Chainsaw certification for trail maintainers.

[Mr. Clean]

In an effort to slow the Cog thread, I thought I'd bring up this subject. It seems that the ATC is now making it mandatory for maintainers who wish to use a chainsaw take a two day class as well as CPR and first-aid. And they must re-certify these classes in their entirety every three years.

As a member of the MATC, I know several veteran maintainers have "retired" in protest over these new rules. ATC says they must abide by Federal guidelines and OSHA requirements, but maintainers feel that they already have little extra time, is this really neccessary.

I can't help but to draw a parallel to my many years as a volunteer fire-fighter. I finally retired because of increased training requirements which had me training one day every weekend. It also seems that the end of an era is upon us, that a way of life for maintainers is ending. I love tradition, and history, and feel unhappy about a change that may cause many to abandon trail maintenance, especially when I've never heard of accidents caused by chainsaws.

What do you maintainers think? Is it a sign of the times? Bureaurcracy at it's best? Good or bad?

[SGT Rock]

Buracracy at it's best. Risk avoidance instead of mitigation.

[Cuffs]

I took the class for our club here in AL... it was a breeze. Just get it over with.

[SGT Rock]

Lets see, I am out cutting trail with my chainsaw because I am certified, and then it malfunctions cutting my leg. At least I know how to perform CPR - oh wait, I am the injured party.

[dixicritter]

Lets see, I am out cutting trail with my chainsaw because I am certified, and then it malfunctions cutting my leg. At least I know how to perform CPR - oh wait, I am the injured party.

Oh yeah makes perfect sense to me.......... NOT!

[shelterbuilder]

In an effort to slow the Cog thread, I thought I'd bring up this subject. It seems that the ATC is now making it mandatory for maintainers who wish to use a chainsaw take a two day class as well as CPR and first-aid. And they must re-certify these classes in their entirety every three years.

As a member of the MATC, I know several veteran maintainers have "retired" in protest over these new rules. ATC says they must abide by Federal guidelines and OSHA requirements, but maintainers feel that they already have little extra time, is this really neccessary.

I can't help but to draw a parallel to my many years as a volunteer fire-fighter. I finally retired because of increased training requirements which had me training one day every weekend. It also seems that the end of an era is upon us, that a way of life for maintainers is ending. I love tradition, and history, and feel unhappy about a change that may cause many to abandon trail maintenance, especially when I've never heard of accidents caused by chainsaws.

What do you maintainers think? Is it a sign of the times? Bureaurcracy at it's best? Good or bad?

Boy, this one is going to generate a real firestorm!!

I maintain with BMECC, and just recently went through the certification course - again!:( This topic came up last night at the club's monthly meeting. Officially, I cannot speak for the club, but as for my own opinion, I think that ATC/NPS needs to think LESS in terms of liability and more in terms of practicality. Yes, I can see the need for sawyers to be able to demonstrate a minimum level of skill with the chainsaw, so they pose as little danger as possible to themselves and those around them, but if we are being trained as "professionals", when are we going to be paid as professionals?

FWIW, I think that the training system needs to be multi-tiered: a basic, beginners course for folks who have never had any NPS training, and an advanced course - a refresher course, if you will - for the folks who have already had the basic training. The first aid/CPR course needs to be split off from the sawyer's certification entirely and handed over to another member of the sawyer's crew because, let's face it, if I get hurt with by saw (or the tree that I'm working on), I will be in NO POSITION to help myself. And being miles from the nearest EMS people, it's not likely that I'm going to make it out of the woods alive, in the event of a worst-case scenario.:(

I'm curious - how many times a year are the certification courses offered at locations that make it practical for your people to attend? And are they offering a "combined" course, or have they already split off the "felling" from the "limbing and bucking" course? (That's what has happened here in Pa.; now, you have to go to two separate courses to get full certificaton.):mad:

[Jester2000]

Lets see, I am out cutting trail with my chainsaw because I am certified, and then it malfunctions cutting my leg. At least I know how to perform CPR - oh wait, I am the injured party.

But it turns out you're with another person who's also been required to be certified! And he performs CPR on you! Despite the fact that you've cut off your leg and you don't need CPR!

Actually, I recall when these new rules were put in place and the hullabaloo that ensued. I think it would have been a wise move to grandfather in maintainers with a long history of chainsaw use, perhaps requiring the signing of a waiver on their part releasing the ATC and associated trail clubs from liability.

But overall, I find little wrong with requiring that people planning on using chainsaws out in the woods have regular training in their use, as well as training in wilderness first aid for when something goes wrong.

If there are maintainers out there who feel that their way of life is ending because they have to spend two weekends a year taking classes instead of being on the trail working, I feel sympathy for them, but I think the current requirements are a good thing.

[Fiddleback]

Two thoughts come to mind...

1) The AT maintainers must be a 'different breed'...everywhere I've been I've had friends and/or neighbors that have had accidents with chain saws. That the AT maintainers have not had any accidents is truly fortunate...chainsaws are incredibly dangerous in the wrong or untrained hands.

2) Many areas don't allow chainsaws for trail maintenance (or any other purpose). Maybe that could be something for the various sponsoring organizations to consider for the AT. Getting rid of the chainsaws certainly would help preserve the ambient sound, keep the air cleaner, and make for a safer day of trail work.

As I progressed through my career, taking care of the people and ensuring their safety was subordinate only to accomplishing the mission. Training, especially safety training, took a lot of time but I had no time for those that didn't want to participate in the training. Their reassignment was always quickly and efficiently handled. And those that would have worked beside the reluctant ones were safer for it.

FB

[Jester2000]

FWIW, I think that the training system needs to be multi-tiered: a basic, beginners course for folks who have never had any NPS training, and an advanced course - a refresher course, if you will - for the folks who have already had the basic training.


This seems like a very reasonable idea, and something that should be proposed to the ATC.

[wrongway_08]

Your missing the loop hole, just use a hand saw! :)

I just dont see the reason/need for it.

[shelterbuilder]

[quote=Jester2000;402651]But it turns out you're with another person who's also been required to be certified! And he performs CPR on you! Despite the fact that you've cut off your leg and you don't need CPR!

Actually, I recall when these new rules were put in place and the hullabaloo that ensued. I think it would have been a wise move to grandfather in maintainers with a long history of chainsaw use, perhaps requiring the signing of a waiver on their part releasing the ATC and associated trail clubs from liability.

Jester, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the requirements for first aid/CPR are for the sawyer, not for anyone else in his/her crew. And that's what doesn't make any sense to me. The person required to have the first aid/CPR training is the very person MOST LIKELY to need help and be unable to give it if they are hurt.

[shelterbuilder]

Your missing the loop hole, just use a hand saw! :)

I just dont see the reason/need for it.

No, the hand saw is for cutting your chainsaw out of the tree when you get it stuck because you forgot what you learned in class.:eek: :eek:

[shelterbuilder]

This seems like a very reasonable idea, and something that should be proposed to the ATC.


The proposal was made and noted, but I think that they are understaffed right now. There may be other reasons, too.

[SGT Rock]

I know I have time about one or two days a month to go do some maintenance - on my own schedule. On the other hand I have not been able to, for the last 3 years, been able to mesh the schedule for the required training and my life. BUT I am CPR certified, I've been to combat lifesaver courses a number of times - and have a few years with a chainsaw, although I am a little rusty at it. Part of a great deal of Army individual training includes a thing called the pre-test. If you show up to a class like Apply a tourniquet and can perform the task to standard - then you don't have to take the training unless the guy running takes a shortcut on setting it up and fails to offer the pre-test.

Sometimes the shortcuts are taken by the people in charge - better to mass produce training then to make it specific to the individual needs of the people receiving it.

[Jester2000]

Jester, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the requirements for first aid/CPR are for the sawyer, not for anyone else in his/her crew. And that's what doesn't make any sense to me. The person required to have the first aid/CPR training is the very person MOST LIKELY to need help and be unable to give it if they are hurt.

No, you're absolutely correct here. I think the idea probably revolved around the belief that there would be more than one certified sawyer on any crew, which is obviously not always the case. I think they were trying to link the two certifications together figuring that they couldn't realistically require that everyone on a crew be certified in first aid, but as you've pointed out there's an obvious problem with that link.

Perhaps a better way of doing things would be to require that when a certified sawyer is active, another member of the crew must be certified in wilderness first aid. This would create some logistical problems when organizing trail maintenance crews, but you have to admit that it would be nice to know that there's always someone on your crew who knows more than just how to slap some duct tape over a blister.

Medic!

[Tipi Walter]

Let's see, am I authorized to wear a fully loaded pack on my back? What are the liability issues? Oft times I have in the past cinched my hip belt dangerously tight so isn't there a need for more Harness Safety Classes?? Uh oh, the Gotcha Culture-Nanny State needs to see my pertinent papers regarding boot useage and stride proficiency. God, are my boots up to code? Let's see, if I sneak into a forest without the relevant documentation are the Governing Bodies allowed to fire warning shots and use non-lethal force? Welcome to Backpacking and Trailworking in the New Millennium.

[shelterbuilder]

... Part of a great deal of Army individual training includes a thing called the pre-test. If you show up to a class like Apply a tourniquet and can perform the task to standard - then you don't have to take the training unless the guy running takes a shortcut on setting it up and fails to offer the pre-test.
Sometimes the shortcuts are taken by the people in charge - better to mass produce training then to make it specific to the individual needs of the people receiving it.

The idea of pre-testing seems like a good one. Too bad that they can't/won't use it here. It might save a lot of wasted time.

[Jester2000]

Let's see, am I authorized to wear a fully loaded pack on my back? What are the liability issues? Oft times I have in the past cinched my hip belt dangerously tight so isn't there a need for more Harness Safety Classes?? Uh oh, the Gotcha Culture-Nanny State needs to see my pertinent papers regarding boot useage and stride proficiency. God, are my boots up to code? Let's see, if I sneak into a forest without the relevant documentation are the Governing Bodies allowed to fire warning shots and use non-lethal force? Welcome to Backpacking and Trailworking in the New Millennium.

Wow! I'm shocked that we got in 15 posts of reasonable discussion before Tipi Walter decided to clear the decks with a sarcastic screed.

I think it's sad that we now live in a society so litigious that rules such as the one we're discussing need to be put in place. On the other hand, it just might be that such required training eventually benefits the clubs, as some who would not otherwise become sawyers might do so because of the confidence gained from the classes. Or not. But Tipi's "oh my god, what's next" ranting seems a bit wide of the mark. While you might be able to cut off your leg with a hip belt, I would think it would have to be intentional and involve a lot of effort.

Don't like the requirement? There's plenty of other work you can do on or near a trail. I am particularly proficient with loppers, and have only cut off three fingers (not mine).

Perhaps Tipi would change his tune about the training were he aware that upon completion of the course one receives a hockey mask?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Lets see, I am out cutting trail with my chainsaw because I am certified, and then it malfunctions cutting my leg. At least I know how to perform CPR - oh wait, I am the injured party.So the certified Dino will do it and start all sorts of rumors about wenching :D

[SGT Rock]

Next I will have to be wench certified. :p

But think about it - how long until you can't use a pulaski unless you are certified and are wearing steel toed boots and have a full medic kit including AED. Hardcore is doomed.

[Tipi Walter]

Wow! I'm shocked that we got in 15 posts of reasonable discussion before Tipi Walter decided to clear the decks with a sarcastic screed.

I think it's sad that we now live in a society so litigious that rules such as the one we're discussing need to be put in place. On the other hand, it just might be that such required training eventually benefits the clubs, as some who would not otherwise become sawyers might do so because of the confidence gained from the classes. Or not. But Tipi's "oh my god, what's next" ranting seems a bit wide of the mark. While you might be able to cut off your leg with a hip belt, I would think it would have to be intentional and involve a lot of effort.

Don't like the requirement? There's plenty of other work you can do on or near a trail. I am particularly proficient with loppers, and have only cut off three fingers (not mine).

