View Full Version : Competing Guidebooks discussion
SGT Rock
08-16-2007, 20:37
Hey gues, looks like someone was already working a new trail guide anyway:
www.atguidebook.com (http://www.atguidebook.com)
Probably another hiker fed up with errors in the guidebooks.
Skidsteer
08-16-2007, 20:58
Hey gues, looks like someone was already working a new trail guide anyway:
www.atguidebook.com (http://www.atguidebook.com)
Probably another hiker fed up with errors in the guidebooks.
Hmmm.
Looks like a shady website to me :D
SGT Rock
08-16-2007, 21:01
N, actually I got a hold of the owner (not reveling who or how) and it turns out this is 100% legit. Turns out their sense of timing is either great, or they should play the lottery more.
Pedaling Fool
08-16-2007, 21:13
That's one bold move to compete with the Companion. I've never been involved with production of a guidebook, but I can only imagine how tough a job it would be, especially with a trail as long as the AT and all the ancillary information that is associated; not to mention things change every year.
I just don't know how WF did it in his later years. I know he must have gotten some help, but I don't think he had nearly the resources as the Companion, again in the later years.
Yes I know the owner as well. I have also contacted them and expressed that WhiteBlaze also has a guidebook coming out. We published it last year for a trial run and to secure our copyrights by publishing. We are making corrections to it now and working on it and hoping to make it public for the 2008 hiking season. I hope they are not infringing on our copyrights.
Jim Adams
08-17-2007, 01:17
...but none of them has had the friendly, down home feeling that the PHILOSOPHER'S GUIDE offered.
geek
N, actually I got a hold of the owner (not reveling who or how) and it turns out this is 100% legit. Turns out their sense of timing is either great, or they should play the lottery more.
Because the domain (atguidebook.com) was created yesterday, I would say this is a case of opportunism, not serendipity.
Interestingly, you brought this site to our attention the same day the domain name was registered. Maybe you should play the lottery more. :D
SGT Rock
08-17-2007, 06:16
Naw, people trust me.
But, I doubt anyone put together a guide in the last 4 days and started the publishing process then threw up a website. More likely they have been working this a while and put up the website as a last step sort of deal.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 06:28
What Rock says about the new domain. Considering who has registered it, I imagine it has been in the works for a while.
I do hope somebody ends up putting out a guidebook with phone numbers to contact both emergency and non-emergency medical care providers on or near the trail. Things like stress / repetitive use injuries, falls or slides, bug bites that turn nasty, bronchitis, walking pneumonia, Lyme, etc. happen out there. It sure would be nice to have a list of docs who are taking new patients or are willing to see hikers on a one-time basis and hospitals / clinics that give emergent care.
SGT Rock
08-17-2007, 06:29
Well personally I think a digitial database that is customizable is the way to go,
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 06:32
::: Dino notes that great minds think alike :D:D:D :::
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 07:49
...but none of them has had the friendly, down home feeling that the PHILOSOPHER'S GUIDE offered.
geek
Amen, geek!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 13:22
From another thread:
I think a thread debating the merits of compteting guidebooks would be interesting.
The WF thread was being taken over by the guidebook discussion - one which is obviously important. Rather than delete the off topic posts, I have moved the posts to this thread so the discussion can continue.
A good friend of mine publishes guidebooks for the PCT and the CDT.
She has a "who we are" section so you know that the people dispensensing the advice can "walk the walk" and "talk the talk". She also offers sample chapters in PDF format so you can see what you will be buying.
I think Person X may want to offer something similar.
People may be more likely to buy a guidebook if they know the person has some AT experience (Would someone want to buy a Florida Trail book from me? Someone has never hiked the FT?) and offer some sample chapters.
I'd be hesitant to buy a new guidebook site unseen. Others may feel similar.
Just my opinion.
smokymtnsteve
08-17-2007, 13:41
why have a guide book at all????
Probably another hiker fed up with errors in the guidebooks.
It's practically impossible to have all the data up-to-date in a hard copy guidebook. Most data is gathered in spring and summer for the following year. Businesses change or go out, relos take place etc. For the most part, the info in the Companion is up-to-date. Hikers need to understand this and stop being so critical. IMO, by buying a private guide such as WF's Thru-hiker Handbook or the new AT guide, rather than one published by the ATC, you're taking money from the trail.
I do hope somebody ends up putting out a guidebook with phone numbers to contact both emergency and non-emergency medical care providers on or near the trail.
I thought the purpose of 911 was to make the need for part of what Dino suggests unnecessary.:confused: As for non-emergency providers, don't people need a referral from a general practitioner with most insurance plans anyway?
::: Hopes Dino won't take off right toes too, but realizes if they're bitten off there's no risk of frostbite to them that would matter to me. Maybe I'd be better off.:p :::
I do hope somebody ends up putting out a guidebook with phone numbers to contact both emergency and non-emergency medical care providers on or near the trail. Things like stress / repetitive use injuries, falls or slides, bug bites that turn nasty, bronchitis, walking pneumonia, Lyme, etc. happen out there. It sure would be nice to have a list of docs who are taking new patients or are willing to see hikers on a one-time basis and hospitals / clinics that give emergent care.
Besides calling 911, I think the Companion provides much of the info. Although they may not list every doc taking on new patients they do list medical providers in trail towns such as hospitals and clinics.
...but none of them has had the friendly, down home feeling that the PHILOSOPHER'S GUIDE offered.
geek
Amen, geek!
Teej, if you believe that kind of guide would be desirable and hikers want that kind of guide, why doesn't ALDHA offer it?
I'm not sure this is the place to discuss all aspects of that question, but it is a good question, don't you think?
A good friend of mine publishes guidebooks for the PCT and the CDT.
She has a "who we are" section so you know that the people dispensensing the advice can "walk the walk" and "talk the talk". She also offers sample chapters in PDF format so you can see what you will be buying.
I think Person X may want to offer something similar.
People may be more likely to buy a guidebook if they know the person has some AT experience (Would someone want to buy a Florida Trail book from me? Someone has never hiked the FT?) and offer some sample chapters.
I'd be hesitant to buy a new guidebook site unseen. Others may feel similar.
Just my opinion.
I certainly understand your POV and may even share the same sentiment.
Assuming the AT Guidebook is compact, lightweight and contains all the info a hiker needs, in a format that's better than the competition, would it matter if the author had never hiked the trail?
Really all we need is one good source of up to date information about the trail and services. Why not just devote our energies to the ALDHA companion? There's a publication that benefits both the ATC and ALDHA, 2 great trail organizations.
Assuming the AT Guidebook is compact, lightweight and contains all the info a hiker needs, in a format that's better than the competition, would it matter if the author had never hiked the trail?
I am going to write a guide to Spain. I've never set foot there at all. I have read books about it and I will be copying the data from other other books.
Want to buy my guidebook?
I am writing a guide to mountain biking. I don't own a mountain bike and I have not been mountain biking since 1999. I've read some articles on it. I know mountain bikers.
Would you buy the guide?
And so on...
When people write about a subject, I hope they have some experience to back it up.
An author does not have to be an expert..but having first hand knowledge of the subject is helpful. And, I think,other people will feel the same way.
It wll help sell the books (along with a sample chapters).
Just my opinion.
Also, a thought just occured to me: The field editors of the companion are just that FIELD editors. First hand knowledge of their area. I think, in part, that is why the companion works well.
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 17:29
Teej, if you believe that kind of guide would be desirable and hikers want that kind of guide, why doesn't ALDHA offer it?
Maret was the single author/editor of the PG, so it sounded like him. I just write about a small stretch of the entire AT, so my sections sound like me. One big difference between the books is one showed favoritism and offered insight, and one tries to be comprehensive and without bias. Where Maret could say: Stay at Troll's because Rock's is too smelly, the Companion can just give the cold facts on both places.
Do I miss Maret's 'voice'? Yup. Do I think we could re-create it? Nope.
Really all we need is one good source of up to date information about the trail and services. Why not just devote our energies to the ALDHA companion? There's a publication that benefits both the ATC and ALDHA, 2 great trail organizations.
That works well, too. :)
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 17:33
Really all we need is one good source of up to date information about the trail and services. Why not just devote our energies to the ALDHA companion? There's a publication that benefits both the ATC and ALDHA, 2 great trail organizations.
I think that's the best option. Take what we have and make it the best we can. I know from personal experience many providers don't really want to deal with multiple writers offering up different versions in different books.
Volunteers welcome! :D
....Assuming the AT Guidebook is compact, lightweight and contains all the info a hiker needs, in a format that's better than the competition, would it matter if the author had never hiked the trail?
No. But that's a big if. Without considerable long distance trail experience the compiler is unlikely to know what "all the info a hiker needs" might be.
With oir without trail experience such a book is unlikely to prove very profitable. The number of hikers is shrinking annually. The cost of printing increases annually.
max patch
08-17-2007, 17:54
Really all we need is one good source of up to date information about the trail and services. Why not just devote our energies to the ALDHA companion? There's a publication that benefits both the ATC and ALDHA, 2 great trail organizations.
Competition improves everyone.
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 17:57
Assuming the AT Guidebook is compact, lightweight and contains all the info a hiker needs...
Heh. That's called the DataBook! :sun
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 18:13
Obviously, I'd call 911 for a heart problem or really serious injury. However, if I limp out of the woods at 7 PM on Friday night with an ankle the size of a grapefruit or a cut that needs a few stitches I just need to the location of a walk-in clinic or ER. If I make it out by 2 PM, the location of a doc who might be willing to see me would be good.
Several say that the ALDHA Companion has this info. May I ask where it is? I can't find it.
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 18:23
Several say that the ALDHA Companion has this info. May I ask where it is? I can't find it.
The Rangely, Stratton, Caratunk, Monson, and Millinocket, Maine listings all have info on the local hospitals.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 18:57
TJ, five listings is not what is needed. Ideally, a listing of hospitals within 25 miles of where the trail crosses major roads and info on walk-in clinics or doctors in towns commonly used for resupply would be available. How many people have to come off the trail for the treatment of an injury or a disease every year?
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 19:08
TJ, five listings is not what is needed.
Is there only five in the whole book? I was just listing the ones I know by heart. ;)
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 19:19
D (for doctor/medical) is listed in the start-of-state listings for Suches, Helen, Hiawassee, Franklin, Bryson City, Gatlinburg, Erwin, Unicoi, Elk Park/Roan Mt, Hampton, U.S. 321 - and that's just south of Viginia. FD, do you mean you'd like directions from every road/trail crossing?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 19:23
Thanks for that info, TJ. A list of phone numbers for medical care that corresponded with the 'D' listing would be really helpful.
Jim Adams
08-17-2007, 19:26
I am going to write a guide to Spain. I've never set foot there at all. I have read books about it and I will be copying the data from other other books.
Want to buy my guidebook?
I am writing a guide to mountain biking. I don't own a mountain bike and I have not been mountain biking since 1999. I've read some articles on it. I know mountain bikers.
Would you buy the guide?
And so on...
When people write about a subject, I hope they have some experience to back it up.
An author does not have to be an expert..but having first hand knowledge of the subject is helpful. And, I think,other people will feel the same way.
It wll help sell the books (along with a sample chapters).
Just my opinion.
Also, a thought just occured to me: The field editors of the companion are just that FIELD editors. First hand knowledge of their area. I think, in part, that is why the companion works well.
IMO that is why Wingfoot's book and the Philosopher's Guide were so much better!
geek:-?
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 19:27
Thanks for that info, TJ. A list of phone numbers for medical care that corresponded with the 'D' listing would be really helpful.
That would be under the city/town listings. The full listings, (the name of the facility, the address, the phone number, hours, etc.) are right there. Do you have a copy of the Companion, FD?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 19:39
My last copy is from 2003. The dinos haven't done much AT hiking since the accident in 2004. I looked up the online version and fround the references.
::: Dino does best Emily Latilla imitation, "Nevermind" :::
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 19:43
My last copy is from 2003.
Ah ha! Many nice changes since then, including losing the spiral binding!:D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 19:46
::: Dino hangs head, tries to bite self on toes and orders new copy of the ALDHA guide :::
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 19:50
IMO that is why Wingfoot's book and the Philosopher's Guide were so much better!
geek:-?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Wingfoot hadn't personally visited half the service providers, hadn't hiked on hundreds of miles of re-lo, or even walked by many of the shelters that he included in his book. Are you saying his experience as a thru-hiker a decade ago made his phone-call collected data "so much better" than that collected in person by members of the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers' Association?
I am going to write a guide to Spain. I've never set foot there at all. I have read books about it and I will be copying the data from other other books.
Want to buy my guidebook?
I am writing a guide to mountain biking. I don't own a mountain bike and I have not been mountain biking since 1999. I've read some articles on it. I know mountain bikers.
Would you buy the guide?
And so on...
When people write about a subject, I hope they have some experience to back it up.
An author does not have to be an expert..but having first hand knowledge of the subject is helpful. And, I think,other people will feel the same way.
It wll help sell the books (along with a sample chapters).
Just my opinion.
Also, a thought just occured to me: The field editors of the companion are just that FIELD editors. First hand knowledge of their area. I think, in part, that is why the companion works well.
Mags,
As stated earlier, my gut reaction parallels yours.
But, does one need to hike trail to know where the road crossings, trailheads, shelters, distances and water sources are? Much of this information is well documented, public information. Visit trail towns, or phone businesses known to be hiker-friendly to update information on amenities. (I suspect this is what Wingfoot did, particularly in the last 10 years.)
I believe hikers want current and accurate information, in a format that appeals to them, and in a lightweight package. If the author delivers this, the book will sell.
Like you, I agree that the author should not remain anonymous. Doing so will undermine her credibility. If the guidbook delivers the best organization and packaging of information, hikers may welcome the guide, regardless of the number of trail miles on the author's boots.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and let the work speak for itself.
~
With oir without trail experience such a book is unlikely to prove very profitable. The number of hikers is shrinking annually. The cost of printing increases annually.
I have no experience with publishing, but I tend to agree with you. Such an endeavor must be a labor of love. There simply are not enough AT hikers to make this profitable.
Interestingly, the author of the proposed AT Guidebook states:
"The goal is to offer a limited number of copies for the 2008 season; this is contingent upon the interest by the hiking community in general."
To me, this sounds like the author is relying on advance orders to finance the project. If the author continues to remain anonymous, I question how many hikers will commit to buying a book, before they've seen what their money will buy.
It took me 3 minutes of searching to get a pretty good idea who the author is. Anyone with a modicum of internet savvy could do the same. If it is who I think it is, they have pretty good "trail cred"
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Wingfoot hadn't personally visited half the service providers, hadn't hiked on hundreds of miles of re-lo, or even walked by many of the shelters that he included in his book. Are you saying his experience as a thru-hiker a decade ago made his phone-call collected data "so much better" than that collected in person by members of the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers' Association?
Probably another one that hasn't seen the Companion in years. It's online folks, and for free, although it's best to buy the hard copy.
sweatoid
08-17-2007, 21:47
Everyone reading this thread is on the internet.
