PDA

View Full Version : Need Help with large dog when backpacking



Wise Old Owl
07-03-2007, 01:02
Wow, I read a lot of threads and there is some good information on this part of the site. If you do not have a dog please do not post here. I am in the process of training a large Black Lab/ Irish setter for the trail. I have found several expensive sites for freeze dried dog food. Canned & pouch won't work as this is a 60 pound dog that consumes 1 to 1.5 pounds of food in a day. One can can be 1.5 pounds of meat and just a dinner. On a test he consumed a common Freeze dried stew for dinner. I am looking for good feeding tips that will work for the trail. I have the snack & treat part down cold. How do you folks do it? Please no misinformation, if you have a 15 pound dog as I have done in the past that wont help-will it. This is a dog that stands taller than my waist at 30 inches. Could be a great trail dog as the training continues. How do I feed him, without providing rattlesnake! :-?

mudhead
07-03-2007, 03:53
Wow, I read a lot of threads and there is some good information on this part of the site. If you do not have a dog please do not post here. I am in the process of training a large Black Lab/ Irish setter for the trail. I have found several expensive sites for freeze dried dog food. Canned & pouch won't work as this is a 60 pound dog that consumes 1 to 1.5 pounds of food in a day. One can can be 1.5 pounds of meat and just a dinner. On a test he consumed a common Freeze dried stew for dinner. I am looking for good feeding tips that will work for the trail. I have the snack & treat part down cold. How do you folks do it? Please no misinformation, if you have a 15 pound dog as I have done in the past that wont help-will it. This is a dog that stands taller than my waist at 30 inches. Could be a great trail dog as the training continues. How do I feed him, without providing rattlesnake! :-?




Ask your vet. What parts are you headed for?

Marta
07-03-2007, 04:32
There was a guy going SOBO last year with a husky. The dog got terribly thin before he was switched to a high-calorie food for working dogs. That stopped his weight loss. I don't know the brand, or any other details.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Fiddler
07-03-2007, 09:01
I have a Boxer. His weight varies from 80 to 85 pounds. And he was the runt of the litter. I have not took him for any long hikes, nothing over 10-12 miles. As mudhead said, the best place to start is the vet. Tell him your full plans for the dog. You want to be sure the dog is physically up to this. The vet can advise as to the best food for maintaining health and energy. Get the dog a pack that fits properly and begin training him to carry his own food, the vet can advise as to the proper weight for him to carry. Walk him as often as possible, longer walks if possible, for he must become accustomed to going a long distance every day the same as you.

the goat
07-03-2007, 13:13
i used puppy food for my dog, he's a/b 80-85 lbs. choc lab mixed w/ something massive. i also carried a plastic bottle of canola oil to pour over the food to add calories & fat.

i agree that a properly fit dog pack is key. imo, the mountainsmith dog packs suck.

Rouen
07-03-2007, 16:19
you could try the Eagle Pack "power formula", it's higher in calories.
I'm one of those people who owns 30lb mutts.;)
depending on how long the trip is going to be, you could try dehydrating some meat for added calories.

taildragger
07-03-2007, 17:00
Talk to your vet. I know that my black lab is ~90lbs when he is in shape for hunting season and that we change his diet during the fall and winter since he was at one point hunting as the only dog 3 days out of the week.

Also, one thing to think about if you haven't done so. Keep him outside a bunch, let his pads get tough and the ground will wear down any longer nails that he might have gotten if he lives indoors a lot.

One other thing, this might be an excuse to eat some bacon on the trails and pour the grease over his food, you'll both be happy and full at breakfast.

general
07-03-2007, 17:18
i hike with a 1/2 pit 1/2 red bone hound. he's about 100lbs, and fairly large. he'll go through about 2 quart sandwitch bags a day of science diet puppy food when hiking. he's never lost any weight. big dog, big dog pack. i like the ruff wear packs myself

The Weasel
07-03-2007, 17:50
Wow, I read a lot of threads and there is some good information on this part of the site. If you do not have a dog please do not post here. I am in the process of training a large Black Lab/ Irish setter for the trail. I have found several expensive sites for freeze dried dog food. Canned & pouch won't work as this is a 60 pound dog that consumes 1 to 1.5 pounds of food in a day. One can can be 1.5 pounds of meat and just a dinner. On a test he consumed a common Freeze dried stew for dinner. I am looking for good feeding tips that will work for the trail. I have the snack & treat part down cold. How do you folks do it? Please no misinformation, if you have a 15 pound dog as I have done in the past that wont help-will it. This is a dog that stands taller than my waist at 30 inches. Could be a great trail dog as the training continues. How do I feed him, without providing rattlesnake! :-?

