distressing thefts of packs

[Wise Old Owl]

One of the closed threads I just found at a gathering of hikers. gave some very disturbing news. That someone or group is stealing packs. Folks what I am about to tell you is just as disturbing. The group that posted are very nieve. The blame went to the locals and to a 40 year old and a picture of a young black boy. I read your notes and posts and I find what you wrote is unfortunatly unthoughtful. I have been hiking the trail for years. While in New York, in 1974 I was on a 30 miler with the Wilmington Trail Club. We were supposed to camp at a shelter and it was occupied by some thirty hooligans that watched us pass by as we looked at them and didn't stop. We hiked on and pitched tents several miles further down the trail. Late that night noises woke me to people just outside my dad's two man tent. Our packs were inside, I didn't yell out as I thought it was the others in the group. I was wrong. The hooligans had caught up with us at 3 am in the morning and stole a lot of our group gear. (some 30 hikers.) The next day folks woke up to a very bad morning, One of us was a prominant NY reporter and rattled the state ranger at the next station to do something. He was able to get an old WW2 Jeep and run up several fire breaks until they found the group sleeping and they all jumped up and ran into the wood. Some of the equipment was recovered. Nobody was arresseted. (can't spell that)
I think at the time I was 14 year old.

Today I work for the most popular burglary alarm company in the world. Nothing to do with the above incident. I like looking at various statistics.

First. Folkes stealing packs is not for money. It is for the thrill of "doing it"

Second. Crack heads - couldnt sell the packs if they wanted, Would you buy a used pack pre stuffed? They need real money are responsible for bigger crime.

Third. Pictures of young black kids next to a pack was in very poor taste. Possibly racist and just as unfotunate. I am not sure why the person posted the pic with the post. I am just as equaly likely to blame a 40 year old white alcoholic for the same crime if I looked at the statistical numbers.

The thefts you are describing are about people who truly think they are being careful and hate been had or taken advantage of. We all just hate it when we get stolen from. I have had my car broken into and many other things on the job. I doubt any of it was being resold for cash. Park you car in any city and leave a few DVD's on the front seat and I will guarantee a broken window in a few minutes or hours. So what about a pack full of your important gear? It's only important to you, The guy who is taking it? Just the thrill of getting away with your gear without getting caught.

I have personally caught people stealing, creating havoc, and fired people, and have served as a public witness to a homicide case in my line of work. My job is perhaps the most troubling with people. I work with owners & managers to teach them and offer products to reduce losses. I am happy to give you a free be.

While backpacking England with my dad, we went to the Tower of London and as we entered there was a sign on the wall at the enterance. "Beware of Pickpockets" I immediatly reached to touch my wallet in my pants. I got the best lashing of my dad's verbal abuse you could imagine. I had givin away my location of my money. I was now a mark. Being careful needs to be taken to the next level. Put you name on stuff. Mark your stuff. Put your Drivers licence number and state on your stuff. Come on folks. Even if the guy or gal doesn't sell it it won't match their aliby.

I really personally care about the folks who run the site and I feel the folkes who read this are looking for good information about how to walk the white blaze. Some of us are a little misguided and that is to be expected. I am not posting blame. I look forward to everyone reading a thread that takes personal safety and reducing their personal loss is not releying on the police. It is about doing the "intelligent right stuff before getting stuck on the trail. I hope that if you read this that you make good choices and look out for others on the trail as best as you can. Not every person on the trail will accept advice or help.

This is a thread to give hikers an idea on how to protect themselves on the trail. I look forward to see your ideas on the best approch to the solution.

Thanks

Mark

[Gaiter]

yeah this didn't work the first time, everyone has different ideas from storage trailers, to canceling trail days, to using common sense, just ends up in name calling, kinda like on the playground in elementary school

[Lone Wolf]

Mala's Kitchen ain't happenin' next year. He had a camera and other stuff stolen. Plus his little AO was littered with beer cans and such come Saturday morning. Big crowds = lots of trouble. Cancel Trail Days.:banana The Gathering and Rucks are much more fun anyway. Non-hikers generally don't show up at these events.

[mweinstone]

more dinos! tail crushing teeth nashing theif eating dinos!cancell trail days? who is this? is that you lonewolf? or do you have kids visiting ? you sir arent yourself. traildays needs fixin. not cannin.

