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StevieRay882
10-13-2003, 04:45
Trailplace is back in buisness for those interested in history and the idea of the trail http://trailplace.com check it out.

Blue Jay
10-14-2003, 07:34
Thank you WingyRay.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2003, 10:07
hey lets all go over to wingy's site and put messages on the forums about whiteblaze.net.....he'd love and allow that...

tlbj6142
10-14-2003, 10:34
Done.

Here is what I posted...


For those of you who like information overload, check out these other great online resources...

www.whiteblaze.net (excellent forums, good resupply articles)
www.hikinghq.net (good gear info)
www.backpacking.net (good light weight, and DIY forums)
www.backpackinglight.com (excellent light weight techniques/gear)
www.thru-hiker.com (great articles and DIY stuff)

attroll
10-14-2003, 11:02
I just went to trailplace. As I said in another thread earlier he had demoted me to the status of "guest" because of a topic asking who was going to The Gathering. As a guest you can not do anything. So why doesn't he just delete me? Oh I just realized why. It must be because if he leaves everyone on the site as a guest then it looks like his membership is a lot more then what it really is.

greyowl
10-14-2003, 12:01
You have to take trailplace with a grain of salt. The information is good, though not always up to date. Dan has done a lot of hiking, but recently? It is his own personal soapbox and it is either his way or no way. Never was a member of his group, found the ego's were way too big. Kinda like this place a bit better.

Grey Owl

StevieRay882
10-14-2003, 13:20
There is nothing wrong with Whiteblaze nor is there anything wrong with Trailplace, each serve a purpose. I feel the idea of Trailplace sticking to the traditional values of the trail is a good thing, it makes it unique in its own way. Dan is very educated in the history of the AT, more so than most. Dan has his vision on how he would like his site, and thats his right. Regardless both sites have a wealth of information and I see no reason to not particapate in both. Both sites have seen good traffic in the last few days, is that a bad thing.

attroll
10-14-2003, 13:37
Amen StevieRay

bunbun
10-14-2003, 15:40
Originally posted by StevieRay882
There is nothing wrong with Whiteblaze nor is there anything wrong with Trailplace, each serve a purpose. I feel the idea of Trailplace sticking to the traditional values of the trail is a good thing, it makes it unique in its own way. Dan is very educated in the history of the AT, more so than most. Dan has his vision on how he would like his site, and thats his right. Regardless both sites have a wealth of information and I see no reason to not particapate in both. Both sites have seen good traffic in the last few days, is that a bad thing.

Interesting. But --- a couple questions:
First - who (other than Dan or some of his groupies) has told you that his views are "traditional"?

Second - if Dan is so knowledgable about the Trail, how come he doesn't impart that knowledge to those on his list? Some of the previous "graduates" of his list are the most trail-history-ignorant hikers I've ever run into. Not all of them - but the hardcore "wingnuts" make themselves obvious by their attitude and ignorance.

Third - how long do you think Trailplace will last this time around? The last Trailplace crash released some really vitriolic personalities into the mainstream hiking community.

And then - a comment. I was at the Gathering this weekend and had dinner with Chris Townsend on Sunday. He mentioned that he was putting together a list of good trail information sites for publication in his next book. And that his experience with Trailplace never got beyond the Intro page. His view was that the restrictive requirements for participation on Trailplace were unreasonably and unnecessarily dictatorial and exhibited an ignorance of what hiking and hikers were about. Trailplace won't be on his list. YMMV.

Personally, I'd like to see Trailplace stick around for a while. It keeps certain mindsets busy and generally off the more productive forums.

tlbj6142
10-14-2003, 15:45
I really think that if the ATC would just merge the data book and the companion together, the handbook would fade away in a couple of years.

greyowl
10-14-2003, 15:47
I hate to jump in here and I hate to sound like I support this guy. I was on an AT mailing list (not Dan's) and we wasted a lot of bandwidth about Dan and Trailplace. There are a lot of Dan supporters (good for them) and a lot Dan detractors (good for them) and they will never agree on anything when it come to Dan. So let us cool our jets and get back to talking about hiking.

Grey Owl

bunbun
10-14-2003, 15:57
Originally posted by tlbj6142
I really think that if the ATC would just merge the data book and the companion together, the handbook would fade away in a couple of years.

For better or worse, ATC is the keeper of the Data Book info and the arbiter of who gets it - and ALDHA owns the copyright on the Companion. ATC gives the Data Book info to both.

tlbj6142
10-14-2003, 16:04
My bad. I knew they were "owned" by two different groups.

TJ aka Teej
10-14-2003, 17:55
Originally posted by bunbun
For better or worse, ATC is the keeper of the Data Book info and the arbiter of who gets it - and ALDHA owns the copyright on the Companion. ATC gives the Data Book info to both.

The difference being that Wingfoot sells that free info. Without the charity from the ATC, Wingfoot would be out of business.
He sells the info for a profit. The ATC should charge him for it or cut him off. He "improved" his book this year by apparently not just using the free mileage data but by copying the DataBook's entire format, and reportedly is telling people that they no longer need to buy the DataBook "because it's now included in my book."

It's time for the ATC to kick "LeechFoot" back into the gutter.

U-BOLT
10-14-2003, 18:26
I hear he's buttbuddies with "Cry Uncle Or Else" Johnny in Erwin.

