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Yankee
10-08-2003, 15:53
It just goes to show you....

ANCHORAGE, Alaska, Oct. 8 — A self-taught bear enthusiast who once called Alaska’s brown bears harmless was one of two people fatally mauled in a bear attack in the Katmai National Park and Preserve.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/977560.asp?0cv=CB10&cp1=1

MOWGLI
10-08-2003, 16:58
Last I knew, there were no Brown Bears along the AT.

It has been a bad week for "animal experts" though, hasn't it?

Yankee
10-08-2003, 17:01
no kidding

icemanat95
10-08-2003, 17:03
Wild animals are WILD. Treat them like Teddy Ruxpin and they are going to show you just how wild they can get.

What a moron that guy was.

The only thing that put humans at the top of the food chain was our ability to create tools and tactics that tipped the odds in our favor. Those who neglect to understand this and use their brains and the tools those brains created to gain parity and eventual superiority over other predators, will eventually be victimized by those other predators.

smokymtnsteve
10-08-2003, 17:11
well he was wrong ...He really wasn't a brown bear expert...

Saluki Dave
10-08-2003, 18:18
Experts apparently taste good.

TJ aka Teej
10-08-2003, 19:22
I heard that two bears were shot? That's a shame.

TJ aka Teej
10-08-2003, 19:26
Originally posted by TNJED
Last I knew, there were no Brown Bears along the AT.

Just the one on Bill Bryson's book jacket ;)

Saluki Dave
10-08-2003, 21:17
By RACHEL D'ORO, Associated Press Writer

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - The graphic sounds of a fatal bear attack were recorded, Alaska state troopers discovered Wednesday while reviewing a tape recovered near the bodies of a wildlife author and his girlfriend.

Trooper Chris Hill said Timothy Treadwell may have been wearing a wireless (news - web sites) microphone likely activated when he was attacked by the brown bear at Katmai National Park and Preserve. The videotape has audio only; the screen remains blank for the three-minute recording.

"They're both screaming. She's telling him to play dead, then it changes to fighting back. He asks her to hit the bear," Hill said. "There's so much noise going on. I don't know what's him and what might be an animal."

The bodies of Treadwell, 46, and Amie Huguenard, 37, both of Malibu, Calif., were found near Kaflia Bay on Monday after an air taxi pilot arrived to pick them up. The pilot contacted the National Park Service and state troopers to report a brown bear was apparently sitting on top of human remains at the campsite.

After rangers arrived one of them shot and killed a large brown bear when the animal charged through the dense brush. Rangers and troopers later killed a smaller bear apparently stalking them.

ga>me>ak
10-09-2003, 05:36
Hey Vern, think there's any bears in this dark cave?? Let's go in an have a look.........people and brains- what can you say

manzana
10-09-2003, 07:57
Originally posted by TNJED
Last I knew, there were no Brown Bears along the AT.

It has been a bad week for "animal experts" though, hasn't it?

According to Siegfried, the tiger was simply trying to help Roy. Perhaps the brown bear was simply trying to help too.

Blue Jay
10-09-2003, 08:03
Iceman, I agree that this couple may have been morons, but bears are not predators of humans. Well, maybe during the last iceage. The only predators of humans now are microorganisms and other humans. If bears are left alone they rarely attack. Even Brown Bear attacks are usually cases like this one, a human doing something stupid and the bear being killed.

Don
10-09-2003, 08:12
FYI, Treadwell was the author of the book AMONG GRIZZLIES which documents his experiences living in close proxmity to bears in Alaska....check out the reviews on Amazon...

icemanat95
10-09-2003, 09:16
Originally posted by Blue Jay
Iceman, I agree that this couple may have been morons, but bears are not predators of humans. Well, maybe during the last iceage. The only predators of humans now are microorganisms and other humans. If bears are left alone they rarely attack. Even Brown Bear attacks are usually cases like this one, a human doing something stupid and the bear being killed.

