Messages being deleted on Trailplace

[attroll]

I was wondering if anyone has had the same problem I am having on Wingfoots sight. Every time I post a message it gets deleted. They have been nice ones where I have not posted anything wrong. They were just simple questions? I hope he is not doing this because I am affiliated with WhiteBlaze.net? I have no problems with him or his site. I am just trying to post and help his site grow too and get some answers.

[Blue Jay]

You have been banned. So has almost everyone else. Why, there does not have to be a reason and you will be given no explaination. Consider yourself lucky.

[Lone Wolf]

Hey troll. Wingfoot IS that anal about his site. You shoulda registered with a different name.

[TJ aka Teej]

The keyword in your question is 'Wingfoot'. Wingfoot thinks the AT should feature him, and him alone. I am surprised he even let you subscribe. Ignore the debunked webmaster and his vanity web page. Both have very little to do with the Appalachian Trail.

[chknfngrs]

just don't log on to his website. it's nowhere near as good as this one, is it?

[dionalaniz]

I posted on a thread that I liked "Flyin' Brian" and had a lot of respect for triple crowners. I was informed that I was breaking the rules by promoting speed hiking and triple crowns. Those topics are not officially supported AT uses of the trail.

???

Very wierd exchange. I didn't have my post deleted but I got the distinct feeling that I was pushing it and was on the verge of having my posts deleted.

I haven't gone back since.

[MadAussieInLondon]

dionalaniz, you cant post about hiking on his site, you can only post about him and how great he is.

hiking? thats off topic.

[attroll]

Yup.
I got an email he sent me referring to my post saying it was deleted. I posted on his site asking how many people were planning on going to the Gathering in Hanover, NH. He sent me email saying he deleted it because he does not promote the ALDHA or anything to do with them because of bad experiences he has had with them. My first thought was that he has not changed a bit. I was hoping he had. How can he be so one sided. Just because he had a bad experience with the ALDHA why should he push his opinions off on others who know nothing about that organization? That is being one sided.

Then I made the mistake of reading the explanation of his website. Man where does this guy come from, Mars?

Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against Wingfoot and don’t want to start a pissing contest with him. But he needs to come down to earth. He says on his description of his web site that he does not support any pre-planned "Trail magic" on the A.T. or at road crossings. So what he is saying is that he has never taken part in any trail magic offered. Ya, right I believe that. To me it sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

Now because of this and one other question I posted I have been given the boot and downgraded to GUEST status. So I can not even post of change my status of my account. Man he needs to get a life.

[SGT Rock]

People have had that problem with Trailplace before. Years ago he didn't delete a lot of posts unless they were totally out of line, then the word journal got him bent, then it was ECT, then guns, then dop, etc etc etc

Trailplace still serves a purpose, but as a free idea forum don't expect it. He is very pure and that is the main focus of the forum there.

[dionalaniz]

I must say, the most recent edition of his guidebook seems extremely useful. I plan to take it on my thru-hike. That being said though, his website is quite bizarre. Entertaining actually. He seems like a kid all alone playing with his marbles and yelling at any other kid who touches his marbles and then sadly wondering why no other kids play with him.

[Lone Wolf]

Yup. A 61 year old kid who hasn't stepped on the trail in 11 years or more.

[tlbj6142]

I often wonder "how much better" is the Handbook than ATC's Databook/Companion combo? Is there "good" information "missing" from the combo that can be found in the Handbook? Or is it just the 1 book vs. 2 books thing? Or history (I belive the Handbook has been around longer than the companion)?

[A-Train]

Yellow jacket,
you've made a good point. I think theres nothing specifically better about wingys book than the combo of the data/companion. Esentially its better just because it says in 1 book what the others say in 2. I used wingys book for its convenience of having everything in 1 book, despite my feelings about him and his site etc. I'll definately go the ATC route on my next thru. Its time to stop supporting him, espcecially because hes churning a profit each and every yr and not even doing research/making improvements, just selling the same old thing. I don;t think that calling motels/hostels etc. is research, thats just plain laziness. As wolf stated, he hasnt been on the AT for years. He'd probably get beat up quite quickly lol.
A-Train 03

[dionalaniz]

His book is definitely the most convenient guide. You've got a terse description of every shelter and town combined with the exact mileage. I have the data-book and the companion also, but in my planning i just used wingfoot's book b/c it's so convenient and for the same reason i'll use it on my thru-hike.

I'm all for someone else publishing a competing guidebook with the same convenient features, but till then I'll use the wingfoot guide.

[Chappy]

I often wonder "how much better" is the Handbook than ATC's Databook/Companion combo? Is there "good" information "missing" from the combo that can be found in the Handbook? Or is it just the 1 book vs. 2 books thing? Or history (I belive the Handbook has been around longer than the companion)?

Would appreciate comparisons to WF Handbook and ATC Databook/Companion.
Which do you feel is more helpful for planning a TH and which is better on the trail? Thanks.

[TJ aka Teej]

Would appreciate comparisons to WF Handbook and ATC Databook/Companion.
Which do you feel is more helpful for planning a TH and which is better on the trail? Thanks.
Choice of book won't get you to Maine, or for that matter keep you from getting there either. The DataBook is a gem, extremely useful, and quite probably all any AT hiker really needs. Many thanks to Dan Chasin for his great work.
--
You will find many comments on this topic. Try the 'Media' forum for a taste, or the 'Has WF ripped off the Databook?' topic.
To put it in a nutshell, WF hasn't been backpacking in over ten years. Much of the trail he writes about and most of the services he lists he's never seen. Most of the equipment today's hikers use, the hostels they stay at, and the issues they face came into being after he quit the AT.
The Companion is written by volunteers (like me) who hike the sections they write about, and who visit the towns and services they list every year.
You will find that many novice AT hikers use WFs book. You'll also find that few if any buy it again, and if they do buy an AT guide they get the ATC's books.
Info on the WF book: www.trailplace.com (http://www.trailplace.com), please don't mention ALDHA, Whiteblaze, or the Companion there without asking His permission.
Money spent on the Handbook goes to WF, who calls himself "The Center for AT Studies."
Info on the ATC's ALDHA Companion: www.aldha.org (http://www.aldha.org)
Order the Databook and Companion at the ATC's website: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/index.html
Money spent on the DataBook and Companion supports the Appalachian Trail and the Appalachian Trail Conference.

[A-Train]

I think the ATC is great. They are a very worthy organization and deserve to be supported. I don;t necessarily agree with Dan's whole business system and the fact that he makes money off of reused info with little research.

However, the majority of the thru-hikers I met on the trail carried the handbook, and not the companion/data book. When it comes down to it, his book tells you what 2 books combined tell you.

