Faulty Boots on Trail - Manufacturer Service?

[Rocketman]

I bought some Targhee II Keen boots at NOC in North Carolina. By Gatlinburg TN, the sole has started to delaminate.

So far, I have been unable to reach Keen for their response to remedy this defect for a Thru-Hiker on a schedule (a slow thru-hiker at that).

What kind of service for faulty boots can we expect on the AT trail?

It currently looks like the best solution for me is to have NOC handle the refund situation with Keen. They offered to do that for me, if I send them the boots.

Has anybody got any excellent experience to share?

Has anybody got horror stories to share?

Jim Buch, Grand Prix Motel, Gatlinburg TN for the day-- or longer.

[Lyle]

Just a note. Many years ago a friend and I each had a problem with our Kelty packs while we were on a trip. We called cusomer service, who said they were covered under warrenty, and that we should just send them the packs, and they would repair or replace. We explained that we were using them every day, and this wasn't a workable arrangement. They appologized that there was nothing else they could do.

Another hiker suggested we call Kelty back, but this time ask for their Public Relations department. We did, this time new packbags were sent to us immediately, we then returned the old bags in the same box. About a month later, we also received our old bags back, after they were repaired.

This just illustrates that who you talk to is all important in getting a company to alter their normal policy.

Lyle

[Ender]

My first pair of boots also had a problem. I had them replaced by going through an outfitter. That's probably the best way to do it. The manufacturers will trust an outfitter to make a more fair judgement call on the boots as to whether or not the problem falls under warantee. Also, the outfitter will be able to give you a new pair immediatly, rather than having to wait for the boots to be mailed to you.

[Appalachian Tater]

Not exactly a horror story, but maybe a P.I.A. story:

Leki will replace defective parts (but not worn-out tips, unless you're at Trail Days--more on this later.) I had the bottom section of their top-of the line model split along the seam. It shouldn't have, considering what they cost.

Their telephone does not take messages, although it SEEMS to (or else they don't listen to them?) and it doesn't even give their business hours or time zone. So you have to hit town, during what you guess might be their business hours, during the week, to ask for parts in the first place. I thought I had left a message from Daleville and showed up in Duncannon expecting parts at the post office. Nothing.

The only way around this is that outfitters are authorized to do warranty repairs for them. In Daleville, the very friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful outfitter made every effort to replace the part but just didn't have a piece to fit available as it was for a very recent model they hadn't started carrying yet.

Eventually, I was able to talk to the Leki Lady on the phone. Nope, no record of any request. Then she wouldn't send them to where I was going to be in five days, or six: they specifically ask where you're going to be in ten days. No exceptions. So even after reaching a telephone, during the day, during the week, you have to go without functional poles for at least another ten days. (Do they only mail once a week?) And although she wasn't rude, it was clear she was doing me a favor by replacing their defective product. A "sorry you're having a problem with our product" would have helped immensely at this point.

Additionally, in Harpers Ferry, the outfitter refused to replace broken pieces with identical parts even though they were on hand, so the warranty service was a stop-gap measure at best. (Yes, I spent a good deal on equipment there anyway.) This may sound ungrateful, because they did get my hiking pole back in functional order, and I didn't buy them there. But does Leki not properly support their retailers in doing warranty repairs or was the salesman just trying to use up old parts first?

As far as the tips, Leki changed their design and construction in 2006 because the carbide point would fall into the plastic base when it became moderately worn. Even though they acknowledged a faulty design, they still would not replace prematurely useless tips, despite crowing about how durable they are every chance they get. Granted, the new design is significantly better. But should I have had to pay for a new set to replace a flawed product?

What chaps me is that I know of at least one $30 pair of red hiking poles from Wal-Mart have made a complete thru-hike without giving any grief. I also understand that Leki gives excellent service at Trail Days, replacing tips even on other brands of poles. To me that's a bit like flashing a wad of ones with a $50 on the outside of the roll.

[Appalachian Tater]

Grand Prix Motel, Gatlinburg TN for the day-- or longer.

Oh yeah, watch out, that place is a vortex, especially if they still have the stay two nights, get one free deal. And Sunday night is still free if you're there on Saturday night? Definitely a hiker vortex.

[sixhusbands]

... and on the eighth there was made duct tape...

It will get you by until you can reach an outfitter that carries your brand. Let them know that there is a problem with their product and that you are sharing this information on a public website. You might be surprised as to how quick the situation gets attention.

