View Full Version : Slackpackers swim Kennebec River!
ferryman
06-23-2007, 07:18
Thursday June 21 started out much like many other days of providing the ferry service. We had been operating the ferry service since May 18 and had assembled a strong group of Registered Maine Guides including a former thru-hiker, wilderness survival instructor, naturalist and a solid Maine woodsman. I was on duty today and arrived to the Kennebec River to get 8 hikers across the mostly low water conditions. There were three thru-hikers headed north. four Georgia bound southbounders and Tom, a section hiker since 1997 headed for the Long Falls Dam Road. The day was going great until I arrived back to the base camp and spotted 4 backpacks on the front porch of the hiker resupply store. "Who's backpacks are these? I asked and was told they were dropped off by a hostel owner from Stratton for four thru-hikers headed to Katahdin. "Don't they know that every shelter and most privies one hundred miles each way have a schedule for the ferry service with the words that NO one will be ferried outside of scheduled hours." I had called Florida Power and Light for scheduled releases earlier like I do most everyday and knew the river level would be very high this afternoon. "Well What the heck do we do, post someone at the river for eight hours and wait for the slackpackers to arrive?" After resupplying the three NOBO's and dropping them back off at the trailhead, it was decided that there was nothing we could do but wait. I called "Hillbilly" Dave to cover the store and keep an eye out for the hikers who were headed this way. This new wave of slackpacking the Appalachian Trail had taken a new and dangerous twist, setting hikers up for potential risk in order to fill the coffers of hostel owners. Slackpacking equals freeloading. I spent the next six hours worrying about four hikers I did not even know...would they stay at a shelter at Pierce pond, would Tim Harrison be around at Pierce pond and rent them a cabin, would they be caught in bad weather...a thunderstorm, would a fisherman or canoeist be around the crossing to get them across, did they even know how to SWIM? There was enough strong currnet in that river to topple a school bus never mind four thru-hikers. I called back to the base at around 8 pm and talked to Dave to see if the hikers had picked up their belongings. "yes they have, around 5:30pm" was the answer from Dave. All this fretting over nothing, however, just another day at the ferry service albeit A fortunate one for everyone. Maybe, just maybe, twenty years as the ferryman of the Appalachian Trail Kennebec River Crossing is just enough! Yours, Steve Longley
If you did not care about people, you would not do what you do...
Poor trend. Be well.
Steve, one thing I learned on the trail are for every 100 great thru hikers there are a few idiots. The hostel owner from Stratton should be shot because this would not have happened without his or her cooperation. As you know I was a raft guide on the Kennebec for seventeen years and I know what a killer that river can be. A lady on the next road to me is a widow because her late husband took a chance on fishing the Kennebec during a water release. I have forded the Kennebec early in the morning and late in the evening when I knew there would be no release from Harris Dam but for someone with no knowledge of that days scheduled release to ford the Kennebec is simply stupid in not responsible. Please communicate my thoughts to the hostel clown from Stratton and keep saving lives with your service.
Thursday June 21 started out much like many other days of providing the ferry service. We had been operating the ferry service since May 18 and had assembled a strong group of Registered Maine Guides including a former thru-hiker, wilderness survival instructor, naturalist and a solid Maine woodsman. I was on duty today and arrived to the Kennebec River to get 8 hikers across the mostly low water conditions. There were three thru-hikers headed north. four Georgia bound southbounders and Tom, a section hiker since 1997 headed for the Long Falls Dam Road. The day was going great until I arrived back to the base camp and spotted 4 backpacks on the front porch of the hiker resupply store. "Who's backpacks are these? I asked and was told they were dropped off by a hostel owner from Stratton for four thru-hikers headed to Katahdin. "Don't they know that every shelter and most privies one hundred miles each way have a schedule for the ferry service with the words that NO one will be ferried outside of scheduled hours." I had called Florida Power and Light for scheduled releases earlier like I do most everyday and knew the river level would be very high this afternoon. "Well What the heck do we do, post someone at the river for eight hours and wait for the slackpackers to arrive?" After resupplying the three NOBO's and dropping them back off at the trailhead, it was decided that there was nothing we could do but wait. I called "Hillbilly" Dave to cover the store and keep an eye out for the hikers who were headed this way. This new wave of slackpacking the Appalachian Trail had taken a new and dangerous twist, setting hikers up for potential risk in order to fill the coffers of hostel owners. Slackpacking equals freeloading. I spent the next six hours worrying about four hikers I did not even know...would they stay at a shelter at Pierce pond, would Tim Harrison be around at Pierce pond and rent them a cabin, would they be caught in bad weather...a thunderstorm, would a fisherman or canoeist be around the crossing to get them across, did they even know how to SWIM? There was enough strong currnet in that river to topple a school bus never mind four thru-hikers. I called back to the base at around 8 pm and talked to Dave to see if the hikers had picked up their belongings. "yes they have, around 5:30pm" was the answer from Dave. All this fretting over nothing, however, just another day at the ferry service albeit A fortunate one for everyone. Maybe, just maybe, twenty years as the ferryman of the Appalachian Trail Kennebec River Crossing is just enough! Yours, Steve Longley
Glad you could vent!
Hope you had a wonderful B-day(belated).
Time to start YOUR hike, no longer a ferryman?:sun
Kerosene
06-23-2007, 10:59
Maybe, just maybe, twenty years as the ferryman of the Appalachian Trail Kennebec River Crossing is just enough! Yours, Steve LongleySteve, you've got to hang in there through at least the 2013 season when I'm planning to finish up my last section! Seriously, worry about what you can control and remember all the good times!
Lone Wolf
06-23-2007, 11:00
you gotta admire the adventurous spirit of them slackers
Shadowmoss
06-23-2007, 11:06
The admiration for the 'adventurous spirit' ends when you get called out to rescure their under-prepared asses in the middle of the night/middle of your Christmas/pretty much middle of whatever you happen to be doing.
Shadowmoss
too many holidays ruined due to cave resuce call-outs for those 'adventurous spirits' punks
Lone Wolf
06-23-2007, 11:10
The admiration for the 'adventurous spirit' ends when you get called out to rescure their under-prepared asses in the middle of the night/middle of your Christmas/pretty much middle of whatever you happen to be doing.
Shadowmoss
too many holidays ruined due to cave resuce call-outs for those 'adventurous spirits' punks
maybe you shouldn't be a rescuer. paid, volunteer or otherwise with that attitude.
Shadowmoss
06-23-2007, 11:16
I'm not anymore. And I was mostly the spouse of the rescuer, which I am also not anymore.
I'm just saying that when folks do things that they didn't take time to prepare for and get into trouble, it gets old. The ones where someone just had some misfortune I had no issue with. The ones where 5 kids on holiday went in with flashlights and no spare batteries and ran out of light, or went in with a case of beer and fell breaking their necks cause they were drunk, those I had a problem with.
A rescue affects more than just the rescued person and the ones doing the rescue, there are a lot of support folks needed, and the families of thoses involved have their lives interrupted, too. It is a high price to pay for a few hours of being 'adventurous', and it's mostly not paid by those doing the ill-advised adventuring.
I'm not anymore. And I was mostly the spouse of the rescuer, which I am also not anymore.
I'm just saying that when folks do things that they didn't take time to prepare for and get into trouble, it gets old. The ones where someone just had some misfortune I had no issue with. The ones where 5 kids on holiday went in with flashlights and no spare batteries and ran out of light, or went in with a case of beer and fell breaking their necks cause they were drunk, those I had a problem with.