[The Old Fhart]

Would appreciate comparisons to WF Handbook and ATC Databook/Companion.-Chappy
++++++++++++++++++
I like the 2003 companion because it has my picture on the cover but I think it is heavier than it has to be so I didn't carry it. On my hikes I loaded the complete databook onto my 11 oz. computer and also carried those pages of the handbook that described trail towns where I was planning to stop. This way I had all the milage information for the entire trail plus lodging info, phone numbers, etc., of towns I was interested in.
For anyone who's interested, the 2003 companion cover photo was a morning shot taken on from one of my favorite mountains, Mt. Height, looking at Mt Washington.

[gravityman]

Would appreciate comparisons to WF Handbook and ATC Databook/Companion.-Chappy

You will want them both. Each have slightly different town information. One will have a map for a town which the other doesn't have. Wingie's book is fun on trail as it does tell you a few interesting trail facts. It's fun to curse him when he makes lame comments.

Make sure to cut the books up and put them in your bounce box.

Gravity man

[RagingHampster]

I'm also a banned castaway after making 3-posts at Trailplace.
My suicide comments were in regards to peoples use of PDAs.

I took a look at the wingy book, and would much rather take the data book for the trail, along with sections of the companion for town use.

ATC all the way baby, down with wingnut!

[Bankrobber]

I feel bad for Wingfoot. He have invested his whole life in the Appalachian Trail, only to be met with more ridicule and disrespect than anyone else in the community. Not that he doesn't deserve it, but I still feel bad.
I was on his list for a few months. There seemed to be only 3 people who posted. Everything was negative. The trail was going to hell through the use of cell phones, blue blazing, etc... Sometimes he gets fired up, and posts 2 or 3 tirades in the space of an hour or two. Many posts are from 2 fellows who just praise Wingfoot, with e-mails titled "Thank God for Wingfoot." I still have some on my e-mail account. E-mail me and I will send you some choice samples of Wingfoot mail.
I tried to e-mail benign posts to the list at times. Subjects that were blocked included posts about weather on the AT and technology debates. I tried to e-mail him personal questions a few times, and he either did not respond or seemed curt and dismissive.
I did not bring his book. A friend of mine who helped outfit me had said the book was full of errors.
I would like to hear Baltimore Jack weigh in on the subject.

[Moon Monster]

For a thru-hike, why not carry both books (in pieces for weight savings)? The extra cost is worth the extra information. I carried both in 2003 and I found both very useful in their own way.

Wingfoot changed the format of his version for 2003, and presumably beyond. He eliminated the shelter descriptions to give room for a very very comprehensive and quite accurate data section. Half of W's book is data now, and I found it much more useful than the ATC data book. It has many more water sources and other points of info and their locations to the tenth of a mile listed as distances from both Katahdin and from Springer (rather than listed based on the various guide-book sections). You flip to the second half to see descriptions of towns/road crossings, etc.

There are errors, omissions, and different things listed in both books and having both can offset each's lackings. I also carried Baltimore Jack's article on resupply, which has great nuggets that the two guidebooks lack.

[Jack Tarlin]

Please note: I am entering this dialog ONLY because I was specifically asked to; this subject has been done to death here and elsewhere and I have no wish to spend more time on this than I have to.

I want to start by saying that I have an extraordinary ammount of respect for Dan Bruce; in particular, I respect the ammount of time he has spent on the Trail; more than that, I respect the ammount of time he has spent subsequently helping people plan and prepare for their thru-hikes. For many years, his Thru-Hikers Handbook was THE authoritative work for those planning a thru hike, as well as being an invaluable resource for folks once they were actually out on the Trail. This book proved of inestimable value to me as I planned my first long hike on the Trail, back in the winter of 1994, and it is still a remarkably useful work.

That being said, it's no secret that I don't participate on Trailplace anymore, nor do I steer prospective hikers there, for several reasons. First of all, while there's a great deal of useful information there in regards to planning and preparing a thru-hike, virtually all of this information, or similar and or better information, can be found elsewhere. (There is particularly useful info found at the ATC and ALDHA sites, www.atconf.org and www.aldha.org).

There used to be a greeat deal of other good info at Trailplace, back when it was indisputably the best interactive information site/resource on the Internet, but there are certainly better Forums in existence today, particularly this one here at Whiteblaze. Unfortunately, I feel that the level of administrative control found at Trailplace inhibits and frequently prohibits the open exchange of information and divergent opinion, and it is the free exchange of ideas and information that seems to me to be the principal purpose of a site such as Trailplace. The fact of the matter is that there are all sorts of topics and subject regarding the Trail and the phenomena of thru-hiking that are debatable---everyone has their own views on how they hike, why they hike, what they should carry, where they should stay, how they should feel about their trips, etc. It is unfortunate, but inescapably true that there are simply too many subjects and views that are not permitted open and free discussion at the Trailplace site because the site administrator does not wish to permit that sort of dialog and discussion, primarily because of a feeling that that the opinions and beliefs of that adminstration are the ONLY viewpoint one should hold, and the only one that matters, therfore eliminating the need to present, discuss, or debate alternative viewpoints.

In the end, this stifles a great deal of discussion, in fact, "stifle" is perhaps too weak a word. The level of administrative control over the Trailplace site effectively prevents fair and open dialog on all sorts of issues, and forces participants and contributors to always temper or limit their commentary or contributons in order to satisty the demands of restrictions set by the site administration. It also, regrettably, eliminates from any discussion or debate all sorts of things, and by so severely limiting the type of things that can be discussed, and limiting HOW they can be discussed, it effectively prohibits the free and unfettered exchange of information. This is why I no longer spend any time there. I refuse to alter or adjust my writing style in order to conform to such demands, nor do I think it fair or constructive that some topics are forbidden altogether. Being so restrictive in the the release and publication of divergent ideas and opinions is not, to me, the wisest policy if one is truly interested in educating people and exchanging information.

Over the past few years, it's evident that a great many folks feel the same way, and have ceased to visit or contribute to Trailplace. In some cases, this decision was voluntary; in many cases, in fact, all too many, it was not. Happily, there are other sites in existence now where folks can exchange ideas, questions, and opposing views. Because of this, I generally stay away from threads such as this one; this subject has been rehashed again and again, and usually, the threads serve no purpose and degenerate, as this one already has, into childish name-calling and invective.

At this point, most folks in the internet Trail community know all about the "problem" with Trailplace, and most of them go elsewehere to seek out and to exchange information. Folks who continue to go there do so in the full knowledge that the site has all sorts of regulations and policies that affect their contributions there, and in accepting the existence of these policies, they should obey them without complaint, primarily as a courtesy and out of respect to the person who created, maintains, and administers the site. If they find the restrictions of the site too onerous or inconvenient, well they are certainly free to go elsewhere. However, to keep on harping and whining about this issue is tiresome and accomplishes very little, which is another reason I detest seeing this matter debated again and again on other forums. If you wish to visit Trailplace, you are free to do so, but everyone who does at this point is presumably aware of the unique rules and expectations set by the site's administration, so if you go there and discover it's not to your taste, then simply go elsewhere. But for folks to spend so much time in later months (and sometimes years!) rehashing this issue, and in taking so much time and energy to criticize and chastice Mr. Bruce, is, in my opinion, a pretty foolish way to spend one's time.

