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B Thrash
10-14-2003, 20:33
On my last section hike last month I saw a southbound thru-hiker treat his water with three drops of regular household bleach. Has anyone viewing this thread ever had any experience using this method?.

Virginian
10-14-2003, 21:19
Yes, about three drops to a liter and wait 30 minutes.

bunbun
10-14-2003, 21:40
LOL!!!

Some people seem to think bleach will kill the nasties in the water. They're dreaming. Think about what it takes to keep a swimming pool clean - that's the kind of chlorine concentration you need to kill Giardia or crypto. And 3 drops in a quart/liter isn't anywhere near that concentration. Do you really want to drink swimming pool water for 4 to 6 months? Go talk to a chemist or field biologist. Hmmm - try greyowl. He needs a good laugh too.

The only reason people think bleach works is because they've been just plain lucky and never gotten water that actually needed to be treated. When they do get bad water, they get just as sick as those who don't use anything.

Personal opinion - if you're gonna use bleach, save the weight and carry a brick instead - it would be more useful. :D

sdoownek
10-14-2003, 21:51
Bleach works. Those who say it doesn't aren't really educated on the subject.
Comparing safe drinking water to pool water is asinine.

There are several threads on this. Do a search.

There's a chick who works for some public works department who went into a diatribe about how chlorine dioxide works, etc, etc.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2003, 21:54
Originally posted by sdoownek
Bleach works. Those who say it doesn't aren't really educated on the subject.
Comparing safe drinking water to pool water is asinine.

There are several threads on this. Do a search.

There's a chick who works for some public works department who went into a diatribe about how chlorine dioxide works, etc, etc.


on crypto??? maybe you need to ask some folks in milwaukee about that!

bunbun
10-14-2003, 22:42
Originally posted by sdoownek
Bleach works. Those who say it doesn't aren't really educated on the subject.
Comparing safe drinking water to pool water is asinine.

There are several threads on this. Do a search.

There's a chick who works for some public works department who went into a diatribe about how chlorine dioxide works, etc, etc.

Yup - there are a lot of threads on this - and bleach works just fine on water that isn't contaminated.

But it still doesn't work on the water from the Haypress reservoir in the Wyoming desert and it won't work on the water from the spring in the Smokies that's made so many thruhikers sick. Or a couple dozen other sources that I've used - and watched others get sick from. Now - after you've used bleach on those water sources - and NOT gotten sick, come back and tell me about it. Until then, there are chemists and biologists who have actually done field tests - and that's where my information comes from. Not from self-justifying email threads where those who've been luckier than they deserve talk about how they've survived bad water that they never really encountered.

Oh - yeah - the pool water thing - ever smelled the tap water from a city water system that's been contaminated? They clean it out by dumping in more chlorine than you'd use in your pool. In fact, the greatest incidence of crypto occurs in swimming pools and hot tubs. Does the chlorine concentration of your bleach exceed the chlorine concentration in those places? If not, then why do you think the swimming pool analogy is "asinine"? Justify that statement.

I used to sell water treatment systems, babe. You learn a lot about water when you do that - and even more about it when you spend as much time as I have in "bad water" country.

You will, of course, do what you want - but telling me about bad water and expecting me to believe in your theory about bleach isn't worth more than a good horse laugh on my part.

Just curious - do you label any post that disagrees with your preconceived notions as a "diatribe"? And the poster as "ignorant"?

sdoownek
10-14-2003, 22:48
Wow.
Whatever.
I've got 10-12K miles hiking using bleach.
Been sick exactly once.

Personally, I really don't give a flying mother****.

MedicineMan
10-14-2003, 23:52
Well I wont enter the diatribe but I am appreciative of the info in this debate....I used chlorine for a while but agree I must have been lucky (well judicious in my choices to treat) then I switched to AquaMira drops....please share opinions on it, so far it has done me well too.....I am just to old and tired and achy (got any cheese?) to carry a filter.

bunbun
10-14-2003, 23:54
Originally posted by sdoownek
Wow.
Whatever.
I've got 10-12K miles hiking using bleach.
Been sick exactly once.

Personally, I really don't give a flying mother****.


Cool - I quit counting at 13k. You're still lookin' at tail lights and the only time I've been sick was from food poisoning at Pizza Hut in Grants, NM and town water in Dubois, WY. :D

Have a good day anyway.

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 00:04
You do what you want.

I'll do what I want.

