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chickadee
07-07-2007, 16:35
2007 Thru-hikers may have to tear out their Data Book’s four pages labeled Pennsylvania this summer. Unfortunately, as of Monday (7-9-07) at midnight, white blazers, may have to re-plan maildrops and blue blaze Pennsylvania’s 229.4 miles as State Parks are planned to close.

Governor Ed Rendell’s budget for Pennsylvania has created a halt in state legislature and will possibly cause the closure of more than 2 million acres of forest in 117 Pennsylvania’s state parks. In Campers hold their breath, a Citizens’ Voice article in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania that ran Friday (7-6-07), feature writer, Michael P. Buffer wrote, “…state parks could be closed this Monday [7-9-07] if Gov. Ed Rendell and the state legislature don’t agree on a budget.”

The disagreement will cause Pennsylvania to lose an estimated 1.5 million dollars of revenue for each week of park closure and much needed mapping, land surveys, and environmental reviews (needed for park permits). So don’t look to Pennsylvania to supply new topography or trail maps.

But Rendell’s budget will not only affect the states income, permits, and mapping this summer. With the exceptions of Norristown Farm Park, Salt Springs State Park, Big Pocono State Park, and Archbald Pothole State Park, which are not run by the state and will remain open, a total of 2300 state forest employees will be laid off. Without “unnecessary” workers, trail injuries will not be treated and calls for emergencies will remain unheard.

An unnamed source from DCNR said that every year on June 30th the state budget is reassessed, but state parks and jobs have never been in major crisis before Rendell’s administration. The source added, with these closures, any access through the barricaded parklands would be prohibited and Park Managers would enforce the blockades.

Furthermore, even if thru-hikers attempted to stealth hike the 229 miles, gates, marinas, and water and sewage treatment plants will also be closed as part of the disagreement. Meaning state park’s water will become even more polluted and your water pumps and purifiers won’t be able to siphon out the extremely unclean and unsafe materials.

Last year, I followed the white blazes through Pennsylvania to the summit of Katahdin. My home state houses Mt. Minsi, Pine Grove Furnace State Park, Caledonia State Park, The Pinnacle, Yellow Springs Campsite, Table Rock, and the great solar showers at the 501 Shelter. From bug spray to coolers of Capri suns, Pennsylvania is where I received most of my trail magic. It is also where I swatted mosquitoes, lost my cell phone, complained about the ankle busting rocks, and I remember a heat wave that left me without water for an entire day. But I never asked my Governor make Pennsylvania look like the state that told thru-hikers: Forget about your 2000 miler patch.

Keep posted at: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/news/newsreleases/2007/0707-closure.htm

Jim Adams
07-07-2007, 16:45
as a Pennsylvania resident that pays taxes...THIS IS BULL*****!!!!!
hopefully someone with intelligence will intervene.
geek

emerald
07-07-2007, 18:02
:-? chickadee, for a bird ordinarily exhibiting such a pleasant disposition, I'm surprised you've let this budget impasse get the best of you!;)

I can't help but wonder, are you nesting on a DCNR unit at this time? If you find this issue so unsettling, you may want to remove yourself to an attractive area along the A.T. on NPS A.T. corridor lands, State Game Lands or perhaps even the Borough of Hamburg's watershed. As you know, birds of all feathers are always welcome at Hawk Mountain Sanctuary too.

This like all things shall pass.

CoyoteWhips
07-07-2007, 18:12
Is this like last year when New Jersey had to close down the casinos?

Tha Wookie
07-07-2007, 18:14
Taking the forest hostage for political battles? How odd.

Doesn't he know that no one cares about the forests?

He should have banned the show Lost instead. That would probably get the supreme court involved.

Lyle
07-07-2007, 18:38
Strange, Michigan DNR is doing the same thing. As of Monday numerous State Forest campgrounds will be closed through the summer supposedly to save money. These are the campgrounds that are unmanned, pit toilets, and hand pumps. They charge $15 per night on the honor system for these sites. Some are backcountry sites, the only legal place to camp on some very popular backpacking trails (they prohibit dispersed camping).

They have warned, however, that they will ticket anyone caught camping illegally - apparantly there is money to hassle the campers.

Purely political BS.

Trillium
07-07-2007, 18:44
Taking the forest hostage for political battles? How odd.

Doesn't he know that no one cares about the forests?

He should have banned the show Lost instead. That would probably get the supreme court involved.
exactly. anytime the Public School system here wants to raise taxes, they threaten to cut out varsity sports; its never failed to get a tax increase.

The Solemates
07-07-2007, 18:45
Taking the forest hostage for political battles? How odd.

Doesn't he know that no one cares about the forests?

He should have banned the show Lost instead. That would probably get the supreme court involved.


now thats funny :)

sparky2000
07-07-2007, 19:55
Hiked thru NJ last year when the parks were posted closed. It didn't make any difference - keep on keeping on.

Flexo
07-07-2007, 20:36
If you want to get things done, close the state run liquor stores!!!

:mad:

teachergal
07-07-2007, 22:57
Doesn't mean that you can't walk there does it?

Also, isn't the AT park of the NPS? Therefore wouldn't NPS trump State Parks and therefore the AT is still open?

rockrat
07-07-2007, 23:32
You can still walk the AT. In Tennessee, Governor Bredesen closed several parks when he first got elected so he could review the budget. When he closed the parks all the gates were closed, so you couldn't drive in, and all the staff were at home so the trails weren't well maintained. Even though this happened it wasn't illegal to park outside the park and still walk the trails.

Lilred
07-07-2007, 23:43
This thread is on here three times. Can admin condense them?

Wonder
07-08-2007, 12:25
exactly. anytime the Public School system here wants to raise taxes, they threaten to cut out varsity sports; its never failed to get a tax increase.

I grew up, and just moved from Philadelphia's western suburbs.
We had to fight, hard, to keep music in the schools........and this is when, Upper Darby, my Alma Mater, was ranked in the top 5 schools in the country for performing arts!

This news realy breaks my heart...for the hikers....and for my friends and family. Many of our greatest memories were made in the state parks...picnics, birthdays, my first kiss.....now other folks will not have options in a land of over-development, and land rape.

This is very depressing news for PA........the Mr. Rendell...I voted for you...now I'm ashamed of it:mad:

Chaco Taco
07-08-2007, 12:48
Gov. Rendell, shame on you!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Chaco Taco
07-08-2007, 12:49
Sound to me like someone needs a good ole ass whoopin!

Wonder
07-08-2007, 12:51
It's a shame, because from what I can remember....he really did a lot of good for philadelphia when he was mayor....and a lot of good for tourism when he was in his last term

Jimmers
07-08-2007, 12:52
Yeah, that's pretty much business as usual for the Republican controlled PA legislature versus the Democrat Governor. We had a $600 million surplus this year, and they're fighting over how to spend it. Neither side wants to compromise. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.:mad:

c.coyle
07-08-2007, 13:09
A shutdown won't affect hikers in Pa., except possibly at the two state parks the A.T. passes through, Caledonia and Pine Grove Furnace. I think they're the only two.

For those of you not from Pennsylvania, not having a budget by the start of the fiscal year is practically an annual tradition, and it stinks. Governor Rendell has b*lls. Sure, he's holding out for some personal sweetheart line items, but most of the problem is self-serving legislators (both sides of the aisle). I predict the General Assembly blinks.

emerald
07-08-2007, 14:05
The A.T. passes through [two state parks], Caledonia and Pine Grove Furnace. I think they're the only two.

Coyle, you forgot Swatara State Park.

ShakeyLeggs
07-08-2007, 14:16
Republicans said they are frustrated at the scope of Rendell's proposals, including huge new funding for transportation, alternative energy programs and public schools.

Also here is a copy of the proposed budget.

http://www.budget.state.pa.us/budget/lib/budget/budget_presentation/2007_08_budget_document.2.pdf

emerald
07-08-2007, 14:39
Yesterday, I spoke with two individuals who would likely have as good an idea as most anyone how A.T. thru-hikers would be impacted by a shutdown. They seemed to think a shutdown would not impact A.T. thru-hiking anywhere.

The official word would come I'd think from ATC at some point. If it were me, I'd continue to hike until instructed otherwise by ATC or a state official authorized to convey or act upon this information.

I'd think there'd be no services available at State Parks. I'd pay particular attention to signage, park management or LEOs you may come into contact with there.

If there's a shutdown, thru-hikers please post anything contrary to what I posted here as I agreed to pass along any problems you encounter to those who need to know in order to keep your inconvenience to a minimum. I'm hopeful you'll have an enjoyable experience in Pennsylvania, shutdown or not.

shelterbuilder
07-08-2007, 16:20
I may be speaking from ignorance (again!), but I'm going to jump in here and add my 2-cents' worth.

First, the AT is a part of the NATIONAL Park Service; it is not a state park, even though, in Pa., it does cross some land administered by the Bureau of State Parks, DCNR, and the Pa. Game Commission. If a budget impasse does occur, there would be no money to pay STATE employees to man STATE-OPERATED FACILITIES (ie - beaches, consession stands, parking lots, first aid stations, etc.), but the AT is NOT a state-operated facility. It is owned by the federal government, and managed jointly by the NPS, the ATC, and the local maintaining volunteer clubs. (Last time I looked, none of these groups were paid by the state.:D )

Second, while the State Parks may lock their gates and close their FACILITIES, I doubt very much that they can stop a thru-hiker from continueing their hike. Who would stop them anyway; all of the state employees would be furloughed!:-? The same would be true for State Forest and Game Commission land.

I don't know if the State Police would be available to respond to an emergency, but then, the responsibility would fall to the next authority down the chain of command (township or regional police departments). The same for fires and medical emergencies - contact the local folks.

ATC is a private, non-profit organization - they will not be affected. Similarly, the paychecks of the local volunteer maintaining clubs will also be unaffected.:rolleyes:

Go and hike your hike and don't sweat the little things like state budgets!

warren doyle
07-08-2007, 16:26
First post: Yeah, I'm still waiting for a Communist takeover, to confront the Taliban in the Roan Highlands, the bird flu, and for computers to save us money.

Hike on. What do state parks and paid employees have to do with preventing us from walking the trail?

I suggest the first poster goes into alarm clock design and development.

shelterbuilder
07-08-2007, 16:40
Now, Warren, don't be too hard on Chickadee - the way the article is written makes it hard to tell what the state plans to do. Once again, the backcountry falls through the cracks of civilization - thank God!:sun

Tipper
07-08-2007, 17:16
Hmmm....I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand what specific impacts state park closure would have on AT hikers. I'm having difficulty remembering how much I relied on state parks during my PA traverse. Help me out with your argument.

Thanks.

Uncle Silly
07-08-2007, 18:52
The bathrooms will be closed?

ShakeyLeggs
07-08-2007, 18:57
Hmmm....I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand what specific impacts state park closure would have on AT hikers. I'm having difficulty remembering how much I relied on state parks during my PA traverse. Help me out with your argument.