U-BOLT
10-14-2003, 20:15
Went to Trailplace an hour ago and tried to post this message:

*********************************
Sources of A.T. info (thread title)

Here are some good sites:

www.aldha.org
www.trailforums.com
www.whiteblaze.net
www.outdoors.org
*********************************

And THIS is what appeared after I hit the "enter" button:

*********************************
Here are some good sites:

www.*****.org
www.***********.com
www.**********.net
www.outdoors.org
*********************************

THEN, after less than half an hour, I went back to the site and the thread was deleted. Wingfoot was logged on.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2003, 20:24
Originally posted by smokymtnsteve
hey lets all go over to wingy's site and put messages on the forums about whiteblaze.net.....he'd love and allow that...

so much for wingy and his love of sharing the trail!

MedicineMan
10-15-2003, 00:00
Seems like the threads on windfoot have become a significant part of the trail history, so many have devoted much time and effort to either dispare or uplift the man and his site, this too has become part of the AT culture.

max patch
10-15-2003, 08:26
Originally posted by U-BOLT
Went to Trailplace an hour ago and tried to post this message:
THEN, after less than half an hour, I went back to the site and the thread was deleted. Wingfoot was logged on.

As I and then later Greyowl mentioned yesterday it would be nice if everyone stopped talking about Wingfoot. These talks are counter productive and continually rehash the same things over and over again.

To correct a couple of misleading posts:

OF COURSE your links to other websites were deleted. When you registered you agreed NOT to post links to other sites:

"The forum is provided as a place of discussion for Trailplace visitors, not as a free advertising bulletin board for other A.T. or outdoor sites. Forum members should avoid posting links to other A.T. or outdoor sites in the forum. If you feel a site is worth mentioning, check with the administrator beforehand for permission to mention it (or better yet, include the site in the links in the "Hiker Resources" section of this website so that all Trailplace visitors can have access to it)."

Wingfoot has a mechanism to post links to Trailplace. It includes links to the ATC and every maintaining club. He even includes links to the ALDHA (despite what some would have you believe), Sgt. Rocks website, and (who knew?!) the Doyle Hotel.

chris
10-15-2003, 08:40
People really should leave Wingfoot alone. Don't go to his site, don't buy his book. Just let him wallow in peace and quiet. Of course, if he wants to make a ruckus, that is a different story.

Peaks
10-15-2003, 08:46
If you follow his site, you will see that he doesn't get many posts. So, just let it die.

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 09:07
Originally posted by Peaks
If you follow his site, you will see that he doesn't get many posts. So, just let it die.

I'm bored.
http://www.trailplace.com/portal/thread.php?id=282

chris
10-15-2003, 09:07
I haven't been there in a while. 2 years, maybe?

TJ aka Teej
10-15-2003, 09:24
Originally posted by max patch
As I and then later Greyowl mentioned yesterday it would be nice if everyone stopped talking about Wingfoot.

If only Wingfoot would stop talking about Wingfoot...

bunbun
10-15-2003, 09:28
Originally posted by U-BOLT
And THIS is what appeared after I hit the "enter" button:

*********************************
Here are some good sites:

www.*****.org
www.***********.com
www.**********.net
www.outdoors.org
*********************************

THEN, after less than half an hour, I went back to the site and the thread was deleted. Wingfoot was logged on.


He must be mellowing. At one time you wouldn't have gotten the chance to go back a half hour later - you'd have beeen "deleted" as soon as you posted that. What you got back (the ***** stuff) was an automatic deletion trap for certain words/letter combinations. At one time (and possibly still) my name was one of those combinations that was banned from his site. He got right annoyed when one of his journal writers thanked me for helping her with her AT thruhike prep. It may be coincidence but was just after that time that he started setting up the deletion traps. I'm not a great believer in coincidence. :rolleyes:

As for leaving him alone - I do. I NEVER initiate a conversation about him. And when I do comment, I tell only the bare minimum of truth. I have no sympathy for those who tell derogatory tales about him - the truth is quite sufficient. I also have neither sympathy nor mercy for those who would whitewash him. If you don't want me to talk about him, then don't bring him up in conversation. If you want to keep your illusions intact, then don't put them out where someone will step on them.

chris
10-15-2003, 09:49
Who was your rancor directed towards? I can't imagine my post could have brought this out of you, but it seems fairly well aimed at me.

I'm not trying to whitewash him or demonize him; just a proponent of ignoring him. I have no illusions of who or what Wingfoot is and so there is nothing for you to step on. I honestly do not care if you talk about him or not. He is one of the more visible entities on the AT and so is certainly a legitimate topic of conversation. But, I do think that if people would simply cease to recognize his existence, the subject of Wingfoot would die a solitary death. Life would be rosy and a lot of snotty emails and posts could be avoided. Now, how to deal with the whole Walk in the Woods thing...

U-BOLT
10-15-2003, 10:04
Max Patch wrote:

"OF COURSE your links to other websites were deleted. When you registered you agreed NOT to post links to other sites"

Duh, Max Patch ... only CERTAIN links were deleted, such as "Whiteblaze," Trailforums," and "aldha." The outdoors.com (AMC) was untouched. Apparently, the words Whiteblaze and Trailforums are considered obscenities at Wingnut's forum.


And THIS is what appeared after I hit the "enter" button:

Here are some good sites:

www.*****.org
www.***********.com
www.**********.net
www.outdoors.org

bunbun
10-15-2003, 11:17
Originally posted by chris
Who was your rancor directed towards? I can't imagine my post could have brought this out of you, but it seems fairly well aimed at me.