Dan Bruce has contributed an extraordinary body of work over the years that has helped thousands of people plan and hike the trip of their lives; in continuing to publish his Handbook, one of the two most useful books of its sort in existence, he continues to produce extremely valuable material for thru-hikers and dreamers. Dan's critics, and they are legion, all too often are completely unable to acknowledge anything positive that he's done, and this is as unfair as it is immature. That being said, people who wish to visit and contribute to his website are welcome to do so, provided they are aware of what is expected, or perhaps I should say, what is demanded of them. People who don't wish to visit there anymore are more than welcome to contribute their comments and ideas elsewhere, but to spend so much time and energy over this matter, to hold grudges and grievances years later, to continually rehash this totally insignificant subject again and again ad nauseum, is, in my opinion, a colossal waste of time. There are lots of folks who are unhappy with Trailplace and its administration. Big deal. Get over it. I honestly think there are plenty of more worthwhile things for people to be concerned about.

[Jack Tarlin]

I regret the great length of that last post, but happily it precludes me from having to enter this discussion again! I really have no wish to discuss it further.

On a happier note, I'm planning to update my maildrop/resupply/lodging information in early January, which will include updates and changes on the Trail and in towns, in order to provide more accurate information for the folks hiking in 2004. The present version of this information can be found either in the "articles" section here on Whiteblaze, or by looking in the "Media" section of the Forums; some of you may find this material useful in the months ahead.

[Rain Man]

... I generally stay away from threads such as this one; this subject has been rehashed again and again, and usually, the threads serve no purpose .... At this point, most folks in the internet Trail community know all about the "problem" with Trailplace, and most of them go elsewehere to seek out and to exchange information. ... However, to keep on harping and whining about this issue is tiresome and accomplishes very little, which is another reason I detest seeing this matter debated again and again on other forums. ....

Jack,

I am a newbie backpacker and WhiteBlaze member, so with some trepidation, I want to disagree with you in some respects.

I believe WhiteBlaze has added a thousand members this year, if I understand correctly. As all those new members come on board, many/most will be totally ignorant about Trailplace.

Personally, rather than avoiding speaking periodically of the problems there, I think it is the duty that those in the know explain it continually. Rather than "accomplishing little," it educates greatly. Sorry if you're so in the know that you no longer need to know, but the rest of us aren't there yet.

"Rehashing" this most certainly does serve a good purpose. I'd certainly be totally ignorant (and perhaps walking into an ambush over there) if the good crowd on WhiteBlaze didn't discuss this from time to time.

Now, I will agree with your concerns if the discussions denegrate into "name calling" and the like. But please reconsider raising the drawbridge just because you're across ahead of us.

Thanks for listening to another perspective.
Rain Man

[Skeemer]

Rain Man's reasoning is sound. I'm of the belief that most members new to this forum do not take the time to go back and read all the prior posts. This is not the only topic that has been rehashed over and over again. Also, even when we repeat ourselves, it may not offer anything new, but tells readers something about the strength of the feelings out there on a particular subject. It's like hearing "how many vote in favor or against Dan Bruce"

Having said that, Baltimore Jack once again did an eloquent job of explaining his position. BJ not only has the "tickets" but has a thoughtful and intelligent way of expressing his opinion.

[Lone Wolf]

Darrell Maret deserves the credit, not Wingfoot. What are the "tickets" that BJ has?

[A-Train]

good point. What may seem annoying, continually brought up, talked to death or rehashed to someone active in AT circles for years is not necessarily going to be so to a newbie.
The fact of the matter is that this site is comprised of a great number of dreamer and newbies who may have not been involved or aware of these issues. In fact it is worth noting that Trailplace.com is made up almost entirely of newbies wishing to ask questions regarding the AT. I commonly post over there becasue when its all said and done, there is a lack of expertease and knowledge over there, with the exception of Wingfoot and a few others. I almost feel a responsibility to add opinions and give help so that one dominant opinion is not the only one heard. The beauty of this site is that so many experienced folks can give opinions, many of them differing, allowing newbies to decide which approach and philosophy they agree with.

To get back to my point. Sure if you spend hours and days and years around the AT community i.e. on the Trail and on the interent forums, you as a veteran may get "tired" of the same old questions and discussions. However its important to realize that the AT and its issues are new to many people each day and year, and its important that topics are rehashing or discussed to death. If your tired of the discussion, simply don't participate or choose not to even go to the thread. ATrolls setup allows you to see the subject of the thread so it should easily be able to locate (i.e. Wingfoot, Trailplace etc.)

And because this forum is a democracy and there is no higher power so to speak, it is noones particular responsibility, power or decision to decide when a thread should be ended. Most threads will naturally end themselves over time. The only time when someone needs to step in is when a legit discussion turns into a name calling affair or totally unrelated conversations.

[chief]

Technically speaking, what A-Train describes is more anarchy than democracy. Of course whiteblaze.net is not unique in this, it's the nature of the animal.

Like all forums I've seen, there are several kinds of participants. First, there are the interested newbies, looking for information if not outright help. These should be taken most seriously. Then, there are the helpful veterans, always willing to answers questions as best they can and offer all sorts of helpful insights. Next, there are the self-appointed gurus, who cannot be contradicted, at least in their own minds. You can recognize them on the trail by their entourage. Lastly, there are the one-liners, who really offer very little that's helpful and frequently desparage other participants.

Some participants, such as myself, fit different categories, depending on the subject. Taken together, these all make for a very lively and interesting forum, unlike Trailplace.

[Jack Tarlin]

Wolf, your last comment was more than a little silly. I'm not trying to take "credit" from Darrell or anyone else that's been around the Trail community longer than me. If you re-read my post, I spent a good deal of it praising some of the work that Dan has done in the past....I have no trouble at all giving credit to others when it is due.

My "ticket" is my credibility, which was earned the hard way. Having thru-hiked the last seven years in a row, this puts me in a rather unique position to talk about the contemporary trail, especially when compared to other folks who may not have have spent any length of time at all on the Trail in recent years.

I never intended to spend so much time on the A.T., but the fact is, I did, and the time I spent there, and the things I saw, the people I met, and most of all, the things I learned have put me in a rather singular position to talk about the modern Trail. I'm sorry you have a problem with this.

[TJ aka Teej]

At this point, most folks in the internet Trail community know all about the "problem" with Trailplace,I'll disagree with "know all about". Many might be aware of A Problem, but the details and history are largely unknown. They won't find honest answers on TP, in my opinion, and certainly no debate.

I respect that Jack respects Wingy, too. I don't understand why, after all of Wingy's anti-ATC, anti-ALDHA, anti-at-l, anti-everything-that-doesn't-feature-Wingy horsechit. I also can't respect Wingy since he's been less than forthcoming regarding his own history. Jack, you've seen the questions about his many claims. Would you respect him more if he answered the questions?