Would it make you feel better if I said "I"m wrong and you're right"

How about "I suck and you're smart"

Maybe "You're the king of everything and I'm just a moron"

bunbun
10-15-2003, 00:12
Simva - we sometimes carry a filter and sometimes not. Depends on the trail and the area we're gonna hike. We always carry "something" - just in case. We've never used Aqua Mira, but some of our friends have - successfully. I believe Brian Robinson used it for his hike. There's a LOT more to this discussion than just "what" you use. Just as important is - "when" to use it - or not use it. As for being "old" - I don't admit to that, but I've sure gotten cranky over the last 60
+ years.

MedicineMan
10-15-2003, 00:40
LOL, that's a good one....well that is good advertisement for AquaMira if Flying Brian used it, surely at 10,000 miles if it were to have failed it surely would have at least once.....
I do use chlorine in my hottub...it is a Snorkel, the wood fired type and is used very infrequently...at 500 gallons we dump 8oz of Chlorox in about 30 mins before the soak, so far no one has gotten bacterial vaginitis or any skin complaints so it must do something and God knows I can't afford enough AquaMira for this use :)

c.coyle
10-15-2003, 07:24
I'll probably regret jumping into this thread, but....

Some people seem to be assuming that the chlorine found in bleach and chlorine dioxide found in Aqua Mira ("Pristine" in Canada and Europe) are chemically the same. My undersanding is that they are quite different. I've haven't noticed anything close to a chlorine odor when using AM.

I'm relatively new to all of this, but it seems reasonable that a lot of gastric distress while backpacking can be traced to basic hygene errors, such as not washing one's hands.

.... OK. Back to throwing food and breaking furniture.

deeddawg
10-15-2003, 09:15
Originally posted by c.coyle
[...] chlorine found in bleach and chlorine dioxide found in Aqua Mira [...] My undersanding is that they are quite different.

Bleach is Sodium Hypochlorite. Aqua Mira I think is Chlorine Dioxide. Both contain chlorine, but I think work differently.

Here's some info on how to generate chlorine dioxide from sodium hypochlorite and hydrochloric acid:
http://www.clo2.com/ecf/ecf2.html


According to http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/msds-ftss/msds71e.html to get Giardia kill you need 1% Sodium Hypochlorite. See http://www.clubcruceros.org/FoodWaterPrecautions.html for some more info. I'm not sure though how 2 drops (0.2ml) of 5% sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) can achieve a 1% solution in a liter (1000ml) of water. Seems like you'd need at least 10ml to make a 1% bleach solution and 200ml to make a 1% sodium hypochlorate solution?

Even then, sodium hypochlorite doesn't seem to do much to cryptosporidium. Some references:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=127548
http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/science-technology/data-sheets/cryptosporidium-parvum.pdf
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/msds-ftss/msds48e.html

Here are my thoughts on the discussion:

First, do your own research and figure out what you're comfortable with.

Second, I think it's irresponsible to risk screwing up someone else's health by advising them to do something based on anecdotal "evidence". Claiming to have hiked xxx miles with no ill effects makes about as much sense as my telling a new motorcylist that they don't need to wear a helmet because I've ridden for over twelve years and never "needed" mine.

Third, sdoownek, your initial post begged the response you got; reminds me of the kid who couldn't understand why he got beat up after shouting a racial epithet while walking down the middle school hallway.

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 09:22
Originally posted by deeddawg
Third, sdoownek, your initial post begged the response you got; reminds me of the kid who couldn't understand why he got beat up after shouting a racial epithet while walking down the middle school hallway.


Again, I'll say this:

You do what you want, I'll do what I want.
If somebody asks something, I'll post my opinion.

If somebody says something that I disagree with, I'll post my opinion.

I don't see what the big deal is.

Lone Wolf
10-15-2003, 09:27
Over 16k hiking the AT and I NEVER treated or filtered a drop of water. Never been sick. Just say no to water treatment!:D

Presto
10-15-2003, 09:34
Deeddawg is coorect. Don't confuse household bleach with Auquamira, they are two very diffent things.

At the concentration of household bleach you need to properly treat water, your throat would probably be burning from the amount of chemical you would drink. Household bleach is already diluted so it would take far more than a few drops to treat the water.

Chlorine Dioxide on the other hand (Auamira), is a very active chemical and therefore requires adding far less to treat the water than household bleach. This is one chemical commonly used in municipal water treatment.

