middle of a boulder field). After about 200' I decided that I'd guessed wrong, so I turned around and went back. I saw a blaze leading off the rocks and into the woods. Eureka! Off I went.

After a mile or so, things started looking mighty familiar. I ran into a guy coming the other way. "How far is it to Route 183?" "Well", he said, "actually, 183's behind you". That's when I took out my compass and map, and figured out I was off by 180 degrees.

Footslogger
10-28-2003, 11:02
Reading C.Coyle's post reminded me of an observation I made during this year's thru. I found that in order to avoid tripping and falling in PA I often hiked pretty much "heads down". Occasionally I'd look up only to discover that there were no white blazes to be found. I'd look to the right and to the left and figure out that I had wandered a tad off the trail. This was easy to correct without a map or compass. Not trying to downplay the importance of the maps. I carried them all the way. I just found it interesting that someone else had a similar experience with regard to blazes.

PA Rocks !! ("Rocks" being used as a verb here !!)

Jack Tarlin
10-29-2003, 15:34
On 27 October, I remarked that my local papers here in New Hampshire seldom go more than a few days without a story about some ill-equipped fool getting lost in the woods, who then puts other folks at risk as they search for him.

The 28 and 29 October editions of the Union Leader and Valley News both contained stories on a collegiate idiot who got lost on Mt. Monadnock. In addition to wearing the wrong clothes (a light jacket and sweat pants) and carring no emergency gear, the missing hiker also ignored the warning of a ranger who advised him that the weather was deteriorating and that he should re-think his hike. He also kept going after his two companions turned around, fearing correctly that they were running out of daylight.

The subsequent search for this jerk lasted for hours, involved dozens of folks, and took place in pouring rain. Eventually, through great luck, the guy walked out of the woods and found a house.

Carrying proper maps and knowing how to use them would have prevented all of this, as it would have prevented a hugh percentage of similar incidents. Whether you're out for an afternoon or for several months, hikers should ALWAYS carry certain items, and maps are at the top of the list.

Is it possible to successfully thru-hike without them? Of course it is. But stories such as this occur so frequently that I think it has to be re-iterated again and again how important maps are if you're travelling in the backcountry. Travelling without them is recklesss and potentially dangerous; encouraging others to do likewise is, in my opinion, foolish and irresponsible.

bunbun
10-31-2003, 16:23
Lessee here - Jack said"
"hikers should ALWAYS carry certain items, and maps are at the top of the list. "

And I agree - 110%

Skyline
12-12-2003, 10:05
The only time I DON'T carry a map is if I'm hiking local trails in SNP or GWNF that I've been on dozens or even hundreds of times. But if it's new territory--or if I have newbies with me even in well known territory--I have map(s).

Don't usually carry a compass, tho, unless I'm bushwacking off-trail. I usually stick to blazed trails, and a compass is just not necessary. YMMV.

Rain Man
12-12-2003, 11:24
Don't usually carry a compass, tho, unless I'm bushwacking off-trail. I usually stick to blazed trails, and a compass is just not necessary. YMMV.

Hey Skyline,

My Mileage Does Vary! LOL

The counterpoise to your analysis, which counterpoise I have read so can't claim originality, is that you don't know when you'll need or want to leave the blazed trail due to a host of unforeseen circumstances. It's a risk analysis, in other words. But you got to acknowledge the risk exists to draw conclusions.

Seems your logic might be transposed to conclude "I don't usually carry a first aid kit because I usually don't get hurt, and thus a kit is just not necessary." Fair enough, I suppose.

I'm "guilty" of the same thing when it comes to the decision of whether to haul a tent or to assume I can get a spot in a shelter ... and when it comes to analyzing the sensationalism about certain other dangers (e.g., hanta virus, snakes).

Anyway... I'm a hiker who always has a compass of some sort when I'm backpacking and think it's a safety issue worth the policy (especially given the extremely light weight of some compasses).

Thanks for listening!!! YMMV. ;)

Rain Man
.

RagingHampster
12-12-2003, 12:26
I usually study the landscape on a map and see where the woods I'm hiking in are partitioned by roads. Then make an emergency plan for when and if I do lose the trail. Most of the AT sections I've hiked are almost impossible to get lost on. If you study your maps before entering a new section, you can almost always pick a direction, maintain a bearing on a compass, and be out of the woods in a day or two. Having said that, I usually carry just a compass, and the compass has never been removed from my pack except to check it's functionality before each trip.

An even better question would be, "Who takes their map/compass with them when answering natures call?"

rumbler
12-12-2003, 12:53
Maps - and a hiking partner with the ability to read them - saved my ass twice in Maine. There are times when you get hit by surprises. When we reached the Piscataquis the river was unfordable, at least to most sane people. Being very low on food, maps enabled us to figure out how to get to a logging road and get to Monson where we could wait a couple of days for the waters to recede.

A father/daughter combo in front of us needed to cross that river that same day(slackpacking - no tent or bags and their car was on the other side) and ended up being swept a distance downriver. They were safe, though quite unhappy judging from the register entries. I don't have to point out that a full pack in that kind of water is not a situation anyone needs to be in on the trail.