Mark:

I'm not trying to be anti-dog here (and yes, I have my own Lab mix who backpacks short (2-3 day) trips with me. But you raise a critical problem if you're taking a dog:

If your dog is 80#, you can reasonably assume that he has 1/2 the caloric need of a 160# man (yeah, basal metabolisms are different for dogs, who have a higher body temp, but let's try to be simple). For a 6'0" (fairly tall, as with your dog) man at that weight, age 30 (yeah, 5 dog years) BMR is 1500 calories or so. So let's call that 750 for Barko. That's just to maintain weight, assuming no exercise at all.

Second, to haul mass (yeah, meant the pun) for such a man, it takes about 500 calories per mile. If you're walking 15 miles a day, that's 7500 (honest, folks...while rough, this is fairly accurate, and for a rule-of-thumb calculation, supported by a couple of outdoor doctors and nutritionists I've worked with) calories. You may notice that backpackers, after several days, develope fixations on cheesburgers and AYCE. There is a metabolic reason for that, and it's "calorie deprivation." So Barko needs 1/2 of yours, or another 3750, or 4,250 per day.. But almost no one eats 9000 calories a day while doing long distance backpacking, since that's a huge food volume, So let's say it's 4,500 for you, and you (and Dog Breath) will make it up in the towns.

But I don't think it's safe, for a smaller (than you/me) animal (smaller than me is some elephants, sorry) to cut intake in half. So you're gonna want to keep Doggy around 3000 calories.

Now dry protein and carbs both are 4 cals per gram, or about 100per ounce. So Barko needs about 30 ounces of food daily, or almost 2 pounds. For 10 days between resupply, that's a lot. Less is risky, and Barky can't really say, "Hey, Dude. Starving down here. Bad. Weak." He just wags and keeps on keeping on.

And gorging - doggy or human - in towns doesn't really restore lost muscle. It's a rough thing. And weight loss, when fat is gone, goes to muscle loss, particularly the internal organs. As in heart muscle. This is, as Jack Sparrow says, "Not good." It can lead to premature death in Barko. Not right away. But worth thinking about.

He's a great companion, I'm sure. But make pretty damn sure you're not gonna wreck him up. And before you get your vet to buy into the trip, make sure you see a vet who has some idea of what serious long backpacking is like, not from a book. There are good ones in trail towns who can tell you what they think. Listen to them.

Good luck.

The Weasel

RiverWarriorPJ
07-03-2007, 18:40
My pUp is 80lbs & carries about 12lbs in his pack w/no problem....His pack is fairly small, so 12lbs is the max.....if i ever get a job & buy him a new, bigger pack, i'm sure he could do 20lbs plus just as easily....We now have an OutWard Bound pack....
Go 4 it Mark & BlackIrish...

JDCool1
07-03-2007, 18:54
Try Solid Gold brand. It is highly nutritionally adept. Does not require as much as other more popular brands may, making it a lighter load, is natural and will provide plenty of energy. Checkout their site at www.solidgoldhealth.com (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com).

shelterbuilder
07-03-2007, 20:35
...I am in the process of training a large Black Lab/ Irish setter for the trail. I have found several expensive sites for freeze dried dog food... On a test he consumed a common Freeze dried stew for dinner. I am looking for good feeding tips that will work for the trail. I have the snack & treat part down cold. How do you folks do it? Could be a great trail dog as the training continues. How do I feed him, without providing rattlesnake! :-?

I can only tell you what I've done in the past. First, if you're not already, feed a high quality dry dog food - quality does not cost, it pays! Iams, Eukanuba, National (what I feed now) - just make sure that the dog likes it! Second, since I assume that the dog will be carrying all or part of his rations - make sure that the pack fits and is not rubbing anywhere. Third, make sure that the dog's pads are toughened up before you start a long trek. Dogs with injured pads and/or chafe sores are going to burn more calories trying to repair the injury, and may not be as willing to keep up with you and your mileage. And make sure that the dog is adequately hydrated!
That having been said, you will have to increase the dog's caloric intake significantly in order for the dog to maintain muscle mass AND keep up the miles day after day. I have 5 Siberian Huskies, and during the racing season, we feed almost half again as much as during the off season, and by the end of the season, we can still see weight loss on some of them.
Try feeding 1/4 to 1/3 of the daily ration in the morning - well before breaking camp - another 1/4 to 1/3 at lunchtime, and the rest in the evening. Feeding too much at one time can cause "bloat", also known as Gastric Torsion - this is a true medical emergency that you will NOT be able to handle on the trail.
I'm intrigued by the idea of adding cannola oil to the dog's feed, since dogs have a metabolism that runs well on fats. Check with a vet, but this may work very well. An old, famous musher once told me - humorously - that fat and sawdust (fiber) was a wonderful diet for working dogs!!!
Good Luck...and keep the dog on a leash, for his safety and out of consideration for the human hikers!

