PDA

View Full Version : Better Safe Than Sorry



c.coyle
10-27-2003, 12:34
I'm feeling a little guilty, bear with me.

My wife and I hiked the AT yesterday (Sunday, 10/26/03) from Duncannon, PA. south to Route 944. About 12.7 miles. The half closest to Duncannon is rough and rocky, with a few precarious ledges on the side of Cove Mountain. The southern half is lots of field walking through very rural farmland. Lots of big blow downs still left from Hurricane Isabel (one forced us to slog 200' up a small creek). Two character building climbs.

Yesterday was also the first day of standard time and rain was predicted for early evening.

Anyway, by 1:40 P.M. we were at Route 850, over 8 miles away from Duncannon, trudging through a pasture in the middle of nowhere. Suddenly, two vans stop and disgorge about 6 teenagers, at least 6 kids who looked to be between 5 and 8 y.o, and two adult women. Summer clothes, sneakers, no packs, no water that I could see. They start walking northbound toward us.

One lady says to me "Where did you come from?" "Duncannnon. Where are you folks headed?" "Duncannon!" she says.

I stupidly keep walking, but it quickly dawns on me that Duncannon is _at least_ 4 hours away for them, meaning no earlier than 5:40 p.m. It'll be getting dark by then, and maybe raining. The last mile and a half will be a fairly steep, rocky descent.

I thought about turning around and telling these two grownups all of the above, but didn't. Mind my own business, etc. I got home and was worrying all night that I'd done the wrong thing. Guess what I found this morning:

http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/2583978/detail.html

I feel sick. From now on, I'm speaking up.

Lone Wolf
10-27-2003, 12:41
I'm willing to bet that even if you told the adults about the time change and forthcoming weather they'd have gone on anyway. You ARE NOT responsible. The adults were.

c.coyle
10-27-2003, 12:46
I know I'm not responsible, but I should have at least said something. The folks driving those vans (I'm figuring they were going to drive to Duncannon and pick them up there) are as responsible as the grownup hikers.

Footslogger
10-27-2003, 13:03
Not saying that the end always justifies the means but ...the article did say that no one was injured. Sometimes those are the best lessons learned. I passed a lot of hikers this year during my through hike that were going in the opposite direction (mainly slackpacking) late in the afternoon. I often mentioned to them that they'd better hustle in order to be off the trail by night fall but they generally shrugged off my comments as if I was trying to be a know-it-all. Don't know if any of them ever got into trouble but figured that they were hiking their own hike and moved on.

icemanat95
10-27-2003, 13:03
Lone Wolf is right that the adults "leading" thr group are ultimately responsible for that group. Sounds to me like they were woefully underprepared to begin with. Poor clothing, no safety equipment, etc.

When hiking with children, the adults need to be overprepared for things to go off plan. They need to be prepared almost for an overnight trip, even if the trip is only going to be for a few hours. All it takes is one bad injury to throw everything off badly.

To me, this means that the adults in the group should have a tent, a sleeping bag, a good first aid kit, a stove and pot of some sort, a means of gathering and carrying several liters of water. hot drink mix. instant soup, and maybe an MRE or two (strip out the extra crap, just carry the food) . Also, spare mittens and hats would be a great idea. This means that there is going to be about twenty pounds of safety gear to spread amongst the group leaders, or better yet, two sets. Additionally having a few headlamps and an LED keychain lights for each kid would be an excellent precaution. Turn them on when the light goes down and don't turn them off until you count the kids into the van.

Leading a trip with someone else's kids on it requires you to be as protective of those kids as you would hope someone else would be of yours. If you don't have kids and don't yet understand this emotion. I'll shortcut it for you. The average parent would rather be fed slowly, feet first into a chipper/shredder than see their child come to harm. A slight overstatement maybe, but that puts you in the ballpark. So as the temporary guardian of someone else's child, it is incumbent upon you to defens that child from harm and to do everything you can to avoid putting that child in unreasonable risk.

