offical hiker registers in thru hikers illegal?

[DavidNH]

Anyone else heard this?

I never new this..but learned this just today from Wingoot.

Apparently the NPS and the ATC considers hiker registers (the ones left in shelters by thru hikers for other thru hikers) are not legal and are considered to be abandoned property. This means more and more one will not be able to sign registers in shelters as the registers get removed and not replaced.

Snickers(David)


PS Wingfoot is very unhappy about this.. and was simply reporting the news in a post.

[ShakeyLeggs]

I have never heard this and hopefully Laurie P. will post and give us the story on this. I shot an email off to Larie asking about this.

[Lone Wolf]

Anyone else heard this?

I never new this..but learned this just today from Wingoot.

Apparently the NPS and the ATC considers hiker registers (the ones left in shelters by thru hikers for other thru hikers) are not legal and are considered to be abandoned property. This means more and more one will not be able to sign registers in shelters as the registers get removed and not replaced.

Snickers(David)


PS Wingfoot is very unhappy about this.. and was simply reporting the news in a post.

another good reason to get rid of shelters

[Skidsteer]

'Abandoned property'.

Sounds like a P.C. term for trash.

[rockrat]

When I hiked through the Smokies this year I asked the ridgerunner why there was a lack of registers and he said it was because the club that maintained it wanted thruhikers to supply their own.

[fiddlehead]

Well, i can imagine that the NPS would never think of them as "official" or legal. And the ATC would probably follow their thoughts. But I don't believe they would remove them as trash.
I know they confiscated all the ones within 2 states from the murder in 97 that is still (i believe) being investigated. (SNP two women were murdered)
So, even if they aren't legal, that doesn't mean the cops don't want them when something bad comes down.
As far as i know, they have always been donated by hikers and or clubs or shelter maintainers. Of course i haven't hiked the AT in 5 years now so things may have changed but i doubt it.
Sounds like wingfoot is trying to stir up trouble to me.

[Panzer1]

I think that if the register was placed in the shelter by the ATC or the club that maintains the shelter it would be legal..

If the register was placed there by anyone else then it is trash...

Panzer

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

While registers may not be official, I've never known of any maintaining group volunteer or ranger removing them as 'abandoned property' when other legitimate 'abandoned property' was removed.

If I had to guess what's going on -- Wingy's site isn't getting enough attention and he's trying to stir up a fight to draw a crowd. For once, this dino's not biting.

[Lone Wolf]

Anyone else heard this?

I never new this..but learned this just today from Wingoot.

Apparently the NPS and the ATC considers hiker registers (the ones left in shelters by thru hikers for other thru hikers) are not legal and are considered to be abandoned property. This means more and more one will not be able to sign registers in shelters as the registers get removed and not replaced.

Snickers(David)


PS Wingfoot is very unhappy about this.. and was simply reporting the news in a post.

NPS officer Todd Remaley who works out of the Boiling Springs ATC office came up with this. Wingfoot personally spoke with him a week ago and posted it on his site.

[The Old Fhart]

The title for this thread (offical hiker registers in thru hikers illegal?) is not correct and very misleading. What is being discussed is 'unoffical' hiker registers and I can believe that the NPS is indeed removing these registers on land they own or have direct control over.

Do you remember about a year ago when there was a thread about the cooler Trail Angel Mary was leaving for hikers near Duncannon disappearing? It turned out that the ridge runners/rangers, whoever, were removing the cooler because, under the laws and regulations they work under, any 'unofficial' material left on the trail is considered abandoned property/trash and has to be removed.

There was also a thread about leaving religious materials in shelters where trail maintainers and others concluded that any such 'unofficial' material left in the shelters could be considered trash and could be removed by maintainers.

Also, there have been geocaches along the A.T. and I know of several around Scott's Work Farm in PA that had to be removed last year when the NPS started enforcing their rules and regulations. Just recently I got involved when someone implied that all geocaches along the ENTIRE A.T. had to be removed because the A.T. is a National Scenic Trail of the NPS. The outcome of that back and forth was that the NPS can only enforce certain land use restrictions on the land they actually own or have direct control over. Geocaches are allowed, and welcomed in the WMNF and many other areas along the trail.

While I think it a shame to see these 'unoffical' registers removed (I left several in registerless shelters that I got back after the hiking season was over), and some of the hiking clubs use them to keep track of trail usage, and officials sometimes use them to check for where missing hikers might be; many probably will be removed, and there's nothing that can be done. Thru hikers look forward to reading the register entries to see how their friends are doing, or just plain entertainment. Registers are kind of like the TV replacement on the trail where hikers get to track their favorite soap opera.