[Footslogger]

Have never owned Montrail boots but hiked in a pair (several actually) of their trail shoes (Javas) in 2003. Got to Bear Mtn, NY and found that the outsole had totally cracked across the toe line of the shoe. Called Montrail from Bear Mtn and explained the situation. Their customer service rep explained that the shoe itself was not designed for thru-hiking however he agreed that this was premature catastrophic failure of the shoe. All he asked was that I send him back the shoe so that they could inspect it. Did that and they sent a brand new pair to my house, which my wife forwarded to me in CT.

Liked that shoe so much and was so impressed with the service that after my hike I bought a few more pair, while you could still get them (seems like every shoe/boot I've ever liked went out of production after a year or two) and stuck them in the closet. One more pair in a box and then I have to find something new.

'Slogger

[LostInSpace]

Early in 2006 (I think that is the timeframe) Columbia Sportswear bought out Montrail, all except the mountaineering/heavy duty boots line. I wonder how long good customer service will continue?

[Rocketman]

I contacted Keen about the delaminated shoes (about 50 trail miles from point of purchase).

Initially, they wanted me to deal with the dealer as they are MANUFACTURERS and don't deal directly with customers.

Then came the offer to send the shoes back to Keen directly after they checked stock and verified that there were replacement shoes which would fit - being the same size and model that I bought.

After some emphasis of how expensive it was for a through hiker to stay put on the trail (hiking without boots is more painful than hiking with delaminated boots).... it was offered that they would overnight the shoes, after inspection for actual defect, to me. It was emphasized that they would spend $30 to express ship them.

I countered that at $50 per day plus food plus high express shipping costs from here to Keen -- that it was pretty much a losing proposition. It would cost me more to stay put than the entire cost of the shoes.

I emphasized that the delay could prohibit me from making the complete trip in one season - since I am somewhat slow.

The reply was that this was all that they could do, and they were extending themselves to do this much. Dealers were the preferred way to work the manufacturing defect problem.

SOLUTION

I am returning the shoes to a wonderfully cooperative retailer at the Nantahala Outdoor Center NOC. They will refund me the purchase and negotiate whatever needs be done with Keen.

I have bought replacement boots, Garamont Flash, which feature a big toebox and have more support for hiking than the former Keen boots.

I will never buy Keen boots again - because of this service issue.

Mr. Keen should be ashamed that the service of his firm so poorly matches the good design of a well made pair of his shoes.

Manufacturers who don't actually directly help people stranded by a defect in their product probably deserve all the bad press and public relations they get.

I did inform Nina of Keen Co. that I had already started a discussion here on the topic, and would report whatever had transpired.

Keen does not have their own public relations department inhouse. That job is contracted out.

It figures.

Jim Buch, Still Stranded at Grand Prix Motel, Gatlinburg TN - leaving tomorrow.
:datz

[Nightwalker]

Spend a little money on some Lowas next time and you won't have to worry. :)

Cheap shot, I guess. Sorry.

[MOWGLI]

I think that Keen's offer was reasonable. Keen has no special obligation to cater to thru-hikers. I also have not heard many stories like this about Keen's products.

I'm glad to hear that NOC hooked you up. I like happy endings.

FYI, I had similar problems with Garmont boots in 2000, and it took 4-5 days before I could finally resolve the issue and get a replacement pair for free. Thankfully, I was at home in New York at the time. The trail was just a few miles from my home, so I had a place to stay.

[QHShowoman]

Sorry I didn't see this post sooner. I work for REI and Keen is generally very "hands off" about customer returns. Basically, you just bring them to any authorized Keen dealer for an exchange and Keen works out reimbursement with the dealer if it is a true defect.

At REI, we get a LOT of Keen footwear returned to us -- usually its because the sole starts to pull away from the shoe. I would recommend Keen for casual wear, but not serious hiking.

[Peaks]

Spend a little money on some Lowas next time and you won't have to worry. :)

Cheap shot, I guess. Sorry.

The problem that I have had with Lowas in the past is that the sole on the toe falls apart/ delaminates. Have they fixed that problem? (I'm currently using Garmont).

[Pacific Tortuga]

I just sent home my Garmont Flash boots for the same reason. Soul

seperation problems. REI took them back and refunded my money. I loved

the boots but can't see buying a pair every two months. With my knee

bruise, buying new boots may not be a problem ..... I would enjoy dealing

with any gear malfunctions if it meant I can continue to hike. Just how I'm

looking at Trail life right now.

[Rocketman]

Sorry I didn't see this post sooner. I work for REI and Keen is generally very "hands off" about customer returns. Basically, you just bring them to any authorized Keen dealer for an exchange and Keen works out reimbursement with the dealer if it is a true defect.

At REI, we get a LOT of Keen footwear returned to us -- usually its because the sole starts to pull away from the shoe. I would recommend Keen for casual wear, but not serious hiking.