The internet has all the info in all the guidebooks (mileages, town food and lodging, etc.) for free, but it is not in one convenient form at this moment.
Those who sell and profit from guidebooks copyright their work to protect their own interests. The copyright is more about the way the info is presented rather that its content. Compare the Companion or Handbook or Data Book mileages or look up the grocery stores in Hanover, etc. Pretty much the same stuff - only the Data Book just has mileage mostly and the Companion has more shelter and town stuff and the Handbook was somewhere in between - it is all the same info. All of them start becoming outdated as soon as the info gets sent to the publisher.
We need a free, online AT guidebook that is updated by the AT community for the good of all AT hikers. Then AT hikers could print off what they need when they need it as they go from town to town. Printed guidebooks were neccessities before 1995, but in 2007 they're merely a convenience. Soon they will be nostalgia.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Wingfoot hadn't personally visited half the service providers, hadn't hiked on hundreds of miles of re-lo, or even walked by many of the shelters that he included in his book. Are you saying his experience as a thru-hiker a decade ago made his phone-call collected data "so much better" than that collected in person by members of the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers' Association?
Well, the fact that most long distance hikers, sought out Wingfoot's book, even after his financial woes. makes me think that he had the best guide. After '93 I haven't done enoiugh long distance hikes to know for sure about which was best. But most of the hikers I've encountered seem to think Wingfoot won the contest.
Weary
Jim Adams
08-17-2007, 22:36
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Wingfoot hadn't personally visited half the service providers, hadn't hiked on hundreds of miles of re-lo, or even walked by many of the shelters that he included in his book. Are you saying his experience as a thru-hiker a decade ago made his phone-call collected data "so much better" than that collected in person by members of the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers' Association?
YES I AM!
Wingfoot didn't just rely on phone calls. He used alot of info from current year hikers on most of his updates. That is how he found out about problems or good aspects of a new relo and also how he found out about new services offered along the trail. He gathered alot of info the same way that the info was gathered for the Philosophers Guide but where the PG was more "down home", WF was not satisfied about presenting it in any less than a "Southern Gentleman" would. Yes it lost alittle of the down home flavor but it was always accurate.
geek
It took me 3 minutes of searching to get a pretty good idea who the author is. Anyone with a modicum of internet savvy could do the same. If it is who I think it is, they have pretty good "trail cred"
99.88 percent that I... uhhh... :-? know the hiker. :D
SGT Rock
08-18-2007, 07:24
IMO the best of all worlds is a guide that is updated constantly - even more than any of them are now, and the user can set the format the way they want it. based on how they like to hike - and if it is done correctly printing costs go way for the publiser. The idea is not far fetched at all, this is something I keep bringing up - a database, a real database.
Tables of data that list each point on the trail, these tables have different levels of information based on what the user wants or needs for their hike. You could specify starting point, end point, whether you wanted milage estimates starting from Springer, Katahdin, or whatever your planned start point for that hike. You could have a level of navigation points as detailed as you find in the section guides, or only have shelters, townes, water sources, or whatever you choose. Field editors could go on line and update their section information at any time they need to during the year. The project manager may never have hiked the trail, but could take e-mails and PMs to update data from users if it pans out. A user on a thru-hike could print off a section (say Springer to Hot Springs) and then when they get to the end of that section they could print off the next section at a local library (say Hot Springs to Damascus) and that section information would then be updated with the most recent information to that date. You could choose to leave out the information you dont want like identifying animal footprints or bear bagging, and include data you might want like strip maps to town.
Give some examples of the data in a test format so people can see how it works, then charge for access to the actual database. Since there is no printing, your access could be something like $10 a year.
IMO ALDHA has the best system in place to collect the data, already has a website, and only needs find the right programmer to set up the system. I would certainy be most likely to use this service more than use any other guide avalable.
Pokey2006
08-18-2007, 08:17
It took me 3 minutes of searching to get a pretty good idea who the author is. Anyone with a modicum of internet savvy could do the same. If it is who I think it is, they have pretty good "trail cred"
Why should I have to search for who this author is??? Why doesn't he/she just TELL me?
BEWARE OF ANY AUTHOR WHO IS TOO AFRAID TO UP-FRONT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES!
No legitimate author of any to-be-published book would neglect the "biography" or "about me" part of their website. Buyers beware...
hopefulhiker
08-18-2007, 08:17
Snowman a 2005 thruhiker and a programmer from Wales started to do an online AT guide.. You can look at it at hikerbox.net
Pokey2006
08-18-2007, 08:24
Well, I cared when I first looked at the website, but since the bio information was so glaringly lacking, I quickly stopped caring who this person was. Regardless of who this person is, my point is simply that people shouldn't even consider buying books from anonymous authors, even if quick Internet searches smoke out their true identities...it's just not professional and gives all those legitimate authors out there a bad rap.
Plus, you can get the Companion online for FREE.
generoll
08-18-2007, 08:45
Just a thought on "competing trail guides", if I may be forgiven for going back to the thread for a moment. In my view it's the more the merrier. Whatever your belief system, Darwin did make some good points. Sooner or later the best will emerge and in the process may help to improve all of them. I download the Companion for the section I am hiking (I also joined ALDHA) and carry those sheets with me. Having a bookley in a looseleaf format or binder would also have merit. You could replace whole sections as they were updated.
The idea of printing the next section as you hike the trail sounds good, but since I've not hiked past Hot Springs (yet), I'm not sure how do-able that is.
I'll probably buy the Companion in it's entirety this Fall to help plan my Spring section hike. I find it easier to plan a hike with the book and map spread out over the kitchen table rather then hunched over a computer. Plus I get to hear my wife muttering under her breath when she walks by and sees all my stuff spread out on the table.
SGT Rock
08-18-2007, 08:57
I like the concept of hikerbox. I met Snowman on the trail in 2005 and I understand where he is coming from with his project. The only problem is the project doesn't seem to have a lot of movement to get up and going to the point it needs to be for a complete guide.
Anyway, on the other subject about the guide and writer...
If the information in the guide is accurate and up to date are the qualifications. A 10 time thru-hiker could be a lousy writer and put together a lousy book. A person who is bound to a wheel chair and has nothing better to do than meticulously check facts and entries may not have ever hiked the trail, but could make the most accurate book when handed data from people that are out there and by doing some telephone fact checking. IMO a guide is about the data and the accuracy of that data and how that data is formatted, not about a specific cult of personality.
I bet 95% of what is in this year's Companion and Handbook is accurate. The other 5% can be attributed to insufficient fact-checking, or more likely, info that changed after the respective guidebooks went to press.
Still, 95% is pretty good, tho when you're out there and your day is messed up because you encountered part of the 5% you tend to remember it.
An online guide, as comprehensive as these two books, can be updated on the fly whenever changes occur. That might bring the incorrect data down to 1% or so.
But many prefer a nicely organized book to carry along, on smaller sized pages than the 8.5x11 you typically print out from the web.
There is a solution. Print-on-demand technology allows books to be printed affordably in very small quantities. The system is, in fact, designed to print books only to fulfill orders just received. In this example, a book can be updated right up to the moment of its printing-on-demand.
Wingfoot tried this for at least one year--possibly longer, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure why he went back to doing the total press run upfront and abandoning print-on-demand. Does anyone know for sure? POD could work beautifully for an AT Guidebook by permitting constant updates to the print edition; also any and all changes to a particular year's edition occurring after its first copies were printed-on-demand could be posted on the internet so every purchaser has access to updates occurring after his or her copy of the book came off the press (as WF does, or did, for his Handbook).
I like both the Handbook and the Companion, and find enough in each that is not in the other that I buy both each year. If something new comes along, I'll certainly give that a chance, too.
I like and buy the DataBook too, but it doesn't supply as much info as I'd like to have. It is a good bare-bones guide to just the major points on the AT.
For sentimental reasons, I can see the attraction some have for the old Philosopher's Guide. It was written in a more personalized voice that is easy to empathize with. Perhaps anyone attempting to put out a guide that would compete with the Companion might emulate this style so as to distinguish their efforts in the marketplace.
Pedaling Fool
08-18-2007, 10:41
I have an old AT Data Book from the 1980s, I believe, there is no date I can find. It has a bland cover - gray with, I guess a silhouette, of a tree. The information is scarce, even in comparison to today's Data Book and the format is awful. The only information it shows is: S - Shelters, R - Roads, L - Lodging, M - Meals, & G - Grocieries.
It does not show water, and when you get to a road it lists the town and the associated services (L,M,G), but not the direction or distance.
I have an old AT Data Book from the 1980s, I believe, there is no date I can find. It has a bland cover - gray with, I guess a silhouette, of a tree. The information is scarce, even in comparison to today's Data Book and the format is awful. The only information it shows is: S - Shelters, R - Roads, L - Lodging, M - Meals, & G - Grocieries.
It does not show water, and when you get to a road it lists the town and the associated services (L,M,G), but not the direction or distance.
Though it's still bare-bones, the DataBook has improved a lot since then.
Jim Adams
08-18-2007, 10:47
JG,
if you ever decide to get rid of that databook, please let me know. I would certainly purchase it from you. I have databook since my first hike in 1990.
geek
Jim Adams
08-18-2007, 10:52
Sorry, that should have read EVERY data book.
I usually try to hike somewhere in Georgia for a week in March and I buy a new databook every year. I can then have all of the new hikers that I meet just write their name and addresses in the blank areas. This lets e know exactly what year I met those hikers.
geek
Pedaling Fool
08-18-2007, 10:53
I agree.
There's a lot of discussion on the necessity of maps now-a-days. Whatever one's opinion today on that topic, I don't think many would want to do the AT without a map in those days with this as your only resouce.
Well personally I think a digital database that is customizable is the way to go,
I've been sayin' that for months too. Couldn't agree more.
We need a free, online AT guidebook that is updated by the AT community for the good of all AT hikers. Then AT hikers could print off what they need when they need it as they go from town to town. Printed guidebooks were neccessities before 1995, but in 2007 they're merely a convenience. Soon they will be nostalgia.
Agree again.
generoll
08-18-2007, 14:44
Why free? Who's going to compile the data and keep it properly organized and in a readable format. Who's going to accept responsibility for fact checking and updating? I get free roadmaps from AAA, but I also pay about $80 a year to belong. "No pay, no play". Seems like I heard that phrase somewhere back in my distant and disreputable past.
Why free? Who's going to compile the data and keep it properly organized and in a readable format. Who's going to accept responsibility for fact checking and updating? I get free roadmaps from AAA, but I also pay about $80 a year to belong. "No pay, no play". Seems like I heard that phrase somewhere back in my distant and disreputable past.
I would pay. But, free would be nice to.
Pedaling Fool
08-18-2007, 17:05
Why free? ... I get free roadmaps from AAA, but I also pay about $80 a year to belong...
I think that's the basic idea Sgt Rock was expressing in his post.
Pedaling Fool
08-18-2007, 17:08
I think that's the basic idea Sgt Rock was expressing in his post. (In Post #49)
It was rather cool to hike without any.
Well, not exactly. I had info like: "L, M 2.3 miles West".
My point? There is something to be said for surprise and discovery. As for the important stuff in towns, somehow that becomes known no matter what.
Rick B
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-18-2007, 17:19
If an on-line database were developed and a hardcopy could be ordered and then printed-on-demand it would seem to be the best of both worlds. I would gladly pay a reasonable annual fee to access an up-to-date database -- especially if it also included more information in the online version for section hikers and spouses / other support persons regarding lodging, location of the nearest outfitter and nearest large department store.
As mentioned, print on demand can work very nicely for small run books (I used POD when I first printed my own book, till I made enough to finace big print jobs). It allows a writer to make changes on the fly (since the files are digital), and there is no stock or high over head to bring it out.
Is there room in a market? Most likely yes. Out here in the PNW we have tons of competing lines of guide books from small to big players. They all offer something different, different point of views, etc.
Btw, books auto copywrite when you bring it out. That is one of the few nice things our gov't provides for us!
Having said that, the website does need some more fleshing :)
sweatoid
08-18-2007, 22:35
Why free? Who's going to compile the data and keep it properly organized and in a readable format. Who's going to accept responsibility for fact checking and updating? I get free roadmaps from AAA, but I also pay about $80 a year to belong. "No pay, no play". Seems like I heard that phrase somewhere back in my distant and disreputable past.
Free would encourage a collaborative effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative
I agree that free and collaboration don't work well when it involves something you can hold in your hand like an AAA map or a Guidebook. However, for an AT internet database, I think it'd be best to share the fact checking and updating. What ever happened to the belief that the best things in life are free? :) For example, this website. How much do you pay to use Mapquest or similar websites for driving directions? Or a Google or Yahoo search? Think about linux - it's free and works well enough to do what I'm doing right now.
How much money in ink does it cost to print off a copy of a guide book. The ink cartridges for my Epson printer cost about $25 or more for a very small cartridge.
If you can buy a nice bounded guide book for the cost of a ink cartridge it may be a wash.
Panzer
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 09:01
I have my modified AT Companion down to about 40 pages, that is 20 sheets front to back. My cartridge on my printer says it does something like 500 pages, so as a function of cartridge cost it is less than about 1/15th the cost of my cartridge.
If I ever hiked the A.T. from one terminus to the other again, I'd carry ATC's A.T. Data Book and the maps from it's guide books. I'd pencil in all sorts of handwritten notes from the guide books before I depart and add more notes as I hike gathering information from others and to share with others as I go.
I wonder where people think thru-hikers will print these on-demand guides for free while hiking and where the pages will end up once they are no longer needed?
I emailed someone who lost her Thru Hiker's Guidebook the link to ALHDA's Online Companion this year, so she could refer to it at her next town stop since I expected her replacement had not yet arrived.
I'm not seeing how all these proposals are much different from what we have already or how they are in any way significantly superior to what ALDHA already offers.
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 11:18
Well in my case the difference is lay out. Honestly: I hate the layout of the companion. I would like to cut out the superfluous data about who maintains what. How to identify plants and animals, and all the other "stuff". Then I would like to see the shelter and town data in line as you see it, not have one section where you look at the mileage and mile points then have to flip to another page to see what that town has - it is not efficient for cutting out and carrying just what you want to see for that section. Like I said before, I took everything in the Companion, re-engineered it by changing the order of information, cut out what I didn't want and added stuff from WhiteBlaze I did want and make my own thru-hike file (including the BMT) I can print out on only 20 sheets of 8.5x11. It was just a PITA and doesn't have to be that way. I could set up exactly what I want from the Companion much easier if they simply put the same data the come up with every year into a database and then set the print styles - in fact that sort of system would probably even make it easier for the ALDHA editors to do thier job every year.
As to where to print - libraries, print your own custom pages before you leave and carry them, someone at home that mails it with your next mail drop, some hostels, and maybe other places. The point is getting the format and information custom to you and not have 4 competing guides for various tweaks of format - or get stuck with one or two fixed formats you hate. In todays technology that is like saying "who needs the internet when you can subscribe to a newspaper?".