A rescue affects more than just the rescued person and the ones doing the rescue, there are a lot of support folks needed, and the families of thoses involved have their lives interrupted, too. It is a high price to pay for a few hours of being 'adventurous', and it's mostly not paid by those doing the ill-advised adventuring.
AA cals it an "enabler".
If you volunteer, quit bitchen', "enabling".
If your paid for it, "do your job".
troglobil
06-23-2007, 11:44
I just consider the stupid people as job security.
Jack Tarlin
06-23-2007, 14:01
Steve:
God Bless you for what you do, but if people are determined to act like this, well let 'em slack....and let 'em ford. You're under no obligation to be at the beck and call.
When someone loses their pack as a result, or has a real close call on the river, or worse, well, word will get around, and people who insist on acting like idiots, and those who encourage them to do so, may give it a rest for awhile.
In the meantime, have a great season, see you in September!!
Fedex posted this in his journal
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=189393
maybe you shouldn't be a rescuer. paid, volunteer or otherwise with that attitude.
I am an EMT and a member of The National Ski Patrol and rescue is what we are there for. However on more than once I have been involved in recovery as opposed to rescue. Except for being stiff and very heavy a person who drowned within 24 hours isn't too bad to recover. Usually they are on the bottom and you have to dive for them or you find them tangled in brush along a river bank. Sometimes in clear water a plane will spot them from the air and direct a boat to tham. The messy ones are the floaters. They stay on bottom until decay causes enough gas in their bidies to float them to the surface. They are bloated to about twice their girth and stretched against their clothes. Usually parts are missing and they smell like nothing you can imagine. Sometimes in cold deep water bodies are never recovered. If there is a ferry service on the Kennebec why would anyone take a chance of ending up drowning. When Harris Dam is open the river is running at 4500 cubic foot per second, usually more. A cubic foot of water weighs over six pounds so do the math on how many pounds of water pass you each second. The Kennebec is a proven killer and the insecure will continue to prove their manhood by fording but anyone secure in their ability will take the ferry.
smokymtnsteve
06-23-2007, 23:01
why fight Darwin?
safety is overrated, nowadays everything has safety features, take cars, seatbelts and airbags,
and then bike helmets,
and the cribs where the kids can't get thier head thru.
that's the problem.
you have cribs that kids can't get there head thru, so the ones who would have not made it out of infancy go on to get a bike and helmet.
used to be you'd loose a few kids who couldn't ride a bike ,,but not nowdays,,bike helmets save them
so they get a car, car has seatbelts and airbags, they get in a wreck, seatbelts and airbags save them, they don't learn to drive and we wonder why drivers are getting worse and worse on the road,
also the cause of overpopulation and the general lowering of IQ,
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
THANKS BE TO ABBEY!+
The Old Fhart
06-24-2007, 00:02
Smokeymtnweed-"...also the cause of overpopulation and the general lowering of IQ.."Was that self-appraisal on your part?:D
_____________________
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I hate men. It is a question, rather, that I can smoke a snake." Edward Abbey;)
From the journal:
With great difficulty and exhaustion they made it to the shore.
That sums it up nicely folks. The current at this water depth runs about 5 mph.
I would be curious to see how far downstream they went before reaching the Carratunk side. Crazy? Ayuh.
5mph doesn't sound like much until you have seen it...
Do not underestimate the power of hydraulics.
Crack of first light is prettier, anyway...
mweinstone
06-24-2007, 09:43
is it not possible the river releases can be found out about by hikers? or is it black opps clearence only . and if a hiker wants to ford, and knows the river, and notifies you and all others affected, may that hiker exersize the rights this contry was fought for by crossing afoot? respectfully asked .
is it not possible the river releases can be found out about by hikers? or is it black opps clearence only . and if a hiker wants to ford, and knows the river, and notifies you and all others affected, may that hiker exersize the rights this contry was fought for by crossing afoot? respectfully asked .It's all much ado about nothing. More people get murdered on the AT than get drowned. Not that I would ford it myself, I wouldn't, but just because it is dangerous does NOT mean people should be ridiculed for doing it. People sky dive, they kayak rapids, they dive in waters with sharks and moray eels, they do all sort of things for adventure. It's their right to seek adventure where they will. Just because I wouldn't do it doesn't give me the right to say they shouldn't do it.
Baltimore Jack has it right. Let 'em ford if they want, and don't make a big deal over it. If people start drowning it'll discourage others.
Of course, it won't discourage everyone. There will always be people that will do anything. A friend of mine is hiking the Huntington Ravine Trail today. I'd rather sky-dive into the Kennebec.
Okay, maybe not. But there's no way I'd hike Huntington, either.
Footslogger
06-24-2007, 11:25
All's I know is that the day I crossed the Kennebec in 2003 it took both of us paddling to make it anywhere close to the take-out point. I'm sure that varies with day and time of day ...but that was my experience.
'Slogger
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?01042500
TJ aka Teej
06-24-2007, 15:08
Met Fedex and the other Nobos yesterday at Shaws. The fording/swimmers were still being given a hard time about fording from their hiking buds. Nice journal post by Fedex.
Thanks for all you do, Steve!
Two Speed
06-24-2007, 15:15
Actually, Mudhead, I think the graphs on that website you posted tell the story. This just isn't a natural channel. I haven't seen the river in question, but speaking as a civil engineer with a fair background in hydrology and hydraulics I have to say it would take some extraordinary circumstances to persuade me that I wanted to ford that channel. The depth and discharge ramp up way too quickly.
Going from 2' of water to 5' of water, with a increase in discharge like that ain't funny. Looks more like how the arroyos out west respond than how I'd expect a channel in the northeast to act.
However, for those who choose to ford it is supposed to be a free country, so help yourself. Just be aware that you are taking a substantial risk, possibly an unreasonable one and that you may pay the price.
mweinstone
06-24-2007, 15:27
i've allways known i would ford one day if i could. if it gets to the point where it gets you ridiculed, so be it. i break lots of laws each day. i spit and jaywalk. i litter. i use profanity on the phone.i drink and carry. i smoke. i cheat on taxes. i pissoff god and sometimes i look at jesters ass! not! lol!
TJ aka Teej
06-24-2007, 15:32
i've allways known i would ford one day if i could. if it gets to the point where it gets you ridiculed, so be it. i break lots of laws each day. i spit and jaywalk. i litter. i use profanity on the phone.i drink and carry. i smoke. i cheat on taxes.
None of those will get you killed.
Do it old school, like Earl Shaffer and Myron Avery, and take the boat across.
smokymtnsteve
06-24-2007, 16:28
Was that self-appraisal on your part?:D
_____________________
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I hate men. It is a question, rather, that I can smoke a snake." Edward Abbey;)
no ..
U really can't smoke a snake ...
but U can smoke a salmon;)
smokymtnsteve
06-24-2007, 16:31
None of those will get you killed.
Do it old school, like Earl Shaffer and Myron Avery, and take the boat across.
well TJ jaywalking could get U killed...but that not the point.
who CARES if someone fording gets drowned,,and why recover the body just more protein for the aquatic creatures.
LET THEM....be less hikers littering up the trail ..less pressure on the trail and earth..maybe it's a good thing.
Programbo
06-24-2007, 16:47
Do it old school, like Earl Shaffer and Myron Avery, and take the boat across.