And I must comment, please forgive me, on early versions of Wingfoot's Handbook. If you took out the updated motel prices and self-promotion, they were little more than Maret's 1990 Philosopher's Guide, right down to the maps. That's just my opinion, mind you - though I've never heard anyone say otherwise. If someone would like to do an objective comparision, I might loan them one of my copies of Maret's books.

[Sleepy the Arab]

Like all forums I've seen, there are several kinds of participants. First, there are the interested newbies, looking for information if not outright help. These should be taken most seriously. Then, there are the helpful veterans, always willing to answers questions as best they can and offer all sorts of helpful insights. Next, there are the self-appointed gurus, who cannot be contradicted, at least in their own minds. You can recognize them on the trail by their entourage. Lastly, there are the one-liners, who really offer very little that's helpful and frequently desparage other participants.

Crap - I think I'm the one-liner guy. How shallow.

[Chappy]

Sorry if I reopened "old wounds." That was not my intent. When I re-opened this thread it was to get a comparison of the available thru hike preparation books. I was not interested in a WF discussion. I'm a newbie and also in the Army. That means I may have lots of hiking questions, but also don't have a lot of time to research all the previous topics. I was a member of Trailplace for a few days, but found it was not the place for me if I wanted to learn about a thru hike (which I hope to begin when I retire in a year). Hope you don't feel I'm intruding here. Again, my apologies for being redundant to some.

[A-Train]

No need to apologize. This had very little if nothing to do with your post. Its good that your honest, and the point of this forum is to educate people, so always feel free to ask things you don't understand. Sometimes veterans take things for granted and use terminology that they're so used to using, it seems impossible that others may not be familiar.
With that being said this issue is not the fault of your post, rather of veteran hikers who may be tired of talking about the same issues that continue to come up, not realizing that these debates are always knew to someone.
If Arabs the one-liner guy, am I the helpful veteran or the self appointed guru? :-?
Is there one for the distracted college student?

[chief]

If Arabs the one-liner guy, am I the helpful veteran or the self appointed guru? :-?
Is there one for the distracted college student?

Definitely a helpful veteran.

[Youngblood]

Sorry if I reopened "old wounds." That was not my intent. When I re-opened this thread it was to get a comparison of the available thru hike preparation books. I was not interested in a WF discussion. I'm a newbie and also in the Army. That means I may have lots of hiking questions, but also don't have a lot of time to research all the previous topics. I was a member of Trailplace for a few days, but found it was not the place for me if I wanted to learn about a thru hike (which I hope to begin when I retire in a year). Hope you don't feel I'm intruding here. Again, my apologies for being redundant to some.

Chappy,

Some folks here seem to sometimes get personal and emotional about topics to the extent that it becomes difficult to have discussions based on anything that either directly or indirectly addresses those topics. That is just the way it is and it is not the fault of the subject or the person that brings up that subject.

IMHO, I think that the primary difference between the 'thru hike preparation books' is in the way they evolved.

On one hand you start out with the Appalachian Trail Guides & Maps for the 11 different regions (with North Carolina-Georgia being one region). These are very detailed and are probably more appropriate for section hiking than thru hiking. These are complimented by a very condensed Appalachian Trail Data Book that contains all the mileage points contained in all the individual section guides with some abbreviated services information, but it is still layed out with mileages referenced to the individual sections. The Appalachian Trail Thru-Hikers Companion compliments the AT Data Book with more detailed information that a thru-hiker will need about services and towns along the way. So a thru-hiker would take the AT Data Book and the AT Thur-Hiker's Companion. Fortunately, all the information you should need is in these two books. Unfortunately, they are not tied together efficiently-- for instance the AT Data Book flows from north to south and the AT companion flows from south to north.

On the other hand The Thru-Hiker's Handbook was written to be one complete reference/data book for thru hiking the AT and the latest edition has a condensed data section and a more detailed services & towns along the way section that are tied together fairly well.

How accurate and complete one version is relative to the other is obviously something where some people have strong opinions. What individuals or organizations benefit from purchases is also different. But, I think that you are comparing two kind of tied together books verses one complete reference.

Now these are books that will help in planning but are most useful to carry on a thru-hike. There are other publications that are valuable for planning a thru-hike. There is the "Appalachian Trail Workbook for Planning Thru-hikes" as well as two very informative articles written by Jack Tarlin and Weather Carrot that are posted on the ARTICLES section of this web site.

Youngblood

[Chappy]

Youngblood:
Many thanks for your thoughtful summation on helpful publications. You did mention some sources that I know I will find useful. Thanks especially for your direction to the "Articles" section. That will be a big help. My work doesn't allow for much computer time so I really need to use it wisely.

[Jack Tarlin]

I understand that some of the newer folks don't know the history behind this whole discussion and are naturally curious about it.

At the same time, I think the whole thing has been done to death here and elsewhere on the Internet; I also think a lot of folks are tired of the whole subject.

Teej stated "I respect that Jack respects Wingy too. I don't understand why...... Jack, you've seen the questions about his many claims. Would you respect him more if he answered the questions?"

Well frankly, Teej, while I admit it might have bothered me once, at this point, I really could care less. As to my reasosns for respecting Dan Bruce and his contributions to the hiking community over the years, I think I covered that pretty well in my extended post of a few days ago. There's no need to re-hash it. He's contributed a great deal over the years. At the same time, Teej, I also made it abundantly clear that I had serious reservations about Bruce's website and how it's run, and that I no longer spend any time there.

But as to your latest question about respect, Teej: Try and forget, if you can, about Dan Bruce. Let's talk about YOU. I'd respect YOU a lot more, Teej, if you could find a way to let this tired old subject drop----you were notorious on the at-l mailing list for harping on this subject time and time again, even when it became abundantly clear that a lot of folks were sick and tired of the discussion; not be be denied, shortly after your arrival at Whiteblaze, you immediately decided to rehash the subject here, and have done so repeatedly. On one Wingfoot thread, which you initiated, you not only took the trouble to start the thread up, but then felt the need to contribute to it more than 20 times! Give it a rest, already. Aren't there more significant things to talk about?

I understand that some folks have issues with Dan Bruce. However, most of this has to do with folks raging for years about being thrown off of a privately administered website. Geesh!!!! Get OVER it already. There are folks who've made it their life's mission to spend vast ammounts of their Internet time complaining about the career of Dan Bruce and the administration of his now insignificant website. I understand that there are some new folks out there who are curious about this situation, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty more who are simply sick and tired of the whole debate. So Teej, to answer your questions about how much I'd respect Dan if he answered certain questions or addressed certain issues:

Truth be told, Teej, I could care less, and neither would most folks.

[Lilred]

I understand that there are some new folks out there who are curious about this situation, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty more who are simply sick and tired of the whole debate.



I'm one of those newbies, and I'm already sick and tired of the whole debate.

