View Full Version : Baxter State Parks Recieves a 2.7 Million Dollar Donation
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=129447&ac=PHnws
Kirby
Jack Tarlin
08-24-2007, 14:28
Cool. This is very good news. It'll also help defray the costs incurred by people who take advantage of the Park by using its resources without helping to contribute to its upkeep by their avoiding the payment of user fees. :rolleyes:
Yes, the $50 they lose on that every year must be killer to their financial statements. :rolleyes:
Great news!
jmcgarrahan
08-24-2007, 14:57
Yes, the $50 they lose on that every year must be killer to their financial statements. :rolleyes:
Great news!
It seems some just don't get the point. The user fees are minimal. Is it really a hardship, if it helps with the preservation and protection of the outdoors we all claim to love so much?
warren doyle
08-24-2007, 15:32
I'm glad that someone else is sick and tired about it too.
jmcgarrahan
08-24-2007, 15:44
It may be used often, but it is warranted as far as I can tell. And in this particular thread it is very appropriate! I don't think it can be said enough, the fees charged at these parks and wilderness areas, are not in place to bilk the consumer, but to make them more accessible, and in some cases operable for the consumer, I think Jack has to repeat himself because some people still condone not paying these fees. And in my opinion that just isn't right. It sure isn't the kind of thing I want my children to learn.
naturejunkie
08-24-2007, 16:17
Perhaps they can use some of the money to repair the bridge over that deathtrap of a river crossing between Katahdin and Abol Bridge. I don't recall the river, but it is the two twig like branches and one string strung over boulder strewn whitewater. I see bad things happening there at some point if someone doesn't undertake building a new crossing.
It may be used often, but it is warranted as far as I can tell. And in this particular thread it is very appropriate! I don't think it can be said enough.,
You say that now... wait another couple of years of hearing this. :rolleyes:
some people still condone not paying these fees. And in my opinion that just isn't right. It sure isn't the kind of thing I want my children to learn.
To be fair, if you walk in and walk out the same day, no rules were broken. I agree however that it's bad stewardship of the land, and we should try to take that extra step to protect it.
One amazing aspect of this story is that the 2.7 million is expected to grow into almost 10 million! That's an amazing gift to Baxter S.P... Mr. Trautman deserves a trail named after him or something :sun
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 16:42
Cool. This is very good news. It'll also help defray the costs incurred by people who take advantage of the Park by using its resources without helping to contribute to its upkeep by their avoiding the payment of user fees. :rolleyes:
yeah really. there's thousands that do that. roll eyes.
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 16:57
Hostels such as The Place, operate in the red cuz a high number of hikers don't and won't pay the minimum donation asked. Baxter Park is a state run park. A few hikers a year not paying a user fee does absolutely nothing to the bottom line. I'm sure that park runs in the black.
Hey folks! This calls for loud applause and raise a toast! I am glad that someone with means cares so much for the park! I sure wish I had such loot..if I did I'd donate several mil and double the park's size! or more.
As for the user fees.. yeah it would be nice if everthing in life where free but nothing is. I am gettin pretty tired of these folks who complain about a few bucks to go into Baxter.. or 5-8 bucks to camp at a camp site in the greens or the whites.. then go spend 30 or more bucks on Beer and such. The money goes to a good cause.. like good land management, takeing care of human waste, keeping the place looking good. With the hundreds and hundreds of hikers..no make that thousands of hikers who tramp each summer through the greens, whites and Maine Mountains (and by the way..AT thru hikers are but a small minority) it is necessary to have caretakers and trail maintainers.
But I digress. This thread is about Baxter State Park.. and the kindness and generosity of an individual able and willing to support the park.. one of the finest and most special places on the entire AT!
David
The Old Fhart
08-24-2007, 19:10
Ender, you REALLY should read ALDHA's Endangered Services Campaign statement. In part it says: "On the other hand, people who provide services to these hikers have been getting burned, abused and downright ripped off by that small percentage of hikers who ruin it for others by their behavior." and it ends with " Our hope is that hikers will eventually adapt the “Leave No Trace” camping ethic to their activities in towns, not just to their behavior in the woods, and do it without even thinking twice about it. Just as you wouldn’t leave behind a burning campfire, so, too, you wouldn’t want to leave a hostel in ruins because you didn’t think that “no smoking” sign applied to you. Or, more importantly, this endeavor will encourage you to speak out when you see someone else threatening yet another endangered service on the trail."