[Lone Wolf]

more dinos! tail crushing teeth nashing theif eating dinos!cancell trail days? who is this? is that you lonewolf? or do you have kids visiting ? you sir arent yourself. traildays needs fixin. not cannin.

it's run it's course. it ain't about the trail anymore

[Grampie]

it's run it's course. it ain't about the trail anymore

Lone Wolf is so right. This years TD was my sixth since I thru-hiked in 01.
I have noticed, through the years, that more and more non AT hiker folks are attending just to party and have a good time.
Each year I meet less and less hikers who are doing a thru, have thru-hiked or are serious hikers. This year will be my last.:(

[fonsie]

Well I have'nt been to a trail days yet, but I am very careful of where I put my pack. I have herd to many stories about people setting there packs down to go get water and bam. They come back and there stuff is gone. If I catch anyone trying to steal my pack, well thats the last thing that person is going to be doing. I would hate to set a bad example on hikers, but I also want people to kno not to mess with our packs. I kno its not good to be getting aggressive with people, because it sets of bad for other hikers. Come on you wake up at 3 in the morning and catch someone tring to run off with your pack. Or evan some towns dont like it when you wear your pack in the stores. So then you have to waite for another hiker to come along so you can take shifts going in the store. It's bad when theres people like this out in the world and I hope they all get whats coming to them. I hate being agressive about all this, but sometimes thats what it takes to stop theft and bring justice to use hikers.

[Gray Blazer]

I hate being agressive about all this, but sometimes thats what it takes to stop theft and bring justice to use hikers.

Amen to that. Sometime I'll tell you all the story of how I "stole" my son's bike back from the dude who ripped it off at my son's school and the sheriff wouldn't do anything about it. I'm a legend in those projects. I'm known as the white dude who stole his bicycle back from Vonta.

[Gray Blazer]

Just Jim, if you are reading this thread, I want you to know you are a stand-up guy. Thanks to all who said they would donate equipment to those who lost it. Now if I could just meet some of you guys sometime and trade my pics for some of that extra gear.

[Frosty]

Amen to that. Sometime I'll tell you all the story of how I "stole" my son's bike back from the dude who ripped it off at my son's school and the sheriff wouldn't do anything about it. I'm a legend in those projects. I'm known as the white dude who stole his bicycle back from Vonta.Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. I had some brand new speakers and car stereo stolen from my car at a parking garage. Broke a window to get in. I had just bought them for my wife and they were still in the box. There was a witness who gave car make and license number.

After a few days I hadn't heard back so I checked with cops. They said they couldn't get license number because it was too recently issued and not in the system yet.

That sounded bogus, so I asked a friend whose father was a sheriff upstate. The next day I had the name and address of the owner of the vehicle, which I gave to the cops.

Two days later I checked again by phone and was transferred. The cop answering said "Juvenile Division" and he told me the case was part of an ongoing investigation. He asked if the stereo/speakers had my name or anything engraved on them and I said no, why?

Because, he said, I just wanted to warn you if you go take those speakers back I'll arrest you and it'll stick. You don't want a record for stealing. Buy a new stereo and call yourself unlucky.

I was angry, but not angry enough to do something stupid. For a long time I didn't drive on Aldrich Street in my town for fear I'd see the black Toyota.

I'm not sure what the point of this is, but it's been twenty years and the thought of the unfairness of it all still boils.

[warren doyle]

I suggest that Damascus strongly discourages the use of alcohol and encourages that those folks, who can't function without the use/abuse of alcohol to have a good time and who also don't represent the entire long distance hiking community, move the celebration of their lifestyles to a more appropriate place like Duncannon in mid-July. Let it become Duncannon's challenge/problem.

I also suggest that Damascus stongly discourages the use of water balloons, water guns, and water buckets/hoses during the parade.

Trail Days would then become a celebration for those hikers who have avoided attending Trail Days during the past decade because of its 'party' reputation. Chances are these hikers would contribute more financially (business-wise) and positively (behavior-wise) while the Town of Damascus would decrease its risk of promoting an event that is increasingly becoming a "lawsuit waiting to happen."

The fine community of Damascus deserves better.

[Gray Blazer]

Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. I had some brand new speakers and car stereo stolen from my car at a parking garage. Broke a window to get in. I had just bought them for my wife and they were still in the box. There was a witness who gave car make and license number.



Yeah, you know who would have been arrested if the sheriff had been on the scene. I was pretty lucky. I didn't get beat up, killed or arrested. Sometimes you do what you gotta do. Did I mention that was the third bike that got stolen?

[the goat]

yeah, i thought i saw a can of budweiser making off with a couple of stolen packs.

[leeki pole]

FWIW, my offer of the pack, socks, fleece and hat still stands if somebody got ripped off and needs some help. Happy Memorial Day!:)

[saimyoji]

Yeah, you know who would have been arrested if the sheriff had been on the scene. I was pretty lucky. I didn't get beat up, killed or arrested. Sometimes you do what you gotta do. Did I mention that was the third bike that got stolen?

Sometimes you just gotta take matters into your own hands. I did once in high school. Busted up a ring of theives all by myself. The bastards just stole the wrong guys walkman.

[Just a Hiker]

Hey all, if any of these hikers need help, let me know.


Just Jim

[dixicritter]

FWIW, my offer of the pack, socks, fleece and hat still stands if somebody got ripped off and needs some help. Happy Memorial Day!:)


Hey all, if any of these hikers need help, let me know.


