View Full Version : Follow up from Straight Forward
There is currently a discussion in "Strait Forward" regarding what to use to clean water. Jack and others have pointed out that poor hygene is probably responsible for much more GI problems that bad water. I agree 100% with this. Some have suggested using Purell or similar hand sanitizers, again this is something I have started doing. Now to the reason for this post:
This past weekend, I presented an introductory backpacking session for a Scouting Powder Horn class. This is a program to introduce Scout leaders to various outdoor activities. During the discussion, one of the participants said that he had recently read a warning about the excessive use of hand sanitizers. According to his information, by repeatedly applying the sanitizer, a residue is left on the hand, and it can later be transferred to your food or drink. Once this residue is re-hydrated, and ingested, it can cause severe GI problems by killing off digestive bacteria within the body. Similar to what prolonged antibiotic use can do.
My initial response is one of severe skepticism. I was under the impression that the active ingredient in these hand sanitizers was alcohol which would not be re-activated by adding water. His explanation was that the alcohol is only used to cause rapid drying of the sanitizer, but in actuality, other ingredients are present that can be re-activated.
Has anyone else heard anything about this? Any physicians/pharmacists out there want to weigh in?
Decided to start a new thread so as not to go off topic on the other.
Well, they might be correct for a sanitizer that uses an antibiotic as one of its active ingredients, but as far as I know the only active ingredient in them that kills germs is the alcohol. The bottle of Purell in my bathroom only lists alcohol as an active ingredient. And the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no03/05-0955.htm) only talks about ethanol being the important factor.
So I'd say you are right to be skeptical.
My .02:sun
Skidsteer
08-28-2007, 19:20
Ingredients in Purell Hand Sanitizer:
Active Ingredients: Ethyl Alcohol (62%) (Purpose: Antimicrobial)
Inactive Ingredients: Water (Aqua), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Glycerin, Isopropyl Myristate, Propylene Glycol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Aminomethylpropanol, Carbomer, Fragrance (Parfum), Blue 1 (CI 42090), Yellow 5 (CI 19140)
If alcohol Kills off the flora in the digestive tract, I'm in deep trouble.
wrongway_08
08-28-2007, 19:24
NO NO NO!
What happened is a child got into a bottle of it, covered herself in the junk and some of it got in her mouth. The parents flipped out, took her to the hospital and found out the child would end up with a really bad belly ache.
Some idiot sent out a e-mail sayn the kid licked her hand after using it in a normal manner and got sick from it that way.
As long as a backpacker doesnt carry the gallon size with him on the trail and then leaves it at a shelter for some one to manage to drink it all with diner, it is safe. :) :) :)
Skidsteer
08-28-2007, 19:30
NO NO NO!
What happened is a child got into a bottle of it, covered herself in the junk and some of it got in her mouth. The parents flipped out, took her to the hospital and found out the child would end up with a really bad belly ache.
Some idiot sent out a e-mail sayn the kid licked her hand after using it in a normal manner and got sick from it that way.
As long as a backpacker doesnt carry the gallon size with him on the trail and then leaves it at a shelter for some one to manage to drink it all with diner, it is safe. :) :) :)
Ah. Myth busted. (http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/sanitizer.asp)
wrongway_08
08-28-2007, 19:45
As long as they use it in the normal manner, they can lick their hands all they want, it wont rehydrate and kill them, or get them sick.
Just dont let them have a glass of it with dinner. :)
wrt hand sanitizers - I used to use Purell but I switched to just using 91% rubbing alcohol (isopro) - cheap and it is a backup fuel for my stove if I run out of Heet. Since I only use the sanitizer 2 or 3 times a day I don't need the skin conditioners that are in Purell.
Gray Blazer
08-29-2007, 10:45
If alcohol Kills off the flora in the digestive tract, I'm in deep trouble.
Very funny.:D I use alcohol wipes on my overnite trips. I use them to clean my cooking utensils. I don't boil water to sterilize the cooking stuff, I just wipe it out clean with the alcohol wipes. Haven't gotten sick yet. I used them at my big hiker feed 2 years ago and I didn't hear of anyone getting sick (it was probably hard for any germ to live at 10 - 20 degrees anyways). I saw backpack size alcohol wipes for kids at our local CVS or you can make your own.