It is too bad that anyone has to remind another adult that such juvenile illegal behavior is not only unacceptable but harms the ENTIRE® A.T. community. If you are tired of hearing a convicted criminal get called for bragging about his continued atrocious behavior perhaps you'd be better off trying to get him to stop screwing everyone on the trail rather than criticizing the people who continually have to point out this behavior is unacceptable, especially in anyone over 10 years old.
My hat goes off to Mr Trautmann for his generous donation to Baxter State Park. According to the article,this 2.7 million was just a portion of his generous donations to the park, he was also involved in donating toward the recent Katahdin Lake Purchase.
The world has givers and takers, you know which category you belong in.
Maine has been blessed with some outstanding givers and Baxter State Park is a testament of that.
woodsy My hat goes off to Mr Trautmann for his generous donation to Baxter State Park. According to the article,this 2.7 million was just a portion of his generous donations to the park, he was also involved in donating toward the recent Katahdin Lake Purchase.
The world has givers and takers, you know who you are.
Maine has been blessed with some outstanding givers and Baxter State Park is a testament of that.
Hear hear
BTW, it is the givers of the world that make it a better place, not the
takers. :-?
In the future, should you enter Baxter Park without contributing a user fee, you must first bow your head in shame :oand give thanks to all those unselfish individuals who made this special place possible for all to experience.
Yours truly,
Woodsy
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 21:24
Maine residents get to enter free. Out of staters that spend big tourism bucks in Maine have to pay. I hope everybody gave a donation to the other 12 state parks the AT goes through fom Georgia to Maine. I bet none did.
Maine residents have taxes that are outragous, and it is our tax dollars that help keep the park going, it makes sense I, as a resident of this great state, can enter for free. When I enter the park at the end of my hike through the wilderness, I plan to pay any and all fees required by the park, and I certainly hope everyone else does.
Kirby
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 21:30
BTW, it is the givers of the world that make it a better place, not the
takers. :-?
In the future, should you enter Baxter Park without contributing a user fee, you must first bow your head in shame :oand give thanks to all those unselfish individuals who made this special place possible for all to experience.
Yours truly,
Woodsy
Give your $$ to St. Judes Childrens Hospital or the Shriners for adolescent burn victims like we do. Baxter State Park ain't suffering for crissakes.
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 21:30
Maine residents have taxes that are outragous, and it is our tax dollars that help keep the park going, it makes sense I, as a resident of this great state, can enter for free. When I enter the park at the end of my hike through the wilderness, I plan to pay any and all fees required by the park, and I certainly hope everyone else does.
Kirby
whoopee do.
Jack Tarlin
08-24-2007, 21:48
Wolf raised an interesting point when he questioned whether or not thru-hikers helped support State Parks in other Trail states. But he left out the very significant fact that most, if not nearly every other state supports its state parks with State or Federal funds. Baxter is NOT supported in this way; it is run and maintained entirely from user fees as well as a trust fund. In short, if a lot of people who visited Baxter avoided paying for the privilege of their visit, the Park would indeed suffer as a result. In short, the fees pay to help sustain the Park. Finding a way to avoid paying the pittance asked of guests does the opposite of sustaining the Park; in fact, it takes away from maintenance efforts. How anyone can fail to acknowledge this amazes me.
Some speak well of Baxter and speak of Katahdin as a "holy mountain." How curious then, that the same people are so outspoken in doing as little as possible to help support the continued operation and maintenance of Baxter State Park. I guess the place isn't "holy" or important enough to help pay for.
I can't really believe we're having this discussion yet again. It's really simple. To avoid paying for a service while hiking on the A.T. (or anywhere else, for that matter) is petty and selfish). I can't for the life of me see how anyone can think that behaving like this is OK. This sort of meanness and cheapness is essentially indefensible.
Except here at Whiteblaze, where a handful of diehards continually defend it.
What's up with that?? :-?
