View Full Version : Town listings in books
This question is for thru hikers that have used data books.
I doing some research on some issues and have a question for past and current thru hikers. As I said this question is for those that carried a book or just the pages from a book on your hike.
Keeping in mind the weight, size and space the book will take up whether is was the Data Book, The Companion or The Thru Hikers Handbook and you were coming into a trail town. If you want to keep the books as small as possible and as light as possible but wanted to make sure it had all the essential data. What were the things that you thought should be listed the most for Trail towns?
Here are some of the essentials that I thought of and I was wondering if I was missing anything or would any of these be something that you think should not be in the books
Hostels
Lodging
Restaurants
Shuttles
Food re-supplies
Outfitter
Laundry
Phone
Post Office
Perhaps Library should be included? I also liked when a general layout for the town was given, although there were many cases where the towns were small enough where its not needed.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 07:17
Here is my opinion based on hiking into a few strange towns
1. Hostels - dates they are open, and cost.
2. Lodging - cost
3. Restaurants - Unless there is some place that is special, don't list them. A hiker will find these on their own.
4. Shuttles - phone number and price
5. Food re-supplies - unless there is some special info, I only need to know when they are open.
6. Outfitter - when they are open and if this is a "real outfitter"
7. Laundry - I just need to know if one exists in town.
8. Phone - if you come to a special trail crossing where there is a phone - then yes. Otherwise do not list phones.
9. Post Office - days and times open.
10. Library - days, times, and internet connections
All that said, the other thing that does help is a strip map of town with locations of where things are in relation to one another. So a map that shows me if I cross highway 666 and take a right there will be a hotel and to the right front will be the post office and down the street is the grocery with a laundry mat next to it. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. BUT in the case of a guide I would put all the strip maps on individual pages (you could theoretically put more than one town strip map per page) in the back of the book and not in-line with the description. This way a hiker that only wants to know the data and can find stuff themselves can opt not to carry it, while a hiker that does want to have the pages can tear out the pages to carry with the section of the book they decide to hike with.
As far as listing restaurants, I might disagree with Rock unless AYCE is special. I would like the AYCE restaurants to be listed. When I was doing a section hike through Hiwassee, a gut who was just passing through picked me up and drove me into town. The only reason we made it to the Hiwassee Inn was because of the map. Had I wanted to go eat first, and my generous driver offered to drop me off anywhere I wanted, I could show him the restaurant on the map.
Gray Blazer
08-31-2007, 11:42
I would like the AYCE restaurants to be listed. When I was doing a section hike through Hiwassee, a gut who was just passing through picked me up and drove me into town.
A gut would be the best person(?) to show you the AYCE places I would assume.;)
Places with internet access are good to list. Banks/ATMs. A crude map of town is extremely useful. One thing Yogi's maps include is an idea of the scale, such as "Distance from Main St. to PO is .5 miles."
Marta/Five-Leaf
A gut would be the best person(?) to show you the AYCE places I would assume.;)
Heck yeah! I tried a liver once, but that just kept getting me dropped off at bars and I was hungry.
Alligator
08-31-2007, 11:59
I might be able to help you with creating maps Attroll. It would depend on how many towns you want and how difficult it is for me to geocode the addresses. They would be to scale. I'd have to do one town first to get an idea of the time requirement.
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 12:51
What is the purpose of all this "research?"
Sure sounds to me like someone's working on a new Guidebook, along the lines of the Companion or the Handbook.
Is this your personal project, Troll? Or is it to be a Whiteblaze project?
And if it's a Whiteblaze project, i.e. if it'll be published under the Whiteblaze auspices or name, is this something we should be doing, i.e. is there really a need for this book? Is it in the Trail's best interest or WB's best interest to publish a work that competes with an already existing one put out by ATC and ALDHA? Wouldn't it be better for people to apply their energy and help the existing book in order to improve it, rather than compete with it? ATC and ALDHA are perenially cash-strapped; with the apparent absence of Dan Bruce's Thru Hikers Handbook next year, these organizations are in a great position to have a banner year with Companion sales in 2008. This opportunity would surely be comprised by the sudden appearance of a new guidebook.