I'm not trying to whitewash him or demonize him; just a proponent of ignoring him. I have no illusions of who or what Wingfoot is and so there is nothing for you to step on. I honestly do not care if you talk about him or not. He is one of the more visible entities on the AT and so is certainly a legitimate topic of conversation. But, I do think that if people would simply cease to recognize his existence, the subject of Wingfoot would die a solitary death. Life would be rosy and a lot of snotty emails and posts could be avoided. Now, how to deal with the whole Walk in the Woods thing...

OK - I'm confused. First because there's no rancor in what I wrote - that burned out years ago. And second because "Chris" wasn't even on the radar screen - what I wrote about whitewashing was generic, not specific to any one person. Lastly, WF is, by his own desire and choice, a public figure and as such, subject to public comment and debate. Me and thee seem to agree about that - and about the desirability of an early death for the subject.

Hmm - Walk in the Woods? -- a suggestion - take it as it was meant and laugh at it. :)

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 11:33
http://www.trailplace.com/portal/thread.php?id=285

here's a copy of the post there, as i'm sure it'll be deleted soon.

odd

I just posted a message a while ago that asked wingfoot a direct question, and now not only is the thread gone, but I can't post using that username.

It must have been some screwy thing with my username, so I registered again.

I'll also ask my question again, too.


----------------

other sites

Hey Wingfoot.....

How come when people post about sites, you censor them?

I'm sure you'll delete this thread. I'll repost it though, until you give an answer.


www.*****.org <- a l d h a
www.yahoo.com
www.***********.com <--this says www.t r a i l f o r u m s.com
www.google.com
www.**********.net <-- w h i t e b l a z e
www.outdoors.org

chris
10-15-2003, 11:40
Originally posted by bunbun

As for leaving him alone - I do. I NEVER initiate a conversation about him. And when I do comment, I tell only the bare minimum of truth. I have no sympathy for those who tell derogatory tales about him - the truth is quite sufficient. I also have neither sympathy nor mercy for those who would whitewash him. If you don't want me to talk about him, then don't bring him up in conversation. If you want to keep your illusions intact, then don't put them out where someone will step on them.

This seemed directed fairly squarely at my post. I was suprised that my innocuous post could have brought about your response, so perhaps I misunderstood.

Oh, and Chris is my real name, so there is no reason to put it in quotes.

Jack Tarlin
10-18-2003, 19:56
Greyowl said, in speaking of another website, that "the information is good, though not always up to date."

Thank you, Greyowl, for cutting right to the heart of the matter. The Trail changes a good deal every year, especially when it comes to businesses, facilities, and service providers. It is imperative that, as much as is possible, trail and off-trail information be as accurate as can be, but this is difficult to accomplish without first-hand (i.e. non-relayed or secondhand) information about the contemporary Trail.

Greyowl has missed a significant point in his comment. It's easy to say "the information is good, though not always up to date." I think it'd be more accurate to say that "information that is not up to date does a limited ammount of good."

U-BOLT
10-19-2003, 12:49
It would be even more accurate to say "old information is bad information" or "old information is disinformation" or "old information can lead you down a rabbit path from whence you may never return."

Or, "Wingoot these days is all talk and no walk."

A-Train
10-19-2003, 18:02
ya'll are just wasting your time. Over here and on trailjournals and other places thousands of thru-hikers wanna bitch about wingy. Just put it to rest already. He doesn't come on these sites and bother everyone here so why do we have to keep this ranting that accomplishes nothing.

I guess there is no escaping Bryson and Wingfoot convos.

Lone Wolf
10-19-2003, 21:41
Once again A-Train is right. Dan is passionate about the AT. We all got a place. Let's get along! My last liberal moment.

bunbun
10-19-2003, 21:59
I'll be happy to leave him alone if he'll stop trying to speak for me.

Lone Wolf
10-19-2003, 22:01
How does he speak for you bunny?

steve hiker
10-19-2003, 22:09
He's the voice inside our head.:rolleyes:

Or is that voices? Nah ..... there is only one God!

greyowl
10-20-2003, 08:24
As Jack Tarlin said, "information that is not up to date does a limited ammount of good." This is so true. I am a section editor for the companion the information for the my section of the trail is accurate as of September 1, 2003. At least ALDHA makes an effort to give a snapshot of the trail once a year. Dan has tried to do so in the past, but currently a lot of his information on the trail has not been updated as frequently as it should be. His other advice about gear and the hiking is good, though Dan seems to think there is only one way to hike the trail and that is his way. As a through hiker friend of mine says HYOH (Hike Your Own Hike). So I guess those are my major problems with Dan.

As an interesting sidelight. For the past four years I have asked a number of through hikers how they heard of the trail and what modivated them to hike. Dan was not mentioned very often, ALDHA was mentioned more often and Kathy's Applachian Trail webpage was mentioned even more often and the number one sourse? Bill Bryson! Oh well maybe Jack will take time and write his story. I would predict it would be a best seller.

Grey Owl

bunbun
10-20-2003, 09:50
Originally posted by L. Wolf
How does he speak for you bunny?