Perhaps Tipi would change his tune about the training were he aware that upon completion of the course one receives a hockey mask?

I gather you're Lopper Certified? I too would like a hockey mask but failed to get my weed wacker certification or for that matter any type of certification. A litigious society about says it all. Didn't Shakespeare say something about lawyers?

[shelterbuilder]

Perhaps Tipi would change his tune about the training were he aware that upon completion of the course one receives a hockey mask?

Perhaps Tipi won't venture into the woods as much if he knows that I have TWO hockey masks and can wreck havoc in two directions at once!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[mudhead]

Like most around here, I have two saws in the back shed. The good saw is on it's second chain. Wouldn't hurt me to learn a few pointers. Lots of weird things happen when wooding.

Every American, by the age of driving, should have a basic 1st aid/CPR class under their belt. The CPR rules have changed, but alot of it is the same stuff.

Testing out seems prudent. Save time for everyone.

[Tipi Walter]

Perhaps Tipi won't venture into the woods as much if he knows that I have TWO hockey masks and can wreck havoc in two directions at once!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Although I HAVE NOT been certified in weed wacker use, I carry a set illegally and have been trained in two hand use by a professional Wacker -- so be warned.

[SGT Rock]

So now in order to whack I must also be certified. You guys are taking the fun out of everything.

[shelterbuilder]

...But think about it - how long until you can't use a pulaski unless you are certified and are wearing steel toed boots and have a full medic kit including AED. Hardcore is doomed.

I take it you haven't seen some of the safety equipment for trail crews - they have the hard plastic shinguards for the folks to wear - the AEDs may well be next.

I've never ceased to marvel at NPS's attitudes regarding liability: one of the first questions that they ask is, "if we do such-and-such, who's liable if something goes wrong". From a realistic standpoint, you can only protect an idiot from himself for so long. Shakespeare was right about the lawyers!

[Tipi Walter]

So now in order to whack I must also be certified. You guys are taking the fun out of everything.

Most people don't know the dangers of unauthorized wacking--hence the indepth weekend classes, the ceremonial hockey mask at the end of each course, and the time commitment needed to bone up on the subject.

[SGT Rock]

To think I have been wacking without the proper equipment for soo many years.

[Tipi Walter]

To think I have been wacking without the proper equipment for soo many years.

You need to contact the NPS Wacker Hotline immediately before any more damage is done.

[Trailjockey]

So now in order to whack I must also be certified. You guys are taking the fun out of everything.

Maybe you can get credit for previous experience and you won`t have to pre-test out:D

[Jester2000]

To think I have been wacking without the proper equipment for soo many years.

That's NOT what she said.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Do I have to get certified to use my new snippers? I'm told I certifiable.

[hopefulhiker]

I've been using a chainsaw all my life. I own three of them. Never really taken a course on chainsawing. I know it is dangerous. The problem is that they are always breaking down. I would rather have a course on chainsaw repair....

[Skidsteer]

I've been using a chainsaw all my life. I own three of them. Never really taken a course on chainsawing. I know it is dangerous. The problem is that they are always breaking down. I would rather have a course on chainsaw repair....

Now you're talkin'!

I'm in the same boat. Three chainsaws because only one works at a time. Sign me up for the repair course....

[Jester2000]

I've been using a chainsaw all my life.

ALL your life?!? When you were a toddler your parents were incredibly irresponsible.

[mweinstone]

dear clean, dont. just keep doing work without them. screw em! human beings built the pyramids , we know how to chainsaw. we walked on the moon. we know how to chainsaw. we have nukes dude. we know how to chainsaw.
now that we have mandatory chainsaw lessons, can we admit weve lost our edge? real humans are born with chainsaws in their blood. like ted nuget.

[mudhead]

Should have protective stuff for wacking. Don't want to lose your eyesight.

[Outlaw]

Getting rid of the chainsaws certainly would help preserve the ambient sound, keep the air cleaner, and make for a safer day of trail work.

FB, I agree with you on the first two points, but many, many folks have been injured, maimed, or killed cutting trees with axes & saws.

[Pennsylvania Rose]

This is just silly. If you agree to do trail maintence, you know you're working with potentially dangerous tools. How is it the fault of the ATC, FS, or NPS if you screw up or have an accident and hurt yourself with your own tools? And, if you're working on a crew and the person with the chainsaw drops a tree on your head (or whatever), it's that person's fault (or even your faultif you did the something stupid that caused the tree to fall on your head), or maybe, it's no one's fault - accidents do happen.

Now, having used chainsaws, I think everyone should learn to use one properly and volunteers should be encouraged to take a safety course. I guess they can only justify the cost of offering such classes if there's a captive audience.

And when are they going to make it mandatory to take a class about how not to strain your back or crush your foot while moving rocks?

[SGT Rock]

One thing they could try is an apprientiship program for chainsaw use - think of this:

Say I want to get chainsaw certified, and a couple hours away from me there is a master chainsaw guy. There could be a mandatory X number of hours working with him and then he can certify me. The idea is that we can both work out togethere with our schedules what works for us as we both do trail maintenance. As for CPR - sort of silly for chainsaw use, and first aid? Well IMO it would be smarter to issue one of the new Army combat first aid kits and give a small block of instruction on how to use it. All the pieces and parts are designed for self aplication and mainly to quickly stop sever bleeding.

[weary]

First it is the National Park Service, not ATC that is requiring training.

Secondly in 75 years of trail maintaining -- at least 50 of which involved chainsaws -- there have been only one or two minor chainsaw accidents ever reported.

The reason for the low level of accidents is that a chainsaw is noisy and obviously dangerous machine and everyone with common sense treats them gingerly.

The OSHA type training was designed for professional loggers, people who have to fell enough trees to produce three or four cords of wood a day to earn a living.

A trail maintainer only rarely cuts down a tree. Rather they clear a path through maybe three or four blowdowns -- possibly a dozen -- in a season. A couple of hours of instruction in how best to handle the special problems posed by blowdowns strikes me as reasonable. I would make certification mandatory for overseers, who should then teach new maintainers the fundamentals.

In Maine at least very few buy a chainsaw strictly for trail maintenance. Most have used a chainsaw for years around their homes to cut firewood, or to clear away a damaged shade tree.

The typical chainsaw used on the trail is a common household appliance in rural areas. The requirement for two days of training and two days of additional training for recertification every three years for a common appliance is overkill.

The requirement for CPR is especially foolish. Has anyone ever given themselves CPR?

Weary

[SGT Rock]

Wise and realistic answer from the weary one.

[Gray Blazer]

Sort of related. My neighbor lent his chainsaw to his other neighbor one recent Sunday morning and was standing under him as he sawed a branch off his tree. Well, to make a short story longer, the guy in the tree was surprised when he sawed thru the branch and it fell and he dropped the chainsaw on the lendee below. Neither one gets the Darwin award as they both survived, but the lendee did have to go to the hospital via ambulance. Moral: If they had been in church, nobody would have gotten hurt :confused: .

[D'Artagnan]

My granddad's idea of chainsaw training for me as a kid (bearing in mind he was a forester for over 50 years): When you can crank it standing up, you can run it. :eek: My first chainsaw was a Stihl with about a 16" bar.

I've seen a lot of idiots wielding chainsaws over the years (especially after storms) and I normally give them a very wide berth. I'm not convinced classroom training on something like this is going to help in the real world. Just look at the idiots on the highways -- I mean, they had to pass a driving test, didn't they?

[Cannibal]

I've seen a lot of idiots wielding chainsaws over the years (especially after storms) and I normally give them a very wide berth. I'm not convinced classroom training on something like this is going to help in the real world. Just look at the idiots on the highways -- I mean, they had to pass a driving test, didn't they?

Had to laugh at that one. After the hurricanes come thru all the morons go buy chainsaws here in Florida. The ER then begins filling-up with leg wounds and concussions. I think what the Redneck Comedy Tour guy said sums it up perfectly: "You can't fix stupid".

[The Weasel]

While it's fun to criticise new rules and regulations with a "I've done it for years and had no problems," the fact remains that there are a lot of deaths and injuries that result from a lack of training and updated training. Safety managers in industry know that repeated safety training, even of skilled workers, reduces accidents, often dramatically.

And yeah, some training even in lawn maintenance tools may sound silly, but they can be every bit as dangerous as chainsaws or other power tools. If people don't want that training or instruction on their own property, that's one thing, but there are serious risks even for "smart" people.

I don't want the trail to lose a single maintainer, because they do such good and kind work, for not nearly enough pay or thanks. But I also don't want the trail to lose a single maintainer by death or injury, when a short training course may have prevented that loss.

The Weasel

[Chaco Taco]

Re certifying in CPR and First aid can never happen often enough. Having a chance to brush up on skills is a good thing. However, in order to make it worthwhile for students to get the most of it, do what dude said on the first page, do it according to skill level. I recertify every year and am always with some stupid kids that want to laugh the whole class. I would like to take the class with people taht are serious about learning to save a life. Too often you hear on the news about people perfroming CPR or First Aid doing it incorrectly even when they are certified by the Red Cross.

[Tipi Walter]

While it's fun to criticise new rules and regulations with a "I've done it for years and had no problems," the fact remains that there are a lot of deaths and injuries that result from a lack of training and updated training. Safety managers in industry know that repeated safety training, even of skilled workers, reduces accidents, often dramatically.

And yeah, some training even in lawn maintenance tools may sound silly, but they can be every bit as dangerous as chainsaws or other power tools. If people don't want that training or instruction on their own property, that's one thing, but there are serious risks even for "smart" people.

I don't want the trail to lose a single maintainer, because they do such good and kind work, for not nearly enough pay or thanks. But I also don't want the trail to lose a single maintainer by death or injury, when a short training course may have prevented that loss.

The Weasel

The issue to me isn't about chainsaw classes but about NPS protocol and policy. By agreeing to chainsaw certification we are tacitly supporting more NPS rules and regulations and accepting to live by their liability fears regarding all things human as it relates to the forest. Should we not as backpackers try to go in the opposite direction and give the NPS less control instead of more? With 500,000 acres in the Smokies, it is actually a rule that backpackers must have a permit and camp only at designated sites which landwise probably only accounts for one half of one percent of the total acreage. Is a special permit required for camping at undesignated backcountry sites? And if it takes special permission, why does it take special permission?

Who makes all these rules and when will it stop?

[hopefulhiker]

I agree, someone is just worried about the liability issues. One think I will not do is use a chainsaw without someone else around.. If there is an accident or you get pinned by a big branch or tree or something it is good to have someone around...

[The Weasel]

First it is the National Park Service, not ATC that is requiring training.

Secondly in 75 years of trail maintaining -- at least 50 of which involved chainsaws -- there have been only one or two minor chainsaw accidents ever reported.

The reason for the low level of accidents is that a chainsaw is noisy and obviously dangerous machine and everyone with common sense treats them gingerly.

The OSHA type training was designed for professional loggers, people who have to fell enough trees to produce three or four cords of wood a day to earn a living.

A trail maintainer only rarely cuts down a tree. Rather they clear a path through maybe three or four blowdowns -- possibly a dozen -- in a season. A couple of hours of instruction in how best to handle the special problems posed by blowdowns strikes me as reasonable. I would make certification mandatory for overseers, who should then teach new maintainers the fundamentals.

In Maine at least very few buy a chainsaw strictly for trail maintenance. Most have used a chainsaw for years around their homes to cut firewood, or to clear away a damaged shade tree.

The typical chainsaw used on the trail is a common household appliance in rural areas. The requirement for two days of training and two days of additional training for recertification every three years for a common appliance is overkill.

The requirement for CPR is especially foolish. Has anyone ever given themselves CPR?

Weary

Weary --

I've owned chainsaws for 30 years, and I know their danger. I'm not sure what the curriculum is that requires 2 days, so I can't speak to that.

As for CPR, though, I know that its common for chainsaw users (particularly maintainers) to work in groups. Having CPR training is going to be useful.

