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View Full Version : Dogs on the trail (how do you really feel?)



shades of blue
11-05-2003, 15:08
This is my first post so be nice! I read recently a fairly negative post about dogs on the trail on this site. This summer, I hiked from Davenport Gap to Fox Creek, VA with my Golden Retriever. She is well behaved, doesn't bark (believe it or not) and obeys me when I tell her to leave others alone. I plan to do a lot more miles this coming spring break and summer. Here is my question....Are most people anti-dog on the trail or is it just a few....does this incompass all dog owners...or just ones who can not control their dog? I am not looking for a fight, I am wanting honest opinions. I have really enjoyed hiking the AT, and it's been great for my dog. Ok.....let me know what you think. One more thing, the person whose post I read didn't seem to hate dogs...just thought it was a horrible idea for them to be on the trail.

Jack Tarlin
11-05-2003, 15:33
There are hardly any "anti-dog" folks on the Trail, tho there are plenty of folks who, with reason, have a problem with inconsiderate dog owners.

Provided you are an attentive owner; provided your dog is well-trained and obedient; provided you and your dog have trail experience, including experience hiking/camping with other folks; provided you obey ALL rules and regulations re. use of leashes, etc; provided you are dedicated to your dog's health, safety, and happiness; provided you are especially considerate at campsites, shelters, and hostels, as regards other people and your dog; provided you keep your dog from leaving messes, barking indiscriminately, begging food, bringing vermin into shelters, chasing wildlife, etc-----well, provided you're willing to do ALL of this, you and you dog shouldn't have any problems.

The problem, however, is that in my experience, which is not inconsiderable, upwards of three-quarters of the dog owners on the Trail DO NOT consider the above when they decide they simply must bring their pet along on a thru-hike. Plain and simply, MOST of the dogs on the Trail don't belong there, and there are very few owners of Trail dogs who are truly considerate regarding courtesy twards others as well as proper care of their pet. For most dog owners on the Trail, their "right" to enjoy the company of their pet wherever they go supercedes the rights of others on the Trail who may not wish to have their time on the Trail negatively affected by a dog---and this is dead wrong. The vast majority of dog owners, at one time or another, (and in many cases, all the time!) simply do not spend enough time or energy considering how their dog's presence and behavior can potentially impact others. Unfortunately, there is so much of this behavior that it affects ALL dogs and their owners, even the ones who are caring, responsible, and considerate.

To repeat, there aren't a lot of folks who hate dogs out there; the problem is with all too many of the dog OWNERS; but all of these problems are avoidable if you're aware of the potential problems, and take measures to ensure that thisdoesn't happen with you and your dog.

By the way.....I predict this will be a VERY lively thread; I hope we manage to keep the conversation civil, moderate, and useful.

Blue Jay
11-05-2003, 15:35
To people who have been bitten by "friendly" dogs, you are a terrorist. You don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks, so bring the dog.

Jack Tarlin
11-05-2003, 15:38
Blue Jay--

Please re-read the last paragraph of my post; this guy asked a sincere question, and I think he deserves a fairer response than the one you gave him......there's no secret that I'm not a fan of dogs on the A.T. either, but I think we're all capable of discussing this in a more positive manner.

JimSproul
11-05-2003, 15:41
I too hike with my dog, Murffy, on many traniing hikes. I always keep him in a harness and on a leash for his protection as well as others. He is a 55 pound mutt but well behaved. I keep him away from water sources and clean-up after him, even in the woods.

Even with all that said, I have mixed feelings about dogs in the backcountry. Much like teenagers, if not well managed they can cause a real problem in a hurry. I have had problems with other people's dogs (and some two legged kids) when they just let them loose to do as they please. I understand them being banded from some areas, like the Smokies.

By the way, my wife gives me a hard time about going out in bad weather. I never take the dog on days over 100 or in stormy conditions. I hear "Why are you going if it is too nasty for him?" How can you answer that?

shades of blue
11-05-2003, 16:08
Jack...thanks for the input. As for doing ALL of the things you mentioned....I do, at least I attempt to do all of them and feel I am successful. I am concerned about others on the trail (I am a very polite person). I know not all people feel comfortable around dogs...and I have been accosted by other dogs on the trail myself. I also realize that having a dog on the trail makes it more difficult for me on days I go through town. There are definate drawbacks. However, she has been a great companion, and I take very good care of her both on and off the trail. As for Blue Jay's Post......I truly doubt I should have a trail name of Osama ben shadesofblue. The main idea of my thread is to figure out what is best, not "do what I want to do anyway".

ronk
11-05-2003, 16:26
Dogs on the trail are natural. They are bred from it (wolves). All things can be mishandled and abused.

The person with a "bad" dog or even" bad" kids, which is worse "on the trail" is probably not a conscientious or conservation minded "hiker"

Dogs are fine, Kids are fine bad handlers or parents a much more serious issue!!!

Mine (dog) doesn't hike ...cause he is a knot-head... I love him but he would view the trail as a place where he needed to be everywhere...all the time... and greeting everyone... and then I'd proabably end up throwing him over my shoulder and carrying him home... got him from a pound and he hasn't gotten over being "sprung from the hoose-gow":banana :banana :banana

prozac
11-05-2003, 16:38
I would be interested in seeing a poll on this topic. I personally am quite happy to run into a well-trained , well-behaved dog on the trail but this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Generally it seems to me the more trail mileage on a dog the better behaved. In my experience, most bad interactions with Fido has been with day or weekend hiker owners who don't seem to realize what a nuisance their pet can be can be to others. The flip side is most dogs are not up to the challenge of a thru due to the physical nature of the trail. I'd be willing to bet the drop out rate for canines is much higher than it is for people. That being said, like anything else there are exceptions.

The Weasel
11-05-2003, 16:42
Balto Jack is very, very right. There are almost no 'dog haters' on the trail. But there are a number - I'm one, and I think he is too - who, as he puts it, don't like inconsiderate owners much. He covers those points fully and correctly.

But there are also a lot of dog LOVERS too - I'm one of them, also - who are vehemently opposed to dogs on the trail BECAUSE we love them.

