View Full Version : Soap?
I was told by a chemistry teacher, long ago, that the primary function of soaps is to greatly reduce the adhesive, or “magnetic,” properties of grease or oil (think perspiration). After this, water washes the remaining dirt off quite readily.
A friend read a book, some years ago, which compared the ingredients in products. My friend advised, floor cleaner is virtually the same as hair shampoo. Perfumes, coloring agents, and of course price differ; a large volume of floor cleaner being much cheaper, per ounce, than hair shampoo.
My wife uses various “Foaming Cream Cleansers” to clean her face instead of using soap. They don’t dry the skin as much, perhaps rinsing off more completely.
These cleansers are quite concentrated. A very small amount will lather up and clean your face AND shampoo your hair. NOTE: Oil of Olay cleanser is much drier than the L’Oreal cleanser; hair actually looks as if it’s been shampooed recently.
The cleansers require much less volume to get the job done than Dr Bronner's Soap, and I suspect the cleansers weigh less per unit of volume. I need to get a full container and weigh it before use. The containers provide the volume of the contents, fluid ounces, not the weight.
Has anyone tried some one thing for all their cleaning; skin, hair, clothes, pots and pans?
Has anyone tried some one thing for all their cleaning; skin, hair, clothes, pots and pans?
I use the green camp soap for everything.
Brrrb Oregon
05-20-2007, 16:22
I was told by a chemistry teacher, long ago, that the primary function of soaps is to greatly reduce the adhesive, or “magnetic,” properties of grease or oil (think perspiration). After this, water washes the remaining dirt off quite readily.
A friend read a book, some years ago, which compared the ingredients in products. My friend advised, floor cleaner is virtually the same as hair shampoo. Perfumes, coloring agents, and of course price differ; a large volume of floor cleaner being much cheaper, per ounce, than hair shampoo.
Well, sort of. Saying that floor cleaner and shampoo are essentially the same thing is a little like saying that fingernail polish and autobody paint are essentially the same thing. It is true, in a way, and yet the two are obviously not fully interchangeable. I could go into the chemistry, but let's just say that the cleaning functions of modern cleaners are accomplished by very particular mixtures of surfactants, alcohols, simples bases, chelating agents....well, you can see where I'm going. Let's leave it at that.
My wife uses various “Foaming Cream Cleansers” to clean her face instead of using soap. They don’t dry the skin as much, perhaps rinsing off more completely.
These cleansers are quite concentrated. A very small amount will lather up and clean your face AND shampoo your hair. NOTE: Oil of Olay cleanser is much drier than the L’Oreal cleanser; hair actually looks as if it’s been shampooed recently.
The cleansers require much less volume to get the job done than Dr Bronner's Soap, and I suspect the cleansers weigh less per unit of volume. I need to get a full container and weigh it before use. The containers provide the volume of the contents, fluid ounces, not the weight.
Has anyone tried some one thing for all their cleaning; skin, hair, clothes, pots and pans?
I would be concerned that facial cleansers might leave a residue on dishes. They are not meant to come off completely, and they are not meant to disrupt cell walls of living organisms: a good thing on your face, but maybe a little gentle on any E. coli on your dishes. (Since raw meat is rather rare on the trail, this may not be quite the big thing for a meat-eater at home.)
I'd also advocate in favor of a camp soap, as the previous poster did, as well as learning the minimum amount of soap is needed for each cleaning job. If I'm not wearing make-up, for instance, I never use soap of any kind on my face, except the shampoo that dribbles across it, I suppose. If that didn't cut it as far as getting that sunscreen residue off, I'd use only a tiny amount of camp soap, and that diluted by a lot, or I'd expect my face to feel dry. (One of the best hair conditioners I know is to just shampooing a day....nature does know what it's about.)
Using less soap is not just frugal and not just good for the environment. It also lessens the amount of water and effort required to get the soap itself off. Also, warm or hot soapy water will lift away more grease than cold water, since the warmth alone will physically loosen much of the grease that into the liquid phase, while cold might solidify greases to surfaces.
Appalachian Tater
05-20-2007, 16:32
I use basic soap (Dr. Bronner's) or detergent (Tide Free powder) for cleaning almost everything, plus vinegar or generic bleach for sterilizing and whitening. A couple of tablespoons of Tide and a spray of vinegar will do a better job at cleaning the bathtub, sink, or toilet than any of the bathroom cleaners. Vinegar, water, and a teaspoon of Tide makes a better window cleaner than any of the name brands. You really don't need all of the various cleaning products that are marketed--most of them are just variations on soap or detergent anyway.
