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wilconow
10-20-2003, 14:42
i plan on hiking here in maryland through the coldest winter months. guess that means the worse it'll get will be in the teens with a slightly lower windchill

couple questions -


I have a camelbak pack with an omega 100 oz resovoir. I also bring a bottle of water in my pack in case I run out. In general, how cold does it have to be for the water in the resovoir and pack to freeze?
While wearing layers, do you find that you take the outer layer off when you are particuarly pushing yourself (like when in the middle of a big climb).. .even if it is really cold out?
Does even a little bit of snow make hiking around rocky areas very tough?


Thanks.

chris
10-20-2003, 16:21
One of my resolutions when coming off the PCT was to be less long winded. I'm breaking that rather grossly here.

I haven't used a bladder, but have used water bags (like those made by Platypus), which I believe are a bit thinner than a standard hydration system. I had a few nights in the Sierra this summer with overnight temps in the low 20s. Water froze, but not entirely. That is, I had about a liter of water in the bag when I went to sleep and in the more I had maybe 1/2 liter of water and the rest was ice. However, it probably did not get down to freezing until 9 pm or so.

In the Smokys I've had daily temps in the low 30s with overnights in the teens and had 4 liters of water freeze more or less solid. If it gets very cold, take your water to bed with you (i.e, put it in your sleeping bag) or (if using a bottle) turn it upside down (water freezes on top. turning it upside down leaves you with some usable water in the morning).

While hiking, you want to wear as little as possible while still able to stay warm. This is usually far less than you might think. The cold isn't so much your enemy. Liquid is. Once you get wet, your chances of getting hypothermia are become much greater. So, if you are sweating too much and drenching your clothes, you are going to freeze when you stop hiking, either for a break or for the day. One of the first things I always do when coming into a camp at the end of the day is to put on warm, dry clothes. The hardest part of all this is coming out of a break. You know you need to shed layers, but you are also still chilled from the break. It is very easy to leave layers on and get them soaked. You'll need to exercise discipline to take off the layers after a few minutes of hiking. One thing you might want to think about is bringing two hats and two gloves/mittens. One hat is for camp. The other (and it can just be an ear band/warmer) is for hiking. One pair of gloves can be a light, liner glove type (Fox River makes some). These cost about $5. The other can be warm mittens, etc, for in camp. Another thought is to bring two thermal underwear tops: One heavy weight (for in camp), the other lightweight for hiking in (wear a windbreaker over it for heat retention).

Snow generally doesn't become a problem for travel, except in a few cases. Here are some.

1) There is enough snow to obscure the trail. This usually isn't a problem on the AT because of the blazes.

2) There is enough snow that you posthole. This sucks but usually isn't dangerous because the trail underneath is usually mostly clear of debris.

3) The snow melts and freezes on rocks and roots as ice.

Point 3 really sucks becuase it is hard to spot. I wouldn't worry too much about footing, though.

One of the best tips for staying warm during a winter hike is soup. Once you get into camp and have put dry, warm clothes on, fetch water and make up some soup. A lot. Like a liter or more. Water down a packet as much as you want. The idea here is not flavor, but rather hot liquid, which warms you up incedibly and also helps rehydrate you. Few people like drinking cold water in the winter.

DebW
10-20-2003, 16:30
Are you talking about day hiking or overnight hikes?

(1) Water freezes at 32F (that's the temp of the water in your bottle, not the outside temp). So...
start with warm water if possible and insulate the bottle inside your pack. Depending on temperature, wind, and insulation, the water may stay liquid a couple hours to all day. If using a hydration system, blow air into the hose after every drink so that no water remains in the hose. Otherwise the hose and bite valve will freeze very quickly. Wide-mouth Nalgene bottles are the most trust-worthy container below freezing. Carry them upside down in your pack so the lid will open even if the water starts to freeze.

(2) Yes. You will likely get down to 1-2 layers while working hard. Try your best not to sweat, so that your clothes stay dry. If it's snowy, keep your shell on so that snow doesn't stick to you.

(3) A little snow can sometimes make hiking on rocks tough. But usually it's not a big deal as long as the temperature stays below freezing. However, a lot of snow makes hiking on rock much easier! But guess that won't happen in Maryland.

wilconow
10-20-2003, 16:40
Originally posted by DebW
Are you talking about day hiking or overnight hikes?

thanks for your replies chris and DebW.

For now I am just a dayhiker. (sorry chris.. though I'm sure someone else will find your cold-weather camping comments helpful)

oh yeah, about the camelbak - does anyone recommend the insultation thing they sell?

DebW
10-20-2003, 17:06
Just wrap your water in your extra fleece clothing and keep it in the middle of your pack. Never tried hose insulation, but I suspect it doesn't work very well and only slightly delays the inevitable.

asmtroop3
10-20-2003, 18:37
I wear my bladder close to my body and run the tube inside as well. I sleep with it under my head/shoulder and tested in -12 below F, it has yet to freeze

Skyline
10-21-2003, 13:14
I use a Camelback reservoir, used to use a Platypus. I found that in weather near freezing the bite valve/hose froze first. To delay this or stop it altogether while hiking I found that once you've had a drink it pays to blow into the bite valve to get as much water as possible out of it and the hose.