Thanks.

Trails will be closed. If you are caught on the AT thru one of the state parks you will be escorted out and fined.

Pennsylvania has 117 state parks and more than 2 million acres of state forest land. All will be closed beginning Monday and will remain closed until a state budget is adopted, with the exception of Norristown Farm Park, which is leased to Montgomery County; Salt Springs State Park in Susquehanna County, which is run by volunteers; Big Pocono State Park in Monroe County, which is run by a concessionaire; and Archbald Pothole State Park in Lackawanna County, which is run by Archbald Borough.


Gates will be closed where feasible.



Temporary barricades will be erected where possible.



The central reservation system will be closed.


Campers and cabin occupants will be required to leave by midnight on July 9th

modiyooch
07-08-2007, 19:00
Trails will be closed. If you are caught on the AT thru one of the state parks you will be escorted out and fined.


Temporary barricades will be erected where possible.


Where did you get this tidbit of info? As another poster stated earlier, which state employees are going to be paid to enforce?

saimyoji
07-08-2007, 19:45
Where did you get this tidbit of info? As another poster stated earlier, which state employees are going to be paid to enforce?


Google much? ::PA DCNR

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/news/newsreleases/2007/0707-closure.htm

ShakeyLeggs
07-08-2007, 20:15
Where did you get this tidbit of info? As another poster stated earlier, which state employees are going to be paid to enforce?

About 2,300, or most, of DCNR staff will be furloughed. About 300 staff members will remain at work, including park managers, district forest managers and salaried rangers. Park managers and salaried rangers will be working enforcement and safety shifts only; state park and forest district offices will be closed.

Yahtzee
07-08-2007, 20:34
So what if you camped in State Land on Sunday, can you be fined walking out Monday morning?

When I first read this I dismissed it as overblown hogwash. Never underestimate a government's ability to make even the most irrational things come true.

ShakeyLeggs
07-08-2007, 20:46
it just now came over the tv 8:45pm that there will NOT be a buget tonight and the layoffs are on. This means the parks we are speaking of will close as of midnight.:eek::mad::( Thank you Republicans.

shelterbuilder
07-08-2007, 21:17
it just now came over the tv 8:45pm that there will NOT be a buget tonight and the layoffs are on. This means the parks we are speaking of will close as of midnight. Thank you Republicans.

Well, all, here's your chance for 1960's-style civil disobedience!! Let's all get out there and hike the State Parks.:D :rolleyes: :banana And I AM a Republican!

rickb
07-08-2007, 21:37
Thank you Republicans

But isn't it a Democrat Governor who is refusing to sign the Budget?

modiyooch
07-08-2007, 21:40
Google much? ::PA DCNR

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/news/newsreleases/2007/0707-closure.htm
yes, I did google the pa parks website and newspapers and did not see anywhere that at hikers would be escorted off the trail and fined. I still don't see it.

saimyoji
07-08-2007, 21:47
yes, I did google the pa parks website and newspapers and did not see anywhere that at hikers would be escorted off the trail and fined. I still don't see it.


Ahh...I don't see that either. However, it does say that rangers will be on call for safety and enforcement. That tells me that they'll at least tell you to get out. Now, if they hassle you, offer to leave via the road you're already headed down. :)

ShakeyLeggs
07-08-2007, 21:51
But isn't it a Democrat Governor who is refusing to sign the Budget?

The problem is that both sides are being pig headed and not willing to come to an agreement. I read the proposed budget that Gov. Rendell sent to the legislature. It looks like it has some good things in it but then again it also has some not so good things. But if both sides are unwilling to compromise we may be in for a long tough road. In my humble opinion what it really boils down to is that the legislature is controlled by the republicans and the Gov is a democrat. And this is a bit of payback for the US gov being now controlled by democrats. But this is getting to political for me. And this should not be a political discussion.

modiyooch
07-08-2007, 21:59
If they were saving $$ by closing the parks, I would understand; but, I believe they said they would lose 1.5 million/wk. How does that even help the situation?

modiyooch
07-08-2007, 22:07
If they were saving $$ by closing the parks, I would understand; but, I believe they said they would lose 1.5 million/wk. How does that even help the situation?
never mind; I see now it involves much more state services than the parks. I hope pa can work out their problems.

Jimmers
07-08-2007, 22:12
Technicalities, as usual. Without a budget passed, the government will only pay "essential" employees, however that's determined. The revenue lost due to the parks being closed doesn't figure into the equation, since the state gets most of its income through taxes, and 1.5 million a day is peanuts in comparison. I'd look for the state law relating to this, but I've done enough research today for school. I'm done sifting through government documents.:cool:

Skidsteer
07-08-2007, 23:35
The problem is that both sides are being pig headed and not willing to come to an agreement. I read the proposed budget that Gov. Rendell sent to the legislature. It looks like it has some good things in it but then again it also has some not so good things. But if both sides are unwilling to compromise we may be in for a long tough road. In my humble opinion what it really boils down to is that the legislature is controlled by the republicans and the Gov is a democrat. And this is a bit of payback for the US gov being now controlled by democrats. But this is getting to political for me. And this should not be a political discussion.

Yeah but you brought it up.

minnesotasmith
07-09-2007, 00:05
Guess this is an indication that PA will be that much longer bringing its section of the AT up to the standards of more-advanced states such as GA, NC, TN, and VA.

Jimmers
07-09-2007, 00:16
Whatsamatta powderpuff, are the little rocks hurting your feet? I thought people wanted a nature experience. Well, there ya go, rocks and all.

Panzer1
07-09-2007, 00:25
I thought that the trail was created by an act of congress. How can the state shut it down. You will be hiking on the trail not the state park.

Panzer

emerald
07-09-2007, 00:33
If you are caught on the AT thru one of the state parks you will be escorted out and fined.

I don't know who you are and would be interested in knowing your source for this information.

emerald
07-09-2007, 01:06
Guess this is an indication that PA will be that much longer bringing its section of the AT up to the standards of more-advanced states such as GA, NC, TN, and VA.

MS, I want you to know I saw what you posted, but it's past my bedtime. You'll need to wait for me to taunt you another day.

minnesotasmith
07-09-2007, 02:59
PA's trail clubs are with clearing rocks out of the section of the AT they've been entrusted with about where the local clubs in NW and ME are with switchbacking trails; no one has explained the concept to them slowly enough in sufficiently simple English for them to understand why trails should have such work done on them to be complete and ready for hikers. I do wish someone would do this, though...:-?

c.coyle
07-09-2007, 06:19
Coyle, you forgot Swatara State Park.

Yes, I did, and it's right in my back yard. Swatara is almost completely undeveloped - a state park in name only.

rickb
07-09-2007, 06:53
The A.T. passes through [two state parks], Caledonia and Pine Grove Furnace. I think they're the only two.Michaux State Forest, too. Not a park, perhaps, but close enoough.

emerald
07-09-2007, 06:55
MS, just read your post. I'd suggest more coffee and less hanging around mweinstone.;) You might also consider donating so you can edit.:D

fiddlehead
07-09-2007, 07:47
latest word from the PA govt. officials is that they are going to keep the casino's open and make the govt. officials in them work along with health care and policeman. But state parks will be closed. Shows you what's important to the politicians, aye?

emerald
07-09-2007, 07:50
What do state parks and paid employees have to do with preventing us from walking the trail?

According to what I read above and elsewhere, there will be some state employees on Pennsylvania's forests and parks for security purposes. Someone employed by Pennsylvania who works in enforcement and with whom I spoke on Saturday didn't seem 100% clear about whether thru-hiking would, could or should be prohibited. State parks, forests and game lands? are closed and I've read people are being asked to leave those facilities. I have not heard thru-hiking will be prohibited.

Warren asks a good question. I'm seeking an answer to that question and hope to acquire accurate information and distribute it to others who want to know.

emerald
07-09-2007, 08:03
I doubt very much that they can stop thru-hiker[s] from continuing their hike[s]. Who would stop them anyway; all of the state employees would be furloughed!:-?

Not everyone SB.

Yahtzee
07-09-2007, 08:05
I still have seen no official statement saying thru-hikers are prohibited from hiking in PA during the furlough. Even if it only applies to the state parks (Caldonia, Swatara..) that would seem insane to me. How can you close down the woods?

Has anyone contacted the ATC on this pt.? Curious to know how this all shakes out. Hopefully, all has been settled as I type.

Jimmers
07-09-2007, 08:06
They're only staying open because the casinos filed a motion to remain open. I doubt the order will stand past the hearing today. Casino enforcement is hardly an "essential public safety " position.

modiyooch
07-09-2007, 08:16
Coyle, you forgot Swatara State Park.
and all the state game lands

emerald
07-09-2007, 08:18
Has anyone contacted ATC?

I emailed Karen Lutz, provided a link to the Class of 2007 thread and requested ATC provide us with information. Someone may want to email Harpers Ferry. Post here if you do. Let's not bury them in email.

I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who has 1st-hand information about thru-hiking at Pennsylvania's state parks. Obviously there will be no swimming or ice cream, but thru-hikers are survivors.;)

When I posted this message, I had already received but had not yet read an out of office reply to my email from Karen.

emerald
07-09-2007, 08:24
and all the state game lands

The funding mechanism is different, but the impact of the shutdown may be the same. I haven't read anywhere that SGLs are closed. Anyone have a link indicating that they too are closed?

emerald
07-09-2007, 08:33
I haven't read anywhere that SGLs are closed.

Just called PGC's Southeastern Regional Field Office. They are operating as usual and SGLs are not at all impacted by the partial shutdown.

Wonder
07-09-2007, 08:39
PA would have a rebelion if they shut the game lands. First off, the state would lose the revenue of Hunting and fishing liscences, and PA is 2nd biggest hunting state in the country..........you don't want a bunch of pissed off mountain men do ya? We're already in a national shortage of game and fish officers

reddog176
07-09-2007, 08:51
Here's an up to date news link: http://blog.pennlive.com/lehighvalley/2007/07/pa_governmernt_partially_shut.html

Looks like they actually went through with it.

Skyline
07-09-2007, 09:01
Rendell is a good man, with agendas many of us would probably agree with. The energy plan that seems to be the sticking point addresses in a legitimate way funding the development of alternative energy sources. The State Senate is just trying to embarrass him. What else are they good for?

Hard to understand how resourceful thru-hikers couldn't continue in their chosen direction. Sure, they may have to be more stealthy but by this point in their hikes most are good at that.

aaroniguana
07-09-2007, 09:05
There was civil disobedience or something going on in the West Shore area of Harrisburg when I came through there at about 11:45 last night. Cops and ambulances by the hundreds on Route 15 near I83. Looked like a riot or something. Strange place for it though, when the capitol is just across the bridge...