The retailer, NOC Outfitter, told me that in the last few months, they have had three (3) Keen boots returned for sole delamination problems.

I suggest that this confirms you advice above to not recommend Keen boots for serious hiking.

Perhaps more boot sales people should know these facts.

Thank you for your reply.

Jim "Three Day" still hiking, and now out of the Smokies.

Jim Buch

[Choreboy]

We would never not fix a pair of Leki Sticks for Free if we have the parts. We are not real sure what the facts are with this problem.
Choreboy
The Outfitter at Harpers Ferry
Not exactly a horror story, but maybe a P.I.A. story:

Leki will replace defective parts (but not worn-out tips, unless you're at Trail Days--more on this later.) I had the bottom section of their top-of the line model split along the seam. It shouldn't have, considering what they cost.

Their telephone does not take messages, although it SEEMS to (or else they don't listen to them?) and it doesn't even give their business hours or time zone. So you have to hit town, during what you guess might be their business hours, during the week, to ask for parts in the first place. I thought I had left a message from Daleville and showed up in Duncannon expecting parts at the post office. Nothing.

The only way around this is that outfitters are authorized to do warranty repairs for them. In Daleville, the very friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful outfitter made every effort to replace the part but just didn't have a piece to fit available as it was for a very recent model they hadn't started carrying yet.

Eventually, I was able to talk to the Leki Lady on the phone. Nope, no record of any request. Then she wouldn't send them to where I was going to be in five days, or six: they specifically ask where you're going to be in ten days. No exceptions. So even after reaching a telephone, during the day, during the week, you have to go without functional poles for at least another ten days. (Do they only mail once a week?) And although she wasn't rude, it was clear she was doing me a favor by replacing their defective product. A "sorry you're having a problem with our product" would have helped immensely at this point.

Additionally, in Harpers Ferry, the outfitter refused to replace broken pieces with identical parts even though they were on hand, so the warranty service was a stop-gap measure at best. (Yes, I spent a good deal on equipment there anyway.) This may sound ungrateful, because they did get my hiking pole back in functional order, and I didn't buy them there. But does Leki not properly support their retailers in doing warranty repairs or was the salesman just trying to use up old parts first?

As far as the tips, Leki changed their design and construction in 2006 because the carbide point would fall into the plastic base when it became moderately worn. Even though they acknowledged a faulty design, they still would not replace prematurely useless tips, despite crowing about how durable they are every chance they get. Granted, the new design is significantly better. But should I have had to pay for a new set to replace a flawed product?

What chaps me is that I know of at least one $30 pair of red hiking poles from Wal-Mart have made a complete thru-hike without giving any grief. I also understand that Leki gives excellent service at Trail Days, replacing tips even on other brands of poles. To me that's a bit like flashing a wad of ones with a $50 on the outside of the roll.

[Bare Bear]

During my 2006 thru hike: I had $130 NORTHFACE boots barely broken in that made it 75 miles on the AT before starting to separate at the tips. Twice glued to no lasting effect I changed them at Franklin for a $60 credit towards another $130 pair. Those lasted all of another 75 miles before the exact same thing began. Again I glued them together as a stop gap and tried another retailer in Va who told me that "These are not for trail use" so I guess Northface ads and the printed matter with them and the ads in the store are wrong. I pointed out that at $130 the boot had lasted less than $1 per mile and the retailer said they were "not designed to last foreever." I threw them away at Bear Mountain NY when I got some old boots form home. Later bought Merrels Continuum in Kent, CT and finished fine, and still wear them nearly everyday now instead of tennis shoes. I will never buy any Northface product ever and strongly warn hikers that they do not stand behind their product.

[Bare Bear]

BY the Way HEY TATER !

[Jack Tarlin]

Lemme get this straight....

You get in touch with the manufacturer, who offers to replace your boots, even volunteering to spend 30 bucks to overnight them to you.

And this wasn't good enough for you?

Um......did you expect them to pay for your hotel costs and some steak dinners in Gatlinburg for three days? Really, what on earth did you want from them?

Seems to me that instead of spending so much time and effort bad-mouthing the folks who tried to help you and their company, you could've easily done a field repair in Gatlinburg that could have allowed you to proceed to Standing Bear Farm or Hot Springs......where you would have found your new boots waiting for you on your arrival, thanks to the company's kind offer to ship 'em out as soon as feasible.

This shouldn't have been too difficult for you; after all you said that the boots were STARTING to delaminate, and were by no means falling apart. A little effort with Barge Cement or ShooGoo, and some duct tape, and you'd have been fine for a few days hiking or longer.