Marta
07-03-2007, 21:44
Re: adding oil to a dog's rations... Our vet told us to do that for our St. Bernard way back in the late 60s. We had a grease pot in the kitchen and put all meat drippings in it, which went right on top of the dog's food. The vet said if we needed more oil, to pour corn oil on his food.

We also had a couple of Kerry Blue Terriers. The show breeder we bought one of them from fed his dogs quite a lot of cod liver oil. The dogs had wonderfully shiny coats...and unbelievable breath.

Marta/Five-Leaf

The Weasel
07-04-2007, 03:04
Talk to your vet. I know that my black lab is ~90lbs when he is in shape for hunting season and that we change his diet during the fall and winter since he was at one point hunting as the only dog 3 days out of the week.

Also, one thing to think about if you haven't done so. Keep him outside a bunch, let his pads get tough and the ground will wear down any longer nails that he might have gotten if he lives indoors a lot.

One other thing, this might be an excuse to eat some bacon on the trails and pour the grease over his food, you'll both be happy and full at breakfast.

Yes, bring lots of heavy fatty food to add to the 20# you're making an 80# dog carry. This makes sense, especially with a beast of burden that can't say, "hey, folks. Can't we lighten this up a little?"

The Weasel

superman
07-04-2007, 06:48
Wow, I read a lot of threads and there is some good information on this part of the site. If you do not have a dog please do not post here. I am in the process of training a large Black Lab/ Irish setter for the trail. I have found several expensive sites for freeze dried dog food. Canned & pouch won't work as this is a 60 pound dog that consumes 1 to 1.5 pounds of food in a day. One can can be 1.5 pounds of meat and just a dinner. On a test he consumed a common Freeze dried stew for dinner. I am looking for good feeding tips that will work for the trail. I have the snack & treat part down cold. How do you folks do it? Please no misinformation, if you have a 15 pound dog as I have done in the past that wont help-will it. This is a dog that stands taller than my waist at 30 inches. Could be a great trail dog as the training continues. How do I feed him, without providing rattlesnake! :-?

Some dogs lose their apetite... as do some people. The problem is that the dog is using too many calories to allow it to continue. I always split my tuna, sardines etc with Winter to encourage her to to eat. That may not be the best way of dealing with it but it worked for us. When we did town stops Winter liked to watch Animal Planet. If a cat was on TV she would only look at the TV sideways. While I did the laundry and shopping she caught up on her sleep and enjoyed the air conditioning.
I tried to use the post office for Winters expensive food but that didn't work. I found that Winter would eat any of the foods I bought for her so long as I got her interested with a treat. The food issue stopped being an issue when I figured out what she needed which was pretty early in our hike.
Yes, she's still spoiled.

RiverWarriorPJ
07-04-2007, 07:04
.. feed a high quality dry dog food - quality does not cost, it pays! Iams, Eukanuba, National (what I feed now)
Try feeding 1/4 to 1/3 of the daily ration in the morning - well before breaking camp - another 1/4 to 1/3 at lunchtime, and the rest in the evening. Feeding too much at one time can cause "bloat", also known as Gastric Torsion - this is a true medical emergency that you will NOT be able to handle on the trail.

High quality food is a must to lighten the load.."trash in..trash out"
I feed 1/4 in the morn & 3/4's in the eve w/just a small treat @ lunch....I don't feed too much in the AM since dogs, like their ancestors prefer to nap, not hike after a hardy meal..
Good TiPs David..

Nightwalker
07-04-2007, 07:59
I use Purina One, an extremely high-quality food that is found at most all grocery stores. She eats around half of what she ate of the prior brand. Dry dog food can also be dehydrated at low heat, reducing the weight even more, though this is near impossible for an entire thru hike.

Try not to listen too loudly to folks that haven't taken a dog on multiple long hikes. My dog is a better hiker than I am, can do more miles, and doesn't want to come home at the end of a trip. She's obviously been terribly abused!!! :D

RiverWarriorPJ
07-04-2007, 08:09
Dittos on the "Purina One"

Uncle Silly
07-04-2007, 12:07
Ditto on the puppy food --it's usually a higher caloric content and includes milk fat. My pup is 65# or thereabouts, packed her own food, and had a great time on the trail. Her resupply was a 9# bag of puppy chow (whatever brand was available; I probably used Purina most, but can't recall exactly) and 4-6 of the foil packs of wet food (usually Iams or Pedigree, whatever I could find at the time). Her dinner was a quart-size ziplock of dry food (approximately) topped with a foil pack.

I had good results with the Kelty Chuckwagon pack. The pack we started with (Mountain Gear? Granite Gear? I'm not sure now) sucked.