Time To Fly 97
07-09-2007, 09:16
Isn't the AT a national park? I wouldn't think twice about continuing a thru hike through PA.

Happy hiking!

TTF

modiyooch
07-09-2007, 09:19
I don't see how AT is a national park. I think that it is an endeavor that goes through as many national, state, and county parks as it can.

Appalachian Tater
07-09-2007, 09:40
I don't see how AT is a national park. I think that it is an endeavor that goes through as many national, state, and county parks as it can.

(from http://www.nps.gov/appa/parkmgmt/partners.htm)

"Appalachian National Scenic Trail

The Appalachian Trail Conservancy (ATC) is the only organization that has sole responsibility for protecting and promoting the A.T. experience. Established in 1925, the ATC celebrates 80 years of caring for the world's most famous long-distance hiking trail. Running 2,175 miles from Maine to Georgia, the A.T. is the nation's longest, most accessible National Park encompassing some 250,000 acres. ATC coordinates its management and protection in conjunction with the National Park Service and Appalachian Trail Park Office.


In addition, the Appalachian Trail runs through 8 national forests, making USDA Forest Service a close partner of the Appalachian Trail as well."

Appalachian Tater
07-09-2007, 09:43
There was civil disobedience or something going on in the West Shore area of Harrisburg when I came through there at about 11:45 last night. Cops and ambulances by the hundreds on Route 15 near I83. Looked like a riot or something. Strange place for it though, when the capitol is just across the bridge...

They were waiting to take away the members of the legislature after the governor kicked their @55es.

woodsy
07-09-2007, 09:44
PA's trail clubs are with clearing rocks out of the section of the AT they've been entrusted with about where the local clubs in NW and ME are with switchbacking trails; no one has explained the concept to them slowly enough in sufficiently simple English for them to understand why trails should have such work done on them to be complete and ready for hikers. I do wish someone would do this, though...:-?

Probably aughta install some diaper dispensers along certain sections of the AT for the few individuals like MS who have pissy pants alot.:rolleyes:

modiyooch
07-09-2007, 10:10
If I was a state employee and I had time off, I would be hiking. It's a shame that they would have to go out of state to hike.

dixicritter
07-09-2007, 10:41
This thread is on here three times. Can admin condense them?

Sorry been a little busy I missed this.... taken care of now. :)

chickadee
07-09-2007, 10:45
I read today that they <i>did</i> close the parks down. Didn't mean to let it get the best of me, just angry when it affects my fellow hikers.

The worst part was that I spent my sunday at hickory run state park near the poconos and they must have already lowered their staff. There were no lifeguards, but children everywhere in the lake, and there were no grounds crews. The garbage receptacles were no where to be found and the garbage bins were filled. The enormous crowd of sunbathers and hikers and disc golfers had just left their garbage on the ground. I ended up picking up a bunch of it.

It's a sad time when our government doesn't care about our environment.

chickadee
07-09-2007, 10:48
Now, Warren, don't be too hard on Chickadee - the way the article is written makes it hard to tell what the state plans to do. Once again, the backcountry falls through the cracks of civilization - thank God!:sun

I'm not sure what they're planning. The shutdown will also affect casinos, drivers liscence centers and other things that rendell calls "non-essential" I'll look into it more. Mainly it is the legislature who is causing the problem they want to cut funding at schools and rendell wants to fix some problems that I guess the state can't afford.

I'll get back to you.

warren doyle
07-09-2007, 10:59
What?

Don't worry about it.

Just keep on hiking the trail.

"Long-distance hikers are always free!"

jmcgarrahan
07-09-2007, 11:12
the shutdown will also affect casinos, drivers liscence centers and other things that rendell calls "non-essential" I'll look into it more.


No it won't affect the State run Casino's they will reamin open, or so the ABC news said this morning.

jmcgarrahan
07-09-2007, 11:12
Oops.. Remain...typo..sorry

berninbush
07-09-2007, 11:20
Here's the latest (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070709/ap_on_re_us/pennsylvania_shutdown_25;_ylt=Al0G8CxYAipPWB1ryaxS 4bsE1vAI).

Note the priorities:

Pennsylvanians discovered they couldn't take driver's license tests. Highway maintenance and a range of permitting and licensing functions were stopped or severely curtailed. Even the lights that normally illuminate the Capitol dome are off, and state tourist attractions aren't open.


Gamblers and employees of the state's five slots parlors got a reprieve when a judge granted a request late Sunday by casino owners to remain open, at least until a Tuesday hearing.

As to whether this is really necessary:


Among the key sticking points in agreeing to a new $27 billion-plus budget are raising the state's debt ceiling and an energy plan that Rendell has insisted the Legislature approve before he signs, they said.
"We have a $650 million surplus in Pennsylvania," said Senate Majority Leader Dominic Pileggi... The centerpiece of Rendell's energy plan would place a surcharge on electricity use for a fund for alternative energy programs and electricity conservation.

Sure folks like the idea of supporting alternative energy programs... but why do you need a new tax for that when you've already got a big surplus?? Was this important enough to make thousands of families suffer from not getting a paycheck, and inconveniencing and ruining the vacations of many others?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-09-2007, 11:34
I have no idea what the issues are in PA (except what I read in the articles from this thread). TN governor Phil Bredesen did this a few years ago on a more limited basis - it got the citizens to scream at the legislators who were refusing to abandon their pet pork projects so a reasonable budget could be passed. Pissed off the rich big time and made us normal folks proud to have elected him.

Jimmers
07-09-2007, 12:10
Here's the latest (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070709/ap_on_re_us/pennsylvania_shutdown_25;_ylt=Al0G8CxYAipPWB1ryaxS 4bsE1vAI).

Sure folks like the idea of supporting alternative energy programs... but why do you need a new tax for that when you've already got a big surplus?? Was this important enough to make thousands of families suffer from not getting a paycheck, and inconveniencing and ruining the vacations of many others?

Surpluses come and go, just ask Pres. Bush.
One of the major problems that Gov. Rendell has been having is finding a dedicated source of funding for SEPTA, the public transit system in SE Pennsylvania. SEPTA currently has no guaranteed state funding, and pretty much lives budget to budget; they receive only whatever scraps the state feels like giving them. And since SEPTA serves primarily Philadelphia the state legislature doesn't feel it should be a big priority. (there's a long history of Philadelphia being viewed as not really part of Pennsylvania by the rest of the state, at least politically. If it weren't for Philly, the state would be solidly Republican)
Rendell has been trying to secure this funding since he entered office, fighting the legislature the whole way. His new energy tax could be used to provide this funding, so the legislature will fight him on it because:
a)It's a new tax
b)Philadelphia's problems are its own, why should we bail them out when they're: wastefull, greedy, corrupt, etc, etc, etc.

Throw in our legislature's incredibly poor track record at fair, open compromises, and the fact Rendell was mayor of Philadelphia, and you get a big sloppy mess. And no one wants to be seen as backing down. Great way to run a government. In grade school.:mad:

ShakeyLeggs
07-09-2007, 12:27
I agree that Philly is part of this mess. I just heard yesterday that Philly is about to sue the state over gun control. This can't be helping the current situation at all.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_top_stories/20070504_Phila__faces_down_state__adopts_gun-control_laws.html

berninbush
07-09-2007, 12:30
Hmmmm....

I live in Houston, another big metropolitan area with transportation issues. But to the best of my knowledge, we mainly fund our own Metro bus/train system. I'm sure it gets some state and federal funding, but primary responsibility rests with the city/county that actually uses it.

Why should the rest of Pennsylvanians fund a system that's of no use to them? Why can't Philadelphia take care of itself?

And even if they need state funding, why not use the existing surplus, at least for this year? If Rendell thinks it's so very important, he can fight to get the energy tax next year, or the next... whenever the surplus is gone. Shutting down state government even for a short time does far more harm.

The admins will have to bump this to the Politics forum pretty soon. ;-)

Ok, back on topic: has anyone tried hiking into a state park today?

Jimmers
07-09-2007, 12:45
berninbush:

Short answer: SEPTA's (http://www.septa.org/inside/history.html) a regional transit system, serving five counties, that the state legislature created. It's name is quite literal: South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
OK, no more politics from me. I'm in a good mood today, and I'd like to keep it that way.:)

Back to parks: I'm willing to bet no one hiking the AT gets stopped. I'm sure the rangers are more concerned with protecting the facilities in the state parks today than monitoring hiking paths.

Johnny Thunder
07-09-2007, 12:49
Hmmmm....

I live in Houston, another big metropolitan area with transportation issues. But to the best of my knowledge, we mainly fund our own Metro bus/train system. I'm sure it gets some state and federal funding, but primary responsibility rests with the city/county that actually uses it.

Why should the rest of Pennsylvanians fund a system that's of no use to them? Why can't Philadelphia take care of itself?

And even if they need state funding, why not use the existing surplus, at least for this year? If Rendell thinks it's so very important, he can fight to get the energy tax next year, or the next... whenever the surplus is gone. Shutting down state government even for a short time does far more harm.

The admins will have to bump this to the Politics forum pretty soon. ;-)

Ok, back on topic: has anyone tried hiking into a state park today?

Dispatched from Murda'City:

SEPTA's opperational budget deficit exists for multiple reasons including, "Pay for Play" politics in city governments, failing/faulty infrastructure, coverage gaps, and sub-planned usage. The largest issue is that for their own reasons not enough Pennsylvanians use SEPTA. So, why keep it operating at this level? Because soon enough their will be a higher demand for public transportation options and without the states initial funding these options will be limited, at best.


Why insert a necessary bill into a deadlocked budget? Why delay a necessary fix? (question with a question)

Pennsylvania's issue: it is too large and with too few urban/commercial/financial centers. Too politically diverse.

Johnny

Ewker
07-09-2007, 13:05
You can still walk the AT. In Tennessee, Governor Bredesen closed several parks when he first got elected so he could review the budget. When he closed the parks all the gates were closed, so you couldn't drive in, and all the staff were at home so the trails weren't well maintained. Even though this happened it wasn't illegal to park outside the park and still walk the trails.


wasn't it Gov. Sundquist who closed the parks?? Gov. Bredesen is the open that reopened them

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-09-2007, 13:31
wasn't it Gov. Sundquist who closed the parks?? Gov. Bredesen is the open that reopened themSunquist closed several parks and Bredesen reopened them. However, Bredesen closed the parks after the state senate and house members refused to dump a lot of pork from the budget during his second year in office. He closed the parks saying we could either have pork or parks, but not both. The closure was brief as the public outcry was swift and strong - parks won over pork and lots of small-time fatcats across TN were really, really upset as their projects got dumped in the process.

emerald
07-09-2007, 13:53
I believe there exists between NPS and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania an agreement known as a memorandum of understanding which is in effect if not in fact a legal right-of-way for the A.T. This document may come into play at times like this to determine whether or not A.T. thru-hiking is permitted on property owned by the Commonwealth when closed to other public access.