When you take a dog on the trail, you're making decisions for him/her that can be risky, at best, if not thought through. We think of dogs as able to do anything, but they are, physically, similar to us, with a few drawbacks, as well. They may be fat and out of physical condition to handle serious mileages; they need far greater food levels than in normal times, especially over the long periods of high-calorie output of a thru-hike; they are putting a huge amount of pounding on feet (unprotected) and the muscular-skeletal system which, particularly for larger dogs, can lead to hip degeneration (my old lab was put to sleep due to that). Even more serious, dogs lack the human body-cooling system that comes from our perspiration; their only means of cooling is panting and drinking cool water. A "stretch" for me to "go dry" for the last 5-6 miles of a day and just be a little freaky (but not at body-temp risk) can be a serious problem for an overheated dog. Water stops frequently are a pain in the butt for me, but a necessity for a dog. Not stopping is either cruel, risky, or both. Keep in mind that when you're sitting around the table at a shelter happily whining about tired muscles, Poochie is wagging her tail because she loves you, but in just as great pain, and perhaps more...and unable to tell you.

Beyond the physical aspects, there are some very hard canine/human emotional aspects. Dogs that are perfectly trained ("He comes when called and obeys ALL the time") at home, or in even familiar types of surroundings are going to go into ecstatic sensory overload on the Trail. Unfamiliar - and fascinating - scents can take even the best trained dog off on a delightful run even while you're calling her "Come, Poochie!". That run down the hollow, through the woods, chasing that boar or coyote scent, leads that dog past your voice into total wilderness, where she may never find her way back to a 24" pathway. Gone. Forever. I'm not being dramatic. In 2000, I found no fewer than 4 dog owners (1 thruhiker, others day/section hikers) with dogs that had run off and disappeared. How horribly heartbreaking, to know that your dog is in a wilderness from which she may never emerge, and in which she is incapable of surviving.

The altnerative is, of course, leashing. Let's leave aside the occasional discomfort of holding a leash the whole time, or being jerked every now and then, even by the best trail dog. You're going to keep your dog tied to a 15-20' leash for 7 months? For 2000 miles? That's kind? I'm sorry. Not.

9 months ago, Chase The Incredible Rocket Dog jumped in my car after being dumped by a local interstate. He's mostly a lab, almost 2 years old now - and still with a lot of fun puppy in him - and the smartest, most cooperative dog I've had in a long time. He is excellent on a leash, so when I walked the Manistee River Trail 2 weeks ago, I decided to see what it was like on a short trip with a dog. It confirmed all of Jack's comments, and all of mine.

I tried totally to be "considerate" in every way. But I couldn't totally stop Chase from barking or growling one night at another dog in the camp area (and the other barked too) as they did the territory thingy, and I missed burying a few of his voidings. I couldn't prevent him once from urinating in the river - that was a fun, and cooling moment, and he didn't see any "No Dog Pee Allowed Here" signs. He was polite and didn't jump on others on the trail, but others always were a bit hesitant at first, and I had to often stop to let them pass out of short-leash distance from him. He tired faster than I did - it's just as many miles for a lot smaller body - so I took more breaks. He got very hot, and I ran out of water (I had 2 qts for each of us). He was wonderful on the leash...but he was, for all that, captive for 48 hours, unable to romp or run free. He's my pal, and I didn't want to risk losing him, to have him feel abandoned again.

I'm sorry. You can't be considerate enough to bring your dog, and if you truly love him or her, you won't even think about it. To those who say, "I can't be apart from my dog that long," I sympathize, but you should realize you're much like so many others of us who had to weigh our separation from loved ones - human, canine or otherwise - and our desire for the trail. You can't always have both.

Leave your dog home. For his or her sake.

The Weasel


PS: I just noted prozac's (I think) mention that, "Dogs on the trail are naturals...they are descended from wolves." Well, I'm sorry. Even that's not appropriate. Dogs are no more "natural" on a trail as wolf descendants than humans are "naturals" as descendants (leave the evolution fight alone folks, and allow me my own delusions) of "Lucy" and the rest of her australopithecus kin. That was then - a few hundred thousand or a couple millions years ago - and this is now, albeit only about 30,000 years for dogs. This is a major reason why one sees very few dachshunds start on the trail, and even fewer Taco Dogs.

mongo
11-05-2003, 16:45
Peronally I loved having Dogs on the trail. It made my day to meet and pat them, however the only problem I have is thagt it is so hard on the dogs....especially in the heat.

Lone Wolf
11-05-2003, 16:45
Too many negatives that outweigh the positives of thru-hiking with a dog. Leave the pup with relatives and do YOUR thing. It ain't fair to put an animal through daily grind of hiking mile after mile.

Peaks
11-05-2003, 16:50
Jack: Right on.

I just wish dog owners would clean up the doggie dodo.

shades of blue
11-05-2003, 16:54
One of the biggest reasons I asked this question was because of the longer trips I plan to take next year. This past summer were at the most 5 to 6 day hikes because I have a Sunday job. I teach so I'm off of school during the summer. I plan to to do the same for June, but will do an extended month long hike during July. I have been concerned about how she would hold up over the month, and about how others would interact with her. The posts about her being safe for an extended amount of time has given me something to think about.

Skeemer
11-05-2003, 18:52
if you really love him or her you won't think of it

Well I can't add much more than Baltimore Jack and Weasel but have to take exception to the above quote. I hiked briefly with a guy called 2X4 (2 legs and 4 legs...get it) We tented next to each other on the night before we went into Harpers Ferry. I'm telling you he took better care of that dog than my Mother did me! :) He brushed its teeth every night, had its own rain coat, walked it at a slow pace on a leash, carried its food, etc. The dog seemed genuinely happy and was well behaved. This guy also went out of his way to stealth tent so as not to offend anyone else. If you have to bring a dog this was the way to do it.

Two other guys rescued a husky pup on the Trail and took it all the way to Katahdin (I believe) We passed each other on and off and they seemed take plenty of scheduled rest stops. Their dog also seemed to enjoy it.