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 09:36
Well, I guess I'lll go with lwolf from now on then.......

deeddawg
10-15-2003, 10:38
Originally posted by sdoownek
You do what you want, I'll do what I want.
If somebody asks something, I'll post my opinion.

If somebody says something that I disagree with, I'll post my opinion.
Fine by me.

Posting one's own opinion is one thing. It's another thing to step in calling folks holding a different opinion ignorant or uneducated, and referring to a comparison as asinine. Derisive comments about others tend to invite a reaction.

I don't see what the big deal is.
You've made that quite obvious. Cya.

greyowl
10-15-2003, 10:49
Bleach works if you first purify the water. Chlorination is the last step in any water purification step. Straight bleach (out of the bottle) will kill most gram -ve (E. coli etc) in 15 minutes. Most Gram +ve's and their spored in 30 minutes. Most parasites are done in at this period of time along with the lining of your stomach. I personally filter as while I was in that sunny southeastern asian country I came down with Amebic dysentery and Uncle Ho's revenge (E. coli induced dysentry). Of course if you are overwight and want to loose 30 lbs in a couple of days....

Grey Owl

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 10:51
I'm sorry, but I still believe that comparing drinking water to pool water is asinine.

If people agree or disagree with that statement and want to respond, that's their choice.

I'm harsh, yes. I state things in a very to-the-point manner, and that pisses people off. That's not my problem.

I'm also at home, sick, and very, very bored.

Ankle Bone
10-15-2003, 10:55
Have hiked 17K (you guys mean kilometers, right?) and have never drank a drop of water! There's no need. Numerous studies have supported this theory. You guys just don't read enough!!!!!

Since this is my opinion, it is obviously fact. Anyone who doesn't agree is Stupid, Ignorant, Asinine, and all other generally accepted name-calling names.

sdoownek
10-15-2003, 11:03
Whatever. I'm not responding anymore on this thread.

bunbun
10-15-2003, 11:03
Originally posted by deeddawg
Here are my thoughts on the discussion:

First, do your own research and figure out what you're comfortable with.

Second, I think it's irresponsible to risk screwing up someone else's health by advising them to do something based on anecdotal "evidence".


Thank you.

greyowl
10-15-2003, 11:14
I should add that I use an Iodine filter. Only way to get viri out of the water. Really scary is that Hep a and Hep B is being found in some ground waters. All we need is a hiker carring either one of these to crap near a stream.

Grey Owl

Ankle Bone
10-15-2003, 11:46
Re: "Whatever. I'm not responding anymore on this thread."

Yes, I'd say it's time to take your ball and go home.

icemanat95
10-15-2003, 11:50
No chemical methods that are portable and practical for hiking are 100% effective against everything, all the time. That's a fact of life., but household bleach is the LEAST effective of the chemical methods used. Various tests have shown that household bleach can require contact times measured in HOURS rather than minutes to reduce contaminants to "safe" levels, and it is largely ineffective on some contaminants. Iodine is somewhat more effective on some bugs and less effective on others. Boiling is the only 100% effective method I know of, and it just isn't practical for long trips because of the amount of fuel needed.

Filters are faster than chemicals in that you can drink the output water right away, but they are also highly prone to cross-contamination if the user doesn't use them in a carefully thought out and ritualistically scripted manner to prevent such cross contamination.

In all cases, personal hygeine is critical. For instance, if you dip your hands in a beaver pond, you should consider them contaminated and immediately wash them prior to handling food or drinking water. Most of us don't do that...hell, many hikers don't wash their hands after taking a dump in the woods. Taking a dump in the woods rather than an outhouse is also the superior method in terms of avoiding contamination since you are only dealing with your own cooties and not everyone else's. But you still need to wash your hands right away before touching food, utensils or anyone else.

Lone Wolf is just one of a large number of veteran hikers I know of who do not treat any of their water. This does not mean that the water is safe for everyone however. What it means is that Lone Wolf and Warren Doyle and a variety of others, have developed strong resistance to the cooties in their systems. Just as many folks in the third world can drink water that would leave a first worlder wretching their guts up or married to the toilet bowl, these folks have adapted to the water in the backcountry, and it doesn't mess with them. It works for them, but I wouldn't count on it working for you.