Same held true in Baxter, where the Nesowadnehunk was roaring whitewater from the rain and snowmelt. An examination of the maps showed visually that we would cross back again on the AT in a mile and could 4-wheel along the bank until that point.

Maps are very important, even on a trail as well-marked as the AT is. You may only really need them once, but having them that one time you need them is worth carrying them any distance.

bretb
12-12-2003, 15:05
I always carry a map and compass myself. I also regularly participate in orienteering events here ( which is a blast BTW). A few years back in Colorado I had the misfortune of being lost in the Flat Tops Wilderness due to poor decison making and aggravated by not packing a map or compass. I was familiar with the area we were hiking in but my familiarity was during hunting season on horseback and not hiking on foot in the summer. To make a long story short I ended up on the other side of a mountain that I hadn't ventured to before and realized it about 8 hours into my return trip from Dome Peak (I had planned a loop rather than rehiking the way I came in). Thinking the forest service road I found would make the trip quicker was a big mistake. Had I had a map I would have been able to realize this. After about 15 hours I ended up encountering a herd of cattle on private property and followed the fence line until finding the ranch the cattle were from. The ranch was 20 miles from where I wanted to be. This was a major lesson learned on my part.

Jaybird
01-26-2004, 10:34
look & observe maps before i leave home....

i ALWAYS take a compass. its good to know you're heading north on the trail.hehehehehehe :D







seeya out there in 2004

Teatime
08-05-2004, 09:59
Most hikers/backpackers know what the 10 Essentials are. Included in that list are always Map and Compass. Of course, knowing how to use them is essential but hey, it's not rocket science and can be learned fairly easily. It's just common sense to me.

sgtjinx
08-05-2004, 12:29
I always take a map and compass. I never been lost, but I have been misplaced many a time.;) In Florida, all you can do is climb the tallest tree and shake it. To see if it moves on the map.:D

Streamweaver
08-05-2004, 12:50
I always take a map and compass. I never been lost, but I have been misplaced many a time.;) In Florida, all you can do is climb the tallest tree and shack it. To see if it moves on the map.:D

I dont know if Shaking trees is such a good idea,Sounds like it could leave ugly marks!!

sgtjinx
08-05-2004, 14:55
I dont know if Shaking trees is such a good idea,Sounds like it could leave ugly marks!!

That was good. I liked that one!! Shaking the trees was an old Army Ranger joke.:clap

Chip
08-05-2004, 19:09
I always take map & compass even when I carry my GPS. ;)

Tractor
10-28-2004, 21:17
...about 4 years ago my son and I were happy to reach Siler Bald shelter for the evening (chilly it was). Three young girls (non-hikers) happened to get themselves lost that night and the search & rescue crew used my map for reference (all they had were road maps with no reference of the trail). Girls were found about 3 am, cold and scared. Several of u have mentioned the fact that one never knows how & when they can be of help to someone/somewhere. I'm glad I didn't have to play "what if" that night......

NICKTHEGREEK
07-15-2005, 13:12
The 59% figure for "maps and compass" seems high; I very much doubt that this many thru-hikers even know how to properly use a compass, much less carry one.

I always carry current maps of the section I'm hiking, and would never consider going without; I would consider it reckless and irresponsible to do otherwise. They are especially useful if you're called upon to assist in a search and rescue; to evacuate a sick or injured hiker; if you're forced to find an alternate hiking route due to trail closure (forest fire, flooding, impassable streams, etc).

On ALL of my hikes, I've used the maps for these purposes, as well as for their principal purpose, which is to tell you where you are, and to provide information on the terrain that surrounds you. They are also invaluable for planning your hiking day as the "trail profiles" contain a wealth of information.

Is it possible to thru-hike without maps and the ability to read them? Sure. But I don't think it's very smart.
Well Jack, your opening thesis won't hold water because not 100% of those who responded are thru-hikers. Otherwise I concur that most folks don't know how to properly use all the features on a map, plot accurate positions from given coordinates, etc. but at least a map and simple compass gives them some degree of awareness, and only the reckless would venture out without them.

fiddlehead
07-16-2005, 00:19
Blister, I disagree with you. I think your argument points out why you need a map & compass... and know how to use them. What if you substitute the word 'seatbelt' for 'maps & compass' and change 'hiking' to 'driving'. Someone could post a similiar response as to why you don't need to wear seatbelts. The vast majority of the time you can get by without them (thank goodness). Some people may never need them, but when you do need them... you need them.

Youngblood
i don't carry maps on the AT, i don't wear seatbelts, i don't carry a first aid kit, and i don't use a water filter. Imagine that i am still alive! my motto is: if you didn't use it today, send it home!

Ridge
07-16-2005, 00:53
My husband now uses a GPS, with mapping, along with a compass. He now gets home a day earlier.

Nean
07-16-2005, 01:18
Then I'd be a girl Fh! Man, its too bad Jack doesn't have an opinion on this. At the risk of being called bad names, I'll say I prefer not having maps on the AT. I carry a compass but only use the mirror. I like to trim my nose hair before I get to town. Someday I would like to learn to use one properly though. Maps can be fun and useful, carry them if it makes you feel better.

