View Full Version : Gathering
This was my first Gathering. I had a great time at The Gathering. I was lucky to put some faces to names for WhiteBlaze. I met Hikerhead, DebW, Bluebearee, Miss Janet, Weathercarrot, TJ aka Teej and I hope I did not forget anyone. Met a lot of thru-hikers too and I can not list all there names. I also met a lot of prospective thru-hikers and people in general. It was a great time. The Contra dance was awesome. If you did not go that that then you don’t know what you missed. I am looking forward to next year. In fact I have heard that Trail Days is way better then The Gathering. So I am going to try and make it to that event next year too.
Hikerhead
10-13-2003, 14:20
It was good to meet you and the future wife also Attroll. It was a good time. I sat on the Hiking Nutrition Workshop presented by Charlotte Clews Lawther and learned everything I ate on the trail the week prior would probably had ended up killing me, good thing I was only out there for a week or DebW would have had to make a very disturbing phone call back home. Also sat in on the Cohos Trail slide show by Stacy Mikkalsen and Greg Boone and the Appalachian Trail Expedition by Warren Doyle and the Slide show by Chris Townsend of him doing the 517 peaks of Scottland. All of them were intertaining. I wish I could have caught Baltimore Jacks lecture, had to do the 13 hours back home.
I also met Skeemer, world class guy. And then there was Bumpkin and Papermaker, Big Red, I sais hi to Baltimore Jack while passing by, he had a crowd around him, talked briefly to Miss Janet she said things were better down in Irvin. I saw Mud Butt. DebW and I met Salesman near the top of Moose Mtn while we were setting up camp. He was out of water and looking for the creek that was up on top. Later at the Gathering he said he drank water right out of the pond up on top. No filtering and treating, yukky. It's sad about his wife getting killed. Also met Wanderer on Mt Cube on the last day of his thru hike, finishing at Glencliff. Saw Jonathon/Moonbow 2 or 3 times at his hostel (Hiker's Welcome)and at the Gathering. We parked a car at his place where Fat Chap was keeping an eye on things. TJ gave DebW and I a ride to Storrs from Ben and Jerry's. DebW walked across the street, he passed by and asked if we needed a ride to the campground, ddin't even have to raise a thumb, thanks a bunch TJ. That was my first hitch, I hope they all are that easy. We thought TJ mentioned that Hammock Hanger was going to be there, we must have misunderstood with the windows open. We missed you HH.
And Bluebearee tried to Yankeefy me.....good luck on that one my little spunky ridge runner. (Go Hokies!!!)
DebW met some folks that she ran into while maintaining her section of trail.
I had a great week, the weather couldn't have been any better. I feel like I had a true vacation. I miss it up there already.
icemanat95
10-13-2003, 17:16
The Gathering is different than Trail Days. Trail Days is mostly a party with a lot of thru-hikers and former thrus swanning around drunk a good bit of the time. There is FAR less informational stuff going on, and far more eating and drinking. The one thing that Trail Days really has going for it in comparison with The Gathering is Commercial Row where the manufacturers reps set up, repair gear and generally put their best foot forward.
By contrast, The Gathering is less aggressive in its partying, but better on the informational side. You can learn a lot at The Gathering, and ALSO have a lot of fun.
I missed this year. Too much to do around the house and looming deadlines for work.
TJ aka Teej
10-13-2003, 20:25
Volunteering at the registration desk is a super way to meet TONS of great people! :O) Too many were short hugs and handshakes, but it's always rewarding to see old friends and make new ones at the Gathering! The AT class of 2003 was very well represented, and folks from at-l and WhiteBlaze were everywhere it seemed.
Iceman's take on the two is correct, the Gathering and TD are very different, but equally remarkable experiences.
Spirit Walker
10-13-2003, 22:11
Can't believe I never saw you TJ. When were you doing registration? I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you. Seems like there are so many friends at the Gathering, and so much to do, the only time I get to really talk to anybody at length is at meals. The rest of the time it's hugs and hellos on the fly. But it was a good Gathering - as always. We really hated to leave.
Well, I missed most of you, which I apologize for. But, it was not to be. I did meet Rich Thomas and A-Train, along with some others that I've met briefly before, like Jack and Miss Janet. I had a really good time, particularly at the hiker fair. Some of the most interesting gear I've seen in a while. I went to fewer slide shows and presentations than I had planned, choosing instead to spend time hanging out with old and new friends. There were some good ones, though. Chris Townsend's Arizona trail slide show was great, though I missed his main presentation despite spending an hour or so setting up for it. I was sitting at a table eating pizza, trying not to knock over the stack of Long Trail bottles when I realized that it was 9, and I missed the whole thing. There was a show on arctic Canada, with really great slides.
Alot of shows and people that I missed. But, the next one is only 12 months away and the Ruck is only a couple away.
Just wanna say what an awesome time I had at the gathering. Way better than I expected. Sorry I never got to meet some of you, but did get to meet Chris and Teej among others. So cool to see trailfriends Dimples, Poptart, Heald (hiking south), jan, hotdog, bumpkin, muddbutt, slowfoot, bluebearee and so many others.
I'm not a dancing guy but i had a blast at the contra dance. Thanks to Warren Doyle for organizing this. I can't believe how many events he ran this weekend!
Traildays is always glorified because of its party atmosphere i suppose tho ive never gone. I plan to go next yr to reunite with a lot of trail friends from 03. Its a shame that more "younger' people don't go to gatherings and Rucks. Its a shame that partying is the only way to get some peoples attention. Altho there always seems to be atleast a campfire or two at every AT event :)
Went for a couple great hikes and saw some cool presentations. The doug Morse movie on 2002 hikers was awesome! Most up to date and realistic acount of the AT ive ever seen. Funny as hell too. I woulda bought a copy if i had a dvd player.
Anyway, until the ruck....and keep the good convo coming. Peace, A-Train
tlbj6142
10-14-2003, 16:09
Originally posted by A-Train
The doug Morse movie on 2002 hikers was awesome! Most up to date and realistic acount of the AT ive ever seen. Funny as hell too. I woulda bought a copy if i had a dvd player.Any idea where I can get a copy?
I see that next year's gathering will be in WV. Much closer to home (for me). I'm sure I'll pay it a visit.
Trail Days I can do without. Was there this past May. Vendor stuff was nice, as were the $1 chilli dogs with coleslaw. Probably just plan on half-day stop on a section hike in the area next year.
TJ aka Teej
10-14-2003, 18:36
I had primetime at Registration, Friday afternoon and evening. Funny thing is I mostly met folks with last names starting A-F ;o) With several hundred folks attending it's not surprising to find out you missed meeting somebody by *this* much. I missed a couple of presentations because I bumped into people by accident, and had supper twice Saturday due to some good luck :O) Overall, it was a good weekend, with very little bad behavior. On Sunday morning an ALDHA elder engaged in some criminal conduct by encouraging others to intentionaly violate a posted local law. Luckily no one was arrested. Perhaps ALDHA should officialy discourage such illegal acts in the future. Other than that one incident I'd say it was another wonderful success for the hiking community!
Lone Wolf
10-14-2003, 18:38
Bridge jumping is fun. And a tradition. Screw laws.