As to what hapens to the pages? Who knows, send them home for keepsakes, make a fire starter with them, eat them, wipe your butt with them, throw them away - who cares?
SGT Rock, I see more clearly now what you are suggesting is a customizable format where one could include as much or as little information as one desires.
I think the idea of having a support person send pages to a thru-hiker would be a fine idea. What concerned me was the cost of print cartridges and paper that might well end up being borne by a hostel and the potential for abuse as well as trash that would be created at the point where it would be printed as well as on the A.T.
TJ aka Teej
08-19-2007, 11:50
Wingfoot didn't just rely on phone calls. He used alot of info from current year hikers on most of his updates. That is how he found out about problems or good aspects of a new relo and also how he found out about new services offered along the trail. He gathered alot of info the same way that the info was gathered for the Philosophers Guide
Sounds pretty much like the way we write the Companion, geek :D
Except we never put a blurb on the back cover saying the contributers were "the acknowledged expert" :rolleyes:
Footslogger
08-19-2007, 11:51
BA Turtle and I just got back from hiking the Rangelely to Monson section. We carried BOTH the 2006 Wingfoot Hanbook pages AND the ALDHA Companion pages.
What did we find most useful ?? ...the Wingfoot Handbook pages.
Were they totally accurate - - heck no.
Did they identify the major milestones and landmarks along the way - - heck yes.
Why did we find the Wingfoot Handbook pages more useful ?? ...because (in our opinion) they do a better job of combining mileage with landmarks. To be totally honest, we don't really care when a shelter was built or how many it sleeps. We need to know where the water was and what the rough mileage is from point to point ...and I emphasize ROUGH MILEAGE. Problem with ALL of the guidbooks, DATA BOOK included, is that the mileage (for the most part) just ain't accurate. Truth be told though is that a hiker doesn't really need to know the EXACT mileage from point to point. Heck, your pace varies given ups/downs and with the ongoing re-routes even the updates are just estimates.
Bottom line for us is that content and format are what make a guidebook useful as a hiking tool. We like something that helps us plan/manage a hike on a day to day basis AND something that is small that can be folded easily and stuck in a ziplock. If we feel we need history or contact info we can/prefer to extract or download that in advance and keep it with us but NOT have to handle it or have it in our face as we check our progress time to time during the day.
We think that the passing of Wingfoot's Handbook into the annals of AT history is an excellent opportunity for someone or some organization to take the existing DataBook and enhance/embelish it. We would like to see the DataBook (or something very similary) evolve into an on-line resource that could, for a fee, be downloaded/printed on a section by section basis.
Anyhew ...that's our thoughts on the matter.
'Slogger
TJ aka Teej
08-19-2007, 11:59
How much money in ink does it cost to print off a copy of a guide book.
Aren't there ways to d/l onto a half-the-weight-of-a-book hand held device, costing nothing? And if that device connects to the Internet, you can see all the current info we post to the ATC's Companion Update webpage. I'm no techie myself, but I can see where that's how most guides will be carried in the future.
Talking with Earl Shaffer once, I dropped into conversation (yes, trying to impress..) that I was writing the Caratunk to Katahdin bit for the Companion. His response: "Trail guides ain't worth spit. All they can ever be is a report on what the trail was like a year ago." I miss Earl.
Anyway... I think the best we can do is to somehow wiki-up the online Companion.
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 12:06
Yes, having a digital copy on a PDA, cell phone, or some other sort of digital media system could be an option eventually. Sort of like the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.
totally Boagus
08-19-2007, 12:06
for short hikes (1 week or less) I have taken digital photos of both maps and guide book. I keep them on a seperate card from the photos I'm taking and when I need to check the map or book I simply change card, and zoom in. No neeed for maps or book. All is good as long as the batteries hold up!
Anyway... I think the best we can do is to somehow wiki-up the online Companion.
I worry about the quality of information that would end up being introduced. Without field editors who are experienced hikers, there would not be the interaction between service providers and editors that now exists.
These field editors act as ALDHA's ambassadors in a way ensuring that the kind of information service providers want to be included and the information hikers need is what hikers see in the finished product.
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 12:17
Well that is why I think the system would work - editors that are "authorized" field editors would have permissions to update the guide, unauthorized editors information would go to a hed editor that could validate the information before allowing edits. Validating could be simple fact checking through telephone or having the local field editor checking into the information.
Trivia: It's interesting how maps and tourist guides, etc., protect their copyrights. They insert in a harmless spot a dummy listing (a village, road, etc. on the map that doesn't exist, a listing that is made up). Then, if this created listing shows up in another company's map or guidebook, etc., bingo, lawsuit, easy to prove.
Hikerbox.net has the right idea as far as online AT guides go. Sure, it could use fleshing out and a lot more support. The problem is, instead of contributing to the effort, everyone thinks they can do it better. I've seen no evidence that WhiteBlazers could do a better job or even understand what a real database is.
I suggest WB admins start a conversation with hikerbox about helping with his database updates. Aren't we always going on about how much AT expertise we have on WB?
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 14:06
Actually I did in the past. He and his wife posted here when the site started up. I've posted some things here about helping him out. I can say that besides my own little backyard area around the Smokies, I don't have a lot to contribute.
But yes, I understand, fully, how hard a concept this is to get across sometimes. The potential is great, but just like anything else that is a collaboration: it has to be fed to work right.
I've seen no evidence that WhiteBlazers could do a better job or even understand what a real database is.
Thank you for your kind remarks.:rolleyes:
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 14:15
Here is the URL: http://www.davedh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
I highly reccomend anyone with uptadted info to log in and help out. Although it still isn't a perfect product, it takes participation to make it something that is close.
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 18:45
Lets say, for the sake of argument, we decided to try this sort of project on WhiteBlaze. A project where we took data from the Shelter forums, town information forums, and other sources and presented it in a database - then provided a feedback forum for users to submit updates....
To get this rolling correctly and update it regularly we would need people that are out there and are willing to commit to contributions in areas along the trails.
Does this sound like a project people are willing to get behind?
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 18:57
"All the info a hiker needs..."
A guidebook is just that: A guide. As the saying goes, "The map is not the territory," and a guidebook is no different. There can be - and are - dozens of guidebooks, with different formats, for the AT, just as there are for, say, Brunei. Each has a different POV, and different information. So there is always room for one more guidebook for some, and even one is too many for others.
That's why I enjoyed the Companion, the Handbook and the Data Book, and carried pages of each with me. Each served different purposes, and each was appreciated for what they did, and didn't do. Then there were all the other "guides".............
The Weasel
Lets say, for the sake of argument, we decided to try this sort of project on WhiteBlaze. A project where we took data from the Shelter forums, town information forums, and other sources and presented it in a database - then provided a feedback forum for users to submit updates....
To get this rolling correctly and update it regularly we would need people that are out there and are willing to commit to contributions in areas along the trails.
Does this sound like a project people are willing to get behind?
Rock, I can tell this is something you really want to do, and you will eventually make it happen. You are a do-er, not a talker. This would be a great project for Whiteblaze, and a wonderful contribution to the hiking community.
Let me be the first to say I am willing to support this endeavor. I could easily provide updates on amenities in Gorham, and trail conditions in the Northern Whites.
To me, gathering updates will be the easy part of this job. Getting someone to format the data into a useful and customizable way, is the challenge. Do we need a database expert? A software developer? Are there WB members that know about these topics to advise us what the best software solution would comprise?
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 19:43
Rock, I can tell this is something you really want to do, and you will eventually make it happen. You are a do-er, not a talker. This would be a great project for Whiteblaze, and a wonderful contribution to the hiking community.
Let me be the first to say I am willing to support this endeavor. I could easily provide updates on amenities in Gorham, and trail conditions in the Northern Whites.
To me, gathering updates will be the easy part of this job. Getting someone to format the data into a useful and customizable way, is the challenge. Do we need a database expert? A software developer? Are there WB members that know about these topics to advise us what the best software solution would comprise?
Well I am seriously contemplating it. I plan to thru-hike next year and plan to check data and make notes as I go. It is in my personality to do so anyway. I've already made my own format that I like from the AT companion, the thru-hikers guide, and resources from WhiteBlaze, and I have even made one for the BMT which is probably the only thru-hiker style guide for that trail. So it wouldn't be imposible to make one...
The issue in my opinion is updating it. I could just start a system where I get info from this site, check the ALDAHA companion for their changes, and make phone calls every year and turn into a trail guide editing machine for the rest of my life...
Or I could find out if folks are interested in being a part of a project like this. My opinon is if we get this going that there ought to be a cut to help keep the site going and possibly expand the services, and a cut ought to go to the ATC which keeps the AT going - because without the ATC there isn't an AT. I don't think I could do it myself, and just re-stating info from other guides whouldn't be honest IMO.
I would really rather ALDHA did it though.
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 20:02
No. But that's a big if. Without considerable long distance trail experience the compiler is unlikely to know what "all the info a hiker needs" might be.
With oir without trail experience such a book is unlikely to prove very profitable. The number of hikers is shrinking annually. The cost of printing increases annually.
Competition keeps sharpness. Two guides means two that fight to be good. One means one that thinks it's good.
The Weasel
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 20:06
Well I am seriously contemplating it. I plan to thru-hike next year and plan to check data and make notes as I go. It is in my personality to do so anyway. I've already made my own format that I like from the AT companion, the thru-hikers guide, and resources from WhiteBlaze, and I have even made one for the BMT which is probably the only thru-hiker style guide for that trail. So it wouldn't be imposible to make one...
The issue in my opinion is updating it. I could just start a system where I get info from this site, check the ALDAHA companion for their changes, and make phone calls every year and turn into a trail guide editing machine for the rest of my life...
Or I could find out if folks are interested in being a part of a project like this. My opinon is if we get this going that there ought to be a cut to help keep the site going and possibly expand the services, and a cut ought to go to the ATC which keeps the AT going - because without the ATC there isn't an AT. I don't think I could do it myself, and just re-stating info from other guides whouldn't be honest IMO.
I would really rather ALDHA did it though.
Rock, agree with all you propose, but I apologize if this drift the thread: But without the ATC, there is still an AT. The other way around, true. But the AT would survive very well without the ATC, but it would do so in a different way. There are some of us who aren't totally sold on a private organization that is not directly accountable to the public, being responsible for what is, in essence, a national park. I'm glad the ATC hasn't done much wrong, but it WAS one of Dan's points that the ATC wasn't always the most vigorous of stewards.
But if you decide to lead this, I'll help however I can. (Legal issues? There will be many, including how you evaluate places. Honest. Offer stands.)
The Weasel
Skidsteer
08-19-2007, 20:06
Lets say, for the sake of argument, we decided to try this sort of project on WhiteBlaze. A project where we took data from the Shelter forums, town information forums, and other sources and presented it in a database - then provided a feedback forum for users to submit updates....
To get this rolling correctly and update it regularly we would need people that are out there and are willing to commit to contributions in areas along the trails.
Does this sound like a project people are willing to get behind?
I would be able to contribute for Georgia and much of NC.
I generally take notes anyway so it wouldn't be much extra effort.
~
I would really rather ALDHA did it though.
OK, so let's contact ALDHA to see if they'll partner with us. Who is the editor this year?
SGT Rock
08-19-2007, 20:15
Well I would plan a database that offers different levels of comment for each provider:
1. Level one - pick what you want: i.e. outfitters, laundy, and hostels. But you could omit things like resturaunts and hotels which you are lible to find anyway at your under your own poer - so just a listing at all is what you get to pick at level 1.
2. This level would give you data like where they are in town, hours of service, etc. Level 2 could include the strip map like you find in the Companion - or this could be a seperate check box to include strip maps at level one if they are on file.
3. This level would give you opinons.
So if you decided to go to Erwin, well the basic "guide" would allow you to opt to include towns as milage points, and then with that you could decide you only care about hostels and outfitters at level 2. Past that you could pick paved road crossings, omit FS roads and dirt trails, but include shelters and water sources, but leave out all the crap about when a shelter was built and how many it sleeps. Then you could add in things like pipelines and power lines in case you want them, elevation markers, peaks, bridges, trail crossings, etc. You could pick what kind of stuff you want to see and what you don't.
The Weasel
08-20-2007, 00:59
99.88 percent that I... uhhh... :-? know the hiker. :D
I am not sure I understand the reticence here in naming who ever this person is. I've never seen such bashfulness in WB before. Is there some secret shame that would befall this person if she or he were named? Or is everyone just being coy to make everyone else do the same internet searching?
The Weasel
The Weasel
08-20-2007, 01:04
One aspect of practicality that has been touched on: This is not a project that can be profiltable, if multiple versions are prepared. While I note above that two (or more) versions can make each other better, I also note that there is an excellent chance that competing with the Companion can result in the Companion (and the new book as well) both failing as costing their publishers (i.e. the people putting them together, ALDHA and whomever) too much. And then someone comes alone and says, "we need it on line for free." That's dumb.
Rock's idea of a multiply-layered guide may be feasible, but done in conjunction with ALDHA, so that each is complementary with the other, much as the Data Book and Companion can be used together or separately. This can achieve some economies of scale.
Keep in mind that the likely "sale" of any hard copy is going to be no more than about 2,000, at best. Whatever is done, I hope that it doesn't kill off the Companion, and ALDHA/ATC's opinions might well be solicited.
The Weasel
I am not sure I understand the reticence here in naming who ever this person is. I've never seen such bashfulness in WB before. Is there some secret shame that would befall this person if she or he were named? Or is everyone just being coy to make everyone else do the same internet searching?
The Weasel
It was my .12 % uncertainty that stopped me.
I do think that the author's desire to remain anonymouse is a little suspect. :-?
Well I would plan a database that offers different levels of comment for each provider:
1. Level one - pick what you want: i.e. outfitters, laundy, and hostels. But you could omit things like resturaunts and hotels which you are lible to find anyway at your under your own poer - so just a listing at all is what you get to pick at level 1.
2. This level would give you data like where they are in town, hours of service, etc. Level 2 could include the strip map like you find in the Companion - or this could be a seperate check box to include strip maps at level one if they are on file.
3. This level would give you opinons.
So if you decided to go to Erwin, well the basic "guide" would allow you to opt to include towns as milage points, and then with that you could decide you only care about hostels and outfitters at level 2. Past that you could pick paved road crossings, omit FS roads and dirt trails, but include shelters and water sources, but leave out all the crap about when a shelter was built and how many it sleeps. Then you could add in things like pipelines and power lines in case you want them, elevation markers, peaks, bridges, trail crossings, etc. You could pick what kind of stuff you want to see and what you don't.
Sarge, I think I understand what you are proposing. An application where users of different levels will have access to different levels of data, or maybe be able to customize what data they want to see. If that's even close, then you'll first need to find answers to the questions Roland asked in post #90 about database and software expertise. I've done a fair bit of database and web application work, but my expertise, such as it is, is limited to Microsoft technologies. What you need is people who can design MySQL databases and people who are good with PHP and HTML. My comment earlier about seeing no evidence that WB could do this was not meant to be insulting, but meant that I haven't yet seen anyone here claim the above abilities. If you just wanted to produce a "book", one size fits all, then you don't need that much expertise. However the customization part is where the fun begins.