Blue Jay,

You are obviously and patently WRONG. Brown Bears are, like most predators, opportunistic. If something strays into their territory and acts vulnerable, it becomes prey. This is obviously the case here. This idiot was attacked and killed in his own campsite. He didn't attack the bear, it walked into his campsite, killed him and his equally daft girlfriend, and then commenced to eating them. Sounds like a classic predator-prey situation.

Do Brown Bears actively seek out human beings for food? Hell no. Humans are big enough and through the use of tools, have taught Browns to be wary of man, but if a human intentionally gives up those advantages and demonstrates that they are not a threat and are unable to defend themselves, that bear is going to re-think his or her position.

Also part of the equation is the time of year. This time of year Alaskan Browns are stocking in fat reserves for the winter. They are apt to reclass nearly anything as food if they feel they aren't sufficiently prepared for winter.

Humans tend to overcomplicate a lot of things that are very basic. We tend to imprint our own ideologies onto things that are absolutely independent of human philosophy. That is the case here. Both the victims and you are forcing your personal philosophies of animal "goodness" and "harmlessness" onto a situation that is not determined by your philosophies. Animals operate on instincts and limited cognitive assessments of immediate cost-benefit. Ethics, morals, philosophies, ideal situations, etc. play no part in their lives, all that matters to them is whether they are scared, hungry, cold, sick, injured, comfortable, warm, healthy, and otherwise likely to find a mate. If they are hungry, and a human being stumbles into their path, does not apparently represent a threat or appears vulnerable to predation, guess what? They become food. SImple as that. Sometimes the bear is wrong in its assessment and ends up getting shot, sometimes it is correct and ends up with a full belly.

Coyotes and wolves, hell even rats and pigs will make a meal of a human if that human appears vulnerable to them. Predators, by their nature, prey on things that are vulnerable to them. Small animals can and will attack larger animals if they can make conditions favor them. It's really that simple. If you can fill your belly with it and only take on a minimum of risk doing so, then you do. Humans are the only species on the planet sufficiently evolved that we can and do bypass this basic law if we choose.

Lone Wolf
10-09-2003, 09:20
The bear sensed they were PETA fools.

Ankle Bone
10-09-2003, 09:35
Iceman: I knew I could be a bear meal, but you didn't have to remind me that I could also be a mate!

icemanat95
10-09-2003, 10:04
That would be unpleasant.

Blue Jay
10-09-2003, 11:34
We are arguing semantics here. Far more bears are killed by humans, than the other way around. We are clearly the predator, it's not even close. I have no philosophy of animal and human "goodness" or harmlessness" in fact it tends to be the other way around. I'm just tired of scare tactics (now it's pigs???). Treadwell liked to "hang out" with Browns, Roy liked to make money off Tigers. They paid the price.

smokymtnsteve
10-09-2003, 11:48
If this guy really was a bear expert he would have known that you are not suposed to feed the bears....:D

dionalaniz
10-09-2003, 11:52
It just seems like common sense what iceman is saying. Sure, "Human + Gun = Human predator, bear prey". In that situation you're right Blue Jay. Humans are the predator. However, "Human + No Gun = Bear predator, human prey". It's pretty darn obvious once the gun is gone big teeth and claws win.

Sans gun, we are the prey and we should behave as is appropriate for prey to behave. First common sense rule prey should obey is "avoid your predator".

I'm not going to carry a gun on my upcoming thru-hike. However, I will be behaving in a manner that is appropriate for prey to behave - avoid the bears in every way i can.

Treadwell forgot which side of the prey/predator fence he was sitting on without a gun. I feel especially sad about his girlfriend. From the reports, she was more timid and apparently a bit more apprehensive about the whole situation. Sounds like she understood the reality of the situation - she was prey surrounded by predators. Unfortunately, it seems she got convinced otherwise and didn't listen to her instincts.

smokymtnsteve
10-09-2003, 11:59
Dion ..I just run into a bear jut south if wayah bald,,,,was moving along pretty fast hoping to get to the tower on wayah before some rain moved in(by the way I made IT)...ran up ona bear ...was right on top of it before I saw it ot it saw me...scared the sh8t outof the bear and it took off running ..I tried to catch up to it ..but they move fast....

black bears are not predators..esp. not human preadtors....they are actaully very shy animals

dionalaniz
10-09-2003, 12:12
I think the reason they're shy is because along the AT they've learned that we, humans, can kick the living bejeesus out of them because we've got these big loud bang sticks that hurt real bad and make their buddies fall over and die.