I didn't say he speaks for me, LW - but he tries to. Or should I say "claims" to. Not acceptable.

smokymtnsteve
10-20-2003, 10:20
Originally posted by Jumble Jowls
He's the voice inside our head.:rolleyes:

Or is that voices? Nah ..... there is only one God!

so I guess now we can call him WINGGOD...

capehiker
10-20-2003, 12:46
Just wanted to say how glad I am to have found this place. I've been out at sea for essentially the last three years and when I left, Trailplace was shut down. I look forward to reading the posts and I recognize a few names from other AT forums. It's a great atmosphere in these forums and I hope my .02 cents will help every now and then (I'm mostly a reader).

I'll admit I was a Trailplace fan when I first found the site, but lost interest after Wingfoot and I got into a discussion that wasn't in agreement with his philosophy. I have gone back into his forums just to see if there are any different thoughts or ideas out there. Except I find myself scrolling through Wingfoot's page long diatribe's. So, imagine my delightment when I found this site off of a link. I'm definitely enjoying this forum most off all. Thanks again for a great alternative to Trailplace.

BiteBlaze
10-20-2003, 14:00
If Wingnut had hiked the Himalayan Trail instead of the AT, he'd no doubt be ensconed in a cave in the clouds right now, dispensing tidbits of Wisdom to a few select devotees after they've risked life and limb to reach his lofty throne and kiss his feet.

smokymtnsteve
10-21-2003, 11:45
As some of you may know my guru is john stienbeck..this from "Travels with charley"

"what we knew is dead,and maybe the greatest part of what we were is dead. What's out there is new and perhaps good, but it's nothing we know."

MedicineMan
10-22-2003, 01:39
Honestly when I see a post(s)(ing) that is of the aberrant side of hiking (well I think this fantasy love you all have about Wingfoot is aberrant even if I can't spell it) AND I see that our (that 'our' means a lot!) Baltimore Jack has responded it is to his response I go first. There is a madness of anyone who would hike the AT in a thru-hike fashion more than once, more than twice, more than three times and the madness becomes calumny, after the fourth or the fifth time it becomes angelic, and then the sixth and the seventh, like Seiko, you Baltimore Jack would be most welcome at my breakfast table.
In graduate school I did a poll (unofficial I say) of over 300 people in the town of Athens, GA. It took in commoners, professors and everyone in between.
In the poll I asked, that if you could be transported back in time to 7 places for 48 hours to observe, where would you go?
I think truly that I would love 48 hours with you Baltimore Jack, your madness, your genius, your love/passion/need for the AT is something that intrigues me, and yes I would entertain the notion of spending 2 days on the trail with you to see it through your eyes. Blah blah blah, but yes you are writing the book aren't you? If not you do us all a disfavor, actually an insult. I will never thru-hike but I have done Sams to Spivey 17 times-a madness all of its own, but you Baltimore Jack have a tale to tell and why not let us Whiteblaze members be at the signing?
So it is to your reply I go with haste, of course Seiko is not here but if he were then maybe you would be second, nontheless because of your virtue in numbers, your are the crowned king....none of this to be taken as effrontery my friend but only remarks out of curiosity...how could a man walk this trail 7,8 times? Need an editor? I can't spell but I do know a comma splice when I see one and also a parenthetical conjuction!
I hope you are laughing!

steve hiker
10-22-2003, 04:24
Just who is this Baltimore Jack and why do you worship him?

Pedestrian
10-22-2003, 06:30
Do a search on Jack Tarlin.

Here is his member biography:

8 Hikes of entire A.T since 1995, including 7 consecutive Northbound thru-hikes, 1997-2003. Am primarily interested in helping and assisting first-time thru-hikers with their trip planning and preparations, and am always available to do so.

I too am a waiting for the book.:)

Lone Wolf
10-22-2003, 07:48
All it takes is time and money plus no commitments and you too can hike the AT 1-30 times in a row. I've only done it 5 times. I ain't worthy to be at no breakfast table. hahaha. This s**t is too funny!:banana

Pedestrian
10-22-2003, 12:08
Mr. Wolf,
I have a great amout of respect for you as well. I've always enjoyed your posts.

A-Train
10-22-2003, 14:36
There are a bunch of AT hikers in the community who choose not to be noticed or lionized for their accomplishments. Sure you hear about BJ and Warren Doyle and Seiko (kinda) but there are folks out there like Lone Wolf who have many miles and don't brag or really care about what they've done.
My friend Heald has roughly six thru-hikes worth of miles. He in my opinion is somewhat of a legend, since most of those miles are Southbound, not something many other people can say. Hes not active on the internet and he does most of his hiking off season (early spring and fall). In fact hes making his way south right now, should be in Mass somewhere.
There are folks out there of the legendary status that many of us dont even know exist, and i think thats pretty damn great

Lone Wolf
10-22-2003, 17:02
Heald. Now there's a backpacker. Could care less about the social aspect or the "community" thing. Good guy.

Jack Tarlin
10-22-2003, 18:53
Simva---

Your post was a little overwhelming, but thanx for the kind words, even if they were laid on a little thick.

As to why I've spent so much recent time on the A.T., I'm not entirely sure; it wasn't something I ever planned on, it just worked out that way. But I'm sure not sorry.

And as Wolf has pointed out (more than once I might add!), I am not THE authority or most noteworty person on the Trail or in the Trail community; I never have been nor do I wish to be.....there's no Baltimore Jack website, Trail Stdies Center, Institute, or anything else, no do I have any plans for such things. There are certainly folks who've more miles than me; there are folks who know the Trail better than me; there are folks who go back further than me and have a better knowledge of Trail history, lore, traditions, etc.