Should Whiteblaze be doing this?
I'd like to hear other opinions on this.
Lone Wolf
08-31-2007, 12:55
The Companion can be improved greatly. If Whiteblaze can come up with a similar, smaller guide then I'm all for it. Gotta have choices.
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 13:19
Couldn't agree more, Wolf, there's always room for improvement. Which is why I hope more folks, especially recently finished thru-hikers, offer their services to the editors of the 2008 Thru-Hikers Companion. I see nothing wrong with "competition" in the free market; I'm just not sure there's a need for this new work; I'm not sure Whiteblaze should be doing it; I absolutely have reservations about material from this website being used in, or adapted, for a book that will compete with the ATC and ALDHA and compromise their book sales; and I think this is a subject worth discussing.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 13:31
Couldn't agree more, Wolf, there's always room for improvement. Which is why I hope more folks, especially recently finished thru-hikers, offer their services to the editors of the 2008 Thru-Hikers Companion. I see nothing wrong with "competition" in the free market; I'm just not sure there's a need for this new work; I'm not sure Whiteblaze should be doing it; I absolutely have reservations about material from this website being used in, or adapted, for a book that will compete with the ATC and ALDHA and compromise their book sales; and I think this is a subject worth discussing.
What Jack said. I don't want to cut into the money of the organizations that support the trail. Sort of like shooting yourself in the foot if you end up hurting the organizations that support the trail.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 13:34
As far as listing restaurants, I might disagree with Rock unless AYCE is special. I would like the AYCE restaurants to be listed. When I was doing a section hike through Hiwassee, a gut who was just passing through picked me up and drove me into town. The only reason we made it to the Hiwassee Inn was because of the map. Had I wanted to go eat first, and my generous driver offered to drop me off anywhere I wanted, I could show him the restaurant on the map.
IMO AYCE qualifies as special.
Places with internet access are good to list. Banks/ATMs. A crude map of town is extremely useful. One thing Yogi's maps include is an idea of the scale, such as "Distance from Main St. to PO is .5 miles."
Marta/Five-Leaf
ATM locations shown? Maybe. Seems like you can't go anywhere these days without tripping over one. But I suppose there could be times when they are hard to find.
~ I absolutely have reservations about material from this website being used in, or adapted, for a book that will compete with the ATC and ALDHA and compromise their book sales; and I think this is a subject worth discussing.
I'm not sure I understand your concern, Jack.
Is that you don't support the inclusion of information posted by WB members, in a guidebook to be produced by WhiteBlaze?
Or is it that you object to WhiteBlaze producing a guidebook, that might compete with ATC/ALDHA publications?
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 13:42
It should also be pointed out that Whiteblaze presently enjoys very cordial relations with both ATC and ALDHA......several ALDHA Board members, such as Jester and Blister Sister, are regular and valued contributors here. We've also enjoyed many useful and informative posts from Laurie Potteiger, who runs the information services desk for the ATC in Harpers Ferry. Many regulars here at Whiteblaze are members of either ATC, ALDHA, or frequently both organizations, and take part in their activities. I think there are a lot of folks who'd be made uncomfortable by seeing Whiteblaze competing with these organizations for readers of a Trail Guidebook; a new Guidebook would indeed cost these fine organizations money they can ill afford to lose; and I think the new book could potentially damage relations between these groups and Whiteblaze, relations which are now excellent.
Other questions.....who'd be the author of this book? And who would be chosen to edit it? Would they be former thru-hikers speaking from their own experiences, or would they be relying on information gleaned from others, including from participants here on WB? And where would the revenues from such a book go?
All worth thinking about.