The group leaders in this case failed to meet that responsibility. It was entirely in their power to know that we had converted to standard time, and it was entirely in their power to realize that children travel less than half as fast as able adults due to shorter legs, even shorter attention spans, and more limited energy reserves. You've got to work to keep them moving once they get tired and bored. THey didn't have enough time to do what they planned and either lacked the experience or the common sense to figure it out before hand.

That said, while no one is going to blame you, least of all me, it is probably a good idea to speak up when you see someone doing something bone-headed in the backcountry. I cannot say I would have said anything either, I can be horribly isolationist when I hike, but in theory, it is better to be safe and help others to be safe, than to go through the second guessing you are enduring now. BUT IT ISN"T YOUR FAULT.

smokymtnsteve
10-27-2003, 13:41
hind sight is 20/20....many the time I have talked to folks that i have seen going in tottally unprepared...

I rememer one groups of overweight guys I as I was coming down mt leconte one evening....(this was about my 23 trip up and down le conte that season) I talked with them ...asked'em where they were going ..asked if they had done this kinda of thing before( even though the answer was obvious)....

then I told them that this was my 23rd hike up and down this trail this year and that I COULDNT possibly make it before dark..did they think they could...and did they have headlights???

well no headlights and not a very good flashlight ..but they thought they could make it..

have no idea what happened..but folks like this just don't listen


Maybe the adults will be tried and convicted of CHILD ABUSE!

Lone Wolf
10-27-2003, 13:45
The kids are the innocent ones. They're clueless. If adults do stupid things in the backcountry and die, oh well. Weeds out the gene pool. They won't breed.

c.coyle
10-27-2003, 14:15
All's well that ends well.

What really had me upset was the thought of little kids, the snot scared out of them, wet and shivering in the dark, on top of that hill. What an intro to hiking.

The grownups deserved it, and I hope they get dozens of calls and visits from irate parents. Whoever said they ought to be charged with child neglect isn't too far off. In Pa. we have a crime known as "recklessly endangering another person".

bam_bam
02-15-2004, 04:28
Suppose you had of said something. Do you honestly believe they would have listened to you? No. Laughed at you and probably tell you to mind your own business...probably. They were determined and nothing you or anyone else would have said would made any difference. By them telling you where they were going, they knew..beforehand...what they were up against. It was their job to prepare and foresee that hike...not yours. Years from now, when those kids grow up, they won't remember you from Job's housecat, however they will call the adults that accompanied them...morons. Kids are smart. They know who's to blame. So, stop blaming yourself.

Bonehead
02-15-2004, 07:07
Sound like bone heads to me. The hole lot of them.

loonyhiker
02-15-2004, 07:28
One spring we were at Ramsey Cascades in the Smokies which is an 8 mile round trip hike. As we were on our way back to the car, about a mile up the trail, we came across this family of 4: mom, dad, and 2 children, one who was in an umbrella stroller. They were all in sandals, no packs or water, and they were struggling with the stroller on the trail. When asked about how far the waterfalls were, we told them that it was very far and this was a difficult hike (especially with a stroller!). We really tried to discourage them from doing it but was totally ignored. After telling them that it took us hours to do it, they shrugged their shoulders and said they were willing and continued on. I'm sure they didn't go far, but people like that make me frustrated. Media label them "hikers" when they have to be rescued, which make all of us, who know better, look stupid.

DeBare
02-15-2004, 09:33
I agree with loonyhiker not everyone on the trails are hikers "the Media label them "hikers" when they have to be rescued, which make all of us, who know better, look stupid." As far as the first posting ,If you have doubts tell them anyways just to be sure. In the case of a couple of adults and a bunch of kids
I would have told the adults in private how hard it would be to go on, so they would not look bad infront of the kids. I guess if you wanted to be a hero you could have waited a little then follow them and then when they got in trouble bail them out then the media could have said Thruhikers save lost kids. Then the kids would have thought highly of real hikers.

MOWGLI
02-15-2004, 10:22
I've got a good story about poor judgement from this section of trail.

In 2000, I stayed at Scott Farm about 11 miles north of Boiling Springs. By the way, Scott Farm is not a place hikers can expect to stay at (it's a LONG story).