Just Jim

leeki pole, Just a Hiker... and anyone else that's offered assistance to the ones who had their packs stolen... first off thank you that's mighty stand up of you, and secondly, I would suggest you contact Local via PM with this offer as well.

[Time To Fly 97]

I suggest that Damascus strongly discourages the use of alcohol and encourages that those folks, who can't function without the use/abuse of alcohol to have a good time and who also don't represent the entire long distance hiking community, move the celebration of their lifestyles to a more appropriate place like Duncannon in mid-July. Let it become Duncannon's challenge/problem.

I also suggest that Damascus stongly discourages the use of water balloons, water guns, and water buckets/hoses during the parade.

Trail Days would then become a celebration for those hikers who have avoided attending Trail Days during the past decade because of its 'party' reputation. Chances are these hikers would contribute more financially (business-wise) and positively (behavior-wise) while the Town of Damascus would decrease its risk of promoting an event that is increasingly becoming a "lawsuit waiting to happen."

The fine community of Damascus deserves better.

Warren,

I think that is just an over the top and off target suggestion. Most people at Trail Days are having good time, LingNT (especially hikers) and supporting Damascus by buying things. I am not denying that this is a concern, but I do believe that Trail Days is a celebration of incredible Journies, alcohol included.

Happy hiking!

TTF

[Creek Dancer]

Strongly encouraging or discouraging certain behaviour will not change the vast majority of people.

[The Old Fhart]

“WD-…… that those folks, who can't function without the use/abuse of alcohol to have a good time and who also don't represent the entire long distance hiking community, move the celebration of their lifestyles to a more appropriate place like Duncannon in mid-July. Let it become Duncannon's challenge/problem.”

Truly one of the stupidest suggestions I seen coming from someone who is so well known for similar comments. The thread is about theft of packs and gear during Trail Days and we have to see this type of inane babble from this pious person who continually takes pride in advocating theft of services from everyone up and down the trail. This is the epitome of hypocrisy.

The reason he made that amazingly stupid suggestion is obvious. Not that he hates the great and hiker friendly town of Duncannon less, but that he hates Billville more.

[Wonder]

I've been to both traildays and the duncannon feed. I must say, that the duncannon feed was MUCH more tame. I don't think that it's an issue of giving one town the problem over another.....it's just that in every large gathering, there will always be a few bad eggs. I find the events that are true "hiker" events, are a bit more tame. I spent 20mins talking to a group of people at tent city who have never stepped for on the trail! They read about the party and showed up. I'm not talking about locals either.....so don't throw back the "anti-locals" stuff at me......I'm about to become one. I'm talking about how Trail Days has been "advertised" It's put out there as a free for all....not a hiker reunion. That's what worries me.
I'm not ignoring the fact that many of the rowdy drinkers were hikers....but once again....large groups have all kinds. Look at any college town on earth. The groups are pretty much a reflection of traildays

[Mags]

I' I spent 20mins talking to a group of people at tent city who have never stepped for on the trail! They read about the party and showed up. I'm not talking about locals either....


Seems like the "Rainbow Gathering" or the "Burning Man" effect. Once an event gets well known, people outside the core group show up and bring a party atmosphere with them.

People seem to be hearing about this cool party in the mountains down in Virgina and are now showing up.

(NOTE: I've never been to Burning Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_Man) or a Rainbow Gathering. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Gathering) I have not been to Trail Days since 1999. I'm just guessing based on what people have told me about these events. Heck..there is a good possibilty that there may even be an overlap among the three groups, too! )

[max patch]

I've been to both traildays and the duncannon feed. I must say, that the duncannon feed was MUCH more tame.

Depends on your perspective. The family of the hiker who passed away at the Duncannon festivities would disagree with you.

[Lone Wolf]

Depends on your perspective. The family of the hiker who passed away at the Duncannon festivities would disagree with you.

no alcohol was served at the duncannon festivities. that hiker made his own choice to drink at a bar.

[Wonder]

Depends on your perspective. The family of the hiker who passed away at the Duncannon festivities would disagree with you.

I was not reffering to the 05 feed. I was not a part of the trail community until last year. I will not even comment on the tragedy that happened that weekend, as I was not there.
As for you, why do you feel it nessassary to pull the negative out of every situation? Why can't you see and respect that though bad, even awful things do happen.....not everyone present is at fault. The glass half full/bully exsistence is, as far as I can see, a sad one..........
I dare you to say one nice thing........ think that you can?:-?

[Skyline]

Lone Wolf is so right. This years TD was my sixth since I thru-hiked in 01.
I have noticed, through the years, that more and more non AT hiker folks are attending just to party and have a good time.
Each year I meet less and less hikers who are doing a thru, have thru-hiked or are serious hikers. This year will be my last.:(

Maybe the TD public relations "department" has gotten too good at their jobs. Next year, maybe DON'T alert the local media about Trail Days, DON'T encourage coverage on TD weekend, DON'T give interviews or info when called by the media. I saw news stories and full blown features in the Tri-Cities daily paper plus several smaller ones, and it was all over Tri-Cities TV stations' Friday and Saturday newscasts. Less of that might equate to less non-hikers attending, and Trail Days in Damascus might revert back to being manageable.