The Weasel
08-29-2007, 11:55
Lyle:
As a Scout Leader, there are different standards (I know; still active after 30 years). If you and I are backpacking, hand sanitizers might be OK. If we get sick, it's our our damn fault.
But when we're leading a bunch of kids, it's a different story. Purifying water and using soap to wash up is simply essential. In terms of the amount of soap, I've run 9 day trips with 10 people (2 adults, 8 Scouts) with the amount of dish soap that fits in a hotel shampoo bottle; a few drops is all that's needed in one pot of water or on a sponge, then used for all. The alternative, though, is real, and not so much from giardia (which is a real threat) as from uncleaned cooking gear causing food poisoning.
Additionally, if you don't clean cook gear, you're gonna draw animals. Worst of all are the "mini bears" (mice, chipmunks) who will destroy packs by gnawing through fabric to get at the slightest food smelll. Other varmints (even birds) will cause problems, and, yes, bears will follow food smells. (Hiker near me out here in Cal had about $1,000 in gear trashed by a black bear that rousted him in a campsite one afternoon because of food smells on gear.)
By the way, germs live just fine at 20 degrees. And once they get in the gut, they live even better at 98.6.
Take soap, purify water, when you're leading someone else's kids.
The Weasel
>--WWW-->
dixicritter
08-29-2007, 12:50
At my youngest child's school they ask for bottles of hand sanitizer at the beginning of the school year for the classrooms. I don't see the big deal here honestly, if it's ok for schools to request it, why not use it in scout troops?
It has already been established that the stuff isn't harmful unless they drink a bottle of it.
taildragger
08-29-2007, 12:56
mmmmmmmm sweet delicious purell
Lyle:
But when we're leading a bunch of kids, it's a different story. Purifying water and using soap to wash up is simply essential.
The Weasel
>--WWW-->
Actually, Weasel is right about the importance of using soap, not just hand sanitizer alone. Hand sanitizers are worthless when it comes to removing dirt and other grime from hands and cooking pots. And boyscouts do tend to get dirtier than most people.:D
Gray Blazer
08-29-2007, 13:18
Lyle:
Additionally, if you don't clean cook gear, you're gonna draw animals. Worst of all are the "mini bears" (mice, chipmunks) who will destroy packs by gnawing through fabric to get at the slightest food smelll. Other varmints (even birds) will cause problems, and, yes, bears will follow food smells. (Hiker near me out here in Cal had about $1,000 in gear trashed by a black bear that rousted him in a campsite one afternoon because of food smells on gear.)
The Weasel
>--WWW-->
Yeah, when I was in the BSA, we had to boil the water for cleaning up and all that. On my backpacking trip I use plasticware from Wendy's and one large cup that I cook and eat everything from (you can see it hanging on the outside of my backpack in my WB pic gallery-oh, no another shameless attempt to get folks to view my gallery....Oh, the humanity....:rolleyes: ). Anyway, for myself, I contend that the alcohol wipes not only sterilize my eating stuff, but also gets rid of the food odors. Mice and chipmunks get in my backpack anyway cuz that's where I keep my food. I had a tent that I made sure we never brought food or candy or even chewing gum inside of and a bear still tried to get in with us one night. If a bear trashed my equipment that would only be about $100 dollars worth. Just sayin'. It might take more than that to replace it. I can't imagine having one thousand dollars of equipment out in the woods or on my back (ask Sarge, he'll tell you I'm a trash hiker or hiker trash or whatever). Hi Dixie.
dixicritter
08-29-2007, 13:28
(ask Sarge, he'll tell you I'm a trash hiker or hiker trash or whatever). Hi Dixie.
He says hiker trash. Hi GB. :)
Rain Man
08-29-2007, 13:39
If alcohol Kills off the flora in the digestive tract, I'm in deep trouble.
Don't you mean "fauna"?
Rain:sunMan
.
Gray Blazer
08-29-2007, 13:43
Don't you mean "fauna"?