In the morning, I headed out with the intent of reaching Duncannon. It was a brutally hot day in June. Perhaps 95 degrees with high humidity. I started hiking at first light.

When I reached the first shelter up on a ridge, there were (2) adults and a young boy there. The boy seemed traumatized. Turns out a bear had come into camp and menaced them for several hours (or so they said - could have been 15 minutes). Some of their gear had been torn up. A pot had teeth marks on it. The kid was really frightened. Turns out they left a large bag of garbage (containing food scraps) on the picnic table. The bear had grabbed it, run off, then returned to the shelter for more.

Then one of the adults tells me that they plan on hiking 20 miles that day (while the kid cowered in the shelter - fearing the bears return). I cautioned them that it was unusually hot, and they should reconsider. Nope, Father knows best. He was a scout leader, or so he claimed. I implored them to drink extra water, and be careful.

I hiked off to Duncannon, and thought about that poor kid much of the day.

The next day I hear that a man was rescued off of the AT after suffering from heat stroke. Wouldn't you know it! It was the same genius I met the prior day. Thankfully the kid was apparently OK.

My guess? The kid won't be much of a backpacker in future years.

c.coyle
02-15-2004, 12:03
So, stop blaming yourself.

I did, about 4 months ago. Now I feel re-traumatized ;)

Seriously, I will speak up next time. Life's no fun if you don't p**s someone off occasionally. And, it might actually do some good.

Interesting how this thread got spontaneously re-activated.

I just noticed at the bottom of the screen that two "similar threads" are "Why is beef jerky safe?" and "Beware of Potato Salad" Hmmmm.

illininagel
02-15-2004, 16:07
Now I feel re-traumatized.

IMO, you shouldn't feel traumatized at all--especially since no one was hurt.

I have some related experiences (I apologize in advance for the length of my ramblings):

First, my brother and I were day hiking in Big Basin (Redwood) State Park. It was getting late in the day, so we decided that we would only walk a mile or two down the trail before returning to the car. A hiker, apparently trying to "protect" us from ourselves, insisted that the hike down to the falls was more than we could handle in just an hour or two. After trying to assure him that we knew what we were doing, he still didn't let up. To say his antics were annoying was an understatement. He started yelling at us: "What kind of shape do you think you are in?" and so forth. Of course, we proceeded to do the hike without any incident.

On the flip side, I tried to warn a few hikers in Rocky National Park that they might be looking for trouble. One guy was apparently in the midst of a day hike---he had nothing but a small daypack and a canteen. We met him on the trail just as we were about to set up camp for the night---during a backpacking trip. The problem was that it was only an hour or two before dusk and he was a good seven rugged miles away from the nearest road. When I warned him that he was risking spending the night in the cold backcountry, he said that he would try to take a "short cut" around the back of one of the lakes. I was familiar enough with the terrain to know that his chances of getting out via that route were minimal---there was no established trail and glaciers were placed between him and his exit route. Despite our objections, he ventured out toward the lake. I don't know what happened to him. :datz

Similarly, a family of 5 was walking over the tundra in Rocky Mountain National Park at about 2 PM one afternoon. We warned them that the weather patterns up there were very unpredictabe. In fact, the National Park Service recommends avoiding that area during the afternoons. Additionally, when they told me that they were heading for the town of Grand Lake, I informed them that they still had 15 miles to go! Despite the warnings, they headed toward Grand Lake! God knows how they ever made it---two of the kids must have been younger than 8 years old. They had no protection against the elements, no food and very little water. :datz

Do I feel bad? In a way. But, I guess some people have to learn for themselves. The way that I first learned wasn't pleasant. I nearly killed myself hiking in the Grand Canyon on a hot summer afternoon without sufficient water. Dehydration and heat stroke symptoms set in far in on a remote trail. I guess it wasn't my time--we miraculously sited a shallow swamp and drank enough of the disgusting water to ensure short-term survival. If I can help it, never again will I get caught in the backcountry without enough water! :jump

Kerosene
02-15-2004, 20:15
These are additional examples where having a map and a guidebook can reinforce the message you're trying to convey. Sometimes people will only believe what they see in print or on a map (even if an inaccurate trail elevation profile can make someone think twice).