However, bears out in the remote wilderness of Alaska do not know this lesson and if one insists on purposely putting oneself into a vulnerable situation with such bears eventually one of them will figure out that, even though you're not on their usual menu, you are indeed easy prey.

It's sheer arrogance that makes a human think that bears want to be our friends or in any way shape or form care about us at all. Treadwell would walk up to wild bears and talk to them - "Oh Quincy. Remember last summer when you were hungry and could have eaten me? But you didn't? You're such a good bear."

Bears do not give a damn about us, they are not our friends, and it is grotesque arrogance to think otherwise. Bears are beautiful dangerous wild animals that will, under the right conditions, prey upon us. To forget that is to show disrespect to bears and all wild animals.

Save the bears. Leave them the ****** alone!

smokymtnsteve
10-09-2003, 14:32
black bears are not predators at all...they do not hunt...they are mainly savengers.....veggietarins...grubs worms..berries....thier biggest food is acorns and nuts in the fall...not people or even animals.... black bears are naturally shy creatures... and besides they sleep at lot inthe winter...

ganj
10-09-2003, 17:36
regardless if they are predators or not, black bears do attack people every year. These attacks could likely be avoided, however bears are unpredictable and dangerous.

dionalaniz
10-09-2003, 17:56
A healthy amount of fear of bears is a good thing. People like Treadwell who make films of himself "petting" wild bears and anthropomorphising them in various ways (talking to them, etc.), and guided tours that get people up close, and unprotected, to wild bears, is utter disrespect to nature.

Bears, and nature in general, *WILL* kick your ass. That's neither bad nor good. That's just the way it is. To try to turn nature, or bears, or tigers, into some cute cuddly "shy" playthings that are at our entertainment disposal is the utmost hubris of humans.

That doesn't mean I want to kill bears or go show them who's boss or carry a gun on my next hike. But it does mean I need to treat these beautiful creatures with the proper respect and understand that out in the woods I am a potential target.

Treadwell showed the utmost arrogance by trying to project onto wild bears human emotions, feelings, and behaviour patterns. He tried to have a "relationship" with these bears. This is arrogant because it assumes that the bears want to have such a relationship with us, which they don't. Bears just want to do bear stuff and hang out with other bears. They don't give a crap about us and if we try to push the "let's have a loving relationship" thing too far, as Treadwell did, they'll make us pay for this arrogance.

I think that people who try to cast similiar human qualities onto bears such as shyness and kindness are, to a similiar degree, engaging in the same arrogance as Treadwell. In human land we value kindness and being good to one another and not hurting our fellow living beings. And we look at a beutiful creature like a black bear and we want to also call it good, and thus we begin to attribute these same human values of goodness on bears - bears are shy and kind and wouldn't hurt their fellow living beings.

But such thinking is not cool or kind to bears. Actually, it's very insulting to bears to think that they give a damn about what we have deemed "good" in our society.