Dr. Bronner's or Camp Suds is all you nee when hiking.
Brrrb Oregon
05-20-2007, 17:22
I use basic soap (Dr. Bronner's) or detergent (Tide Free powder) for cleaning almost everything, plus vinegar or generic bleach for sterilizing and whitening. A couple of tablespoons of Tide and a spray of vinegar will do a better job at cleaning the bathtub, sink, or toilet than any of the bathroom cleaners. Vinegar, water, and a teaspoon of Tide makes a better window cleaner than any of the name brands. You really don't need all of the various cleaning products that are marketed--most of them are just variations on soap or detergent anyway.
Dr. Bronner's or Camp Suds is all you nee when hiking.
I'd add isopropanol to the list at home, but you can get nice results with very simple cleaners, particularly if you're not intending to wash your hair or wash makeup from your face. You also need much less cleaning strength at home if you just stay on top of the job.
One of the best hair conditioners I know is to just shampooing a day....nature does know what it's about.
I meant that SKIPPING shampooing for a day is good for the hair. You can't beat natural oils for that natural look.
Appalachian Tater
05-20-2007, 18:11
I'd add isopropanol to the list at home, but you can get nice results with very simple cleaners, particularly if you're not intending to wash your hair or wash makeup from your face. You also need much less cleaning strength at home if you just stay on top of the job.
I don't have a lot of hair and the Bronner's works great on it. I also shave with it.
Brrrb Oregon
05-20-2007, 20:19
I don't have a lot of hair and the Bronner's works great on it. I also shave with it.
Do you know if Bronner's biodegrades any faster or slower than any of the others?
fiddlehead
05-20-2007, 21:01
i tried Bonners and found it difficult to get any lather out of it. It seemed i had to use too much. So for the weight factor, i never carried it backpacking. I have carried a small bar of soap. (you know, the one that you don't know what to do with cause it gets too small to keep using and you end up throwing away). And wait till town to shampoo or shave.
Out west you don't have the problem of feeling dirty as much.
On the CDT and PCT, we swam many days and washed our socks, shorts and shirts out almost daily. (without soap) You don't have that luxury on the AT simply because the stuff never seems to dry back east.
I was told by a chemistry teacher, long ago, that the primary function of soaps is to greatly reduce the adhesive, or “magnetic,” properties of grease or oil (think perspiration). After this, water washes the remaining dirt off quite readily.
A friend read a book, some years ago, which compared the ingredients in products. My friend advised, floor cleaner is virtually the same as hair shampoo. Perfumes, coloring agents, and of course price differ; a large volume of floor cleaner being much cheaper, per ounce, than hair shampoo.
My wife uses various “Foaming Cream Cleansers” to clean her face instead of using soap. They don’t dry the skin as much, perhaps rinsing off more completely.
These cleansers are quite concentrated. A very small amount will lather up and clean your face AND shampoo your hair. NOTE: Oil of Olay cleanser is much drier than the L’Oreal cleanser; hair actually looks as if it’s been shampooed recently.
The cleansers require much less volume to get the job done than Dr Bronner's Soap, and I suspect the cleansers weigh less per unit of volume. I need to get a full container and weigh it before use. The containers provide the volume of the contents, fluid ounces, not the weight.
Has anyone tried some one thing for all their cleaning; skin, hair, clothes, pots and pans?
Yup. I carry a sliver of Ivory soap. Sometimes a motel size bar. Most often a chunk carved from a big bar.
But your friend was right. Consumer Reports a few years ago did a test of shampoos. The magazine included a blind test of Ivory dishwashing detergent. It ranked in the middle of the pack among shampoos.
Weary
Appalachian Tater
05-20-2007, 21:48
Bronner's is scented, diluted Castile soap, basically just vegetable oils and lye. It's about as biodegradable as any soap can be. Even though it is relatively harmless to the environment, it still shouldn't go into water sources.
It does not foam in the same way that a lot of soaps and detergents do, many of which have added ingredients that cause them to foam, and you just have to accept that. The hardness of your water will influence the foaming. You also have to dilute Dr. Bronners. A lot of people forget this.
It is also very alkaline, and you may be used to more pH-neutral soaps.
Many soaps, such as Ivory bars, are made of animal fat instead of vegetable fat. I'm not a vegetarian by any means, but slathering animal fat all over my body is a little creepy.
Camp Suds is basically the same as Dr. Bronner's. Any plain Castile soap will do.
CaptChaos
05-22-2007, 08:40
CaptChaos here gang:
I would warn you not to use household cleaning agents for your personal body use as my guess is that it has not been tested on the human body.