Lone Wolf
08-31-2007, 13:50
Speaking of the Companion, are any of you field editors? I am for Damascus and I haven't heard a word from ALDHA or the new editor for 08, Leslie Mass. I need her address to send updates which are due tomorrow. e-mail hasn't been answered. Anybody have it?
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 13:51
Roland:
I thought I made my concerns pretty clear above. But since you asked:
1. I don't think WB should produce a book that would be in direct
competition......in a very small market.....with ATC or ALDHA.
2. I'm uncomfortable with any of my own contributions here being used,
or being adapted for use in such a book. This was not why I sent
along my contributions over the years. I suspect others might feel
likewise. To be clear, I'm not remotely interested in any personal
gain or compensation for any of my Whiteblaze posts; I'm just not sure I'd
want to see them appear in, or be used for a work whose very existence
I question the need for.
3. I'm curious as to who will write this book, who will edit it, what their
hiking background and qualifications are, who will own the rights to the
book, and who will have control over any subsequent revenues from it,
and what that money will be used for. I also have doubts about whether
or not this book will help Whiteblaze's reputation in the long-distance
hiking community, or will possibly damage it. In brief, a good Guidebook
will hurt the ATC and ALDHA; a poor one will only hurt Whiteblaze.
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 13:53
Wolf:
Try Lnmass at hotmail dot com.
(In case anyone's wondering, I always intentionally spell out personal E-mail addresses when posting them here; it cuts down on the Spam they receive).
Speaking of the Companion, are any of you field editors? I am for Damascus and I haven't heard a word from ALDHA or the new editor for 08, Leslie Mass. I need her address to send updates which are due tomorrow. e-mail hasn't been answered. Anybody have it?
I'm supposed to be covering for Sly this year. My emails aren't being answered either.
Marta/Five-Leaf
Lone Wolf
08-31-2007, 14:00
hmmm. when cindy was editor she was on the ball and sent out many reminders months before the sept. 1st deadline. i've heard nothing from no one.
1. I don't think WB should produce a book that would be in direct
competition......in a very small market.....with ATC or ALDHA.
Many have stated that they used the ATC/ALDHA publications for planning purposes, but carried Wingfoot's book, because they preferred the format. Until someone produces a guidebook that satisfies those who prefer Wingfoot's guide, there will be a void in the market. That void could be filled by ATC/ALDHA, if they choose to repond to the market and reformat their publication, or it could be filled by WhiteBlaze or someone else.
2. I'm uncomfortable with any of my own contributions here being used,
or being adapted for use in such a book. This was not why I sent
along my contributions over the years. I suspect others might feel
likewise. ~
Our opinions differ, here.
All posts to WB become the property of WB. I bet many members would be happy if their contributions were included in a WB publication.
3. I'm curious as to who will write this book, who will edit it, what their
hiking background and qualifications are, who will own the rights to the
book, and who will have control over any subsequent revenues from it,
and what that money will be used for. ~
That's a question for the owner(s) of WB.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 15:05
Many have stated that they used the ATC/ALDHA publications for planning purposes, but carried Wingfoot's book, because they preferred the format. Until someone produces a guidebook that satisfies those who prefer Wingfoot's guide, there will be a void in the market. That void could be filled by ATC/ALDHA, if they choose to repond to the market and reformat their publication, or it could be filled by WhiteBlaze or someone else.
Our opinions differ, here.
All posts to WB become the property of WB. I bet many members would be happy if their contributions were included in a WB publication.
That's a question for the owner(s) of WB.
I'm not sure if that is totally true. Recently did some research on liability on libel/slander. US courts have ruled that individuals that post to a forum are responsible for what they say - not the website or the administrators. If that holds true, I would think that someone that posts something here maintains some rights to what happens to what they say since they are also the ones that bear responsibility.
Think of the inverse. If we owned the intellectual rights for anything said here, then we could also be held accountable if someone said something untrue and we allowed it to remain up on the site since we now own it and bear responsibility to make sure those facts stated in the post are true.