SGT Rock
08-24-2007, 21:57
Breath Jack. Relax. No need to get this pissed off about something.
Remember this thread is about a good thing, not about how Warren hikes or educates.
Jack Tarlin
08-24-2007, 22:01
Right on, Rock.
I think my last post says it a whole lot better. Too bad tho, that it has to be said so often.
whoopee do.
Arrogant. Selfish. As long as you are happy, then screw everyone else.
2.7 million is a lot of money.
Kirby
Removed - name calling and bashing
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 22:20
Arrogant. Selfish. As long as you are happy, then screw everyone else.
2.7 million is a lot of money.
Kirby
arrogant at times but selfish? hardly. you have no idea what i've given to the AT
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 22:22
Removed the Doo Doo :D
same ole doo doo. it will get locked down eventually.:)
arrogant at times but selfish? hardly. you have no idea what i've given to the AT
I retract the use of the word "selfish", poor word choice on my part. I still think you are arrogant, but I do not know you on a level that can allow me to render you selfish, and I apologize. (this post is 100% serious)
Kirby
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 22:29
I retract the use of the word "selfish", poor word choice on my part. I still think you are arrogant, but I do not know you on a level that can allow me to render you selfish, and I apologize. (this post is 100% serious)
Kirby
apology accepted. i'm serious too. i'm really just an internet tough guy. bark worse than bite kinda thing.:)
same ole doo doo. it will get locked down eventually.:)
Ain't that the truth.
Jack Tarlin
08-24-2007, 22:32
The thread, by the way, is about how Baxter State Park is funded and supported. The fact that some repeatedly come here to Whiteblaze to tell us how to damage the operations and maintenance at Baxter State Park is an entitely legitimate subject for discussion.
That being said, I'll return to the original topic of this thread. This recent gift to Baxter is magnificent. The Park deserves support from ALL of us. Repeat, ALL of us. If you love the Park, you help it. If one is not interested in helping it, then I question one's actual devotion to the place.
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 22:35
it's gonna happen ender.:D
Attention Moderators:
I am requesting this thread that I started be closed because it has no merit anymore.
Kirby
Jack Tarlin
08-24-2007, 22:43
Actually, Kirby, you're a good kid. Whatever happens to this thread, I was glad to hear this news about Baxter and I thank you for telling us about it.
Lone Wolf
08-24-2007, 22:45
yeah, me too. seriously
Me too. It really is excellent news.
TJ aka Teej
08-25-2007, 07:54
The 86-year-old Trautmann, a retired manager in a southern New England manufacturing business, became a park volunteer two decades ago, helping with tasks that included building and maintaining trails.
"When the park needed some new lean-tos, with no money to fund the project, Frank went home to Islesboro, cut and milled trees from his property, prefabbed the lean-tos and took them to the park," Baldacci said. "He then camped at the sites until the lean-tos were assembled."
He leads by example. And he didn't just give 2.7 million - that was over and above the money he raised to help complete the Katahdin Lake purchase.
Bless his heart.:sun
For the life of me I can't see why there wou ld even be a DISCUSSION about whether or not Baxter State Park should be fully supported. The national parks and forests along the AT get federal funding. Baxter state park does not. BSP is one of the finest wild areas on the east coast. BSP should be funded and cared for everyway possible. We as hikers should be falling all over ourselves to care for and support the park. I happily pay the 12 bucks user fee when I go up there on a day trip.
Now what we need is a few more millionaires who could actually expand the park.
David
Lone Wolf
08-25-2007, 09:35
Now what we need is a few more millionaires who could actually expand the park.
David
and to start charging Maine state residents an entrance fee. If Mainers love the park so much they certainly wouldn't mind forking over the cash.
and to start charging Maine state residents an entrance fee. If Mainers love the park so much they certainly wouldn't mind forking over the cash.
I opted to pay the user fee the only time I have been there, and I plan to opt to pay the suer fee when I complete the wilderness. I am looking forward to going back there again, and again, and again, and this donation certainly does help.