A couple of years ago I worked for a company where we made soap and anti-bact soaps. I can tell you that once you get into a product that is going to be used on the body that the FDA gets involved. As I learned the closer a product gets to the mouth that more regs that kick in to make sure that it is safe. If you are going to ingest anything then you go all the way with the FDA on that kind of product.
I would take the time to point out that what I learned in the job back then keeps me from using anti-bact soap on a regular basis today. Anti-Bact soap has a chemical that is regulated by the FDA and it is absorbed into the skin very quickly and this is what kills bugs on your body. You might wash off the soap but this chemical is still in your skin and it contines to work for a while.
I would use normal soap for day to day use and if I was sick or had someone in the home that was sick I would use the Anti-Bact until they were better then I would put it away until next time. I would not use Anti-Bact soap on a daily basis to wash in the shower as it can enter the body and slow you thyroid down (in women) and some believe that you can gain weight if you slow your thyroid down.
My two cents worth.
Capt Chaos
Bronner's is scented, diluted Castile soap, basically just vegetable oils and lye. It's about as biodegradable as any soap can be. Even though it is relatively harmless to the environment, it still shouldn't go into water sources.
It does not foam in the same way that a lot of soaps and detergents do, many of which have added ingredients that cause them to foam, and you just have to accept that. The hardness of your water will influence the foaming. You also have to dilute Dr. Bronners. A lot of people forget this.
It is also very alkaline, and you may be used to more pH-neutral soaps.
Many soaps, such as Ivory bars, are made of animal fat instead of vegetable fat. I'm not a vegetarian by any means, but slathering animal fat all over my body is a little creepy.
Camp Suds is basically the same as Dr. Bronner's. Any plain Castile soap will do.
My grandmother, who after their mother had died raised four boys on a farm without electricity, used to make her own soap from scrap animal fats and lye. The whole extended family saved fat for her and in return got gifts of a few bars.
It seemed like perfectly good soap to me while I was growing up. I even made a batch myself many years ago. Like Ivory, it floated. Probably because the lye needs to be mixed well with the fat, and I whipped it too a froth, adding a bit of air to the final product.
If I used enough fatty meat to generate a decent supply of fat, I'd try making another batch. It's about the ultimate in recycling. I'd be a trail legend. The only hiker with homemade Dr. Bronners. I have a patch of wild peppermint so it could even smell like the good doc.
I'm not a vegetarian, either, but if we are going to kill animals to eat, in fairness to the creatures we should use as much as possible of their remains.
Just think. Have a nice standing rib roast next weekend and use the fat from last week's roast to wash the dishes.
Weary
Brrrb Oregon
05-22-2007, 20:17
i tried Bonners and found it difficult to get any lather out of it. It seemed i had to use too much. So for the weight factor, i never carried it backpacking. I have carried a small bar of soap. (you know, the one that you don't know what to do with cause it gets too small to keep using and you end up throwing away). And wait till town to shampoo or shave.
Sometimes, cleaning goes better without so much soap that you get bubbles. EDTA, an chemical first patented in 1935, is an ingredient added to many detergents and shampoos. It binds metal ions like Ca2+ and Mg2+ and keeps them from inhibiting the formation of bubbles. In other words, there were parts of the world with super-hard water that lived and cleaned essentially without bubbles for eons.
EDTA also keeps metal ions from catalyzing all sorts of reactions, especially oxidation reactions, so it is widely used for all sorts of applications. Its environmental impact has not been fully investigated, but it is suspected that it may make heavy metals more soluble, and therefore more mobile in ground water, streams, etc. It isn't horribly toxic to humans or anything--it is used in chelation therapy for lead poisoning--but its use is so widespread and the molecule is so durable that this gap in knowledge has become a cause for concern.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/qn/v26n6/a20v26n6.pdf
Out west you don't have the problem of feeling dirty as much.
On the CDT and PCT, we swam many days and washed our socks, shorts and shirts out almost daily. (without soap) You don't have that luxury on the AT simply because the stuff never seems to dry back east.
Humidity. I can take dirt, heat, cold, poor food, bad coffee, sore feet, and any number of other hazards of the trail, but until I get acclimated, I wilt in humidity.
This was probably the hardest thing about the summer I spent in Delaware. It felt like being in a bathroom without a fan, after somebody had just taken a shower. It didn't even cool off when it rained, which was very weird to me.
I just looked at it as what you have to put up with in order to have fireflies. (Now those are cool.)
CaptChaos here gang:
I would warn you not to use household cleaning agents for your personal body use as my guess is that it has not been tested on the human body.