Yes but Ed Garvey got a ride around to the other side ;)
The Old Fhart
06-24-2007, 17:05
Programbo-"Yes but Ed Garvey got a ride around to the other side.";) In 1990 I was on the south bank of the Kennebec when Ed Garvey took the canoe across and I had a short talk with him.
Smokeymtnsteve-"U really can't smoke a snake ..."I heard you'd try to smoke anything, legal or not!;)
U really can't smoke a snake ...
I've heard tell of people smoking eels.
smokymtnsteve
06-24-2007, 18:19
I heard you'd try to smoke anything, legal or not!;)
you heard wrong,
I don't even like being around folks smokin tabacco.:p
mweinstone
06-24-2007, 18:29
didnt evil kenival jump the kennibeck river gorge in a rocket? oh,.. right. that was the snake.
kennibeck river
Mr. Weinstone reminds us regularly that spelling isn't a prerequisite for hiking the A.T. It's a good thing. Even if he managed to get beyond the Kennebec River, he'd surely die in the 100 miles.:D
Programbo
06-24-2007, 19:18
In 1990 I was on the south bank of the Kennebec when Ed Garvey took the canoe across and I had a short talk with him.
I meant on his first hike..Sorry should have been more specific..Of course I don`t think a ferry system was as well established back then
mweinstone
06-24-2007, 19:22
did you know,..diamonds that are colored with violet to change their value, a common practice , turn green when the coloring wears off?
No, I did not know that.;) Did you know there's a plant known to some as a green violet?:p :D
If people start drowning it'll discourage others.
It has already happened and many other close calls too. Do we really need more drownings to reinforce what we already know?:-?
smokymtnsteve
06-24-2007, 21:05
It has already happened and many other close calls too. Do we really need more drownings to reinforce what we already know?:-?
so a few people drown,,,so what
LET THEM...then they won't be swimming in the gene pool:eek:
so a few people drown,,,so what
LET THEM...then they won't be swimming in the gene pool:eek:
Such compassion from someone so far away from the AT.
Just so you know, i like to fish downstream of the crossing and would really rather not hook a drowned hiker while fishin deep in summer.
smokymtnsteve
06-24-2007, 21:20
so I live in Fairbanks AK now so, what?
I used to live in Cherokee NC, so what?
your chances of hooking a drowned hiker while fishing are very slim.
Besides you can always practice catch and release fishing for hikers.
Appalachian Tater
06-24-2007, 22:03
What this really proves is that you need to treat your water even if it looks clean. There could be a dead hiker rotting away just upstream.
The link provided by another poster showed that the release is around noon everyday like clockwork. If you were to ford in the morning (7 or 8 o'clock) I don't see what the big deal is!
I'll take the canoe, though, because it is an official part of the trail. Fording is blue blazing.
fiddlehead
06-24-2007, 22:46
Swimming the Kennebec is good training for more arduous trails that may be in your future. Here's a good story of some triple crowners who did an adventurous trip in the Northwest Territories to the Yukon: http://www.aldhawest.org/Gazette/V4_1_Canol.asp
I believe if the release schedule and flow levels were posted on both sides of the Kennebec, more people would learn how to ford a wide river. (something that needs to be learned by experience for these tougher hikes) There won't always be a canoe there.
That being said, i think slackpacking without knowing the schedule or flow levels sounds a bit irresponsibile to me, but i don't know the extent of these folks knowledge or skill levels of swimming.
I do remember my hiking partner: "Party Animal" in '89 swimming it with a big garbage bag over his pack which he carried (hence planned for) from Stratton, Me as he knew he wanted to do the AT where the white blazes are. (he did the backstroke, pulling his pack alongside of him)
The ford is about 100 metres west of this point but the swimming is easiest near the white blazes IMO.
So, don't be so quick to bash people who you don't know and don't know their intentions. There are still some freedom's left in this country and i believe fording or swimming the Kennebec is not against the law (yet) although i'm not positive about that.
no ..
U really can't smoke a snake ...
but U can smoke a salmon;)
I thought it was, "You can play a piano, but you can't tuna fish".:D
minnesotasmith
06-25-2007, 08:54
"Slackpacking equals freeloading"
Nope, not neccessarily so at all. I slackpacked most of Maine during my 2006 thruhike, and I paid out the @_ _ for the service, like around a grand, dealing with Pine Ellis, Gull Pond (sp?), and Shaw's.
I also dealt with what inevitable problems arose during my hike without expecting anyone to come looking for me. The infamous night I spent in the privy in S. Maine during a slack where I could not get a ride back to the hostel (when after 90 minutes of fruitless hitching, it got dark, rainy, cold, and windy), I was genuinely suprised to have anyone worried about me. (Pine Ellis's owners, great people, did in fact get concerned, on a level with Miss Janet when I got sick.)
So, I don't believe that thruhikers are automatically parasites or morons when they slackpack, any more than they are when fullpacking.
Wolf - 23000
06-25-2007, 09:05
Steve,
Great story. I know first hand how strong that current it is going. I remember trying to paddle against it back years ago. It just tells how dangerous slack-packing can be.
I'm not sure if anyone said this but thank-you for being such a good friend to hikers and personal. Not everyone would have cared such as the stratton hostle owner who just dropped off their backpacks. He should have warned them prior to leaving.
I have to ask, knowing how strong that current is in the evening, how did they get across?
Wolf
The Solemates
06-25-2007, 09:16
Steve...Thanks so much for caring like you do.
But please also remember that hikers should have a choice to hike the way they would like to. If that means swimming, so be it. When it comes to the Kennebec, the entire hiker community appreciates what you do. But you are not our guardian.
Wolf - 23000
06-25-2007, 10:10
Steve...Thanks so much for caring like you do.
But please also remember that hikers should have a choice to hike the way they would like to. If that means swimming, so be it. When it comes to the Kennebec, the entire hiker community appreciates what you do. But you are not our guardian.
Solemates,
I worked the Kennebec River as the ferryman. Steve as you said is not anyone guardian but he is a member of the hiking community. It is never good news when someone gets themselves killed because they did something stupit. When the river lets out, it moves FAST. If the roles were reverse, what would you do? Another hostle owner drops off hikers packs on your door step planning on hiking 30 miles and forward a very swist river at the end.
Wolf
leeki pole
06-25-2007, 11:43
I thought it was, "You can play a piano, but you can't tuna fish".:D
REO Speedwagon...yeah!
Darwin again
06-25-2007, 11:52
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?01042500
They dump water at noon and the gauge depths go from two feet to five feet, generally, and stay that way into the evening.
Looks pretty straight-forward to me; certainly not unpredictable.
Feel the power of natural selection at work.
Steve was right to be worried about hikers crossing in the afternoon...
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2007, 15:38
They do NOT "dump" water only at specific times.
There is no set or posted schedule in regards to water release on the river.
Steve worries about hikers that ford at ANY time, not just the afternoon, partly because many have no idea what they're doing, and even those that might think that they do may still encounter higher and faster water than they expected.
Steve Longley knows this stretch of water better that anyone alive.
His considered opinion is that fording the river is simply not a very prudent or sensible thing to do.
What is "straight forward" about crossing the Kennebec River here is that the person who knows the river better than anyone else is on record as opposing it.
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2007, 15:42
I wonder if the people who encourage others to ford the Kennebec will continue to do so after someone they encouraged drowns or if they will have nightmares for the rest of their lives.