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

The issue to me isn't about chainsaw classes but about NPS protocol and policy. By agreeing to chainsaw certification we are tacitly supporting more NPS rules and regulations and accepting to live by their liability fears regarding all things human as it relates to the forest. Should we not as backpackers try to go in the opposite direction and give the NPS less control instead of more? With 500,000 acres in the Smokies, it is actually a rule that backpackers must have a permit and camp only at designated sites which landwise probably only accounts for one half of one percent of the total acreage. Is a special permit required for camping at undesignated backcountry sites? And if it takes special permission, why does it take special permission?

Who makes all these rules and when will it stop?

Tipi:

At the risk of thread drift, while Weary (who has more info than I do, so I'll defer to him) may be right about the need for this level of training for chainsaw users, you've picked a bad example about limiting camping in the Smokies, one of the most heavily used (and rapidly degrading) National Parks in the country. Unrestricted camping would be a disaster, and limiting the number of people at campsites/shelters (yes, I know the number of thrus are not limited along the Trail) would devastate the park.

The Weasel

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Back to certification for saw use. I can see it is a hassle, on the other hand (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/HanksHandinjury2forweb.jpg), it does have some merits (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/Hankshandforweb9-22-06.jpg)

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi:

At the risk of thread drift, while Weary (who has more info than I do, so I'll defer to him) may be right about the need for this level of training for chainsaw users, you've picked a bad example about limiting camping in the Smokies, one of the most heavily used (and rapidly degrading) National Parks in the country. Unrestricted camping would be a disaster, and limiting the number of people at campsites/shelters (yes, I know the number of thrus are not limited along the Trail) would devastate the park.

The Weasel

But why pick on the backpackers? Why not the automobile tourists? The Park has already been devastated by air pollution and I know the 10 million people who visit the park and contribute to the bad air each year are not all backpackers. In fact, I think the solution would be to close the park to vehicle access and allow total hiker/camping access to the 900 miles of trails there. It's the NPS multiuse policy(Cades Cove motor loop,etc) and not unlimited tent sites which is helping to ruin the Smokies.

[The Weasel]

But why pick on the backpackers? Why not the automobile tourists? The Park has already been devastated by air pollution and I know the 10 million people who visit the park and contribute to the bad air each year are not all backpackers. In fact, I think the solution would be to close the park to vehicle access and allow total hiker/camping access to the 900 miles of trails there. It's the NPS multiuse policy(Cades Cove motor loop,etc) and not unlimited tent sites which is helping to ruin the Smokies.

Tipi, unrestricted camping along the AT in the Smokies exists, south of Fontana. While still majestic, it is a significant problem, even with lower use levels than in the Park proper. Sorry. Some places can't be open everywhere to everyone.

The Weasel

[weary]

....As for CPR, though, I know that its common for chainsaw users (particularly maintainers) to work in groups. Having CPR training is going to be useful. The Weasel
Not in Maine. Here the trail is divided in sections of between 2 and 4 miles. Each maintainer is assigned a section. It is his responsibility to keep the section free of brush and blowdowns. The maintainer commonly recruits friends, neighbors or boy scouts to help. But typically there is only one chainsaw present when people go out each spring to clear the winter accumulations of problems. Others in a group clip brush, and move brush off the trail.

It would be marginally useful for someone in a group to know CPR. Though the trail is so remote the chances for someone with a heart attack and needing CPR getting to a hospital in time to do any good is infinitesimal.

Medics tell me that CPR is useful when an ambulance is on the way. But only very rarely, if ever, when one is several trail miles and 50 - 100 miles or more of highway driving to a medical facility.

The National Park Service rules assume a group of maintainers working on each section. That is the the practice for some maintaining clubs with short sections of trail to maintain. But that system is not feasible in a state like Maine with 270 miles of trail -- another 100 miles of side trails -- and fewer than 600 club members.

Also assigning individuals with responsibility for each section ensures a better maintained trail, than assigning a group, where no individual accepts responsibility. Our biggest problem in Maine tends to be along the few sections where a group, rather an individual has a trail maintenance assignment.

Weary

[SGT Rock]

Same thing here. CPR could not be sustained by me or even two of me long enough to get help into someone that needed it. HOI and I were just talking about this the other day - if one of us had needed help, well the other had to make a choice to leave them and come back for 'em, or HOPE that they could sustain CPR until a possible cell phone signal could be gotten and somehow a rescue crew could come out to help. My experience training on CPR is a very fit person cannot possibly maintain that rate of work for more than about 30 minutes.

As an aside. A friend of mine that was building trail for the Pinhoti in Alabama had a worker collapse from heart attack. They did CPR for as long as humanly possible and it still didn't do any good. Carrying an AED and satellite phone would be more effective - but by how much I am not sure.

Naw, from my experience working in the Government, this is a decision probably applied from higher ups that have not done a realistic risk mitigation and benefit analysis. But it briefs well.

[hopefulhiker]

I have worked in a hospital and actually given CPR to a Hurricane Hugo victim unsuccessfully until the paramedics came.. I have seen people come back pretty quickly from just a short time of CPR though....

[woodsy]

I thought i wanted to be a trail maintainer but it is now looking like i would be spending more time in class than on the trail. F it. What next? hiker waivers?
I say its BS about all this certification nonsense, and who is going to pay for it? The maintainers?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

As several have noted, CPR could not be sustained on a victim in total arrest long enough for help to arrive. However, many people start breathing / heart beats again on their own soon after CPR is begun. It could well mean the difference between life, life as a veggie and / or death.

[warraghiyagey]

. . . Naw, from my experience working in the Government, this is a decision probably applied from higher ups that have not done a realistic risk mitigation and benefit analysis. But it briefs well.

It'd be interesting to see these same folks apply the ruling. There's got to be a large number of us that have more chainsaw experience than any class certification tutor and CPR as well. Think these loads could get their ass into the trail to write a ticket?
I've got three gigs lined up of maintenance in Maine and I'm not changing them unless these rulemakers can hike alongside me. Doubltful.
Woodsy, want to do some Mainetenance in April/May?

[woodsy]

Woodsy, want to do some Mainetenance in April/May?
Depends, is it under the radar? Will i need to get a learners permit to run loppers?

[emerald]

Will i need to get a learners permit to run loppers?

Depends upon whether you sheath your lopper while walking to your next cut. I heard tell NPS hid video cameras in the popple stumps up in the wilds.;)

[Bare Bear]

I have used chainsaws and two person bow saws since I was 15 years old. At 16 I thought I could handle the bow saw myself on a fall and ended up binding the saw and when the blade broke (more muscle than brains obviously) I ended up with 22 stitches in my lip and a broken off front tooth. I have been able to OJT with sawers who are retired Oregon lumbermen. They know and teach you a bunch. BUT....
Last year after the AT I finally went to the Cert Class in Florida for three days. I learned a lot, it was actually kinda fun, the instructors were great (Firefighters from south Florida who go all over the US to down the really big trees while fighting fires); and I am glad I went. The videos alone were worth the time: like cutting down a 100 foot tall burning tree with 400 pound branches falling about while cutting......gee that looked like fun! Perhaps once you go once it could be easier to re-certify but I am still glad I went. It let me see what I had done wrong all that time; how to do it safer and easier.

[SGT Rock]

It'd be interesting to see these same folks apply the ruling. There's got to be a large number of us that have more chainsaw experience than any class certification tutor and CPR as well. Think these loads could get their ass into the trail to write a ticket?
I've got three gigs lined up of maintenance in Maine and I'm not changing them unless these rulemakers can hike alongside me. Doubltful.
Woodsy, want to do some Mainetenance in April/May?

Well I was thinking of doing some trail maintenance the weekend after next - so far I have yet to ever see anyone out there checking for any sort of certification on anything I have ever done.

BTW, I once sliced my leg open pretty darn good with a machete while doing trail maintenance. I reckon that is next.

[Jester2000]

And, if you're working on a crew and the person with the chainsaw drops a tree on your head (or whatever), it's that person's fault (or even your faultif you did the something stupid that caused the tree to fall on your head), or maybe, it's no one's fault - accidents do happen.

Welcome to the US in 2007, time traveler. What previous era do you come from. By the way, your sudden appearance has made me late for a meeting, and I'm going to sue you.


Unrestricted camping would be a disaster, and limiting the number of people at campsites/shelters (yes, I know the number of thrus are not limited along the Trail) would devastate the park.
The Weasel

Well, maybe. But I think the destruction of the park is a small price to pay for me to be able to keep my freak flag flying without having to register it.


Same thing here. CPR could not be sustained by me or even two of me long enough to get help into someone that needed it.

I have always thought that the world would be a better place if there were more than one SGT Rock, and now I find out that there is. Kinda explains how you manage to do so much.


I thought i wanted to be a trail maintainer but it is now looking like i would be spending more time in class than on the trail.

I suppose that depends on whether or not you were planning on spending less than four days every three years doing trail maintenance. If that's the case, you're absolutely correct. No need for the classes. Almost no one will notice if you're not there that one day per year.


It'd be interesting to see these same folks apply the ruling. There's got to be a large number of us that have more chainsaw experience . . .

. . .and now that I think of it, more chainsaws. Are they really gonna stop you? I mean, c'mon, you've got a CHAINSAW.


. . .I am glad I went. . .Perhaps once you go once it could be easier to re-certify but I am still glad I went. It let me see what I had done wrong all that time; how to do it safer and easier.

You had to go and ruin everything with a first person account of the usefulness of the classes. Did the last part of the class involve brainwashing of some kind?

[woodsy]

From reading the latest edition of the MAINEtainer(MATC's newsletter), there will likely be many openings for maintainers next season. A 30 year maintainer and district overseer has quit over the latest NPSBS. Several other maintainers are refusing to recertify with a 2 day refresher every three years and CPR/First Aid course also.
It looks as though you will be able to snap boughs without certification though, with bare hands.

[emerald]

I once sliced my leg open pretty darn good with a machete while doing trail maintenance.

If you have a neighbor who has an acre or two not fit for pasture, ask him if you could plant some Christmas trees. Shearing them would be good practice.

Better to be close to civilization, if you need CPR, you know.;)

[shelterbuilder]

Jester - the classes ARE useful, in terms of making sure that everyone has a MINIMUM LEVEL of training. I agree that there are many, many maintainers who have years of practical experience that cannot be taught in class. My gripe with NPS policy is that it treats everyone the same - newbies and 30 year veterns alike. There needs to be a two-tiered system - and I still like Sgt. Rock's idea RE: pre-testing.

I'll be leading a worktrip tomorrow at Eagle's Nest shelter to re-open the vista on the north side of the ridge. For this one, we'll have 2 sawyers and possibly 2 - 3 folks pulling brush to the side. We'll be working on a 30* slope in a rockfall - and I'm glad that the sawyers have had training. That said, everyone will have to be EXTRA careful because of the terrain - it'll be a learning experience for all of us.

BTW, when we built Eagle's Nest, the primary tools were chainsaws - and we were using them in some of the very dangerous ways that we are told NOT to use them because the requirements for building with logs are different from the demands of clearing trail. Another learning experience!:sun

[emerald]

From reading the latest edition of the MAINEtainer there will likely be many openings for maintainers next season. A 30 year maintainer and district overseer has quit over the latest NPSBS.

woodsy, I worked with in Maine with teenagers who probably knew how to operate a chain saw as well as I can. Many kids in Maine who grow up in rural areas are wise in the ways of the wilds.

Many could outwork city slickers twice their age in The Green Diamond. [I can't be bothered looking for the proper emoticon, but it would be one that would measure up to the best of Ms Doolittle's.]

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino hides from SOGs new avatar :::

Despite the TENNets of the new rules, I knoW A number of PlAces that TENNatively Need Community Support from Caring FoLks for MAINEtance NEeds

[emerald]

Yeah, ns, sb. Plunge cuts and all that stuff! I bet they didn't mention that item, let alone demonstrate how to do it safely at the workshop you attended. The instructor probably didn't bring it up it for fear they'd get someone hurt. I can't blame them. Liability and nitwits, you know.