TJ aka Teej
10-14-2003, 19:10
"Screw laws." Odd you should say that, L. Wolf. Having a can of beer at your campsite isn't illegal or a violation of the campground rules. But a certain ALDHA elder chose to single that behavior out as something to "Discourage." And yet the same ALDHA elder not only encouraged law breaking at the Gathering, but even recruited others to break the law with him. I've been told that the ALDHA elder is way more intelligent than I am, and his logic is beyond my ability to comprehend. *Discourage legal behavior yet encourage illegal behavior.* I'm glad I'm not smart enough to think that's logical.
Lone Wolf
10-14-2003, 19:14
You don't like Warren do you?
As I recall (and I could be wrong) the bridge jumping "tradition" predates the law that made it illegal. It's grandfathered for him. Or should be.
Of course, I did sorta notice that both Hanover (the town) and Dartmouth (the college) have become less hiker-friendly over the last several years. Nothing blatant, just little things that make life a little more difficult for ALDHA and the hikers. Probably doesn't have any specific relationship to hikers or ALDHA, but if it does it would probably be related to the referenced "legal" behavior.
Alcohol and it's abuse have become a major concern for the organizers of both the Gathering and the Rucks. Next year's Gathering is probably gonna invite those who want to drink to camp someplace other than the Folklife Center. Last year's drinking didn't get so much out of hand as just plain sloppy. The mess that was left behind at the Folklife Center was simply unconscionable in a group that would scream bloody murder if they ran into that kind of mess at a shelter. Not acceptable.
My understanding is that one of the campsites this year was just as bad, if not worse. But I deliberately did not go looking for it.
TJ aka Teej
10-14-2003, 21:28
Originally posted by bunbun
As I recall (and I could be wrong) the bridge jumping "tradition" predates the law that made it illegal. It's grandfathered for him. Or should be.
Since it was an ALDHA sanctioned (listed in the program) criminal event, would ALDHA have been responsible for the $100 fine the sign mentioned? For injuries? For death by drowning? Perhaps the criminals should just turn themselves in, you know, for the future good of ALDHA/Dartmouth relations.
The Appalachian Folklife Center is alcohol-free. It's against the rules to drink there. People should respect the rules and they shouldn't drink there.
But people who post hysterical pre-Gathering hissy fits about respecting rules should practice what they preach. In my opinion, for what it's worth, and your mileage may vary.
As part of our give back to the trail community, about 22 of us went on the Trail work trip following the Gathering.
On Tuesday morning, we heard about a missing 10 year old boy in the Loon Mountain area, so we all went over to join the search crews. Sorry to report that he wasn't found while we were there.
TJ aka Teej
10-14-2003, 21:59
Still missing, Peaks.
www.wmur.com
tom17179
10-14-2003, 22:29
Is there some kind of relationship between jumping off a bridge at 6:30 in the morning and drinking? I guess I'm just missing it. It makes sense to discourage drinking because of the mess and guys trying to pick up the college girls, and the list can go on, but jumping off a bridge does no harm to anyone. That is known as a victimless crime, meaning that no one is hurt except the one committing the crime. The law is really there to protect us, and make us liable for our actions instead of the muicipality. Police don't get mad when these type of laws are broken; they just ticket and move on with a smile, much like if you've ever gotten a ticket for not wearing a seatbealt. A DWI on the other hand is a different story. Also, if ALDHA encouraged drinking, they would get the negative publicity from anyone making a mess or a DWI rather than the individual.
Tom
Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
Since it was an ALDHA sanctioned (listed in the program) criminal event, would ALDHA have been responsible for the $100 fine the sign mentioned? For injuries? For death by drowning? Perhaps the criminals should just turn themselves in, you know, for the future good of ALDHA/Dartmouth relations.
The Appalachian Folklife Center is alcohol-free. It's against the rules to drink there. People should respect the rules and they shouldn't drink there.
But people who post hysterical pre-Gathering hissy fits about respecting rules should practice what they preach. In my opinion, for what it's worth, and your mileage may vary.
Uh, Teej - I've known Warren for a lot of years. I've never seen him hysterical - never seen him throw a hissy fit. But he gets right irritated about people who look at the Gathering as just another version of Trail Days. And so do I. Those who want to drink themselves into oblivion are welcome to do so - someplace else, someplace where it won't reflect on ALDHA. Preferably someplace where I won't have to clean up the mess they make. Dont forget - Warren founded ALDHA. He cares about it - and he doesn't want to see it destroyed by those who just want to party and don't give a damn about the organization.
As for the bridge jump - that's a 22 year old part of ALDHA tradition. It's one of the many ways that Warren - and others - thumb their noses at those who would protect us from ourselves and make all our lives homogeneously "safe" - and utterly bland. I have little respect for those laws that are 1/ unenforceable and 2/ meant to protect me from myself. Those laws are materially different from those meant to protect society at large. Not all laws are equal - or equally logical or reasonable. So, while I agree with you most of the time, don't expect me to sympathize with you on this one. Of course, YMMV.
By the way - sorry I didn't get to meet you at the Gathering. We were at the registration desk Friday afternoon. We probably saw each other - and were probably both busy with other people.
I think we should ban smoking at the Gatherings in the future, along with cell phones, hairy legs on women, long poetry readings, and hypocritical legal stands by ALDHA leaders. All are an annoyance much greater than drinking a few beers. Well, I personally like smoking, but sacrifices must be made to protect us from ourselves!
TJ aka Teej
10-15-2003, 09:12
Originally posted by bunbun
Those who want to drink themselves into oblivion are welcome to do so - someplace else, someplace where it won't reflect on ALDHA.
So it's true, the "Official Discouragement" was aimed at one campsite? A hysterical overreaction that painted all campers as being "evil do-ers" if they had a couple of quiet beers at the end of the day at thier own campfires. Hysterical by definition, and hypocritical by action. Legal rule-conforming activity was condemned by an ALDHA elder who then went out and proudly engaged in dangerous criminal activity. I guess the doublethink approving the situational ethics involved are over my head.
I was sitting behind you at the Sunday meeting, (the at-large members I voted for all won) and figured I'd get to meet you later. It's a long trail, but a small world. I look forward to seeing you down the trail.
Originally posted by chris
I think we should ban smoking at the Gatherings in the future, along with cell phones, hairy legs on women, long poetry readings, and hypocritical legal stands by ALDHA leaders. All are an annoyance much greater than drinking a few beers. Well, I personally like smoking, but sacrifices must be made to protect us from ourselves!
LOL!!!
I'll agree with smoking, cell phones and long poetry readings, but hairy legs on women? You wouldn't have any women there - and I'd have to look at nothing but hairy faces. Blech. :)
Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
So it's true, the "Official Discouragement" was aimed at one campsite? A hysterical overreaction that painted all campers as being "evil do-ers" if they had a couple of quiet beers at the end of the day at thier own campfires. Hysterical by definition, and hypocritical by action. Legal rule-conforming activity was condemned by an ALDHA elder who then went out and proudly engaged in dangerous criminal activity. I guess the doublethink approving the situational ethics involved are over my head.