[The Weasel]

Well, folks, I've read this whole thread, and I'm minded of "Casablanca," when Prefect Renault is "shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here." Trail Days is a lot of people, and it's a municipal festival like any other, except not as many corn dogs. In short, it's Gatlinburg on the installment plan, with no more and certainly no fewer honest people than Gatlinburg or Hiawassee or anywhere else. Statistically, that means about 1% aren't honest. In New York City, that may mean tens of thousands; but it's not non-existent in Damascus at the best of times, much less Trail Days.

When I was setting out, I recall all the advice about "Don't leave your pack anywhere out of sight." That included taking it into stores and not patronizing stores that wouldn't let you. "Don't leave your pack at trailheads." "Don't leave your pack by the side of the trail." "Don't leave your pack anywhere you're not at." And then, gosh dang, people leave hteir packs alone at Trail Place and, double dang, some get stolen.

That's tragic, and the victim is still the victim; I don't truck with the "blame the victim" movement. But still, the advice not to leave your pack outside Red Lion in Franklin is just as good in Damascus. Most of the time, it will be a 'no harm, no foul' result, and your pack will be there when you come back outside...or back to The Place.

But me, I either leave it where someone I trust will watch it, lock it up (if possible, which is rarely) or I wear it like the rest of my clothes. Yeah, that's a pain in the butt. But less of one than coming back to misery.

[Wise Old Owl]

Dredging up an old thread......

Well for us Northerners its almost time to put away that gear for the winter for some of us. Since that first post that started this thread years ago I had an incident here in Philadelphia. A group of young men did a large group of homes approx 300 burglaries and were able to sell off much of the stolen loot. Guns, Cell Phones, Jewelry, GPS, and other items. When the case was broken I was asked to be there on behalf of ADT to see if we could recover a stolen Laptop. I was in line that "Recovery" night with what appeared to be over 1000 people. The surprise was When I finally did gain entry to the police station there were less than 100 items to be identified and none were laptops or GPS. Much of the stolen jewelry was laundered by jewelers row in Philadelphia, an ongoing problem for the last century.


With the Trail Days coming up in May 2010 or just getting out there... I urge all of you to take a moment and scratch, or permanently mark your big 4 with a drivers license number and phone number permanently marking the object to aid its recovery and return.

[Sir-Packs-Alot]

One of the closed threads I just found at a gathering of hikers. gave some very disturbing news. That someone or group is stealing packs. Folks what I am about to tell you is just as disturbing. The group that posted are very nieve. The blame went to the locals and to a 40 year old and a picture of a young black boy. I read your notes and posts and I find what you wrote is unfortunatly unthoughtful. I have been hiking the trail for years. While in New York, in 1974 I was on a 30 miler with the Wilmington Trail Club. We were supposed to camp at a shelter and it was occupied by some thirty hooligans that watched us pass by as we looked at them and didn't stop. We hiked on and pitched tents several miles further down the trail. Late that night noises woke me to people just outside my dad's two man tent. Our packs were inside, I didn't yell out as I thought it was the others in the group. I was wrong. The hooligans had caught up with us at 3 am in the morning and stole a lot of our group gear. (some 30 hikers.) The next day folks woke up to a very bad morning, One of us was a prominant NY reporter and rattled the state ranger at the next station to do something. He was able to get an old WW2 Jeep and run up several fire breaks until they found the group sleeping and they all jumped up and ran into the wood. Some of the equipment was recovered. Nobody was arresseted. (can't spell that)
I think at the time I was 14 year old.

Today I work for the most popular burglary alarm company in the world. Nothing to do with the above incident. I like looking at various statistics.

First. Folkes stealing packs is not for money. It is for the thrill of "doing it"

Second. Crack heads - couldnt sell the packs if they wanted, Would you buy a used pack pre stuffed? They need real money are responsible for bigger crime.

Third. Pictures of young black kids next to a pack was in very poor taste. Possibly racist and just as unfotunate. I am not sure why the person posted the pic with the post. I am just as equaly likely to blame a 40 year old white alcoholic for the same crime if I looked at the statistical numbers.

The thefts you are describing are about people who truly think they are being careful and hate been had or taken advantage of. We all just hate it when we get stolen from. I have had my car broken into and many other things on the job. I doubt any of it was being resold for cash. Park you car in any city and leave a few DVD's on the front seat and I will guarantee a broken window in a few minutes or hours. So what about a pack full of your important gear? It's only important to you, The guy who is taking it? Just the thrill of getting away with your gear without getting caught.