I generally use a filter myself. If the water is really nasty, I'll gather some in a Drom bag and dump in iodine to get the process started, then filter it after an hour or so. I also wash my hands religiously after doing my business or after using public facilities (both along trails and in town.) The greatest number of giardia cases are reported in daycare facilities. That tells me that hygeine is the most important factor.

I keep household bleach around for emergencies, but I don't trust it much. My pool is WAY overchlorinated, but it's still growing algae...your mileage may vary.

Ankle Bone
10-15-2003, 12:00
Iceman: Can you give more info on the cross contamination with filters?

Causes?

Prevention?

Thanks!

smokymtnsteve
10-15-2003, 12:33
Originally posted by greyowl
I should add that I use an Iodine filter. Only way to get viri out of the water. Really scary is that Hep a and Hep B is being found in some ground waters. All we need is a hiker carring either one of these to crap near a stream.

Grey Owl

vaccines are available for both Hep a+b.....ridge runners are required to have them...

anyone who eats at salad bars should consider getting the vaccine also...

don't want to filter and treat your H2o ...fine that is your choice...and I'm certainly PRO-CHOICE,.

for most folks that are hitting the trail after drinking treated "city water" all thier life..not treating the water on the trail is foolish....

Lone Wolf
10-15-2003, 12:38
Yo smokey! I hit the trail for the first time after drinking "city water" all my life and never have or never will treat water on the AT. You callin me a fool, b**ch?:cool:

smokymtnsteve
10-15-2003, 12:42
how bout salad bars ..you eat at salad bars???:D


me I wuz raised in the country we drank well water...and not one of them drill wells nethier....

naw LW....you do what ya liek..but you jist tougher then most folks:)

bunbun
10-15-2003, 12:45
Iceman - good summary. A couple comments in support ---


Originally posted by icemanat95
Filters ................... are also highly prone to cross-contamination if the user doesn't use them in a carefully thought out and ritualistically scripted manner to prevent such cross contamination.

Keep the output hose in its own ziploc, don't allow it to contact the input hose, the water or anything else other than the water receptacle. Keep the output port on the filter covered when not being used. Preferably wash your hands before handling the output hose - although very few people do that.


Originally posted by icemanat95
In all cases, personal hygeine is critical.

Largely - sometimes it's someone elses hygiene. Don't eat Gorp out of someone elses bag, don't eat out someone elses pot, don't brush your teeth with untreated water.



Originally posted by icemanat95
Lone Wolf and Warren Doyle and a variety of others, have developed strong resistance to the cooties in their systems. Just as many folks in the third world can drink water that would leave a first worlder wretching their guts up or married to the toilet bowl, these folks have adapted to the water in the backcountry, and it doesn't mess with them. It works for them, but I wouldn't count on it working for you.

You've maybe been to Haiti or Costa Rica or ............... wherever? Maybe seen people taking a bath in a pothole in the road - and then using the same water for drinking and cooking? You also learn to keep your fingers out of your mouth in those places - unless you love to worship the Great God John.

As you say - the bugs that don't bother me may not be as kind to someone else. And vice versa.

Lone Wolf
10-15-2003, 12:49
Hell yeah I eat at salad bars and buffets! You know what BUFFET stands for? Big Ugly Fat F***s Eating Together.

deeddawg
10-15-2003, 14:21
Originally posted by bunbun
Keep the output hose in its own ziploc, don't allow it to contact the input hose, the water or anything else other than the water receptacle. Keep the output port on the filter covered when not being used. Preferably wash your hands before handling the output hose - although very few people do that.
Very good description. This is one of the reasons that I have the slightly heavier MSR Miniworks EX. The "clean side" is covered by a cover and the output nipple into which I plug my platy's hose does not touch that cover.

Is it foolproof? Certainly not. But it is a fair bit easier to keep the "clean side" segregated from sources of contamination.

What I think sometimes gets forgotten or bypassed is that everyone has different habits and needs. A significant portion of my hiking and outdoors stuff involves my son's Scout troop. As such, I'm very "religious" about using hand sanitizer and other measures because I'm trying to teach "best practices" to the kids; I'm a firm believer in teaching by example.

I think the best thing to do for folks new to hiking and the backcountry is to teach the safest practices, and then once those are learned begin to show where it can be fairly safe to back off from such given sufficient knowledge and skill.

Also -- there's a very interesting paper at http://www.climber.org/Resource/giardia.html.