CherrypieScout
07-04-2007, 12:09
I hiked with a large adult Border Collie, My vet told me to feed her puppy food - higher calories for the weight.
I also feed her beef jerky - the people kind. It was cheaper and more light weight than doggy jerky. Seh would share my pasta at night.

Gaiter
07-04-2007, 14:43
my dog is only 50lbs, she hiked for a month w/ me last summer before i sent her home, half-way through that month i switched her to puppy food, it has higher calories than regular dog food. so for your dog look for a puppy or working dog formula (hunting stores a resource for a working dog formula)

also i supplemented her food w/ zuke's power bones (at 50lbs she got 3-4 a day), which are 'endurance treats' www.zukes.com

this is the best article (in my opinion) for hiking w/ dog, it talks about food http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/{D25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1}/fido.pdf

frieden
07-13-2007, 11:19
Ed is a 71 lb. Belgian Malinois. He carries 5-7 lbs. in his OutwardBound pack. I feed Ed ProPlan at home, but he gets cat food on the trail - vet approved, mountain SAR tested. :) It is much lighter than dog food, and higher in nutrition. In towns? Steak stew, treats, etc. Plan plenty of days off (tent to keep costs down), and include some play times, which is good for both of you. Carry a toy that is lightweight, good for fetch, tug games, and goes right into the clothes washer.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-13-2007, 11:29
Not a dog person now, but was in the past. I fed my dog puppy chow with oil added when hiking on the advice of a vet who was also a long-distance hiker himself. My dog was fairly small (35 to 40#), but his dog was large enough for a small child to ride.

frieden
07-13-2007, 12:11
Not a dog person now, but was in the past. I fed my dog puppy chow with oil added when hiking on the advice of a vet who was also a long-distance hiker himself. My dog was fairly small (35 to 40#), but his dog was large enough for a small child to ride.

Did you find the oil added too much weight?

7Sisters
07-22-2007, 01:13
I've backpacked about 1/4 of the trail with my yellow lab. He's now too old to backpack with me, but the days spent on the trail with him were the best. I fed him three times a day - to ensure he kept his energy up and didn't deplete and burn out late in the day.

I fed him a dry formula which was specifically designed for working dogs. Had a lot of calories per serving so I didn't have to give him huge servings. I got the name of the food from my vet.

Try doing an internet search on foods for working dogs

LIhikers
07-30-2007, 17:52
My wife and I sometimes hike with our 80 pound shephard. At home he is fed a dry food that gets water added a little before meal time, which is 3 times a day. When we hike it's the same routine but I think my wife switches to a dry puppy food of the same brand.

JAK
07-30-2007, 18:17
"Black Lab/ Irish setter"Interesting combination. My grandfather first had an Irish Setter, followed by a Black Lab. Spent lots of time hunting and fishing with both. Dogs and people are both pretty amazing for their endurance and stamina compared to most animals, and have thousands of years of shared evolution together. Of course some breeds are better than others for long distance hikes, but some people are better than others also. Dogs metabolism is interesting to study. Similar to ours, but different. Greater lactic acid tolerance, and of course they don't consume carbs like we do. I would imagine they are much better at converting protiens into energy. I wouldn't neccessarily expect a hiking dog to eat like a dog sled team though. Their fat burning metabolism might be similar to ours, but I'm not sure about that either. I would imagine their digestion of fats is very different, as their digestive tract is considerably shorter. I would find out how much fat they can consume while hiking, and what sort of fats are digestible, and how they should be mixed with their food. That might help reduce the payload. The other thing to watch out for might be hip problems, which Black Labs are prone to.

JAK
07-30-2007, 18:41
Here is an article on dietary needs for working dogs.

http://www.mushwithpride.org/FeedingWatering.htm

Main thing seems to be to switch to dog food with more energy per pound, not just to save weight but also so that the dog can digest what it needs if its burning more calories. There is a section on adding fat that is interesting. They would likely need some period of adjustment. Of course unless you are one of those super-endurance atheletes your dog won't be working like a sled dog. This might mean similar food, but less of it. As with people, I would look at increasing the dietary fat if the animal was getting too lean looking. Also, as with people, perhaps even more so, water is much more critical than food.

Adam B
09-13-2007, 15:40
Hi, mark you are getting some pretty wide advice here, so I thought I would drop some pointers. I have a 95lb ridgeback mix service dog who is fed a homemade diet, pretty close to what I eat and he consumes more calories then I do at 130lbs.

The first and most important thing is to determine the caloric requirements. If you go to http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm and type in the info you can get a pretty good idea. Afterwards you will need to assess, is the dog loosing or gaining weight. You said you have a 60lb dog so the MER would be in the range of 1180-1260cals. Remember MER is only a base amount to fuel the body with no illness, extreme weather or activity. You sound like you are talking about a moderate work amount so you multiply MER by 1.5 for a total of 1770-1890cal. For extremes in weather you need to times 1.25-2 depending on the weather conditions. Assume moderate weather extremes and moderate work load and you must multiply MER by 2 for a total of 2360-2520cal. Do you understand now how to determine the dogs caloric needs?