I have personally caught people stealing, creating havoc, and fired people, and have served as a public witness to a homicide case in my line of work. My job is perhaps the most troubling with people. I work with owners & managers to teach them and offer products to reduce losses. I am happy to give you a free be.

While backpacking England with my dad, we went to the Tower of London and as we entered there was a sign on the wall at the enterance. "Beware of Pickpockets" I immediatly reached to touch my wallet in my pants. I got the best lashing of my dad's verbal abuse you could imagine. I had givin away my location of my money. I was now a mark. Being careful needs to be taken to the next level. Put you name on stuff. Mark your stuff. Put your Drivers licence number and state on your stuff. Come on folks. Even if the guy or gal doesn't sell it it won't match their aliby.

I really personally care about the folks who run the site and I feel the folkes who read this are looking for good information about how to walk the white blaze. Some of us are a little misguided and that is to be expected. I am not posting blame. I look forward to everyone reading a thread that takes personal safety and reducing their personal loss is not releying on the police. It is about doing the "intelligent right stuff before getting stuck on the trail. I hope that if you read this that you make good choices and look out for others on the trail as best as you can. Not every person on the trail will accept advice or help.

This is a thread to give hikers an idea on how to protect themselves on the trail. I look forward to see your ideas on the best approch to the solution.

Thanks

Mark
Thank you "Wise Old Owl" - obviously a good name!

[vamelungeon]

Leave a few packs laying around with rattlesnakes in them.

[Sir-Packs-Alot]

Trail Days. I've attended for the past few years since my thru and have had a great time every time. Unfortunately it has gotten a bit rowdier each time. Some packs and a set of bongos were stolen last year. It must be difficult for the Damascus police to know how hard to "squeeze". I saw a young woman being dragged away from a bonfire at tent-city last year crying - I believe it was drug related.

It would be a shame to end the "Trail Days" tradition and I'm sure in this economy that the loss of all the money the hikers bring into Damascus each year would be sorely missed. I think some of the other posts are right about the problem not being hikers getting rowdier - it's about non-hikers joining the party and taken advantage. How do we take care of that unless the event becomes harder for no-hikers to get to - or non-hikers aren't so attracted to the event? Anybody got a good idea?

[Jack Tarlin]

Other than Trail Days (where virtually all the thefts are probably committed by non-hikers) and a few sad cases each year where people are lazy, negligent, or really stupid about leaving their property unattended for extended operiods of time, the actual incidence of pack theft is actually quite rare on the A.T.

In truth, you have a MUCH greater chance of getting your pack stolen out of your car or off your own porch at home than you do of having it ripped off during a thru-hike.

A little vigilance and common sense would prevent a great many of these incidents.......which are quite few and far between anyway.

[generoll]

regarding recovery of stolen property, I though I'd pass on an anecdote. A few years ago someone broke the window on my Honda and stole my attache case full of sweaty exercise clothing and my WiFi which was in the glove box. I reported it to the sheriff thinking that I might be able to claim some of this on my comprehensive. I also immediately called XM and had my WiFi shut off.

About 6 months later I had a call from the clerk in the property room at the sheriffs department asking me if my WiFi had a password or something to use to make it work. I asked her if she had recovered it and she said no, she was just asking.

So, no big surprise that useful items weren't available on property night. They'd all been picked over twice. All that would be left would be the culls.

[Skyline]

Other than Trail Days (where virtually all the thefts are probably committed by non-hikers) and a few sad cases each year where people are lazy, negligent, or really stupid about leaving their property unattended for extended operiods of time, the actual incidence of pack theft is actually quite rare on the A.T.

In truth, you have a MUCH greater chance of getting your pack stolen out of your car or off your own porch at home than you do of having it ripped off during a thru-hike.

A little vigilance and common sense would prevent a great many of these incidents.......which are quite few and far between anyway.


Agree it's rare outside of TD. But each year it happens a few times and it's not always the fault of "negligent, lazy, or stupid" hikers.

It would help if places of business were not so pack-phobic, like when they force hikers to leave their packs outside their doors unattended while they shop, eat a meal, take a shower, etc. That's an invitation to looting.

I can see a business' side of it, especially when a large group of hikers shows up. They understandably don't want their other customers to be tripping over backpacking gear that hikers just leave anywhere they feel like it, especially inside a crowded entrance area. So, it might be an idea worth exploring for them to designate a place--inside, probably--where packs could be stored temporarily out of view and reach of others.

If you walk into a retail establishment carrying a bag from another store, often you will be asked to leave that bag with the office, a cashier, etc. Presumably, this is to cut down on shoplifting. Why couldn't the same arrangement be made for backpacks and other gear, instead of simply telling hikers to keep it outside?