I was sitting behind you at the Sunday meeting, (the at-large members I voted for all won) and figured I'd get to meet you later. It's a long trail, but a small world. I look forward to seeing you down the trail.
TJ - no - not aimed at "one campsite". Aimed at a long string of Gathering (and Trail) problems generated by alcohol abuse. You weren't there to see Beorn chugging cheap whiskey out of a half gallon bottle, were you? I was. We were banned from that campsite the next time we were at Hanover. Do you remember Levi Long - or the hostel at Manchester Center - or the dozens of other hostels that have been closed down because of the actions of a few whose idea of "fun" was to get drunk and disorderly and hassle the locals?
If it were a few people having a quiet beer or two around the campfire, there'd be no problem. But it's not. It's Fubar and the Rat Pack magically transporting Trail Days to the Gathering. I didn't find the actions of Fubar and the Rat Pack acceptable on the Trail - why would I find them acceptable at the Gathering? Was the Rat Pack at the Gathering? Who knows and why does it matter - some of those who were there were clones, if not the originals.
As for "doublethink" - I don't remember Warren saying that alcohol wasn't permitted at Storr's Pond - but he DID say that it's banned from the Folklife Center. ALDHA hasn't tried to police that until now because the drinking used to be the "quiet beer or two around the campfire". But those days are gone - now there are too many underage kids with the attitude "how many beers/whatever can I drink before I pass out." Juvenile? Of course. But also a direct reflection on the organization if we just ignore it. Also dangerous to the organization - I know a lawyer who's presently handling several cases where kids have died because of alcohol abuse - and the organization that ignored that abuse is being sued. I don't need that, ALDHA doesn't need that, ATC doesn't need that - the Trail doesn't need that.
In fact, no one's telling anyone that they "can't" drink - only that if they want to drink, they should camp someplace else. And yeah - I'll also miss that "quiet beer or two around the campfire". But it's better than dealing with the body of some teenager who can't control him/herself and dies of alcohol poisoning or chokes to death on their own vomit. Been there, done that - and have the scars to prove it. And if that were to happen, that would likely be the last Gathering. Is that "quiet beer or two around the campfire" worth that?
I'm sure we will see you down the trail. It's always a pleasure - even if we do sometimes have to agree to disagree :)
As one of the members of “that campsite” I feel that I need to respond to a few things mentioned here and other places. I am a member of the Billville group. We were the ones camped out on top of the hill near the bonfire location. One of our ranks, Miss Janet, spoke with several of the committee members on Sunday night and was surprised to find out that we were the main topic of conversation. A list of complaints had been generated against us, and Janet was kind enough to pass this along. As a group, we have discussed them and found 75% of them to be, in fact, untrue.
However, one of the complaints that was mentioned there was also mentioned here, and that is leaving trash in the campground. This is a very sore spot with us and one that I would like to address. First, we attended the 01 Gathering and camped in the same location, on top of the hill. Went Jester arrived this year he stopped to say hello to the caretaker of Storrs Pond, who remembered him. He said something to effect of “You were the guys who camped on top of the hill. I remember because you left the site extremely clean.”
Also, there was another accusation about trash at the 02 Gathering. Now I am assuming this is referring to us once again, but I might be incorrect. However, I can assure you that every single bit of trash was removed from our site at the Folk Life Center, and I do mean every bit.
This year, we were also accused to creating a mess. I can personally assure you that every morning we picked up all of our trash and hauled it away from this site. Also, members of Billville (Jester and Baltimore Jack to name two) went over to the main bonfire site and removed bottles, cans and cigarette butts. We also provided the wood for that fire after the small supply that was provided by ALDHA ran out on Friday night. Also, it was reported to me that the first campsite on the left, entering the campground, was left a mess on Tuesday, bu we do not know who was responsible (or irresponsible) for that site.
The other issue that I have seen mentioned was that people were drinking themselves into oblivion. This is absolutely false, and if it was happening, I would have witnessed it. Was there drinking? Absolutely. Was anybody getting completely drunk, stumbling around, acting obnoxious? Not that I could tell, it was just a bunch of people having a few drinks and having a good time. The Gathering is different that Trail Days, and we have no desire to turn one event into the other. I love the Gathering, it is where I first heard about the Wind River Range, which is what inspired me to go there. It has been my most spectacular backpacking trip to date.
As for the Folk Life Center, we had already decided to find another campsite for the 04 Gathering. This is out of respect for the Folk Life Center, which we now understand has rather large objections to alcohol on their property. This is not out of respect for someone who chooses what laws are OK to break and what ones are not, and not because we feel like we behave badly. In addition, even "a couple of beers around the fire" should be highly discouraged here as well. Just as I stopped people from drinking at "The Place" on my thru-hike, ALDHA should stop all drinking at the Folk Life Center. The folks there don't approve of that on their property - period.
I would also like to note that on both Friday and Saturday we had more people at out campsite than were down at the official campsite. I am not trying to brag about this or anything, but rather state a fact. In fact, most of the time, the area of Billville had more non-Billville people than Billville people. Most of the Class of 2003 was camped up there as well. We had ALDHA members join our campfire, many of whom told me personally that they had a great time with us. I also had several ALDHA members tell me personally that they were not happy with the way that the 03 Gathering was managed.
If there are any issues with our group we would certainly like to know. We are not out to turn the Gathering into Trail Days – October. We are not out to take over ALDHA. However, we do not appreciate false accusations being directed at us either, and feel the need to respond to these when they arise. Judging from everything that I have read so far, most of the Gathering attendees either had a good time with us, or were unaware that we were there at all. I welcome any comments and first-hand criticisms on our attendance and behavior. Thanks for reading all this.
Tim “Chomp” Scott
I can't imagine that there were any complaints about Billville. I went up to the Billville site on Saturday night, leaving around 5 am on Sunday morning. Things there were mellow and friendly. The Billville people came down to the main fire (while I was still there) and were very friendly and invited anyone who wanted to to come up and join them. They went out of their way to encourage new people to come up. I took them up on their offer and went up after my friends at the main fire went to sleep. There was neither heavily intoxicated people nor inappropriate behavior. I think, perhaps, the masks might have spooked a few people, though. The only inexcusable thing that occured at the Billville site was my leaving my empty bottle of Ernest and Julio there for someone else to pick up. I completely forgot when I left and didn't remember until the afternoon.
Jack Tarlin
10-15-2003, 11:14
Not much to say here, Chomp said it all. But here are a few things:
Monday morning the Gathering Co-ordinator visited our site. After tromping around muttering for awhile, he went into a tirade about property damage, trashing the site, etc. I pointed out to him that there was NO damage whatsoever, that the driveway chain he accused us of vandalizing (easily $2.49 at Walmart!) was in fact, not brokenat all, and that the site was left in better shape than when we found it. I asked him, to his face, in front of witnesses, to confirm that he'd inspected our site and found nothing amiss. The site was spotless, all garbage was bagged or boxed awaiting disposal, all ground trash and cigarette butts were policed up; the fire was doused. His response was to flatly ignore our request, a clear indication that his primary interest wasn't in confirming the integrity of the site; instead his primary interest, and in fact, the purpose of the visit, was to seek ammunition against us. Finding none, he went ballistic, carried out a lengthy, childish tirade that accomplished nothing in terms of settling problems/complaints. His actions accomplished 2 things: They made him look like a complete horse's ass, and they woke up 2 folks, one of whom had been sick since leaving Monson more than a week before.