As for camping overnight in sub-freezing temps, I found it pays big time to EMPTY all water from the Camelback, being sure to blow water out of the bite valve/hose first.

Also, carry at least one Nalgene bottle and fill it with HEATED water before bed. It makes a terrific heater to keep YOU toasty in the bag, and by morning tho your water will be cold it won't usually be frozen if you keep it in the bag with you. This water can go back into your Camelback/Platypus before you start hiking in the morning. This does require more fuel of course so it needs to be planned for.

If you are in conditions where temps will likely stay below, say, 40 degrees during the day getting any other frozen water you're carrying will be a struggle to completely melt so you may want to sleep with as much water as you can safely manage--using containers that won't leak and aren't filled to capacity.

icemanat95
10-21-2003, 14:20
I use wide mouth Nalgene bottles in the Winter simply because they are nigh on industructable and leakproof. I keep one water bottle handy in an insulated bottle parka attached to my pack belt. The other is buried in my pack wrapped in clothes.

If temps are below freezing, water filters and chemicals are useless, the water will be too cold to filter (it'll freeze in the filter and ice crystals suspended in the water will start damaging the filter membranes) The chemicals will not achieve adequate contact with the pathogens because cold water circulates poorly at the molecular level. You can chemically treat cold water but you'll have to wait 8-24 hours to drink it...not a great option.

Boiling becomes the purification method of choice in sub freezing conditions. Take along plenty of fuel.

When you get ready to set out each day, boil up a couple liters of water. Pour it right on in and pack it up. That'll retain the warmth, and you'll want the warmth later.

At night, the first thing you do after setting up the tent, or maybe while your partner is setting up the tent, is to set up the stove and start brewing up. I recommend against coffee or tea for the evenings, the caffeine can keep you from sleeping well, and it will help to dehydrate you, which is a bad thing. You want to retain fluids at night because you WILL NOT drink enough during the day, precisely because gathering water is a pain in the neck in sub-freezing conditions.

Cup of soup is a good option for hot drinks. The salt will help you retain the water, and there is some extra fat for energy.

Fat is a whole food group all to itself on Winter hikes. It is an incredibly efficient energy source if you are active. Sticks of butter become attractive candy bars on extended cold-weather hikes.

You will spend A LOT more time in camp during the Winter months, there just isn't enough daylight to keep hiking much after 4:30-5:00 and the sun doesn't come up any too early either. You'll probably be looking to make camp at 3:30 or 4:00 so you have enough light to get things done, then you'll settle in for a long night. Hot drinks and snacks make this more bearable by a long shot. So does a good book.

You've got to think of your gear as multi-functional. Before going to sleep, boil up some water, fill your bottles and police your gear up so you can dress, pack up and get moving as quickly as possible. Your goal is to be able to grab sustainment gear and get outta dodge if things get really bad. This is more important at high altitude or in full on mountaineering conditions, but it's a good practice in general. Keep your stuff under control at all times so you can get at it and get at it fast. A lot of mountaineers do a lot of stuff in a nearly ritualistic fashion so it becomes almost automatic, that way if they are injured, sick, hypothermic, etc. they have a much better chance of doing the right thing, just out of habit, even if they are operating with diminished mental capacity and or judgement.

hot water bottles make great sleeping bag warmers by the way. They can also be used to keep your boots from freezing up, and can even dry them out. Put the bottles in tightly capped and upside down so if they do eventually freeze up, the tops won't be frozen shut. (Ice is less dense than liquid water, so it floats. Leave enough extra airspace in the bottle to allow for some freezing. )

Everything depends on heat management in winter hiking. You want to be warm, but not too warm, you always have to be ready to adjust your layers and an efficient moisture wicking base layer is critical. You want all your layers to shed moisture quickly and to breathe well. Goretex pays for itself on true winter jaunts where the fabric works best. The pressure differential between the warm, moist inner air and the cold, dry outside air is just what Goretex needs to work it's best...but in the real cold you will get frost formation on the inside of the fabric. That shakes right out though.

I plan on starting hiking feeling cold, because I know I'll only end up stopping after ten minutes to strip off the extra layers. More often than not, I end up hiking in a midweight thermal top, Drylete tights, a hat and some lightweight gloves. I keep a goretex jacket immediately handy so I can throw it on really fast, and my fleece is right under the lid of the pack. Side-zip pants with suspenders are also really nice since you don't have to struggle with your boots and the packbelt won't drive down the pants at the rear.

Again, ritualistic packing of gear is important in winter conditions so that everything ALWAYS goes in the same place every time, so you can find things in the dark, or direct someone else about where to find things. If you hike with a partner regularly, they need to know where your first aid stuff, repair stuff, etc. is. Labelling stuff sacks is also a good idea.