A couple of years ago I worked for a company where we made soap and anti-bact soaps. I can tell you that once you get into a product that is going to be used on the body that the FDA gets involved. As I learned the closer a product gets to the mouth that more regs that kick in to make sure that it is safe. If you are going to ingest anything then you go all the way with the FDA on that kind of product.
I would take the time to point out that what I learned in the job back then keeps me from using anti-bact soap on a regular basis today. Anti-Bact soap has a chemical that is regulated by the FDA and it is absorbed into the skin very quickly and this is what kills bugs on your body. You might wash off the soap but this chemical is still in your skin and it contines to work for a while.
I would use normal soap for day to day use and if I was sick or had someone in the home that was sick I would use the Anti-Bact until they were better then I would put it away until next time. I would not use Anti-Bact soap on a daily basis to wash in the shower as it can enter the body and slow you thyroid down (in women) and some believe that you can gain weight if you slow your thyroid down.
My two cents worth.
Capt Chaos
The CDC says that anti-bacterial soaps aren't necessary for hygiene. It should be pointed out that if you're going to use them, though, the active ingredient should be given at least two minutes on the surface to be effective.
What is important is that whatever soap you use spends some quality time with your hands. You should be able to do a leisurely rendition of "Twinkle, twinkle, little star" (aka the alphabet song) in the time it takes to soap up and rinse your hands.
My grandmother, who after their mother had died raised four boys on a farm without electricity, used to make her own soap from scrap animal fats and lye. The whole extended family saved fat for her and in return got gifts of a few bars....
If I used enough fatty meat to generate a decent supply of fat, I'd try making another batch. It's about the ultimate in recycling. I'd be a trail legend. The only hiker with homemade Dr. Bronners. I have a patch of wild peppermint so it could even smell like the good doc.
I'm not a vegetarian, either, but if we are going to kill animals to eat, in fairness to the creatures we should use as much as possible of their remains.
I like the idea of not wasting. I have an old copy of some Boston cookbook from 1890 that has a method, but how do you make soap from tallow at your house? Maybe I'll save beef fat scraps in my freezer until I have enough for a batch.
Still, I'm mostly interested in an all-purpose soap, appropriate for both dishes and skin, that is not so chemically durable that it is going to get into the ground water and mess up the streams. Do the old formulations meet those criteria?
As for the hair, without a blow-drier it looks pretty flat no matter what I wash it with. I'd rather have a nice shampoo every day or two, but I can live for quite awhile with just rinsing the sweat off with water.
IOW, if I can't blow the hair dry, the EDTA and ammonium lauryl sulfate are pretty much wasted on me.
Lone Wolf
05-24-2007, 15:32
no soap of any kind is needed while in the woods. wait til town to use it.
Sometimes, cleaning goes better without so much soap that you get bubbles. EDTA, an chemical first patented in 1935, is an ingredient added to many detergents and shampoos. It binds metal ions like Ca2+ and Mg2+ and keeps them from inhibiting the formation of bubbles. In other words, there were parts of the world with super-hard water that lived and cleaned essentially without bubbles for eons.
EDTA also keeps metal ions from catalyzing all sorts of reactions, especially oxidation reactions, so it is widely used for all sorts of applications. Its environmental impact has not been fully investigated, but it is suspected that it may make heavy metals more soluble, and therefore more mobile in ground water, streams, etc. It isn't horribly toxic to humans or anything--it is used in chelation therapy for lead poisoning--but its use is so widespread and the molecule is so durable that this gap in knowledge has become a cause for concern.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/qn/v26n6/a20v26n6.pdf
Humidity. I can take dirt, heat, cold, poor food, bad coffee, sore feet, and any number of other hazards of the trail, but until I get acclimated, I wilt in humidity.
This was probably the hardest thing about the summer I spent in Delaware. It felt like being in a bathroom without a fan, after somebody had just taken a shower. It didn't even cool off when it rained, which was very weird to me.
I just looked at it as what you have to put up with in order to have fireflies. (Now those are cool.)
The CDC says that anti-bacterial soaps aren't necessary for hygiene. It should be pointed out that if you're going to use them, though, the active ingredient should be given at least two minutes on the surface to be effective.
What is important is that whatever soap you use spends some quality time with your hands. You should be able to do a leisurely rendition of "Twinkle, twinkle, little star" (aka the alphabet song) in the time it takes to soap up and rinse your hands.
I like the idea of not wasting. I have an old copy of some Boston cookbook from 1890 that has a method, but how do you make soap from tallow at your house? Maybe I'll save beef fat scraps in my freezer until I have enough for a batch.