I'm not a lawyer and could be wrong about what I just posted and welcome posts from anyone who knows more about this issue. I still say keep thru-hiking until instructed otherwise by an official in a position to speak on this topic or until someone with the authority to stop someone does.

I'm disappointed we haven't heard from ATC. Has anyone called them to ask their opinion on this issue?

As I said before and I don't know if my earlier post was deleted when threads were combined, PGC is funded differently and SGLs are open to hiking of all kinds today. NPS corridor lands managed by ATC and its member clubs for them would also be unaffected as would Hamburg's watershed. I think any problems a thru-hiker would encounter are most apt to occur at Caledonia, Pine Grove or Swatara SPs. There might potentially be an issue with thru-hiking on state forests too.

Thru-hikers In The Green Diamond (Berks County -- slightly less than 25% of the A.T. in Pennsylvania) are encouraged to inquire with BMECC's caretakers Ron and Mick at 501 and Eckville respectively for more information. Ron's a DCNR ranger who can fill in NOBOs on Weiser State Forest. He's requested he be advised of any shutdown-related issues that thru-hikers may encounter.

Lilred
07-09-2007, 13:54
Yeah Bredeson. How crazy is it that Sunquist closed the parks, yet still named one after his wife? That rubbed a lot of TNseans the wrong way, me included.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-09-2007, 14:06
The Martha Sundquist State Forest (http://www.state.tn.us/agriculture/forestry/stateforests/14.html) was named by the state legislature - not Don Sundquist per the state archive (http://www.vic.com/tnchron/archive/Dec02.htm#newforest):
the Tennessee Legislature passed a resolution, which was sponsored by former Sen. Tommy Haun and Rep. Ronnie Davis, naming Tennessee’s newest state forest the "Martha Sundquist State Forest." The resolution recognized the governor’s wife for her work on women’s and children’s issues as well as her efforts to promote conservation and beautification in Tennessee.

Lilred
07-09-2007, 15:59
The Martha Sundquist State Forest (http://www.state.tn.us/agriculture/forestry/stateforests/14.html) was named by the state legislature - not Don Sundquist per the state archive (http://www.vic.com/tnchron/archive/Dec02.htm#newforest):


Still, The Gov closes parks, one gets named after his wife? It still smells fishy, no matter who submitted the bill. We used to have a tradition in this country to name things after places or people who have died, as a historical tribute. Sundquist wasn't even out of office, as he was the one that approved that bill.

emerald
07-09-2007, 16:29
This post is to remind hikers headed to Pennsylvania it's hot here at this time of year. It's been pleasant lately, but today's temperature in The Green Diamond topped out at 91&#176;F and tomorrow 93&#176;F is expected.

Time to practice 10 before 10. Summer's just beginning and it brings with it heat, dehydration and thunderstorms! Strong hikers in a hurry to get through Pennsylvania routinely hike 25 and 30 mile days. When temperatures soar above 90&#176;F, it's wise to hike in the morning and evening hours and find some shade in the middle of the day.

Jack Tarlin
07-09-2007, 16:35
I was in Duncannon this morning. Shades is correct. While some hikers "routinely" hike 25-30 miles in PA, it ain't happening this week. It was close to ninety by noon, and I don't think the next few days are going to be much better. The only thing that's going to happen "routinely" this week in Duncannin is that folks are gonna take an extra zero day at the Doyle Hotel.

icemanat95
07-09-2007, 17:10
In '95 it was upwards of 100 degrees this time of year. It was hitting 105, give or take for about 1 week. We were at the Bleu Blaze hostel and were told we had to either get up good and early and slack pack to the 501 shelter, or stay the day in the basement and night hike out. We hiked with it, one way or the other. It sucked, but we did it. If 90 degree weather is going to slow you down, quit the hike.

Lauriep
07-09-2007, 17:58
To the best of our knowledge, the A.T. has not been closed in any part of Pennsylvania in connection with the recent government shutdown.

Laurie Potteiger
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
Information Services Manager

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-09-2007, 18:07
Thanks for chiming in, Laurie.

emerald
07-09-2007, 18:26
To the best of our knowledge, the A.T. has not been closed in any part of Pennsylvania in connection with the recent government shutdown.

Laurie Potteiger
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
Information Services Manager

See? Nothing to worry about, chickadee. Those thru-hikers should just keep hiking! Standing still won't get them any nearer where they want to go.;)

shelterbuilder
07-09-2007, 18:34
Okay, I'm back from the AT, celebrating my 52nd birthday (YES, I'M AN OLD F*RT) by dropping off a new register at Hertline campsite, by getting out on the trail for the first time since my surgery 2 months ago, and by making a little Trail Magic (ice cold O.J. goes down really well on a 93 degree day).

First, some clerical housekeeping:

to minnesotasmith - I do apologize about the rocks in Pa; the last few years we haven't had enough maintainers to get out there and keep the rocks properly sharpened!

to modiyooch - the Appalachian Trail is indeed a National Park, administered by the National Park Service, and managed and maintained jointly by the NPS and the ATC and by the local maintaining volunteer clubs. The fact that the footpath runs through so many tracts that are not directly owned by the NPS is due to the fact that, when NPS was buying up private land, it sought to protect the trail by placing private land into the public domain. Land that is already owned by another governmental agency (federal, state, county, etc.) is already considered within the public domain, and it is therefore "protected". (At least, that was the idea way back when!) Places where the local clubs had seen fit to route the footpath through state-owned land were left alone. It was largely a matter of funding, I suspect.:D

I personally have not called the ATC, as Shades of Gray and others have suggested someone should - my voice doesn't work too well on the phone anymore!! I could leave an e-mail, but I suspect that Karen Lutz's office is swamped with them. BUT, I was on a small patch of DCNR land today, and lived to tell about it.:rolleyes: There were no rangers lurking behind trees; there was just the bright sunshine, the cool shade and cold running streams, a gentle breeze, the birds, the chipmunks...and hikers! In all, a beautiful day in Pennsylvania!

Go for a walk and enjoy God's blessings!

emerald
07-09-2007, 18:45
I personally have not called the ATC, as Shades of Gray and others have suggested someone should.

Go for a walk and enjoy God's blessings!

SB, take a look at my post right above yours and read carefully, especially the quoted portion.:D

emerald
07-09-2007, 18:50
I was on a small patch of DCNR land today, and lived to tell about it.:rolleyes:

You are a rebel SB!:cool:

emerald
07-09-2007, 18:53
If 90 degree weather is going to slow you down, quit the hike.

Easy for an iceman to say.:D

shelterbuilder
07-09-2007, 19:03
You are a rebel SB!:cool:

You forget that I grew up in the 60's!:banana

Skyline
07-09-2007, 23:50
Y'all can hike in Rocksylvania once more without fear of a Republican State Senator making a citizen's arrest!

The budget impasse is over . . .

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07190/800537-100.stm

Wonder
07-10-2007, 07:52
I sent an email to my friends and family in pa yesterday giving them the link the ATC has provided to fight this bill....... here were 2 of the responses I've gotten back.......

My best friend Gordon:
Hey...THANK-YOU, Sharon, for once again opening my eyes. I don't know if your intention with this email is directly related to my parks' situation but your timing is absolute. The number one favorite part of my son Ben's (your pen pal's) day at camp is swimming at French Creek State Park. Today he came home in tears because there is no more swimming.
Among the greatest joys in my life is gathering with a group of family and friends to toss plastic discs into metal baskets while weaving our way through trees and along creeks. I absolutely love it. It's gone.

My mother(WB name Teama):How interesting that you would send this on a day where the state parks have been closed indefinitely due to lack of state funding along with other state offices ie. driver's license centers etc. But the state stores, lottery and casinos are open. Go figure.

warren doyle
07-10-2007, 09:25
Another AT information superhighway 'much ado about nothing' issue. The web has definitely given greater exposure to the fear-mongering Chicken Littles of the world.

I feel the freedom of long distance hiking is in direct contrast to the stifling repression produced by the 'net' and 'web'.

To paraphrase Abbey, when it comes to the net and web: "Believe little, resist much."

Jack Tarlin
07-10-2007, 11:03
Geez, Warren, if you have so few positive things to say about the Internet or about Trail-related Internet sites, then why do you keep coming back to them, eh?

I mean, it's not like you contribute much here anyway. :-?

In short, if you feel "stifled" and "repressed" here at Whiteblaze, there's a very simple remedy:

Go away. It'll save you having to complain about the Internet, and it'll save us having to read your constant complaints.

Everybody wins!

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 11:20
the stifling repression produced by the 'net' and 'web'.

LOL. You only feel stifled because people call you out on your criminal and anti-social behavior. In real life, people (other than law enforcement) just avoid it.

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 11:21
Is it still allowed to blue-blaze Pennsylvania or is that all called off now?

Jack Tarlin
07-10-2007, 12:11
Everything's fine.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/

As for one being "allowed" to blue-blaze there, well, yeah, you can blue-blaze there if you want.....same as anywhere else! :D

Wonder
07-10-2007, 12:12
Shoot...I just read that they saved 3.5 million by just laying off everyone for 1 day!

Cookerhiker
07-10-2007, 12:15
....I feel the freedom of long distance hiking is in direct contrast to the stifling repression produced by the 'net' and 'web'.
......."

So why do you use the "net" and "web" to advertise your hikes and programs?:-?

Jack Tarlin
07-10-2007, 12:27
Cuz it's FREE, Cooker.

Excellent question, by the way.

Toolshed
07-10-2007, 12:32
[QUOTE=Jimmers;378691]berninbush:

Short answer: SEPTA's (http://www.septa.org/inside/history.html) a regional transit system, serving five counties, that the state legislature created. It's name is quite literal: South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
....QUOTE]
Huh??? I live in SE PA - 5 mins from Buck's County and I have no transit system!!!!
BTFrolickian'W,
We always point the finger at Philly - Bunch of Liberal bastards. And if it hits to close to home we simply shift out pointing direction to Pittsburgh - Bunch of lazy union steelworkers, or Scranton - bunch of no good coal miners, Or Erie - bunch of yahoos that act like Ohioan's. Either way, there's plenty of blame to go around!!!!!! :D :D

warren doyle
07-10-2007, 12:47
Internegator/Holy Trinity = 2

The constant criminal and anti-social whiner = 0

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 12:52
The constant criminal and anti-social whiner = 0

You forgot cheap@55-. Cheap-@55 criminal and anti-social whiner.

Jack Tarlin
07-10-2007, 12:54
Oh, get over yourself, Warren.

You post here about how horrible and repressive the Internet is, and how it "stifles" people.

Yet, when someone quite rightly points out that you've used the Internet dozens of times to promote yourself, your hikes, your hiker "workshops", etc., then all of a sudden it isn't so oppressive and stifling.

Then it's kinda useful, no? And free, to boot.