The next factor is a ratio of fats to carbs to protein. Since my dog has moderate working life normally I like to maintain a higher protein and fat levels. I usually feed a ratio of 60/15-20/20-25 respectively. You would be wise to stick with those ratios. Dogs must have higher fats then humans.

Then next important factor is minerals and vitamins. You will have a near impossible time providing this in proper amounts on the trail. Go to your vet a request doggy vitamins, otherwise health issues will result.

I use a mix of nuts, peanuts and seeds as treats and you can save quite a bit of weight by feeding this. Timber's daily norm is 2oz peanuts, 1oz nuts, 1oz seeds but that can go up in ratio to his caloric needs. I toss 1-2oz of freeze dried liver in also.

So the question becomes what to feed. If you use the trailmix above you can discount about 650cal from the diet. You could feed a mix of whole grains, freeze dried fruit, veggies and meat. If you grab some completely defatted peanut or other nut flours you can suppliment with that. Fresh raw fish is great and you can just gut and toss them a small one a day. Don't debone or remove head the can and should eat it. If you cook it you must debone and remove head though.

Here is what I do for my guy when hiking. I feed 2-4oz peanuts, 1-2oz nuts, 1-2oz seed and 1-2oz lambs liver as snacks. I have the same minus the liver and less peanuts. I catch fish for both our dinners, cut a fillet off for me and toss him the rest. I bring grains that I cook, I like teff and other smaller grains because it take only a few minutes to cook. I freeze dry some fruit and mix it in the trailmix. I usually have at least two pieces of fruit per day. I pick wild greens were I can and if not the I rely on my vitamins. I add about 2oz dried yeast. Whenever we are near town I buy some yogurt and feed that also. Sometimes he gets other meats and raw bones when near town. He also gets 1 brazil nut a day.

So hope that helps, my only warning in this is so healthy for your dog and you that you might have a problem feeding regular dog food anymore. Whole food you are looking at about 3% of body weight a day but that can be mitigated by freeze drying. Off-hand my guy carries about 6-12oz of food per day of his trail diet. My only other thought is make him carry his own weight. I can help you work out a specific diet if you want but I need more info before I can.

Good luck on the trail and remember the vitamins if you can't assure proper nutrition.

superman
09-13-2007, 16:31
Winter hiked the AT on the "spoil me rotten" diet. I started the AT having expensive dog food mailed to us but the PO sucks. I found that I had to rely on what was available along the trail for resupply. If dry puppy food was available she got that. If that wasn't available I read the lable and hoped it was good enough. Once all I could get was canned dog food....heavy. Winter carried her dry food. I tried to re-supply every three days which was easier on both of us. I carried and shared tuna and sardines in oil, beef jerky, cold cuts (temps allowing), gorp,etc. Both Winter and I lost weight but not too much. Winter also got special consideration in town stops. Her favorite was when I'd get one of those pre-cooked cheap chickens. She also liked pizza with meat and cheese. It was all good. If it wasn't good enough she would have told me. Incidently, Winter is 11 years old and is still spoiled. :)

wrongway_08
09-13-2007, 18:17
Just remeber for his pack, to break him slow and good! Make sure he has no rub marks, his pack gets washed so it will fit him like a well worn pair of jeans. It takes a long time to break a pack in for a dog. He wont tell you when he is hurting and by the time you can tell, its too late, your dog will need recovery time.

- Rick

Smile
09-13-2007, 18:28
So far, I'm with Weasel's post above.


Also, have you considered leaving him at home vs. the hassle of
a. his health
b. his weight
c. his carrying extra weight to carry enough food
d. not being able to sleep in shelters with your dog
e. resupply not only for yourself but for him?

I love dogs in general, and especially my dog ( who loves to hike!), but I will not hike with him again long distance (30 days or more) It was rough on him, and he's an athlete. :)

bonnermc
09-14-2007, 08:08
Wanted to chime in, but most good advise has given. I have a 45# German Shorthair Pointer. We go weekend hiking 3-4 times a year in Pisgah and on the AT in NC area. I use a Outward Bound pack for him which is well padded and allows you to connect his leash for quick release. Very helpful when you come accross other hikers or wildlife. I don't like to change his diet too much, just increase it a few days before and during. I feed him either Nutro (active dog one) or Purina 1. I read the ingredients and try to avoid Chicken byproducts and too many fillers. I like seeing meat as the first ingredient instead of Corn.