Have they ever heard of releases? Damn, now I just invited The Weasel to get in on all the fun.

I might add, I know who cleared the spot where Eagle's Nest Shelter rests. No injuries that day, sb. Looking out for #1 and passing the 1st page test every day, thank you very much!:rolleyes: ;)

[shelterbuilder]

BTW, FD, I see that you've managed to unearth some of the pictures that they used to show in the old certification course - I don't think that they show those photos anymore - I think NPS was afraid that they'd be sued for making people sick to their stomachs!:eek:

SOG, they DO teach plunge cuts - used in specific circumstances, that cut is a wonderful technique. But it has its own special dangers, as well you know.;)

(Where DID you get that avatar??)

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Shelterbuilder, those pics are of what he-dino did to his hand last year with the dado blade and a table saw.

[shelterbuilder]

Shelterbuilder, those pics are of what he-dino did to his hand last year with the dado blade and a table saw.

OUCH!:eek:

[emerald]

::: Dino hides from SOGs new avatar :::

Don't toy with me, Dino. You know better than that. I'm a team player.;)

Show a little respect for the English language, would you? What's with that goofy, mixed font? I needed to fix your spelling and punctuation too.:eek:

Caring folks for MAINEtenance needs? You only get that kind of service from a MAINEtainer, Dino.

Stop with your nonsense.:p I've heard there's a thread somewhere around here about cattle:cool: and I want to know what sort of garbage WhiteBlaze is disseminating.

[handlebar]

Naw, from my experience working in the Government, this is a decision probably applied from higher ups that have not done a realistic risk mitigation and benefit analysis. But it briefs well.

A agree chainsaw training makes sense IF you're going to be using the saw around others. If not, then let's please allow for personal responsibility and liability by letting people be the judge of their own skills---in which case the CPR argument is moot. BTW, I believe there are also certifications in the use of crosscut saws. Again makes sense if working with a group, but not on your own---though with crosscuts, it's almost always easier with two sawyers.

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but this fits right in with my number one dumbest rule ever. The person promulgating this rule is probably the same higher up that said new privies need to be ADA certified. Let's see, if a disabled person hikes up to the shelter, then does he or she really need a ramp to get up to the privy?

I've spent 6 months getting around on crutches, and know how difficult if is for someone who is disabled. However, even if there is some kind of wheelchair that one could maneuver by hand to get up the trail (motorized would be illegal to use on the AT), wouldn't he/she need some crutches to get around in camp? Certainly, they'd have the upper body strength to use crutches if they could wheel up the trail. I guarantee a few steps with crutches is no sweat for someone who walks on them routinely or routinely uses a wheelchair. My shoulders/upper body haven't been as strong as after that 6 month period since.

I've asked everyone at the work crews for the ATC for the name of the person that made this rule. No one seems to know. Too bad, I'd like to drag the him/her out on the trail to show him how easy it is to use a wheelchair to get up to the location of some of these privies. Just a bureaucrat afraid to use common sense and following a rule which normally is good, but in this case is plain stupid. Incidenntally, the corporate world has as many silly rules at the government bureaucracy.

[emerald]

SOG, they DO teach plunge cuts - used in specific circumstances, that cut is a wonderful technique. But it has its own special dangers, as well you know.;)

Yes, it's best to use a Stihl low-profile chain and anti-kickback (green) bars, but you're probably running something else.:eek:


Where DID you get that avatar??

I'm not telling, even you, and it's only temporary until Paul Bunyan summits and I may only display it when I think Blissful may see it to remind her she has a tall man by her side.:cool:

[shelterbuilder]

Handlebar, if I recall correctly, ADA-compliant privies were kind of "cross-pollinated" into the trail, just as OHSA "cross-pollinated" itself into the chainsaw issue. But I agree with you - some bureaucrat somewhere is responsible for making an arbitrary decision. He doesn't have to live with it, but we do!

[shelterbuilder]

Yes, it's best to use a Stihl low-profile chain and anti-kickback (green) bars, but you're probably running something else.:eek:



I'm not telling, even you, and it's only temporary until Paul Bunyan summits and I may only display it when I think Blissful may see it to remind her she has a tall man by her side.:cool:

No, they don't make green bars for my "little toy".:D Of course, if I keep cutting rocks with it, I won't have to worry about getting hurt with it, either.:rolleyes:

[SGT Rock]

Yes, it's best to use a Stihl low-profile chain and anti-kickback (green) bars, but you're probably running something else.:eek:


I have been thinking of getting the MS260 pro for cutting. Not to big for packing in and not quite as expensive as some of their other saws.

[emerald]

It's getting late. See you when the sun comes up or shortly thereafter, sb.

I want to hear that silly, little saw of yours scream tomorrow! Put a tach on it already. I don't have all day.:D

[shelterbuilder]

I have been thinking of getting the MS260 pro for cutting. Not to big for packing in and not quite as expensive as some of their other saws.

The older I get, the more I appreciate some of the smaller saws. They may not have as much power as their bigger brothers, but if you have a sharp chain and don't force things, there's very little maintenence work that they can't do. I own a Husky (550, I think) and an Echo 320. I'm partial to Echo - NEVER had problems with any Echo I've ever used.

[shelterbuilder]

It's getting late. See you when the sun comes up or shortly thereafter, sb.

I want to hear that silly, little saw of yours scream tomorrow! Put a tach on it already. I don't have all day.:D

Good night, SOG. Scream she will, for all the world to hear.:banana

[Tennessee Viking]

Even though many of us maintainers have signed our lives away by signing waivers, the ATC and joint groups do not want to make any issue out of any possible incident. Basically to cover their non profit butts.

I am with the TEHCC in Tennessee, and one thing I we have been joking about; the ATC is hoping that with more restrictions, there will be fewer sawyers. And fewer sawyers more trees on trail.

[emerald]

Good night, SOG. Scream she will, for all the world to hear.:banana

Good, I'm lovin' it already! I'm a draft animal, you know.

Paul doesn't think much of crosscut saws. He notches them with his double-bitted axe and pushes them over. Sometimes, when people are assembled looking for a show, he blows them down. What do you think caused those fir waves in Baxter? He's can even look a big pine down on a good day.;)

[emerald]

Hey, woodsy, you still got pine trees needin' choppin'?

[emerald]

I have been thinking of getting the MS260 pro for cutting. Not to big for packing in and not quite as expensive as some of their other saws.

Do that and you'll be glad you did, although Husqvarna enthusiasts will tell you otherwise.;)

[emerald]

Handlebar, if I recall correctly, ADA-compliant privies were kind of "cross-pollinated" into the trail, just as OHSA "cross-pollinated" itself into the chain saw issue. But I agree with you - some bureaucrat somewhere is responsible for making an arbitrary decision. He doesn't have to live with it, but we do!

Be careful how you use the word cross-pollinate around here, would you?


No, they don't make green bars for my "little toy".:D

I believe Stihl does, because they know some people will buy them.:rolleyes:


Of course, if I keep cutting rocks with it, I won't have to worry about getting hurt with it, either.:rolleyes:

Three things: see if you can refrain from sawing rocks, buy yourself a grinder and read What axe should I carry? to learn about the dangers of using a dull cutting implement.

:-? ATC really gives decals to people who post stuff like you do?

[Mr. Clean]

I like the idea of a two-tiered class; a two day class for people new to the "program", and a half day refresher for veterans. Everyone should know basic first aid and CPR, and wilderness first aid would be beneficial. I have only needed a chain saw once in the 8 years I've been doing trail work, have used a saw since I was 15 (30 yrs now), and cut about 5 cords a year. While maybe not a pro, I know saws and how dangerous they can be, but the idea of a two day class every three years, that really seems like overkill.

There was some discussion that with fewer trained/certified sawyers on hand that they could be called upon to visit an area that required a saw, where a maintainer really needed one. I suppose this could work, but the increased level of bureaucracy for a volunteer effort still grinds my bag. Would there be enough of these guys spread out over the length of the trail to make it work? I don't know. I do know that it seems another freedom is disappearing. The freedom to hurt myself? Maybe. I haven't done it in 30 years, maybe I will tomorrow. But it'll be my own damn fault. Maybe waivers would soothe the NPS.

[woodsy]

Great post Mr. Clean
BTW, I was going to start this thread but hesitated in hopes a REAL maintainer would.
I'm not sure where the law differs from private to public land ownership in terms of liability but..... if I were to let you cut wood on my property in Maine, you would be totally responsible for any injuries incurred to yourself and could not sue me for a nickel.Period.

[Mr. Clean]

I agree, Woodsey, but I hardly feel I qualify as a real maintainer. I haven't been able to land an AT section to maintain yet, but maintain a yellow-blazed trail in Evans Notch, the South Baldface trail for AMC. Very high usage, and pretty much a highway. I do the mundane stuff; drainages, clipping, drainages, pruning, drainages, blazing, drainages, and sawing. I also do some stuff with rock like new waterbars and stepping stones in soft areas. And drainages. I have over 100 of the buggers. But, after 8 years of maintaining, I feel I'm starting to get a handle on it.

Maybe the ATC clubs could work something out with the NPS with a reduced class load and waivers. I'm not against safety by any means, I just don't see a real need in this area. Now, hiking with all body parts covered...this seems to be a real issue.:eek:

Sorry...couldn't help myself.

[woodsy]

Placing unnecessary requirements upon volunteers who have a proven history of safety and common sense is not in the best interest of the club(MATC). Most of the maintainers work their sections ALONE and the requirements for CPR certification is of no use.This from the former 30 year trail maintainer and District Overseer, someone who knows what its all about.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I there any chance of changing the NPS mind about the requirement for CPR training? I can see a single certification for first-adi and chain saw & other backcountry tool use / safety with a review or refresher every 3 yrs, but CPR?

[woodsy]

but I hardly feel I qualify as a real maintainer. I haven't been able to land an AT section to maintain yet, but maintain a yellow-blazed trailSure you're a real maintainer. Appreciated by many I'm sure. Lots of trails beyond the AT that are just as good and as heavily used as well. I frequent trails off the AT and always notice and appreciate maintainence. I contribute to trails by snapping twigs and boughs that overlap the footpath and also throw any movable trees/branches off the trails. And if I might add, NEVER complain about trail conditions.
I met a NPS boundary inspector/corridor mointor yesterday at a trailhead, had a nice chat with him about the work he does. This might be something that i'll look into instead of the trail maintainer SCHOOL.

[Mr. Clean]

I hear corridor monitoring can be very exciting, more like bushwhacking.

[weary]

I hear corridor monitoring can be very exciting, more like bushwhacking.
Exactly like bushwhacking. A monitor's job is to find the boundary markers that delineate the boundaries of the trail corridor.

At last count there were 13 sections of the corridor in Maine without a monitor. Once the markers are found monitors revisit the boundaries and report any infringement by developers, loggers, or just illegal cross trails such as that created by White House Landing.

Volunteers should contact David B. Field, 191 Emerson Mill Road, Hampden ME 04444. Dave heads up the corridor monitoring in Maine. BTW, Dave also conducts training sessions to help monitors in their new duties.

BTW I learned yesterday that a National Park Service ranger visited WHL this summer, painted out the illegal blazes, and won the promise of the sporting camp owners to cease their illegal blazing of a cross trail.

[shelterbuilder]

I there any chance of changing the NPS mind about the requirement for CPR training? I can see a single certification for first-adi and chain saw & other backcountry tool use / safety with a review or refresher every 3 yrs, but CPR?

FD, there's always a chance that NPS's mind can be changed (now wait, NPS is a branch of the government, so this may be a "mindless" situation), but there should be a concerted effort (a united front across all of the clubs) to put forth another option or options. NPS is claiming the need because of OHSA, so we would need to show that OHSA could be satisfied in another way, OR that OHSA's regulations - as they are currently written - are not applicable because of some special circumstance. That would take some legal work, and remember, I'm not a LAWYER, I'm a SAWYER!:D

[emerald]

I'm a SAWYER!