[TJ aka Teej]

Let's talk about YOU. I'd respect YOU a lot more, Teej, if you could find a way to let this tired old subject drop----you were notorious on the at-l mailing list for harping on this subject time and time again, even when it became abundantly clear that a lot of folks were sick and tired of the discussion; not be be denied, shortly after your arrival at Whiteblaze, you immediately decided to rehash the subject here, and have done so repeatedly. On one Wingfoot thread, which you initiated, you not only took the trouble to start the thread up, but then felt the need to contribute to it more than 20 times! Give it a rest, already. Aren't there more significant things to talk about?I had to do some clicking around to find out a few things before I responded to Jack's last post. Here goes;

"shortly after your arrival, you immediately.." - Four months, Jack. Four months after I joined Whiteblaze I was shown a copy of Wingy's new book. Something about that book ticked me off and yes, I talked about it here in real life, telephoned and wrote to the ATC about it, and typed about it here on Whiteblaze and on the at-l.

"felt the need to contribute to it more than 20 times!" Yup, I participated in a discussion I started, added facts as I found them out, answered questions put to me, and debated with a few folks over some tangental issues.

"Aren't there more significant things to talk about?" Yup. That's why out of the 60 or so threads I've started here on Whiteblaze in the last 13+ months, only ONE has been about a Wingy issue.

Will I pledge to never respond to a thread that mentions Him? Not gonna happen, since he's agin most everything I'm fer. (Please note the restraint I showed in responding to Chappy's inquiry that reopened this thread.)
Out of respect to Troll, Rock, you, and lilredmg I will pledge to never start another thread about Him. (But geez... it was only one out of fiftynine!)

edit--> If you click on 'profile' at the bottom of someone's post you not only get a bio, but you get a window that shows 'posts per day', 'all posts by this user', and 'all threads started by this user.' Cool.

[tlbj6142]

Wingfoot changed the format of his version for 2003, and presumably beyond. He eliminated the shelter descriptions to give room for a very very comprehensive and quite accurate data section. Half of W's book is data now, and I found it much more useful than the ATC data book. It has many more water sources and other points of info and their locations to the tenth of a mile listed as distances from both Katahdin and from Springer (rather than listed based on the various guide-book sections).Where does Wingfoot get his "data"? Readers?

Just courious?!?!

[Lone Wolf]

Well Jack, you don't want to engage in discussion about Wingfoot, don't click on the thread. This isn't your website so don't tell folks to quit discussing it. And tlbj6142? Wingfoot got his data from the ATC Data Book which he incorporated into the Handbook when Maret stopped doing it. He's not the pioneer of AT info. He was in the right place at the right time. And Jack, if you're reading, besides a slanted/biased website, what exactly has he done for the AT except cause over crowding and info overload?

[attroll]

I am sorry I started this thread. It is all my fault. Someone slap me. I did not mean to be disrespect towards him. I was just asking a question.

[Shadowman]

I like the 2003 companion because it has my picture on the cover but I think it is heavier than it has to be so I didn't carry it. On my hikes I loaded the complete databook onto my 11 oz. computer and also carried those pages of the handbook that described trail towns where I was planning to stop. This way I had all the milage information for the entire trail plus lodging info, phone numbers, etc., of towns I was interested in.
For anyone who's interested, the 2003 companion cover photo was a morning shot taken on from one of my favorite mountains, Mt. Height, looking at Mt Washington.

So that is you. On 6/18/00 I stopped at a road crossing south of the Happy Hill Shelter I ran into a couple with a daughter. A nice couple from Rhode Island. She said she was the sister of "Old Fhart" and inquired about him. I talked to them for some time. At the time judging from the trail talk I thought at the time that you were somewhere to the south. They gave me some nice oranges. If this was your sister, say thanks to her & her husband for the oranges for Shadowman.

[Jack Tarlin]

Wolf---

Compiling and publishing a handbook that contains a wealth of information that hikers have used for years to plan their trips and better plan their town time is not, to me, "information overload." Instread, I view this as a very useful work, and the Thru-Hiker's Handbook has helped thousands of folks, as has the Thru-Hiker's Companion, published jointly by the ATC and ALDHA.

And as for being an "overload" of information, well, you suggested that if I don't care for this thread, I can click elsewhere. Your argument applies just as well to the Trail guides.....people that don't care to have this information, or feel they don't need it, well, they don't need to use it. Nobody is forced to buy a book, Wolf.

As for the Trail crowding, there are a lot of reasons there are more folks on the trail than there used to be; the number one reason is that there are simply more folks interested in outdoor activity and outdoor "sports" than there were previously; it's inevitable that some of these folks are going to find their way to the A.T. Trail Guides and Handbooks don't contribute to crowding, Wolf; the folks who seek out and purchase these books have already decided to spend time on the Trail, and are merely seeking information that will help them on their trip. What these books do is help a great many people with their planning and prpeparation, and they also provide invaluable help once folks are out on the Trail, especially in providing information on lodging, re-supply options, locations of Outfitters and other services that hikers need, etc. I think the Handbook and the Companion provide extraordinarily valuable information that has helped thousands of folks, and in publishing these works, the folks at the ATC and ALDHA, and also Dan Bruce, provide a great service to folks engaged in a log-distance hike on the A.T.

[Kozmic Zian]

Na......Wingfruit. Rude, thinks he owns The Trail. Thinks he knows the 'only way' to hike The Trail. Thinks he knows the only etiquett rules for The Trail. Thinks He knows it ALL. Can be very convincing....but only when he's in control. Like on his site. Ever notice how he makes a post to almost every thing on the site? Very insecure. IMHO, he's best avoided. I would not say these things if I didn't have good reason. SO, it's up to you guys weather or not you support him by buying his 'for profit' rag, or get the Data Book and some maps which are much lighter. I'm with Troll on this one....phewww...what a looser. KZ@

[U-BOLT]

Supposedly WF is going to thru-hike next year. Read it on one of these threads somewhere. Is this true or just a rumor?

[attroll]

Kozmic Zian

I would not know what he post on his site. Wish I could relate to what you said about him having to post a reply to everything on his site. But as you may not know, I am not aloud on his site. Because I have my own site and I don't need to be on his also. Well at least that is what Wingfoot told me in person. Therefore he refuses to grant me access to his site.

[MedicineMan]

But something Jack and Wolf mentioned, that the trail is getting more and more use.....so I thought I would take this opportunity to get up to the lecturn and preach again.
Eventually the AT will be hiked/loved to death--well not the entire trail, there are areas like around Burks Garden that are isolated enough to escape the hords....but the thru-hiker minions that begin that mighty race each year do a significant amount of damage to the albeit small areas they find themselves congregating in...for example the shelters from Springer to Hotsprings beginning March 1............
So yesterday I read of the proposed and intended future BMT (Benton McCay Trail) which will go from Springer to DAvenport GAp....
This is an opportunity for the ATC to grant 2000miler stutus/thru-hiker status to hikers who choose this route versus the traditional AT....same goes for the Tuscarora Big Blue Trail in Penn.
So your like me and will never complete the AT, or your not hiking for a 2000miler patch, or just want to hike in the Appalachian Mountains,,,then why not consider these alternative routes?