Most of the commercial facilities (restaurants, stores, etc.) in SNP will not permit packs inside. They make hikers leave their gear right outside on a sidewalk for anyone who comes along to do what they want with it. These sidewalks are like 30 seconds away from where vehicles can park. It's amazing few incidents have happened at these establishments. There are nearly identical situations in many trail towns--right on the main drag.

[Chaco Taco]

Just use common sense. Remember your pack has your house in it. Do you leave your house unlocked or open for anyone? Im sure some do, but its just askin for trouble.

[Johnny Thunder]

Agreed, Chaco. I think the only time I left my pack outside and didn't get a window seat to watch it was when I showed up too late at the Smokey Mtn Diner for what became the Mr. Chaco II Hiker Feed.

[Johnny Thunder]

But, it's not always the locals you need to worry about...isn't that right, Chaco. Sometimes it's the people you've hiked with for over 4 months. People you might be tempted to leave your pack with because, say, you are expecting a visit from your dear Aunt and darling Grandmother, that you really need to worry about.

[wakapak]

But, it's not always the locals you need to worry about...isn't that right, Chaco. Sometimes it's the people you've hiked with for over 4 months. People you might be tempted to leave your pack with because, say, you are expecting a visit from your dear Aunt and darling Grandmother, that you really need to worry about.

Whatever are you talking about Johnny?? I do not recall your pack ever being stolen. :cool:

[Johnny Thunder]

Whatever are you talking about Johnny?? I do not recall your pack ever being stolen. :cool:

It might not have been "stolen" but I was distressed...to say the least.

[wakapak]

It might not have been "stolen" but I was distressed...to say the least.

It was just being kept from the bears while you were away....:D

[Trailbender]

I sleep with my knife beside me. If I hear someone sneaking around my tent in the middle of the night, they are probably up to no good. I will do what it takes to defend myself. Someone taking your pack in the middle of the woods is attempted murder. You need the food and supplies in them. If someone sneaks in my tent in the middle of the night, they get stabbed, no questions asked. It is the same as a burglar breaking in your house.

[ShelterLeopard]

Trailbender, that's kind of a weird thing to say. Someone around your tent at night, comes in, stabbed, no questions asked? I mean, I understand self defense, but that sounds a little drastic...

[white_russian]

Yeah, that is a bit on the paranoid side of things. I'd be more worried about bears than people coming into your tent.

[Elder]

Yeah, that is a bit on the paranoid side of things. I'd be more worried about bears than people coming into your tent.

:eek: and I suspect you would irritate the bear.

[Lone Wolf]

Trailbender, that's kind of a weird thing to say. Someone around your tent at night, comes in, stabbed, no questions asked? I mean, I understand self defense, but that sounds a little drastic...
you're young. one day you'll get it

[Takijeep]

Agree it's rare outside of TD. But each year it happens a few times and it's not always the fault of "negligent, lazy, or stupid" hikers.

It would help if places of business were not so pack-phobic, like when they force hikers to leave their packs outside their doors unattended while they shop, eat a meal, take a shower, etc. That's an invitation to looting.

I can see a business' side of it, especially when a large group of hikers shows up. They understandably don't want their other customers to be tripping over backpacking gear that hikers just leave anywhere they feel like it, especially inside a crowded entrance area. So, it might be an idea worth exploring for them to designate a place--inside, probably--where packs could be stored temporarily out of view and reach of others.

If you walk into a retail establishment carrying a bag from another store, often you will be asked to leave that bag with the office, a cashier, etc. Presumably, this is to cut down on shoplifting. Why couldn't the same arrangement be made for backpacks and other gear, instead of simply telling hikers to keep it outside?

Most of the commercial facilities (restaurants, stores, etc.) in SNP will not permit packs inside. They make hikers leave their gear right outside on a sidewalk for anyone who comes along to do what they want with it. These sidewalks are like 30 seconds away from where vehicles can park. It's amazing few incidents have happened at these establishments. There are nearly identical situations in many trail towns--right on the main drag.

Howdy, If the store says no packs and they want to get testy about it ask to speak to the manager and inform them that if they don't want your business you will shop elsewhere! Just fyi I worked four years at Walt Disney World as security and loss prevention; if it is out of your sight and has value to you that is negligence.:-?

[wacocelt]

Agree it's rare outside of TD. But each year it happens a few times and it's not always the fault of "negligent, lazy, or stupid" hikers.

It would help if places of business were not so pack-phobic, like when they force hikers to leave their packs outside their doors unattended while they shop, eat a meal, take a shower, etc. That's an invitation to looting.

I can see a business' side of it, especially when a large group of hikers shows up. They understandably don't want their other customers to be tripping over backpacking gear that hikers just leave anywhere they feel like it, especially inside a crowded entrance area. So, it might be an idea worth exploring for them to designate a place--inside, probably--where packs could be stored temporarily out of view and reach of others.