Lastly, to Bunbun, whoever the hell you are: Your comment about the condition of our site is nonsense. Stop talking about people and events you obviously know nothing about. And as to your comment re. the Rat Pack bringing Trail Days to the Gathering, three quick things: Fubar wasn't at the Gathing. Of the 2 guys present at Billville who'd been present during the unpleasantness at 4 Pines Hostel, one of them was very subdued all weekend, and spent most of the weekend with a lady friend, and much of his time was spent elsewhere. Most of his time at Billville was spent sleeping. And as for the other "Rat Pack" transplant, this was a fine young man universally known on the Trail this year as a known non-drinker. So please, limit your comments to things you know something about, and if you must spout such strong stuff, please put your real name on your posts.
Chomp -
As I recall, Billville was mentioned only in passing - and then only because of perceived reputation, not because of any specific complaint. There WAS a specific complaint, a specific incident. And there may have been more than one. The jury is still out on that. But it/they were not Billville specific. Don't take things too personally or someone might start to think that -- as the Man said: The guilty flee when no man pursueth. :)
As for the 2002 Gathering, the Billville site may have been clean, but the pile of cans, bottles and other debris near the outhouses at the Folklife Center was truly disgusting on Monday morning. "Pack it in, pack it out" was NOT practiced there. Yeah - I was there. I think I even took a picture of it. I'll have to look.
I can't comment on what exactly we did with all of the trash from the Gathering 02 because I hit the road at 8 AM on Sunday. However, I do know that typically Jester's pickup truck becomes the dump truck for Billville. I'll have to confirm this to be sure, though.
As for being paranoid, I wan't sure if you were talking about Billville or not, but I know that Miss Janet was told "that Billville was the main topic of conversation." Maybe that claim was a bit exagerated, but it certainly got our attention.
Originally posted by Jack Tarlin
Not much to say here, Chomp said it all. But here are a few things:
Monday morning the Gathering Co-ordinator visited our site. After tromping around muttering for awhile, .....................
Lastly, to Bunbun, whoever the hell you are: Your comment about the condition of our site is nonsense. Stop talking about people and events you obviously know nothing about. And as to your comment re. the Rat Pack bringing Trail Days to the Gathering, three quick things: Fubar wasn't at the Gathing.
Jack -
I won't speak for the Gathering coordinator - that's between you and him. But for your three quick things - I didn't say Fubar or the Rat Pack was at the Gathering - but I did say there are ALWAYS a few clones who emulate that particular behavior. As there were this year. If the Rat Pack remnants weren't the problem, fine - but that doesn't mean there wasn't a problem. There was. And at no time have I said it was at Billville. Have I? Sensitive this morning, aren't we?
Now - one more thing - were you at the business meeting? I didn't see you there - and I was hoping you would be cause I'd have liked to nominate you to be a Board member. If you make it to the business meeting next year, you can get your two cents in about how to run the organization. Hell, if you wait two years, you can have my place cause I'll be leaving to go hike. :D
Finally - you know me, Jack - think about it. If it doesn't come to you, let me know and we'll work it out.
I would like to make a few comments about Chomp's and Jack' response. There is a real concern inside of ALDHA about the disappearance of Hiker Services along the trail. The concern has growner so great that they have implemented the "Endangered Service Campaign" several years ago. I would recommend that everyone goes to the ALDHA website (www.aldha.org) and download the introduction to the companion. To quote (And if either editor is looking at this message, please forgive me)
"Simply put, behavior like that is unacceptable. It is unacceptable in the industrialized society you have chosen to remove yourselve from for six months, and it is unacceptable in the Appalachian Trail Community. Many hikers will say matter-of-factly that they have chosento hike the Appalachain Trail because they want to break free from the societal norms, mores, and general manners each of us should have learned as small children. But, as one poster for ALDHA's Endangeres Services Campaign says, "Just because you live like an animal does not mean that you act like one." Your actions (positive or negative) and your behavior (Positive or negative) directly affect the services, treatment and goods offered by the communities surrounding the A.T. You are solely responsible for your conduct - it doesn't get any simpler than that. How you behave, and how you influence others to behave, can make the Appalachian Trail a great experience or a por experience. The choice is up to you"
All of the typos are mine.
So you represent the hiking community whether you want to or not and that directly affects my hike. I don't know who is right or wrong and I really don't care. If the campsite was clean, GOOD! Were you loud and noisy? That might be a problem. Who know? I feel however that this discussion is a waste of bandwidth.
So who is going hiking this weekend?
Grey Owl
I found nothing wrong with Billville re: drinking and trash but i can't agree with someones arguement that they were very friendly and welcoming.
My experience on friday night was that of two "members of billville" rudely implying that many of us were helping ourselves to their beers and one guy said "why don't you just take my wallet" directed to the kind SlowFoot. I for one had one beer. That was the beer of my friend Cloudwalker, who offered me the beer out of the same cooler that billville was keeping their beers in. Slowfoot was looking for no problems or to piss anyone off. What we got were very rude remarks and I personally was made to feel unwanted and alienated.
I'm not involved in this arguement about too much trash or drinking. Just thought i'd tell you that everything you guys did this weekend wasn't so great. Celebrating our finished thru-hikes with a beer that we owned certinaly didnt warrant making us feel low. Thanks A-Train
When I got up there, people offered me beer. But, I wasn't up there on Friday night.
Blue Jay
10-15-2003, 13:00
This is exactly why I would rather go to a blind, one armed, dentist than go to one of these events.
TJ aka Teej
10-15-2003, 13:50
Originally posted by bunbun
As for "doublethink" - I don't remember Warren saying that alcohol wasn't permitted at Storr's Pond - but he DID say that it's banned from the Folklife Center.
From the ALDHA Hanover '03 Gathering info link posted to the at-l and shared here:
"ALDHA is not the police department. Despite this, we have the obligation to police ourselves and to be cognizant of how our actions may very well intrude on someone else’s experience. With that being said, ALDHA discourages drinking at the Gathering … PERIOD.
This includes camping areas, events, shows, the parking areas and campfires."
But if you want to violate the law by jumping off a posted bridge, that's just fine and dandy. ALDHA will even put it in the program.
Big Brother has a serious case of doublethink, in my opinion.
chknfngrs
10-15-2003, 14:35
out of curiousity, what is the average age for this "gathering" ?
Originally posted by TJ aka Teej
From the ALDHA Hanover '03 Gathering info link posted to the at-l and shared here:
"ALDHA is not the police department. Despite this, we have the obligation to police ourselves and to be cognizant of how our actions may very well intrude on someone else’s experience. With that being said, ALDHA discourages drinking at the Gathering … PERIOD.
This includes camping areas, events, shows, the parking areas and campfires."
But if you want to violate the law by jumping off a posted bridge, that's just fine and dandy. ALDHA will even put it in the program.
Big Brother has a serious case of doublethink, in my opinion.