Once again, do whatever you're most comfortable with after you've done adequate research.

bunbun
10-15-2003, 14:55
Originally posted by deeddawg
I think the best thing to do for folks new to hiking and the backcountry is to teach the safest practices, and then once those are learned begin to show where it can be fairly safe to back off from such given sufficient knowledge and skill.

I've always operated on the principle that rules are made to be broken - but only after you know the rules better than anyone else as well as knowing the reasons for those rules and the situations they don't cover. No rule/law/regulation covers ALL situations.

In case it wasn't obvious - I just agreed with you. :)

Chief Choctaw
10-17-2003, 11:55
With the ready availability of water purification systems out there for less than fifty dollars, it seems a bit risky to me not to treat. I have used iodine for many years in the army, but prefer the filter and hand pump systems.

One bad night with Montezuma's revenge, and a doctor's bill
more than justifies purchasing a filter kit.

If you want to use chlorine as described, you may never get sick, but you are not going to kill all the bugs all the time. Iodine is available fo less than five dollars and wieghs?...nothing. Please, whatever you do for yourself is one thing, but when you advise others, tell them to treat the water responsibly. Chlorine is not the answer.

smokymtnsteve
10-17-2003, 13:43
thank you chief ..I agree with you 100%...

Blue Wolf
10-17-2003, 14:01
hmmm? I read all these posts and it still leaves me with a question. Nowhere in all these threads did it mention anything about water filters. Do they work? How do they remove bacteria from the water? If these work so well wouldn't you be able to filter water that says "do not drink?"

Kevin

Senor Quack
10-17-2003, 14:46
Noone's mentioned, either, that the long-term effects of drinking relatively large amounts of chlorine and iodine are still, as far as I know, undetermined. Iodine is, I have heard, known to be harmful in large quantities. Chlorine is a man-made chemical that, if I remember correctly, kills bacteria by disrupting their cell membranes. If it kills bacteria so effectively, what is it doing to our body's cells if drunk in such massive quantities?

Chlorine is also known to form carcinogens when it comes into contact with organic material. This is why many municipalities (including my own) are switching to other treatment chemicals.

On my thru-hike next year, I'll probably carry some Aqua-mira instead of my Pur Hiker filter, but will probably only use it very seldom.

I'd love to try out the MSR pen filter but I'm hesitant to ingest water containing active oxidizing agents in such a quantity that could kill any and all pathogens. Oxidization can harm our DNA and cause premature aging. I've yet to learn any details of how MSR deactivates the reactive characteristitcs of the agent after it enters the water to be purified so it would be guaranteed to not be harmful.

Blue Jay
10-17-2003, 15:01
I've had Giardia, way back when filters were rare. It was absolutely awful. It hurt sooo much I could not even straighten up. I carry a filter now and take Probiotics. I would never drink some kind of chemical water cleaner for months. I'd rather have the Giardia again. It's your long term health, you have many options.

smokymtnsteve
10-17-2003, 16:06
Giardia, bad enough..I picked up some heliobacter pylori from well on the dessert in so.cal.( drank it straight, no treatment) now there a bug you certainly don't want...

icemanat95
10-17-2003, 20:15
H Pylori is no fun. My wife had it when she was pregnant, made her morning sickness 24 hour a flipping day, 7-days a week, 9 stinking months long sickness. The treatment to get rid of it is a few months of massive antibiotic therapy.

The only time I got sick while hiking was thew direct result of not treating a suspect water source. The reason I didn't treat it? It was a public water source, came right out of the spigot at the public beach you pass at the dam a day or so south of damascus. That sucked in the extreme.


I use a filter most of the time.

How do they work, generally by forcing the water through an incredibly fine seive, ceramic matrix or whatever that screens the cooties right out. Filtering down to 1 micron will strip out pretty much everything short of viruses, and it'll even catch larger viruses like smallpox, which are so complex that they are getting into bacteria size.

PUR Outdoors (now owned by katadyn) used to make filters which also incorporated a matrix of iodine resin, the theory was that all cooties making contact with the iodine would be killed just about instantly, a small amount of iodine would leach into the water and continue active purification. The flavor could be unpleasant, so PUR included an activated carbon post filter, but it was found that this post filter sometimes screwed up the efficiency of the method against some cooties. PUR was forced to withdraw the design from the market and retrofitted the Hiker style filter system to the iodine matrix pump bodies. I don't use the carbon post filter anymore (too bulky and heavy) so I am actually still working off my personal stock of iodine filters for my PUR Explorer and Scout.