[MOWGLI]

....So yesterday I read of the proposed and intended future BMT (Benton McCay Trail) which will go from Springer to DAvenport GAp....
This is an opportunity for the ATC to grant 2000miler stutus/thru-hiker status to hikers who choose this route versus the traditional AT....same goes for the Tuscarora Big Blue Trail in Penn.
So your like me and will never complete the AT, or your not hiking for a 2000miler patch, or just want to hike in the Appalachian Mountains,,,then why not consider these alternative routes?

The BMT is a great trail. I saw more wildlife in 1 week on the BMT than I did my first 2 months on the AT. But... there are no shelters and hardly any people. Not a bad thing. Just different.

By the way, the BMT extension is planned to be complete by late 2005.

MedicineMan, there is an organized effort to promote alternative trails to the AT. Many of the AT maintaining clubs along with the ATC would like to see recreation dispersed onto other trails wherever possible. My job as Director of the Southern Appalachians Initiative for American Hiking Society and the National Park Service is actively working with the trail clubs in the SE to create the alternative connections that will allow for all kinds of long distance alternatives inthe SE. http://www.americanhiking.org/alliance/sai.html

You are correct about the options that the long distance hiker will have once the BMT is extended to Davenport Gap. I hope some folks will take that less traveled path. IMO, they will be richer for the experience.

Another option... a hiker could also easily start at Table Rock State Park in SC, hike the Foothills Trail to the Chattooga River Trail, to the Georgia Bartram, to the NC Bartram, and reach the AT at Cheoah Bald. IMO, that would make for a much more interesting hike than the Springer to Cheoah section.

Happy Hiking to all.
Jeffrey Hunter

[dje97001]

I had similar issues with trailplace. Unfortunate, because I really enjoyed my time spent there reading. I didn't think it was too closely controlled (and some of the censorship I initially favored), but then I posted a message with no foul language, and absolutely nothing that "violated" the stated rules of the forums (I checked). It was about Model-T's book and a couple of others (being good for people with more curiosity than time-to hike...). And the next day, the thread was gone. I emailed him about it, and he proceeded to respond by saying that the thread was getting off topic... "anything that didn't have to do with actual hiking" was not to be allowed. So I jabbed back at him about his President Bush Bashing posts (a massive number of them) as falling under the same category (not because they didn't discuss the environment and the protection of the AT--both laudible goals, but because they didn't actually involve hiking. Then, he basically whined about how his time is too precious to discuss issues with people who post there, and told me it was a free service that I was free to use, or not use. So I told him that I no longer wished to be associated with the site, and asked that all of my messages be removed from the forums.

Whiteblaze.net has shown me so much more information about the trail, and ATtroll and SGTRock have, to the best of my knowledge, treated us all like adults and stood by the more open expression of ideas. I thank you both for that. This site is truly a worthwhile endeavor.

[SGT Rock]

So the ATC may grant 2,000 mile status for taking alternate trails, basically legitimitizing Blue Blazing? I bet that idea makes Wingfoot want to vomit knowing how he feels about such things.

Personally I feel that this should be allowed since it could spread useage impact on a wider area. Imagine thru-hiking and being able to take any trail through the smokies and stay at any shelter instead of just the ones along the AT. I guess looking at some other trails (like the Pinhoti) where they are actually intentionally letting some trail go so that the hikers basically stay in a corridor along some ridges instead of staying allong a defined and sometimes overused trail section.

But like some have mentioned, it is your own hike, so if you want to blue blaze a section, then why worry about a governing body telling you what your hike should be?

[torch]

One thing people need to keep in mind about Trailplace is that it is Dan's website. He makes the rules, like it or not. It is not a free speech forum, and he lets you know that straight up with no apologies. If I am in someone elses house, I follow their rules. That is Dan's house, follow the rules.

While I disagree with many of his posts on his site, I limit my posts on his site to issues regarding hiking and if it is a philosophical issue, I tend to tred lightly where I disagree with him. I do so because his site is a valuable means of communication between hikers and I want to remain part of that forum. There are benefits to his over-editorializing. There is very little of the petty name calling (excluding his petty name calling) on his site, which can be found with great frequency on other forums. And the organization of his site makes it easy to find shuttles and information. Since finding this site, I have felt that I now have a good balance between a site that I can speak my mind and gather information, but I still visit Trailplace. I have had many (and I mean MANY) posts removed from trailplace, but I harbor no ill-will towards Dan for them. His perogative. In fairness, many of my posts that he removed were quick quips that deserved to be removed, others were not, but again, his house, his rules.

I am glad that this site is not run in the same manner, but I view both sites (as well as a few others) as valuable tools regardless of how they are run.

[Brushy Sage]

I read Wingfoot's book a few years ago and found it inaccurate regarding the section of trail with which I was most familiar. On my thru-hike bid I carried the ATC databook (which I used VERY frequently), and had a friend send me the appropriate pages from the ALDHA companion to various post offices along the way. This worked out just fine.

[A-Train]

I know this has been talked to death and certain people seem to want to put the topic to bed, however Wingfoot continues to always be a part of the Trail "community" and his issues don't ever seem to die down. I've been on trailplace for a good many months since I finished my hike. It's not a really interesting forum like this one, but it is one with a lot of prospective thru-hikers who are lost and ask lots of simple questions. I feel guilty about exposing so many newbies to just a few "authorities" on the site so I like to let the truth be known sometimes on certain issues.
I have to say I'm pretty disgusted by Wingfoots actions and how he runs the site, nothing new to most of you or myself. I have been a steady poster and have tried to restrict my hippy, freedom of speech, party-goer, raging drunk, lover of trail magic and towns and all that is good about the trail, not get the best of me and stick to topics that we can almost all agree on like resupply or gear or something. But to make a long story short I was kicked off a couple weeks ago without an explanation. Emailed him and got no explanation or email back. Went thru my posts on a different user account name and found nothing wrong really. The culprit may have been a post or two on trail magic which Wingfoot opposes so greatly.
I got a lot of respect for him but I just can't be part of something that is so much of a dictatroship. So much of the website is his backpatting and overiding anyones opinion who doesn't agree with by saying things like "I'm probably the most knoledgable person on the AT alive" and similar comments. I'm pretty much tired of his hipocrisy and all the rest. Just thought i'd add my 2 cents

[max patch]

Na......Wingfruit. Rude, thinks he owns The Trail. Thinks he knows the 'only way' to hike The Trail. Thinks he knows the only etiquett rules for The Trail. Thinks He knows it ALL. Can be very convincing....but only when he's in control. Like on his site. Ever notice how he makes a post to almost every thing on the site? Very insecure. IMHO, he's best avoided. I would not say these things if I didn't have good reason. SO, it's up to you guys weather or not you support him by buying his 'for profit' rag, or get the Data Book and some maps which are much lighter. I'm with Troll on this one....phewww...what a looser. KZ@

What a load of crap. You are one of the most prolific posters on Trailplace. If WF and his site are so bad why do you contribute there?