Unless the maintaining clubs buy into this policy on lands that the NPS doesn't officially control, I suspect that these unofficial registers can remain in shelters on the majority of the trail. It would be a shame to see them disappear. I'd be interested to see what trail and shelter maintainers have to say on this subject. BTW, Wingfoot is just reporting what is happening, there is no conspiracy(in this case).

[Dances with Mice]

It's the telephone game again. WF says a Ranger says that the regulation says that... And everyone puts a different spin on the tale. The least we can do is get what WF said right. So here's what WF said, edited for length:
A maintainer in Pennsylvania complained about a new hostel owner nearby putting a message about the hostel in a shelter, something that should not be done, but I told the new hostel owner he could put his notice in the unofficial registers left by thru-hikers. .... I was told by the maintainer that even thru-hiker registers were off-limits to such notices, which are considered "advertising" by ATC. In trying to clarify the status of the thru-hiker registers from Ranger Remaley, I found out that the thru-hiker registers are essentially considered abandoned property.


...Ranger Remaley says that all thru-hiker registers (i.e., registers left by thru-hikers to be filled by other thru-hikers) are de facto illegal and will be considered as abandoned property. He suggests that if a thru-hiker wants to leave a notebook-type register in a shelter, they should contact the maintaining club and get written permission first. ...
….
... Signs and notices places along the Trail or in shelters are definitely not in the best interest of the A.T., but a business card or notice placed in a notebook left by a thru-hiker does absolutely no harm, and in fact helps cut down on illegal advertising by providing a legitimate place for such. Too bad the NPS and ATC, in their blindness to practicality, can't see the difference. Now their policy is to declare all unofficial registers left by thru-hikers as abandoned property, and to suggest that a thru-hiker get permission from the local club before leaving one (an asinine suggestion).

I wasn't there but my interpretation is that the Ranger essentially said "We don't care who puts what in those damn registers because that's not our job. Registers are abandoned property so we don't control their content. If anybody wants to censure the the registers it would be the maintaining club's job. Quit wasting my time." He didn't say "We're going to confiscate all the registers and fine anybody found leaving one."

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Thank you for clarifying this with facts DWM. It seems the PA Ranger just stated they would not be responsible for content of registers - not that they would remove them. This is what has gone on in the past from what I can tell so this change is actually not a change but a continuation of the current policy.

[BlackCloud]

Stupid gov't bureaucrats make me sick.

This is what the AT's one law enforcement ranger is worried about?

My experience is that the stupid Park Service bureaucrats get so caught up in their regulations, policies, and agendas that they completely lose sight of their agency mission:


"...to promote and regulate the use of the...national parks...which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

How does an unofficial trail register either ruin the park experience or degrade the natural envirnoment? As you ALL know, it's the volunteer clubs that make this (and most other) parks operate successfully; Get the hell out of our business.

:mad: :mad: GODDAM BURREAUCRATS I TELL YOU:mad: :mad:

[Tha Wookie]

When's the last time anyone here saw an NPS ranger on the AT?

I agree with Lone Wolf - the whole shelter itself is often (but not always) "abandoned property."

If one reviews the Wilderness Act, buildings are not allowed, especially when helicoptered in, put together with machine tools, and used for people to sleep in. Shelters are not consistent with "untrammelled" wilderness.

By act of congress, the shelters along the AT in Wilderness areas are illegal -and everything in them.

[Lauriep]

There has been no change in how this issue is being treated. Shelter registers have always been recognized as an integral part of the A.T. experience and are considered a useful management tool by ATC, clubs, the NPS and almost all of our agency partners. ATC does not have a formal policy on trail registers; club practices vary. Where clubs or agencies already provide a shelter register, it’s best not to have a competing register in the same location. In time, the register may become a valuable cultural artifact, and they are best kept in the hands of official trail organizations.

Laurie Potteiger
ATC Information Services Manager

[Dances with Mice]

Sounds like wingfoot is trying to stir up trouble to me.The winner!

[Lone Wolf]

speaking of trail registers, who's bright idea was it to put the Springer Mtn. register in the side of a rock? the majority of hikers have no idea it's there. put the mailbox back

[Dances with Mice]

speaking of trail registers, who's bright idea was it to put the Springer Mtn. register in the side of a rock? the majority of hikers have no idea it's there. put the mailbox backI'm sorry, man. We were laying the rock and having a few beers and about halfway through the project I said "Wouldn't it be funny if we mortored a mail slot into the side of this rock pile?" and everybody laughed. Honestly, I really don't remember doing it but the next morning there it was.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm sorry, man. We were laying the rock ...

which brings up another issue. why put a big ass rock where there wasn't one in the first place, then put a plaque on it and a hole in the side of it. there's already a natural rock with an unnatural plaque imbedded in it. trail clubs over do it

[Dances with Mice]

which brings up another issue. why put a big ass rock where there wasn't one in the first place, then put a plaque on it and a hole in the side of it. there's already a natural rock with an unnatural plaque imbedded in it. trail clubs over do itOh that. I guess you had to have been there. It's a long story but it all started at a keg party at this guy's house who had the plaque. After he passed out, we ... I'll cut to the end: it wasn't our plaque, ok? You should have seen the look on the guy's face when we told him where to find it. We figured he'd take it back and kick the rock off the mountain but instead he just left it up there.