Having witnessed it myself this morning, I must report it's so.:)

[shelterbuilder]

Having witnessed it myself this morning, I must report it's so.:)

:p to all non-believers!

[Old Hillwalker]

Last night I returned from a week of AT corridor boundary work in the Mahoosucs. Here is a link to our Corridor Monitoring Blog: http://www.atcboundary.blogspot.com/
It's very new, and we have been too busy to work on it since our current basecamp at Carlo Col's wifi is pretty poor;).

We are currently recutting the exterior boundary four foot sight line and repainting the yellow blazing from the Maine Boundary to the Androscoggin River. Unless you have hiked that section several times, you would not believe the terrain that the boundary traverses in that thousand foot wide corridor. At one point yesterday we were stopped on a narrow ledge half way up a cliff face that had one of the aluminum boundary monuments epoxied part way up the face and just out of sight. We are going back in with two rock climbers and gear next week to complete that section. In four ten hour days, four of us cleared somewhere around only 1500 feet of boundary. The line was originally surveyed in 1987, and has filled in with trees to the point where it has virtually disappeared except for the old yellow surveyor's blazes. Much of what we are cutting from the line has grown to four and five inches in diameter. Fir and Spruce.

Of the four person crew this week, I am the only unpaid volunteer. My normal boundary monitoring section is the section from Moose to Smart's Mountain in the Western Whites. Once I finish my two days of paid "real job" at a school district in NH on tuesday I will be going back in for four more days.:sun I have to say, it's wicked fun working out there with these young people.

And last, let me say. I am a level two certified USFS Sawyer. No one mentioned the three levels of certification. Maybe the people who quit were afraid of being only level one certified and legally had to work under the supervision of a level two or three sawyer and it rankled them that they might not be top dog any more. Also, that certification brings with it the coverage of workman's comp and liability insurance. Neither of which applied prior to certification. No small thing.

Wanna help out? Give me a PM.......

[walkin' wally]

[QUOTE=weary;402918]


A trail maintainer only rarely cuts down a tree. Rather they clear a path through maybe three or four blowdowns -- possibly a dozen -- in a season. A couple of hours of instruction in how best to handle the special problems posed by blowdowns strikes me as reasonable. I would make certification mandatory for overseers, who should then teach new maintainers the fundamentals.

Wow. Last year I cut a dozen blowdowns, at least, in two hundred yards and that was in a 4 mile section. Mostly dead wood.

I learned a lot with Lester Kenway at my certification and would go back again if I had to. It is better than getting hurt and I have used a saw for many years. Just the work with springpoles was worth it.

[walkin' wally]

I thought i wanted to be a trail maintainer but it is now looking like i would be spending more time in class than on the trail. F it. What next? hiker waivers?
I say its BS about all this certification nonsense, and who is going to pay for it? The maintainers?

It's free. I did not pay anything. I got safety equipment to use too.

[shelterbuilder]

One of the things that is really tricky is felling "hazard" trees that may be standing near shelters or privies. Invariably, they lean the "wrong" way, and coaxing them down AWAY from the structure can really be interesting. :-? This can be one of the times when a sawyer has to say: "this is beyond my ability, we need somebody else to come out and do this one".

This is NOT the same type of work that we normally do on the footpath, where a tree has fallen across the trail and you need to cut out a section for hikers to walk through.

[walkin' wally]

I agree, Woodsey, but I hardly feel I qualify as a real maintainer. I haven't been able to land an AT section to maintain yet, but maintain a yellow-blazed trail in Evans Notch, the South Baldface trail for AMC. .


If you are a member of MATC and you get The Maintainer newspaper, there are openings in just about every issue. Are you looking for a particular place in Maine? Are you just looking in the AMC AT area south of Grafton Notch?

Today I applied for a new section with easier access. I gave up a section that was a 13 mile round trip including a 3 mile approach.

[The Weasel]

Is "trail maintenance" without the approval of the ATC or a local trail maintainer group permitted? I have a recollection that some parts of the AT go through designated wilderness areas in which even downfall clearing isn't permitted.

The Weasel

[walkin' wally]

One of the things that is really tricky is felling "hazard" trees that may be standing near shelters or privies. Invariably, they lean the "wrong" way, and coaxing them down AWAY from the structure can really be interesting. :-? This can be one of the times when a sawyer has to say: "this is beyond my ability, we need somebody else to come out and do this one".

This is NOT the same type of work that we normally do on the footpath, where a tree has fallen across the trail and you need to cut out a section for hikers to walk through.


The certification course get you a level B sawyer rate which does not give much training for felling. In other words downed wood only. Limbing and bucking.

Trees can be coaxed to go in a direction away from an object by using a wedge(s) in the kerf and then doing the release cut. I have cut trees that simply stood there upright after the release cut. At that point I would use a wedge to tip it over.

The certification teaches a method of using a chainsaw that give maximum emphasis on safety.
My instructor was Lester Kenway who was the trail crew leader at Baxter Park for years. He showed us ways of cutting standing timber that was beyond the level B scope.
Soren Ericsson developed this method in the 1960's after seeing an appalling amount of injuries from chainsaws in the logging industry. We were taught the open notch, bore cutting method with the release cut. Among other things this uses the hinge that is left to direct the tree to the desired fall line and tries to avoid the tree splitting ( barber shop chair ) at the trunk and injuring the sawyer.
One thing that was emphasized was having an escape route planned 45 degrees away from the back cut and having a safe area to work in to begin with.
I have used a saw for many years but I still felt the certification was worthwhile. There is always something to learn.

[shelterbuilder]

Is "trail maintenance" without the approval of the ATC or a local trail maintainer group permitted? I have a recollection that some parts of the AT go through designated wilderness areas in which even downfall clearing isn't permitted.

The Weasel

There are folks out there who know more than I do, but I'll put in my two cent's worth. Trail maintenence that is not performed by or under the supervision of a local trail club (or the ATC) is discouraged, mainly because, without knowing it, ordinary folks can do things that do not meet maintenence standards (like painting blazes every 30 feet!). There are special regulations that apply in designated wilderness areas - the big thing here is that no power tools are permitted. But as far as I know, hand tools are permitted here. (We have no designated wilderness areas where I am, so I'll defer to those with more knowledge.)

[shelterbuilder]

The certification course get you a level B sawyer rate which does not give much training for felling. In other words downed wood only. Limbing and bucking.

Trees can be coaxed to go in a direction away from an object by using a wedge(s) in the kerf and then doing the release cut. I have cut trees that simply stood there upright after the release cut. At that point I would use a wedge to tip it over.

The certification teaches a method of using a chainsaw that give maximum emphasis on safety.
My instructor was Lester Kenway who was the trail crew leader at Baxter Park for years. He showed us ways of cutting standing timber that was beyond the level B scope.
Soren Ericsson developed this method in the 1960's after seeing an appalling amount of injuries from chainsaws in the logging industry. We were taught the open notch, bore cutting method with the release cut. Among other things this uses the hinge that is left to direct the tree to the desired fall line and tries to avoid the tree splitting ( barber shop chair ) at the trunk and injuring the sawyer.
One thing that was emphasized was having an escape route planned 45 degrees away from the back cut and having a safe area to work in to begin with.
I have used a saw for many years but I still felt the certification was worthwhile. There is always something to learn.

Peter Jensen has been doing instruction down here for many years - sounds like the same course for felling. When they started the courses, everything was covered in one course. Now, they've split the felling off into a separate course from limbing and bucking. So that means another weekend away from my family.:(

I guess I've been lucky - I've only had to use wedges on two or three trees in the last 20 years - one of those was a monster that was in a friend's backyard and DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to the house. My big saw has a 16 inch bar, and I couldn't bore completely through it from one side - talk about a challenge! (Especially with all of the neighbors watching!!!)

[The Weasel]

There are folks out there who know more than I do, but I'll put in my two cent's worth. Trail maintenence that is not performed by or under the supervision of a local trail club (or the ATC) is discouraged, mainly because, without knowing it, ordinary folks can do things that do not meet maintenence standards (like painting blazes every 30 feet!). There are special regulations that apply in designated wilderness areas - the big thing here is that no power tools are permitted. But as far as I know, hand tools are permitted here. (We have no designated wilderness areas where I am, so I'll defer to those with more knowledge.)

Shelter:

Thanks, and I'll give an example. Several years ago, I led my Scout Troop (10 of us) in the Otter Creek Wilderness in WV. There was an extended stretch of trail - about 100 feet - that had been fully washed out in a massive storm. A Ranger joined us for dinner one night and told us that since it was a national wilderness area, trail maintenance was not allowed, including rebuilding that stretch of trail.

The Weasel

[shelterbuilder]

Shelter:

Thanks, and I'll give an example. Several years ago, I led my Scout Troop (10 of us) in the Otter Creek Wilderness in WV. There was an extended stretch of trail - about 100 feet - that had been fully washed out in a massive storm. A Ranger joined us for dinner one night and told us that since it was a national wilderness area, trail maintenance was not allowed, including rebuilding that stretch of trail.

The Weasel

I did a quick search on Otter Creek - it appears as though this area is under different management policies than the AT. Much stricter management geared toward a "natural" environment. I think that things may be different along the AT, even in those areas designated "wilderness". I'm certain about the "no power tools" rule, but I would think that clearing blowdowns by hand would be permitted. (Again, I may be speaking from consumate ignorance! It happens from time to time.)

[The Weasel]

I did a quick search on Otter Creek - it appears as though this area is under different management policies than the AT. Much stricter management geared toward a "natural" environment. I think that things may be different along the AT, even in those areas designated "wilderness". I'm certain about the "no power tools" rule, but I would think that clearing blowdowns by hand would be permitted. (Again, I may be speaking from consumate ignorance! It happens from time to time.)

Shelter --

The AT has a number of jurisdictions for properties it passes through: The NPS, Forest Service, and states. Most of the AT is NOT "wilderness area" designated, but some IS. My question is, for designated "wilderness areas" like Otter Creek is, do people clear/restore trails despite the "do not take any action" rules for Wilderness Areas?

The Weasel

[Tha Wookie]

I hear next year every knife-wielding hiker will have to get a toten chip badge and wear their socks to their knees.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Any chance a course specifically for those doing trail maintenance could be developed? One that covered all of the necessary components in a single weekend or two for first timers and then a single weekend for refreshers? This would seem to be the best way to deal with the OSHA requirements if they cannot be waived for trail maintainers in NPs. Do loggers have to do all this? I've met some... ah... umm... interesting fellows on logging crews while out bushwacking. I cannot see some of these gentlemen having passed the CPR and First aid courses I've had to take.

[warraghiyagey]

I know all the legal experts and wannabes will have an answer to this, but why not have a waiver? Wouldn't that answer the problem of volunteer numbers plummeting because now rather than just volunteer they have to jump through hoops to do so. The fact is many trail folk grew up around axes saws, chain saws, trees, brush, fallen trees and the like.
Wouldn't many of them be able to teach safety in this entirety as much as those they would have to sit and listen to for how many days and dollars as well as those we would be sent to just to get even a day of trail maintenance.
I wanted to help with Katrina and would have stayed there for weeks when a church group was scheduled to go there to help. As I've worked with buildings most of my life it was naturally something I wanted to do. What surprised me was that they were all flying down (I thought maybe a couple of vans) and after the sum for just a week of helping was added up, it would have cost me over a thousande dollars, basically pricing me out of volunteering. I couldhave helped. I wonder how much other help has been priced outof these situations.
I want to do trail maintenance in Maine this spring but can't justify the extra time to take courses I and many others could teach. I'm hoping I can find a way. Imagine what one could do in two days on the trail with the local maintainer as opposed to sitting in a class. I'd sign a waiver and go to work.
As I hiked through Trolls section in June I saw the benefits of the maintainers work and want to be part of it. I can give back a lot better with a saw or axe in my glove hands than sitting in a class. Thisiswhat I wish to do. I doubt I'm alone.