My biggest problem when hiking is monitoring the padding on Patton's feet. Because I use a quick release leash and allow him to scout for me, he tends to run 2-3 times more than I do. He never walks. As such he burns calories much faster. I provide him with treats (salmon or zukes power bones) at regular intervals. Also, he gets whatever I don't eat. Probably not the best to give him scraps, but better than wasting it and he doesn't complain.

If you thinking of getting a dog to hike with, I recommend a GSP. In discussions with my Vet, these dogs are bred for long distance. They require about 10 miles of excersize a day mininum. They are a very active dog that were originally bred to run along side horses on fox hunts. They can go forever, they are very loyal, and great family dogs. I wouldn't get any other breed.

Matt

ChimneySpring
09-14-2007, 08:48
Eukananuba would be a good option, as would Science Diet's Performance formula. Both are designed for working dogs. The bloat issue is a real concern, since eating too much too quickly, followed by drinking a large amount of water very quickly, could be pretty common temptations for a dog on a long hike.

superman
09-14-2007, 09:25
So far, I'm with Weasel's post above.


Also, have you considered leaving him at home vs. the hassle of
a. his health
b. his weight
c. his carrying extra weight to carry enough food
d. not being able to sleep in shelters with your dog
e. resupply not only for yourself but for him?

I love dogs in general, and especially my dog ( who loves to hike!), but I will not hike with him again long distance (30 days or more) It was rough on him, and he's an athlete.

Yes, those are all good points. A + B. I discussed my concerns about Winter's health and weight with a vet after hiking the LT with Winter in "99" with intentions of hiking the AT. I was told not get nervous about weight loss. That would not be how I would recognize a problem since both Winter and I would lose weight. I was told to watch for a change in behavior. C. I just never had Winter carry extra weight...that's what I was for. D. I avoid shelters with or without my dog. E. The only real re-supply problem was when I was trying to get special food for Winter via the post office.
The last point is absolutely important!!!!!! If I were king, I would have everyone who wants to bring his or her dog on the AT to do a long test hike to validate if it will work. The proof is in the putting. It isn't enough for the dog to be physically capable of hiking 15 miles a day over a variety of terrains. The dog has to have the intelligence to deal with many types of new situations. It has to have an even temperament. It can't be a game dog. Your dog MUST be trained for the trail. I have had many dogs over the years of different breeds but Winter was the only one that I would consider bringing on the AT. She made it all look easy. I'd like to take credit for it but it really was Winter. I doubt that I will ever have another dog like her. After all, how often do you find a 5-week-old white German Shepard in the middle of the road?

Smile
09-14-2007, 10:19
If I were king, I would have everyone who wants to bring his or her dog on the AT to do a long test hike to validate if it will work.

Yeah! Then I nominate you for King :)


Your dog MUST be trained for the trail. .... After all, how often do you find a 5-week-old white German Shepard in the middle of the road?

No offense, but a five week old dog would not be considered IMHO a seasoned/trained hiking dog.

As far as the dog carrying his own weight, It never crossed my mind that a human would carry the dog's food, but that the dog would have to pull his own weight with a pack. This is just UL thinking on my part!

I hope this all works out for you and your dog and that you have a great hike :)

Peace,SMile

superman
09-14-2007, 11:17
Yeah! Then I nominate you for King :)



No offense, but a five week old dog would not be considered IMHO a seasoned/trained hiking dog.

As far as the dog carrying his own weight, It never crossed my mind that a human would carry the dog's food, but that the dog would have to pull his own weight with a pack. This is just UL thinking on my part!

I hope this all works out for you and your dog and that you have a great hike :)

Peace,SMile

Winter was 5 weeks old when I found her in the middle of the road. She is 11 years old now.
Some people try to use their dog as a pack animal. That's not a good thing for the dog. Winter seldom had to carry more than 3 days food at a time. When we resupplied and I had to buy a larger bag I carried the differnce or some part of the difference of the amount over her normal 3 day load. Winter is a retired hiking dog now.

Smile
09-14-2007, 11:22
Winter was 5 weeks old when I found her in the middle of the road. She is 11 years old now.....Winter is a retired hiking dog now.

Now that makes more sense :)

Adam B
09-14-2007, 15:24
I think you would be surprised what kind of pack animal a dog could be if trained right. I have had two service dogs now and never owned a car. Whenever I grocery shop my dog and I wear our packs and carry the food home. My pit could easily carry whatever would fit in her pack without a second thought. I even was able to tie extra things to the pack to a limit of about 40lbs and she weighed about 80lbs. She didn't even flinch with those weights. My current guy has a imposed limit (by me) of 50lbs. Admittedly that was only for 15-20 minutes. Plus both of my dogs were able to pull a cart with me in it for a weight of 350lbs with out any difficulty.