Now, for information purposes, say we had culled the forum for data to make the listing for Erwin, then did some phone calls and checked some other sources like the Yellow Pages to get the data - well that would be ok since we only used them for sources. But lets say we decided to include Jack Tarlin's Resupply article without getting his permission to transfer his stuff from electronic media to print media, we would be in violation of Jack's Copyright of the material since his initial permission was only granted for one form of media.
I ain't a lawyer, but I am going off what seems to be right on my moral compass, not off any specialized experience. In my book, morally right is something you have to think of when it comes to reputation and trust, and I don't want to see WhiteBlaze loose that for a few extra dollars.
I'm not sure if that is totally true. Recently did some research on liability on libel/slander. US courts have ruled that individuals that post to a forum are responsible for what they say - not the website or the administrators. If that holds true, I would think that someone that posts something here maintains some rights to what happens to what they say since they are also the ones that bear responsibility.
Think of the inverse. If we owned the intellectual rights for anything said here, then we could also be held accountable if someone said something untrue and we allowed it to remain up on the site since we now own it and bear responsibility to make sure those facts stated in the post are true.
Now, for information purposes, say we had culled the forum for data to make the listing for Erwin, then did some phone calls and checked some other sources like the Yellow Pages to get the data - well that would be ok since we only used them for sources. But lets say we decided to include Jack Tarlin's Resupply article without getting his permission to transfer his stuff from electronic media to print media, we would be in violation of Jack's Copyright of the material since his initial permission was only granted for one form of media.
I ain't a lawyer, but I am going off what seems to be right on my moral compass, not off any specialized experience. In my book, morally right is something you have to think of when it comes to reputation and trust, and I don't want to see WhiteBlaze loose that for a few extra dollars.
Rock,
My previous post referenced the WB User Agreement (http://whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=agreement).
Copyright notice
All content posted on the message boards and gallery of WhiteBlaze is the exclusive intellectual property of WhiteBlaze. Copyright ownership resides in that content by WhiteBlaze and the Company is free to use any of the content as they wish. Anyone other than WhiteBlaze seeking to reprint, republish, or reproduce content posted on the WhiteBlaze message boards must receive the express written permission from the Webmaster of the WhiteBlaze forum in which the content was posted. By posting on the WhiteBlaze message boards you are agreeing to the above and relinquishing all copyright to the contents of the post(s) to WhiteBlaze.If this notice is no longer reflective of the views of the owner(s), perhaps it should be updated.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 15:47
That may be what we said in that, but I don't know how enforcable it is. Add to that, I have a feeling there is what is legal, and what is right.
SGT Rock
08-31-2007, 15:49
I thnk the other issue is how much will this stiffle contribution. Here was a discussion about this in the past: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11147&highlight=print+whiteblaze+articles
~ Add to that, I have a feeling there is what is legal, and what is right.
I certainly share that view. I have several posts advocating for giving credit, when credit is due.
If WB does produce a guidebook (electronic or print) which includes contributions from its members, it should recognize the contributions of such members.
Many have stated that they used the ATC/ALDHA publications for planning purposes, but carried Wingfoot's book, because they preferred the format. Until someone produces a guidebook that satisfies those who prefer Wingfoot's guide, there will be a void in the market.
The current Companion format is very similar to WF's book, but rather than having the data (mileages) up front for the entire trail, it's before each section. Without WF's book hikers will be fine using the Companion.
Jack Tarlin
08-31-2007, 16:27
Roland:
You right about at least one thing. Our opinions differ.
Your posts haven't mentioned or touched on my concerns over the propriety of Whiteblaze competing with ATC and ALDHA over the market for an A.T. Guidebook. I think these concerns are valid and important.