[shelterbuilder]

Shelter --

The AT has a number of jurisdictions for properties it passes through: The NPS, Forest Service, and states. Most of the AT is NOT "wilderness area" designated, but some IS. My question is, for designated "wilderness areas" like Otter Creek is, do people clear/restore trails despite the "do not take any action" rules for Wilderness Areas?

The Weasel

Otter Creek appears to be National Forest, not National Park, so there are probably different rules for National Forest land than for the AT. I can tell you this: if there is a "take no action" rule, and someone does "take action" and they get caught, they will be in a heap of trouble!

[The Weasel]

War---

I sympathize with what you want to do, but just think for a minute: Isn't it possible that some of this training might teach you some safety skills you don't know now?

I remember the Steve McQueen line from "The Magnificent Seven," when he says, "Fella jumped off the top of a saloon once. Each floor he went past, he yelled, 'I'm fine so far!'"

If you want to help, check the maintainers sites nearest you, but get the training they require. It's for their sake, as well as for yours.

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Otter Creek appears to be National Forest, not National Park, so there are probably different rules for National Forest land than for the AT. I can tell you this: if there is a "take no action" rule, and someone does "take action" and they get caught, they will be in a heap of trouble!

Shelt-

Yes, its part of Monongahela NF (by the way, it's an INCREDIBLE place to visit...one of my favorite Wildneress Areas).

I think the rules on Wilderness are the same for all fed lands, though. Keep in mind that I'm talking about formally designated Wilderness Areas.

The Weasel

[warraghiyagey]

War---

I sympathize with what you want to do, but just think for a minute: Isn't it possible that some of this training might teach you some safety skills you don't know now?

I remember the Steve McQueen line from "The Magnificent Seven," when he says, "Fella jumped off the top of a saloon once. Each floor he went past, he yelled, 'I'm fine so far!'"

If you want to help, check the maintainers sites nearest you, but get the training they require. It's for their sake, as well as for yours.

The Weasel

True, I understand that, but as I say, some of us may be as experienced and had the trianing that the very trainers have. I've taken CPR and advanced life saving every five years since college and fine that I haven't learned anything new. Because I kept up along the way. Like the work in the woods that I do. Or ladder work. I do it regularly. I'm not sure another safety course would benefit me in those categories.
I'd rather spend my time doing the work. One can always suggest more training or refresher courses but if it's what you do regularly where is the time benefit. OUr time is so finite that many of us have things we wish to do and know we'll never get to.
Getting certified in Maine would take away time I'd like to help on the trail. If I want to do something I have no experience in then I want to learn it. Otherwise, I want to do it.:)

[shelterbuilder]

Any chance a course specifically for those doing trail maintenance could be developed? One that covered all of the necessary components in a single weekend or two for first timers and then a single weekend for refreshers? This would seem to be the best way to deal with the OSHA requirements if they cannot be waived for trail maintainers in NPs. Do loggers have to do all this? I've met some... ah... umm... interesting fellows on logging crews while out bushwacking. I cannot see some of these gentlemen having passed the CPR and First aid courses I've had to take.

FD, I think that most of the trail maintaining clubs probably have their own training for hand tool use - I know that when I first started maintaining trail, I went on trips led by experienced maintainers who showed me how to use - and how NOT to use - the various hand tools that we had. And I stayed with hand tools for several years. The OHSA requirements only come into play with power tools. And while I'm certain that OSHA has requirements for the logging industry, I don't know what they are, so I can't really speak to that.

Logging is one of the most hazardous industries out there, and if you've ever seen pictures of some of the accidents that have occurred, you'd think twice about ever wanting to be a logger. Chains can break while being used, trees can twist in a wind and fall the wrong way, people can slip or misstep - the safety training that is being provided (free of charge!) and the safety equipment that is being provided (also free) is top-notch, BUT, my gripe is that if something goes wrong out there and I get seriously hurt, I'm either going to be dead when I hit the ground or very shortly thereafter - the first aid /CPR that _I_ have will not enable me to save myself. And since I'm so far removed from the EMS system, even with a dozen trained people on-site, I'm still probably not going to make it out alive. We still need first aid/CPR training, but it needs to be someone other than the sawyer.

[shelterbuilder]

True, I understand that, but as I say, some of us may be as experienced and had the trianing that the very trainers have. I've taken CPR and advanced life saving every five years since college and fine that I haven't learned anything new. Because I kept up along the way. Like the work in the woods that I do. Or ladder work. I do it regularly. I'm not sure another safety course would benefit me in those categories.
I'd rather spend my time doing the work. One can always suggest more training or refresher courses but if it's what you do regularly where is the time benefit. OUr time is so finite that many of us have things we wish to do and know we'll never get to.
Getting certified in Maine would take away time I'd like to help on the trail. If I want to do something I have no experience in then I want to learn it. Otherwise, I want to do it.:)

War -

You don't need to go to Maine to get certified - check with NY/NJ ATC - I'm sure that they'll be co-sponsoring a training workshop somewhere closer to you. OR join the club, become a maintainer BUT only use hand tools (that's what I did for years).

[The Weasel]

War---

If you've been taking CPR every 5 years since college - I assume that's more than 10 years - you know that CPR certification generally is generally for 1 year (sometimes 2). And you also know that CPR has changed a lot over the years. Logging/maintenance/saw safety has changed a lot, too.

As I said, these things aren't just for your safety, but for the safety of others. Not everyone on a trail crew knows each other. But if you can look at someone you've never met and know they have a minimum level of training, just by being there, you - and others - have a greater sense of confidence.

Training is good. It's part of the service itself.

The Weasel

[warraghiyagey]

War---

If you've been taking CPR every 5 years since college - I assume that's more than 10 years - you know that CPR certification generally is generally for 1 year (sometimes 2). And you also know that CPR has changed a lot over the years. Logging/maintenance/saw safety has changed a lot, too.

As I said, these things aren't just for your safety, but for the safety of others. Not everyone on a trail crew knows each other. But if you can look at someone you've never met and know they have a minimum level of training, just by being there, you - and others - have a greater sense of confidence.

Training is good. It's part of the service itself.

The Weasel

True, even the act of CPR itself has been called into question these last few months by the medical community. I'm just not sure how much training should be mandatory for experienced woods people removing brush and knocking out a chunk of blowdown over the trail. For folks who want to with little or no experience I certainly see the point, but what about the many who have as much or more past and current experience as the trainers and maintainers themselves.
At what point do we say 'you need the training' and not 'you are capable as you are thanks for the help,' good to have you on board. There are things I want to do with my life that I have yet to learn. Working in the woods is not one of them. But for those things I look forward to and embrace the training.

Like CPR, as you say, is required every year. Advanced life saving every three of you must teach the course during that time. If I were looking for a lifegaurding job I' go take the course again. If I were to do any work in the woods for anyone, let alone volunteer trail maintenance, I wouldn't even consider going for more training, as the other trades that I'm ivolved with, I'll go if I need to know more. But if I do it every day or at least frequently, going for training to do something I'm already comfortable with and adept at, it is time not well spent.
Doing trail maintenance is time well spent.

[weary]

[QUOTE=weary;402918]

Wow. Last year I cut a dozen blowdowns, at least, in two hundred yards and that was in a 4 mile section. Mostly dead wood.

I learned a lot with Lester Kenway at my certification and would go back again if I had to. It is better than getting hurt and I have used a saw for many years. Just the work with springpoles was worth it.
There are always exceptions to the general rule.
But I maintaiined two and a half miles of the AT and side trails for 25 years or so. And my claim that a typical trail maintainer only rarely cuts down a tree. Rather they clear a path through maybe three or four blowdowns -- possibly a dozen -- in a season. At least that was my experience.

I don't oppose offering training to maintainers. The more training the better. I just think that making two days every three years plus first aid and CPR certification mandatory is overkill. As do many Maine maintainers and at least two of our five overseers, one of whom has quit in protest.

The rules dealing with the trail are based on the training the US Forest Service requires of wood land fire fighters.

I've never been a fire fighter in the National Forests, but I suspect those needs are greatly different than the needs of a typical trail maintainer.

A fire fighter often has to clear a fire break quickly. No maintainer is required to clear blow downs quickly -- even when faced with a dozen in 400 feet. It doesn't take two days of training to teach maintainers to go slow, and safely, to analyze each blowdown carefully and to cut only when they feel it is safe to do so.

The training should be based on the kind of cutting maintainers face regularly, not the kind of cutting often faced by fire fighters.

Some instructors like Lester Kenway modify the training to touch on the special needs of maintainers, but they still are required to cover all the forest service guidelines or they will lose their instructor's certificate.

I personally never cut down a standing tree of any size. Some maintainers, however, construct bog bridges, requiring the milling of large logs. It's my understanding that the forest service does not require training in log milling, even though it is among the most dangerous things maintainers do.

All training is useful, I'm sure. But I have yet to see any evidence that the required training is geared to the special needs of trail maintainers, and the time constraints faced by many maintainers with family and job responsibilities.

Weary

[woodsy]

Weary and a few others on this thread speak sensibly about the issue.
It's not that big a deal running a chainsaw through a few blowdowns every year. Some years more blowdowns than others.
In this age of litigation everywhere, the NPS is running scared cause someone might hurt themselves working on their property and we all know there is a lawyer in the bushes waiting for it to happen.
I've got two Huskvana chainsaws(351+359models) and can keep up with the best of em. It doesn't look like the trail will see either one of them at this point.

[Mr. Clean]

Well, I keep hoping for something fairly close to me since free time with little kids in the house gets rare. But I'm leaning toward corridor monitoring, that might be fun, though I'm sure I'll need to take that class, and there goes the time thing again.


If you are a member of MATC and you get The Maintainer newspaper, there are openings in just about every issue. Are you looking for a particular place in Maine? Are you just looking in the AMC AT area south of Grafton Notch?

Today I applied for a new section with easier access. I gave up a section that was a 13 mile round trip including a 3 mile approach.

[The Weasel]

Weary and a few others on this thread speak sensibly about the issue.
It's not that big a deal running a chainsaw through a few blowdowns every year. Some years more blowdowns than others.
In this age of litigation everywhere, the NPS is running scared cause someone might hurt themselves working on their property and we all know there is a lawyer in the bushes waiting for it to happen.
I've got two Huskvana chainsaws(351+359models) and can keep up with the best of em. It doesn't look like the trail will see either one of them at this point.

woodsy,

I share your concern, but i also hope you and others know that training isn't just for safety osf saw users, but to protect others who are near the saw user, too.

The Weasel

[Appalachian Tater]

training isn't just for safety of saw users, but to protect others who are near the saw user, too.

'Specially since most maintenance is done near the trail!

[Jester2000]

Getting certified in Maine would take away time I'd like to help on the trail. If I want to do something I have no experience in then I want to learn it. Otherwise, I want to do it.:)

Maintain away; just don't use power tools.


[QUOTE=walkin' wally;404045]
All training is useful, I'm sure. But I have yet to see any evidence that the required training is geared to the special needs of trail maintainers, and the time constraints faced by many maintainers with family and job responsibilities.
Weary

I just don't get it, I suppose. Are there really trail related individuals out there who are in such a bind time-wise that three days out of 1,095 is a major commitment?

I suspect that at heart is an understandable resentment at both the imposition of new rules and not being told how to do something that one feels they already know how to do. But time constraints? Really?

[mudhead]

You might have pegged it...

[Wanderingson]

OK, I couldn't help myself.

Worries of people lobbing off extremities gets me thinking about "it's only a flesh wound".