The most important thing to remember with water filters is to keep the input and output hoses seperate and to avoid handling the output hose with hands wet from untreated water. Cleaning your filter should be done well away from your output hose, and clean your hands with soap and water or sanitizer when finished.

I use PUR filters and MSR filters (my primary hiking and climbing partner has MSRs). I have used a Sweetwater Guardian extensively on my thru-hike in 1995 from Gatlinburg, TN to Sheffield MA where I finally got sick of messing with the thing and bought a PUR Scout. The PUR Hiker is a good choice for a thru-hiker, it is small, light, has good output and good maintainability. After that I'd definitely go with the MSR Miniworks ceramics. THey might be a tad bulkier and heavier, and they pump slower, but they, like all MSR stuff, are tough as nails and field maintainable. The ceramic element will easily last an entire thru-hike or three. The newest models have a longer pump stroke to pump faster. I like the fact that you can just screw them onto Nalgene bottles and Dromedary bags, eliminates one hose to worry about, just cap the output nipple.

I HATED the Sweetwater. In my opinion, the Sweetwater, is easily the most prone to cross contamination. That bloody pressure relief filter is a disaster, they get jammed open and they spray contaminated water all over the place. The cleaning proceedure also tends to spray contaminated debris all over you. No fun. I found the filter elements lasted a small fraction of labelled lifespan, even when I used a special prefilter and coffee filters over the pre-filter. My PUR Scout was extraordinary.

BTW, I'm not real confident of the safety of the PUR explorer either. It's pressure relief valve has a similar vulnerability.

Both makers claim that the water exiting pressure relief is safe...logically it CANNOT be. Pressure builds in a filter only on the dirty side of the membranes/filters as the filter surface gets clogged and needs cleaning. To relieve that pressure, you must vent some of the pressurized water from the pressure vessel or stop pushing on the pump. So when the pressure relief valves open up, the ONLY place that water can be coming from is the dirty side of the filter. It must be dirty water. I consider the Sweetwater to be unsafe. The PUR Explorer is better built, but I think it may also be unsafe in that respect.

My filter choices in order of preference for a thru-hike

PUR/Katadyn Hiker
MSR Miniworks ceramic, latest model
PUR Scout or Guide or whatever they call it.

Blue Wolf
10-17-2003, 22:18
Now to me that was a helpfull & well written post ansered a few things that I was curious about.

Thanks Iceman:)

Peaks
10-22-2003, 18:35
Read the article in the December 2003 issue of Backpacker magazine.

B Thrash
10-22-2003, 20:17
[QUOTE]Originally posted by icemanat95

The only time I got sick while hiking was thew direct result of not treating a suspect water source. The reason I didn't treat it? It was a public water source, came right out of the spigot at the public beach you pass at the dam a day or so south of damascus. That sucked in the extreme.


Iceman:

You must have drinked directly out of Lake Watuaga, the hillbillies
in this area may have poisoned you. About a quarter of a mile north when hikers had to do some road walking before the the trail was re-routed was where they would tie vicious dogs near the road intimidate you and would tie fish hooks up in trees just up the trail to catch un-suspecting hikers, When I come through here a few years ago the dogs was tied out and their owners was standing in the yard watching the dogs try to rip lose from the ropes and eat a hiker whole. I did manage to get by without any dog bites or fish hooks stuck in me. Since the trail re-location I do not know of any problems in this area. (The dogs and fish hook thing must have worked for them, they got rid of the hikers)

icemanat95
10-23-2003, 00:13
When I hiked through in 1995 there were no fish hooks and no-one I knew had ever seen such a thing or heard a truly credible first person account of them, I tend to think they are a trail myth. However, I know a guy who hiked in 1992 or 93, he was stalked by a local kid from the area who shot him twice with a bb gun, hitting him in the butt.

The dogs I can attest to though. There was one Rottweiler in the neighborhood that was chained to a truck axle half buried in the yard. I wasn't too worried about the dog. Dog's don't scare me much as I can be far meaner than most dogs and I'm usually better armed. What scared me in that neighborhood were the owners of the dogs. Unfortunately, people who feel compelled to own viscious dogs are generally viscious people and value their dogs more than the safety of others passing by innocently.