That being said, while there are certainly folks who've backpacked or slacked more miles than me, and whose connection with the Trail goes back much further than mine, the fact that nearly all of my A.T. miles have been in recent years puts me in a fairly unique position to talk about the CONTEMPORARY Trail, as opposed to folks whose hiking took place mainly in the eighties or before. The Trail has changed a great deal in recent years, as have the folks who thru-hike. Gear has changed a good deal; facilities and businesses are also very different.

I've chosen to spend a good deal of my free time helping folks with their questions and problems as they plan their first long A.T. hike. This is something I enjoy doing, and I like to think I'm good at it. I hope to continue doing so, by participating in Forums such as this; by circulating articles such as my annual guide on shopping/resupply/lodging on the Trail; by speaking at various hiker get-togethers such as the Ruck or the Gathering, etc. At some point, I may write a book, which will most likely be a comprehensive planning/preparation guide for folks working on their first thru-hike; in my opinion the present published works leave a good deal to be desired, and while there's a wealth of good information on the Internet (especially at www.atconf.org and www.aldha.org), I think it'd help if all this info were in one single place or publication.

In any case, I expect to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere on the Internet this winter, and can always be reached through private correspondence as well. Anyone who has a question or problem they can't get answered elsewhere is welcome to contact me at any time.

Lastly, since I've been away for 6 months, I just wanted to say (again!!!) thanx to the folks who put this site together, and those who administer it and keep it going. This is a great place, and it's very good to come back from Maine and see the site doing so well with so many new names. What we've put together here is a great resource for hikers, and I'm very pleased to be a part of it.

Lone Wolf
10-22-2003, 23:30
No doubt Jack, if you were to write a Thru-Hiker's Handbook/Companion style guide it would be a hit. Do it.

Blue Jay
10-23-2003, 07:48
When you write the book make sure you include which room the dead guy was in, it's driving me crazy (clearly not that far a trip).

The Weasel
10-26-2003, 18:44
Originally posted by Simva the Medicine Man
Seems like the threads on windfoot have become a significant part of the trail history, so many have devoted much time and effort to either dispare or uplift the man and his site, this too has become part of the AT culture.

Yeah, and "shelter mice" are part of the "AT culture" too. Some people think the little buggers are cute despite their fleas and selfish attitude ("let me eat your pack!"), some think they are a pain in the ass, some think they should be killed at the first opportunity, and some just stay the hell away because they are so repelled by them.

If you get my point.

The Weasel

warren doyle
11-10-2003, 19:52
I respect Dan Bruce. He is a giver rather than a taker.
I just wish and hope he can walk the trail again soon!

A-Train
11-10-2003, 23:42
I don't want to open a horrible discussion or be stoned or anything.

I may not agree with most of Wingfoot's points or see eye to eye with him, but there is a certain amount of respect I gain for a person who is so adament and passionate about his views. He's not hurting anyone and he's volunteered a lot, which is a lot more than you can say about most thru-hikers (myself included). He's alright in my book

TJ aka Teej
11-12-2003, 19:33
Warren- Wingy's a 'giver not a taker'?

A-Train - Wingy's a 'volunteer'?

What has led you to believe this?

Jack Tarlin
11-12-2003, 20:08
The subject of Dan Bruce has been hashed to death here and on virtually every other Internet site devoted to the A.T. It's getting a little tired.

Nearly all of the rancor and bitterness that revolves around Dan has to do with folks who have a problem with his website, Trailplace. While the problems and complaints are varied, they tend to involve folks who feel that his control and administration of the website is domineering, harsh, and dictatorial. The most vitriolic of the criticism aimed his way has come, over the years, from folks who were tossed off Trailplace for one reason or another, and who have harbored resentment over this, sometimes for years.

I realize that there may be cases where folks were tossed off of Trailplace for minor or seemingly insignificant things, but the fact is that most of these embittered folks were tossed out after bluntly and deliberately violating set policies of the site that they were fully aware of when they elected to participate in the various interactive options that existed there; in short, this is a privately paid for and privately administered site, with its own series of rules and regulations, ALL of which were clearly known to anyone who signed up as a contributing member there.

I personally have disagreed with Dan over many things over the years, and I expect to continue to do so. This is perfectly natural. I also acknowledge that at times, I've been unhappy with some of the administrative decisions that govern his site. This is one of the reasons I no longer post or contribute there.

That being said, the fact remains that a lot of the complaining about Dan is childish, pointless, and far more mean-spirited than it ought to be---if you don't like the way he runs his site----repeat, HIS site, then don't go there. But if you do, then you should be aware of the various rules and policies under which his site operates. It follows, then, that if one willfully chooses to flout or dis-respect his policies and his requests from members and guests, then one shouldn't be surprised when this angers website administration. In short, don't go there if you don't wish to follow the rules of the site, and don't complain if your refusal to follow these rules makes you unwelcome. But to voluntarily and deliberately break established rules, and then complain when website administratation takes issue with your actions is more than a little childish.


The fact remains is that there was very little carping and complaining about Dan Bruce before Trailplace was created. Up until then, Dan enjoyed a well-deserved reputation as a Trail authority and expert, whose Thru-Hiker's Handbook helped untold thousands of folks plan and execute their thru-hikes. There are, in fact, very few folks who've helped more folks with their trip planning and preparation than Dan Bruce, and nothing can change this. However one may feel about Dan and his website, over the years he has made enormous contributions to the Trail community, and I for one wish that more folks would, at least once, acknowledge this.