All Cookerhiker did is point out that you're a complete hypocrite..... to you, the Internet is a horrible thing most of the time......except, of course, on the countless occasions you take advantage of it to shill yourself or your alleged services to hikers. Then, I guess the oppression and stifling takes a vacation, eh?

Oh, and I don't recall either Cooker or myself using the phrase "constant criminal."

But if that's how you wish to describe yourself, have at it.

Nice phrasing. Pithy and to the point.

Wonder
07-10-2007, 13:28
[quote=Jimmers;378691]berninbush:

Short answer: SEPTA's (http://www.septa.org/inside/history.html) a regional transit system, serving five counties, that the state legislature created. It's name is quite literal: South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
....QUOTE]
Huh??? I live in SE PA - 5 mins from Buck's County and I have no transit system!!!!
BTFrolickian'W,
We always point the finger at Philly - Bunch of Liberal bastards. And if it hits to close to home we simply shift out pointing direction to Pittsburgh - Bunch of lazy union steelworkers, or Scranton - bunch of no good coal miners, Or Erie - bunch of yahoos that act like Ohioan's. Either way, there's plenty of blame to go around!!!!!! :D :D

The suburban service was....well....CRAPY!! I used to have to take the bus from Paoli to West Chester...a 10-15 min ride would take me the better part of 2 hours! Now, to get into philly....only an hour.......guess Isee where they want their money going!

berninbush
07-10-2007, 14:43
Dispatched from Murda'City:

SEPTA's opperational budget deficit exists for multiple reasons including, "Pay for Play" politics in city governments, failing/faulty infrastructure, coverage gaps, and sub-planned usage. The largest issue is that for their own reasons not enough Pennsylvanians use SEPTA. So, why keep it operating at this level? Because soon enough their will be a higher demand for public transportation options and without the states initial funding these options will be limited, at best.


Ahhhh ok. So, let me see if I've got this straight....

Philadelphia and surrounding suburbs have a state-funded transportation system. The folks who live in the rest of Pennsylvania resent paying for this transportation system. The folks who live in Philadelphia don't want to pay for it either, and have such a poor opinion of it that they make little use of it. The elected representatives of the residents of Pennsylvania, while not planning to cut the system completely, don't see the need to increase its funding either.

But the all-wise governor of Pennsylvania sees what the poor deluded voters and the selfish, short-sighted legislators don't: At some point in the near future, the Philadelphia public transportation system is going to have a dramatic increase in demand, fulfilling and then surpassing its current capacity. Dire consequences will result if action is not taken now to expand its funding. The current multi-million-dollar budget surplus will not be enough to meet the demand. The crisis is so imminent that shutting down state government, depriving thousands of working-class families of a day's income, and severely inconveniencing many more, is worth the pain it causes.

Ok.

Johnny Thunder
07-10-2007, 14:57
Ahhhh ok. So, let me see if I've got this straight....

Philadelphia and surrounding suburbs have a state-funded transportation system. The folks who live in the rest of Pennsylvania resent paying for this transportation system. The folks who live in Philadelphia don't want to pay for it either, and have such a poor opinion of it that they make little use of it. The elected representatives of the residents of Pennsylvania, while not planning to cut the system completely, don't see the need to increase its funding either.

But the all-wise governor of Pennsylvania sees what the poor deluded voters and the selfish, short-sighted legislators don't: At some point in the near future, the Philadelphia public transportation system is going to have a dramatic increase in demand, fulfilling and then surpassing its current capacity. Dire consequences will result if action is not taken now to expand its funding. The current multi-million-dollar budget surplus will not be enough to meet the demand. The crisis is so imminent that shutting down state government, depriving thousands of working-class families of a day's income, and severely inconveniencing many more, is worth the pain it causes.

Ok.

Yep...you got it, dude. Doesn't hurt that our Governor's home is right down the road from mine (in Philadelphia).

SEPTA needs increased funding for the same reason states shouldn't sell off toll-generating highways. Long-term financial problems can't be fixed with short-term solutions.

Johnny

emerald
07-10-2007, 15:04
The number one favorite part of Ben's day at camp is swimming at French Creek State Park.

Thank you very much for pointing out another fine destination in The Green Diamond. I like to call attention to them whenever possible and I don't believe I mentioned French Creek State Park here yet.;)

I'd throw up Pennsylvania's DCNR French Creek SP link for my good friend Matt, but he seems to prefer hiking to secret shelters in New Jersey to swimming in The Green Diamond these days.:D

BMECC's 501 Shelter caretaker emailed me this morning to say he'd heard nothing to indicate A.T. hikers were affected yesterday by Pennsylvania's partial shutdown. He also thanked me for providing him with a link to WhiteBlaze.

Johnny Thunder
07-10-2007, 15:06
Ahhhh ok. So, let me see if I've got this straight....

Philadelphia and surrounding suburbs have a state-funded transportation system. The folks who live in the rest of Pennsylvania resent paying for this transportation system. The folks who live in Philadelphia don't want to pay for it either, and have such a poor opinion of it that they make little use of it. The elected representatives of the residents of Pennsylvania, while not planning to cut the system completely, don't see the need to increase its funding either.

But the all-wise governor of Pennsylvania sees what the poor deluded voters and the selfish, short-sighted legislators don't: At some point in the near future, the Philadelphia public transportation system is going to have a dramatic increase in demand, fulfilling and then surpassing its current capacity. Dire consequences will result if action is not taken now to expand its funding. The current multi-million-dollar budget surplus will not be enough to meet the demand. The crisis is so imminent that shutting down state government, depriving thousands of working-class families of a day's income, and severely inconveniencing many more, is worth the pain it causes.

Ok.
Previous post should continue:

On the East coast we also have a failing toll collection system called "Easy Pass" wherein drivers use RFID-chips to automatically pay their way on highways. New Jersey (one of the early adopters of this system) assumed that by installing this system they could make up the increased cost by fining violators (read: people who go through the Easy pass lanes without the chips used to track their payment). Unfortunately, advertising and proper signage have actually dropped toll violation to a level far below anticipated. Because of this the NJ Turnpike Easy Pass system ran at a budget deficit.

So, should the state of New Jersey allow this system to fail? Clearly it should not. There is a need for increased efficiency on the roads and this is a step in the right direction. More people will use it and as they do the system will enter the black.

Johnny

berninbush
07-10-2007, 15:29
Yep...you got it, dude. Doesn't hurt that our Governor's home is right down the road from mine (in Philadelphia).

SEPTA needs increased funding for the same reason states shouldn't sell off toll-generating highways. Long-term financial problems can't be fixed with short-term solutions.

Johnny

1. I'm a dudette. :D

2. On what are you and the governor basing your assessment that use of SEPTA is going to dramatically increase soon?

3. I understand that public transportation is hard to make self-supporting and that it may need tax support. But SEPTA is already getting tax support, just not a dedicated funding stream. Aren't there options besides raising taxes or ditching the whole thing? Lots of government programs are funded year-to-year without having their own special tax. Why does SEPTA need to be different?

4. We've got an EZ-Tag system here similar to Easy Pass (except our EZ Tag cars can drive through the gates at freeway speed instead of slowing to 15 mph... my Pennsylvania friend was amazed at that). Sure it's expensive to implement, but once it's in place, it should save money over hiring people to collect tolls. The trend here seems to be to convert more and more lanes to EZ Tag to save money. One of our toll roads is, in fact, EZ Tag only (no cash accepted).

Johnny Thunder
07-10-2007, 15:44
1. I'm a dudette. :D

2. On what are you and the governor basing your assessment that use of SEPTA is going to dramatically increase soon?

3. I understand that public transportation is hard to make self-supporting and that it may need tax support. But SEPTA is already getting tax support, just not a dedicated funding stream. Aren't there options besides raising taxes or ditching the whole thing? Lots of government programs are funded year-to-year without having their own special tax. Why does SEPTA need to be different?

4. We've got an EZ-Tag system here similar to Easy Pass (except our EZ Tag cars can drive through the gates at freeway speed instead of slowing to 15 mph... my Pennsylvania friend was amazed at that). Sure it's expensive to implement, but once it's in place, it should save money over hiring people to collect tolls. The trend here seems to be to convert more and more lanes to EZ Tag to save money. One of our toll roads is, in fact, EZ Tag only (no cash accepted).

1. I figured that at 28 you'd get the "you got it dude" meme.

2. The unique georgaphy of the Philadelphia area and the existing roadway infrastructure is less than ideal for expansion. The of the two major in/out thoroughfares (95 and 76) only one (95) is open for expansion and it does not service new corporate and commercial parks outside of the city-proper. As for 76...whomever thought it would be a good idea to build a major highway on the side of mountain, next to a river, and in a state park is clearly an urban planning genius.

Short answer- jobs are moving outside of the city at a rate that roadways cannot be updated to handle the flow. Fuel costs are increasing.

3. Philadelphia and SEPTA are mired in a "pay-for-play" (contracts for favors) system which if handled on a year to year basis only leads to more corruptions and more hands in the pot. Do the budget once. No more jockying. As a Philly resident and former mayor Rendel knows this.

4. The EZ-Tag/EasyPass system does save money for the government and tax payers in the long run. You're right. It makes sense. Just like a reliable public transportation infrastructure.

Johnny

Jimmers
07-10-2007, 16:15
Ah, SEPTA, the Rodney Dangerfield of transit systems. SEPTA operates the most varied public transit system in the country. No one else runs a subway, elevated, commuter rail, trolley, and bus system under the same management group. Which is part of the problem: SEPTA's operating board is usually chaired by an accountant, while the rest of the board is made up of lawyers and political appointees that literally know less about running a railroad than I do.

SEPTA is used heavily within Philadelphia, mostly by the poor and center city office types. It's much easier, cheaper, and faster than driving and paying for parking within the city. Until recently the Suburban rail lines had been fading and getting cut back for years; strangely, people would rather sit on the parking lot formerly known as the Schuylkill expressway than take the train. The good news is people are starting to take the train to work in the suburbs from center city now, the reverse of the old trend.

Every 4 to 8 years, SEPTA begs for more money from the state, and is denied or given loose change. So SEPTA is forced to raise fares, cut services, or layoff workers. Typically we get a combination of the 1st two, since unions don't like laying off their membership so much. So fares and service get cut, resulting in fewer riders as people get disgusted at less service, higher costs, and being packed like cattle into fewer buses. Rinse and repeat every few years, and you get what SEPTA is today: a badly managed system on a shoestring budget with incredible potential to be a great system if someone could just find some money to fund the thing and create a new management system. Once decent services can be reinstated, ridership should increase to the level it used to be at.

chickadee
07-10-2007, 16:25
See? Nothing to worry about, chickadee. Those thru-hikers should just keep hiking! Standing still won't get them any nearer where they want to go.;)

:sun

Hike on guys! :sun Keep Smiling and enjoy every step!!! :sun

Stay hydrated. If anyone needs anything when they get into PA give me a holler!! erin.delaney@yahoo.com

chickadee
07-10-2007, 16:27
Is it still allowed to blue-blaze Pennsylvania or is that all called off now?