I ran across a young woman heading south 3 miles out of Snickers Gap (just north of Sam Moore Shelter) a few years ago in mid-October. I asked where she was heading and she replied "home to Bluemont". Well, I happened to remember seeing that town on my trail map, but to the north of Snickers Gap. She didn't believe me so I made her look at the map with me and she finally concurred. Turns out she had asked her friend to drop her off at the Gap and had just struck out for home. There wasn't another road crossing for another 10-12 miles south and she wouldn't have made it the 7 miles through the Rollercoaster to Rod Hollow by nightfall. While she might have survived the 40-degree temperatures it would not have been fun and I'm sure a lot of people would have been worried. I tried to keep her in sight as she backtracked but she lost me on the uphill to Bears Den Hostel.

Doctari
02-16-2004, 10:50
I have given this some thought over the pst few days, and have come to the conclusion the following:

In our "It's not my fault, NOTHInG is my fault, Someone else should have (prevented me, stopped me, taught me better, etc.)" era, if you had drawn more attention to yourself by pointing out the obvious, they may (Possibly) have blamed you for not being forceful enough: " I didnt know any better, some hikers tried to stop me but I thought they were kidding, its all their fault they should have tried harder."

Late last year (2003) a lady sued a department store for injury & mental anguish because a child was running wild and caused her to trip & fall, she won the suit. The child that caused her to fall was her own undiciplined son.

You did not do wrong, the leaders took the responsibility and unprepared as they were, they are still responsible. As was the lady in the department store.

Rain Man
02-16-2004, 12:42
Late last year (2003) a lady sued a department store for injury & mental anguish because a child was running wild and caused her to trip & fall, she won the suit. The child that caused her to fall was her own undiciplined son.

Another outrageous-lawsuit Urban Myth?

Rain Man

.

Doctari
02-16-2004, 13:09
Another outrageous-lawsuit Urban Myth?

Rain Man

.


Could be, but highly belivable aint it? Even so, burglars get to sue for being hurt while robbing your house, so why not for getting hurt by your own kid in a store? :-?

I still believe nothing could have been done to change the minds of the afore mentioned "leaders" as this is probably a good idea of what is / was in their heads = :bse

and the parents after finding out what loosers they let watch their kids = :datz

Doctari.

c.coyle
02-16-2004, 13:12
I have given this some thought over the pst few days, and have come to the conclusion the following:

In our "It's not my fault, NOTHInG is my fault, Someone else should have (prevented me, stopped me, taught me better, etc.)" era, if you had drawn more attention to yourself by pointing out the obvious, they may (Possibly) have blamed you for not being forceful enough: " I didnt know any better, some hikers tried to stop me but I thought they were kidding, its all their fault they should have tried harder."

Late last year (2003) a lady sued a department store for injury & mental anguish because a child was running wild and caused her to trip & fall, she won the suit. The child that caused her to fall was her own undiciplined son.

You did not do wrong, the leaders took the responsibility and unprepared as they were, they are still responsible. As was the lady in the department store.

Thanks to you all for consoling me and being so supportive ;), but as I tried to make clear a few messages ago, I don't blame myself, and never did, other than for not speaking up. What happens or doesn't happen to people who act like knuckleheads, and the poor kids they supervise, is not our problem. I did feel sorry for the kids, however. If it would have been just grownups, it wouldn't have bothered me a bit.

However, it doesn't hurt to say something. If they laugh at you, so what? That's how I intend to handle these situations from now on. Believe me (I'm in the business) you're not going to get sued because you didn't try hard enough to talk another "hiker" out of something stupid.

[BEGIN OFF TOPIC RANT] The story about a lady suing because she tripped over her own kid is complete BS. http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp. Next time someone tells you something like that, ask them for (1) the names of the parties involved in the lawsuit and (2) the name of the Court it was filed in. It amazes me how many people say they don't trust anything they read or see in "the media", but automatically swallow balderdash like this, hook, line, and sinker, when the same "media" reports it.[END OF RANT]