Of course this was an unusually "cool and wet" year on the AT...They might not have fared as well last year.

I also realize these were probably the exceptions. I too am a dog lover but have to agree with Weasel... in most cases it's not fair to the dog.

Footslogger
11-05-2003, 19:04
For starters ...I like dogs. I like pretty much all animals for that matter. I agree with the comments already made about dog behavior. But here is what I honestly think about dogs on the trail.

Dogs aren't built for 15 - 20 mile days, one right after another for 6 months ...period, paragraph end of topic. If we could ask a dog about it's preference as to hiking or sleeping I doubt they would choose hiking. Plain and simple, a dog is on the trail as a preference of the owner.

Having said the above, I will admit that I did see what appeared to be some pretty neat dogs on the AT this year. I also saw some malnourished and totally exhausted dogs on the trail and that made me pretty sad.

Would I ever take my dog on the trail ?? YEP, but not on a thru-hike. I can't imagine anything more fun than to have my dog along on a weekend or week long trip, where the daily mileage and terrain allowed for a relatively easy pace.

The Weasel
11-05-2003, 19:28
Skeemer - Thanks for agreeing mostly. It's nice not to feel totally out-to-lunch now and then.

My comment about "If you love your dog, dont" is based on the reality that no matter how much you take care of your dog, the risk of injury and especially of losing him/her is too great. I will never forget the look on the face of that guy at Wayah Bald who lost his pup there and kept going up and down the trail for 2 weeks with his sad little posters. Poor bastard just started crying when he tried to tell me about it. I felt worse for the dog. It probably died feeling abandoned, starved or frozen if it made it through the summer.

The Weasel

steve hiker
11-05-2003, 19:46
Keep dogs on a leash when on the trail; better yet, don't allow dogs on any trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. My last encounter was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. I actually have a friend who shot and killed two charging dobermans at a state park. The owners were pissed but had no recourse; he only got a $50 fine for shooting a gun at the park.

Rain Man
11-05-2003, 20:13
Originally posted by mongo
Peronally I loved having Dogs on the trail. It made my day to meet and pat them, ...

Anybody know what happens when a dog rumps through the poison ivy, then rubs against and gets petted by a human?

I'm just wondering if the poison ivy "oil" gets onto the dog's coat, then transferred to human skin? I have no idea.

Rain Man

Hikerhead
11-05-2003, 20:16
I'm at a loss for words.....

OK, back to dogs. I love dogs. Sometimes the owners don't use common sense and that's where the problem lies.

The locals between Glencliff and Hanover had the best well behaved dogs. One lady had this huge Great Dame that came behind me, I thought it was a deer. A trail maintainer had a chocolate chesapeake retreiver that I played with.

Bottom line, if you have a dog, show some courtesy, use common sense, and take it into the woods when the time comes.

And lets all guess who's picture the Pope has one his wall.

jlb2012
11-05-2003, 21:03
Rain Man - yes it is possible to get the poison ivy oil on you second hand from a dog that you pet or that rubs up against you.

Blister
11-05-2003, 21:25
Just had to note about the revenge by WillK. I'm sure the dog was much better behaved and would never think about pooping on your face. Can't blame a dog for human error, you can blame the human for bad behavior.

I love dogs and living so close to the trail have taken care of many trail dogs at my home (3 this year). In each case the dogs had either become sick and/or injured. 2 of the dogs this year had paw related injuries. The other, after being looked at by the vet, needed a rest or it could have been something it ate? As far as being on the trail I love to encounter a well mannered dog, usually owned by a well mannered owner. But people should know what they are about to put the animal through. The owners as well should be prepared for what could happen. One hiker this year carried his full pack along with his 60 pound dog 2 miles it might have been more to the closest road. He was physically able to do this. I have seen many hikers out there that are not. Be prepared. When I had my last dog, who ended up being a great trail companion, although never thru hiked. I used to carry pliers even on day hikes in Vermont. Can anyone out there tell me why I carried such an item??? A big kiss to anyone who can except for B Jack :)
It's a serious decision to decide to bring an animal out on a through hike. Resposibility being the big factor. I love dogs, some even more than their owners. There are just so many things to consider.

Skyline
11-05-2003, 22:00
My dog is a great companion, generous to a fault, and we both follow all the rules, including leashes. Most hikers adore her, even those who say they usually don't like dogs. We tent, don't stay in shelters. I'll bring her on the Trail for dayhikes, weekends, even longer. But if I'm out long enough to need to go into a town, no way. For her sake and mine.

magic_game03
11-05-2003, 23:59
size matters: I noticed the smaller the dog, the greater the average daily distance it could walk, suprisingly. Like football players they may be strong but they lack stamina (this is a generalization.)

human ignorance: Most humans believe they have the right to everything, we are greedy bastards. "this is our house, this is our land, this is our forest, this is our trail!" Don't give in. your dog has the right to live and be free!

**(hell, they kill bears because they are problems to humans walking in the forest)
**(let's go kill all the f--kin wildlife because "its hard to enjoy nature, with all this nature around)"

thru-hiking: This is hard! almost every dog i encountered on the trail in '03 got lost, really! i heard it a half dozen times. "tadpole" and "twinkle-toes" were the only pair that i know of, without any major hitches. but, tadpole treated twinkle-toes like a God.
nothing came before his dog. by the way, he carried his dogs' food, and his dog only weighed 4 lbs. (yes that's 64 oz)

my thoughts: if your dog is 20lbs or less, it IS shy (doesn't stray much and is very quiet), and it is an outdoor dog; then i would give you a 50/50 chance of a good time. else, don't do it. you and your dog will be miserable.

problems: you cannot shelter with dogs in the smokies, nor the shanondoas, nor the prezzies. you cannot stay a public hostels( like the "place" in damascus) or private ( the "blue berry patch")
it is harder to catch a hitch (in cars.) it will be almost impossible to do the mahosic( misspell?) notch or trail sections of maine, or "chairback" and many other notches with a big dog( you could lift a small dog through there, but a big dog would be trouble). many national parks will fine you if any size dog is off his/her lead for even just a momment. any dog, that is not shy will get lost multiple times. dogs will attack porcupines (very bad move on the dogs part, lol.) these are just a few of the example problems of thru-hiking with a dog.


maybe try this: have your dog droped to you after you've been out on the trail a couple of weeks. have a five day hike-a-long and enjoy it. then send him/her back. parts of central VA where there are less hills and rocks and more ridge running. that way you can have some quality time with your FRIEND. it will be much easier if you are not tackling hard sections, it is easier this way to keep your dog on a lead and/or keep your eye on him/her.



magic "trail culture"

it is easier to make any dog your friend, than almost any human.