[smokymtnsteve]

I told him that I no longer wished to be associated with the site, and asked that all of my messages be removed from the forums.

.


I have also done this....

[steve hiker]

But to make a long story short I was kicked off a couple weeks ago without an explanation. The culprit may have been a post or two on trail magic which Wingfoot opposes so greatly.
Wow. Now that is touchy. Wonder if he posts a list of no-no topics in his rules.

[torch]

But to make a long story short I was kicked off a couple weeks ago without an explanation.
I was wondering why you never posted to that site anymore.

I was kicked off a few weeks before he temporarily shut his site down last year, but when he put it back up I was allowed back on under the same name. Apparently whatever I didn't wasn't so bad. But like I said, his site, his rules, so I'll live with that when I'm on trailplace and be thankful the good fella's that run this site are more tollerant.

[MedicineMan]

Surely he must post here under an alias, just to see what the ruler of all AT boards is doing so well, and maybe to see who is not true to the faith.....

[MedicineMan]

Well it is only speculation that the ATC would ever grant such status via alternate routes,,,maybe they will have to approve them first. And I'm sure in some minds even if that happened many would consider those alternate routes BlueBlazing...but you know, often when hiking I look across at an adjacent hill/mountain and wonder why did the AT not go over this one or that one. I suppose it was Myron's artistry in selecting the route he did...but that was then and this is now and now is becoming the future ever so quickly...picture this, a couple of thru-hikers sitting on Mt.K, one asks which route through the Smokies the other took and what it was like, the other counters by asking if the other hiker took the Tusc or the traditional route......who knows how it will work out but the term BlueBlazing is pejorative at best and IMHO not applicable to these alternate routes discussed,,,,,,,,,yellow blazing is another matter :)

[MedicineMan]

Found this blurb at the Cumberland Trail.org site:

The Cumberland Trail is the heart of the 1,000-mile Western Appalachian Alternative to the AT, a long distance trail from Birmingham, Alabama to Virginia paralleling the AT with connector trails along the way. Within Tennessee, additional secondary trails and multi-use rail-trails will create a master greenway that, when complete, will offer 370 miles of trail to the recreational user.


Years ago we did the Misha Mogwa (butchered spelling) trail in Cumberland Gap National Historic Park....if the Cumberland Trail is anything close then spectacles await the hiker. It is interesting that they themselves are using the terminology 'appalachian trail alternative'.........

Now go here:
http://www.americanhiking.org/alliance/map.html
(thanks mowgli) and look at some proximities...wow to all the connections! I'm hoping for a connection of the BMT with the Cumberland someday and or course Pine Mountain and the AT or even the Tuscoroa....
Looks like we are truly blessed in the South, one could section hike almost forever.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Crap. Don't post there anymore, my friend. Had a falling out with the 'know it all', Dan Wingfoot. Liked it for a while, but when a guy cuts off your well intended posts because he dosen't like what you say, isn't that's a bit like biased reporting, or....not getting 'all of the story'....on, and on, with Wingfoot. I think your post is a bit....hasty...Read the Whole Story. Find out for yourself about Wingfoot. He dosen't allow anyone to disagree with him....about anything. What a load of crap, that is. KZ@:cool:


p.s. + he's logged me out of his site permanently....can't get in. So, where's the crappy prolificness?

[torch]

He dosen't allow anyone to disagree with him....about anything. What a load of crap, that is. KZ@:cool:


I don't allow anyone to disagree with me either, but they do anyway!

[Allen66]

I logged on to TP one day and WF was having a pissing contest with someone about something that only mattered to the two of them, it was like a couple of 4 year olds bickering. I tried to post this message "Come on guys, give it a rest, HYOH!!" It never saw the light of day. Haven't been on "It"s My Way Or The Highway's" sight since. TP isn't really a discussion forum it's more of a wingfoot opinion forum. If you don't agree you can't play the game.

[Mountain Dew]

Who is more unpopular....WingNut or Jane Fonda ? hahahaaa

I used the two ATC books (Guide&data) on my 2003 thru-hike. I copied the information in each book in 400 mile sections. Then I had them mailed to me as I needed them. This enabled me to have both books information at once without the weight of both entire books. The other benefit to doing this is that once I got home both books were in mint condition. People I knew that carried wingfoots (stolen) information often asked me to look at my two ATC books.
When I first started the trail I found that few people knew who "Dan Bruce" aka Wing-Nut was, but by the time they had reached Damascus they all knew the real story behind his self promoting ways. He's a nut and a real cancer to the A.T.

[U-BOLT]

He's a nut and a real cancer to the A.T.
This cancer will be spreading up the AT next year.

[Mountain Dew]

I've heard from people who talk to him that he always talks as if he is going to thru-hike again. I DOUBT IT

[Chappy]

Who is more unpopular....WingNut or Jane Fonda ? hahahaaa

1. Jane Fonda
2. WingNut
3. FBI Top Ten
;)

[Jersey Bob]

After reading this thread I just had to check out Trailplace to see for myself. The homepage greeted me with a "Kerry for President" banner at the top and a link at the bottom "Make a Donation". Look and feel definitely commercial... not a friendly site. However, it looks like it packs a lot of information. I moved on to my own tent without going past the homepage.

Maybe next time passing through, if its a cold rainy night, I'll go back and read some of the info.

[Chappy]

After reading this thread I just had to check out Trailplace to see for myself. The homepage greeted me with a "Kerry for President" banner at the top and a link at the bottom "Make a Donation". Look and feel definitely commercial... not a friendly site. However, it looks like it packs a lot of information. I moved on to my own tent without going past the homepage.

Maybe next time passing through, if its a cold rainy night, I'll go back and read some of the info.

So...Kerry has replaced Clark on that site? If Prez Bush should happen to win look out for a rant about America being doomed. :-?

[A-Train]

So...Kerry has replaced Clark on that site? If Prez Bush should happen to win look out for a rant about America being doomed. :-?


And Wingfoot would be absolutely right. Plus it's his site, he can do what he pleases.

[Chappy]

And Wingfoot would be absolutely right. Plus it's his site, he can do what he pleases.

I know it's his site. I know he can do absolutely as he pleases. But I also know he can be wrong.

[A-Train]

I disagree with A LOT of what Wingfoot says and does on his site. One thing I don't disagree with is his passion and activism to get others to vote for anyone other than Bush. I don't intend to turn the discussion to politics, but I find it truely hard to understand how anyone who cares about our wilderness and environmental state in this country can feel satisfied voting for Bush.

[Lone Wolf]

Killing extremist Muslim terrorists is a helluva lot more important now than worrying about a few ***ing trees. Maybe you should serve your country first and worry about the "environment" later.

[torch]

I think the two are related in at least a small way. If we care about the environment, we develop alternative energy sources, thus lowering oil dependancy. As a result, oil prices drop, those terrorists lose their major source of financing and are left in the desert to dig for water.