[rjridgely]

When's the last time anyone here saw an NPS ranger on the AT?

I agree with Lone Wolf - the whole shelter itself is often (but not always) "abandoned property."

If one reviews the Wilderness Act, buildings are not allowed, especially when helicoptered in, put together with machine tools, and used for people to sleep in. Shelters are not consistent with "untrammelled" wilderness.

By act of congress, the shelters along the AT in Wilderness areas are illegal -and everything in them.

The AT is NOT a designated wilderness area....it is only a wilderness in the mind of the beholder....and thank goodness for that

[Footslogger]

Why do they have to be "legal" ?? Not like anyone is taking an oath before they write an entry.

Just another fart in a whirlwind. Not sure what constitutes "legal" when it comes to something like a trail journal but I seriously doubt that they'll disappear.

'Slogger

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino steals term 'fart in whirlwind' from Footslogger for her personal use :::

[WalkinHome]

In Maine the registers are considered MATC property for the purposes of input from hikers for the benefit of the trail.

Oh by the way, please pass the cheese to go with the whine on this thread

[ShakeyLeggs]

There has been no change in how this issue is being treated. Shelter registers have always been recognized as an integral part of the A.T. experience and are considered a useful management tool by ATC, clubs, the NPS and almost all of our agency partners. ATC does not have a formal policy on trail registers; club practices vary. Where clubs or agencies already provide a shelter register, it’s best not to have a competing register in the same location. In time, the register may become a valuable cultural artifact, and they are best kept in the hands of official trail organizations.

Laurie Potteiger
ATC Information Services Manager

Thanks Laurie that clears it up for me and I hope everyone else.

[Chef2000]

I am a volunteer maintaner for the Berkshire chapter of the AMC Massachusetts), all shelters taken care of by this group are supplied with a register from the AMC, when they are full they are removed and a volunteer goes thru looking for any complaints/ suggestions for maintenance of shelters or trail..IE "I spent the night in South Wilcox shelter and the roof leaked on me.." Or " I got lost because there were no blazes in this section"

As a maintainer of October MT shelter I remove any items that are not suppose to be there to include any non AMC registers, advertisements for anything and all those things that hikers "leave behind, someone else might use it".

[Tha Wookie]

The AT is NOT a designated wilderness area....it is only a wilderness in the mind of the beholder....and thank goodness for that

Actually, rjridely, the AT does pass through a number of capital "W" congressionally mandated Wilderness areas. In GA alone, just off the top of my head, I can think of two shelters that were built in Wilderness areas -one in Raven's Cliff Wilderness, and another in Tray Mt. Wilderness.

I could go through the whole list, but I don't have the time. Perhaps before your upcoming hike you could do some more research on the issue, or just wait until you walk through them.

I'm sure someone here could roll the stats off the top of their heads -how about it, anyone know how many shelters are built in designated Wilderness areas along the AT?

by the way, rjridely, welcome to Whiteblaze!:welcome

[Dances with Mice]

Actually, rjridely, the AT does pass through a number of capital "W" congressionally mandated Wilderness areas. In GA alone, just off the top of my head, I can think of two shelters that were built in Wilderness areas -one in Raven's Cliff Wilderness, and another in Tray Mt. Wilderness.

I'm sure someone here could roll the stats off the top of their heads -how about it, anyone know how many shelters are built in designated Wilderness areas along the AT?Three in Georgia: Raven Cliff (the Whitley Gap Shelter), Tray Mountain and Blood Mountain. Others are listed online (http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS).

[DavidNH]

The title for this thread (offical hiker registers in thru hikers illegal?) is not correct and very misleading. What is being discussed is 'unoffical' hiker registers and I can believe that the NPS is indeed removing these registers on land they own or have direct control over.

Do you remember about a year ago when there was a thread about the cooler Trail Angel Mary was leaving for hikers near Duncannon disappearing? It turned out that the ridge runners/rangers, whoever, were removing the cooler because, under the laws and regulations they work under, any 'unofficial' material left on the trail is considered abandoned property/trash and has to be removed.

There was also a thread about leaving religious materials in shelters where trail maintainers and others concluded that any such 'unofficial' material left in the shelters could be considered trash and could be removed by maintainers.