Tennessee Viking
08-20-2007, 02:31
The ATC Guidebook for Tennessee/North Carolina by C. Chew has loads of historical facts, geology, side trails, nearby towns
The Weasel
08-20-2007, 03:09
It was my .12 % uncertainty that stopped me.
I do think that the author's desire to remain anonymouse is a little suspect. :-?
I recall the poor sod who was going to hold seminars or whatever some months ago...I disremember his name at the moment. He was rapidly unmasked and held up to public adulation (rare) and scorn (big time). If this is someone beloved or hated (or both), that's never held back people here before.
Spill, or not, as you and others think fit. As for me, until the cred of the writer is established, by name or otherwise, it's just another bunch of vapor.
The Weasel
Personal attack & Off topic - removed
The Weasel
08-20-2007, 06:24
Off topic - removed
TJ aka Teej
08-20-2007, 07:36
I could just start a system where I get info from this site, check the ALDAHA companion for their changes, and make phone calls every year and turn into a trail guide editing machine for the rest of my life...
Heaven forbid! :D
I'll gladly help with the Kennebec to Baxter Peak bit, and hold out hope that we eventually collaberate with ATC/ALDHA, Rock.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-20-2007, 07:46
I really don't care who does it as long as a guide with a bit more flexibility comes to pass.
I was able to get my hands on a 2007 companion and agree with Rock - there is a lot of stuff in there that is dead weight to long-distance hikers. Perhaps ALDHA should consider making the Companion a two volume set - one being 'Companion Lite' that excludes the history lessons, maintainer info, etc. and just gives hikers the sort of info needed for hiking the trail and a second volume that has the other info. This would allow hikers to only carry what they really need and would still give the extra info for those who need and want it.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-20-2007, 07:53
...... you'll first need to find answers to the questions Roland asked in post #90 about database and software expertise. I've done a fair bit of database and web application work, but my expertise, such as it is, is limited to Microsoft technologies. What you need is people who can design MySQL databases and people who are good with PHP and HTML. My comment earlier about seeing no evidence that WB could do this was not meant to be insulting, but meant that I haven't yet seen anyone here claim the above abilities.Cheif, there are people among us with these sort of skills who seem to be indicating an interest in doing this.
TJ aka Teej
08-20-2007, 07:58
Perhaps ALDHA should consider making the Companion a two volume set - one being 'Companion Lite' that excludes the history lessons, maintainer info, etc. and just gives hikers the sort of info needed for hiking the trail and a second volume that has the other info.
Well, actually the ATC does offer two volumes - The Data Book abd the Companion.
Dan Chazin compiles the Data Book, and ALDHA puts together the Companion, for the ATC.
LD hikers often use the Companion and Handbook information for planning, and don't carry the whole book on the Trail. On the Trail I just take torn out pages from the Data Book.
Hey gues, looks like someone was already working a new trail guide anyway:
www.atguidebook.com (http://www.atguidebook.com)
Probably another hiker fed up with errors in the guidebooks.
I reserved a copy...............
Footslogger
08-20-2007, 08:37
Here's what I think will ultimately happen in terms of the AT Trail Guide/Handbook situation ...
The DataBook will survive and become the most commonly carried material by AT thru hikers in so far as mileage/waypoints are concerned.
The ALDHA Companion (already on-line) will become the major complement. You can already download and customize it's contents to include only what you want or believe you need.
Nice thing about the now defunct Thru Hikers Handbook (ala Wingfoot) is that a lot of the "back" material (city maps, Post Office addresses, phone numbers etc.) will not change dramatically in the near term and can still be accessed from older editions and used by hikers.
'Slogger
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 09:30
I have the same problem for now: I could turn this out in Microsoft Access with some playing around and tweaking of the information in pretty short order. But my background (so far) in mySQL and php is not up to speed for this at this time. That is one reason I would love to work with Snowman since he is a programmer by trade and has already done the Hikerbox project. IMO if he added about three of four more colums of data to his tables and then set up the HTML pages to where they were in a lay out that were printer friendly, then that project would be there except for the data part.
Before Iceman started his project back in 2005, I had already put together a basic plan and started writing a test data base to make what I was looking for so that it could be done in a way that made it easy to make changes in one place to the entire database when it came to inserting new mileage for relocations and adding point or removing points along the trail itself. I deleted that project (unfortunatly) but I think I could revive it with some work. The next thing for me to do is spend some time learning how to turn that data into a my SQL database - probably not that hard. I think the trickiest part would be learning php to the level I need for this project to keep going.
It took me 3 minutes of searching to get a pretty good idea who the author is. Anyone with a modicum of internet savvy could do the same. If it is who I think it is, they have pretty good "trail cred"
Oh. it is indeed easy. But I still don't think a person should have to play Sherlock Cyberholmes to find this info. :)
But, does one need to hike trail to know where the road crossings, trailheads, shelters, distances and water sources are? Much of this information is well documented, public information.
As I said though, and Weary said better than I, without some first hand experience, it is difficult to really know what the information should be and HOW it should be presented.
I'm trying to keep an open mind and let the work speak for itself.
I am keeping an open mind..but alsb goig to be wary. I am sure everything is on the up and up, but without knowing WHO and without sample chapters so a person knows WHAT, some skepticism is warranted.
The Weasel
08-20-2007, 11:09
Offer of legal help, including clearances and more, stands, Rock. As does offer of how to make sure you don't incur some really horrendous liability if someone makes a mistake and you're the publisher. Or if someone just gets irritated about what you say. Keep in mind that Walk in the Woods was a guide, of sorts, and Jensine probably still would like to slay Author Whose Name May Not Be Uttered in some horrible fashion.
Let me know.
The Weasel
Alligator
08-20-2007, 11:21
Rotflmao;).
Not at you The Weasel.
Lone Wolf
08-20-2007, 11:23
Jensine probably still would like to slay Author Whose Name May Not Be Uttered in some horrible fashion.
only because the truth hurts
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 11:28
LOL, good point. As for now I am still in the "rebuild" phase. I think that the solution as I look at it is now this:
Level 1 entry - You just get a name of where you are at on the trail i.e. Woody Gap
Level 2 entry - You get a databook level description i.e. Suches GA PO 30572 R G w.
Level 3 Entry - Companion level basic data i.e. Suches—At the gap are picnic tables and a privy. A spring is on a poorly marked side trail west of the A.T. on the northern side of the gap.
Level 4 Entry tells you more information than that if you need it such as what towns are in either direction...
If you decide to select Hostel information as an option, then the hostel information listed for that point would get added to the guide section - and only the basic facts about it i.e. A.T. Hiker Hostel (770) 312-7342, <www.hikerhostel.com>, <
[email protected]>. Bunk & B $15, private & B $34D
If you wanted to add shuttle data, internet access, or fuel re-supply for alcohol to your list, then it would also add that information from that location. Other than that, I think ratings should be left out...
BUT if I work this right there will be a block to input comments for this entry for each user - so if the user FutureHiker was reading WhiteBlaze and found some information he found usefull about this place in Baltimore Jack's Resupply FAQ, then he could add it to his guide print out. That way comments on quality or whatever are not the responsibility of the guide book people - but can be included in the guide you make for yourself.
Jim Adams
08-20-2007, 11:38
Well I am seriously contemplating it. I plan to thru-hike next year and plan to check data and make notes as I go. :-?
Rock,
I've never met you but I do have great respect for you on several levels, defending our freedom, helping maintain this site and now wanting to do this guide book. Please take a little advice from me. I saw how much the info gathering along the way took away from Wingfoot's thru hike. I believe that this is your first A.T. thru coming up. If it is...don't ruin your hike with this info gathering. The A.T. to too special for that to happen.:(
Just my .02!
geek
Alligator
08-20-2007, 11:44
Rock,
When the tables are laid out in the database, you could have a checkoff section (or pulldown) where the user selects the level of detail wanted. The checkoffs could correspond to the exact query the user wants. For instance, you might have a table of hostels with different fields from which the user can select. Phone number, cost whatever. Depending on available information, many of the checkoffs could be be preset, and the user could adjust. Or higher, the user might select town services, then perhaps Restaurants and Laundry Mats, perhaps skipping Hostels. (I'm not quite getting the levels you mentioned.)
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 12:20
Well there would be levels of information for a town. So say you hike into Damascus (since we all know that town):
Level 1 would just say Damascus, VA since that is the point you are at on the trail
Level 2 would tell you Damascus, VA PO 24236 PO, G, L, M - if you choose this level you figure that you can find it if you need it.
Level 3 would tell you some interesting information about the area (and this is copy paste from the Companion for now):
Called “the friendliest town on the Trail” and the home of Trail Days (to be held May 19–21 in 2006). First held in ’87 as a commemorative event for the 50th anniversary of the A.T., the festival’s activities and crowds have grown each year since. Activities include a hiker reunion and talent show, hiking-related exhibits, arts-and-crafts exhibits, a trout rodeo, street dances, live music, and the popular hiker parade through downtown. If you are unable to walk into Damascus for the weekend, rides are usually easy to find from all points along the Trail. Be aware that state open-container laws that restrict drinking in public places are enforced. Hiker camping during Trail Days is at the edge of town on Shady Lane. Camping is prohibited everywhere else, except on the grounds of The Place (see below). During your stay, keep in mind that most of the campsites are in residential areas. Please keep quiet in the late evening and early morning, and, upon departure, leave your campsite clean. Leave No Trace camping principles apply in town as well as on the Trail. You’ll find all major services, except for a veterinarian, in Damascus.
Then you could also select to include the strip map of town in your description of the town. I only plan to have one image made for each one - so if you selected level 2 and map, this would probably get you through most towns.
Now after that you could select your services you want more information for along the trail which would show up in these discription blocks. So say you want to know about hostels, alcohol fuel, laundry, grocery, and outfitters, you could select those from your "defaults" and get this stuff added (again, this is coppied from the comanion for now):
Hostels: The Place, provided by the Damascus First United Methodist Church, opens in late Mar and closes when the pipes are in danger of freezing. Stays and parking are limited to two days; a large house, with bunk space, showers, a back porch, and picnic tables outside. Fourdollar-per-night donation is requested, but larger donations are appreciated, in addition to cleaning the restroom, taking out trash, washing dishes, etc.; absolutely no drinking is permitted on the property of the First United Methodist Church, its parking lot, and The Place. Dave’s Place Hostel, run by Mt. Rogers Outfitters, 5 rooms with two bunks each, $10/room/night, shower only without stay $2, no dogs on premises and daily parking for $2.
Outfitters: Mt. Rogers Outfitters (MRO), (276) 475-5416, owned and operated by 1990 thru-hiker and Damascus native Dave Patrick and son Jeff, backpacking gear and supplies, stove fuel, shuttles, accepts mail drops sent to 110 Laurel Ave. (P.O. Box 546), Damascus, VA 24236, open M–Sa 9–6, Su 12–6; Adventure Damascus Outdoor Company, (276) 475-6262 or (888) 595-2453, <
[email protected]>, 128 W. Laurel Ave. (P.O. Box 1113), Damascus, VA 24236; Sundog Outfitter, (276) 475-6252 or (866) 515-3441, 331 Douglas St., Damascus, VA 24236 (mail drops sent via USPS to P.O. Box 1113, Damascus, VA 24236; UPS shipments sent to 331 Douglas Dr.).
Groceries: Food City (long-term resupply).
Fuel: alcohol available at hardware store.
Laundry: Coin Laundry available.
So now you have left out things you don't want like Bed and Breakfast (because you decide they are not for you) Resturaunts (you will find them anyway) Medical Services (if you need it when you get to town, you will get it) Parking (ain't got a car) Shuttles (decided you didn't want that extra stuff) and side trails in the area (really are not interested in blue-blazing the Virgina Creeper).
Those descriptions may be more than needed - I may come up with a selection for these services that have different levels within that catagory as well - so a basic facts, and expanded facts.
I really don't care who does it as long as a guide with a bit more flexibility comes to pass.
I was able to get my hands on a 2007 companion and agree with Rock - there is a lot of stuff in there that is dead weight to long-distance hikers. Perhaps ALDHA should consider making the Companion a two volume set - one being 'Companion Lite' that excludes the history lessons, maintainer info, etc. and just gives hikers the sort of info needed for hiking the trail and a second volume that has the other info. This would allow hikers to only carry what they really need and would still give the extra info for those who need and want it.
First it had too little info, now it has too much. :rolleyes: It's easy enough to tear out unwanted pages. Personally, I like to keep my AT guidebooks whole (1st WF's, now the Companion). They don't weigh all that much... :D YMMV.
Pedaling Fool
08-20-2007, 12:34
...Then you could also select to include the strip map of town in your description of the town. I only plan to have one image made for each one - so if you selected level 2 and map, this would probably get you through most towns...
Just an observation, FWIW. I always thought that the most inaccurate portion of the Thru-hiker's Handbook was the town map details. Never really compared the Companion in this respect.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-20-2007, 12:34
First it had too little info, now it has too much. :rolleyes: It's easy enough to tear out unwanted pages. Personally, I like to keep my AT guidebooks whole (1st WF's, now the Companion). They don't weigh all that much... :D YMMV.Dino luvs her some Sly, but may have to bite his ornery toes.
Lone Wolf
08-20-2007, 12:35
Just an observation, FWIW. I always thought that the most inaccurate portion of the Thru-hiker's Handbook was the town map details. Never really compared the Companion in this respect.
just ask a local
Alligator
08-20-2007, 12:40
For a customizable database with information printed out by the user, what are some creative ways to lay out the printed material?
Creating three columns lengthwise, then folding in half creates 6 panels per side of the paper. Six panels can also be created by two folds across the width and then in half, but the panels come out squarer. Four panels result from in half and half again. Each panel could hold specific types of information--on trail info for some panels, town information for others. If adequate information can fit on the page, maybe one piece of paper could suffice for a section of trail.
I guess what I'm suggesting is to consider how it will be carried, since most will fold it anyway.
Footslogger
08-20-2007, 12:44
For a customizable database with information printed out by the user, what are some creative ways to lay out the printed material?
Creating three columns lengthwise, then folding in half creates 6 panels per side of the paper. Six panels can also be created by two folds across the width and then in half, but the panels come out squarer. Four panels result from in half and half again. Each panel could hold specific types of information--on trail info for some panels, town information for others. If adequate information can fit on the page, maybe one piece of paper could suffice for a section of trail.
I guess what I'm suggesting is to consider how it will be carried, since most will fold it anyway.
=====================================
Very valid point and one of the critisims of the current Companion.
Bottom line is that the printed output needs needs to fit into a pint/quart sized zip lock ...but I guess you could control that with "margins" on whatever medium you were using for the printout.
'Slogger
Dino luvs her some Sly, but may have to bite his ornery toes.