I worked the Kennebec River as the ferryman. Steve as you said is not anyone guardian but he is a member of the hiking community. It is never good news when someone gets themselves killed because they did something stupit.Of course it is not good news. But remember, these guys didn't die. Every is acting like fording a river is certain death. It is dangerous, but not as dangerous as stuff you yourself do. A heck of a lot more people die hiking in Maine/NH in the winter than die fording the Kennebec.
I'm sure you wouldn't want to be not allowed to hike in Maine in the winter just because it is dangerous. People have a right to ford the Kennebec, just as they have the right to backpack in maine inthe winter, and to hike the Bruce Trail and West Coast Trail and PCT and all the other trails with rivers equally as dangerous as the Kennebec.
Again, I would not ford the Kennebec myself, but I get very nervous when people start telling me what I have to do just so they won't worry about me. We need to stop preventing people from doing legal activities, even if the reast of the worls sees it as risky, just so we won't be nervous while they do it.
As SMS posted:
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
THANKS BE TO ABBEY!+
warren doyle
06-25-2007, 16:11
Being secure in both by human animalhood and ability, I look forward to safely fording the Kennebec with exuberance and exhilaration in the early morning of Thursday August 2nd. I will celebrate the current coursing past by my legs and caressing my skin for at least the twentieth time. Celebrate sensation!
smokymtnsteve
06-25-2007, 16:16
I wonder if the people who encourage others to ford the Kennebec will continue to do so after someone they encouraged drowns or if they will have nightmares for the rest of their lives.
how about parents that help thier kids get a drivers licence and buy them an automobile?
Frosty,
People have a right to ford the Kennebec, just as they have the right to backpack in maine inthe winter, and to hike the Bruce Trail and West Coast Trail and PCT and all the other trails with rivers equally as dangerous as the Kennebec.
Actually people do not have the right to do anything they want to on land they do not own. The use of public land is a privledge.
What people do have a right to is free speech. All i am hearing so far, is people urging others to act responsible. I have not heard a call for legilation to ban fording the Kennebec.
I want to see as few rules as possible governing the AT and other outdoor public lands. The best way to keep the from having our freedoms taken away is to act responsible.
I wonder if the people who encourage others to ford the Kennebec will continue to do so after someone they encouraged drowns or if they will have nightmares for the rest of their lives.Good question. What do makers of race cars feel when someone dies in a car they built, or bungee cord manufacturers, or makers of base jumping equipment? Companies that drop people off in the wilderness to ski or or whatever?
I think the answer could be either of your two choices, depending on the person, but most like would fall somewhere in the middle.
Reasonably, most people do not die when they drive a race car, or base jump, but some do. Anyone who fords the Kennebec should be aware that someone drowned in 1985, and it could happen again.
One thing I doubt is that many people would have nightmares for the rest of their lives. That is pretty melodramatic. Even people who cause others to die in car crashes eventually come to make peace with themselves. You can only beat yourself up for so long.
But it is an excellent question, and people should ask themselves how they would feel if someone took their advice and died as a result.
We all say how safe the AT is, and ridicule those who talk about bringing guns along, yet people have been murdered on the AT. I feel badly about that, and would feel even worse if I had personally told the person that the AT was safer than their hometown. But eventually I think I would accept that very few people have been murdered on the AT. But I doubt I would ever again say it is safe, so I guess I fall in the middle of your two choices. No, I would continue to make that recommendation, but neither would I have nightmares the rest of my life.
The same with winter hiking. I always extoll the virtues of snowshoeing. It is exhilirating and tremendous fun. I hope no one on this list or other hiking lists does not read my words, and go out and die in the snow. People do die in the snow, every year.
Have you ever given a guy a beer? I have, like most everyone else has at one time or another. How would we feel if he died in a car crash? I don't know.
An excellent question to consider. Good post.
The last sentence of my post should have said.
The best way to keep from having our freedoms taken away is to act responsible.
The Solemates
06-25-2007, 17:09
Of course it is not good news. But remember, these guys didn't die. Every is acting like fording a river is certain death. It is dangerous, but not as dangerous as stuff you yourself do. A heck of a lot more people die hiking in Maine/NH in the winter than die fording the Kennebec.
I'm sure you wouldn't want to be not allowed to hike in Maine in the winter just because it is dangerous. People have a right to ford the Kennebec, just as they have the right to backpack in maine inthe winter, and to hike the Bruce Trail and West Coast Trail and PCT and all the other trails with rivers equally as dangerous as the Kennebec.
Again, I would not ford the Kennebec myself, but I get very nervous when people start telling me what I have to do just so they won't worry about me. We need to stop preventing people from doing legal activities, even if the reast of the worls sees it as risky, just so we won't be nervous while they do it.
As SMS posted:
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to set off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
THANKS BE TO ABBEY!+
This is what I was trying to say, but you put it oh so much more eloquently.
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2007, 17:18
how about parents that help thier kids get a drivers licence and buy them an automobile?
If a parent encourages a child to drive without wearing a seatbelt and their kid dies as a result, it is quite likely they would encourage the rest of their children to wear seatbelts. They probably would have nightmares as well.
There will always be people who ford and they certainly have the legal right to do so. However, encouraging others to do so is irresponsible.
Granted, there will always be irresponsible people.
I also wonder if the family of someone who drowned following the advice of someone irresponsible who advocates fording the Kennebec could then sue the advice-giver after the drowning.
Darwin again
06-25-2007, 17:44
They do NOT "dump" water only at specific times.
There is no set or posted schedule in regards to water release on the river.
Steve worries about hikers that ford at ANY time, not just the afternoon, partly because many have no idea what they're doing, and even those that might think that they do may still encounter higher and faster water than they expected.
Steve Longley knows this stretch of water better that anyone alive.
His considered opinion is that fording the river is simply not a very prudent or sensible thing to do.
What is "straight forward" about crossing the Kennebec River here is that the person who knows the river better than anyone else is on record as opposing it.
As I wrote, Steve was right to be worried.
The "sensation" you feel fording that river could be your last...
trippclark
06-25-2007, 17:46
Two things to start off with. One, I am not trying to hijack the thread, but it did prompt a question in my mind that I had not thought much about earlier. Two, I have read enough posts about the Kennebec River to know that this river and crossing it (canoe or fording) seems to be a lightening rod for debate and I am not trying to be provocative in any way. All that said, realize that my AT hiking is limited to the first (southern) 700 miles and I have only seen the Kennebec River in photographs and videos, so it is tough to put it in perspective. However, the obvious question that comes to mind is that if crossing it by any way other than canoe is as hazardous as I have come to believe, why has there not been a footbridge built across it? I know that most of the large streams and all of the rivers that I have encountered so far have bridges. The Kennebec River maybe is larger or more powerful than any I have encountered thus far, but I can hardly fathom a river too large or powerful for any bridge at all. And while I would hate to deprive Steve or any other service provider their sustenance (especially given all the great things I have heard about Steve), it seems from my admittedly limited perspective that this would be the most practical solution in the long view and would provide safe passage 24x7x365. I also have gathered that "getting wet" is a bit of a Maine tradition, and that is okay and explains maybe a lack of bridges elsewhere, but it seems that here one would make sense. The message that I have gleaned is that the Kennebec is a notch above other Maine water crossings and thus is the reason for the ferry service.
Once again, I am not trying to be provocative, but I am genuinely curious to know why or who has made the conscious decision here to not build a bridge when the message seems to be clearly communicated that you should not ford this river.