LOL!!!
uh - Teej - Warren didn't write that. Nor did JohnO. I don't think Warren even knew about it until it was already on the Web page. No one did except the person who wrote it and the webmaster.
Just a rough guess, but I'd say the average age is probably in the low 30s or upper 20s.
Chris said: "When I got up there, people offered me beer. But, I wasn't up there on Friday night."
At another time I was actually offered beer as well by some of the guys who were up there. Just a few certain people found it neccessary to be total ******** is all im saying. I will not generalize about "Bilville" whatever and whomever it is, because the issue i had, i've had with one of those people before.
I'd beg to differ. I think the average age at the gathering is way higher-more like 40's to 50's. Maybe higher.
Jack Tarlin
10-15-2003, 15:59
A-Train:
Sorry about what you've reported but I can assure you this is NOT typical Billville behavior. We give away a lot more than you think:
During the Gathering, we gave away at least 3 dozen hot dogs and assorted snacks to anyone who asked; this was done both Friday and Saturday night. Also, we gave away a lot of beverages, and not all of them malted. (Yeah, on occasion, we DO drink juice, soda, or even water).
Most of this stuff was given to complete strangers. Also, over the past few years, Billville and Red Blaze Magic has become somewhat legendary on the Trail, especially that offerred in Pennsylvania, the Mid-Atlantic States, and New England, by such Billville members as Bag 'O Trix, Jester, Funkee Munkee, Chomp, Walking Home, PA Mule, Blister Sister, and so on.
This past year, Blister brought literally dozens of hikers into her home for clean-ups, meals, shuttles, etc. This was vitally important as there's no cheap place to in Manchester Center anymore. In August, I took dozens of folks to my place in Hanover, as the Dartmouth Dorms were all closed by the time we arrived in Hanover. In many cases, neither Blister nor I knew the folks we were entertaining. All we knew was they needed rest, cleaning up, laundry, home cooking, etc. PLus, they were all thru-hikers.......enough said, it was good enough for us. Hell, come to think of it, I even took in some Southbounders, too, which for me is a long stretch!
I don't mention these "good deeds" in order to look good or to score points; however, I feel the need to provide some balance to your comments. Billville does a great deal of good on the Trail and has never received (nor asked for) any credit.
As to the beer at the Gathering, once again sorry you were on the short end of some sharp words, but be aware, you were probably the 43rd person to go diving into one of our coolers; we had no way of knowing the stuff you were receiving was yours; we'd also "lost" a ton of personal, i.e. non-public items during the weekend, including much food and drink, so it's only natural someone said something to you. Sorry it was handled so bluntly, tho.
As for me, I've given away more drink, food, and smokes than I can think of.....if all of that stuff were to magically appear in my house tonight, I'd have beverages and Camels for 40 years, and about 16,000 pounds of lasagna, too. In retrospect, maybe it's a good thing we give so much stuff away....maybe it'll help us live longer!
sdoownek
10-15-2003, 18:36
drama, drama, drama.
Next week, on "How the Trail Turns", we'll have Shaniquia and Hector, as they battle to find out who is really the father of the baby found in the Denton Shelter.
tlbj6142
10-15-2003, 20:59
This is exactly why wingfoot moderates his board.:D
:banana :banana :banana
Lone Wolf
10-16-2003, 00:24
Let the backpatting begin! How come we Hobos aren't recognized? We've done more by accident than these BILLS have done on purpose!! We have big egos too! Please acknowledge us!
smokymtnsteve
10-16-2003, 00:28
LW...just come down to atlanta and we'll let wingy do ya some back-patting:D
I'm sure wingy would love your big ego!
Lone Wolf
10-16-2003, 00:40
Fark you douche.
Seems to me you'd have to be drunk to jump off a bridge. Is this how the "tradition" started?
Me, I'd prefer to moon the cog railroad.
Jack Tarlin
10-16-2003, 15:19
In a recent post, the remarkably well-informed Bunbun made mention of the "dozens of other hostels that have been closed down because of the actions of a few......" He was referring specifically to irresponsible drinking by hiker guests.
Last time I checked, "dozens" means at least 24. I also have some fairly good knowledge of trail facilities of the past few years, and while there's no denying that some are no longer open, many closed for reasons other than alcohol abuse.
Bunbun, please corroborate your statement by listing at least 24 hiker hostels that have closed because of booze.......if you're successful at this, I'll happily buy you a drink.
Don't get me wrong.....I'm not saying this problem doesn't exist. It sure does. But to buttress one's argument with bald statements like this does not aid the dialogue. Bunbun says there are at least two dozen places that hikers once stayed at that no longer welcome hiker guests because of hiker drinking. I say to him: Fine. Name 'em.
Spirit Walker
10-16-2003, 17:00
Before your time maybe, but I can think of two big ones off the top of my head - Sheas Pine Tree Pavilion - drunk hikers trashed a wedding cake and Levi Long's - a drunk hiker tried to climb the outside wall of his hostel, when Levi tried to stop him, the guy got belligerent. Levi's was a really special place and a real loss to the hiking community.
Seems to me there used to be other hostel type places that no longer exist, like Bland, VA, Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Manchester Center, Gorham, the Jesuit Hostel in Hot Springs, Dartmouth (I remember when we could stay at the church student center, and then there are several frat houses that no longer accept hikers - when we stayed at one in 1992, we were not allowed to drink at the fraternity, even though the frat guys were drinking, they had had so many bad experiences in previous years. ) that no longer are open to hikers. I don't know why all of these other hostels closed, but alcohol was sometimes a part of the problem. You may be able to handle drinking (don't know you well enough to say) but a lot of hikers, especially young inexperienced ones) can't handle alcohol after they've been on the trail a while. Some folks see the freedom of the trail as freedom from all constraints, even the ones of common consideration for their hosts.
Jack, you know recent trail history, but believe it or not, the trail has a long history of bad relations between inconsiderate hikers and the communities along the way stretching back a long way before your time. Every new incident makes it a little harder for the hikers who follow. The places I knew in 1988 were different from the ones I saw in 1992 which were different from the ones you saw in 1995 and those are different from the ones you saw in 2003. Be honest, can you not think of any hostels in the past 8 years that have closed because the owners became disgusted or discouraged at the behavior or their hiking guests?
weathercarrot
10-16-2003, 17:24
and then there was Dalton, in the late 80's (I think it was the YMCA)....
wc
[i] Be honest, can you not think of any hostels in the past 8 years that have closed because the owners became disgusted or discouraged at the behavior or their hiking guests? [/B]
This is what everyone first assumes and you're possibly correct, but I'm sure there are other issues such as lack of funding and/or volunteers, age and health of the hostel owner.
In the same stretch of time I can think of many hostels that have opened including the Kincora, Standing Bear, Vernon, Glencliffe, Uncle Johnnies, Miss Janet's House among others.
Since it's generally up to hikers to police themselves, why wasn't there any mention of problems at the Gathering until after the fact?
The church in Chesire used to take hikers. Now they just let them "stop by"
Hmmm – nitpicking, are we, Jack? OK – I’m not gonna waste the time digging out enough to make you buy me a drink, but I’ll give you a sampler. These are the ones that are directly related to alcohol - and easy for me to either find or remember --- there are others.