Kirby
Jack Tarlin
08-25-2007, 09:51
I disagree with Wolf. Baxter State Park is unique. Governor Baxter's years-long effort to buy the lands for the Park was done in order to present the Park as a gift to the people of Maine. Repeat: It was a gift. I dunno about Lone Wolf's house, but where I come from, when one presents a gift, one doesn't expect to be paid for it. And as has been stated elsewhere, Baxter doesn't get any State or Federal money; it is supported ENTIRELY by user fees and from an endowment/trust fund. This is why people that use the Park (other than Mainers who are specifically exempt) should not flinch from supporting the Park; after all, we're talking about a handful of dollars here, which, considering what one gets from the Park, isn't exactly a whole lot to ask.
Tha Wookie
08-25-2007, 10:29
For the life of me I can't see why there wou ld even be a DISCUSSION about whether or not Baxter State Park should be fully supported. The national parks and forests along the AT get federal funding. Baxter state park does not. BSP is one of the finest wild areas on the east coast. BSP should be funded and cared for everyway possible. We as hikers should be falling all over ourselves to care for and support the park. I happily pay the 12 bucks user fee when I go up there on a day trip.
Now what we need is a few more millionaires who could actually expand the park.
David
That is a thoughtful post. But I just want to throw in my 2 cents about user fees. I don't think there's anything wrong questioning them. In fact, many parks, like Big South Fork in TN, have user fee systems in place that actually cost the park more than it makes. I'm not saying this is the case with Baxter, but I'm just saying that user fees do not always translate into benefits for a park, and it's worth being critical of them.
However, many parks do in fact benefit greatly from user fees. Additionally, they promote an investment on the part of the user, which some say helps to screen out peopl who might trash or otherwise not appreciate the park.
Then there is the whole issue of charging money for an experience in the "wild," which ruins it for some people.
My point is that there are multiple sides to the issue, and people are entitled to express their opinions to it. If the final end that a park needs is money, then maybe there are other routes to get it. To me, user fees (especially at a unique place like baxter, as Jack mentioned) make a lot of sense, but I certainly don't mind hearing other opinions.
I think the key to reducing conflict is not withholding our opinions, but rather being tolerant to others when they differ from our own.:D
Appalachian Tater
08-25-2007, 10:37
Removed - Bashing another member.
Oh Geeeeeeeeeeeeze. Another Spin-off double duty threadf has been opened in place of this one. Mutliple threads on the same subject to appease the frail at heart. This is getting to be ridiculous and a waste of bandwidth.:rolleyes:
I don't think any of the other state parks the AT goes thru charges an entrance fee. Pretty sure I didn't pay one when I hiked.
Baxter is indeed a special case, and I gladly paid. Witnessed a few who tried to stay at the Birches without paying, but a Ranger busted them and some paid up. The other two got pissed and went into Millinockett where they undoubtedly spent a lot more on beer and such--unless they found a way around that too.
As far as having one fee system for state residents and a different one (usually higher) for out-of-staters many states follow this approach. I know when I hiked the Laurel Highlands Trail in PA you had to stay at designated shelter/tentsite groupings and there was a fee. Being from VA, my fee was almost double that the locals paid. No big deal.
The Old Fhart
08-25-2007, 12:18
One very important difference between Baxter State Park and any other state park is that technically the state government doesn't 'own' it at all. If you check the Baxter web site they have a brief description of the park and its operations. I have emphasized a couple of section that are the key to Baxter's uniqueness. It really isn't a state park in any way other than name. As the site states, the land is a trust, for the people of Maine and others to enjoy under the terms that Gov. Baxter spelled out.
*************
"Today, the Park continues to operate as the trust Percival Baxter envisioned. With each Deed of Gift, Governor Baxter attached communications to guide the Baxter State Park Authority and Park Staff, as trustees, in the management of the Park. The Trust Deeds and Communications form the basis for our management and operation of the Park:
To maintain the Park’s natural wild state in accordance with Percival Proctor Baxter's deeds of gifts and conveyances.
To provide a continuing timber harvest from the Scientific Forest Management Area by the application of exemplary and scientific forest management.
To secondarily provide for recreational use and enjoyment of the Park by people in a manner consistent with the Park's natural character.