Rain:sunMan
.
Skidsteer has killed off the flora and fauna in his digestive track.:D :banana
Skidsteer
08-29-2007, 14:06
Don't you mean "fauna"?
Rain:sunMan
.
No. I meant flora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora). :)
Skidsteer
08-29-2007, 14:07
Skidsteer has killed off the flora and fauna in his digestive track.:D :banana
No tapeworms here! :)
Toolshed
08-29-2007, 15:41
Lyle,
I used to lead commercial trips as well as being a scout leader and a past tripleader for ADK and AMC. I have always recommended soap and water be the primary course to clean oneself. Especially with kids. They have to understand that soap and water removes germs through mechanical means and they have to really wash their hands and wrists, thoroughly getting between fingers and doing the fingernails.
While I like alcohol/gel sanitizers and see a place for them*, I find too many times folks take a dab (especially kids) swirl it around their hands once or twice and expect them to be clean - germs may be killed, but sometimes the hands are still filthy. This cleaning laziness then transfers over to plain soap and water and without the mechanical action, hands simply are not clean.
*The place I see for sanitizers is after peeing or pooping. Since you are not near a water source (hopefully) a small bottle in your TP bag works great until you can get to soap and water and thoroughly clean your hands.
I'd rather they stay with soap and water and learn to scrub thoroughly
Ok,
Just to clarify. I had not endorsed the use of hand sanitizers for the Scouts. It was just a topic that was brought up in the discussion, and a problem that I hadn't heard about. I was not advocating using these sanitizers in place of or even in addition to normal sanitation when dealing with a group.
I was just wondering if anyone here on WB had heard anything about this supposed problem, and apparantly some of you had and clarified that it was just an unfounded rumor. This is what I had first suspected. I fully agree, soap and water are the primary means to sanitation. I carry a small bottle of Purell in the baggy with my TP for a quick sanitizing when needed.
Sounds like we are all on the same page here, and I'm confident we are right!!!
Thanks to all for their input, happy hiking...
Toolshed
08-29-2007, 16:09
Ok,
Just to clarify. I had not endorsed the use of hand sanitizers for the Scouts. It was just a topic that was brought up in the discussion, and a problem that I hadn't heard about. I was not advocating using these sanitizers in place of or even in addition to normal sanitation when dealing with a group.
I was just wondering if anyone here on WB had heard anything about this supposed problem, and apparantly some of you had and clarified that it was just an unfounded rumor. This is what I had first suspected. I fully agree, soap and water are the primary means to sanitation. I carry a small bottle of Purell in the baggy with my TP for a quick sanitizing when needed.
Sounds like we are all on the same page here, and I'm confident we are right!!!
Thanks to all for their input, happy hiking...
You are correct. Sorry for Thread Drift.
Passionphish
08-29-2007, 23:17
Just my two cents. My mother in law, who is a nurse of way too many years. Says that there is nothing wrong with hand sanitizer for daily use. Aside from some scary studies that are beginning to show an increase in bacterial resistance to antibiotics due to these sanitizers. I personally subscribe to denatured alcohol or 91% rubbing alcohol. That and soap. My Mother in Law also taught me the PROPER way to wash your hands and arms. It takes a minute or two, let me tell ya.
But all in all it comes down to how clean you keep yourself from what you spill to how you clean up that spill. Period. No matter what you use to do the cleaning.
Again, just my 2 cents.
DSoMT,
No problem with thread drift, it's a natural part of a discussion.
I was just getting the feeling that people were under the impression that I was proposing replacing soap and water with hand sanitizers. Wasn't just your post that touched on this point. I just wanted to clarify that I agree it is not a replacement.
Anyway, drift on...
dixicritter
08-30-2007, 09:39
I also agree it isn't a replacement, but don't agree it shouldn't be mentioned at all. Yes soap and water should be taught as the primary source of hygiene when dealing with children, however, they also need to know the proper way to use the hand sanitizers too. Just my opinion. :)
Blue Jay
08-30-2007, 14:47
Damn, you scared me. I thought you were closing a hand sanitizer thread.