As for folks who still spend untold ammounts of time and energy bashing him here, at Trailjournals, on the at-l mailing list, and elsewhere, primarily due to their being tossed off of a website that is nowhere near as popular as it once was-----get over it. There are really more important things to be talking about. At least I'd like to think there are.

A-Train
11-12-2003, 20:27
Teej-What makes me believe he is a volunteer is that fact that he is. Whether you hate him or love him, he's contributed a lot to the AT community. Much of this was before a lot of folks started hiking/caring/contributing to the AT community i.e. the 80's when he was actively hiking. He has apparently by his word volunteered numerous hours of his time, by i assume trail work/maintenance and I know he has devoted a lot of effort to land aquisition such as the Hump Mountains and maybe Bigelow/Saddleback range.
He also has produced a great book that helped me not only day/overnight hike, but successful plan my thru-hike and then yes execute it too.
Like I said at the beginning, I didn't intend this to a full blown rant and rave, I was simply stating my opinion about Wingfoot. I know a million of you hate him, I just have a certain amount of respect and admiration for his work, as I do for anyone else who loves the trail and does something to better it (just like you Teej-for your work on the companion).

TJ aka Teej
11-13-2003, 00:50
The subject of Dan Bruce has been hashed to death here..

Hey there Jack, hope you had a happy birthday,

I know your last post wasn't singling me out, but just for the record, I was never kicked off TP, and I don't hate him. The Handbook, which for several years was little more than the 1990 Philosopher's Guide with updated motel prices, is now enhanced by an apparent cloning of the ATC's DataBook. I don't know about 'untold thousands', but I'm sure it's helped many novice hikers thruhike the AT.

And thanks, A-Train. I didn't know he did trail work. Maintainers are my favorite trail volunteers. But still, I'm not sure I'd call what WF does on TP and with his book 'volunteering.' After all, he does ask for donations, and he does sell a product. I'm not sure what compensation he gets for running his backpacking seminars and consulting with gear manufactures.

The thing that crinkles my brow about his website is all the self authored praise, about which no questions are evidently allowed.

Chappy
11-13-2003, 03:49
Lost respect for WF when he pitched a "printed" tantrum when Bush defeated Gore. Still trying to figure out what that had to do with the AT.

holmbergs
02-15-2004, 10:35
Trailplace has good information and convenient links. I like the shuttle information and the weather links to AT locations. The AT does not have enough good websites, we need them all. Please don't trash a place simply because your opinions differ, look to the greater good of the AT community. Accept each site for what it does well. This site also seems interested in making money and rightfully so. The information at both sites provide invaluable insights, and these sites need our support. This is my first visit to WhiteBlaze and to be quite honest the comments in this thread for the most part seem angry, envious, and a bit out of place for the spirit of the trail.

tlbj6142
02-15-2004, 10:56
This site also seems interested in making money and rightfully so.What? AT Troll is trying not to lose money. There is a difference.

weary
02-15-2004, 11:38
Warren- Wingy's a 'giver not a taker'?

A-Train - Wingy's a 'volunteer'?

What has led you to believe this?

Probably because it's so obviously true, as anyone with the ability to look objectively at things, well knows.

Weary

weary
02-15-2004, 12:01
The last Trailplace crash released some really vitriolic personalities into the mainstream hiking community.


Having been around at the time, Bun Bun is absolutely right. But it wasn't the refugees from Trailplace that were most vitriolic, but Bun Bun, his alter ego, and other Wingfoot haters who responded to even the mildest praise of Trailplace with vitriolic hatred. It got so bad that a third of the members of AT-List left.

Weary

Footslogger
02-15-2004, 12:56
Well ...I must admit that before my wife's 2001 through hike, (and pre-Whiteblaze) the Trailplace website was THEEEEE number one spot to get information on the trail and to plan a thru-hike. Love him or hate him, Wingfoot operated the only real-time chat site at the time. I laugh a bit now in retrospect when I think about the topics like "Cell Phones" and "Dogs" would instigate a cyber riot and irritate Wingfoot to the point of shutting down the entire site for an undermined length of time. Hated it at the time but it's a little amusing now.

I haven't been to Trailplace for a very long time and I imagine that it is still a good information resource, but with Whiteblaze and the various group list services on Yahoo I doubt that it has (or ever will have) the same appeal it once had. That said ...I still do believe that Wingfoot's Thru-Hikers Handbook is one of the most complete AT Guides, along with the ALDHA's Companion and the ATC's Databook, available today.

TJ aka Teej
02-15-2004, 23:38
Well ...I must admit that before my wife's 2001 through hike, (and pre-Whiteblaze) the Trailplace website was THEEEEE number one spot to get information on the trail and to plan a thru-hike.
A lot of other people stranded on ********'s ********** were kept from hearing about the ATC's website, ALDHA Gatherings, the Rucks, the Thruhiker's Companion, TrailJournals, and even Kathy Bilton's original AT webpage and the original AT e-mail list, the at-l.
In my opinion, the web page and e-list in question was a transparent attempt to glorify the exploits of one hiker and to enhance His self authored reputation as an "authority" in an effort to solicit donations and sell a book.
The first half of His last year's guide wasn't bad. But then, I alway have liked the ATC's DataBook.

bunbun
02-15-2004, 23:54
Having been around at the time, Bun Bun is absolutely right. But it wasn't the refugees from Trailplace that were most vitriolic, but Bun Bun, his alter ego, and other Wingfoot haters who responded to even the mildest praise of Trailplace with vitriolic hatred. It got so bad that a third of the members of AT-List left.