I may like that! ;)
Seems like y'all are trying to re-invent the wheel. :p While on online guidebook is fine and dandy, even if it's free, they're a pain to print for more than a small section. For a thru-hike, it's much easier to buy a hard copy. If any of the info is out of date, I try not to get too bent out of shape and make due. For the most part, all that's really needed is the databook.
PS In the last several years, all of the Companion town maps have been revamped
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 12:51
Well my plan (for now) is to allow you to select start and end point, direction, and how you want miles counted. So if you wanted to start at Erwin and hike to Damascus north, your lay out would start with listings top being Erwin and go down to Damascus with all points shown in the middle based on what you want it to show. So if you don't care about power lines and side trails, but do want water sources and shelters listed, those can be selected or deselected...
Your mileage could start at Erwin as 0.0 or start it as 338.7 based on mileage start point options.
Then my plan it to have colums - left is the mileage, middle is listing with description, and right maybe elevation or something like that. My intent is to make it print on 8.5x11" where you get facing pages so you can fold it down the center to make it a booklet for initial set up. In my playing with this, I could get about a week of hiking on about 3 sheets of paper front to back.
Pedaling Fool
08-20-2007, 12:56
Seems like y'all are trying to re-invent the wheel.
That's why we don't live in caves today. Many have faild trying to re-invent the wheel, but some have succeeded. It's what makes us human.
Well my plan (for now) is to allow you to select start and end point, direction, and how you want miles counted. So if you wanted to start at Erwin and hike to Damascus north, your lay out would start with listings top being Erwin and go down to Damascus with all points shown in the middle based on what you want it to show. So if you don't care about power lines and side trails, but do want water sources and shelters listed, those can be selected or deselected...
Your mileage could start at Erwin as 0.0 or start it as 338.7 based on mileage start point options.
.....
Along these lines, although it hasn't been updated in a few years, y'all should check out Craig's PCT Planner (http://www.pctplanner.com/). I'm sure he'd be willing to help. Just click on "Plan a Hike"
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 13:06
I may like that! ;)
Seems like y'all are trying to re-invent the wheel. :p While on online guidebook is fine and dandy, even if it's free, they're a pain to print for more than a small section. For a thru-hike, it's much easier to buy a hard copy. If any of the info is out of date, I try not to get too bent out of shape and make due. For the most part, all that's really needed is the databook.
PS In the last several years, all of the Companion town maps have been revamped
That is why e-books went away right LOL.
Sure, some may think it is a pain to print, but my experience with this sort of thing is it makes it easy for an internet consumer which is what many people on here are or are becoming. They can get on here, look at the data and default views, play with it a little, then hit the print button and go get coffee or pack some mail drops. They may not even want it front to back - front only and leave the back blank for personal notes. They may have an office where they can have some lacky make it for them, they may have nothing better to do all day but play with their custom guidebook and dream about their hike.
But thik about this: this means they don't have to order a book and wait for it to show up. This means they don't have to drive around to book stores trying to see who has the book or can get it. This means that the average Joe Computer user can sit at their PC and start putting together a plan with a few keystrokes. And if they like what they see and want a hard copy mailed to them - it could be an option. I would most likely have links for the Databook and Companion anyway because they both give the opposite levels of detail on either end of the spectrum - so on-line access for planning, and then buing the Databook to carry - heck, people come here all the time looking for that sort of thing anyway. But saying it is like saying this is re-inventing the wheel is like saying the Internet is re-inventing what newspapers already deliver. This has a lot more potential than a static print media that only comes out once a year.
Alligator
08-20-2007, 13:09
I usually just carry a map, so I can't say much about what info. people like most for the trail part. I do print out some of the Companion some times.
But for towns, it would seem like you could fit a town in each of six panels on one side of a piece of paper, or maybe go to four or three if necessary if there were small town maps. The program could decide as needed.
If printing on two sides, one panel could be used to indicate what towns are inside the paper.
SGT Rock
08-20-2007, 13:14
I imagine you could. For now I plan to get the system set up where it creates a block of data for the town (or other point) based on your selections. If you wanted to set up a guidebook of AT towns, then you could select in your default settings to leave out all other listings but towns, and then print that out and have a seperate book for town guides. Or you could set it up to print out the general databook style listings for the trail - and print that all one sided. Then go back and do a print for the towns in that section on the back side of each page that the towns are in. Actually that is an interesting idea... :-?
Alligator
08-20-2007, 13:32
You could end up with a couple of base layout styles (with examples) that the user could select from, plus the option for personal setups too.
Ultimately, I think 'Slogger was right on about them ending up in a ziplock of some size.
Sounds like the printing part of this might be getting too complex for the average Joe or Jane.
If the goal is to create a 5.5x8.5 booklet (8.5x11 folded in half), somewhere along the way it will have to be paginated into half-pages and printed on full pages. To work best, a printer with duplexing (printing both sides at the same time) capabilities would be required.
So, will the software utilized on the website be able to compose 5.5x8.5 pages, and continuously paginate them? For example, if you have eight 5.5x8.5 pages and want it to end up being a booklet, it would require pagination on 8.5x11 sheets in landscape mode as follows:
8-1
2-7 (back side of 8-1)
6-3
4-5 (back side of 6-3)
And what happens when the data overflows page 8 and creates a 9th or 10th page? Will the software re-paginate?
If you leave these layout duties up to the individual, some may be able to do it but many will not.
My thoughts on guide books are pretty much in line with what Sly says. The ATC data book, or portions of it, are all I want in my pack. It has the basic info by mileage I want, is rarely off so much it matters and I belong to and support the ATC. My data book from 2000 became a ragged, water stained daily log of my adventure and rests happily with my other treasures of the AT.
Just like water, the best way to carry info is in you, not on you. The larger, heavier "guidebooks" are great before I leave home, but no way do I want to carry them. At best, I'd consider bouncing the ALDHA Companion along the way if thru-hiking. (ALDHA, mainly because, like the ATC, I like what they're all about.)
As for PDA's and such...not interested, just me.
Internet research, news, info search, google...constantly when home.
Down loads...yea, but this is pre-hike fun stuff. Downloaded but commited to memory.
Maps....great guides. I always carry one with the ATC data book.
ALDHA's, Wingfoot's, the ATC's individual guidebook or whoever's guidebook...love them all, keep as many as my bookshelves will hold and wish I had more... from every year.
IMHO, the best guide books for hiking the Appalachian Trail are "Walking with Spring", "Walking on the Happy Side of Misery", "Blind Courage", "Walking the Appalachian Trail", "AWOL on the AT" or any of the many accounts available.
Alligator
08-21-2007, 11:30
Sounds like the printing part of this might be getting too complex for the average Joe or Jane.
If the goal is to create a 5.5x8.5 booklet (8.5x11 folded in half), somewhere along the way it will have to be paginated into half-pages and printed on full pages. To work best, a printer with duplexing (printing both sides at the same time) capabilities would be required.
So, will the software utilized on the website be able to compose 5.5x8.5 pages, and continuously paginate them? For example, if you have eight 5.5x8.5 pages and want it to end up being a booklet, it would require pagination on 8.5x11 sheets in landscape mode as follows:
8-1
2-7 (back side of 8-1)
6-3
4-5 (back side of 6-3)
And what happens when the data overflows page 8 and creates a 9th or 10th page? Will the software re-paginate?
If you leave these layout duties up to the individual, some may be able to do it but many will not.Your absolutely correct there Skyline, it shouldn't be left up to the individual. That type of pagination should be hard coded into the program. There should even be light fold marks printed. IMO it would be best if the user picked the type of printer, single or duplex, and maybe the layout (# of panels). After that, the program ought to lay it out. Now getting the program hard coded could be an intial chore, templates can be tedious. I have a graphing template which I use to lay out 4 panel XY graphs in a program I use. I had to layout the coordinates for the corners of the the four panels and then the order. But now that I have that template, I can print any four graphs into the 4 panel display quite easily.
Your absolutely correct there Skyline, it shouldn't be left up to the individual. That type of pagination should be hard coded into the program. There should even be light fold marks printed. IMO it would be best if the user picked the type of printer, single or duplex, and maybe the layout (# of panels). After that, the program ought to lay it out. Now getting the program hard coded could be an intial chore, templates can be tedious. I have a graphing template which I use to lay out 4 panel XY graphs in a program I use. I had to layout the coordinates for the corners of the the four panels and then the order. But now that I have that template, I can print any four graphs into the 4 panel display quite easily.
I don't know how this would be done on the internet, but in the commercial printing realm you would make your pages first--as single pages--in a professional page layout application like InDesign or QuarkXPress (but we avoid consumer programs like MS Publisher, MS Word, etc.).
For this project, always think in multiples of 4 pgs. (4, 8, 12, 16, etc.). If you wind up with only 10 pgs., as an example, create two blank dummy pgs. (11 and 12) to make it a multiple of 4. When you are all finished, you would save one version with a file name incorporating "single pages" so you could go back and edit if necessary. Then you would save a second version with a file name incorporating "printer spreads" from which to print. After that, you would convert the "printer spreads" version to a paginated booklet format (8-1, 2-7, 6-3, 4-5 as an example) using a booklets feature in InDesign or more likely a separate page imposition program.
Lastly, so it can be printed on almost any laser or inkjet printer without having to own the authoring software--convert to PDF.
Does anyone know if there is web-based software that could substitute for InDesign or Quark for the project under discussion? I know InDesign can be converted to HTML and XML, but it's a high-end application with a price tag to match. Also not sure how (or if) it would sync with a web browser.
Generally speaking, a website needing well-formatted, printed output will will have pre-built PDFs available for download. I have seen some sites where customizable output is possible using pre-made Acrobat master pages along with programming against the Acrobat API to make available these custom PDFs for download. They all have one thing in common, a gang of programmers.
I think the easier and cheaper way is to provide 3 or 4 print stylesheets, to be selectable by a user after he selects how much data he wants in his trail guide. Then the user will print directly from his browser. I think most printers these days have a "size to fit" setting. The problem with all this is that browsers can and often do display pages differently.
In any case, Rock, if you go ahead with this, you're gonna be learning a lot about database, php, css and html scripting.
SGT Rock
08-21-2007, 16:25
LOL, and I don't know if I want to waste that much time in my life.
Yeah, but think of how much fun you'll have and all the evil stares you'll get from your wife as you write code.
If you want the ultimate guide book for just yourself, let me tell you how a guy made one while preparing for the PCT this year. He scanned all the PCT guide books and converted them to text using OCR software. He then merged the sections of the various guides together (deleting stuff he didn't want) into one document. He brought an electronic reader trail use. He then took the free PCT topo maps from HikerTrash (http://www.hikertrash.com/) and added water source information from the guidebooks to them (with mileage info) an printed those out.
What he didn't do that I thought would be good would be to print his editted guidebook on the back of the corresponding map pages. This would be my idea of the ultimate guide book.
The Weasel
08-28-2007, 22:42
If you want the ultimate guide book for just yourself, let me tell you how a guy made one while preparing for the PCT this year. He scanned all the PCT guide books and converted them to text using OCR software. He then merged the sections of the various guides together (deleting stuff he didn't want) into one document. He brought an electronic reader trail use. He then took the free PCT topo maps from HikerTrash (http://www.hikertrash.com/) and added water source information from the guidebooks to them (with mileage info) an printed those out.
What he didn't do that I thought would be good would be to print his editted guidebook on the back of the corresponding map pages. This would be my idea of the ultimate guide book.
Damn dang! THANK YOU!!!!!! Place this post in the PCT threads, please!
The Weasel
bigcranky
08-29-2007, 08:13
What he didn't do that I thought would be good would be to print his editted guidebook on the back of the corresponding map pages. This would be my idea of the ultimate guide book.
The ATC showed something like this a few years ago in their catalog. Laminated cards, one per section, with a map on one side and the databook/companion info on the other. They kept saying "coming soon," but never came (as far as I know).
So I ended up doing my own for our section hikes. Using several guidebooks, plus scanned elevation profiles, I created spreadsheets with all the data I wanted (culled from the databook, WF's guide, and the Companion), and put the profile down one side. Printed and laminated, they worked pretty well. But they are a lot of work (though what else am I going to do all winter?)
I guess this is to say that I'd buy the map/guide cards from the ATC if they were ever available.
The Old Fhart
08-29-2007, 16:36
Miner-""If you want the ultimate guide book for just yourself, let me tell you how a guy made one while preparing for the PCT this year. He scanned all the PCT guide books and converted them to text using OCR software. He then merged the sections of the various guides together (deleting stuff he didn't want) into one document. He brought an electronic reader trail use."I basically did the same sort of thing back in 1998 for my A.T. thru hike. Because it was only for my own use and I owned the data book, I scanned the book with OCR software and imported it into a spreadsheet, keeping it in columns, then I could eliminate the ME-GA column and change the direction so I wasn't reading it backwards. After I had it the way I wanted and so it would view properly on my palmtop computer, I outputted it as a text file that was a reasonable size for my HP100lx memory to handle.
The DOS based text editor on that pc looked and acted like WORD on my desktop so the files were easy to transfer back and forth. I also had all the usual names/addresses/contacts stored along with several novels to read. I would lay in my tent at night and type my journal with my thumbs (like you do on the small handheld games)) by candle light, which I thought was somewhat ironic, and when I got home I could transfer the data to my desktop to spell check and edit. The HP100lx weighted 11oz. and used 2 AA batteries that lasted a very long time. If I had carried the Data Book and a notebook for my journal it would have weighed at least that so I wasn't carrying any extra weight, not that I'm a gram weenie.;) I did carry the ATC paper maps because the pc didn't have the capabilities to display a proper map and it didn't have a color screen plus there is just something about having a good size paper map that has lots of detail.
The problem with printing your own customized guides or maps is most home printers are inkjets and the printout is NOT waterproof. If you have a laser printer at home to get waterproof prints, they probably aren't color capable. The ATC maps are extremely durable and waterproof. If you choose to carry a computer like I did you have to be very careful to not destroy it in some creative way. I carried mY HP100lx in a padded pouch on the sternum strap of my pack where it was always handy. If it was wet it stayed deep in my pack inside about 3 ziplock bags to make sure it stayed dry. It survived the entire trip and is still working to this day although it has been replaced with a more up-to-date version. Hey, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to watch movies in the privacy of my tent!:D
OK. I'll take another crack at this.
How about Dueling Guidebooks?
NanaNeernaNeernaNeernaNuunuu.
Jack Tarlin
08-29-2007, 19:04
Um, I just read this thread.
So if it's not a secret, who exactly is the author of this new work anyway, and what is their background, especially their A.T. background? I cannot for the life of me figure out why this is being kept such a secret.....you'd think the author of this work would advertise his A.T. knowledge and recent experience, especially on his website......assuming, of course, that he actually has it. Anyone that can shed light on this should do so. One has to wonder why the author of this work is keeping such a low profile.
I also notice that Whiteblaze.net is apparently about to release a similar guide some time in the future.