If you walk into a retail establishment carrying a bag from another store, often you will be asked to leave that bag with the office, a cashier, etc. Presumably, this is to cut down on shoplifting. Why couldn't the same arrangement be made for backpacks and other gear, instead of simply telling hikers to keep it outside?

Most of the commercial facilities (restaurants, stores, etc.) in SNP will not permit packs inside. They make hikers leave their gear right outside on a sidewalk for anyone who comes along to do what they want with it. These sidewalks are like 30 seconds away from where vehicles can park. It's amazing few incidents have happened at these establishments. There are nearly identical situations in many trail towns--right on the main drag.


I understand and truly empathize with your sentiment. It is however rather naive to even begin to imagine that some of the small groceries in some of these trail towns have the time or storage space which would be required to deal with some hiker influxes. Even ten hikers needing packs stored a day would require several interruptions of business not to mention people that don't hike being forced to deal with your stench.

[SurferNerd]

Like I learned in the Marine Corps, I take the same perspective to my pack as I did my M16. " I will never leave my weapon farther than an arm's reach." Now obviously I hang my pack at night, and food to the bear cables. That's where my infamous Fox5.3 Mace or .45 handgun (if legal on trip) would come into play.

[Jack Tarlin]

Most stores/restaurants don't want packs in there for any number of reasons:

*The worry about stuff getting knocked down/damaged by folks wearing big
backpacks. Don't laugh, this happens more than you think, especially in
small stores.

*They don't have a good place for people to leave packs and they don't want
to be liable or responsible for stuff people leave. And they have a point: If
a store or resteaurant employee says "leave your stuff in the vestibule" or
wherever, the implication is that it's safe there and the business is ultimately
resonsible for it, and this is an obligation many folks don't want to take on.

*Backpacks smell like rendered cats, and other than Outfitters, many places,
especially restaurants, don't wanna deal with them, for good reason.

Hikers are ultimately responsible for their own stuff. Keep wallets, ID's, cameras, phones, other high-end stuff on your persons at all times. If you leave your pack anywhere, do it wisely and judiciously; don't do it for long, and always, be aware that you do it at your own risk.

[makoboy]

http://www.pacsafe.com/www/index.php?_room=3&_action=detail&id=48&features=specification

Might be a bit heavy for many at 1lb 3oz, but I know several people who have used this while backpacking in Europe to prevent thefts of opportunity.

[sheepdog]

http://www.pacsafe.com/www/index.php?_room=3&_action=detail&id=48&features=specification

Might be a bit heavy for many at 1lb 3oz, but I know several people who have used this while backpacking in Europe to prevent thefts of opportunity.
that is pretty cool. like you said, just a little heavy

[Zoooma]

I sleep with my knife beside me. If I hear someone sneaking around my tent in the middle of the night, they are probably up to no good. I will do what it takes to defend myself. Someone taking your pack in the middle of the woods is attempted murder. You need the food and supplies in them. If someone sneaks in my tent in the middle of the night, they get stabbed, no questions asked. It is the same as a burglar breaking in your house.


Trailbender, that's kind of a weird thing to say. Someone around your tent at night, comes in, stabbed, no questions asked? I mean, I understand self defense, but that sounds a little drastic...

I don't think that's drastic at all. American citizens have every right to defend themselves at home and home for some people is a tent. The rules don't change depending on your type of housing. In the time it takes you to ask an intruder what their intentions are, they could kill you. But maybe they just wanna rob you and have no intention of killing you. How do you know? Again, in the time it takes you to ask them, they could kill you. If you don't mind that, then that's your choice. But even the most liberal American will probably want to kill (in self defense) than be killed.

You just don't know.

[cowboy nichols]

my shepard takes care of my pack, I don't stay in town and I also would use a knife without asking . You come pass my personal zone I protect myself. I've only had to use a knife 3 times and never on a trail.

[Skyline]

I understand and truly empathize with your sentiment. It is however rather naive to even begin to imagine that some of the small groceries in some of these trail towns have the time or storage space which would be required to deal with some hiker influxes. Even ten hikers needing packs stored a day would require several interruptions of business not to mention people that don't hike being forced to deal with your stench.



As a hypothetical business owner, I'm thinking I could go either way on this. Like most things in life, "it depends...".

If I had the room, away from the public, I wouldn't mind if hikers asked me to store their packs. It would be a good idea if I had some kind of two-part ticket to give them (one part for me, one part for them)—to present to reclaim their pack like you get at a restaurant's coat-check area or in stores where they make you leave your packages to diminish shoplifting.

I would certainly expect the hiker(s) to be patient and let me deal with other paying customers before I dealt with their packs. Yes, this may be a bit much to ask from a few of today's "entitled" hikers, but they would quickly get the message.

However, if my hypothetical business did not have the room, it's easy to see the other side of this debate. A business does not want or need hikers' backpacking gear out where it can be tripped over or stolen on its watch.

Wearing a huge pack while walking around in a commercial establishment? The right thing to do would be to take the pack off near the entrance, out of the way of foot traffic, and then go ask about storage.