Weary


Naah - the problem was a few Trailplace refugees who weren't willing to go with the flow and leave TP alone - their fondest dream was apparently to make at-l over into another Trailplace. They had to continually bring it up and defend it, even though (or maybe because) they knew it was a hot button. As it is here.

Of course, that was an easy way to really piss off some of the at-l residents and badger them into leaving the list, wasn't it? That way, there were fewer voices who knew the reality about TP to tell the truth when the TP refugees trotted out their fantasies about it.

Who ever told you that you were objective, Weary? Especially about TP?
Really???

It wasn't a third of the members that left - it was half. And most of them left because of the arguments that the TP advocates started - and their unending series of replies that ultimately reduced the discussions to microscopic and utterly worthless arguments.

So - how long did you think it would take the guy you were badmouthing behind his back to find out about it, Weary? Sneaky, sneaky, Bubba - but not very bright. And not accurate at all. :D

TJ aka Teej
02-16-2004, 00:04
Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej
Warren- Wingy's a 'giver not a taker'?

A-Train - Wingy's a 'volunteer'?

What has led you to believe this?




Probably because it's so obviously true, as anyone with the ability to look objectively at things, well knows.

Weary
Weary, he's not a "taker"? Much of the content of his last book he got for free, and then he sold it, didn't he? And how, since he takes donations and sells a product, can he be called a volunteer?
Please, refrain from attacking the person asking questions, and try to keep your answer civil while supplying facts if you choose to respond. If it's "so obviously true" you must have facts handy, I suppose.

smokymtnsteve
02-16-2004, 00:06
everybody loves wingfoot

TJ aka Teej
02-16-2004, 00:19
Naah - the problem was a few Trailplace refugees who weren't willing to go with the flow and leave TP alone - their fondest dream was apparently to make at-l over into another Trailplace. They had to continually bring it up and defend it, even though (or maybe because) they knew it was a hot button. As it is here.
It's pretty obvious that the same tactics used to disrupt the at-l are now being tried here on Whiteblaze. Did you notice how old the posts were that Weary dusted off to quote? Seems as if a certain person can't stand it if ******** goes unmentioned for a week or so.

SGT Rock
02-16-2004, 02:41
Just checking in and seeing the flame getting up. If I may interject for a moment something I haven't said in a while - we don't want WhteBaze turning into the anti-WF site. We want this to be a site about hiking the AT and the trail community. Now I know this really is trail community talk, but it is the kind that somehow becomes more inflamatorry than is needed and isn't productive.

Thanks

weary
02-16-2004, 10:51
So - how long did you think it would take the guy you were badmouthing behind his back to find out about it, Weary? Sneaky, sneaky, Bubba - but not very bright. And not accurate at all. :D

I must be losing it, because I don't have the vaguest idea what BunBun is trying to say. "...behind his back?" "sneaky?"

It's always been my understanding that these are public forums open to all. (Well not everyone can participate on Trailplace, but ....)

bunbun
02-17-2004, 15:40
Just checking in and seeing the flame getting up. If I may interject for a moment something I haven't said in a while - we don't want WhteBaze turning into the anti-WF site. We want this to be a site about hiking the AT and the trail community. Now I know this really is trail community talk, but it is the kind that somehow becomes more inflamatorry than is needed and isn't productive.

Thanks

Sgt.Rock –
Between me and thee, let’s get a couple things straight – I’m not into flames and I’m neither anti-WF nor anti-TP. But I am most definitely anti-BS. And I make a lousy target cause I shoot back.

Yeah – I know what Weary thinks – but there’s a lot he doesn’t know. For example, I spent some time on WF’s email list (it was atml back then). I spent nearly a year trying to reconcile Dan with ALDHA and ATC. I failed (see my sig line – it carries a message that applies here). When WF put up his first list of “thruhiker” questions, it was my wife and I who supplied many, if not most, of the answers for him – and he’s still using some of them. My wife was one of those who supplied much of the material for Maine Rose’s book (which WF intended to publish and take the profit from). And when the First Great Cell-phone War rolled over him like a tsunami, my wife and I were his sword and shield (and life raft). As I recall, it was Dec 21, 1997 that we left his list because we were burned out on the shrill, totally senseless cacophony of the arguments. In his last post to us, he said (and I quote) “Please don’t leave, I need you.” Our reply was that we’d be back after Jan 1 - that we needed a break from the flames. Since then there has been no (zero, zilch, nada) communication from him. And I was permanently banned from Trailplace (my response to that, BTW, was mixed emotions – joy and happiness). Still, we’ve worried about and prayed for Dan’s mental stability for years – and for at least the last 6 years we've said openly that he NEEDS another thruhike. In fact, it would be even better if he went to the PCT where his name and face have no great significance and the ego wouldn't be as much a factor. We’ve also continued to tell the at-l membership to hope and pray for the success of Trailplace. And then – as was pointed out to someone else on this forum recently, Trailplace is still listed as "the" Trail-related link in the Thruhiking Papers. But I’m likely to change that soon – I think Whiteblaze might be a better place to send people.

OTOH, I’m not “pro” either. I’ve seen too much of the unnecessary damage that comes out of TP – damage to the Trail, to people, to the culture and community. But that’s an entirely different discussion. And on top of that, I no longer believe that either WF or TP are legitimate trail-talk. They’ve simply become flame-bait and gossip.