TJ aka Teej
11-06-2003, 00:04
You know why we all remember 2x4 from this season? Because they were the exception to the rule. Good guy, great dog.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1241&papass=&sort=1

steve hiker
11-06-2003, 00:21
Blister: I didn't take it out on the dog, I took it out on the owners. Think of it as a little "trail magic" left for their ride home.:banana

squirrel bait
11-06-2003, 00:41
The pliers are for removing unwanted items from hair and paws. Maybe if you are strong enough physically and emotionally (it really takes guts) to remove rotten,old, infected teeth. Here on the beach it seems we have the exact same problem. Ya all it is really hard on the pets to keep up with humans. The sun just beats the animals to death, literally. Think about what JT has told ya, no working up to it, no pregame if you will, and this animal all of a sudden after a year or two of couch loving is suppose to revert to , the call of the wild. Good luck.

squirrel bait
11-06-2003, 00:47
Oh, and Blister, ya owe me.

Uncle Wayne
11-06-2003, 07:42
My first shelter experience with a dog was at Fullhardt Knob Shelter in Virginia. We arrived after dark at the shelter and there was already two other hikers there. We ate supper, looked at the lights of Roanoke and surrounding hamlets and had just went to bed when a lady hiked in with a large collie. There was plenty of room in the shelter but she was thoughtful enough to ask if anyone would mind if her dog slept in the shelter with her. She said if anyone did she would tent instead. No one was opposed to her request and she set their gear in the middle of the shelter, ate a snack and were soon bedded down in the shelter. In the 30 or 40 minutes it took her to get settled in and eat, the mice were running all over the foot portion of my sleeping bag. After the dog entered the shelter the mice disappeared or at least quit running over us. I've never been in another shelter with a dog so I don't know if that is a common place happening.

I've always said I'm not a proponent of dogs on the trail for several reasons many of which have been listed in this discussion. But after reading Baltimore Jack's post, I realized I'm not against dogs as much as against the inconsiderate dog owners. He and others hit the nail on the head, the dog is not always the problem. Thanks Jack, you helped me again.

One other note about the lady with the dog at Fullhardt Knob shelter: the next morning while we were all eating breakfast, her dog did his stinky business on the grass just beyond the fire ring. After we finished eating she took a small trowel out of her pack, scooped up her dogs poop and buried it in the woods away from the shelter.

She set a standard that I have measured all dog owners on the trail by till this day. Very few that have crossed my path measure up to her example.

Blue Jay
11-06-2003, 09:08
Jack, my post was as civil and moderate as I could manage. I held my tongue with both hands. Dog people drive me insane. Skeemer, I met 2 X 4 and you are correct. I also met Twinkletoes and Tadpole, also a veterinarian named Dr. Dolittle with two great dogs. I liked the Doctor so much I took her and Stumpknocker to my home for a night. These people are not Dog People. Dog People say things like "she obeys me when I tell her to stop bothering people". Dog People love to experiment with Dogs and Hikers. If you have never witnessed or been attacked by Dog People you would never understand the terror and pain these people induce.

shades of blue
11-06-2003, 09:21
Blue Jay...I love how you lump "dog people" into one nice little group....do you do that to all people? How about those "jewish people.....African people.....islamic people?" My dog has NEVER and I repeat NEVER attacked anyone. She has hiked with me for over a year and a half, usually in the mountains not far from where I live. I made sure she stayed with me the entire time, and would not release her to "not bother others" until they had given permission. So....if you have a problem with dogs...that is fine. I can understand why......it sounds like you have had some personal experiences where you have been in terror and pain. Not all people...dogs....whatever....are the same as you may have experienced. This past summer I have seen people without dogs be inconsiderate to others.....leaving shelters trashed. I've also seen people do amazing things with no thought of reward or thanks. Which group of people do I lump together? Should I take people as they come and just be aware? I don't know Blue Jay. As for what I am going to do about myself and my dog, I don't know. I can tell you that Jack has much more influence because of his ideas than you could ever have with your statements.

alpine
11-06-2003, 09:22
with drawn

Blue Jay
11-06-2003, 11:25
Shadesofblue, I'm glad Jack has more influence than I do, he is far more eloquent. So take his advise. You said you want to be aware. You may not want to believe it, but dog attacks are quite common. I am not the only one who feels terror when a dog runs toward me. Please keep your dog from doing this as I would never run at you with a gun. Also Dog People, like Serial Killers, are not a racial or ethnic group.

Mr. Clean
11-06-2003, 11:46
It's for porcupine quills, right?

I love dogs and have one here with me, but would never take him on trails where I expected to meet anyone. I also like to stop for a minute and scratch a nice dogs head while I talk to it's fellow hiker, but I need to agree that seeing a large dog running down the trail at me, even with wagging tail, can be momentarily very scary.

I usually step aside for a dog as I do for a hiker when we meet up and have only had a couple incidents with dogs that I don't care to have happen again. All this being said, I would vote for leaving your friend at home if you can stand it.

gravityman
11-06-2003, 15:23
No, not all dogs are meant to thru hike (in response to footslogger).

Actually, some dogs are built for this kind of a hike. The Husky is one of those dogs. From everything I have read, they are made to hike long distances on little food. Here's a quote from the Siberian Husky Club of America :

The Siberian Husky is noted as an "easy keeper," requiring a relatively small amount of food for his size. This trait, too, may be traced to the origins of the breed, as the Chukchis developed their dogs to pull a light load at a fast pace over great distances in low temperatures on the smallest possible intake of food.