What and avoid bitchin about the rocks and missing DWG hiker feeds on Thursday nights? :banana

shelterbuilder
07-10-2007, 17:19
Is it still allowed to blue-blaze Pennsylvania or is that all called off now?

If they blue-blaze around the trail crossing at Pa. 183 tomorow, they'll miss some more of my kind of Trail Magic - more ice cold drinks. Yesterday and today there were only 5 hikers each day, but I understand that more of the thru-hikers from the hiker-feed are due through, so who knows: I just might get rid of all of those drinks!:banana

emerald
07-10-2007, 20:16
I just might get rid of all of those drinks!:banana

:-? You could just save them for the BMECC/DCNR vista crew.;) Pick a date soon after July 27 and email me already, would you?:sun

shelterbuilder
07-10-2007, 20:22
You could just save them for the BMECC/DCNR vista crew. Pick a date soon after July 27 and email me already, would you?

Don't worry - everyone from the Billville feed could show up and we'd still have enough left over. Momma always said that it's not good to throw a party and then run out of refreshments!:eek:

Did you make a decision about your time...by yourself?

emerald
07-10-2007, 20:43
Did you make a decision about your time...by yourself?

I'm not sure. I indicated my expectations and when the schedule was posted, we agreed. What does that have to do with hiking on the A.T. in Weiser State Forest when it was closed?:D

minnesotasmith
07-10-2007, 21:48
So the newbies know what Doyle's referring to here.:


Internegator/Holy Trinity = 2

The constant criminal and anti-social whiner = 0

=================================

My current definition for this insult Doyle likes to use:

"Someone who has seen thru Warren Doyle, who understands how unethical and bad for the AT he is in every way, who looks forward to the day Doyle is forgotten like a minor case of food poisoning 20 years back, and whose points Doyle can't begin to refute"

That thus certainly makes me a proud "internegator". Anyone else?

-------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and Warren, if you ever decide you want people to get off your back online, I'd suggest you make several complete and permanent changes in your behavior, some that you've heard of and long ignored, one of at least that I suspect you have not:

1) Immediately, completely, and permanently cease defrauding and stealing. Don't take things (goods, services, access) that you neither were openly given nor paid the same price that everyone else is paying. To avoid even the appearance of impropriety, you should IMO stay out of dumpsters and away from stuff other people set out by the road for trash pick up. Skipping trail magic when hiking, and doing some yourself, wouldn't hurt either.

2) No longer encourage others to emulate your past transgressions. This includes online and in person, such as your classes for newbies. Admit both your previous actions and your pride about them were indefensible, vowing to "go forth and sin no more".

3) Cease claiming any special status for how many times you may or may not have thruhiked the AT. (Note that your longstanding and well-known abysmal personal ethics make dubious any claims you make, but that's a just and logical result of many voluntary decisions you have made over the years.) The ATC recognizes no higher status WRT hiking the AT than 2000-Miler. Hiking it more than once is analogous to taking English 101 repeatedly in college; you get no more credits after the first success, even if you take the class 30 times. You're an ivory-tower type, albeit in "fuzzy studies", and should have no trouble grasping this. You're just one of thousands and thousands of 2000-milers, nothing more.

4) Cease making people in your groups feel bad if they choose what they see as a higher value than finishing one of your group expeditions. It's just a hiking trail, and a thruhike is correctly viewed as ultimately a private, personal decision. If health, career, school, finances, or a family member's needs come to mean to a group member a higher priority than their finishing their thruhike attempt with your group, so be it. A good first step at instituting this would be to end the the "circle" bit you do. (Hint: lots of people think its title is an abbreviation, with the last 4 letters always left off...)

5) Stop teaching your newbie group members to carry out possibly technically legal but frowned-upon/unwise actions. Fording the Kennebec and swarming shelters are two good examples. (Groups of 5+ hiking on the AT are supposed to avoid shelters and camp in their entirety, even if the shelter is huge and empty, the weather s*cks, and someone's left pinkie toe has an "owie", remember.)

6) Begin giving your group members prorated refunds (proportional to the percentage of the AT they hiked with your group) if they drop out pre-Katahdin.

7) Make restitution at current market rates to everyone and everything you've defrauded over the years. Send money orders (I don't think your checks are to be trusted with your history, sorry) to the theaters you watched movies you did not specifically pay to see, to the restaurants where you ate food you did not pay for and no one gave you, etc. Definitely send Kincora Hostel adequate money for the damage your group caused when there (before your being permanently banned from that place). The RICO (anti-racketeering) Act mandates triple damages, so I'd suggest that as a benchmark. A movie can run 8.00+, so 24.00 for each instance of trespass with accompanying fraud on your part would be fair, I'd say. For Kincora, 200.00 would be an appropriate amount, I'd venture. I'm not even going to go into the 27.00 some people might thus say you'd owe BSP for each time you or one of your group members camped without payment in BSP...

Certainly, you should get all these debts paid off in full before you even once again travel out of your home town, eat at restaurants, rent DVDs, go to movies or plays, stay in motels, purchase tobacco/beverage ethanol/other recreational chemicals, make any clothing purchases, etc., etc. A second or third job to help with this wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. It's a test of your (remaining) honor, now that you know the score.

Please let us here at WB know how you do at this. As a Christian, I believe that almost anyone can be salvaged, even someone with your record, if they sincerely want to turn their lives around. Good luck.

rickb
07-10-2007, 22:18
I suspect having a common enemy is good for some. Creates bonding among men who might have very different backgrounds.

Hats off to Warren for yet another positive influence on the AT hikers!

Too funny, really.

But Warren Doyle an enemy to the Trail? Geesh.

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 22:21
Definitely send Kincora Hostel adequate money for the damage your group caused when there (before your being permanently banned from that place).

M.S., surely you're just kidding about that?

minnesotasmith
07-10-2007, 22:27
M.S., surely you're just kidding about that?

Warren and his group left a mess (that the owner had to go to considerable trouble to clean up) that qualifies as low-level vandalism. Of course Warren, their leader, owes restitution for it.

rickb
07-10-2007, 22:28
The ATC recognizes no higher status WRT hiking the AT than 2000-Miler. Hiking it more than once is analogous to taking English 101 repeatedly in college; you get no more credits after the first success, even if you take the class 30 times.

You might be on to something here.

I read Hamlet once in High School. Why anyone would think that a second reading (or even a third) would add to one's knowlege, understanding and joy is beyond me.

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 22:35
Warren and his group left a mess (that the owner had to go to considerable trouble to clean up) that qualifies as low-level vandalism. Of course Warren, their leader, owes restitution for it.

That would certainly qualify him as being an "enemy of the trail". The Peeples are really nice, besides all they do for hikers and the trail. What kind of mess exactly? My understanding was the hikers were responsible for keeping the hostel clean.

dixicritter
07-10-2007, 22:40
minnesotasmith, your post was uncalled for. Newbies can run their own search of WB to learn more about what Warren is talking about. Stop the Warren bashing or be put in time out.

Appalachian Tater
07-10-2007, 22:47
You might be on to something here.

I read Hamlet once in High School. Why anyone would think that a second reading (or even a third) would add to one's knowlege, understanding and joy is beyond me.

What distinguishes some of the people who have thru-hiked multiple times (or who spend a lot of time hiking on the A.T.) is that they give back their time and knowledge to help both other hikers and the other people who support the trail and the hikers.

They also set good examples for other hikers and do not promote practices that would harm the trail or endanger services in any way. Certain actions that may not seem very harmful when practiced by a few would be extremely harmful if practiced by many.

For instance, if many hikers slept in bathrooms along the trail, the bathrooms will be locked instead of left open. Another example: if one or two hikers steal in a restaurant, they may not get caught, but if many hikers steal in a restaurant, some will get caught, and hikers will eventually be barred completely. It is selfish to use common services in a way that everyone cannot.

The Old Fhart
07-10-2007, 23:00
Appalachian Tater-"What distinguishes some of the people who have thru-hiked multiple times (or who spend a lot of time hiking on the A.T.) is that they give back their time and knowledge to help both other hikers and the other people who support the trail and the hikers."Very well put. Be warned, however, that a positive attitude like you expressed will rapidly advance you toward the top of the coveted "internegator" list!:D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 07:12
Another example: if one or two hikers steal in a restaurant, they may not get caught, but if many hikers steal in a restaurant, some will get caught,

so stealing ketchup, mustard, mayo packets, sugar, etc. is what you're referring too? cuz LOTS of hikers do it all the time.

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 09:39
Lone Wolf-"so stealing ketchup, mustard, mayo packets, sugar, etc. is what you're referring too? cuz LOTS of hikers do it all the time."You must hang with a different class of hikers because I can honestly say I have never seen any hiker do that although I'm sure it happens and you're intimately familiar with the practice.:D A small number of so-called hikers(approaching 1) will steal anything they can from everyone they can and even brag about it but it is illegal and just plain wrong.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 09:57
A small number of so-called hikers(approaching 1) will steal anything they can from everyone they can and even brag about it but it is illegal and just plain wrong

nobody does that. you're just beig silly

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 10:23
Lone Wolf-"nobody does that. you're just beig silly"Well that "nobody" has bragged about it for years and you have supported his right to steal many times. Now who's being silly. :D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 10:26
Well that "nobody" has bragged about it for years and you have supported his right to steal many times. Now who's being silly. :D

WHO has admitted to STEALING from restaurants?

warren doyle
07-11-2007, 10:50
Post #129

Thanks dixicritter (post #135) for your response to the above post.

With a flurry of mean-spirited, misinformed, distorted and vitriolic activity, the Word Wall score now stands at:

Internegators/Holy Trinity = 9

The constant criminal; anti-social whiner; cheap, complete hypocrite; and, enemy of the trail = 0

After all that, I'm still not ashamed of what I see in the mirror. Perhaps a lobotomy is in order.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 10:54
Post #129

Thanks dixicritter (post #135) for your response to the above post.

With a flurry of mean-spirited, misinformed, distorted and vitriolic activity, the Word Wall score now stands at:

Internegators/Holy Trinity = 9

The constant criminal; anti-social whiner; cheap, complete hypocrite; and, enemy of the trail = 0

After all that, I'm still not ashamed of what I see in the mirror. Perhaps a lobotomy is in order.

The trinity/haters will get this thread locked down very soon. two more will weigh in then it will be a done deal.:D

emerald
07-11-2007, 11:11
Warren, doesn't The Trinity now number 4 + 1 (the DP) for a total of 5 or is that 4 plus a wannabe? :-?Perhaps you need to consider renaming this opposing force or just drop the reference altogether.;)

Sorry, I now realize it's more likely 2 wannabes, 3 levels.

warren doyle
07-11-2007, 11:29
The Holy Trinity have been the most consistent and reliable (please note I have not used the word 'valid') of the internegators over the last several years. The 'active' internegator list contains two more posters who have joined this very small, but very vocal, bandwagon in the last year.