Also, you acknowledge that you're a slow hiker....and I see you're only just getting out of the Smokies on the 25th of May. I hate to put it to you so bluntly, but if you're in danger of not completing the trip in one season, this is NOT Keen's fault, it's yours; telling the Keen folks that their lack of assistance was threatening your chances of completing your hike wasn't entirely fair. I was telling folks that are here in Damascus today that they'd better step on it or think about taking less time off if they wanted to finish by October. And you are evidently two to three weeks behind THEM.

Unless you speed up, skip a section of the Trail, or flip-flop and do some sections of the Trail after 15 October, you probably will NOT finish your trip in one season.

And the fault isn't Keen's.

Oh, and in regard to the Outfitters at Harpers Ferry, I know that their policy on Lekis is help the hikers however they can, and Tater does indeed say that they managed to fix his poles. But in nearly every case, outfitters have spare pole parts (tips, baskets, etc.) FOR SALE to those who want them.......repairs done for free (i.e. generally with spare parts on hand, some supplied by Leki, some supplied gratis by the individual outfitter) are generally NOT done with parts taken right off the sale racks. Customers that have a problem with this policy should bring it up with Leki and not complain about the store or its employees, who are under no obligation whatsoever to simply take an item that's for sale off the rack and simply hand it over, gratis, to the customer. When stores do this, they lose money. In general, customers who are having serious gear problems (i.e. they need something refunded or replaced) should first deal with the manufacturer, or, if possible, with the store where they purchased the items (which is why you should save your receipts for major-ticket items). But no Outfitter is obligated to simply hand you something right off the wall merely because they happen to have the item present. The vast majority of Trail outfitters do everything they can to help hikers, especially long-distance hikers, and the shop in Harpers Ferry is no exception.

[Lone Wolf]

thru-hikers are soooo f cking special:rolleyes:

[Johnny Thunder]

In my younger years I was an Inline Skating instructor at an "Action Sports" camp in Central PA. At the time the industries servicing our niche market relied heavily on print and web advertisement, expert boutique-sales, and word of mouth marketing to push their products. Sound familiar?

Most companies would literally throw goods at us. I still have unworn T-Shirts and unused wheels. On a weekly basis we would interact with over 200 new campers who would hang at our every word in regards to how to skate. That could range from trick advice, strength and conditioning, and definitely what to buy. By keeping us happy the skate/wheel/clothing companies kept nice words on our lips and increased their visibility to the larger market of Inline Skaters.

I can remember one case where I had a defective skate frame...called the manufacturer...they called the reigning X-Games champion enroute to camp who HAND DELIVERED a replacement set.

Now, I know that this is a solution in hyperbole. Note that I'm not trying to compare Thru hikers to semi-professional athletes. Just asserting that their expertise and visibility might be similar in their respective niche markets.

It just seems like the opporunity cost of lost sales for every person who encounters a product-disgruntled thru or reads threads like this greatly outweighs the cost of immediately replacing the defective product. Send the replacement, review the defect after the fact.

Also, marketers hold that gaining a new customer costs 7 times more than retaining an old one.

Maybe some of the things that the poster said about delays and their schedules might have been inflated. But, who hasn't overstated a point to get something out of the customer service abyss?

Johnny

[Jack Tarlin]

Who hasn't over-stated a point in order to get more outta customer service?

Um, actually very few people HAVEN'T done that, and it's becoming a problem.

And companies are getting wise to it, are getting tired of thru-hikers screwing them, bulls***ting them, threatening to trash them on the internet or in Trail registers, etc.

In short, lots of gear companies have gotten STRICTER about warranty/repair issues than they used to be, and people over-stating points, exaggerating problems, making excessive demands or threats is precisely why these companies are getting stricter about their policies.

The best way to get satisfaction when dealing with gear Customer Service reps is to be calm, polite, friendly, and co-operative. Be willing to discuss the problem rationally; be willing to listen; be willing to compromise. You'll get further, quicker, with a kind word and a smile than with anger, tantrums, or threats. Oh, and don't lie to these people, either. There's generally no need for it.......they really are there to help you, and if you give 'em half a chance, that's exactly what they'll do. But over-stating or exaggerating your problem is not the way to go.....even if you might think that everyone does it.

They don't.

[QHShowoman]

The best way to get satisfaction when dealing with gear Customer Service reps is to be calm, polite, friendly, and co-operative. Be willing to discuss the problem rationally; be willing to listen; be willing to compromise. You'll get further, quicker, with a kind word and a smile than with anger, tantrums, or threats. Oh, and don't lie to these people, either. There's generally no need for it.......they really are there to help you, and if you give 'em half a chance, that's exactly what they'll do. But over-stating or exaggerating your problem is not the way to go.....even if you might think that everyone does it.