In addition to the land, Percival Baxter designated a unique and effective triumvirate to manage the Park. By including the Commissioner of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, the Maine Forest Service Director and the State Attorney General, Baxter assembled a capable and effective team to deal with the complex issues that arise within and around the Park. The Baxter State Park Authority holds complete autonomy over all aspects of the management of the Park. Governor Baxter also left trust funds to help support the Park’s operation. These funds are carefully invested and the interest, in combination with revenues from camping, other use fees and the sale of forest products, provides sufficient revenue to operate the Park. This fiscal independence is of vital importance to the Park and protects our ability to always manage the Park in accordance with the donor’s wishes."
**************
It is interesting that the land isn't one big lump but there are many deeds of trust for the several parcels of land. From what I've read Gov. Baxter didn't really have faith that his wishes for the land use would be carried out if he gave (deeded) the land directly to the State of Maine, i.e., the government, but instead set up the many trusts. His reasoning was that if the State wanted to take ownership of the land it would have to contest and fight each and every trust and they couldn't afford to do that.
The forest fire in Baxter in 1977 raised a stir because under the terms of the trust, the roads couldn't be widened nor could heavy equipment be brought in to fight the fire. The terms of the trust won out but there was a lot of controversy over that decision. Eventually the fire was controlled by conventional methods but if you look carefully as you drive along the perimeter road north from Togue Pond, you can still see signs of that large fire.
So the bottom line is the big donation is fantastic but that doesn't mean that relieves any of the rest of us that use the park from supporting it by paying the reasonable fees.
Tim Rich
08-25-2007, 16:07
I was just thinking that some of this money could have gone for wingfoot memorabilia to keep them out of the hands of evil speculators.
warren doyle
08-27-2007, 10:07
BTW, it is the givers of the world that make it a better place, not the
takers. :-?
In the future, should you enter Baxter Park without contributing a user fee, you must first bow your head in shame :oand give thanks to all those unselfish individuals who made this special place possible for all to experience.
Yours truly,
Woodsy
Mr. Woodsy,
My conscience will not allow me to bow my head in shame if I don't contribute financially to Baxter State Park when I 'legally' climb/descend Katahdin at the end of my NOBO, or when I choose to day hike the mountain to and from Abol Bridge. However, I usually lift my head in awe of and reverence for the mountain.
Also, the last time I checked it wasn't the State of Maine that created Katahdin.
Happy free trails!
Warren
PS: Tha Wookie (post #42): You are still one of the more reasonable and tolerant WB posters. I'm sure there are many more like you out there and this faith gives me hope.
Jack Tarlin
08-27-2007, 14:11
No, it wasn't the State of Maine that created Katahdin.
But it was Governor Baxter that created that Park.
Without his efforts, this land would be private property. The public would have limited, and perhaps NO access to it. The area that comprises the Park would have been lumbered; pillaged, developed.
In other words, no "happy free trails" there. Maybe none at all.
It does not surprise me in the slightest to hear a long-time free-loader admit that he feels no shame when he uses this Park for free, refusing to support its maintenance with even a handful of dollars.
That's what the word "shameless" is all about.
Alledgedly having "awe" and "reverence" for a beautiful place that one has no desire to help maintain and protect is a pretty ridiculous contention. Either one is interested in preserving such a place, and one does one's expected bit by supporting it, or one doesn't.
But you can't have it both ways.
And you know what? When someone comes here and brags about not supporting this place, and encourages to do likewise, well, I'm not really much interested in hearing what his "conscience" will or will not permit.
Speaking for myself, my conscience would trouble me if I willfully chose NOT to do my part to help maintain Baxter State Park, and it's really trouble me if I spend three and a half decades behaving like this.
But I guess that's just me.
and to start charging Maine state residents an entrance fee. If Mainers love the park so much they certainly wouldn't mind forking over the cash.
Percival Baxter during his life time opposed groups doing things for his park. When AMC volunteers built the bunk house at Chimney Pond, he returned the money they had cost to AMC.
When he died he left much of his legacy to the park so that it would not be beholden to the Legislature for funding. His gift, he said, was for the people of Maine, not the state of Maine.