Quick questions:
1. Will it be available to WB members or will it be for sale only?
2. And if so, who are the listed authors, owners, and beneficiaries of such a work?
3. And how much of it will be material taken directly, or adapted from this website?
If the Whiteblaze Guidebook is a project being being done to support the website and its members, I think that's great, and I can't imagine anyone would object to it. If it's being done to support just a few people, I think this is something that needs to be talked about, especially if the book ends up containing significant information that originally appeared here.
Just curious............
SGT Rock
08-30-2007, 10:54
Um, I just read this thread...
I also notice that Whiteblaze.net is apparently about to release a similar guide some time in the future.
Quick questions:
1. Will it be available to WB members or will it be for sale only?
Don't know. Troll is handeling that end. I hope that we have the digital copy available for the members
2. And if so, who are the listed authors, owners, and beneficiaries of such a work?
I'm not sure how that would be/will be handeled. If any particular information is included (say your re-supply article) then that person should get credit.
3. And how much of it will be material taken directly, or adapted from this website?
Probably a hell of a lot of it.
If the Whiteblaze Guidebook is a project being being done to support the website and its members, I think that's great, and I can't imagine anyone would object to it. If it's being done to support just a few people, I think this is something that needs to be talked about, especially if the book ends up containing significant information that originally appeared here.
Just curious............
If we do it, supporting the website and it's activities (like a feed) will be the objectives. For me, I never intend to take any compensation for anything WhiteBlaze does.
The ATC showed something like this a few years ago in their catalog. Laminated cards, one per section, with a map on one side and the databook/companion info on the other. They kept saying "coming soon," but never came (as far as I know).
So I ended up doing my own for our section hikes. Using several guidebooks, plus scanned elevation profiles, I created spreadsheets with all the data I wanted (culled from the databook, WF's guide, and the Companion), and put the profile down one side. Printed and laminated, they worked pretty well. But they are a lot of work (though what else am I going to do all winter?)
I guess this is to say that I'd buy the map/guide cards from the ATC if they were ever available.
The Maine Guide has all the needed information printed on the back of the maps.
Alligator
09-01-2007, 11:46
I have a couple of questions regarding the Companion that perhaps could be answered here.
1. How many copies were printed and sold last year?
2. How much did it cost to print?
3. Roughly speaking, can anyone guess as to the ratio of hikers carrying the Companion vs. The Handbook?
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 09:07
the new Whiteblaze Pages handbook looks great
www.whiteblazepages.net
hopefulhiker
09-13-2007, 09:31
I really like the idea of the Whiteblazepages book...
Also one time when I lost a couple of data sheets for a section my wife copied them and sent them to me on pocket mail... Just having the data available in email form could be beneficial... I would be interested in creating a database. My wife and I have a little experience with data bases and we do have a copy of Access....
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-13-2007, 10:07
Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
Um, I just read this thread...
I also notice that Whiteblaze.net is apparently about to release a similar guide some time in the future.
Quick questions:
1. Will it be available to WB members or will it be for sale only?
Rock's answer:Don't know. Troll is handeling that end. I hope that we have the digital copy available for the members Since several contributed to the database under the assumption that the material was going to be available to donating members on the web site, I hope it will as well.
2. And if so, who are the listed authors, owners, and beneficiaries of such a work?
Rock's answer:I'm not sure how that would be/will be handeled. If any particular information is included (say your re-supply article) then that person should get credit Excellent questions and one's I hope will be answered.
If the Whiteblaze Guidebook is a project being being done to support the website and its members, I think that's great, and I can't imagine anyone would object to it. If it's being done to support just a few people, I think this is something that needs to be talked about, especially if the book ends up containing significant information that originally appeared here.
Rock's answer:If we do it, supporting the website and it's activities (like a feed) will be the objectives. For me, I never intend to take any compensation for anything WhiteBlaze does.While I wouldn't have a problem with this supporting the site, I would have a problem with it supporting an individual or group of individuals.
FD,
The authors appear to be listed as David Miller, Rick Towle, and the Whiteblaze Community as shown on the cover image at http://whiteblazepages.net/
Hi Rick,
Congratulations on the new book! This will certainly free up some time here in my office, as I will not permit our publishing offices to put out a book to compete with White Blaze Pages!
The ideas we shared via phone seem to be getting put to good use, and I respect all of the time and effort that you have put into White Blaze online, and I wish this endeavor the best success!
It is wonderful that a portion of the proceeds are going to a worthy organization such as the ATC, and I trust the members of White Blaze will support this effort in a grand way.
Our publishing offices have several titles in the works at this time, and we welcome any inquiries from Appalachian Trail hikers who would like to share their A.T. adventure with the world, either in hard copy or via ebook.
Thank You to the hundreds of hikers who responded by emailing us and reserving your guide for next year. Please support the White Blaze Pages !
Sincerely,
SMile :)
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 13:50
I can't help but notice that the "Whiteblaze Community" is getting an author's credit on this new work. I can only assume that this means that a good deal of what's in the new book originated on this website.
A few quick questions: Where will the proceeds of this book end up going? How much of a percentage of this revenue will go to Whiteblaze? And what is the percentage that will go to ATC or elsewhere?
If the book is to be entitled the "Whiteblaze" guide, is this appropriate if most of the profits from the work are actually going to individuals? And if the book is based in part on material originally published here and contributed here for free, is it proper that any individuals should derive personal profit from this material?
Quite frankly, it looks to me that the good name and reputation of "Whiteblaze" is being used as a marketing ploy so a very small handful of people can make some money from it. I'm not sure this is appropriate.
In short, if individuals wish to come up with a new A.T. Handbook or Guidebook, that is, of course, their right. But I question it being called the "Whiteblaze" guide; I'd like to know how much of the book is based on material that first appeared here; and most of all, I question whether or not a book called the "Whiteblaze" guide should be marketed and sold from here, if it is, in fact, a private venture that will primarily benefit only one or two people. Also, giving the "Whiteblaze Community" an author's credit implies that the community approves of this new work, approves of using material from the website to produce this work, and that the commuity happily took an active part in the creation of this work, and I question whether or not this is true.
One of the authors of this book has addressed some of the above questions in a recent letter to me, but I have no intention of airing private correspondence here. However, I think he owes it to the people who contribute to the website to tell them exactly what he told me. After all, if the "Whiteblaze Community" is partly the author of this work, I think we should be aware of the details regarding its publication.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 13:56
I can't help but notice that the "Whiteblaze Community" is getting an author's credit on this new work. I can only assume that this means that a good deal of what's in the new book originated on this website.
A few quick questions: Where will the proceeds of this book end up going? How much of a percentage of this revenue will go to Whiteblaze? And what is the percentage that will go to ATC or elsewhere?
If the book is to be entitled the "Whiteblaze" guide, is this appropriate if most of the profits from the work are actually going to individuals? And if the book is based in part on material originally published here and contributed here for free, is it proper that any individuals should derive personal profit from this material?
Quite frankly, it looks to me that the good name and reputation of "Whiteblaze" is being used as a marketing ploy so a very small handful of people can make some money from it. I'm not sure this is appropriate.
In short, if individuals wish to come up with a new A.T. Handbook or Guidebook, that is, of course, their right. But I question it being called the "Whiteblaze" guide; I'd like to know how much of the book is based on material that first appeared here; and most of all, I question whether or not a book called the "Whiteblaze" guide should be marketed and sold from here, if it is, in fact, a private venture that will primarily benefit only one or two people. Also, giving the "Whiteblaze Community" an author's credit implies that the community approves of this new work, approves of using material from the website to produce this work, and that the commuity happily took an active part in the creation of this work, and I question whether or not this is true.
One of the authors of this book has addressed some of the above questions in a recent letter to me, but I have no intention of airing private correspondence here. However, I think he owes it to the people who contribute to the website to tell them exactly what he told me. After all, if the "Whiteblaze Community" is partly the author of this work, I think we should be aware of the details regarding its publication.
none of your business where proceeds go.
Nothing against Whiteblaze but personally I don't like the idea of Whiteblaze Pages. If anything, I think efforts of the "community" should have been made to help improve the ALDHA/ATC Companion.
none of your business where proceeds go.
Sure there is if they're using some of Jack's work, which I'm sure they are.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:01
Sure there is if they're using some of Jack's work, which I'm sure they are.
how do you know for SURE?
how do you know for SURE?
A little birdie told me. :p
Didn't an above post say that lots of the information that Jack provided will be in the guidebook? I didn't see a credit to Jack anywhere, and I doubt Jack is getting control of any royalties...
"Technically, any Internet posting (such as blogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogs) or emails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email)) could be considered copyrighted material unless explicitly stated otherwise."
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 14:06
Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I am not interested in any way, shape, or form in being compensated financially for anything I've contriuted to Whiteblaze. I've been an active participanthere for years, always willing to share this information for FREE.
But Wolf is incorrect. If a book is going to be called the "Whiteblaze" guide or "Whiteblaze" handbook, then it is entirely proper to know whether the proceeds will benefit the website, the ATC, or merely a handful of individuals. This is especially important since the "Whiteblaze Community" is being given an author's credit.
News to Wolf: Authors of books generally have a great interest in how their book is selling and how much money it is making. To say that this is not their business is ridiculous. If this information is not the author's business, then whose business is it? :-?
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:07
Didn't an above post say that lots of the information that Jack provided will be in the guidebook? I didn't see a credit to Jack anywhere, and I doubt Jack is getting control of any royalties...
"Technically, any Internet posting (such as blogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogs) or emails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email)) could be considered copyrighted material unless explicitly stated otherwise."
Jack is not the only person that has provided info on this site. LOTS of others have
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-13-2007, 14:08
I'm assuming that Jack's excellent resupply article's info is included in the guidebook. However, no birds have spoken to me lately. You feeling OK, Sly? ;):D
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:09
Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I am not interested in any way, shape, or form in being compensated financially for anything I've contriuted to Whiteblaze. I've been an active participanthere for years, always willing to share this information for FREE.
But Wolf is incorrect. If a book is going to be called the "Whiteblaze" guide or "Whiteblaze" handbook, then it is entirely proper to know whether the proceeds will benefit the website, the ATC, or merely a handful of individuals. This is especially important since the "Whiteblaze Community" is being given an author's credit.
News to Wolf: Authors of books generally have a great interest in how their book is selling and how much money it is making. To say that this is not their business is ridiculous. If this information is not the author's business, then whose business is it? :-?
PM the authors with your questions. don't start a whinefest
hopefulhiker
09-13-2007, 14:09
No matter who wrote it, I just ordered one....
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:10
looks like it will better than the Companion
"Technically, any Internet posting (such as blogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogs) or emails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email)) could be considered copyrighted material unless explicitly stated otherwise."
Actually I think most, or all, data such as mileage, is public domain. There's nothing stopping anyone from copying such from the databook, Companion or Whiteblaze pages and making they're own book. It's only the particular format that's "copyrightable".
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 14:13
Um, Wolf, I HAVE engaged in personal correspondence with one of the authors, who was gracious enough to reply.
My point is that the information he imparted to me would also be of interest to other people as well. I have no intention of revealing what was said to me in private correspondence, so I'm hoping that the author will be so kind as to share the information he shared with me with the entire Whiteblaze Community as well. In that we seem to be co-authors of this book, I think we have a right to know.
You might have no interest in the issues or questions I've raised, Wolf, and that's fine. But I assure you, there are other people who might feel differently.
looks like it will better than the Companion
Why, you've only seen two pages. Data is similar, maps are similar. The only thing I see different is the profile map, but since it corresponds with the elevations directly to the right, it's not all that big a deal.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:17
Why, you've only seen two pages. Data is similar, maps are similar. The only thing I see different is the profile map, but since it corresponds with the elevations directly to the right, it's not all that big a deal.
i'm thinking a lot of info for 08 won't make it in the Companion. this years editor hasn't answered e-mails or tried to contact quite a few field editors
none of my business where the proceeds go, but there would be nothing improper if it goes to the individuals that put it together.
It is next to impossible to copyright facts. Any information that has been brodcast here on a public forum is in the public domain. Anyone can take those facts and publish them.
Looks like a good book, I will probbably buy one, I wish the publishers well.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 14:19
As to whether or not this work will prove to be "better than the Companion, only time will tell, Wolf
However, I can see half a dozen errors or omissions just on the Hot Springs Map. :-?
I hope that this book is not rushed into print, but that sufficient time and care is taken in its production. This is especially the case if it appears under the "Whiteblaze" name.
A work that contains mistakes, omissions, and inaccuracies will not only be a dis-service to hikers, but it will also damage the reputation and good name of this website, and that'd be a great shame.
i'm thinking a lot of info for 08 won't make it in the Companion. this years editor hasn't answered e-mails or tried to contact quite a few field editors
Yeah that was troubling. I guess she was hiking out west but is home now. Have you mailed her your stuff?
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 14:21
Yeah that was troubling. I guess she was hiking out west but is home now. Have you mailed her your stuff?
yeah i have
yeah i have
Then it should get in the book. I talked to Mrs Gorp yesterday and it didn't appear there was a problem. Still, the lack of communication from Leslie was troubling.
Then it should get in the book. I talked to Mrs Gorp yesterday and it didn't appear there was a problem. Still, the lack of communication from Leslie was troubling.
Leslie is back and working on the Companion.
Marta/Five-Leaf
Didn't an above post say that lots of the information that Jack provided will be in the guidebook? I didn't see a credit to Jack anywhere, and I doubt Jack is getting control of any royalties...
"Technically, any Internet posting (such as blogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogs) or emails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email)) could be considered copyrighted material unless explicitly stated otherwise."
It is explicitly stated in the Whiteblaze copyright notice. I quote...
"All content posted on the message boards and gallery of WhiteBlaze is the exclusive intellectual property of WhiteBlaze. Copyright ownership resides in that content by WhiteBlaze and the Company is free to use any of the content as they wish. Anyone other than WhiteBlaze seeking to reprint, republish, or reproduce content posted on the WhiteBlaze message boards must receive the express written permission from the Webmaster of the WhiteBlaze forum in which the content was posted. By posting on the WhiteBlaze message boards you are agreeing to the above and relinquishing all copyright to the contents of the post(s) to WhiteBlaze."
LW has it right, nobody's business but the owners of the "Company".
Right on. Free enterprise.
Anyone who wants to publish a book, can.
The above post is true, however the copyright notice is a moot point with reference to the guide book since the logistical information on the trail (shelter locations, mileage, points of interest on trail) are public domain and not privately owned, nor is it intellectual property.
:)
It is explicitly stated in the Whiteblaze copyright notice. I quote...
"All content posted on the message boards and gallery of WhiteBlaze is the exclusive intellectual property of WhiteBlaze. Copyright ownership resides in that content by WhiteBlaze and the Company is free to use any of the content as they wish. Anyone other than WhiteBlaze seeking to reprint, republish, or reproduce content posted on the WhiteBlaze message boards must receive the express written permission from the Webmaster of the WhiteBlaze forum in which the content was posted. By posting on the WhiteBlaze message boards you are agreeing to the above and relinquishing all copyright to the contents of the post(s) to WhiteBlaze."
LW has it right, nobody's business but the owners of the "Company".