When we get done with our next thruhike, my wife wants to get a dog. I figure this is a good one in case we want to do some more long distance hiking.

My biggest concern would be overheating. Won't know about that until we've owned a dog...

Gravity Man

Footslogger
11-06-2003, 19:32
Gravityman ...you make a good point about this breed in terms of their hardiness. But you also identify the main reason I would not take even a Husky out on a thru-hike ...OVERHEATING !

I think the reputation of the Husky in terms of its strength, stamina and relatively low water needs is mainly in the cooler climates ...and thus the "Siberian" origin.

Hey, I could be wrong here but the thread asked what I honestly think and I honestly think that NO dog is equipped to do a complete thru-hike and enjoy it. Just my opinion.

Blister
11-06-2003, 23:28
Squirrel Bait gets a hug, Greg gets the kiss, and WillK still gets the kick in the rear for acting like an animal. :) I'd perfer to be a drunk than an animal anyday.

Alot of great points with breeds of dogs. The larger varieties often tend much better on the trail. I hiked small portions during my hike in 2000 with a guy that had a husky. I remember in the hotter months he had slowed down greatly for the care of his dog. Later on I saw him in the Whites where the dog had caused him a great fall. He was on the trail again in 2002, at least he made it as far as Ratfest. His name was Dave and the dog Dilila (sp?).Something to consider when I watched him fall in the whites. It was after Washington where you just jump boulder to boulder. Keeping his dog leashed caused him to loose his own balance, resulting in a large bloody gash in the leg. Just another point to look at. The trail is not always so level and meandering. Although a dog might be strong enough for the terain, when a leash is envolved it is hard to anticipate quick movements and jerks - which in that case resulted with the owner injured.

Grampie
11-07-2003, 10:29
Baltamore Jack is so right.
Before I did my thru (01) I always thought it would be great to be able to hike with a dog.
I sure changed my mind after seeing so many, hikers with dogs that caused problems for them and other hikers.
Most owners are just too tired to properly care for a dog at the end of the day.
I just saw too many misbehaved dogs on the trail to believe that the AT is a place for a dog to be.
I love dogs and have had one most of my life. Anyone who takes a dog on a thru-hike is jeprodising there own hike.
Marvin I'm not talking about you.

max patch
11-07-2003, 10:50
Dogs on a thru are a bad idea:

1. It's bad for the dog.

2. It will greatly increase your hassle factor.

3. And even if your dog is well behaved 100% of the time its presence will negatively impact the hike of others as you will have much less wildlife sightings if a dog is around. For example, one night I had a shelter to myself. I awoke at dawn to see a bear slowly walk up the creek that was in front of the shelter. A truly amazing sight that I'm sure I would have missed if I had shared the shelter with a dog.

squirrel bait
11-07-2003, 12:22
Woooeeee...... a hug, things are lookin up in the 00's. Still wouldn't take dog though.

The Wicked Lobstah
11-07-2003, 13:12
Footslogger wrote:
Dogs aren't built for 15 - 20 mile days, one right after another for 6 months ...period, paragraph end of topic.

While this may be true, if dogs aren't built for it then humans CERTAINLY aren't built for it. But we do it and we love it.

When I hike the five-mile loop around my property with my dog, I hike 5 miles and he RUNS about 20.

I sure wish I was built like a dog on some of those 20-mile days!

I understand people's points about it being rough on your dog, but I KNOW my dog would rather be outdoors and with me over ANYTHING else. Get your dog in shape, get your dog booties, train your dog well, be a responsible owner and go for it.

Blue Jay
11-07-2003, 13:39
Actually humans are built to walk many miles per day. For our entire evolution that is exactly what we did. The Flintstones was just a TV show and Movie. Sure, some of the rich people had horses but most of us poor slobs walked. Actually how do you KNOW your dog wants to walk all day for six months?

The Wicked Lobstah
11-07-2003, 13:56
It seems, Blue Jay, that you may have missed my point. You are correct that humans are designed to walk long distances. So are dogs and wolves. Turtles and groundhogs are not so well built for hiking. My point was that if humans are good hikers, dogs are EXCELLENT hikers.

To respond to your question, first let me say that I did not say that I KNOW that my dog wants to hike 20 miles per day for 6 months as you have suggested. What I did write was that I KNOW that my dog would rather be oudoors with me over anything else. How do I know this? I could go on for hours, but here are a few indicators:

-when I say "parkway" (short for Blue Ridge Parkway) he flips out and gets really excited.
-when I get his leash he does the same.
-when I close the door and sit on the couch he goes and stands by the door.
-when I open the car door, he jumps in - anticipating the "parkway" as the destination.
-when I walk towards the trails on my property he runs circles around me for the first 100 yards as if to say "thank you, thank you, thank you!"

It sounds to me like you've had some pretty bad dog experience(s) and I'm truly sorry about that. I hope that this post clears up some of your questions about my last post.

Blue Jay
11-07-2003, 15:31
When I open my door my cat (and Dog) try to escape. My cat has often beaten me to the trail out my back yard. My horse also always wants to escape and walk trails. Hell, my grandfather used to get lost in town and the police would have to find him and bring him back. Does this mean any one or all of them wants to go to Springer with me?

squirrel bait
11-07-2003, 15:41
Okay already, seems to be enough information here to make an informed decision. Take the pet or don't. He'll like it and you'll have grand old time or the poor thing quits, gets hurt and dies. I myself enjoy the interaction with mutts but hey I smoke so what the hell do I know other than I would be really sad if he got lost.

Lone Wolf
11-07-2003, 15:42
NO dog is bred or built to carry a pack on it's back. This is where most of the abuse comes from. I seen way too many a**hole hikers who make their dogs carry too much ****.

squirrel bait
11-07-2003, 15:50
That sounds exactly right. Now your carrying your gear, the dogs gear, you think he can do his own, on goes the pack and all of a sudden fido isn't so friggin happy and running all over the place. Okay he his happyand all goes well, write and tell us. But in the meantime good luck on finding that pack/stuff that fell out while he was enjoying nature by chasing it.

shades of blue
11-07-2003, 15:59
Ok folks.... Thanks for the information (I started all this I know, Jack warned me, but too late to stop me). Most people have been talking about a thru-hike, which unfortunately doesn't apply to me. The longest I can be out on the trail because of my job is a month. I think I'll leave her at home and just take her on short weekend hikes in the local mountains. I think in the end it will be better for her, and better for me. Peace!