For those who may not be up on this, please feel free to click on the link below:

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-04.htm

[walkin' wally]

If folks have a fear of chainsaws then maybe they should not be using them but I think if you use one you should do yourself a favor and take the course.
I took the course before there was a 'mandatory' issue.
As a former river driver for the Kennebec Log Driving Co. I have used a saw long before I started to have an interest in the AT. I still found the course useful.
It is not worth getting hurt no matter what the politics are.
According to Lester Kenway the former head of the trail system at Baxter Park the most common injury is a laceration to the left upper thigh. That put it close to the femoral artery. Go figure.
Some instruction in dealing with widowmakers, kickback,springpoles, escape routes and other hazards are useful.
Just my opinion

[walkin' wally]

[QUOTE=walkin' wally;404045]
There are always exceptions to the general rule.
But I maintaiined two and a half miles of the AT and side trails for 25 years or so. And my claim that a typical trail maintainer only rarely cuts down a tree. Rather they clear a path through maybe three or four blowdowns -- possibly a dozen -- in a season. At least that was my experience.
Weary


Well I think you are a lucky guy because I never had any less the 30 or 40 blowdowns to cut on my section. The last 2 years were much much worse than that.

I never cut a standing tree either, I have to much work laying on the ground in front of me to bother with that. You still have springpoles to deal with. Try getting one of those up side the head.

This course is what the Maine Appalachian Trail Club was offering and I took advantage of it. It was good training with the emphasis on safety. It was free.

You are a member of the MATC so maybe you should change the curriculum to fit the "special needs of maintainers".

By the way don't people who do relo's cut down trees?

[Old Hillwalker]

I agree with WalkingWally in the above post. Little things like left thumb position, proper chain brake useage, and proper saw maintenance opened my eyes to things that I had ignored since I became a contract trail maintainer for the USFS in the early eighties. I recieved my "B" Level Sawyer after two days of training and received my chaps, helmet, and trauma pack free of charge. The course was also free since I was a maintainer working with an AT servicing club. The other six people taking the course received "A" level certs due to lack of prior experiance for the most part. Hint: If you go wear your dirty chaps, suspenders and your old Carharts. It also helps if you smell slightly and need a shave:D

[shelterbuilder]

I'm curious - you folks in Maine: do you take your chainsaws out in groups where there are several sawyers, do you have one sawyer per crew, or (gasp!) do you take your saws out by yourselves, with no extra help?

[shelterbuilder]

...or should I not ask?

[weary]

By the way don't people who do relo's cut down trees?
Of course, though relo's are beoming increasingly rare. I will always encourage everyone using a chain saw to get instruction. I just don't think, in view of the low number of reported accidents, that days of lessons, every three years, is always needed.

[weary]

I'm curious - you folks in Maine: do you take your chainsaws out in groups where there are several sawyers, do you have one sawyer per crew, or (gasp!) do you take your saws out by yourselves, with no extra help?
The latter is the correct choice. We have one of the best maintained sections of the entire trail because one person is assigned each trail section. That person is solely responsible for clearing blowdowns and keeping the trail clear of in growth. Most work with friends, co workers, and neighbors, but rarely is more than one chain saw on a maintaining trip.

This system is pretty mandatory in Maine, which is responsible for 275 miles of trail, and has only 600 members of its maintaining club (MATC).

Trail clubs with thousands of members and relatively fewer trail miles per member, have the luxury of group maintenance trips. Though the luxury has its costs. when a group is responsible for a section, no one is truly responsible. In Maine when we find a poorly maintained section we know who is responsible. He either shapes up or moves on to other chores -- like putting out the club newsletters.

Weary

[shelterbuilder]

The latter is the correct choice. We have one of the best maintained sections of the entire trail because one person is assigned each trail section. That person is solely responsible for clearing blowdowns and keeping the trail clear of in growth. Most work with friends, co workers, and neighbors, but rarely is more than one chain saw on a maintaining trip.

This system is pretty mandatory in Maine, which is responsible for 275 miles of trail, and has only 600 members of its maintaining club (MATC).

Trail clubs with thousands of members and relatively fewer trail miles per member, have the luxury of group maintenance trips. Though the luxury has its costs. when a group is responsible for a section, no one is truly responsible. In Maine when we find a poorly maintained section we know who is responsible. He either shapes up or moves on to other chores -- like putting out the club newsletters.

Weary

God, how I wish that I could get my friends and co-workers to come out and help me with my section - most of them think I'm nuts for doing something that I don't get paid for!:eek: But I guess that's an entirely different thread.

[Krewzer]

If folks have a fear of chainsaws then maybe they should not be using them but I think if you use one you should do yourself a favor and take the course.


I agree with this 100%. But will add, a little bit of fear and respect is a good thing. My old pole climbing instructor said, "nobody falls when they're afraid of falling. It's when you're not, that's when it happens." A little bit of fear keeps you on your toes, makes you pay attention, do things right.

There are a lot things that can go wrong when using a chain saw and many of them at the same time. Anybody that's been using one for a while, will tell you that. If you want to use one, it's a very good idea to know what you're getting into.

I don't think there is such a thing as too much education. I've used saws off and on for a good long time, but haven't had the chainsaw cerification course, but if it was available in my area I'd take it.

It's free, isn't it?

The CPR thing is confusing. But don't most first aid courses include CPR training these days? It seems like that would be the link between "chainsaw" certification and CPR.

[shelterbuilder]

I agree with this 100%. But will add, a little bit of fear and respect is a good thing. My old pole climbing instructor said, "nobody falls when they're afraid of falling. It's when you're not, that's when it happens." A little bit of fear keeps you on your toes, makes you pay attention, do things right.
There are a lot things that can go wrong when using a chain saw and many of them at the same time. Anybody that's been using one for a while, will tell you that. If you want to use one, it's a very good idea to know what you're getting into.
I don't think there is such a thing as too much education. I've used saws off and on for a good long time, but haven't had the chainsaw cerification course, but if it was available in my area I'd take it.
It's free, isn't it?
The CPR thing is confusing. But don't most first aid courses include CPR training these days? It seems like that would be the link between "chainsaw" certification and CPR.

Yes, the course is free, and so is the safety equipment, if you pass the course. The first aid/CPR requirement makes no sense to me, because if YOU need it, YOU can't help yourself - SOMEONE ELSE has to help you. But NPS is requiring it of the sawyers for the certification to be valid.

[walkin' wally]

God, how I wish that I could get my friends and co-workers to come out and help me with my section - most of them think I'm nuts for doing something that I don't get paid for!:eek: But I guess that's an entirely different thread.


I never had any help and I am out there alone with the saw. I like to take a moment to think about what I am going to do with a particular blowdown before I start to cut it. It helps me to look around a little bit so I don't have any suprises. I also dont like to hit rocks or wire that can be found along old tote roads that the AT in my area follows.

This makes a very long day and sometimes miore than one day for that matter.

I do like being in the woods next to the lake after ice out in the spring. There is no one around and no bugs either. It is very quiet and peaceful at least until I start the saw :D

[walkin' wally]

I agree with this 100%. But will add, a little bit of fear and respect is a good thing. My old pole climbing instructor said, "nobody falls when they're afraid of falling. It's when you're not, that's when it happens." A little bit of fear keeps you on your toes, makes you pay attention, do things right.

There are a lot things that can go wrong when using a chain saw and many of them at the same time. Anybody that's been using one for a while, will tell you that. If you want to use one, it's a very good idea to know what you're getting into.

I don't think there is such a thing as too much education. I've used saws off and on for a good long time, but haven't had the chainsaw cerification course, but if it was available in my area I'd take it.

It's free, isn't it?

The CPR thing is confusing. But don't most first aid courses include CPR training these days? It seems like that would be the link between "chainsaw" certification and CPR.

I think this is a good post on this subject.

Every time I start my saw I ask myself what this can do to me. Yes it certainly deserves respect. You are right.

I was more interested in the first aid section of the course than the CPR.

This has already been said but.
The person in Maine who gave up the overseer's job and his section to maintain put it this way; (Not a direct quote) He said CPR in the wilderness setting was an effort in futility. He also pointed out that no one has yet figured out how to self-administer the same.

I'm sure some one here has the numbers, but we were told that CPR even in best cases does not have a high success rate at least without an AED or A.C.L.S. or something similar. Time is of the essence in this situation.

I see value in the first aid section though. Shock, bleeding and such. I get mine free every year or two with the HAZ-MAT team that I belong to. I did not have to take a first aid course with the training.

I think if folks look around in their area they may find a First Aid/CPR course at low cost or free. I just presented my current certification at the beginning of the chainsaw training and that was it.

[shelterbuilder]

...Every time I start my saw I ask myself what this can do to me. Yes it certainly deserves respect. You are right...The person in Maine who gave up the overseer's job and his section to maintain put it this way; (Not a direct quote) He said CPR in the wilderness setting was an effort in futility. He also pointed out that no one has yet figured out how to self-administer the same... but we were told that CPR even in best cases does not have a high success rate at least without an AED or A.C.L.S. or something similar. Time is of the essence in this situation.
I think if folks look around in their area they may find a First Aid/CPR course at low cost or free. I just presented my current certification at the beginning of the chainsaw training and that was it.

Down here (Pa.) they will let you take the course without proving that you have the first aid/CPR certification, but they also tell you that the chainsaw certification isn't valid unless/until you have the first aid/CPR.

I agree that if you need CPR and you are off the grid, you've probably had it. I have a 2 1/2 mile section south of the William Penn Shelter; the shelter is almost 2 miles in from the road. If something goes wrong out there, I'm toast!:( It doesn't matter how many folks are along for the show. The safety issues that are taught in the course are the things that I think about every time I fire up the saw.

[Mr. Clean]

I think that most folk will agree that some certification is a good thing, but is this too much? I do like the idea of a cut back refresher instead of a full-blown class after the initial course. And yes, two days every three years is cutting into my time, not sure about others. It's hard enough to find time to do trail work, then to have to sit through a two day class every three years for a volunteer worker, to me it's excessive. With everything that life brings our way, whether we like it or not, time is a precious commodity. I hope the AT doesn't suffer several years from now when enough certified sawyers can't be found to properly maintain the trail.

[shelterbuilder]

I think that most folk will agree that some certification is a good thing, but is this too much? I do like the idea of a cut back refresher instead of a full-blown class after the initial course. And yes, two days every three years is cutting into my time, not sure about others. It's hard enough to find time to do trail work, then to have to sit through a two day class every three years for a volunteer worker, to me it's excessive. With everything that life brings our way, whether we like it or not, time is a precious commodity. I hope the AT doesn't suffer several years from now when enough certified sawyers can't be found to properly maintain the trail.

Well, if enough certified volunteers can't be found, NPS will have to pony up and hire paid personnel to do the job! Maybe they don't realize this!:eek:

[The Weasel]

Shelter: It's not for you. I'll give an example. You're using your chainsaw. You're with someone else. They become injured during the project in any of a number of ways related to the work you're doing. They need CPR. You're there. You have the training.

Safety training isn't just for the trainee's safety, but for the safety and protection of others.


The Weasel

[weary]

I think that most folk will agree that some certification is a good thing, but is this too much? I do like the idea of a cut back refresher instead of a full-blown class after the initial course. And yes, two days every three years is cutting into my time, not sure about others. It's hard enough to find time to do trail work, then to have to sit through a two day class every three years for a volunteer worker, to me it's excessive. With everything that life brings our way, whether we like it or not, time is a precious commodity. I hope the AT doesn't suffer several years from now when enough certified sawyers can't be found to properly maintain the trail.
To be honest, it's not always a matter of the hours involved, but of the timing involved. Two chain saw courses are offered annually in Maine. The fundamental rule seems to be these days, "if you need something done, ask a busy person to do it." Only a few busy people, by and large, maintain the trail. And for that matter do all the other things society seeks from volunteers.

A lot of us are pretty booked up, even retirees. It may take a decade to both find a chainsaw training course and a free weekend to take it. As I look at my calendar, I worry that I may not last long enough to get that required training in!

Weary www.matlt.org

[woodsy]

Safety training isn't just for the trainee's safety, but for the safety and protection of others.


The Weasel
but i also hope you and others know that training isn't just for safety osf saw users, but to protect others who are near the saw user, too.