Sounds like a rip off. Any photo I upload becomes property of Whiteblaze? With wording and attitudes like that, I'd be less willing to contribute. YMMV
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-13-2007, 16:05
While I certainly feel credit should be given where it is due, the wording in the website's TOS is fairly standard. Go look at the wording on other sites you visit. It is there primarily to keep another site from lifting an entire discussion from the site and republishing on their site.
Any photo I upload becomes property of Whiteblaze? With wording and attitudes like that, I'd be less willing to contribute.
So post your photos elsewhere and link them as do others. No big deal.:)
Awol2003
09-13-2007, 16:20
Please don't think any of these concerns (eg: use of the "WhiteBlaze Community") are being ignored. I look forward to posting a bunch of info about this book, and will do so when I am off work around 8pm.
Thanks to everyone for taking a look and expressing interest. The sample pages are labelled "DRAFT" because we will be updating info right up to the time we go to print. It is in the nature of things to change.
Omissions are necessary to keep the book small and uncluttered, but if the wrong choices of omission were made, we are open to reconsider. And of course inaccuracies gotta go...please tell us about them. BTW: Our recalcitrant Hot Springs volunteer fact checker has yet to make all of her calls.
While I certainly feel credit should be given where it is due, the wording in the website's TOS is fairly standard. Go look at the wording on other sites you visit. It is there primarily to keep another site from lifting an entire discussion from the site and republishing on their site.
Huh, who's going to do that on a hiking forum without the principals leading the discussion involved?
I don't like the wording. From what chief posted all photos uploaded become WB property?
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 16:26
On the other hand, if a few select individuals plan to use information from the website in order to produce a book that would primarily benefit themselves, I think they should have clearly stated their intentions months ago. I don't believe that people contributed over the years to this website so that people could make money from the work and contributions of thousands of folks who volunteered their knowledge or expertise. To take information that was provided freely out of kindness and to then take it and sell it for personal gain, well I'm sorry, but I don't approve.
Merely because someone has the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily make it the wisest or best thing to do.
I would like to go and record and clearly state that I do NOT want anything I've written for Whiteblaze.net to appear in this book, either in original form, or creatively re-written.
If people are interested in anything I've written, well, they can get it here for free. But seeing it in print elsewhere, for sale, is more than a little distasteful. This is one member of the "Whiteblaze Community" that is not interested in an author's credit on this book.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 16:31
I appreciate AWOL's comment above and look forward to his next post.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 16:33
FWIW, I am not taking anything in compensation for this. FWIW I also only gave some advice on formating - I haven't had anything to do with figuring this whole thing out.
Anyway, from what I have seen I like the format OK. Sort of solves some of the problems I had with the Companion format in an interesting way.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-13-2007, 16:33
Huh, who's going to do that on a hiking forum without the principals leading the discussion involved?
I don't like the wording. From what chief posted all photos uploaded become WB property?On the discussion thing - I've seen it happen on diet sites as a 'springboard' for a similar discussion on another site. I'm not crazy about the wording myself, but I've been involved with enough sites to know that is pretty standard wording.
As to credit, I would hope that anyone who has contributed a lot of material - like Jack has - to the database would be credited. It isn't a matter of of 'is it legal not to credit the source', but a matter of ethics and common courtesy IMO. As Sly noted, failing to credit a large contributor could easily sour the publication's relationship with such contributors. It would make it difficult to get people who know a lot about the trail and have a network of friends from whom to get current information to cooperate in supplying information for future updates.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 16:40
Ohh, and I would have liked to see the book called "The WHITE Pages"
So post your photos elsewhere and link them as do others. No big deal.:)
Thanks for the advice, but's not the point.
On the other hand, if a few select individuals plan to use information from the website in order to produce a book that would primarily benefit themselves, I think they should have clearly stated their intentions months ago. I don't believe that people contributed over the years to this website so that people could make money from the work and contributions of thousands of folks who volunteered their knowledge or expertise. To take information that was provided freely out of kindness and to then take it and sell it for personal gain, well I'm sorry, but I don't approve.
Merely because someone has the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily make it the wisest or best thing to do.
I am with Jack here to a point. Perhaps it would be in the authors' best interest to come clean now and share their thinking behind this book. I think of WhiteBlaze as a non-commercial site where one can freely learn and share with their fellow hikers. I would hate to see that image tarnished in any way by commercializing the contributions made here without some kind of explanation on why it is a good thing and how it would help those of us who freely share the information. I will reserve my judgement until I hear from the authors.
generoll
09-13-2007, 17:04
I doubt that anything substantive has been put in this book that wasn't also available elsewhere. From what I have been able to gather the majpr difference between this book and others is the format. It appears that an attempt has been made to make this more user friendly, if you'll forgive an overused phrase.
The looseleaf format seems especially handy for a section hiker such as myself, but I can see how it would also be good for a through hiker that was using mail drops.
I didn't notice any pictures that might be included, but then if there was something I didn't want published I don't think I would post it on the internet anyway.
As far as the money is concerned, no offense intended but I doubt this is going to make the New York Times best seller list. If the writers/compilers make enough to cover expenses and buy themselves a nice dinner with the "profit" then more power to them.
Having said that, it might be a matter of courtesy to give honorable mention when information is connected to a specific individual. It's always nice to have someone to blame when things go wring :)
Just a Hiker
09-13-2007, 17:05
Maybe I have taken too many blows to the head, but I am confused about who exactly is publishing this guide book?
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 17:15
Troll and AWOL are - they apparently started collaboration while I was in Iraq.
Generoll, I agree with your points on the uniqueness and profitability of this venture. I also think that this book may be a needed improvement over the companion and has potential to replace the now defunk WF databook. I think the issue that people are having are not over the book itself, but how it is being marketed and the lack of communication to the community that contributes to the marketing brand.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 17:17
FWIW as well - for the record I do not now, nor do I ever want any compensation for WhiteBlaze. Anything I sell or do in that vien will be from my own site.
And I think that the digital copy should be available on-line for members. I could easily convert it to Adobe PDF.
dixicritter
09-13-2007, 17:19
FWIW as well - for the record I do not now, nor do I ever want any compensation for WhiteBlaze.
I just wanted to echo what he said here. I will never take any compensation for helping out on WhiteBlaze either.
The looseleaf format seems especially handy for a section hiker such as myself, but I can see how it would also be good for a through hiker that was using mail drops.
Actually it says it will use perforated tear out pages, not exactly loose leaf. The Companion change from a spiral bound book, closer to loose leaf but that was changed back to a bound book at the suggestion of users.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 17:22
I just wanted to echo what he said here. I will never take any compensation for helping out on WhiteBlaze either.
if any of my pithy comments are used, i would like some beer money. damn right. :)
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 17:32
If you're paid by the pith, that'll keep you in beer til the next century. :D
Many of us have contributed to both Wingfoot's handbook and to ALDHA's Companion over the years. The former was essentially a cottage industry that, when it made a profit, financially benefitted WF. I don't begrudge him the use of any info I provided, and sincerely hope he was able to make a few bucks on his publishing enterprises. Glad to have been a resource for him in fact.
Being a section editor and later a fact-checker for the Companion, ditto—tho profit, if any, does go to non-profit organizations and not an individual.
What Jack has contributed to WB, however, is significantly different. He has supplied an exhaustive research project drawing upon over a decade of first-hand experience and contacts to the "Articles" section of this website, and it's a really good one. He did so with the knowledge, or at least understanding, that his efforts would benefit thousands of future thru-hikers who come to WB for info without any financial consideration for anyone. Jack, like the operators of this site, give of their free time and don't expect to make any money from their efforts. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they did and were upfront about it, but AFAIK they don't.
If Jack had wanted to, he could have probably marketed his research project for a couple bucks per copy and kept himself in cigarettes and bourbon for the next couple years. He chose not to do this, and gave it away for free through WB instead. It is pretty easy to understand how he might feel betrayed about now if the new guidebook might include the end-result of his many hours of work, that it might be used without his consent, especially if others will potentially make some money from the book (tho I'm thinking profit will be harder to come by than criticism).
At this point, IMHO it would be appropriate for those who might potentially make a profit from the new guidebook to first, offer a printed credit to each and every contributor of text, maps, photos, etc.; and second, to offer to pay a stipend of some sort to authors of major articles. I'll bet many contributors to the Articles section would turn the money down, but it would sure be worth a lot of goodwill for the offer to be made. Such an offer could be made on a contingency of profitability for the first couple years if necessary.
It's really great that a new AT guidebook will emerge following the demise of Wingfoot's Handbook. The Companion has improved in recent years and may continue to improve, but competition is healthy. Though I have way too much on my plate right now to offer to be a section editor, I would be happy to be asked to be a fact-checker for info in my area (SNP) after someone else did the legwork.
FWIW, I've compiled, composed and edited guides like the proposed WhiteBlaze guide. It's a monumental task that never seems to end, and that always seem to need updated right up until press time. It's sometimes a thankless job, and I hope the principals know what they're getting into. I would like to add one final piece of advice: Hire or recruit a volunteer editor who is absolutely anal about spelling, style consistency, details, and formatting—and who will set a good example as it regards adhering to deadlines. Don't try to do this yourselves. The end result will be so much better, and you will have a finished product you can be proud of.
I hope these growing pains for a fledgling enterprise, which are fairly customary BTW, can be resolved by people with cool heads and I look forward to pre-ordering my copy this week.
It's really great that a new AT guidebook will emerge following the demise of Wingfoot's Handbook. The Companion has improved in recent years and may continue to improve, but competition is healthy.
In this case I don't agree competition is healthy. Even though a portion of the proceeds will be donated to the trail, it's still taking money away from the trail.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 18:03
In this case I don't agree competition is healthy. Even though a portion of the proceeds will be donated to the trail, it's still taking money away from the trail.
NOBODY has said the authors will pocket $$ on this. buncha gun jumpin' goin' on. wingfoot kept all his profit and nobody bitched. if it were me any extra $$ would go to the smaller maintaining clubs up and down the AT. the ATC would just use it for their fancy magazine, salaries, etc.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 18:08
Actually, Wolf, if you actually knew what the folks who work at the ATC office make, you wouldn't have made that last comment.
NOBODY has said the authors will pocket $$ on this. buncha gun jumpin' goin' on. wingfoot kept all his profit and nobody bitched.
from http://whiteblazepages.net/
- A portion of every book sold on WhiteBlaze.net will be donated to the ATC.
I went anti-WF Guidebook when I joined ALDHA and when I started helping out with the Companion. Improvements have been made and will continue to be made.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 18:12
Actually, Wolf, if you actually knew what the folks who work at the ATC office make, you wouldn't have made that last comment.
why? where do their salaries come from? and so you know everyone's salary at ATC? why would they tell you? and if they are underpaid well they choose to work there.
this is STRAIGHT FORWARD. stay on topic
If you're paid by the pith, that'll keep you in beer til the next century. :DGet paid in beer. It'll turn to pith in a couple hourth.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 18:17
Speaking of staying on topic, Wolf, it was YOU who brought up how much people make at the ATC, not me.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 18:22
Speaking of staying on topic, Wolf, it was YOU who brought up how much people make at the ATC, not me.
no. you brought up how much they MAKE. i said what little $$ comes from books, etc probably goes for SALARIES
Quite frankly, it looks to me that the good name and reputation of "Whiteblaze" is being used as a marketing ploy so a very small handful of people can make some money from it. I'm not sure this is appropriate.For years Rick has been funneling his own money into this website. I see no reason why the website's name cannot be used in such a way as to help it pay for itself. Personally, I think it is damn generous of him to donate part of the money to the ATC.
warren doyle
09-13-2007, 18:36
This is another WhiteBlaze community member that wishes WhiteBlaze Pages well.
I will continue to offer information for the 'hearts and minds' of AT hikers by face-to-face interaction at the Gathering, Appalachian Trail Institute, Damascus Trail Days and at other venues; along with my free downloadable one-page 'book' (26th edition).
Grandma Gatewood was right when she said "it is more heart than heel" and certainly the trail experience is more than towns, motels, dining facilities, shelters, resupply points, miles and elevation profiles.
Happy trails!
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 18:37
Well Rock's contributions haven't been exactly shabby either, especially when you consider where he's been keeping himself lately.
Yet I don't see HIM having anything to do with this project, or wanting anything to do with it.
Hell, I'm not sure that til recently he even KNEW about it.
generoll
09-13-2007, 18:55
I suppose that at the very worst this might come under the heading of an 'oops!' moment. Good intentions tripped up by forgetting to cross all the 'T's and dot all the 'I's.
If the authors are using information from this site, then isn't it already available to anyone who chooses to log on? All they are doing is putting that information in one convenient, portable location. Now I don't have to lug my laptop with me when I go backpacking.
I don't wish to sound like I am trying to diminish the value of anything that has been posted here. I've gotten a lot of useful information as well as insight from this site. If I had anything of real value to contribute other then my freely shared opinion (value subjective there), I'd hope that it was worth reprinting. Since the book is still in the draft stage, couldn't those who object to their information being included ask to be excluded? Am I being naive about this?
I would like to know how much money the Companion puts in the pocket of the ATC and ALDHA.
As I am disinclined to put much effort into this quest for information, does anyone have a ballpark figure off the top of thier head who is willing to share it?
My guess is that its not all that much, and that the real value to the hiking community is the information being shared. But I don't know.
This new project seems cool.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 19:02
I don't know. I imagine it wouldn't be that hard. For the last three or so years I have made my own "Companion" by taking the digital edition of the "Companion" by refining the data and changing the format. I just finished refining the data from the 2007 Companion (I was waiting for the 2008, but I leave before it comes out) and a total re-do of the format only took me a few days - and that was a lot of simple format work. Today I went through the entire thing and even printed and collated the book then broke it down for my mail drops. My experience doing this is it would only take me about 10 minutes to take Jack's comments (I have been inluding his re-supply info in mine) out of my book. BTW, I only do this for my own use.
Edit add...
I'm also working on a thru-hiker guide for the BMT with another member of the association. It took me about 4 hours last night to update this with the 2007 information for mileage and some format changes. What I find takes the most time and effort is collecting data for places like trail towns. Unless you actually visit a town or have someone that does it for you (like the Companion field editors do) it is really hard to collect accurate data or find out the good stuff about a town like Cherokee.
generoll
09-13-2007, 19:38
For what it's worth, I think a BMT guide might require more 'footnoting' then the AT guides. On the AT it's pretty obvious where to resupply at Neels Gap or the NOC for instance. The BMT right now seems a to have a lot less in hiker support so those tips on resupply and road connections would appear to be a lot more valuable.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 19:43
I'll let you know come February.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-13-2007, 19:50
Dinos can't wait for BMT guide - I may hike the BMT instead of the AT to avoid the GSMNP. We hate crowded trails.
Lone Wolf
09-13-2007, 19:52
Dinos can't wait for BMT guide - I may hike the BMT instead of the AT to avoid the GSMNP. We hate crowded trails.
shoulda come with me and rock coupla weeks ago. friggin empty trail
Awol2003
09-13-2007, 19:53
My posts will come in installments. I’m not a fast typist and I don’t want to throw out sound bites. Please don’t think I’ve failed to address everything because it’s not in this posting.