So 3 (Holy Trinity) plus 2 = a total of 5 internegators

Happy trails!

emerald
07-11-2007, 11:33
Thanks, so the total is indeed 5.

Johnny Thunder
07-11-2007, 11:39
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6770397,00.html

Nope. Still no "Internegators". Maybe next year.

Johnny

Appalachian Tater
07-11-2007, 11:42
The Holy Trinity have been the most consistent and reliable (please note I have not used the word 'valid') of the internegators over the last several years. The 'active' internegator list contains two more posters who have joined this very small, but very vocal, bandwagon in the last year.

So 3 (Holy Trinity) plus 2 = a total of 5 internegators

Happy trails!

Mr. Doyle, do you realize that if you ever stumble into an emergency room unshaved and dirty after a few days in the woods muttering like this that you're going to be admitted involuntarily? You would come across as an un-medicated schizophrenic. Seriously.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 11:46
Mr. Doyle, do you realize that if you ever stumble into an emergency room unshaved and dirty after a few days in the woods muttering like this that you're going to be admitted involuntarily? You would come across as an un-medicated schizophrenic. Seriously.

doesn't compare to most of the stupid crap you post, there silly boy.:)

Appalachian Tater
07-11-2007, 11:48
L. Wolf, I take my meds!

dixicritter
07-11-2007, 11:58
Y'all need to cool it!

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:05
In answer to Wolf's question about the legality of eating refuse and garbage off of strangers' plates in eateries: I don't know if this is technically illegal. Restaurants exist to SELL food and drink, not to give it away, so if you go into an eatery and eat food that you haven't paid for, you are ineed technically taking something that you know isn't yours, which would seem to me to be a pretty classic definition of "stealing." (And the fact that one does this only after paying for one's own meal first is irrelevant.....behaving properly in a public place does NOT give someone the right to immediately behave improperly in that same place.)

But whether or not this behavior constitutes "theft" or not, it's still a pretty disgusting thing to do. Nobody in the restaurant business would approve of it, no restaurant owner or employee wants to see it; and I assure you that no other restaurant patron wants to see it. It is a vulglar, low-class, vagrant sort of behavior, and it helps re-inforce the image that all too many folks have of hikers, i.e. that they are little more than bums.

Behaving like this in public restaurants is simply wrong. It is wrong to do this, it is wrong to brag about it, it is wrong to encourage others to do likewise.

This behavior is simply wrong, period, no matter who is doing it, and there's nothing remotely "hateful" about saying this.

And if website administration, for whatever reason, doesn't want to come flat out and say that this sort of behavior is wrong, and teaching others to behave this way is worse.....well, if they don't want to say it, then others will have to do it.

And I say this in a non-hateful way. Please note I haven't singled out any one individual in the above post. It applies to everyone. And if people think I am indeed writing about one person and one person only, well, this is an understandable conclusion: After all, how many people have come to Whiteblaze to repeatedly boast about such behavior?

I can't think of too many. So if the comments here seem to be directed at one particular indivual, well, there's a reason for it.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:06
OK. So to sum up this thread, hikers have nothing to worry about as far as hiking through state parks in PA. Business as usual. Better close this one before it gets ugly with "THE 3".:D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:09
OK. So to sum up this thread, hikers have nothing to worry about as far as hiking through state parks in PA. Business as usual. Better close this one before it gets ugly with "THE 3".:D

post #153. see? it's gonna get ugly

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:11
Wolf is correct; I just heard from some folks who are presently hiking in PA. Everything seems back to normal, i.e. just the usual complaints about heat, lack of water, too many rocks, too few views, and a buttload of rattlers out and about this year.

In other words, hiking conditions in PA are pretty much the way they always are in mid-July.

So nobody needs to worry about Park closures, delays, forced blue-blazing, etc. The hikers in PA, as usual, are finding plenty of other things to gripe about!! :D

Appalachian Tater
07-11-2007, 13:12
In answer to Wolf's question about the legality of eating refuse and garbage off of strangers' plates in eateries: I don't know if this is technically illegal. Restaurants exist to SELL food and drink, not to give it away, so if you go into an eatery and eat food that you haven't paid for, you are ineed technically taking something that you know isn't yours, which would seem to me to be a pretty classic definition of "stealing." (And the fact that one does this only after paying for one's own meal first is irrelevant.....behaving properly in a public place does NOT give someone the right to immediately behave improperly in that same place.)

But whether or not this behavior constitutes "theft" or not, it's still a pretty disgusting thing to do. Nobody in the restaurant business would approve of it, no restaurant owner or employee wants to see it; and I assure you that no other restaurant patron wants to see it. It is a vulglar, low-class, vagrant sort of behavior, and it helps re-inforce the image that all too many folks have of hikers, i.e. that they are little more than bums.

Behaving like this in public restaurants is simply wrong. It is wrong to do this, it is wrong to brag about it, it is wrong to encourage others to do likewise.

This behavior is simply wrong, period, no matter who is doing it, and there's nothing remotely "hateful" about saying this.

And if website administration, for whatever reason, doesn't want to come flat out and say that this sort of behavior is wrong, and teaching others to behave this way is worse.....well, if they don't want to say it, then others will have to do it.

And I say this in a non-hateful way. Please note I haven't singled out any one individual in the above post. It applies to everyone. And if people think I am indeed writing about one person and one person only, well, this is an understandable conclusion: After all, how many people have come to Whiteblaze to repeatedly boast about such behavior?

I can't think of too many. So if the comments here seem to be directed at one particular indivual, well, there's a reason for it.

Eating from strangers' plates is also a good way to transmit disease.

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:15
Wolf:

PLease tell us, in your typical brief and pithy manner, what you find objectionable or ugly about Post #153.

*What in that post do you dispute?
*What do think is un-true?
*What have I said in that post that is incorrect?

Eating off of strangers' plates in restaurants is simply gross, Wolf, and it doesn't matter who is doing it. If you wanna eat in a restaurant, then order what you want.....and pay for it. If you disagree with this, then please come right out and say so.

emerald
07-11-2007, 13:16
OK. So to sum up this thread, hikers have nothing to worry about as far as hiking through state parks in PA. Business as usual. Better close this one before it gets ugly with "THE 3".:D

I second Wolf's motion. There's been enough discussion. I call for the question.

Since we don't vote on closing threads here, I respectfully request a lock or alternatively that people just stop posting now.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:21
Wolf:

PLease tell us, in your typical brief and pithy manner, what you find objectionable or ugly about Post #153.



I find nothing ugly. I said it's GONNA get ugly

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:22
Eating off of strangers' plates in restaurants is simply gross, Wolf, and it doesn't matter who is doing it. If you disagree with this, then please come right out and say so.

i disagree

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:23
I second Wolf's motion and we've had enough discussion. I call for the question.

Since we don't vote on closing threads here, I respectfully request a lock.

here!here!end of discussion!:banana

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:29
Thanks Wolf, for your admission above. At least when the topic comes up again, as it inevitably will, at least it'll be clear that comments against this sort of thing are NOT being directed against only one person, and it's not merely a way to castigate one particular individual.

It would seem that the ranks of the vulgar, low-class, and thoughtless number at least two.

My thanks to Wolf for the clarification. :D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:35
Thanks Wolf, for your admission above. At least when the topic comes up again, as it inevitably will, at least it'll be clear that comments against this sort of thing are NOT being directed against only one person, and it's not merely a way to castigate one particular individual.

It would seem that the ranks of the vulgar, low-class, and thoughtless number at least two.

My thanks to Wolf for the clarification. :D

why am i vulgar, low-class, and thoughtless because i don't agree eating off a strangers plate is gross? never said i practiced it. see. gonna get ugly cuz your hatred for warren is shining thru as usual. so predictable.

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:42
Um, actually, Wolf, my Post#153 which you seem to find so objectionable NEVER mentioned anyone by name. It was the behavior I was talking about.

But when it comes to the individual YOU named, you sure are defensive!

Oh, and thanx for proving my point for me......even when we DON'T mention this person by name in discussing this loathsome behavior, it's pretty clear who is being talked about.

Could it possibly be because he's the only well-known hiker who chooses to act this way?

Gee, ya think so? :-?

Alligator
07-11-2007, 13:43
Since the PA shutdown is over, sure close the thread. But recognize that it was Warren who was trolling here, in post #103.

Another AT information superhighway 'much ado about nothing' issue. The web has definitely given greater exposure to the fear-mongering Chicken Littles of the world.

I feel the freedom of long distance hiking is in direct contrast to the stifling repression produced by the 'net' and 'web'.

To paraphrase Abbey, when it comes to the net and web: "Believe little, resist much."Given the variety of management zones that AT crosses in PA, it might make a person wonder what impact the shutdown may have had on the trail. We have seen the important dissemination of an actual closure in the last few days as a result of fire. Occasionally, these things happen. Mr. Doyle belittling the thread starter and subverting the thread to his own personal rant is certainly trolling.

Appalachian Tater
07-11-2007, 13:52
Since the PA shutdown is over, sure close the thread. But recognize that it was Warren who was trolling here, in post #103.
Given the variety of management zones that AT crosses in PA, it might make a person wonder what impact the shutdown may have had on the trail. We have seen the important dissemination of an actual closure in the last few days as a result of fire. Occasionally, these things happen. Mr. Doyle belittling the thread starter and subverting the thread to his own personal rant is certainly trolling.

That's his pattern. He loves to drop a bomb in a thread. Then he'll stop in later to see the mayhem and make another provacative comment, then disappear until the next time he needs to bump one of his ads or place a new one. Typical behavior for young adolescent males on the internet, fortunately less common in adults.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 13:53
yup. gonna get ugly. all members almost present. you guys are funny.:D

Appalachian Tater
07-11-2007, 13:55
yup. gonna get ugly. all members almost present. you guys are funny.:D No, Dixi Critter is just waiting for Mr. Doyle to come back and post the score so she can close the thread.:banana:banana:banana

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:55
Thanx for pointing things out, Gator.

And of course, you're correct. Nobody on this thread made any attacks on Mr. Doyle until he chose to go-off topic and rail against the Internet, which inspired other folks to comment.

I've said this repeatedly......there's no on-going persecution or vendatta towards Mr. Doyle here, despite what he or his defenders claim. Instead, it's very simple: When he says dumb or questionable things here, or gives advice or counsel that other folks object to, he gets called on it. Same as anyone else. There's no"special treatment" here at Whiteblaze.

The fact that he gets called on it a lot merely indicates the frequency with which people find his comments dumb and objectionable.