Lone Wolf
06-25-2007, 17:53
Two things to start off with. One, I am not trying to hijack the thread, but it did prompt a question in my mind that I had not thought much about earlier. Two, I have read enough posts about the Kennebec River to know that this river and crossing it (canoe or fording) seems to be a lightening rod for debate and I am not trying to be provocative in any way. All that said, realize that my AT hiking is limited to the first (southern) 700 miles and I have only seen the Kennebec River in photographs and videos, so it is tough to put it in perspective. However, the obvious question that comes to mind is that if crossing it is by any way other than canoe is as hazardous as I have come to believe, why has there not been a footbridge built across it? I know that most of the large streams and all of the rivers that I have encountered so far have bridges. The Kennebec River maybe is larger or more powerful than any I have encountered thus far, but I can hardly fathom a river too large or powerful for any bridge at all. And while I would hate to deprive Steve or any other service provider their sustenance (especially given all the great things I have heard about Steve), it seems from my admittedly limited perspective that this would be the most practical solution in the long view and would provide safe passage 24x7x365. I also have gathered that "getting wet" is a bit of a Maine tradition, and that is okay and explains maybe a lack of bridges elsewhere, but it seems that here one would make sense. The message that I have gleaned is that the Kennebec is a notch above other Maine water crossings and thus is the reason for the ferry service.
Once again, I am not trying to be provocative, but I am genuinely curious to know why or who has made the conscious decision here to not build a bridge when the message seems to be clearly communicated that you should not ford this river.
yeah. makes you wonder. the bridge across the james river is over 600 feet long and 50 feet high. and the bridge wasn't needed. it was a short walk on pavement over a vehicle bridge to get back to the woods.
the kennebec ford is no where near as dangerous as the people who have never forded it, say it is
mweinstone
06-25-2007, 18:23
ive never even seen it and im not scared. . im a friggin man! im king of the jungle for goodness sake. ive forded a lot of rivers in the winds in wyoming that were scary. i know the proper tecnique. remove sox. wear boots. use pole to form tripod and to probe for holes. present a slim profile to the oncomming water. dont do it alone. search for a calm bend or good crossing. wait for the tide,..bla bla bla bla bla
mweinstone
06-25-2007, 18:25
undo waistbelt and be ready to jetison pack....bla bla bla...
Trippclark. I'm with you. Perhaps someone will enighten us?
Skidsteer
06-25-2007, 18:59
Once again, I am not trying to be provocative, but I am genuinely curious to know why or who has made the conscious decision here to not build a bridge when the message seems to be clearly communicated that you should not ford this river.
Trippclark. I'm with you. Perhaps someone will enighten us?
Money. Not enough people have bought the farm crossing the river. Cheaper to pay Steve the Ferryman.
Lone Wolf
06-25-2007, 19:03
Money. Not enough people have bought the farm crossing the river. Cheaper to pay Steve the Ferryman.
nobody died crossing the james river or was hit and killed by a vehicle. if they ever bridge the kennebec, i'll still ford
warren doyle
06-25-2007, 19:14
If the bridge had a white blaze on it, I would cross it first. Then go back across the bridge and ford the river for the fun and adventure of it.
Lone Wolf
06-25-2007, 19:37
If the bridge had a white blaze on it, I would cross it first. Then go back across the bridge and ford the river for the fun and adventure of it.
remember back in 91 when maineak was doing his speed hike, he arrived at the kennebec late afternoon and wolf canoed him across. next morning he forded back SOBO then turnned around and forded NOBO. we made it to monson that day.
Wolf - 23000
06-25-2007, 19:57
Frosty,
When I winter hike Maine, NH, VT and so on down I also carried a full pack all the way. When I got in trouble because of bad weather, or falling through the ice, etc, I had the gear and experience to handle it (prior to winter hiking the state of Maine, I had already winter hiked over 8,000 miles.) There was also a stream in the hundred mile wilderness I refuse to cross. I took the alternate route adding 3 miles to my trip. I did it being safe. It is a little different when you have to ford a very swift river crossing after already hiking 30 miles because all your gear is on the other side. The only way around the Kennebec is a 18 miles (???) dirt road at Pierce pond - 3 miles prior to the River crossing and a 30 miles hitch up to the fork. About 50 miles total.
Crossing the Kennebec River is not certain death as you said. When most hikers cross the river in the morning, the river is normal low. I’ve swam across several times myself. While the dam lets loose is a different story. I had a girlfriend who didn’t believe me the river was that strong while the dam let out. She got to knee deep and could not even stand up. I still would like to know how they got across the Kennebec River while it going????
Finally, I agree with you, that I would not want a regulation on how one should hike in the wilderness, but I’m also about doing things responsible and not involving other people. When they dropped off their backpacks they involved Steve in their hike without even asking or talking with him prior. The backpackers, who know me, know that I am a very safe hiker and I know what I am doing very well. I’ve done a few things that to some may consider a little dangerous but it also something I’ve work up to. I have hiked many thousands of miles in all types of weather before I did Maine/NH.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
06-25-2007, 19:59
remember back in 91 when maineak was doing his speed hike, he arrived at the kennebec late afternoon and wolf canoed him across. next morning he forded back SOBO then turnned around and forded NOBO. we made it to monson that day.
Yea I remember. Most night the river really moves, that night the river wasn't that bad at all. Maineak also didn't turn down the ride accross either. In the morning he forded when it was safer.
Wolf
Some risks are simply unacceptable.
Really dumb !#%&*!!!!
Who in hell was watcing those packs on the porch?
(Commiitting oneself or one's hostel guest to that late day crossing by that move wasn't such a great idea either. )
katagious
06-25-2007, 20:10
Money. Not enough people have bought the farm crossing the river. Cheaper to pay Steve the Ferryman.
Don't think there's a farm across the river there....if there were..people might thinks it's worth spending the money to pay for a bridge so's they don't have to ford the cattle. Most backwoods Mainers don't really care to spend their money on making flatlanders wilderness experience...less natural. I mean..if you want easy....stay south..ayuh.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2007, 20:16
I've heard several things over the years as to why there's no bridge on the Kennebec:
1) Expense. It'd have to be a very large bridge, and the MATC doesn't have
the funds.
2) It'd be difficult to make, as it'd have to be strong enough and high
enough to escape being destroyed by ice jams and river melt in early
spring.
Having a bridge there might be more "practical".......until people are away of the difficulty and cost of the project.
katagious
06-25-2007, 20:21
Erm...just to be clear..there are plenty of bridges over the Kennebec...there's just doesn't happen to be one there!
warren doyle
06-25-2007, 21:14
Yes, Lone Wolf. Those were the days (sigh).
You mean the days when everyone sort of took it for granted that slackpacking was for weenies? :D
Footslogger
06-25-2007, 21:47
SLACKPACKITO ERGO SUM !!