“Give us a chance; let it give us a chance, my precious-ss-ss”
The “WhiteBlaze Community” is a simplification. It is a loosely-defined term to give attribution to the people who help with this book. It could be more accurately written as:
“Group of volunteers who have (or will) gather information about the trail because they like being part of the AT family or because they are personal friends of AT Troll or Awol or because they are thankful that we haven’t told about their drunken incident involving farm animals.”
…but that wouldn’t fit on the cover or help to sell books.
Some of these volunteers aren’t even WhiteBlaze regulars, so they might feel slighted by the wording. There are WhiteBlazers already making contributions and we assumed that there would be more.
Edit add...
I'm also working on a thru-hiker guide for the BMT with another member of the association. It took me about 4 hours last night to update this with the 2007 information for mileage and some format changes. What I find takes the most time and effort is collecting data for places like trail towns. Unless you actually visit a town or have someone that does it for you (like the Companion field editors do) it is really hard to collect accurate data or find out the good stuff about a town like Cherokee.
Rock, if you need any help with that let me know. I'd be willing to visit a few towns along the trail.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 20:07
Dinos can't wait for BMT guide - I may hike the BMT instead of the AT to avoid the GSMNP. We hate crowded trails.
The BMT Databook 2007 is out. I have a copy I can loan you if you ever want it. I am waiting on my updated 2008 copy.
shoulda come with me and rock coupla weeks ago. friggin empty trail
Tell it brother. That was a sweet hike.
Rock, if you need any help with that let me know. I'd be willing to visit a few towns along the trail.
When are you coming out this way? As for visiting towns - I am going to be doing some data collecting in Tapoco, Cherokee, and Davenport Gap (looks like someone is working on Mt Momma's), other people are hitting other locations along the trail. I've set up a system for data entry that makes it easy to change the guide for re-routes and updated all the data points for the 2007 milage and altitudes. I have even filled in about 1/3 of the entries with some place holder data that I've gotten through web and phone research. If the system works out the way I have it planned, an updated guide can take about a day of editor work once the field editors submit their stuff.
When are you coming out this way? As for visiting towns - I am going to be doing some data collecting in Tapoco, Cherokee, and Davenport Gap (looks like someone is working on Mt Momma's), other people are hitting other locations along the trail. I've set up a system for data entry that makes it easy to change the guide for re-routes and updated all the data points for the 2007 milage and altitudes. I have even filled in about 1/3 of the entries with some place holder data that I've gotten through web and phone research. If the system works out the way I have it planned, an updated guide can take about a day of editor work once the field editors submit their stuff.
I'm in Georgia now, but starting tomorrow I'll be on the road again until after the Gathering. First stop Bristol, TN for the Rhythm and Roots Reunion Festival (http://www.bristolrhythm.com/). I could visit a town or two along the way if you need or wait until I get back.
Awol2003
09-13-2007, 20:51
WhiteBlaze will not use any content without consent of the person who posted it.
Simple as that.
AT Troll asked Jack about using his resupply article. It’s great – I used it in planning my thru-hike. But I cringed when I learned that it is 36 pages…I don’t remember it being that long in 2003… which is more than we could fit into a compact handbook. Jack had not responded (until just a few posts ago) so we had no plans to use it. It sounds like it is readily available anyway, and anyone planning to thru-hike ought to give it a look.
There seems to be the misconception that the content of this forum could be readily bottled and sold by hooligan profiteers. I challenge anyone to try it. There are gobs of forums on the web, and I’ve yet to see “The Contents of the Minnesota Curling Club Forum” on any best seller list (or for sale anywhere). Backpacking the AT is nearly as obscure to the general population.
I don’t mean to put down any of the forum discussions. They meet the needs of a very specific audience looking for a bit of very up-to-date advice on titanium trekking poles. It’s not the stuff of books.
Instead of worrying about lifted content, most WhiteBlazers will probably be disappointed to learn that not a single sentence in the book comes from the WB Forum…except for the possibility that someone once wrote; “23.7 Unpaved road leads to GA Hwy. 180.” That is the stuff of which guidebooks are made.
WB forum is an asset because we are a large group of hikers, and when the unpaved road is overgrown with weeds, someone will find out about it and let everyone know. And also, many hikers are sure to let Troll or me know how they think this handbook could be made better...and we will listen.
I'm happy to hear that not ONE word of Jack Tarlin's will be used in WhiteBlaze Pages. Maybe now he'll stop his whining.
Nah.....not likely to happen.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 21:08
Thank you for the unpleasant comment, Roland.
From you, I expect no less. I wonder if you're that unpleasant in person. No, probably not.
That'd take some work.
But a careful reading of all of my posts on this matter reveals that a VERY small part of my concerns over this book involves me or my writings.
My concern is over such things as who is writing this book; where they are getting their information; whether it is proper for this book to call itself a "Whiteblaze" guide, where the money from the book will be going, etc. A very small percentage of my posts on this subject has had anything to do with use of my own writing, so your above comment is pretty stupid, and not merely snotty.
Have you got anything useful to add to this discussion Roland or just cheap shots?
Just askin'.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 21:14
While I appreciate AWOL's post above, I just want to say that I have no recollection whatsoever of Troll's directly asking me for permission to use the Re-Supply article. He sent me an extended letter on 3 September in which he talked about the book and invited me to be a part of it. He said he wanted to talk to me further about this. I responded immediately, told him I was difficult to reach but that if he sent along a phone number and the best time to call, I'd be happy to ring him up and talk at length. He never got back to me, so we never had that talk.
Had I been asked directly for permission to use this article in a for-profit venture such as this forthcoming book, my response would be the exact same as the one I gave today: At present I'm perfectly happy that there are places where people can get this information for free, and this seems perfectly sufficient at present.
Generoll.
Since the book is still in the draft stage, couldn't those who object to their information being included ask to be excluded? Am I being naive about this?
It is my understanding that "facts" can not be copyrighted. Anyone who provided "facts" has no basis for asking them to be excluded, since they do not own those "facts".
Awol2003
09-13-2007, 21:26
Handbooks are just a collection of facts. The real work behind them – the “value added” is to organize the facts into a clear and usable format. This will take a lot of small efforts by many individuals, but ultimately it doesn’t get done unless one (or a few people) devote a lot of time and risk a lot of money to print a marketable handbook.
Most of us have no problem volunteering some time. I’ve taken a week vacation and bought plane ticket to fly off and work on an AT trail crew. Putting this book together (then marketing and distributing it) is a level of effort way beyond that.
A parallel exists with the ATC. There is a large base of volunteers, and a small set of paid employees. Employees must take more responsibility and commit more time than could reasonably be expected without compensation.
AT Troll and I have each put in more than 40 hours a week for the last month, and will continue to do so for who knows how long. We will produce something that will be of great help to hikers. This is similar to what ATC employees do, with a few notable exceptions:
1) We would make more money if we were ATC employees. This is no slight on ATC employee pay; I’m just assuming they make more than minimum wage.
2) If we were ATC employees, our money would not be at risk if our stuff didn’t sell.
3) ATC employees are not on this forum apologizing for being productive and being compensated.
4) The ATC doesn’t donate to us; we donate to them.
warren doyle
09-13-2007, 21:30
It's been sort of fun reading this thread.
Keep up your good work AWOL and Attroll!
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 21:30
Jesse:
It has already been acknowledged that the owners of this Website probably have every right to use any material from this website that they wish.
But one's "right" to do something doesn't MAKE it right.
Also, for that matter, using such "public" information or data (like distances, mileage, elevations, etc.) that appears in other works such as the A.T. Data Book; the Thru-Hikers Companion; and the the Thru-Hikers Companion is also questionably ethical as this data was compiled, measured, and checked by volunteers. To seize this info wholesale and incorporate it into a new for-profit venture seems ethically dubious. But maybe that's just me.
In any case, AWOL has very graciously stated that nobody's material or writings will be used without prior permission, and I think that's great.
I hope that some of the other concerns that have been raised.....and raised, by the way, by people other than me.....will be similarly addressed.
Appalachian Tater
09-13-2007, 21:30
Generoll.
It is my understanding that "facts" can not be copyrighted. Anyone who provided "facts" has no basis for asking them to be excluded, since they do not own those "facts".
What you are saying about facts is true. However, it should be pointed out that what makes Mr. Tarlin's resupply article so useful is his opinion, based on his extensive experience, as to when and where it is BEST to reupply, or eat, or sleep, how long it might take to hike from one place to another, where it might be nice to spend a little extra time, what one might expect to encounter, what alternatives are available and the positives and negatives of each, etc. Calling it a "resupply article" actually underestimates its extent and value.
~
My concern is over such things as who is writing this book; where they are getting their information; whether it is proper for this book to call itself a "Whiteblaze" guide, where the money from the book will be going, etc. A very small percentage of my posts on this subject has had anything to do with use of my own writing, so your above comment is pretty stupid, and not merely snotty.
Have you got anything useful to add to this discussion Roland or just cheap shots?
Just askin'.
Whiteblaze is a business, Jack Tarlin, a privately owned business. And as such, it does not need your approval for the information they include in the handbook. Nor do they need your approval to use the Whiteblaze name (which they own). And the proceeds of the sale of this book isn't anybody's business but the owners.
Troll has said that it cost $250 per month to keep Whiteblaze.com, online. Do the math. That's $3,000 per year. This does not include the purchase price of the server (which Troll recently bought), or the cost of software and updates.
If the proceeds of the handbook, can allow Whiteblaze.com to remain online, then, as one of this site's most active users, you should applaud AWOL and Troll's hard work.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 21:37
My last post obviously crossed with AWOL's.
He is indeed correct when he states that Handbooks are merely collections of facts.
However, my concern is that many of the "facts" that will appear in this book were probably researched and collected by other people, with the intent that the data and material were going to help support publications being offered by non-profit organizations, and not for re-print later by people who wished to offer this data for sale in a for-profit venture.
I'm also troubled with AWOL's comparison of his book to the one put out by the ATC and ALDHA, which is virtually ALL researched and compiled by volunteers, i.e. none of the writers and contributors expects any compensation whatsoever for their work.
So yeah, there's a difference.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2007, 21:41
Whiteblaze is a business, Roland?
Funny, I've never considered it that way.
Instead I thought it was a way for A.T. enthusiasts to help each other thru the free exchange of useful information.
I never thought of this place as a "business."
Silly me.
Awol2003
09-13-2007, 21:53
I spoke with Brian King of the ATC. He was very cordial and cooperative about our project...wished me luck. The data book numbers were given to Wingfoot in the past and they will also be provided to us by the ATC. Brian told me that he was most interested in getting the correct data disseminated.
BTW: The receipt of this data dictates the delivery of the book. We will have mad scramble to get all the figures updated and to get to print ASAP thereafter. We expect to ship in January.
Whiteblaze is a business, Jack Tarlin...
Troll has said that it cost $250 per month to keep Whiteblaze.com, online. Do the math. That's $3,000 per year. This does not include the purchase price of the server (which Troll recently bought), or the cost of software and updates.
Ah, not to get picky but it's whiteblaze.net as in networking, sharing, ideas, etc. Whiteblaze.com would be a business. Still we understand it cost money to run WB, but that's why we donate and volunteer. If it comes to having a pay site, a .com, that's OK too.
That they don't have over 300 members donating $10 each is a shame.
You're right, Sly. It is whiteblaze.net. My mistake.
But try whiteblaze.com, and see where your browser takes you. :D
Alligator
09-13-2007, 22:04
Ah, not to get picky but it's whiteblaze.net as in networking, sharing, ideas, etc. Whiteblaze.com would be a business. Still we understand it cost money to run WB, but that's why we donate and volunteer. If it comes to having a pay site, a .com, that's OK too.
That they don't have over 300 members donating $10 each is a shame.There are 256 donating members listed.
The Old Fhart
09-13-2007, 22:11
Roland-"But try whiteblaze.com, and see where your browser takes you."I recall a while back that ATTroll bought (registered?) the domain name WhiteBlaze.com (so no one else could, it was available) and just had it redirect you to WhiteBlaze.net
I recall a while back that ATTroll bought (registered?) the domain name WhiteBlaze.com (so no one else could, it was available) and just had it redirect you to WhiteBlaze.net
Exactly, TOF. I incorrectly identified this site as whiteblaze.com. Sly alerted me to the mistake, but because .com redirects to .net, I thought I might get partial credit for my incorrect answer. :D
There are 256 donating members listed.
Out of 10,000 or whatever? That's not very good. And not enough to pay the bills. That Troll has to do more work, to make ends meet is a shame.
I'll double my donation next time.
Troll and AWOL, I applaud your efforts to get your new book out. From what I've seen of the draft pages, I like the format. It looks like you've done something like the ATC Data Book and added in town and trail services info, unlike the Companion which took the opposite approach. Should make for a very concise guide, without all the fluff. Now if I could just have NOBO and SOBO editions. Maybe the actual book containig both directions and downloadable PDFs for each direction. Of course, I mean downloadable by people who have already bought the book.
AWOL, Thanks for addressing some of the concerns raised here. I think the book is a good idea and could be very helpful to many. I think we still need further clarification on using the WhiteBlaze name to promote the book. After all, as is defined in the welcome to whiteblaze message, a copy of which is provided below, whiteblaze does not appear to be a commercial enterprise. As stated, "a community of Appalachian Trail enthusiasts" with a purpose stated "for free exchange" would suggest a non-commercial enterprise.
Perhaps there is a way to have separation between commercial and non-commercial aspects of whiteblaze without losing the community upon which whiteblaze was founded. Asking for permission to use content provided by the members is a start. Perhaps further delineation would help assuage the concerns of contributing members and readers alike.
"Welcome to the WhiteBlaze Network!
The WhiteBlaze Network was created by a community of Appalachian Trail enthusiasts. Its intended purpose is to provide a forum for free exchange of ideas about the Appalachian Trail including its history, supporting the trail, hiking the trail, and general issues important to those that enjoy the Appalachian Trail.
This site is not about any one person or their idea of what the Appalachian Trail should be or to dictate to you (the hiker) how the trail is supposed to be used. We leave that for you to decide. Interact with the other members to get a better idea of what others on the trail are thinking and maybe you will get a better idea of what it is all about.
If you have any questions, don't look for an administrator with all the answers, even about how to run this site. Instead, come in and ask the members. Become a member, and you are equally as important as the rest of us.
So come on in and enjoy yourself!"
Regarding domain names with a .net, these were originally defined as ISP networks. Today there are no formal rules or restrictions on the use of .net and they are often considered another .com name.
SGT Rock
09-13-2007, 22:36
Originally WhiteBlaze.net was part of a network of domains. Instead of a one stop shopping site, the originator set up a photo site, a journal link site, the forums, and a couple of others that would all be a part of the "network" of sites.
As for me, hikinghq.com was taken but there wasn't a site up. Since I wanted that name, I went with the open .net.