Lone Wolf
11-07-2003, 16:07
This Thread Officially Over!

jlb2012
11-07-2003, 17:21
yeah right

Dee
11-07-2003, 19:00
It is a wonderful idea to take your dog hiking with you. I always take her with me and she leads the way. However on a thru hike I don't think it's a good idea. Also thru the smokies dogs are not permitted.
There are two very important tips I would like to share. First, trails that are very rocky do alot of damage to the pads on their paws. Avoid those trails or buy your dog some boots. Second, make sure you pack tweezers. Your dog will pick up ticks.

gravityman
11-07-2003, 19:20
"NO dog is bred or built to carry a pack on it's back. This is where most of the abuse comes from. I seen way too many a**hole hikers who make their dogs carry too much ****." From Lone Wolf


Hmmm... Huskies are bred and do pull sleds for 1150 miles in under 17 days (Iditarod), but they can't carry a pack? I don't think so...


Not all breds are created equal for this.

Gravity Man

Lone Wolf
11-07-2003, 19:25
Key word PULL, ace. Plus they're pulling with 10 other dogs in cold weather on hard packed snow. They're not bred to CARRY loads across their spines. In hot weather. On sharp rocks.

Doctari
11-08-2003, 23:20
When well mannered (and quiet): I am VERY happy to see them.

When poorly trained: shoot the owner(s), re-train the dog.

Oh yes, the dogs need to follow LNT as well as the humans, so it's up to the owner to clean up any poo.

I guess that shooting the owners would deviate a little from LNT though wouldnt it? But what if I buried them well away from any water & etc? Yes, but then there is that legal thing about murder & stuff, sigh,,,,

RenaissanceMan98
11-09-2003, 00:00
Our last dog (Nordica, trailname Boogerhead) hiked 1700 miles of the AT with my fiancee (a veterinarian). There was nothing, i repeat, nothing Nordica loved more than being on the trail. She is now passed on, and buried in Pisgah national forest.

Dogs on the trail are an absolute JOY!

Every bad thing I have ever heard about a dog being on the trail, I have witnessed in a person on the trail, over and over again. At least with a dog, there is someone to correct the behavior.

Take your dog, but take care of your dog. Ignore the people here who say it's bad for your dog. They don't know your dog, therefore, they are speaking from a point of ignorance. Get your advice from veterinarians who are hikers, and who know your dog.

If the dog needs to rest, rest. If the dog needs to quit, quit. If your dog is overeager or protective, GET TRAINING. It's more for you than the dog, but you'll both have a happier relationship.

squirrel bait
11-09-2003, 02:37
Sheezzz, naws we dummb. Joy to you maybe. One question, when ya didn't see your mutt go poop in the words did ya go find it? And your right about the behavior, if any more of these hikers take off barking after the wildlife, thats it. And they don't cotton to leashes very well either. :jump

Jester2000
11-10-2003, 01:23
I know at least three or four hikers who have taken well to a leash. As for Blisters question, the pliers are sexual in nature and have nothing to do with the dog.

RenaissanceMan98
11-10-2003, 15:34
Sheezzz, naws we dummb. Joy to you maybe. One question, when ya didn't see your mutt go poop in the words did ya go find it? And your right about the behavior, if any more of these hikers take off barking after the wildlife, thats it. And they don't cotton to leashes very well either. :jump

Squirrel, I neither said, nor implied in my post that anyone was dumb, I merely answered the thread with my opinion.

And, actually, I HAVE seen hikers go off barking after wildlife (really I have) , as well as screaming, throwing things, and other assinine behavior that ruins wildlife viewing. Again, any complaint I have ever heard about dogs, I have actually SEEN from people. These include, but are not limited to, threatening people, scaring people, attacking people, ruining water sources, farting, snoring, getting other people's gear wet, dirty, smelly, etc. The list goes on. A well trained Dog, in general, makes a far more pleasant trail companion, whether travelling with them or coming across them, than most hikers, IMHO.

Did I go find my dog's poop in the woods? No. Neither do I check the poop of every hiker to make sure it is dealt with properly (what I have seen tells me it isn't). Nor do I bury bear poop, racoon poop, or mouse droppings that I run across. I have seen a hiker poop in the middle of the trail, my dog would never do that. Nor have I run across used toilet paper on trail or in the woods, that was left behind by dogs.

As far as leashes, I agree, many more dogs and hikers should be on a leash.

gravityman
11-10-2003, 18:02
Lone Wolf and others,
Okay, did a little research on dogs carring packs. Here's a certificate for classifying your Husky as a Working Pack Dog. They actually make a distinction as to what type of pack they must wear : The dog must carry a canine pack, anatomically tested for safety and protection.
and the weight of the pack : The dog must carry an initial weight equal to 25% of body weight. The pack may be lightened during the course of travel due to consumption of food, water, and other supplies the ending load cannot be less than 10% of body weight.

Although I am not certain, I believe this is to show that your dog is a good pack dog and thus can be breed to and the offspring sold as working pack dogs. I would have to contact the association for more info though.

Note that this is from the Siberian Husky Club of America, Inc, the organization created to oversee the breeding of Huskies.

http://www.shca.org/shcahp6e.htm

There are numerous other "working pack dog" websites, some requiring over 1000 miles of packing.

Huskies are breed to carry a canine pack, anatomically tested for safety and protection.

Gravity Man

PS But I can't defend the hot weather comment. It is a real concern!

The Weasel
11-10-2003, 19:45
Well, this discussion is a little like the one about using nuclear weapons: Just because you CAN do something doesn't imply that you SHOULD.