And the fact that he makes the same objectionable comments repeatedly indicates that he either hasn't learned from thecriticism, or simply doesn't care that plenty of other folks disagree with his comments.

Therefore, his continual whining about his treatment here is childish.

The repeated criticism of much of what he says here at Whiteblaze will stop around the same time he stops repeating what he says.

But if keeps spouting this stuff time andagain, ad nauseum, then he's gonna get called on it.

Anyway, thanx Gator for being a voice of reason here.

Oh, I also think this thread is pretty much played out. The hiking in Pennsylvania is fine, best of luck to the folks who are there.

As for me, when I get back on next week, it'll be in Vermont!

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 14:02
Some people posting here don't seem to understand abstract concepts like yours and mine. If you own an item, or you provide a service, then if someone takes that without paying for it, that is theft-plain and simple. If you pay for one meal in a non-AYCE restaurant and take 2, that is theft. The test is very simple-ask the waitress if you can have a second meal without paying for it. If you lack the courage to do this and steal a meal on the sly, you obviously know this is illegal and no matter how you try to sugarcoat what you do it is THEFT and you are the lowest type of vermin.

For an example even a non-internegator could understand, check out this sign (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17716&c=510) at the Doyle. As you can see, the genuine Doyle is concerned about legalities and theft! :D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 14:06
one more. teej where you at?:)

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 14:09
Aww, he works for a living.

I'm sure he'll drop by later,Wolf. :D

(Probably after the thread is mercifully put to sleep!!)

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 14:12
Lone Wolf-"one more. teej where you at?:) "How droll. For once you could at least make an attempt to refute what I posted instead of trying to avoid commenting on the issue. How about you posting something that says it is legal to behave like your mentor? Yeh, that's probably too much to ask. sempa cry :D

warren doyle
07-11-2007, 14:16
Actually I prefer post #24. Quite realistic and somewhat prophetic. Neither dumb nor questionable.

I wonder as I wander, "Is it the message or the messenger?"

By the way, the last time I ate leftovers was in Gatlinburg several months ago. They were delicious garlic & cheese buns. The waitress said that it was fine since they were going to be thrown out anyway. This is not the first time that a waitress/waiter has reacted this way. I guess I must eat in different dining establishments than some of the previous posters.

I've also tried to consult my encylopedia about what would be the "lowest kind of vermin" in my curious quest to "Know Thyself". I haven't been able to find the answer. I hope I can sleep tonight.

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 14:17
Aww, he works for a living.

I'm sure he'll drop by later,Wolf. :D

(Probably after the thread is mercifully put to sleep!!)

so most of the people that post on here all day every day don't have jobs?

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 14:19
How droll. For once you could at least make an attempt to refute what I posted instead of trying to avoid commenting on the issue. How about you posting something that says it is legal to behave like your mentor? Yeh, that's probably too much to ask. sempa cry :D

eating leftovers is not illegal or stealing.

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 14:22
Wolf asks: "So most of the people who post on here all day every day don't have jobs?"

I dunno Wolf. Dunno about most people and whether or not they work.

AllI know is YOU don't. :D

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 14:27
Oh, and I can't help but comment on Mr. Doyle's remark:

"I guess I must eat in different dining establishments than some of the other posters."

Good! Glad to hear it! Hold that thought!! :D

dixicritter
07-11-2007, 14:27
Y'all need to cool it!

Apparently, this post wasn't noticed? This thread isn't about eating left overs off plates or stealing or anything like that, it is supposed to be about parks being closed in Pennsylvania this year.

Y'all really need to go hiking.

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 14:31
True enough, Dix. But some of the last few comments are pretty damned funny, ya gotta admit.

I'll leave it to other folks for awhile; think I'll head up to the ATC and find something to do. Mowing the lawn or folding a few T-shirts has to be a bit more uplifting than THIS thread......as for the rest of you, play nice til I'm back.

warren doyle
07-11-2007, 14:32
I am going hiking, come fire or low water!

Alligator
07-11-2007, 14:41
Actually I prefer post #24. Quite realistic and somewhat prophetic. Neither dumb nor questionable.
...My apologies Warren, you are absolutely correct. You were trolling there first;) .

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 14:43
Excellent......I guess that means someone must have finally coughed up enough to repair and gas up the support vehicle!! But then again, I've been led to understand you finda way to recoup some of the automotive expenses whenever you hit a restaurant! :D

But seriously, I hope you have a great hike. Just so it isn't in Vermont. Next week. :D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 14:47
Hike on. What do state parks and paid employees have to do with preventing us from walking the trail?



Back in 1991, the state of Maine was having similar problems. Baxter Park employees were let go for a day or 2. As part of Maineak's speed hike support crew, we arrived at the main gate to find no rangers on duty and the gate wide open. Proceeded to Katahdin Stream C.G., then headed up Katahdin around 6:00 PM

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 14:48
Excellent......I guess that means someone must have finally coughed up enough to repair and gas up the support vehicle!! But then again, I've been led to understand you finda way to recoup some of the automotive expenses whenever you hit a restaurant! :D

But seriously, I hope you have a great hike. Just so it isn't in Vermont. Next week. :D

I"LL be in Vermont next week. That ok?

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 15:01
Actually, Wolf, places like Baxter generate a lot of their operating income from these same user fees.....this money goes to pay for visitor services, staffing, maintenance, you name it. When people make the willful decision to evade paying these fees, then services at the Park suffer. If enough revenue is lost, the Park may have to temporarily close. So yeah....there's definitely a connection between the level of visitor services available, and the folks who make the thoughtless, selfish decision NOT to pay fees that everyone else thinks are just, fair, and necessary.

And note to Mr. Doyle: Since you've told us countless times that these fees don't apply to you and you avoid them wherever possible, then it doesn't matter what State Parks and their employees expect of you.....you're gonna ignore them anyway. If you're willing to break both regulations and laws, who you've acknowledged many times that you are, then nothing is preventing you from walking the Trail. So stop whining.

Noteto Wolf: See you in Vermont!

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 15:01
Lone Wolf-"I"LL be in Vermont next week. That ok?"I'll just warn the Vermont Restaurant Association to be alert. :D

emerald
07-11-2007, 15:04
For once you could at least make an attempt to refute what I posted instead of trying to avoid commenting on the issue.

I really should have ignored everything posted after this thread ended long ago. I hope what seems to be projecting into the A.T. is lopped off by a Mainetainer.;)

I would simply like to point out there is a difference between food for which someone has not paid and food for which someone else has paid, but has chosen not to eat. What we're talking about here is food on its way to the dumpster that's often perfectly suitable for human consumption.

Some folks might consider not putting that food to good use wasteful. I think it boils down to a question of what sort of eating establishment is involved and how one goes about it.

Sometimes, I've seen such food, rolls in particular, returned to the kitchen, warmed and sold a second time. On other occasions, I've seen uneaten bread or rolls picked off a table by diners themselves or for them by wait staff when a group of diners ate those that were provided. This often happens with larger groups and hungry people like hikers.

woodsy
07-11-2007, 15:26
I hope what seems to be projecting into the A.T. is lopped off by a Mainetainer.;)
Lope. lope, lope. All taken care of Mr. SOG.
By the way, I am impressed that the PA AT has so much more than rocks to talk about:rolleyes:

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 15:32
Um......Shades:

Years ago, I worked in lots of restaurants, it's how I helped pay for school.

What you said is partly correct: Restaurants sometimes "recycle" food, or decide to give food to their employees, to customers, to Homelss shelters or other charities, etc.

But in every case, this is the decision of the restaurant. It's NOT up to the patron to decide what food is still "good" and is therefore fair game for him to grab for free.

The fact that the grabbed food has been "paid for" by someone else is irrelevant. Restaurants are in business to SELL food to the public, i.e., people that wish to dine in these establishments are expected to pay for what they eat while there. Going in and grazing garbage off of the plates of strangers is NOT normal behavior ANYWHERE, and the fact that this food may be on its way to the dumpster is 100% irrelevant.

If one avails themselves of services at a Trailside or town restaurant or business, or if one knows there is a few required for use of said services, then people should pay for them, period.

Why this concept is so difficult for some folks to understand really mystifies me.

The next time you and your family go out to eat at a nice restaurant, Shades, do you really want to see unkempt, bearded, smelly people cruising empty tables and stuffing themselves with foodscraps and garbage left by other people?

Um.......I didn't think so.

emerald
07-11-2007, 15:44
Years ago, I worked in lots of restaurants, it's how I helped pay for school.

What you said is partly correct: Restaurants sometimes "recycle" food, or decide to give food to their employees, to customers, to Homeless shelters or other charities, etc.

But in every case, this is the decision of the restaurant. It's NOT up to the patron to decide what food is still "good" and is therefore fair game for him to grab for free.

You and I agree on the statement above as does likely everyone else here. As you might have gathered I worked in restaurants too.

I thought you said you were about to donate some of your time to ATC? It's getting late in the day. Maybe you should stop posting, take a hike and start folding shirts.

Don't put away you lopper yet woodsy.

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 15:46
Um.....I'm writing this from the ATC offfice, Shades. There wasn't any Volunteer work to do when I arrived, so I got onto the computer. I'll be back here to do a few things on Friday, OK?

When was the last time YOU volunteered here? :D

emerald
07-11-2007, 15:52
It would be okay by me if you volunteered some your time Jack. Sounds like a great idea.

It's been quite some time since I visited Harpers Ferry, but I always enjoyed those visits. I don't leave The Green Diamond much these days.

The Old Fhart
07-11-2007, 15:52
-"I would simply like to point out there is a difference between food for which someone has not paid and food for which someone else has paid, but has chosen not to eat."Ah, you're mixing far too many irrelevant things together here to have it make legal sense. This reasoning doesn’t just apply to food but all goods and services.

For instance, if you were to buy a plane ticket to go from California to Florida but only go to Chicago, you can not give or sell that ticket to anyone else to fly the remaining distance because the ticket is not transferable and you would be breaking federal laws if you did so. True, you paid for that ticket, and you aren’t going to use the rest of the trip you paid for, so it is ‘going to waste’, but the bottom line is the airline sold YOU the rights to fly on their plane(with restrictions) and you are not free to do what you please with that ticket. Also, if you were to ‘find’ a ticket in an airport that someone hadn’t used, you couldn’t use it because the issuing airline did not sell YOU the rights to use that ticket, and, if you use it, you are stealing. The ticket isn’t the ‘goods’ you bought but is your proof that you contracted the airline for specific services which they have agreed to provide to you, not just to any Joe Blow.

The line of reasoning used by those who steal food is this: I can go in to a restaurant and buy a cup of coffee so I have paid for a service so then I can go from table to table until I have eaten all the leftover food in the ENTIRE&#169; place. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way in the real world.

dixicritter
07-11-2007, 16:11
OK enough is enough. I've asked several times that this thread get back on track, but so far that seems to be beyond possible so therefore....


Thread closed.