Usually, there's a middle ground and so I would ask businesses that are near the Trail to try to find it. If they cannot, then it's up to hikers to live with the alternatives.

[Don H]

The only establishment that has allowed me to bring a pack inside was Cabela's in Hamburg. They checked my pack at the customer service desk while I shopped.

[Rockhound]

I sleep with my knife beside me. If I hear someone sneaking around my tent in the middle of the night, they are probably up to no good. I will do what it takes to defend myself. Someone taking your pack in the middle of the woods is attempted murder. You need the food and supplies in them. If someone sneaks in my tent in the middle of the night, they get stabbed, no questions asked. It is the same as a burglar breaking in your house.
Simmer down there Sparky. Stealing a pack along the A.T. is not murder, attempted or otherwise. You do know that you are generally no more than 10 miles away from a town anywhere along the trail right? I could hike that on an overcast night with no headlamp. (even easier without a pack) Also people have been known to get up in the night and then, half asleep, return to the wrong tent. It would be a shame to see you go to jail over killing an innocent hiker just because you're paranoid.

[Zoooma]

Simmer down there Sparky. Stealing a pack along the A.T. is not murder, attempted or otherwise. You do know that you are generally no more than 10 miles away from a town anywhere along the trail right? I could hike that on an overcast night with no headlamp. (even easier without a pack) Also people have been known to get up in the night and then, half asleep, return to the wrong tent. It would be a shame to see you go to jail over killing an innocent hiker just because you're paranoid.

Once again, in the time it takes for you to find out the intentions of someone who is invading your personal space, they could kill you. Question is: do you potentially allow that to happen? Or protect yourself?

[Johnny Thunder]

This thread has jumped the shark.
http://oregonjon.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/fonzie_jumps_the_shark.jpg

[Wise Old Owl]

Trailbender, that's kind of a weird thing to say. Someone around your tent at night, comes in, stabbed, no questions asked? I mean, I understand self defense, but that sounds a little drastic...

Not really - I had a gang in New York steal stuff in the middle of the night.... Long time ago.

[Skyline]

The only establishment that has allowed me to bring a pack inside was Cabela's in Hamburg. They checked my pack at the customer service desk while I shopped.



A super market in Luray, west of SNP, has allowed hikers I shuttled there to do the same. Their packs were stored in the somewhat crowded customer service kiosk near the entrance.

An outfitter in Waynesboro, and a diner in Glasgow--ditto. (And honestly, the diner didn't have much room to spare!)

[DrRichardCranium]

It seems to me that someone at TrailDays could make a few bucks by providing storage space for backpacks/other gear. You check your bag in & out with I.D. for a small fee.

[chief]

It seems to me that someone at TrailDays could make a few bucks by providing storage space for backpacks/other gear. You check your bag in & out with I.D. for a small fee.
Heck yeah, you could even work a deal with local law enforcement to bring a drug sniffing dog around, maybe for a small finders fee.

[rambunny]

I would try to sit by the window in resturants and put my hiking sticks up on top of my pack- if they moved i was out the door.Don't get lazy-keep everything with you that's valuble-i know everything is but -$ camera ect.

[veteran]

I use one of these; you can wrap the cable around a tree, telephone pole, parking meter or road sign. Prevents a snatch and run.

DAKINE Micro Lock
The Dakine Micro Lock is so small and compact you won't have any trouble taking it with you.

30 in. of retractable cable extends though odd shaped pieces of gear
3 digit combination
Set your own combination


http://ems.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pEMS1-6253659venh.jpg

[BrianLe]

DAKINE Micro Lock --- an interesting idea, but I'm left wondering what I would run the cable through on my pack. Maybe an older style heavier pack has something beefy to connect to, but with mine, at least, there's nothing I could thread a cable through that couldn't be cut in less than a second with a cheap pocket knife. I realize you're just talking about "snatch and run" level of defense, but still ...

I suppose if run under the shoulder straps and through an ice axe loop and pulled tight it would help. Might it also make it seem that the pack isn't being currently watched and encourage someone to dig inside??

Appreciate the idea at any rate, thanks!

[Trailbender]

DAKINE Micro Lock --- an interesting idea, but I'm left wondering what I would run the cable through on my pack. Maybe an older style heavier pack has something beefy to connect to, but with mine, at least, there's nothing I could thread a cable through that couldn't be cut in less than a second with a cheap pocket knife. I realize you're just talking about "snatch and run" level of defense, but still ...

I suppose if run under the shoulder straps and through an ice axe loop and pulled tight it would help. Might it also make it seem that the pack isn't being currently watched and encourage someone to dig inside??

Appreciate the idea at any rate, thanks!

I think that would be the tactic with this lock. Hide it so no one knows it is there. If they try to grab the pack, they can't, and will be confused long enough for you to realize what is going on.