Nor did your comments address my concern over who would author this work; who would edit it; what their background is; what their A.T. hiking credentials may be; or who would directly benefit from it. I think these are all important things to think about. (This can be discussed later, but personally, I'm not sure that ANY guidebook aimed at thru-hikers should be authored by someone who hasn't hiked the entire Trail; a "How To" book by a non thru-hiker would immediately have trouble advertising itself as an "authoritative" work).
It is especially important because it's starting to look like posts from Whiteblaze members and their direct input and thoughts will be a part of this publication; anyone who doubts this can check out the very first post on this thread. If I'm mistaken, and this "research" is for another purpose altogether, well that's fine, but it'd really help to know more about what's going on here, which I suspect will happen when we hear back from Troll, who at this time is probably unaware that this discussion is even going on.
Finally, in regard to the copyright issue, Roland, I'm aware that Whiteblaze has a user agreement. But just because something CAN be done, it doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. Taking information that was offered in good faith for free, and then selling it later, if that is indeed what is being contemplated, is not something that everyone here is going to agree with.
But this is all speculation, we don't really know what's going on here. Until I know more, out of respect for Troll and anyone else who may be working on this project or contemplating it, I'm going to give this thread a rest. Hopefully, we'll know more about this soon, including the answers to some of the questions that have been raised.
Alligator
08-31-2007, 16:40
Good thought Jack. Don't jump down Attroll's throat before he has a chance to discuss his ideas:p.
Good thought Jack. Don't jump down Attroll's throat before he has a chance to discuss his ideas:p.
I second that, Allligator.
Jack, during the last few years, there are countless examples of AT Troll giving selflessly to this website, to the hiking community, to ATC and to ALDHA. I don't expect he will do anything to hurt either organization. Knowing AT Troll, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the proceeds of the proposed guidebook would be donated to ATC.
Let's not jump to conclusions.
Pardon the brief tangent...... Do I even need a guidebook? I've read through Jack's resupply tips a few times and read enough trail journals to almost have the town stops order down pat, plus I'm only traveling the southern portion of the trail. Whadda ya'll think?
Pardon the brief tangent...... Do I even need a guidebook? I've read through Jack's resupply tips a few times and read enough trail journals to almost have the town stops order down pat, plus I'm only traveling the southern portion of the trail. Whadda ya'll think?
If you know the few towns where a mail drop is recommended there's really no need to carry a guidebook. The databook with mileages between shelter, campsites, roads and water sources would come in handy.
Lone Wolf
08-31-2007, 19:47
Pardon the brief tangent...... Do I even need a guidebook? I've read through Jack's resupply tips a few times and read enough trail journals to almost have the town stops order down pat, plus I'm only traveling the southern portion of the trail. Whadda ya'll think?
I'll GIVE you my stuff.:)
Awol2003
08-31-2007, 22:49
Rick (AT Troll) and I both had ideas about doing a handbook. When Wingfoot closed shop, Rick and I, independently began pursuing the project in earnest. Very recently, I saw that Rick was considering a handbook and contacted him about working together on it. We are still at work on how to “do” this handbook, so this posting is a little premature.
I did talk to Laurie P. about this, and I am waiting on a call from another ATC person because I want to get their perspective.
It is doubtful that everyone’s ideas can all be lumped into a single volume. You end up with too many cooks in the kitchen. And even the best chef can’t cook for everyone. Some people want Italian, some want Chinese, and cooking by committee would result in marinara egg noodles.
Hikers choose what suits them best. The Thru-Hiker’s Handbook and the ATC/ALDHA Companion both have been on the market for years, which is probably a good indication that multiple choices are a good idea. Through the act of people putting a variety of products on the market, better products evolve. Would the Companion still be spiral-bound if not for THH outselling them?
Every purchase you make does not have to be a show of support for a worthy organization. There are many ways to support the ATC. I’ve been a member since thru-hiking was a glint in my eye. They’ve made more (much more) than I have off of their sales of my book.