Winter conditions are unforgiving, but possibly the most rewarding conditions to hike under. Even the most crowded areas get downright sparse in the Winter.

Travel is slower in winter months. With less daylight and poorer hiking conditions, you just can't move along like you can in the summer. So don't plan on doing 15-20 mile days, some days you'll have all you can manage to knock out 8 or 10 miles. Some days you might struggle to do 5. Take each day as you find it and be prepared to camp an extra night or two.

Blue Jay
10-21-2003, 14:24
Excellent post

manzana
10-21-2003, 18:31
It seems like it would be impossible to form ice on a steep slope, but the Smokies have this ability. Some of the steep trails have seeps in them where the water oozes out and freezes to form an impossible ice ramp. I have found that a cheap pair of crampons can be a good investment in the winter. I was stopped cold along with some 14 other folks climbing from Newfound Gap to Icewater Springs 2 years ago. Everyone eventually turned back. 8-(

steve hiker
10-21-2003, 18:48
Turn your Nalgene water bottles upside down before you go to bed, because they freeze from top to bottom and you don't want the lid frozen on in the morning.

Better yet, screw the top on tight and put it in your sleeping bag with you. I wouldn't put any water-in-a-bag in my sleeping bag, period.

chris
10-21-2003, 18:49
If you find that you have to traverse some ice and really need all the traction you can get, tie some utility cord in loops around the bottoms of your boots. The extra traction is appreciable, but not, of course, as real crampons.

chknfngrs
10-21-2003, 22:43
you won't need it if you're only day hiking. Unless it's wickedly cold out. I had much success w/ the hoses in all types of weather and find that it only gets tough when it doesn't get used every so often.

BTW - WILCONOW it's not just a clever name is it? Tweedy don't sound right since nasal surgery.

smokymtnsteve
10-21-2003, 23:29
I don't put water in my sleeping bag period...

I have my two TI cook pots full at night and just let'em freeze..in the morning I just roll over and fire up the stove and melt'em ..boilem...breakfast hot tea and and water for hiking with just one stove fire up and I stay in the bag for the time...I add the hot water to what ever water froze in the nalgene (half and half) and it thaws right out.

your right about nights being long and batteries don't work as well when it;s real cold..so I take a candle latern in the winter a little heavy but I like having it on a long cold night....

chknfngrs
10-22-2003, 08:36
isn't it odd that you put batteries in the fridge/freezer to make them last longer but they work less when you need them most?maybe I should stop putting things other than ice cream in the freeze.

RagingHampster
10-22-2003, 08:43
I use a 1L soda bottle for my water. This is usually plenty for my average day-hike when combined with a rest-stop for warm fluids (Tea or Hot Chocolate via my alchy stove).

On an overnight, I bring my Whisperlite to melt snow. This then goes into 1 of 2 1L Bottles warm.

Haven't done many 3 day + hikes in the sub-freezing temps, but I would use the whisperlite tactic, making 2L of warm water twice a day or so depending on my activity.

During the summer I use a 1L bottle, and a 3L platypus for extra.

wilconow
10-22-2003, 14:18
Originally posted by chknfngrs
you won't need it if you're only day hiking. Unless it's wickedly cold out. I had much success w/ the hoses in all types of weather and find that it only gets tough when it doesn't get used every so often.

BTW - WILCONOW it's not just a clever name is it? Tweedy don't sound right since nasal surgery.

thank chkn. im leading hikes with the maryland outdoor club.. perhaps since you're in dc you might be interested (its free to join)

crampton to fox gap hike im leading (http://www.marylandoutdoorclub.org/events/details.asp?eventid=149)

did you see wilco in june? tweedy sounded pretty good then

whcobbs
02-23-2004, 16:31
Wilconow--

By now maybe you know all this, but anyway here's my experience. In PA it's usually possible to winter hike the AT relying on springs for your water supply. They rarely freeze out even in 0 F weather. A GatorAde bottle insulated with a Primaloft cozy or wool socks will usually keep the spring water liquid for about 6 hours. You can extend this by carrying it inside your parka should ice form. Since springs will usually be closer than 6 hr apart, the time window is adequate. At night if you are fearful of putting the water bottle inside your sleeping bag, bury it in the snow with some good marker for location. Only minor crystal formation will occur overnight. You will probably want to carry two insulated bottles to assure hydration. With this system, you can rely on a Pepsi can alcohol stove and don't need to resort to larger heavier gasoline/propane stoves for snow melting.

Walt

i plan on hiking here in maryland through the coldest winter months. guess that means the worse it'll get will be in the teens with a slightly lower windchill

couple questions -


I have a camelbak pack with an omega 100 oz resovoir. I also bring a bottle of water in my pack in case I run out. In general, how cold does it have to be for the water in the resovoir and pack to freeze?
While wearing layers, do you find that you take the outer layer off when you are particuarly pushing yourself (like when in the middle of a big climb).. .even if it is really cold out?
Does even a little bit of snow make hiking around rocky areas very tough?


Thanks.