Let’s start with the church that was closed in 1973 (per Ed Kuni)
Then there’s the church hall that was burned when drunken thruhikers knocked over a kerosene lamp during a square dance. (year unknown – somewhere in Mass)
How about the church in Kent that was closed down when Cindy Ross went through there in 79?
Or O’Lystery Pavilion? Levi Long’s? the fire house in Vernon, NJ? Or the Pawling Pavilion?
How about the Unionville fire house and at least one of the hostels there? Pen Mar?
Or Shea’s Pavilion? Or the Dalton Community Center?
Or the church hall in Cheshire? Or Manchester Center?
Or the church basement in Hanover? Or the fraternities in Hanover (specifically Alpha Theta)?
Or the many motels and other businesses that have asked not to be included in the Companion or the Handbook over the years? That, by the way, includes Rusty’s.
Then there are the places where I don’t specifically know that alcohol was a factor – but for which there’s really strong suspicion – like maybe –
The Jesuit hostel in Hot Springs? The hostel at Pearisburg?
The Waynesboro Firehouse?
The Silver Hill shelter? Antlers Camp?
How about the church hostel in Monson?
What’s the story at the Home Place?
Then there are the places that may yet close down in part because of alcohol and in part because of thruhiker “attitude” – like the church hostel at DWG.
I’ll quote Cindy Ross here –
“Alcohol and long distance hikers don’t mix. Our bodies absorb it like a sponge and in no time at all, we’re doing things we’ve never done before.”
And then Darrell Maret from the Philosopher’s Guide –
“ Two paths: one easy, one difficult. The easy path is by caring only for yourself, by taking advantage of others, by disregarding the negative effects of your actions, by damning all those who must follow in your footsteps. The difficult path is by balancing your concerns with those of others, by dealing with others honestly and justly, by being mindful of the long-term effects of your actions, by making the way better for those behind you. The difficult path yields a much richer life, but it is nearly impossible to persuade an easy path person of that fact.”
Now – Jack decided to continue this conversation with a nitpicking challenge. And the above list is evidence of the negative effect of alcohol on the Trail and on future thruhikers. So I’ll challenge Jack – to show just how alcohol usage produces positive long-term results for either the Trail or for those who would emulate him in thruhiking the Trail and in their future lives?
And just so he knows wher I'm coming from - at one time I drank at least as much as Jack does. Then I was put in a position where I had to examine my own life in the same terms as Darrell Maret defines. I had to examine what the long-term effects of my actions were doing to others. I made my decision -
Now - for Sly - a question - since the thruhiker population has expanded - does the capacity of those that have opened equal or exceed the capacity of those that have closed? I don't have the answer, but if it doesn't then the ones that have opened are overloaded and will close eventually due to burnout if nothing else.
The Trail is a wonderful and complex beast. And a lot of us love it. But it CAN be loved to death.
Lone Wolf
10-17-2003, 00:31
Darrell Maret? Most don't know who he is. I do.
and on todays episode of who's the best AT hiker.......
Originally posted by bunbun
Now - for Sly - a question - since the thruhiker population has expanded - does the capacity of those that have opened equal or exceed the capacity of those that have closed? I don't have the answer, but if it doesn't then the ones that have opened are overloaded and will close eventually due to burnout if nothing else.
The Trail is a wonderful and complex beast. And a lot of us love it. But it CAN be loved to death.
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
asmtroop3
10-17-2003, 08:47
Originally posted by A-Train
The church in Chesire used to take hikers. Now they just let them "stop by"
As of Memorial Day When I researched that section to hike, The Parish priests have changed and although quiet about it, they take in hikers again.
max patch
10-17-2003, 09:14
Originally posted by asmtroop3
As of Memorial Day When I researched that section to hike, The Parish priests have changed and although quiet about it, they take in hikers again.
Seems to me that we should respect their wishes to be "quiet about it" and not publically post this.
Perhaps this post should be deleted by the author or aministrator.
Spirit Walker
10-17-2003, 09:35
One thought - a lot of the hostels that closed were the church hostels, where the charge was only $2 or $3 a night, if that. They were pretty stable and took hikers in for many years. The new hostels are run by folks (often former hikers) who need to make a living off their guests - I don't know the costs, but I bet it's more than $2! Also, if they aren't able to make enough to pay the mortgage, it isn't long before they have to shut down. And as Sly said, burn out is a factor as well. The hostel keeper gets jaded after dealing with the inconsiderate and ungrateful thruhikers -- and after a while they either just think about the money (and get a bad rep as a result) or they decide it really isn't worth the hassle and go do something else with their lives. So while there are hostels now that weren't there a few years ago, how long do you think they'll last? I don't think I would do it for more than a few years.
Kinda like - when we first got off the trail, we would meet hikers with a cooler of drinks and fruit, offer a slackpack, etc. By the second year, we noticed that the hikers just didn't care anymore, they had seen so much trail magic another soda wasn't appreciated much. So we stopped the direct trail magic and started doing trail maintenance -- where at least what we do is necessary and can have long term good effects -- more than a little sugar high. And if the hikers don't appreciate it much, at least we know we're doing some good.
Originally posted by Sly
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
I haven't counted them, Sly. Maybe someone should. But it seems to me that the hostels are more concentrated in fewer towns. I could be wrong about that.
Alcohol abuse has been going on for a few thousand years. And it probably won't stop this week - on the Trail or off. My question is this - what example are those who are the leaders and examples in the Trail community setting for those who will come after them?
No - I don't know how to keep the slobs, drunks and thieves off the Trail. I'm not sure it's possible in a free society - which is what the trail community is. But do we want to be advertising (and setting the example) that partying up the Trail is the way to do it? Somehow I don't think Earl Shaffer would buy into that concept.
Hmmm - burnout - that's how I got on the Trail in the first place. I got burned out in a high stress job and needed something/someplace to try to get sane again. "I" got better - but my insanity grew to epic proportions. If I weren't insane I would't be involved in this discussion. I didn't come to this forum to talk about this kind of stuff.
Yeah - burnout in hostel keepers is the ultimate reason (along with financial considerations) that most hostels close. But - think about it - how much does alcohol (especially in the form of drunken hikers who show no respect for the hostel or the rules) accelerate that burnout? The answer is - a LOT.
Are all hikers drunken disrespectful slobs? Of course not. But all it takes is one hiker with an attitude and a bottle to close a hostel. That's how Levi Long's hostel came to be closed. So - who provided the bottle? Or the six-pack? Who provided the example that said - hey, the Trail is one long party and it's cool to get drunk when you hit town? So ultimately - who's responsible for closing that hostel? The guy who got drunk? The one who sold him the liquor? The one who provided the example that started the whole cycle? Or all of the above? It's easy to blame the guy who got drunk - but it's not so easy to look in the mirror and accept that some of us also had a piece of that blame cause we set the wrong example and taught him the wrong things. Been there, done that and have the scars to prove it.
A quiet beer (or whatever) with friends around the campfire is one thing. A party in every town (or every night) is something else again. What's the long-term effect of the example it sets?