JK Rowling aside, books make very little money. It is a monumental effort to get one out. If, instead of writing, promoting, and selling a book, I had put the hours into bagging groceries, I would’ve made a hell of a lot more money.
Producing a handbook will cost many thousand dollars, loads of time, and there is no guarantee of getting anything back. Hmm…sounds a lot like a thru-hike.
Awol2003,
Are you the owner of atguidebook.com?
Ron Haven
08-31-2007, 23:04
This question is for thru hikers that have used data books.
I doing some research on some issues and have a question for past and current thru hikers. As I said this question is for those that carried a book or just the pages from a book on your hike.
Keeping in mind the weight, size and space the book will take up whether is was the Data Book, The Companion or The Thru Hikers Handbook and you were coming into a trail town. If you want to keep the books as small as possible and as light as possible but wanted to make sure it had all the essential data. What were the things that you thought should be listed the most for Trail towns?
Here are some of the essentials that I thought of and I was wondering if I was missing anything or would any of these be something that you think should not be in the books
Hostels
Lodging
Restaurants
Shuttles
Food re-supplies
Outfitter
Laundry
Phone
Post Office
For what it's worth this is why I built appalachiantrailservices.com it is so that if a person didn't want to carry a book the could check on the computer and make plans for the next town,check on a computer and find access to businesses that fit their needs once they get into towns.They can print it,make copies,or write info they need.The weather.com links for each trail crossings for 10 days and the mapquest links to maps of all the towns helps.Here is my catagories
http://appalachiantrailservices.com/index.php?env=-inlink/index:m38-1-1-1-s&reset=1
With respect to the Trail Companion and Wing foots guide books I didn't ever list any trail data just those services that you folks are speaking of. According to the hit counter there is a lot of people looking at the info.
Awol2003
08-31-2007, 23:09
Awol2003,
Are you the owner of atguidebook.com?
No. I'm David Miller, "Awol" GA-ME 2003.
No. I'm David Miller, "Awol" GA-ME 2003.
I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask. Thanks for your response, and good luck with the project, whatever you and Troll decide.
In creating this book it was never intended for personal gain on my part at all. Those that know me know I make no profit off WhiteBlaze. Right now we struggle at times to stay afloat but we always manage.
I will put the money out for this. We may not have to worry about what to do with money, because the book might not earn anything! If I do make something, some will go back into WhiteBlaze and a portion of the proceeds will be distributed to the ATC and ALDHA. WhiteBlaze has always donated a portion of the donations and funds we received to the ATC in the past. You can contact the ATC and verify this. Granted it was not a lot of money but that is because we barely stay afloat but if you read our donation page we told all donating members that a portion of there donation will go to the ATC and we do just that.
It is not secret that I have been working on a book for almost two years. I can understand where you are coming from about competing with the ATC and ALDHA but I would never have even started this project if the other two guidebooks would fit the needs that thru hikers are looking for. I have been talking to thru hikers for a couple of years on this subject and a majority of them seem to say that The Thru Hikers Handbook is the best one out there but it lacks this and has to much of that. Well that book is now gone and the current guidebooks are lacking. Ideas have been presented before to these organizations and suggestions have been made but the suggestions were not taken in and acted upon. Granted, they can’t please everyone.
I agree with you also that a poor book would hurt WhiteBlaze and I can promise you that we’ll try to make it an excellent book. In my opinion it will be the best one on the scene, otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to do it.
I have been working on a process of getting inputs for the future additions and we will also be asking for help from outside sources as do all the other guidebooks. The guidebook is only as good and the inputs submitted buy the users and acted upon by the person or persons updating it.
No articles that are posted on WhiteBlaze would be used without the permission of the owner of that article.
I hope this answers your questions. We will be posting some sample pages soon to show you what we have come up with.
Thanks for the update, Rick. Good post.
If you ever need updates from Gorham or the northern Whites, I'm right here.
Good luck to you and Awol with this project.