Certainly there are flaws and such, but I don't think it is such a bad idea to worry about BOTH of those issues.

[Chappy]

I disagree with A LOT of what Wingfoot says and does on his site. One thing I don't disagree with is his passion and activism to get others to vote for anyone other than Bush. I don't intend to turn the discussion to politics, but I find it truely hard to understand how anyone who cares about our wilderness and environmental state in this country can feel satisfied voting for Bush.

Since you find that hard to believe, I find it hard to believe how anyone wouldn't serve in the military so we can continue to have a wilderness. If the terrorists had their way all of the US would be a wilderness with no Americans, no trails, no wildlife...just a bunch of mosques with prayers blaring five times a day. :-?

[A-Train]

HA! First I'm ridiculed for not joining the ATC and a week later the same for not being in the military. Amazing. I'm not gonna fight for something I don't believe in, thank you. I respect anyone who goes to fight for our country, and I'm really not interested in getting into a big debate on this forum, especially knowing the general pro-military opinion on this forum. I think I'll just get my college degree for now. And Wolf, your 18,000 miles on the AT woulda been a bit different if those couple ****in trees weren't there, huh? You really care that little about the environment? Pretty hard to believe from someone who used it and assumingly got so much pleasure from it.

[Ankle Bone]

It is WF's site and he can post his John Kerry banner if he wishes. But he loses all credibility when he blames every single problem in the world on Bush. If someone would post an increase in stubbed toes among thru-hikers, WF would somehow blame it on the policies of the Bush admin. It's pretty comical to read if you can stomach it.

What's not comical is those who don't understand that our military men and women don't get to pick which battles they serve. The tired "I won't fight for what I don't believe in" statement is worn out IMHO and I thank God every night that soldiers are out there risking their lives so I can still freely take a walk in the woods. Sorry to rant, but thanks to all who serve.

Slavery, Communism, Natzism. The only things that war ever solved!

[A-Train]

You're all welcome to believe what you want. No matter what you think about "people like me" will undoubtably not change my mind.

[TedB]

...just a bunch of mosques with prayers blaring five times a day.

Isn't religious hatred what started all of this?

[Chappy]

HA! First I'm ridiculed for not joining the ATC and a week later the same for not being in the military. Amazing. I'm not gonna fight for something I don't believe in, thank you. I respect anyone who goes to fight for our country, and I'm really not interested in getting into a big debate on this forum, especially knowing the general pro-military opinion on this forum. I think I'll just get my college degree for now. And Wolf, your 18,000 miles on the AT woulda been a bit different if those couple ****in trees weren't there, huh? You really care that little about the environment? Pretty hard to believe from someone who used it and assumingly got so much pleasure from it.

ATrain, you come across as a thoughtful young man. You give much to assist new hikers with their questions and I commend you for that since many on this site answer legitimate questions with nonsense. I've benifitted from your comments on many different topics. I ask you to read my comments again...there was no ridicule intended, nor given. Sorry if you took it that way. You seem to be very sensitive today so I'll just believe you've had a hard day studying, going to classes, etc. I simply answered your opinion with my opinion...ridicule was not part of my response. The last thing I want to do is get into a political debate. I left Trailplace because of the Prez Bush rants. I came here because it pretty much stays on topic about the AT. Of course, there are some light moments and I sometimes participate in those, but I'm here to learn about the trail. I plan to thru hike next spring when I retire from the military, so I need to learn everything I can. Friend, take care and study hard.

[Chappy]

Isn't religious hatred what started all of this?

I can look at this two ways:
1) You're stating I practice religious hatred
2) You're asking a question

I choose number 2. My answer: I don't know, you'll have to ask someone else.

[oruoja]

Can't resist to type a few lines regarding A-Train. Guess I should call myself 7 Train as I'm born and bred in Flushing, Queens two decades plus ahead of you. Am proud to have served in the armed forces for 13 years despite also having a college degree and now at the age of almost 43 am going to get back into National Guard and if I'm activated so be it. I never really noticed that whiteblaze membership was pro-military, but now that you mention it I guess the over thirty and especially over 50 crowd has a lot of veteran experience. General politics or academias political correctness liberalism aside, I really do enjoy your posts and hope you like it up in Vermont going to school as I have spent a lot of time up there.

[Blue Jay]

You're all welcome to believe what you want. No matter what you think about "people like me" will undoubtably not change my mind.

I'm with you on this one, and I'm glad you had the courage to bring it up. Every single child we kill in Iraq creates new terrorists for life, some who even used to support us. Remember no children were killed in 9/11, even IF Iraq had anything to do with it. We are clearly ethicly worse than the ones who attacked us. I know it's accidental, but are accidents that keep happening really accidents, NO. OK we got Saddam, now get the **** out now.

[Kozmic Zian]

:cool: Yea.............

[Skeemer]

This is a FORUM and has plenty of interesting contributors. Many have strong feelings and some like to "push their buttons." And, politics is probably the easiest button to push.

On the Trail, and in my journal, I tried to avoid politics and "emotionally charged" topics like abortion, drugs, smoking in shelters and carrying cell phones...he, he. I was out to have a good time.

I look at forums like Whiteblaze and Wingfoot's site a little differently. Here I see a vehicle for people with common interest (AT) speaking out on anything they want. I think that's fine...to speak up on anything you want. It can be both an entertaining and learning experience while providing an avenue for those who wish to "make a statement." At the same time you can avoid the topics you don't like.

My point...the difference is this site welcomes all of us no matter how we feel about Bush. Wingfoot does not...no matter how one feels about Bush they can still have your say here.

A-Train, you show class in most of your posts. Be glad you have Whiteblaze. Here you can HYOH and hear all sides...even Blue Jay's and Lone Wolf's. (No, I won't take a lie detector test)

[Jersey Bob]

This thread is truly amazing. If you read it from beginning to end you'll see a microcosm of life, particularly in the US.

It all started when Troll questioned why his words were being suppressed by another site. Throughout history similar questions were raised with respect to individuals (dictators), religions, governments or whatever.

You might think, "So what, its just a site on the internet". Well this is where we have evolved to. Its discussions such as these that can ultimately shape our future, just as discussions by early Dutch and English settlers shaped what we have today (good or bad).

Somewhere in the middle of the thread Troll said, "I am sorry I started this thread. It is all my fault. Someone slap me. I did not mean to be disrespect towards him. I was just asking a question."

Well, ask away and never, NEVER!, apologize for questioning something that does not look or feel right.

Enjoy the hike, while you can.
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[attroll]

It has come to my attention that we have dwelled on this subject of TrailPlace and Wingfoot long enough. We do not want to this to turn into a Trailplace/Wingfoor bashing site. We have so much other productive things to talk about then bashing his site. I think everyone should know by now what his site is about after reading the comments of others.

I have decided to close this thread so we can talk about more upbeat and productive things.