'Slogger
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2007, 21:57
Shelters suck.
ferryman
06-26-2007, 00:30
Sensation this! How much does 6 rolls of toilet paper weigh totally submerged in water? Not on my watch! After 20 years and close to 18,000 safe hiker crossings at the Kennebec River Ferry Service, the tendency is to divert attention from all the good hikers to those who step out of bounds. Yeah, I could have called the Gulf Hagas and Abol Bridge at Katahdin Caretakers and even Baxter State Park officials, to give a "heads up" on the "Chapel Hill Renegades" who hike unabashed towards the summit of Katahdin. But Why? Life has a way of settling the score. As "fifty cents" said "I think that doing the right thing, good things happen for you." When I saw those slackpacks sitting on my front porch, part of me was concerned for their well being and that of their family members, the other part of me wanted their backpacks in the back of my truck, driven across the road to the river, load a bunch of big rocks in each pack, then toss them suckers into the full throttle Kennebec River! Welcome to the woods of Maine! Instead, I want to mention who I feel is already the 2007 Appalachian Trail "Hiker of the Year" and his name is Todd "Murphy" Murphy from Plant City, FL. Todd has had two replaced legs that do not hold his mind, his body or his spirit down. I will wager all my money on Todd Murphy to finish the trail in Georgia and inspire millions, including 57,000 returning Iraq and Afganistan US Soldiers with his brave and courageous soul. Special thanks to Emily and "whiskers" for their steadfast support. In the meantime, Until the river runs dry, steve the ferryman
Nightwalker
06-26-2007, 05:30
You mean the days when everyone sort of took it for granted that slackpacking was for weenies? :D
You know, I've never slacked before. But hearing all the people bitchin' about it really makes me want to now! :rolleyes:
fiddlehead
06-26-2007, 06:09
Sensation this! How much does 6 rolls of toilet paper weigh totally submerged in water? Not on my watch! After 20 years and close to 18,000 safe hiker crossings at the Kennebec River Ferry Service, the tendency is to divert attention from all the good hikers to those who step out of bounds. Yeah, I could have called the Gulf Hagas and Abol Bridge at Katahdin Caretakers and even Baxter State Park officials, to give a "heads up" on the "Chapel Hill Renegades" who hike unabashed towards the summit of Katahdin. But Why? Life has a way of settling the score. As "fifty cents" said "I think that doing the right thing, good things happen for you." When I saw those slackpacks sitting on my front porch, part of me was concerned for their well being and that of their family members, the other part of me wanted their backpacks in the back of my truck, driven across the road to the river, load a bunch of big rocks in each pack, then toss them suckers into the full throttle Kennebec River! Welcome to the woods of Maine! Instead, I want to mention who I feel is already the 2007 Appalachian Trail "Hiker of the Year" and his name is Todd "Murphy" Murphy from Plant City, FL. Todd has had two replaced legs that do not hold his mind, his body or his spirit down. I will wager all my money on Todd Murphy to finish the trail in Georgia and inspire millions, including 57,000 returning Iraq and Afganistan US Soldiers with his brave and courageous soul. Special thanks to Emily and "whiskers" for their steadfast support. In the meantime, Until the river runs dry, steve the ferryman
We're still waiting to hear how they got across.
We're still waiting to hear how they got across.
From Fedex's journal.
"[They arrived at the river ~430pm and used a fording technique Slick shoes knew where they formed a chain front to back and pushed eachother along with the frontman (Ant) using a stick pushing into the ground in front of him. Water got as high as their chests!!! Then the chain fell apart and they had to swim for it. With great difficulty and exhaustion they made it to the shore and celebrated on the shore!"
Lone Wolf
06-26-2007, 07:39
sounds like good fun!
TJ aka Teej
06-26-2007, 07:56
Being secure in both by human animalhood and ability, I look forward to safely fording the Kennebec with exuberance and exhilaration in the early morning of Thursday August 2nd. I will celebrate the current coursing past by my legs and caressing my skin for at least the twentieth time. Celebrate sensation!
Ever notice that no one ever suggests that Warren not ford?
sounds like good fun!
Probably needed a bath anyway. :)
warren doyle
06-26-2007, 09:21
Those hikers are hardly hiking 'unabashed' here on WhiteBlaze.
So much for the 'freedom of the hills' or is that why many rangers wear 'brown shirts'?
I suggest you reduce your phone bill and buy a second-hand paperback written by, or about, John Muir or Sigurd Olson to get better grounded or floated.
Happy, unrestricted trails and river crossings!
Jack Tarlin
06-26-2007, 09:57
Geez, and everyone thinks I have it in for Mr. Doyle.
Nope.
He just has a habit of saying really idiotic things here.
For example, I know people who work for the National Park Service, and also people who work in various capacities in State Parks and State Facilities.
Some of them are Park Rangers.
Some of them were brown shirts and uniforms. Some don't. Whatever they happen to wear to work, they're all fine people, doing difficult work for very litttle pay.
But for Doyle to make a flip comment comparing Park Rangers to fascist "brown shirts" is a remark so unkind and so witless that I'm amazed anyone would say such a thing.
Except for someone like Doyle.
We're still waiting to hear how they got across.
And I'm still waiting to hear what part of the downriver lake they crawled to shore at.
warren doyle
06-26-2007, 11:10
"For example, I know people who work for the National Park Service, and also people who work in various capacities in State Parks and State Facilities.
Some of them are Park Rangers.
Some of them were brown shirts"
As I was saying...
The last sentence of my post should have said.
The best way to keep from having our freedoms taken away is to act responsible.I hear what you are saying, but if you have a freedom to choose, then you should be allowed to choose either option. Otherwise it isn't a freedom.
"You can pick A or B. If you pick A, fine, but if you pick B, then we will retract the right to choose, and force you to pick A."
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 11:27
"For example, I know people who work for the National Park Service, and also people who work in various capacities in State Parks and State Facilities.
Some of them are Park Rangers.
Some of them were brown shirts"
As I was saying...
Punk......
Frosty,
When I winter hike Maine, NH, VT and so on down I also carried a full pack all the way. When I got in trouble because of bad weather, or falling through the ice, etc, I had the gear and experience to handle it (prior to winter hiking the state of Maine, I had already winter hiked over 8,000 miles.) There was also a stream in the hundred mile wilderness I refuse to cross. I took the alternate route adding 3 miles to my trip. I did it being safe. It is a little different when you have to ford a very swift river crossing after already hiking 30 miles because all your gear is on the other side. The only way around the Kennebec is a 18 miles (???) dirt road at Pierce pond - 3 miles prior to the River crossing and a 30 miles hitch up to the fork. About 50 miles total.
Crossing the Kennebec River is not certain death as you said. When most hikers cross the river in the morning, the river is normal low. I’ve swam across several times myself. While the dam lets loose is a different story. I had a girlfriend who didn’t believe me the river was that strong while the dam let out. She got to knee deep and could not even stand up. I still would like to know how they got across the Kennebec River while it going????
Finally, I agree with you, that I would not want a regulation on how one should hike in the wilderness, but I’m also about doing things responsible and not involving other people. When they dropped off their backpacks they involved Steve in their hike without even asking or talking with him prior. The backpackers, who know me, know that I am a very safe hiker and I know what I am doing very well. I’ve done a few things that to some may consider a little dangerous but it also something I’ve work up to. I have hiked many thousands of miles in all types of weather before I did Maine/NH.
WolfI agree. I wasn't picking on youk, just using your love of winter backpacking as an example of something many people think dangerous but which youk should have a right to do anyway.
This topic is a very tricky issue because there are three separate hot buttons all going off at once, and things are very muddled.
1. Some of are talking in general terms about the right to have an adventure, even if society things it is a dangerous thing to do.
2. Others are talking specifically whether or not fording is safe. (Most of us seem to fall in the middle of these two issues and are of the opinion that fording is dangerous but people should be allowed to ford if they choose.)
3. And of course there are a couple of us who for some reason respond to anything Warren Doyle says.
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 11:35
There are other issues at play: encouraging other people to take risks that they do not understand and are not prepared for; and stealing, lying, and breaking laws, and encouraging others to do so
[quote=mudhead;374571]http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?01042500[/quote
If my memory serves me correctly, this river gauge is slightly up river from the confluence of the Dead River which flows into the Kennebec in The Forks.