If a bear is hungry enough to overlook the fact that you are not on his normal menu and he guages that he can kill and eat you with no injury to himself he will do so. That's neither bad nor good. That's nature. To try and project one's onw value system onto bear behavior, and nature in general, is just plain rude.

smokymtnsteve
10-09-2003, 18:06
NO FEAR..... black bears are naturally shy creatures...they don;t eat fresh meat.....well cept for those three bears in the smokies that ate that lady back in mayof 99 but there was something fishy going on there..but bears are nothing to be scared of...

now wild hogs...now there something to be careful of...and they don't sleep alot in the winter like bears.

icemanat95
10-09-2003, 21:51
Yeah Blue Jay, Pigs will eat ANYTHING, and it doesn't need to be dead. Domesticated pigs are safe enough so long as you aren't stupid enough to starve them, but wild pigs are a whole different issue. Wild pigs will attack humans without too much hesitation. In the South, wild pigs are a SERIOUS problem. Ranchers, landowners and others hunters are encouraged to kill them in as large a number as they can manage, boars, sows and piglets. The normal rules for ethical hunting are largely suspended since a wounded animal is likely to be attacked and killed by his or her fellows and will not procreate successfully.

Brown Bears are predators.

That is a factual statement. On a case-by-case basis, predators will prey upon anything that they feel is vulnerable to them, whether, under other conditions, they might themselves be preyed upon by that animal or not.

Wolves will not normally prey upon bears, but it happens when they come across a vulnerable bear and their numbers are great enough. SIngle wolves have been known to take on Grizzlies when conditions are right.

Humans do kill Grizzlies and lions, and tigers and leopards and mountain lions, crocodiles, etc. They use firearms that give them an advantage in range to do so, often taking their prey by surprise. But one thing that is taken for granted in hunting dangerous game, is that if you let the quarry know you are there, you are in serious trouble if you miss.

Brown bears, polar bears, mountain lions, sharks, Orcas and wolves are predators by nature. They find sustenance by attacking and killing other animals. If a human being appears to be prey to a large predator such as these, that human is in serious danger, no matter how many bears, mountain lions, wolves, etc. that person has taken during hunting season.

Blue Jay
10-10-2003, 07:43
It is absolutely amazing the lengths people will go to justify killing things for fun. "Hunting dangerous prey", give me a break. Just admit it, you like killing things. It's OK, it's legal. Just don't BS about how scary the woods are because of lions and tigers and pigs, oh my.

smokymtnsteve
10-10-2003, 09:10
the killing of pigs is not just for fun...pigs are exotics not belonging to the natural landscape..and doing enviormental damage to native flower species...hence thier population needs to be controlled....not that we have so many pig attacks on humans....

we have more pig attacks on humans in urban areas..where there is no legal pig killing allowed.

Blue Jay
10-10-2003, 09:33
Bees kill many more hikers than bears, plus they are very hard to hit with a Glock, or even a high powered hunting rifle. A very nasty predator, lets be scared of them. Many people are allergic to peanuts. There could be evil peanuts lurking along the trail. Let's be scared of them. Rabid bunny rabbits are everywhere.

Lone Wolf
10-10-2003, 09:41
People have killed more people on the AT than bees, bears, snakes and the oh so scary giardia, combined.

smokymtnsteve
10-10-2003, 09:43
Originally posted by Blue Jay
Bees kill many more hikers than bears, plus they are very hard to hit with a Glock, or even a high powered hunting rifle.


depends on how good of shot you are :D

Saluki Dave
10-10-2003, 18:03
Following excerpt from The Canadian Widlife Service's "Hinterland Who's Who" page at:

http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/hww-fap/hww-fap.cfm?ID_species=53&lang=e


"Black bears are omnivorous and will eat almost anything available. Most of their food is vegetation, especially in the late summer and autumn when berries and nuts are available. Favourite fruits include blueberries, buffalo berries, strawberries, elderberries, saskatoons, black cherries, and apples. Acorns, hazelnuts, and beechnuts are other preferred foods. Insects such as ants and grasshoppers rate high, and black bears will overturn logs, old stumps, and stones while foraging.

Fish, small mammals, and occasionally birds are also on the black bear's menu. In the spring some bears may prey upon newborn moose calves, deer fawns, caribou calves, or elk calves. Carrion of any sort is highly prized and its attractiveness to a bear increases with its degree of decomposition. Of course a tree containing honey is always a treat. Bears drink frequently and are usually found in the vicinity of water. "

Dem canucks, dey no dere bears, eh?