All you have to do is follow some basic rules.
1) Never start weight training until they are fully matured.
2) Never backpack more then 50% of body weight.
3) Always use a pack that is properly balanced and rest over the shoulders and never the lower back.
4) Condition slowly and start small.
5) Use a proper cart with long enough traces and brake bars.
6) Respect your dog and don't ask them to do anything that is beyond them.

Be patient and teach them to love it and they will go forever.

Allyson
10-14-2007, 13:10
Purina has a special food - ProPlan, which comes in a large breed formula. Although you're probably not going to take canned food along on your trip, you might want to check into their canned food for home - my dogs love it. I think the best advice so far is check with a vet who is very familar with the real rigors of trail hiking.

My Shepherd-Husky mix actually decreases his food intake on long hikes. Not sure if it was because we didn't bring the canned food with us, only the dried kibble, and he was mad, or if there was something else. He got a lot of my peanut butter and bagels because it was driving me crazy that he wouldn't eat. Extra beef jerky (as a previous poster suggested) might be a good alternative to canned.

frieden
10-18-2007, 17:26
I think you would be surprised what kind of pack animal a dog could be if trained right. Whenever I grocery shop my dog and I wear our packs and carry the food home.

All you have to do is follow some basic rules.
2) Never backpack more then 50% of body weight.

There is a huge difference between going to the grocery, and hiking day after day over rough terrain. I'm sure you weren't suggesting someone try to thru hike with their dog carrying 50% of their bodyweight, but I just wanted to clarify. From what I understand, it is 10-20%. Ed never carries more than 5 lbs (he weighs 73 lbs), but that is just because I don't want weight on him.

shelterbuilder
10-18-2007, 17:46
There is a huge difference between going to the grocery, and hiking day after day over rough terrain. I'm sure you weren't suggesting someone try to thru hike with their dog carrying 50% of their bodyweight, but I just wanted to clarify. From what I understand, it is 10-20%. Ed never carries more than 5 lbs (he weighs 73 lbs), but that is just because I don't want weight on him.

I'd heard 20 - 30 %. 50% seems a bit on the high side. I used to let my 50 pound husky carry about 13 lbs., and sometimes he'd balk at that much. (Then you know who gets to carry it!)

peanuts
10-18-2007, 17:50
its 10 -20% of their body weight!!!

FatMan
10-18-2007, 17:53
Please don't put more than 15% of body weight on your dog. Up to 25% might be OK for a couple of hours, but for a day of hiking I would keep it at around 10%-12%. It is your burden to carry the load. Treat you dog as a guest as he can't complain or leave.

kohburn
10-23-2007, 10:03
dogs are all built differently. different breeds will have different comfort limits for pack loads. a 15% load on a grey hound would be like a 30% load on a pit or rotty since their musculature is different.

Adam B
10-24-2007, 11:09
In reference to 50% weight, I only reach that mark when I am hiking without a hope of restocking, short hauls or training. Never put that amount on a dog without having slowly trained up to that level and never if it can be avoided. I have carried a 100% of my body weight on longer hauls and my dogs have carried 50% on longer hauls, neither is ideal but on certain situation it happens. If the terrain gets rough I have to carry whatever is on the dog so it is in my interest to keep it light.

My dogs all carry a 1.5-2lb harness in their daily life and have a base hiking weight of 10-12lbs on most trips. If you include water and food then the weight goes up. I don't generally thru hike where I have resupply points and I can be gone for a long time. I have to carry or find my food and water. I carry fruit, veggies and seeds dehydrated that weigh about .5lbs a day for both of us and try to fish for our meat but if I know that I won't be catching anything i.e. no water sources, we have to bring 4-6lt of water plus meat which all adds up. It gets lighter the further into the trail we go and generally my dogs packs weigh in at 12lbs when we leave the trail but I would rather my dog have the proper nutrition then starve because I wanted to lighten our packs.

The above situation rarely happens though, I plan our hikes so that we go by water sources at least once in a 3 day period and can carry enough water for a 5 day period. I bring my line and permit and catch enough to feed us. We are travelling to North and west africa shortly and there we will be in desert conditions where I must ensure 6lts a day of water and at least a 5 day supply at any given time. That is 66lbs which will weigh a good 33% of body weight for my currently 100lb dog. Most of the time neither of us will carry it but if something goes wrong my dog is capable of shouldering the weight because of careful vet supervised weight training. If it does happen, then I will make a sledge and drag the weight behind us. Either way short hauls with lots of breaks are needed.