Enuff - I've got work to do - and I'll be leaving this afternoon for the weekend. C'ya
Originally posted by Sly
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
I haven't counted them, Sly. Maybe someone should. But it seems to me that the hostels are more concentrated in fewer towns. I could be wrong about that.
Alcohol abuse has been going on for a few thousand years. And it probably won't stop this week - on the Trail or off. My question is this - what example are those who are the leaders and examples in the Trail community setting for those who will come after them?
No - I don't know how to keep the slobs, drunks and thieves off the Trail. I'm not sure it's possible in a free society - which is what the trail community is. But do we want to be advertising (and setting the example) that partying up the Trail is the way to do it? Somehow I don't think Earl Shaffer would buy into that concept.
Hmmm - burnout - that's how I got on the Trail in the first place. I got burned out in a high stress job and needed something/someplace to try to get sane again. "I" got better - but my insanity grew to epic proportions. If I weren't insane I would't be involved in this discussion. I didn't come to this forum to talk about this kind of stuff.
Yeah - burnout in hostel keepers is the ultimate reason (along with financial considerations) that most hostels close. But - think about it - how much does alcohol (especially in the form of drunken hikers who show no respect for the hostel or the rules) accelerate that burnout? The answer is - a LOT.
Are all hikers drunken disrespectful slobs? Of course not. But all it takes is one hiker with an attitude and a bottle to close a hostel. That's how Levi Long's hostel came to be closed. So - who provided the bottle? Or the six-pack? Who provided the example that said - hey, the Trail is one long party and it's cool to get drunk when you hit town? So ultimately - who's responsible for closing that hostel? The guy who got drunk? The one who sold him the liquor? The one who provided the example that started the whole cycle? Or all of the above? It's easy to blame the guy who got drunk - but it's not so easy to look in the mirror and accept that some of us also had a piece of that blame cause we set the wrong example and taught him the wrong things. Been there, done that and have the scars to prove it.
A quiet beer (or whatever) with friends around the campfire is one thing. A party in every town (or every night) is something else again. What's the long-term effect of the example it sets?
Enuff - I've got work to do - and I'll be leaving this afternoon for the weekend. C'ya
Blue Jay
10-17-2003, 12:38
Max, you keep mistaking this site for Trailplace. Since you are very into getting posts removed, you really need to be on that site. There is something here you obviously cannot stand,it's called Free Speech.
Somewhere Easy must be laughing his ass off over this thread.
These threads started with the comotion and actions that took place at the Gathering. They have now taken the turn to the Alcohol is to blame for just about every bad thing that happens on the trail. Just like the world we live in there are many different personalities we encounter. Some bad apples, the regular good guy shmo, and of course the amazing people who you could call an angel. I have seen much bad behavior unalcohol related happen on the trail. I saw a hiker with a dog refuse the no dogs allowed sign in what used to be the manchester center Zion church, pick up a chair and throw it across the rec room because the minister had to point out no dogs allowed. His response of throwing the chair and telling off the priest that his dog was a thru hiker to and should be allowed. No alcohol just an *******. There were hikers that misused a computer at the church hostel in Vernon to down load porn in a church with children around. Again no alcohol - just ********. Alcohol is not the reason every bad thing happens. However in a community such as Long Distance Hikers - there needs to be proper communication. There are alot of accusations being thrown around, of which are making even innocent people defensive. I like to sit down and have a beer or cocktail with many of my friends. Whether it be the Bills, The Hobo's , or even ALDHA board members. The fact is there is good and bad everywhere - a few rotten apples can slip in anywhere without knowledge. At that point we deal with situations like adults. Not one person taking the authority to blame whole groups of good people because of isolated inccidents. Very unfortunate arguments being set forth to innocent people.
max patch
10-17-2003, 16:49
Originally posted by Blue Jay
Max, you keep mistaking this site for Trailplace. Since you are very into getting posts removed, you really need to be on that site. There is something here you obviously cannot stand,it's called Free Speech.
Hamster, you need to temper your raging anger with a bit of common sense. We have a Church which is getting back in the hostel business but wishes to keep this information "quiet". Posting this information in a public forum is against the wishes of the Church and is a good way once again lose this facility as a hiker hostel.
Remember, Free Speech is not absolute. It is illegal to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. And its justs plain dumb to "spread the word" about a service when the host wants to keep its availabilty quiet.
max patch
10-17-2003, 17:13
Hamster, while we're at it, in your opinion the Administrators have infringed on several individuals right to Free Speech on many occasions by deleting posts that discussed butt plugs, the advantages of fat women, outing individuals believed to be homosexuals, homophobic posts, and racist posts.
This is a site dedicated to the AT. In the name of Free Speech why to you believe that posts such as these should not have been deleted?
I believe a bit of censorship is prudent.
smokymtnsteve
10-17-2003, 17:31
Like ms Aretha Franklin says,,
R_E_S_P_E_C_T_
and she's a big girl...talkling about advantages!
Jack Tarlin
10-17-2003, 19:13
You know, Max,sometimes you make no sense whatsover.
The First Amendment and the right to free speech has nothing to with what appears or does not appear on a wesite paid for and administered by a private individual. Where on earth did you get the idea that you or anyone else has the right to take up our time and space with such delghtful subjects as the ones you mentioned? On your own website? Sure, feel free. But here, on a site devoted to Trail matters. Hardly.
But there's an easy remedy for this if you REALLY wanna talk about or learn about the subjects you mentioned: Go elsewhere. I daresay, if you "plug" (pardon the phrasing!) any of those terms into a search engine, you can enjoy yourself til the cows come home. Discuss 'em here? I think not.
Personally, I entirely support the "hands off" approach to site administration here, and I think the present folks are doing a fine job of keeping this site a place we can enjoy, learn from, and be proud of. I only hope it stays that way.
smokymtnsteve
10-17-2003, 19:23
Originally posted by smokymtnsteve
Like ms Aretha Franklin says,,
R_E_S_P_E_C_T_
and she's a big girl...talkling about advantages!
that's why!!!!
you make plenty of sense max patch.....let's respect the church's wishes as a group...lack of respect is what causes the problems..along with excessive alkyhol
max patch
10-17-2003, 20:56
I think you came into the middle of the conversation and have missed the point. And in rereading my post I can see that it could have been better worded. My bad.
ALL those topics at one time were posted on this website. The Admins, properly, in my opinion, deleted them.
I was asking the Hamster since he believes in "Free Speech" apparently 100% of the time why he thinks the Admins were wrong in deleting them.
warren doyle
10-21-2003, 12:11
Interesting responses - an online survey of human nature passionate about the trail.
A little history is in order first about the Sunday morning 'cliff jump', a 22-year tradition at the Gathering, from the 'horse's mouth'.
The cliff jump is nothing more than a celebration of the wild/free/adventurous/looney part of long distance hiking.
For the first eight years of the Gathering, participants had the option of jumping off a 25' or 35' cliff into the Bluestone River.
We had anywhere from ten to 40 jumpers in those days, with an equal number of observers. I know of only one person who suffered a minor injury - a scraped shinbone.
The first Gathering at Hanover in 1990 saw about 20 folks jump off the White River bridge where the trail is in West Hartford, VT. There was about 30 observers.