It’s that lack of absolute enthusiasm, hero worship and adulation of WF and TP, as well as the unwillingness to accept anybody's whitewash of "anything and everything" associated with WF that labels me (and at-l) as “Wingfoot-haters” in Weary’s eyes. Tough darts.

So – am I anti-WF – or anti-Trailplace? Weary thinks so, but I think you’re smarter than that. If you're gonna believe anything that someone else says about me, I'd suggest you listen to TJ or Warren or Baltimore Jack. Their views are a lot closer to truth.

Finally – there’s the question as to whether Weary intends to import his personal vendetta against me onto Whiteblaze. Yeah – I said “vendetta.” When a man exhumes a four-month-old post, quotes a single line, turns it into a blatant personal attack, and then lies about the people and circumstances involved ----- it carries its own peculiar message. And a very clear message it is.

If you have any questions, I’ll be around. Probably not every day, sometimes not every week. But I expect to be involved with the Trail and the people (especially the thruhikers) for as long as I live.

Now, can we talk about something useful? Like “hiking” - or the Trail - or Springer fever - or even the PA rocks?

Jack Tarlin
02-17-2004, 16:00
I just want to go on record as saying I'm one of the folks who left the at-l mailing list mainly because of continual bickering and nastiness on the part of a very small number of people. It was impossible to go there without seeing the same folks at each other's throats, and it was not somthing I needed to find in my mailbox each day.

I think I speak for a lot of folks when I say that this is NOT something that we want to see happen here, and I hope that the at-l folks who have joined us recently keep this in mind; I agree with Rock that we can have discussions of controversial things here without beating them to death; I also think it's possible to disagree with folks without becoming disagreeable, but most of all, I really hope the rancor and vitriol that permeated the at-l lists dosen't get transplanted here. It contributes nothing to the site and turns off a lot of folks.

bunbun
02-17-2004, 16:13
I really hope the rancor and vitriol that permeated the at-l lists dosen't get transplanted here. It contributes nothing to the site and turns off a lot of folks.

Including me, Jack. It was irritating and disappointing to find that those who "hunted" me over there believe that same behavior would be acceptable on Whiteblaze. And "hunted" IS the proper term.

So when do you leave for Springer?

weary
02-17-2004, 22:12
there’s the question as to whether Weary intends to import his personal vendetta against me onto Whiteblaze. Yeah – I said “vendetta.” When a man exhumes a four-month-old post.

FWIW. I've never had a personal vendetta against anyone -- especially not Jim (Bunbun), who I have an enormous amount of respect for -- especially his knowledge of trails and long distance hiking. I do seem to have a compulsion to correct blatantly unfair statements from time to time, which occasionally gets me in trouble.

Doing so got me kicked off Trailplace once. And has frequently raised BunBun's ire.

As for "exhuming" a four month old post. Some one made a comment about something that puzzled me. I tried unsuccessfully to find the original post, but while doing so something popped up that I thought demanded a comment. I had absolutely no idea whether it was four months old or four hours old. I'm still in the process of figuring out the WhiteBlaze filing system.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
02-18-2004, 01:31
I just want to go on record as saying I'm one of the folks who left the at-l mailing list mainly because of continual bickering and nastiness on the part of a very small number of people.
Our list, the at-l, was transformed from several years of being a quite friendly and helpful 'campfire' in a matter of days after a few folks from another list joined and began posting in an intentionaly antagonistic and disruptive manner. I was guilty of taking the bait and engaging the trolls, an action that didn't help at all. A few cooler heads advised blocking a few email addresses, and letting flames burn themselves out. Good advice, both then and now.

Needles
02-18-2004, 03:30
I'm not certain, but I think I know who Bunbun is, although I don't know if he remembers me. I have been away from all of the AT sites for a while now, I live so far from the AT at this point that getting back to it to hike will probably wind up being vastly more difficult than anything I oculd encounter on the trail, and, well, I suppose I have been getting a bit home sick and thought has brought me to Whiteblaze and back to a few other sites.

If Bunbun is the person I think he is, then he has done a lot to help many hikers and prospective hikers, a very admirable thing. He has also ticked off several people and proven himself to be fairly opinionated and strong willed individual. He has done a lot of good, but like every other human he has done a few things that have hurt, I am sure that anything he has done that has had less than positive effects has been completely unintentional just as I am sure the good things he has done weren't not done with any thoughts of personal gain.

I don't know Bunbun well (maybe not at all) but what I do know of him strongly reminds me of someone I do know reasonably well, Wingfoot. It is said that opposites attract, which would seem to imply that people with a lot in common may repel each other. I would have to say that these two come about as close as possible to prooving this.

bunbun
02-18-2004, 11:16
I'm not certain, but I think I know who Bunbun is, although I don't know if he remembers me.

Your memory doesn't fail you --- and I remember you as well, Needles. It's good to hear from you again. And I'll thank you and agree with what you had to say here. Next time you see Dan, tell him the offer to buy him dinner is still open.

attroll
04-23-2004, 12:55
It has come to my attention that we have dwelled on this subject of TrailPlace and Wingfoot long enough. We do not want to this to turn into a Trailplace/Wingfoor bashing site. We have so much other productive things to talk about then bashing his site. I think everyone should know by now what his site is about after reading the comments of others.

I have decided to close this thread so we can talk about more upbeat and productive things.