Also, there have been geocaches along the A.T. and I know of several around Scott's Work Farm in PA that had to be removed last year when the NPS started enforcing their rules and regulations. Just recently I got involved when someone implied that all geocaches along the ENTIRE A.T. had to be removed because the A.T. is a National Scenic Trail of the NPS. The outcome of that back and forth was that the NPS can only enforce certain land use restrictions on the land they actually own or have direct control over. Geocaches are allowed, and welcomed in the WMNF and many other areas along the trail.

While I think it a shame to see these 'unoffical' registers removed (I left several in registerless shelters that I got back after the hiking season was over), and some of the hiking clubs use them to keep track of trail usage, and officials sometimes use them to check for where missing hikers might be; many probably will be removed, and there's nothing that can be done. Thru hikers look forward to reading the register entries to see how their friends are doing, or just plain entertainment. Registers are kind of like the TV replacement on the trail where hikers get to track their favorite soap opera.

Unless the maintaining clubs buy into this policy on lands that the NPS doesn't officially control, I suspect that these unofficial registers can remain in shelters on the majority of the trail. It would be a shame to see them disappear. I'd be interested to see what trail and shelter maintainers have to say on this subject. BTW, Wingfoot is just reporting what is happening, there is no conspiracy(in this case).

Sorry if I did not phrase question right.. just wanted to ask about a post by wingfoot about the shelter registers. I do hope they will never dissapear..they serve as a wonderful communication mechanism between hikers (who is where when, water source, etc).
David

[Jack Tarlin]

David:

Re-read Laurie P.'s post.

The registers aren't about to "disappear". They'll still be there; people that wish to do so can write in them, or read them, to their heart's content.

Wingfoot's apparent fears about the future fate of shelter registers is not really something to be concerned about; he can rest easy on this.

And so can you.

[Dances with Mice]

Neither the registers nor discussions about Wingfoot are ever going to disappear.

[DavidNH]

David:

Re-read Laurie P.'s post.

The registers aren't about to "disappear". They'll still be there; people that wish to do so can write in them, or read them, to their heart's content.

Wingfoot's apparent fears about the future fate of shelter registers is not really something to be concerned about; he can rest easy on this.

And so can you.

Thanks Jack. I just read Laurie P.'s post. I feel reassured!
David

[trailangelmary]

ATC does not have a formal policy on trail registers

Nothing personal Laurie but....The ATC did not have a formal policy on trail magic either. However my trail magic of a cooler is over because my cooler of beverages was taken twice from the road where hikers come off the trail into Duncannon. ATC, NPS, or local club? I don't know.

[Chef2000]

The ATC has put out a policy on trail magic , I recieved it at the annual meeting of volunteers in Massachusetts. I can not find it at the moment but basically unatteneded coolers are to be taken away, as well as any unatteneded food items. It also covered hikers feeds and things like that.

[fiddlehead]

Thanks for that info. (wilderness website link by state) I didn't realize there were that many wilderness areas in the east. I love hiking in wilderness areas out west but have found even an airport that was grandfathered in (Bob Marshall wilderness)
I imagine the shelters on the AT that are in wilderness areas are "grandfathered" in. which should mean that once they are gone, they won't be rebuilt.
Once when i was hiking in the "BOB" a cyclone came through and the huge trees were thrown about like "pick up stix" and sometimes they were piled so high, that you found yourself walking on trees 15 feet above the trail. Easy to get lost and tough hiking for sure. The FS assured us that all of those blowdowns would have to be sawed by hand. (this was about a 2 mile section that in my opinion would take years to saw through by hand but they said, no it'll probably take 2 crews of 5 about 2-3 weeks!
There was a controversy by the way at the airport because they used a wheelbarrow to transport people's luggage from the airplane to the ranger's cabin and wheels are against the law! Go figure.

[Pokey2006]

Going back a bit, it sounds like the whole thing started not as a problem with registers, but as a problem between a trail maintainer and a new hostel. I do recall one place in PA that was having an ongoing dispute with the local trail maintainer...sounds like maybe the ranger just got caught up in it? If so, and after reading Laurie's post, it looks like this is one isolated case.

[trailangelmary]

The ATC has put out a policy on trail magic , I recieved it at the annual meeting of volunteers in Massachusetts. I can not find it at the moment but basically unatteneded coolers are to be taken away, as well as any unatteneded food items. It also covered hikers feeds and things like that.
Chef2000, I would like to have a copy of the policies of which you are speaking. Please let me know how I might obtain a copy.
Thanks so much.

[Chef2000]

I will look for mine, but if you contact Cosmo catalano at AMC Berkhire chapter he may help you out. I got my copy from him. I am not sure if all clubs have adopted it or not. He is also Whiteblaze member "cosmo"