Therefore, The Dead River flow(from 20,000acre Flagstaff lake and tributaries)
is not included in the graph. Depending on rainfall amounts at any given time, this graph should not be used as gospel for what the flow is at the crossing.
An educated hiker is a smart hiker. If anyone here knows this gauge location info differently, please speak up.
"You can pick A or B. If you pick A, fine, but if you pick B, then we will retract the right to choose, and force you to pick A."
On the surface it sounds illogical, but that is the way it is. If somebody drowns fording the kennebec, nothing will probbably happen, but if 10 people drown, or the right person drowns, say a kid, or the son or daughter of an influential person, then the regulators come in.
All I am saying is, everytime their is irresponsible behavior on the trail, there is the risk of screwing things up for everybody. Same can be said for excessive trail majic, drinking bashes in shelters, hiking naked, etc.
Jack Tarlin
06-26-2007, 16:02
He's not a punk, Tater.
Just a middle-aged idiot with a big mouth, at least on the Internet.
He NEVER speaks like this to anyone in person......and for good reason. He knows that if he did so, well, his square dancing career might be shortened.
So instead, he vents his hole on a computer.
Well, I for one am quite happy to say in person what I say here on the Internet:
Mr. Doyle, you're a raging horse's ass. I look forward to telling you this to your face in October at the ALDHA Gatherering, if, of course, you deign to show up.
But if you don't, well that's not exactly a great loss. The organization is doing spendidly without you.
Cookerhiker
06-26-2007, 16:17
He's not a punk, Tater.
Just a middle-aged idiot with a big mouth, at least on the Internet.
He NEVER speaks like this to anyone in person......and for good reason. He knows that if he did so, well, his square dancing career might be shortened.
So instead, he vents his hole on a computer.
Well, I for one am quite happy to say in person what I say here on the Internet:
Mr. Doyle, you're a raging horse's ass. I look forward to telling you this to your face in October at the ALDHA Gatherering, if, of course, you deign to show up.
But if you don't, well that's not exactly a great loss. The organization is doing spendidly without you.
You're too reticent - how do you really feel about him?:D
Hey, this is my 1,000th post on WB.
Lone Wolf
06-26-2007, 16:19
He's not a punk, Tater.
Just a middle-aged man with a big heart, on the Internet and in person.
Mr. Doyle, you're a great man. I look forward to telling you this to your face in October at the ALDHA Gatherering. I hope you show up.
what a nice guy you are jack:)
Hey, this is my 1,000th post on WB.
Congratulations! I don't know how I reached Harpers Ferry before you did. It must have been momentum from junk posts to Minnesota Smith Update, 1st ed. that got me to the other side.:o
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 17:01
B. Jack, I still think he is a punk--maybe he's a middle-aged punk--but a punk he is!
TJ aka Teej
06-26-2007, 17:36
...is that why many rangers wear 'brown shirts'?
In the Doyle-centric universe he is a Jew and Rangers are Nazis?
Add the Holocaust to the history of Appalachian Trail in Maine and other subjects of which Doyle is completely ignorant.
This thread contains the most contoversial 75 yards+-(depending on the flow)
of the entire 2,175 miles+- Of the entire AT, IMO. Anyone want to 2nd it!
This thread contains the most contoversial 75 yards+-(depending on the flow)
of the entire 2,175 miles+- Of the entire AT, IMO. Anyone want to 2nd it!
I will 2nd the motion presently on this thread!;)
And I'm still waiting to hear what part of the downriver lake they crawled to shore at.
Don't expect you'll hear.;)
warren doyle
06-26-2007, 18:00
The internegators (Holy Trinity sans one, with an added designated potato) return.
Internegators: 4
The unkind, witless, completely ignorant, middle-aged (although 57 y.o. and able to get 60 y.o. senior admission movie tickets), big-mouthed, hole-venting, square-dancing (it's contra dancing), raging horse's a++ and idiot punk: 0
Once again, it must have been different grade school word walls.
Happy safe fording!
Lone Wolf
06-26-2007, 18:26
This thread contains the most contoversial 75 yards+-(depending on the flow)
of the entire 2,175 miles+- Of the entire AT, IMO. Anyone want to 2nd it!
the biggest scardy cats have never forded. it ain't so dangerous
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 18:27
although 57 y.o. and able to get 60 y.o. senior admission movie tickets)
Once again, unabashed about being a thief.
Lone Wolf
06-26-2007, 18:36
Once again, unabashed about being a thief.
oh quit being such a hater tater.:p
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 18:49
oh quit being such a hater tater.:p
L. Wolf, I don't hate him. I just find it slightly nauseating that someone can be so totally self-centered.
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2007, 18:50
I'm through with this thread. He thrives on the attention.
the biggest scardy cats have never forded. it ain't so dangerous
Depends, what time of day, what time of year , how much rainfall.....you know that L. Wolf.:) Could be raging all summer long some years..2005 comes to mind as an all summer long high water year:-?
Cookerhiker
06-26-2007, 19:20
...... Could be raging all summer long some years..2005 comes to mind as an all summer long high water year:-?
Really? I hiked all of Maine in 2005 and had about 6-7 fords as I recalled. Didn't realize it was a "high water year." Wasn't 2004 the year many thrus had to wait by one ford until the waters subsided enough to safely cross?
I zeroed the day Katrina hit Maine and the next day hiking out of Stratton, had an unscheduled ford caused by the hurricane.
Yes I took Steve's ferry across the Kennebec.
warren doyle
06-26-2007, 19:50
I had a nice, safe ford of the Kennebec in mid-August of 2005.
mweinstone
06-26-2007, 20:08
i apologize warren. truly. i got caught up in the negetism. i dont know or disslike you. i said bad things and im sorry. thats not good i know. i liked your presentation and dont know you enough to wright what i wrote. peace to you hiker. see you next thingy you attend. ill be at the feed next week. will you. id like to apologize to you in person.
warren doyle
06-26-2007, 20:37
Thanks Matthewski.
I won't be at the Duncannon event, but I'm sure I'll see you in the future.
Happy trails!
The internegators (Holy Trinity sans one, with an added designated potato) return.
Internegators: 4
Happy safe fording!
Warren, I have a 4 1/2 pound poodle named Zoe that could safely ford the Kennebec early in the morning like you and Lone Wolf do. (95% of the time the dam opens at 10am and on those rare days it opens at 8am it takes high water until 10 or 11 am to get to Caratunk. From then until low water returns late in the afternoon the river isn't safe for Jesus to ford, even on a good day. These idiots arrived at the river at high water and are damn lucky to be alive. I have lived on the Kennebec for all of my 60 plus years and on several ocassoins I have safely forded it while hiking, fly fishing and even while playing "capture the Flag with a bunch of drunken guides". If you know the time of water release at Harris Dam then ford, it isn't at all dangerous but to just ford the river whenever you get there is dangerous, not responsible, and sooner or later will reduce the hiker population with another tragic death or two.
I had a nice, safe ford of the Kennebec in mid-August of 2005.
Is this the same year you had kids ford with you? :-?
Wolf - 23000
06-26-2007, 21:57
I agree. I wasn't picking on youk, just using your love of winter backpacking as an example of something many people think dangerous but which youk should have a right to do anyway.
This topic is a very tricky issue because there are three separate hot buttons all going off at once, and things are very muddled.
1. Some of are talking in general terms about the right to have an adventure, even if society things it is a dangerous thing to do.