He specifically chose the Commissioner of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, the Forest Commissioner (now the director of the Bureau of Parks and Lands) and the Attorney General to run his park, rather than the regular state Bureau of Parks and Recreation because he didn't want Baxter to be an ordinary state park, subject to the whims of the political process. RaTHER he wanted a unique forever wild area in which the people of the state would be welcome as visitors, but where the emphasis was to be on protection of the mountains, lakes, streams and wildlife.
Maine residents are not charged a fee because that is the way Baxter wanted it to be during his lifetime. and because his writings make it clear that is how he wanted it to continue after his death.
His three trustees have not always followed his direction, but for the most part Baxter's legacy continues.
Weary
Fine post Jack..but you are almost too kind.
Yes Govenor Baxter did create the park. But where it not for him.. the whole place would to day be a logging disaster. clear cut.
I made a trip up there this summer and spoke with a ranger in the visitor center. She told me that there was logging right up to and up the mountain sides until the land was removed a few decades ago. Infact..Baxter tried to give the land to the state but the state would not take it. They wanted no part of it due to paper company opposition. Baxter had to Bequeeth (is that the term?) the land to the state in his will after he had quietly bought it up for himself.
Today the park does not take any state of federal funding. It subsists soley on user fees and donations. Whether one hikes 2000 + miles to get to Katahdin or just go for the day.. one should care just as much that the land remains wild.
To say you revere and worship the mountain but don't care about the park it resides in and that protects it, is to be hypocritical at best!
What if we had not more millionaires to give big sums of money? what if people avoided paying user fees regularly (stealthing etc). How long do you think this wonderful peace of real estate would remain the paradise that it is?
David
David
Jack Tarlin
08-27-2007, 19:02
Were the Park not supported by those who use it, (at least most of them), it'd be very difficult for it to remain open and to continue Governor Baxter's mission. How anyone can profess one's love for the place, and then freely acknowledge that one goes out of their way NOT to support its care and maintenance is a mystery to me.
This is precisely the point I've been trying to make. Thanx for your comments, David.
deleted post due to its uselessness
The Old Fhart
08-27-2007, 20:56
Mr. Woodsy,
My conscience will not allow me to bow my head in shame if I don't contribute financially to Baxter State Park when I 'legally' climb/descend Katahdin at the end of my NOBO, or when I choose to day hike the mountain to and from Abol Bridge.
Warren'legally'?:confused:
Were the Park not supported by those who use it, (at least most of them), it'd be very difficult for it to remain open and to continue Governor Baxter's mission. How anyone can profess one's love for the place, and then freely acknowledge that one goes out of their way NOT to support its care and maintenance is a mystery to me.
This is precisely the point I've been trying to make. Thanx for your comments, David.
Except the post was a bit wrong. Baxter did not "bequeeth" his park to the state. He offered it to the Maine Legislature piece by piece over 30 years or so.
Each time the Legislature said yes. Baxter's scheme -- to make a dozen Maine Legislatures confirm his desire to make this a forever wild park.
The land that Baxter had accumulated over the decades was parcel by parcel given to the people of Maine though the people's elected Legislature.
Baxter's plan was simple. He didn't trust one Legislature carrying out his plans but he figured if a dozen did so, it would be difficult for the developers and profiteers to lobby for changes to his vision.
Well the plan has worked fairly well in the decades since Baxter's death, though machines (snowmobiles) each winter malign his vision. Baxter consented to one snowmobile for the park director. Now there is the director's machine and several thousand more.
Periodically folks argue that more bridges and more facilities are needed to benefit "old people" and veterans. Many argue that under national handicapped access laws it is illegal to have trails so primitive that handicapped folks can't use them to reach the summit of Katahdin, and that even elderly veterans are now finding it too difficult to reach their favorite fishing streams.
So far his trustees have mostly stood firm against this descecration of wildness. But eternal vigilance is needed if Baxter is to remain a forever wild place. I am saddened by the repeated compromises that White Blaze members seem to be willing to promote in their desire for an "easy" trail.
The omly thing Baxter bequeathed to the state was a trust fund that would make it unnecessary for the Legislature to appropriate annual operating funds. Sadly, even part of that legacy was usurped within a few years of his death to pay nearly a million dollars to a big corporation for worthless logging rights, proving again that if you have surplus money spend it for the things you believe in, rather than waiting for heirs to do so.
Weary