The Pipestem (WV) Gatherings of 1991, 1993, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002 saw groups of 1 to 10 jump off Brush Creek Falls.
The Carlisle (PA) Gathering of 1995 saw four people plunge into the lake at Boiling Springs
The Hanover (NH) Gatherings of 1992, 1994, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2003 saw groups of 1 to 8 jump off the main bridge into town (where the AT is) into the Connecticut River. The 2003 jump was the first time the bridge was posted mentioning a $100 fine for jumping off the bridge.
As an educator, rather than a regulator, I always question rules and regulations. I do not preach/teach blind obedience (neither did our founding fathers). I am sure the ordinance was drafted for two reasons:
1) The safety of motorists: I am sure the spectacle of folks (whether they be townies/Dartmouth students) jumping off the bridge during a hot summer afternoon would distract passing motorists and posssibly cause an accident.
Since we were jumping off very quickly at 6:50am on a fall Sunday morning, when the traffic was very light, the regulation didn't apply to me.
2) The safety of the jumpers: I have always been concerned about this so I don't need a regulation telling me what I can do or can't do in this regard.. 22 cliff jumps; about 220 people; one minor injury.
If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering. Besides, didn't the law-abiding Javert finally commit suicide by jumping off a bridge in Les Miserables while the compassionate Jean Valjean survived?
I think people were upset because you advocate no-alcohol at Pipestem _because_ those are the rules, whereas you do not seem bound by the same logic in Hanover with respect to the cliffjumping. If you would have made the argument that the presence of alcohol at a large public get-together is inherently harmful, that would have been another story. Now, if I or others make an argument that alcohol is not detrimentalt, then shouldn't we have your blessing to drink at Pipestem? Or, should we, as you have stated in another post, simply follow the rules, which say: No drinking at Pipestem. If Yes (follow rules), then the same logic applies to your cliffjumping, tradition or no.
Jack Tarlin
10-21-2003, 13:00
The fact that Warren takes great concern over the possibility of injury is fine, but it's irrelevant. And while there has evidently been only one minor injury at Gathering cliff jumps, this is perhaps good luck as well as good planning. After all, it is a manifestly unwise and dangerous thing to do.
I live a few miles from the West Hartford bridge. At least one local teenager was horribly injured in recent years (i.e paralyzed) thanks to a bridge jump from this location. Because of the inherent risk, bridge-jumping here has been illegal for years and anyone who jumps, or encourages others to do so is clearly flouting the law, as well as encouraging folks to engage in a provably dangerous activity.
I think the point here is that it can be viewed as rather hypocritical for an individual to ignore regulations and laws that he might find inconvenient or foolish, but then, at another place, take the "high road" in being a stickler about other regualtions and laws that other folks choose to bend or break.
Personally, I have no problem with bridge jumpers, as long as nobody is compelled to do it. But to advocate ignoring rules and statutes that one doesn't care for, while admonishing or criticizing other folks for occasionally doing likewise, does not seem entirely fair. Why not acknowledge that almost everyone, at one time or another bends or even breaks the conventions of society, and leave it at that, without the moral posturing or criticism of others.
Heeheeheehee! Jack and I have agreed on our second point! The first, for those of you keeping score, was sometime last fall and had to do (coincidently, of course) with liquor.
I was asked to post this for The Old Fhart. Apparently he is having some problems with registering his Whiteblaze acct.
-chomp
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Warren's response is absolutely amazing! What sort of pedantic megalomaniac tries to justify blatantly breaking of a law designed to safeguard people and equate it to a moral imperative! To say: "Since we were jumping off very quickly at 6:50am on a fall Sunday morning, when the traffic was very light, the regulation didn't apply to me.", could be used to justify any illegal or immoral act. The facts are that people DO get hurt from this activity and that you have had only "one minor injury" only means you have been lucky so far, nothing else. The law against bridge jumping does not have an exception which states: "excludes the great and omnipotent Warren Doyle", it applies to all people, no mater how much hubris they exude. My wife works in a crisis counseling group and we are keenly aware how far reaching the consequences of someone's thoughtless, openly flagrant, or just plain stupid act can be in impacting everyone associated with that person. The two weeks she spent in Manhattan after 9/11 certainly drove that home.
Warren's only response is that: " If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative[sic]. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering." I want to know how this unbelievable attitude fits in with the Endangered Services Campaign ALDHA professes to support. One section of it states:' Our hope is that hikers will eventually adapt the "Leave No Trace" camping ethic to their activities in towns, not just to their behavior in the woods, and do it without even thinking twice about it." You can't expect others to obey all the rules while not only choosing which ones you violate but also flaunting the transgression by publishing it as a schedule event. ALDHA needs to stop talking out of both side of it's mouth and show that it is a good responsible organization supporting good trail ethics by stopping this violation of ethics and law. Maybe it is time to dethrone the king, not try justify his existence and listen to his obtuse irrelevant quotes from Les Miserables.
The Old Fhart
warren doyle
10-21-2003, 18:06
The third set of quotes in the first paragraph of 'The Old Fhart' reply is very misleading. I'm just plain Warren Doyle, neither great nor omnipotent, and certainly not the king.
Now, it would be appropriate to put quotes around the two sentences above because I actually said (wrote) them.
Warren, like me or hate me for what I am about to say. You choose to be in a spotlite. The last Gathering I coordinated, you sent me a list of presentaions that you wanted to lead that actually out did the hours we actually had to offer. I had to call you feeling like a schmuck (sorry local lingo), to tell you I had to cut some of it. You were cool about it and I did what I had to do on the planning. I remember that weekend, nobody could actually talk to you unless they ran from classroom to classroom, as you had your presentations. As for the Gathering you do spend more time in front of the people then with them.
warren doyle
10-24-2003, 09:34
Blister,
First of all, thanks for all your efforts in coordinating the 1997 and 1999 Gatherings at Hanover. It is a great deal of work and I always have appreciated this.
Your comments are quite accurate.
I see the Gathering as a time when I can share my experiences/knowledge with any who are interested in making the most of our limited time together. I have other things in my life besides hiking and find that I don't have the time to answer adequately all the requests for AT-related hiking info that I get throughout the other 359 days of the year. I 'compartmentalize' my time for this service to six days a year - 3 days at the Gathering (since 1982) and 2-3 days at Trail Days (since 1988). I'm not ashamed of that.
I've downsized my life considerably since 1995 to be out of the 'spotlight'. However, I love hiking the Appalachian Trail whether by sections or on a group thru-hike. I also feel an obligation to share this love of the trail with others who are interested. I consider myself a 24/7 educator.
As to people to be 'with', we all have the freedom to choose who we spend our personal time with according to our interests/needs. I don't try to tell you who you should spend this kind of time with. Certainly, one cannot spend time with everyone at the Gathering, even those who are there for purely social reasons. This is not my primary purpose for attending the Gathering.
Have a fun and beautiful fall/winter in Vermont.
By the way, I could never hate a fellow human being.
C'mon you guys, for how long are we gonna beat a dead horse? Yes, the cliff jump is illegal in Hanover. So no longer shall it be put in the program, as my opion. As far as Folk Life Center - we all find alternate camping. It's simple,no argument. Rules are rules.