While I share some of the concerns about the hiker-versus-dog issue (i.e. whether dogs make the AT less desireable for hikers), I'm fascinated that few people so far (I'm trying to provoke here!) disagree with my feeling that it is usualy anywhere from merely cruel to outright dangerous and abusive to take a dog. To repeat, dogs are usually NOT physically trained for long days under weight. Us humans CAN carry weight long distances too...if we are physically conditioned for it, and otherwise healthy. A dog, not put through physcial conditioning, and possibly with unknown health/heart/joint problems, is no more capable just because she or he comes from a "working" breed. Too, feet (from rocky terrain) can be damaged, water/overheating problems are common (which can result in long-term damage even if not visible day-to-day), and risk of loss in the woods are all problems that happen, are serious, and dangerous to the dog (and, yeah, to us, when Poochie dies because our arrogance couldn't leave her home).

Don't leave Poochie home to make ME happy. Leave her home so you don't kill her.

The Weasel

Jack Tarlin
11-10-2003, 19:59
Dog lovers tend to let their loyalties to their pets blind them to reality; of course it never occurs to THEM that their animal companion is anything less than perfect, and they get all bent outta shape if anyone has the temerity to suggest otherwise.

Witness the remarkable, and ridiculous comment "Every bad thing I have ever heard about a dog being on the Trail I have witnessed in a person on the Trail, over and over again."

Really? Well, I gotta tell ya, after 17,000 plus miles on the Trail in recent years, I've never seen the following:

* I've never seen a person run down a fawn and kill it, never mind all sorts of other innocent woodland creatures, such as squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits, etc.

* Never seen a human take a dump in front of a shelter and leave it there

* Never been snapped at or bitten by a human

* Never been chased down the trail by a human that wanted to chew on my
leg

* Never been chased up a tree by a snarling, angry human

* Never had a human piss on my pack; never had one eat my dinner when my
back was turned; never had one walk all over my stuff repeatedly with wet,
muddy feet; never had a human keep me up all all night barking or whining;
never had a human chase, scare, snap at, or try to bite the children I was
hiking with; never saw a human bring uncountable ticks and vermin into a
shelter; never had a human contribute to my falling ten feet on sharp rocks
because he was off his leash; and so on......

Whoever said they've seen people do all the bad things they've seen dogs do, is missing two important points: One, this is simply an untrue, ridiculous thing to say, and two; even if it were true, which it isn't, this doesn't mean that bad behavior by dogs and their owners should not be commented on. Nor should it be tolerated or viewed as "one of those things" that one has to put up with on a popular trail like the A.T. In an earlier post, I mentioned that it's bad OWNERS, bad TRAINING, and ill-attentive people that are at fault here more than the animals themselves, but the fact is, most dogs on the Trail are a pain in the ass, and most of them are better off left at home. Trying to pass dog problems off as similar or secondary to people problems is to miss the point. One's right to enjoy the company of one's pet stops COLD when this right intereferes with the right of other folks to enjoy their trail experience without having to put up with untrained, badly attended, dis-obedient, or more than likely, ignored dogs. Owners of Trail dogs operate under the impression that everyone they encounter is thrilled beyond measure to be sharing the Trail, shelters, campsites, hostels, etc., with dear old Bowser. I assure you that this is NOT the case.

Cabo
11-11-2003, 07:57
Amen !!!!!!!!

gravityman
11-11-2003, 11:38
No argument with Jack's post. I really understand it. I never had a bad experience with a dog when we did 1/2 the AT in 2001, but Jack has seen a whole lot more. Except for the dog in fontana hilton that slowly pushed me off my thermarest all night long so that he could sleep on it. Of course that wasn't too bad, 'cause he pushed me on to my wifes. I was my wife that ended up on the hard cold platform :)

However, I do take issue with the "health" of the dog brought up over and over again by others as a reason why you shouldn't take your dog. Huskies are FAR more capable that a lot of people to do this kind of hike. They are bred to not need much food or water. They love to work, carrying loads both on their backs and pulling. They are milage machines. Again, they compete regularly to haul themselves, gear, and a person over 1150 miles in 17 days for the Iditarod. Granted, these are world class athletes, but you will build your endurance while they build theirs. They also have been know to train with and complete marathons, so I just don't see the argument that they are not physically capable.

"unknown health/heart/joint problems" is just not an issue. This is equally probable with a person as with a dog. In fact, probably more likely since we don't have registries and breeding programs to prevent these problems.

"overheating problems are common " This is a serious concern that needs a lot of attention.

"risk of loss in the woods " Most husky breeds will tell you NEVER let your husky off lease. They are famous for getting lost.

"feet (from rocky terrain)" They make booties specifically for this

The only credible problems with taking a dog on a thruhike are not with the dog ,but with the person caring for it. Excellent training is the only answer to all of Jack's issues.

Would I take a Husky on a thruhike? I don't really know. I would be tempted to try it out, but have a plan to get her home and taken care of if things don't work out.

Gravity Man

Jester2000
11-11-2003, 19:34
I was planning on buying Jack a puppy for Christmas. Should I reconsider?

The Weasel
11-11-2003, 22:55
One's right to enjoy the company of one's pet stops COLD when this right intereferes with the right of other folks to enjoy their trail experience without having to put up with untrained, badly attended, dis-obedient, or more than likely, ignored dogs.

Let me see if I can pull this off:

There is a legal maxim (and as a weasel, I should know) that says, "Your rights stop where my nose begins."

Damn. First time I've ever used fewer words for something than Jack did. But his is just as right as the shorter version, in everything else he says: Your dog is not welcome to make my trip miserable. (Hey, I think I did it again!)

The Weasel

Blister
11-11-2003, 23:46
Nothing alive should suit him well, blow it up and/or sew on extra fur to something.

Miss Janet
11-12-2003, 15:51
PLEASE.... Don't even consider giving Jack a puppy! We would have to call the animal welfare people at some point. He tried to feed my dog all the leftover salad and got all offended when Fabian looked at him funny!!

But "Straight Forward", to keep this thread pure, "how do I really feel about dogs on the trail?"