2. Others are talking specifically whether or not fording is safe. (Most of us seem to fall in the middle of these two issues and are of the opinion that fording is dangerous but people should be allowed to ford if they choose.)
3. And of course there are a couple of us who for some reason respond to anything Warren Doyle says.
Frosty,
Well put.
Appalachian Tater also has a very valet point, to paraphrase “encouraging other people to take risks that they do not understand and are not prepared for;”. One of my biggest pet pess as always been hikers going out into the wilderness, get themselves in trouble, and then expecting others to bail your ass out; risking sometimes the rescuer(s) lives in the process, ranking up a huge bill that takes away money that could other wise be use to protect the wilderness. That what I feel these hikers did, they went out without knowing fully what they were in store for. If they would have called or talked with Steve prior, he would have told them how strong that current is.
That were I believe we can draw the line between being adventurous and just being reckless - when someone knows what they are doing, the full risk, and the consequences. There have been several hikers that have drown attempting to ford the Kennebec. It is not always safe regardless on how many times you have crossed it.
Wolf
fiddlehead
06-26-2007, 22:20
There have been several hikers that have drown attempting to ford the Kennebec. It is not always safe regardless on how many times you have crossed it.
Wolf
How many? Do you know when? thrus?
ferryman
06-26-2007, 22:20
While the population of The Forks Plantation has 30 year round folks, who have been known to contra dance and square dance on occasion, when the rafting/ kayaking/fishing/canoeing/ and hiking season sets in, over 100,000 adventure seekers visit this area. There are two world class wilderness rivers in the Dead River from Flagstaff Dam and the Kennebec River below Moosehead Lake that have consistent high water flow year round. For example, on opening day of the ferry service (May 18) the Kennebec River was running 11,500 cfs and the Dead was at 6,900 cfs bringing the total to 18,400 cfs. Throw in another 5,000 cfs spring snow melt runoff in the mix and you have over 23,400 cfs cruising past the AT Ferry Service. Where were the "slacker forders" then! (water temp 41 degrees) Let me bring you up to date for today June 27 on the Kennebec River. 12 midnight to 8am 325cfs, 8am to 10am 500cfs, 10-2pm 4800cfs, 2-6pm 6,000cfs, 6-9pm 4,000cfs, 9-12pm 325cfs and the Dead was releasing 499cfs all day from Flagstaff dam. These flows are subject to change without notice ie. Florida Power and Light can please a few stockholders by cranking the turbines for peak power "right now" to keep the air conditioners running down the East coast. In mweinsteins' quest to be "king of the concrete jungle" does he really give a hoot about a AT Hiker setting up to ford or "flippin' the switch." Therein lies the problem because anyone who declares to be deliberate in his or her approach to fording will earn him and herself a master's degree in DOA (Dead on arrival), however, it will be documented as a heart attack because drownings are bad publicity for businesses in this town. In regards to the recent "adventurous" hikers who arrived sans packs at the Kennebec River, I felt at the time and still do, that the red flag had to be thrown on the hiking field to not only put those hikers on notice but to keep some sense of order for the remaining 1,000 hikers we will be assisting at the Kennebec into October. Unconfirmed reports indicate that at least two hikers pulled out on the Caratunk side 2 miles downriver from the crossing where a large cookout was being held and they yogi'd some burgers before dragging their wet sloggy slackpacking butts to a waiting limo driven by the "King of Slack" himself, Mr. Warren Doyle. Yes, the packs remained untouched right where somebody dropped them. Keep on rollin' ferryman
fiddlehead
06-27-2007, 00:55
So, how many have drowned, in say, the last 10 years?
Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 07:13
There have been several hikers that have drown attempting to ford the [/COLOR][COLOR=black]Kennebec
oh really? names and years.
oh really? names and years.
Nobody knows cause they lie in the watery tomb of the unknown forders known as Wyman Lake
Typically they were solo.:(
Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 07:37
Nobody knows cause they lie in the watery tomb of the unknown forders known as Wyman Lake
Typically they were solo.:(
well it's been said before, more people have been murdered and raped on the AT than drowned in any body of water on the AT. if there's such a big concern at the kennebec then the ferry service should run 12 hours a day or a bridge built.
warren doyle
06-27-2007, 11:41
Woodsy (post 120) Q: Is this the same year you had kids ford with you?
A: No, in 1995 my two children (Heather - 11 y.o.; Forest - 9 y.o) forded the Kennebec with me. They have grown up to become young adults who don't believe everything our 'leaders' tell us to believe.
Wolf-23000 (post #121)"There have been several hikers that have drown attempting to ford the Kennebec."
That's news to me. I know of only one. Can you support this statement with some names and dates?
Ferryman (post #123) "Unconfirmed reports indicate that at least two hikers pulled out on the Caratunk side 2 miles downriver from the crossing where a large cookout was being held and they yogi'd some burgers before dragging their wet sloggy slackpacking butts to a waiting limo driven by the "King of Slack" himself, Mr. Warren Doyle. Yes, the packs remained untouched right where somebody dropped them. Keep on rollin' ferryman."
What? I have no idea what you are talking about. Please don't hurt your credibility with untrue statements like this. You don't have to resort to this kind of mean-spirited posting to support your concern about the safety and wisdom about fording the Kennebec. You have been and still are a good human resource of the Appalachian Trail experience in Maine.
ferryman
06-27-2007, 12:44
Warren, I have bent over backwards to be kind and gentle towards your philosophy of fording the Kennebec. Your opinions are based on twenty days at the Kennebec, mine on 26 years living and working the Kennebec and Dead rivers here in The Forks. Just tell me when you want to turn up the volume, otherwise keep your dam-related opinions to yourself! Steve Longley
Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 13:50
Unconfirmed reports indicate that at least two hikers pulled out on the Caratunk side 2 miles downriver from the crossing where a large cookout was being held and they yogi'd some burgers before dragging their wet sloggy slackpacking butts to a waiting limo driven by the "King of Slack" himself, Mr. Warren Doyle. Yes, the packs remained untouched right where somebody dropped them. Keep on rollin' ferryman
pretty stupid thing to say. how many times have you actually forded where the trail crosses, steve?
warren doyle
06-27-2007, 14:17
I was only responding to your untrue, mean-spirited comment about me, Steve.
I wasn't questioning your knowledge of the Kennebec.
Of course, you have more general knowledge of the Kennebec than I. That's a no-brainer.
I do have knowledge/experience in fording the Kennebec and knowing when it is relatively safe to do so.
However, your vast experience on the river does not excuse you from being challenged for making a false statement.
Why did you not comment on that?
If the roles were reversed and I posted something untrue about you, I certainly would have apologized rather than responded the way that you did.
minnesotasmith
06-27-2007, 14:31
The internegators (Holy Trinity sans one, with an added designated potato) return.
Internegators: 4
The unkind, witless, completely ignorant, middle-aged (although 57 y.o. and able to get 60 y.o. senior admission movie tickets), big-mouthed, hole-venting, square-dancing (it's contra dancing), raging horse's a++ and idiot punk: 0
Once again, it must have been different grade school word walls.
Happy safe fording!
Without it, it's just a made-up BS word, for which anyone's definition is as valid as anyone else's.
My current definition for this insult Doyle likes to use:
"Someone who has seen thru Warren Doyle, who understands how unethical and bad for the AT in every way he is, who looks forward to the day WD is forgotten like a case of the trots 20 years back, and whose points Doyle can't begin to refute"
That thus certainly makes me a proud "internegator". Anyone else? ;)