MOWGLI
07-16-2005, 06:46
i don't carry maps on the AT, i don't wear seatbelts, i don't carry a first aid kit, and i don't use a water filter. Imagine that i am still alive! my motto is: if you didn't use it today, send it home!

But you carry a cellphone? Go figure! Do you talk on the phone while you drive in your car - without your seatbelt on, all the while drinking your untreated water? Man, you're dangerous! :D

Two Speed
07-16-2005, 06:46
I cheat, and consider the compass built into my cheapo Timex watch to be sufficiently accurate. That sucker is guaranteed to be accurate to the nearest 20 degrees. :jump

On the other hand, the one time I did manage to get turned around on the AT near Wayah Gap, I was able to spot two radio towers that were on the map and get myself sorted out. I won't say that the bearings shown on the Timex were accurate, but the angle between them did match up pretty nicely with the map once I got a decent fix on my position. :clap

Short version: Don't know that I would bother with a good compass (usually heavy), but there are quite a few watches with a built in flux gate compass. They usually aren't the most accurate instruments, but they do work. They work even better if one reads the directions and sets the magnetic declination, and one day, I'm gonna learn how to do that.

On to something inflammatory. While I do consider a map & compass essential, I can't be bothered with one of those gee-whiz altimeter wrist watch combos (usually with the "GPS/heart monitor/computer/death ray" options). Everyone that I saw using one looked like they were spending far too much time screwing with them, or discovered that they were giving wildly inaccurate elevations due to changing barometric pressure.

Nean
07-16-2005, 07:55
There is no such thing as cheating to get to your destination, however some do lie.:datz

fiddlehead
07-19-2005, 06:15
But you carry a cellphone? Go figure! Do you talk on the phone while you drive in your car - without your seatbelt on, all the while drinking your untreated water? Man, you're dangerous! :D
I don't carry a cell phone when hiking (yet) but i do when driving.
Today (here in Thailand) I watched a young girl driving her motorcycle with 3 passengers and she (the driver) was talking on her cell phone in heavy traffic!
"If you're not living on the edge, your taking up too much space"

ps. To me the cell phone has many advantages over seatbelts, water filters, or 1st aid kits.: (i forgot to add that my girlfriend also uses hers as an alarm clock and camera) those other items are just things people use to feel more secure. (sort of like the fence around the dog, who guards the house with the barred windows, and double dead bolted doors which is also protected by the alarm system ) (i don't lock my house either. )

Sly
07-19-2005, 10:56
Due to the nature of how people use cellphones during the course of my job being a slacky for the Home Depot, I hate the god damn things!

It's unfreakin' believable how rude people can be. They walk up to the counter while conversing and expect to get service like I can read their mind!

In the middle of a transaction, ring ring drop everything to answer their CP.

And if they're not already on the phone or getting calls in my presence the 1st thing they do is lay down their precious CP's on the counter. Or you see them walking around with their headsets or ear pieces speaking into space looking like total goof balls!

Yesterday, I had three of them within 15 feet all yakking away, I nearly flipped! :datz

Mags
07-19-2005, 11:21
It's unfreakin' believable how rude people can be. They walk up to the counter while conversing and expect to get service like I can read their mind!



The local hardware store, McGuckin's, has a cool policy: If you are on a cell phone, the person at the register will skip you and go to the next person in the line. :)

Cell phones have their place...but people have become addicted to instant and readily avail. communication. The latest craze is now a blackberry. So not only can you talk on the phone at all time...you can check your e-mail at all time, too.

I work for al local ISP. It amazes me how many people are on "vacation", but still need some way to check their work e-mail!

Modern technology has made it possible for my Dad to safely go on a vacation (only child, grandma is 85 yo) and still be reachable if something happens via his cell phone.... it has also made it possible for a person to be tethered to their job no matter where they are. Many companies expect you to be avail. at all times due to technology.

A double-edged sword these wonder gadgets...

Meadow Creek
07-19-2005, 11:28
I used to work at a reproductive health clinic, and I've witnessed patients answering cell phones while they were on the table getting an exam! Just because you can receive calls any and everywhere doesn't mean you should...

fiddlehead
07-20-2005, 22:02
Yes, there seems to be a definite ettiquette for cell phone users. Here in Thailand ,where i believe cell phones are much more used by EVERYONE, and have been for some time now, people rarely will answer their phones if they are bars, restaurants, talking to someone, checking out at a store, etc. I think you the complaints i am seeing here is from people who perhaps are new to the cell phone game and it will take some time for there to be a "right time or wrong time" to be answering your phone.

When you go to the movies here, they ask you to please turn off your cell phones and, believe it or not, almost everyone does it! But people in general are much more polite here than back in the states. Most good things take time.

Cuppa Joe
10-20-2005, 19:34
Sorry to say but there is no need for a map or compass on the AT. Are they useful, probably, but the Trail is so well blazed you don't need them. I didn't carry either.

Did I wander off the trail? Yep, a few times, but you realize that real quick and you just backtrack. There are very few sections where the blazes are far and few between.

Again, just stating what I did and it worked for me. Will I carry them on the PCT when I do that one, hell yes I will!

Cuppa