They don't.

Amen to that. One of the most striking things about working in customer service at REI is how many customers will out and out lie to my face, thinking it will guarantee a return. Here's a helpful hint -- I do this everyday, I know when you're lying and I am less likely to help you out if you are. We'll take almost anything back -- or at least provide you with an option or compromise -- there's no need to lie.

[Johnny Thunder]

Who hasn't over-stated a point in order to get more outta customer service?

Um, actually very few people HAVEN'T done that, and it's becoming a problem.

And companies are getting wise to it, are getting tired of thru-hikers screwing them, bulls***ting them, threatening to trash them on the internet or in Trail registers, etc.

In short, lots of gear companies have gotten STRICTER about warranty/repair issues than they used to be, and people over-stating points, exaggerating problems, making excessive demands or threats is precisely why these companies are getting stricter about their policies.

The best way to get satisfaction when dealing with gear Customer Service reps is to be calm, polite, friendly, and co-operative. Be willing to discuss the problem rationally; be willing to listen; be willing to compromise. You'll get further, quicker, with a kind word and a smile than with anger, tantrums, or threats. Oh, and don't lie to these people, either. There's generally no need for it.......they really are there to help you, and if you give 'em half a chance, that's exactly what they'll do. But over-stating or exaggerating your problem is not the way to go.....even if you might think that everyone does it.

They don't.


Jack,

You're totally right...definitely in the last point about remaining calm. I think that when I approached the skate company for a replacement I used a lot of the dude-no-worries-no-problem's that pepper my everyday mumblings. They might have been willing to replace it quickly too and my mentioning my visibility tipped the scale.

When I mentioned "overstating" issues it wasn't to open the flood gates for other hikers to do it. If this is such a problem gear manufacturers should devise a more streamlined way to replace DEFECTIVE gear while maintaining a position as not to be railroaded by opportunists. Maybe ask for credit card information when replacing products. Tell the customer that if the item is found to be defective the shipping and exchange is free of charge. If not, they will be billed for the full cost of shipping and goods.

This is how it works when dealing directly with cell phone manufacturers (read: not cell phone insurers). Two things happen here...It deters people lying about broken phones because the penalty is greater than just purchasing a replacement on their own and it forces the customer to meet the manufacturer half way until resolution. Defective product...everyone has some skin in this game.

Gear fails and people should always prepare for the worst. But, if each gear manufacturer intends to delay/review replacement in the fashion Keen described they are willingly putting themselves at risk of angering their more visible and vocal customers.

[Tractor]

Gear makers and outfitters have to make a living. Products made and sold should live up to realistic expectations. Buyers should be honest and describe their issues in a polite and objective manner. Early field failure of gear with piss poor responses from makers and/or outfitters brings grief to all involved.

So. I will not judge this particular incident as I do not know the boots in question, the boot wearer or the boot maker. It does seem, however, that a solution (or solutions) was offered and declined.

In general, though, I gradually find less & less of a problem with more & more "items" that are being referred to as: "it's toast", "it's busted", it's broken", "I can't use this anymore.", etc........ One person's "1-to-10" rating for an item might be a "3" while my opinion of the same item might be it's a "7". It's all relative.

Just my thought but if I was hiking thru and I thought my new $130 boots were shot after just a hundred miles or so I would go along with an offer to accept a new pair with the stipulation that I had to pay the shipping & replacement fee if the maker determined the fault was mine or there was no serious defect to begin with. I might just take a picture or two before letting them go.....just in case.

By the way, I have a pair of boots that began to delaminate, maybe less than 100 miles after purchase. They are my favorite pair (ECCO) with more than 400 miles more on them. The "defect" has nothing to do with function, just looks........ I don't want a new pair.

[smokymtnsteve]

Oh yes..one must always give homage to coporate amerika,,,kneel at thier altar and make sure not to offend them, regardless of the crap they sold U at whatever price,,,

[Rocketman]

The solution that worked was for the seller at NOC to reimburse me for the boots. They did that promptly. I was able to buy new boots that same day and continue on without waiting several days. Of course, I bought different boots from a different manufacturer.

The Happy Hiker in Gatlinburg was an authorized Keen dealer, and managed to convince me that they could do nothing towards refunding me the purchase price then, or ever. The Happy Hiker is on the negative list of quite a few hikers I have met.

My slowless in hiking hasn't got a damn thing to do with how to treat a customer, and is a subject on whicj you should have kept your moth shut, except for the opportunity to make negative comments. Thank you for your negativity.