The bad vibes in that particular neighborhood are the direct result of the government policy of eminent domain seizure. The local folks lost the use of their land to allow us to hike on a recreational trail. That's gotta stick in your craw. It doesn't matter how much money the government offers to compensate you with (never full market value) it's the fact that the government just steamrolls right over your rights and takes that land from you against your will. It's a nasty way of doing things even when it is necessary, but in my opinion, recreational trails, shopping malls and residential developments don't cut the mustard.

It probably was Wautauga Lake...There is a public beach there with a water spigot. We drew water there and the next day both of us were starting to feel the effects. Two days later I was losing fluids violently from both ends, and the day after that my partner was down. I filtered from beaver ponds in the north and nasty mineral laden streams in other places. I never got sick from any of that, but that spigot got me good.

bunbun
10-23-2003, 09:08
Originally posted by icemanat95
When I hiked through in 1995 there were no fish hooks and no-one I knew had ever seen such a thing or heard a truly credible first person account of them, I tend to think they are a trail myth.

Not so - the fish hooks were real and were found by Tom Thwaites (Pennsylvania Creeper) during his thruhike. I forget the year, but it was the same year the shelter burned in that area. Tom is a retired Penn State physics professor and the author of the 50 Hikes in Pennsylvania books (all 3 of them). He headed the Keystone Trails Assoc Trailcare program for a dozen or more years.

Lone Wolf
10-23-2003, 09:12
It was 1989.

greyowl
10-23-2003, 09:18
I personally saw fish hooks near the AT. I was a student at ETSU back in the early 70's. I took a field ecology course and I had to do a plant survey on top of Roan Mountain. I was warned before hand that there were some unsavory people who utilizied the top of the mountain to hide their stills. I had recently returned to school after serving a year in a sunny south eastern asian country and I was pretty good at spotting booby traps. I disarmed several fish hook/fishingline traps in my three month studies. Moonshiners are not the problem anymore, it is the pot growers. I still haven't lost the touch of spotting booby traps and found one two years ago in the same area.

Grey Owl

icemanat95
10-23-2003, 09:59
Interesting, where the booby traps right on the trail or off trail protecting some growing site? I never saw anything of the sort in 1995 and I was looking (I also have some experience with that sort of thing), though not as much as you by a fair margin.

greyowl
10-23-2003, 10:26
Fish Hooks

They were not on the trail, but they were all within 250 yds. This was of concern for my plant inventory as the at sort of ran diagonally through my study area.

The fish hooks are probably near the growing area. They were pretty far from the trail, but still probably close enough to the trail so that one would not want to wander more than a couple of hundred yards off of the trail. Interestingly enough I have just learned that there has not been any growing of pot in the area for a number of years and the fish hooks may have been old. Still caution is always a good thing for hiking the trail.

I should note that moonshiners were worse than the pot growers. The former would rather shot first and ask questions later (Hey sounds like the local police force).

Grey Owl

bunbun
10-23-2003, 10:39
Thanks, LW -

And yeah, in 89 they were strung across the Trail. At eye level.

Lone Wolf
10-23-2003, 11:02
From the 1990 Philosopher's Guide (pre-Wingfoot) concerning the 19E area: 89 hiker hoofing US19E was hit in the chest by a full can of beer thrown by passing car of "unfriendlys". Also: Back in the late 70s, four women hikers were physically abused while they camped in a field along the former roadwalk. The men, who were drunk, got their trucks stuck in the muddy field and were quickly apprehended. The burned down Don Nelan shelter that used to be between 19E and Moreland Gap saw trouble too: An 89 thru-hikersuffered an attempted rape between here and Moreland Gap shelter.
The area is calm nowadays. Back in 92 while thru-hiking I got 3 other hikers to walk the old road walk through that area with me. I wanted to see if we would have any confrontations. We didn't but got some hateful stares.

Nightwalker
12-04-2003, 15:39
Over 16k hiking the AT and I NEVER treated or filtered a drop of water. Never been sick. Just say no to water treatment!:D

Wolf,

I wonder if it's from the same reason as I attribute my lack-o-miseries from? I grew up in the sticks, playing in the woods all the time, and drank from the nearest creek whenever I got thirsty. I never got sick from it as a kid, and I guess I got iron gut in the process.

Strangely enough, I caught a dose of giardia as a young adult, but it wasn't at a time when I was anytime near wild-water! weirdness abounds, and life goes on.

I do carry a Sweetwater Walkabout, but I only use it about 1/3 of the time. Always from rivers, rarely from sandy springs.

Frank