That said there is a simple formula to this, no more than 10% body weight on the dog normally, 30% is the limit of a dog for periodic work and 50% is the extreme for a well trained and conditioned dog in unavoidable conditions and only with a careful eye. Anything over that and you get to carry it instead of the dog. I am not suggesting that other people use this guideline though. All of my dogs have been in perfect condition, extremely well muscled, healthy and vet cleared on joints and muscle problems and slowly trained to handle the weight, if you haven't gone to that extreme with your dog then stick to a max of 30% and try to keep it lower still.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
Adam

Uncle Silly
10-24-2007, 12:29
I'd agree with Adam B on this one. 10% of the dog's body weight if they aren't conditioned to it; max of 30% if conditioned; and 50% as an extreme, for dogs built, trained, and conditioned to handle it. Check with your vet first if you have any doubts.

SteveJ
10-24-2007, 19:54
I'd heard 20 - 30 %. 50% seems a bit on the high side. I used to let my 50 pound husky carry about 13 lbs., and sometimes he'd balk at that much. (Then you know who gets to carry it!)

Yeah, 50% seems too high, even for a working dog...to qualify for it's "Working Pack Dog Program," the Siberian Husky Club of America says that a dog must begin a hike with at least 25% of its body weight, with an ending pack weight of no less than 10%. I think I remember reading that sibes are easily capable of carrying 30% of their body weight.....

http://www.shca.org/shcahp6e.htm

....dogs are different, breeds are different....Phoebe's pack usually weighs 12 - 15 lbs for a weekend hike, with the pack weight varying based on the amount of food she's carrying and the amount of water she needs to carry.

We were out last weekend, and she (and we!) had a ball!

SteveJ
10-24-2007, 19:57
I should finish the thread before posting! Great post, Adam! What kind of dog are you hiking with?

chiefdaddy
10-24-2007, 19:57
I switched my dog to chicken and rice home made and it is working very well at home, I figure instant rice and chicken from a pouch can feed us both. Just a thought. I wanted to make our food double it's duty.

shelterbuilder
10-24-2007, 20:07
Yeah, 50% seems too high, even for a working dog...to qualify for it's "Working Pack Dog Program," the Siberian Husky Club of America says that a dog must begin a hike with at least 25% of its body weight, with an ending pack weight of no less than 10%. I think I remember reading that sibes are easily capable of carrying 30% of their body weight.....
http://www.shca.org/shcahp6e.htm
....dogs are different, breeds are different....Phoebe's pack usually weighs 12 - 15 lbs for a weekend hike, with the pack weight varying based on the amount of food she's carrying and the amount of water she needs to carry.
We were out last weekend, and she (and we!) had a ball!

Sibes - if they conform to breed standard - are not that big physically, but if they are properly trained and conditioned, they can do some incredible things. Carrying 30% of their body weight is not difficult for the breed. It should be noted that many judges in the show ring are favoring a smaller sized siberian, while many of us who use these dogs in the field for mushing and weight-pull prefer a dog who is near (or even a little over) the upper limits of the breed standard in terms of size. A little more muscle mass and bone density can be a good thing under those conditions.

shelterbuilder
10-24-2007, 20:11
I switched my dog to chicken and rice home made and it is working very well at home, I figure instant rice and chicken from a pouch can feed us both. Just a thought. I wanted to make our food double it's duty.

That's a great idea!:D Just remember to have a back-up plan in case one of you decides that they've had enough chicken and rice! (One of my dogs ate lamb and rice for years, then suddenly, she turned up her nose at the stuff, and won't touch it to this day. She just decided that she doesn't like lamb anymore.)

Adam B
10-25-2007, 12:36
My current dog is 3 and a half years old, named Timber and is a cross between a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever and a Rhodesian Ridgeback. He is the result of an accidental breeding and we like to joke that he is a well bred mutt. He has the build of the ridgeback with the coat and sense of humor of the duck toller. At around 100lb and 28 inches at the shoulder he is a large dog. My last personal dog was a pitbull X staff. I work as a working dog trainer and specialize in multipurpose service dogs.

Great to hear the switch to homecooked diet chiefdaddy. You might want to include a few different types of grains and make sure they are whole grains. When your boy is working you should also include liver or kidney for an extra b12 boost. Also if you are not going to feed fruits and veggies then you need to supplement with a multivitamin from your vet or green tripe. If you vary the types of meat you and the dog will be happier and less likely to decide that they don't want a meal one day.

gypsy97
11-11-2007, 11:36
My black lab started off at 75# but lost 10# in 3 mos. I set food down for him whenever we stopped for any length of time. I started out with Puppy Chow but took what I could find in some places. He shared my snacks on the trail, and especially loved slim jims & jerky. He also ate chocolate with no bad effects, and cleaned the cookpot at night-I always left some for him. If I had it to do again I would buy a can of Alpo to add to the dry food at every town stop. He got through the 900 miles we hiked, but I believe it shortened his life by 3 or 4 years. My best trail friend though. He carried his own food, and was responsible for guarding it from the mice at shelters. I never saw a mouse in a shelter we stayed at.