Still, I'm mostly interested in an all-purpose soap, appropriate for both dishes and skin, that is not so chemically durable that it is going to get into the ground water and mess up the streams. Do the old formulations meet those criteria?
As for the hair, without a blow-drier it looks pretty flat no matter what I wash it with. I'd rather have a nice shampoo every day or two, but I can live for quite awhile with just rinsing the sweat off with water.
IOW, if I can't blow the hair dry, the EDTA and ammonium lauryl sulfate are pretty much wasted on me.
Lye used to have directions for soap on the cans. I haven't checked lately. And I've long since forgotten the directions. But essentially the fat is blended into lye diluted with water. I think the lye should be mixed into the water -- or vice versa. I forget. However, do it wrong and the lye splashes badly, which is dangerous and not good.
Scrap fat should be boiled in water to remove the salt, allowed to cool and the hardened fat removed.
Homemade soaps are also a hobby. Books describing more elegant ways using vegetable oils are available. I've never bought a copy, but I've seen them in large book stores.
If you are really into burning wood and recycling, you can make your own lye. Just let water trickle through a barrel of hardwood ashes and out a hole in the bottom. I'm told that if you use enough ashes and minimal water the resulting effluent is ideal for blending into fat or oil to make soap.
BTW, there is no reason for not washing with soap in the woods, despite rumors to the contrary. Just dump your bathing water away from lakes and streams. Even doing that is mostly for aesthetics A little soapy water is pretty environmentally harmless.
Weary
Footslogger
05-24-2007, 16:57
no soap of any kind is needed while in the woods. wait til town to use it.
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I am inclined to agree. The closest I get to any type of cleaner out in the woods is the liquid hand sanitizer. Not sure that "cleansing" yours skin has any practical value when you're hiking. Moist wipes for pits and butt, otherwise get dirty and wash it off when you get to town. Dirt is Good !!
'Slogger
leeki pole
05-24-2007, 17:35
Always put the water into the solution. That way, if it splashes, it's most likely water and not the irritant. (Chem 202).
=================================
I am inclined to agree. The closest I get to any type of cleaner out in the woods is the liquid hand sanitizer. Not sure that "cleansing" yours skin has any practical value when you're hiking. Moist wipes for pits and butt, otherwise get dirty and wash it off when you get to town. Dirt is Good !!
'Slogger
But somehow, we all look forward to a shower when we reach town. Just think by cooking up some lye and waste fat, you can have an "almost" shower right on the trail.
Well, you don't actually have to make your own soap. I've noticed that stores sell all kinds. My preference is for a sliver of Ivory cut from a bar kept in a bounce box. But hikers should feel free to choose their favorite variety.
I've found that it feels as good to be clean in the woods as it is does in town. Perhaps the reluctance to wash up in the woods stems from a misplaced macho image -- or maybe memories of playing in the mud as a baby.
Anyway. Everyone should at least once get clean under the trees. You may find you enjoy it. You listening Lone Wolf?
Weary
Lone Wolf
05-24-2007, 18:46
soap and shelters aren't needed on the AT
Skidsteer
05-24-2007, 19:11
Always put the water into the solution. That way, if it splashes, it's most likely water and not the irritant. (Chem 202).
A bad idea, however, when mixing up a batch of pool shock.
Brrrb Oregon
05-25-2007, 14:12
I am inclined to agree. The closest I get to any type of cleaner out in the woods is the liquid hand sanitizer. Not sure that "cleansing" yours skin has any practical value when you're hiking. Moist wipes for pits and butt, otherwise get dirty and wash it off when you get to town. Dirt is Good !!
'Slogger
soap and shelters aren't needed on the AT
Use enough soap to keep from getting diarrhea. After that, it is all for comfort.
Always put the water into the solution. That way, if it splashes, it's most likely water and not the irritant. (Chem 202).
A bad idea, however, when mixing up a batch of pool shock.
Exactly, Skidsteer. Adding water to certain concentrated chemicals is a very bad idea. The resulting reaction might spatter something very nasty back at you.
Read those labels, kids.
Someone told me to use Colgate Octagon soap because it keeps chiggers away
I'll believe anything so I did it.
superman
07-19-2007, 14:10
I had a tube of that eco-friendly liguid soap in my pack when I started the AT. It broke and got all over my stuff. I never replaced it.
Kirk's Original Coco Castile Soap (bar soap)(www.kirsnatural.com (http://www.kirsnatural.com)) is biodegradable and contains no animal by-products or synthetics. Has anyone tried this? I have used it at home but not on a camping trip and only for showers, could you use it for cleaning dishes, etc....?
oops...... www.kirksnatural.com