The Weasel
As I said, these things aren't just for your safety, but for the safety of others.
The Weasel
OK The Weasel, We get where you're coming from already. I ain't buying it though. This is about Maintainer safety, not others. They usually work alone anyway.

[Jester2000]

I hope the AT doesn't suffer several years from now when enough certified sawyers can't be found to properly maintain the trail.

It'll be okay. It'll just look like the northern part of the Long Trail.

[walkin' wally]

To be honest, it's not always a matter of the hours involved, but of the timing involved. Two chain saw courses are offered annually in Maine. The fundamental rule seems to be these days, "if you need something done, ask a busy person to do it." Only a few busy people, by and large, maintain the trail. And for that matter do all the other things society seeks from volunteers.

A lot of us are pretty booked up, even retirees. It may take a decade to both find a chainsaw training course and a free weekend to take it. As I look at my calendar, I worry that I may not last long enough to get that required training in!

Weary www.matlt.org

I will admit that it took me about three years before my time off could match the scheduled dates of the training. I work a compressed schedule with about half the year off and the dates still would not match for three years. I don't want to quit maintaing a section though just because of this. I hope this just come to a reasonable solution. It would be too bad if the trail is going to suffer because of this. I have not heard of many maintainers quitting yet. Have you?

I just got a new section in Monson yesterday. :banana

[Lyle]

We are going through the same discussions regarding the North Country Trail. I just returned today from the Partnership for the National Scenic and Historic Trails System Conference, and this topic was discussed there also. A couple of points to remember:
1) Anyone volunteering to work on the trail are covered by the NPS, NFS or BLM insurance for any injuries sustained. As such they feel compelled (for good reason) to require the same training standards for volunteers as they do for their own employees.
2) Many experienced sawyers have expressed surprise at how much they learned when they participated in these courses.

Several ideas are being looked at to ease the problems of scheduling and reduce the inconvienience for the volunteers. These include the possibility of developing other training institutions besides the Forest Service to provide this training, and possibly developing an agreed-upon curriculum for the volunteers that could possibly be taught by other volunteers.

Unfortunately, for the time being, turf wars and buracracy have the upper hand. I just wanted to assure everyone that this is a problem common to all National Scenic Trails, and people are working to provide better solutions.

The training is a good thing. What needs to be adressed is the implimentation of the required training. As far as the first aid requirement, at least a sawyer could instruct others as to what to do. He would also be able to assist any assistants that may have been standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[clicker]

I am a trained tree climber and our company had all employees take a chainsaw training course for insurance purposes. I learned a few new things, but some of the newbies at our company learned a lot. Many had grown up using saws for firewood or around farms. But they still new very little about saw safety. Another thing we noticed was after the course, on the job efficiency was improved. People knew how to work more smoothly together. It never ceases to amaze me how people treat saws, they think they are invincible. But I have also seen what a chainsaw can do to a person, and they can do alot of damage in a small amount of time.

Another thing is most unexperienced people don't understand what a tree can do when you begin to cut it up. The amount of stress on a limb of a fallen tree can be substantial and can do a fair amount of damage to a person if cut the wrong way.

A little bit of training can go a long way to keep people safe and get things done quickly and efficiently out there.

Just my thoughts.

[Jester2000]

We are going through the same discussions regarding the North Country Trail. I just returned today from the Partnership for the National Scenic and Historic Trails System Conference, and this topic was discussed there also. A couple of points to remember:
1) Anyone volunteering to work on the trail are covered by the NPS, NFS or BLM insurance for any injuries sustained. As such they feel compelled (for good reason) to require the same training standards for volunteers as they do for their own employees.
2) Many experienced sawyers have expressed surprise at how much they learned when they participated in these courses.

Several ideas are being looked at to ease the problems of scheduling and reduce the inconvienience for the volunteers. These include the possibility of developing other training institutions besides the Forest Service to provide this training, and possibly developing an agreed-upon curriculum for the volunteers that could possibly be taught by other volunteers.

Unfortunately, for the time being, turf wars and buracracy have the upper hand. I just wanted to assure everyone that this is a problem common to all National Scenic Trails, and people are working to provide better solutions.

The training is a good thing. What needs to be adressed is the implimentation of the required training. As far as the first aid requirement, at least a sawyer could instruct others as to what to do. He would also be able to assist any assistants that may have been standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I was going to comment on what a sensible post this was, and then I saw the Bryce Canyon to Cape Henlopen thing in '80 -'81, and I realized that you are a crazy person.

[Lyle]

Thanks Jester, I think.

1980-81 was a VERY GOOD YEAR. I hope I am never forced to submit to treatment if I am indeed crazy - just let me be to enjoy myself with the rest of you crazies.

[SGT Rock]

Shelter: It's not for you. I'll give an example. You're using your chainsaw. You're with someone else. They become injured during the project in any of a number of ways related to the work you're doing. They need CPR. You're there. You have the training.

Safety training isn't just for the trainee's safety, but for the safety and protection of others.


The Weasel
Well I agree and disagree. When you get the training it is to help other people - duh. You cannot do CPR on yourself. But this isn't a volunteer program for ridge-running where you go in with a different set of priorities.

It is about mission analysis and cost/benefit analysis. Otherwise you can take this to any level. If you decide a sawyer needs to be able to save a life just in case because they are there, then you can start to add any other requirement to this as well such as carrying a AED and IVs with nasopharyngeal airways, needle decompression training, require SKEDs in case they have to evacuate (since they are normally alone) and any number of "Good Idea Fairy" requirements because if CPR makes sense now (despite all the obvious flaws) then to fix those problems to actually make CPR vital we could really go deep in this and make it almost impossible to do any cutting. If a realistic risk assessment was done then we would take CPR off the Required Training list and make it a suggested class and then include some other suggested classes as well which would be a great idea. Making everything some GIF comes up with mandatory is a PITA and generally pisses off the volunteers. Last time I worked recruiting the idea was to give positive incentives to volunteers, not make it a PITA to volunteer.

But back to the risk/benefit analysis. If you need volunteers, then you have to make it a system that makes it as convenient for volunteers as possible to do the training. I don't think anyone is totally against training, they only want the training to make sense and for that training system to promote volunteerism, not create problems with it.

[shelterbuilder]

Well I agree and disagree. When you get the training it is to help other people - duh. You cannot do CPR on yourself. But this isn't a volunteer program for ridge-running where you go in with a different set of priorities.

It is about mission analysis and cost/benefit analysis. Otherwise you can take this to any level. If you decide a sawyer needs to be able to save a life just in case because they are there, then you can start to add any other requirement to this as well such as carrying a AED and IVs with nasopharyngeal airways, needle decompression training, require SKEDs in case they have to evacuate (since they are normally alone) and any number of "Good Idea Fairy" requirements because if CPR makes sense now (despite all the obvious flaws) then to fix those problems to actually make CPR vital we could really go deep in this and make it almost impossible to do any cutting. If a realistic risk assessment was done then we would take CPR off the Required Training list and make it a suggested class and then include some other suggested classes as well which would be a great idea. Making everything some GIF comes up with mandatory is a PITA and generally pisses off the volunteers. Last time I worked recruiting the idea was to give positive incentives to volunteers, not make it a PITA to volunteer.

But back to the risk/benefit analysis. If you need volunteers, then you have to make it a system that makes it as convenient for volunteers as possible to do the training. I don't think anyone is totally against training, they only want the training to make sense and for that training system to promote volunteerism, not create problems with it.

Well, we'll know that we're in trouble when they start sending MASH units out with the sawyers!:D

No, I'm not saying that the training is worthless - just the opposite: I've learned so much from the instructors in the training sessions (in fact, I'm trying to set things up to take the next "felling" workshop when it's offered), and everything that I learn makes me a safer worker. But coupling the certificaton with first aid/CPR means that I have to find yet another day in my schedule that I can (must) be away from my family and my other pursuits.

When I'm working with the saw, _I_ make certain that no one is within the danger zone before I even start the saw. People know what I'm doing before I start doing it, and they know to stay clear. If anyone is getting hurt, it's likely to be me - the guy with the power saw. If I get hurt, I don't want to have to talk somebody else through the process of saving my life, and if I'm the one with the first aid training, that's exactly what will happen.:eek: (Besides, someone who is not currently certified is liable if they render aid and something goes wrong - they exceeded the limits of their training! No, we won't be sueing, but that's a consideration from the other guy's point of view.)

[Lyle]

(Besides, someone who is not currently certified is liable if they render aid and something goes wrong - they exceeded the limits of their training! No, we won't be sueing, but that's a consideration from the other guy's point of view.)


Liability is a mute point. Every state has enacted Good Samaritan laws which were originally meant to protect Doctors and Nurses from being held to the same standards when in the field that they would be in a fully equipped office or hospital.

The courts and legislatures have expanded these to protect anyone with any training who, in good faith, renders aid. As long as an individual does nothing intentional to harm the patient or grossely outside the realm of their training (such as suturing a wound, setting a fractured limb, or surgically removing an impaled object) the law protects them from being held liable for damages. Basic first aid training does not cover anything that could possibly get a person in trouble, currently certified or not.

[shelterbuilder]

(Besides, someone who is not currently certified is liable if they render aid and something goes wrong - they exceeded the limits of their training! No, we won't be sueing, but that's a consideration from the other guy's point of view.)


Liability is a mute point. Every state has enacted Good Samaritan laws which were originally meant to protect Doctors and Nurses from being held to the same standards when in the field that they would be in a fully equipped office or hospital.

The courts and legislatures have expanded these to protect anyone with any training who, in good faith, renders aid. As long as an individual does nothing intentional to harm the patient or grossely outside the realm of their training (such as suturing a wound, setting a fractured limb, or surgically removing an impaled object) the law protects them from being held liable for damages. Basic first aid training does not cover anything that could possibly get a person in trouble, currently certified or not.

Okay, let's say that you and I are out cutting blowdowns on the trail. Neither of us has had any first aid training. My chain breaks and slings itself off of the bar, slicing through my safety chaps and leaving my leg with a nasty gash. There's blood everywhere. You rig up a tourniquet on my leg to stop the bleeding, and go for help. In the hospital, the doctors amputate my leg, because of the needless use of the tourniquet. Are you liable??

[Lyle]

I would say if I had no training, and was attempting to save you, I would be aquitted. The standard most courts will use is what a similarly trained individual would do under similar circumstances. Since I honestly thought I was doing the right thing to save you, you would be hard pressed to win a civil suit. There would be no criminal prosecution. If you were unconscious, then the law allows me to help based on "implied consent" - the idea that the typical person under those circumstances would want help. If you were conscious, and you did not protest or remove the tourniquet, then you in effect consented to it.

Now, if I had led you to believe that I did have training, that would be another matter all together.

Also, if you have taken a first aid class that encouraged the use of tourniquets, then it's time for another class. If mentioned, they should come with a very strong disclaimer that they are a LAST RESORT, and that you are choosing the patient's life over their limb. In over 20 years of full-time EMS work, I have never used a tourniquet or seen one used. They just aren't necessary in the VAST VAST majority of cases.

Now my disclaimer: I am not an attorney, don't even play one on TV. I am a first aid, CPR, and licensed EMS Instructor for over 20 years.

Weasel, wanna chime in here?

[shelterbuilder]

My original problem still stands - I don't want to have to talk someone through the basics of rendering first aid to me if I get hurt out there - I would much prefer it if the person rendering aid knew what he/she was doing before they started working on me.

And, no, all of my first aid instructors have all said the same thing RE: tourniquets - life or limb, last resort.

[Appalachian Tater]

I know one case where a tourniquet was used on a kid about 17 years old trapped in a car for a couple of hours with a traumatic leg amputation while they tried to get him out. Course he had already lost the leg.

[SGT Rock]

These days a combat casualty normally goes straight to torniquet. But then again getting shot or blown up goes straight to worst case bleeding. When I sliced my leg open a couple of years back doing trail maintenance it was handled by a pressure dressing and manual pressure then getting back to town with some super glue.