I am not a big hiker and I have taken my dog out for some really great, SHORT, hikes and a few recent overnights. He has done hundreds of miles of day hikes, overnights and a week once with other hikers... thus his trailname... SLACK DAWG. But on a long distance hike... it would be like taking a two year old child!! The 24/7 responsibility would take away from the trail experience I would want to have. I have seen lots of hikers with dogs get into my house and want to take a break from their dog. They leave them unattended for long periods without asking someone to babysit. They expect others to help out with keeping the dog safe, out of the road, out of other peoples stuff, off my neighbors lawns!!!
I have had people with dogs look at me and say..."OH, I never would tie my dog up!"... "I don't use a leash, he stays right with me."... "I don't use flea and tick control chemicals... they are bad for her!" The smartest, best trained, most experienced dog in the world... is still a DOG! He will be protective when you least expect it. He will bite if she feels the need is strong enough. He will eat someone elses food if he is hungry enough. She will chase off after something that she shouldn't... like a bear or a car... even if she has never done that before. I have had some great dog guests over the past few years. Some of them came with very well trained humans that were very responsible and considerate. I am sure that many hostels have had to stop taking dogs because of bad owner behavior or just thoughtlessness.
Even on a hike of just a few weeks most hikers will need to come into a town. So hikers with dogs need to consider what all that means for them and the dog.

Miss Janet
11-12-2003, 16:00
I have seen dozens of hikers ADOPT "stray" dogs on the trail. This is such a bad idea! The hiker is risking their very thruhike, often going to great expense to outfit the dog, then taking a dog out to hike that they do not know and has no hiking experience and just can't do it. Sometimes they are taking a dog that has an owner that is looking for them. The trail goes through lots of "back yards" and just because a dog seems hungry, lost or abandoned doesn't mean they are up for adoption.

This is usually the case with beagles and hounds found on the trail. These Hunting dogs are often seperated from owners and will eventually find their way home.These Hunting dogs found on the trail will often follow a hiker for days if they are being fed. You don't have to like how the hunters deal with the dogs or agree with hunting but please don't take them off the trail with you unless they have a collar with a phone number and YOU are willing to take responsibility for them until their owner can be located. These dogs often end up ran over on the streets of a trail town they do not know or destroyed by the dog pound in towns that have no Humane Society. NEVER REMOVE A HUNTING DOGS RADIO COLLAR!! This has caused a lot of trouble along the AT corridor. I hear some redneck hunters talk about what they will do to the hiker they catch doing it!! I don't want someone to get confronted or hurt by some of these "Bar Hunters!!"

Rain Man
11-12-2003, 18:22
Anyone serious about taking a dog on the AT might want to read several of the books with actual experiences of dog owners.

I read Bill Irwin's book, "Blind Courage," about his thru hike with his seeing eye dog, Orient. Bill is blind. They were known as "The Orient Express." He writes a great deal about Orient. I also heard BIll Irwin speak this past April in Gatlinburg, TN about his thru hike with Orient, who has now since passed on due to dog's short lives.

Also a book by a woman thru hiker, I think called "Walking North." Her dog was shot, but not killed, near a trail town.

There are others.

Rain Man

RenaissanceMan98
11-13-2003, 22:34
"Whoever said they've seen people do all the bad things they've seen dogs do, is missing two important points: One, this is simply an untrue, ridiculous thing to say, and two; even if it were true, which it isn't, this doesn't mean that bad behavior by dogs and their owners should not be commented on. "

The above quote is from Jack Tarlin's Post.

Jack, it is patently absurd, and rather assinine, for you to tell me that a statement I make about MY experience is not true. My post was not about what YOU have seen, it was very clearly about what I have seen. Read your own quote above for clarification. Of course you can come up with your own experiences that may differ, but that doesn't invalidate the thrust of my statement, which, again, was based on MY personal experience. Also, NEVER did I state or imply that bad dog/owner behavior should be ignored, in fact, I encouraged the thread starter to seek dog training and advice from vets who know hiking.

Responsible behavior on trail is up to all of us. If you take a dog, please be considerate of others. If you don't like dogs, or dogs on trail, please be courteous in expressing it, I will listen, others usually will, too. Ditto if you carry a cell phone, a gun, illegal drugs, or if you snore, fart, talk in your sleep, burn things you shouldn't in the fire pits, or hike naked, drink, or smoke.


To get back to the orignal post, I recommend reading through all of these statements. The feelings are rather strong, and mostly point to one thing: Taking your dog is a HUGE set of responsibilities, and you must be honest with yourself about how well you will maintain those responsibilities. Jack is right, your dog does not have the right to ruin his hike, or anyone else's. (My desire, after reading all the negative posts, was merely to attempt to point out that dogs are not the worst offenders of ruining someone's hike, for a little perspective) But you do have the right to take him/her. Just know that doing so makes your hike more about the dog, than about you. It's health, happiness, well-being, behavior, are 100% your responsibility and must come first. This will mean hiking at his/her pace, LEASHING, possibly carrying a halty collar for unruly times. You may need to avoid certain hostels, you may need to hike on after a hard day in order to not annoy other hikers, you may have to rest or even quit for the sake of your dog.

Now for the sake of a little fun, in answer to Jack's list of horrible dog actions:

Things I have seen people do, but never a dog:

Crap in the middle of the trail, and leave it (I'm sure others have seen a dog do this, but I have only seen people do it.)

Get roaring drunk and beat up a hiker who was only trying to sleep, thereby ending his hike.

Get roaring drunk and vomit on another hiker's pack. (I won't stay at that Erwin area hostel again)

Frighten female hikers by making aggressive sexual advances

Rob a bank in Georgia and try to get away on the AT. (This guy was a classic, called himself Richie Rich)

Burn blue jeans, sneakers, plastic in a fire pit

Drink a 12 pack and leave the empty cans in the shelter

Drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and leave the bottle in the shelter

Pull a gun out of his pack and try take down a deer. (To be honest, never saw that one, just heard about it)

Leave cigarette butts from Georgia to Maine

Fill a shelter with his cigarette smoke and refuse to leave 'cause it's raining

Yell on his cell phone, because that obviously makes the connection better

I could write more, my point is not to inflame, but to reiterate, the problem is people.

The Weasel
11-13-2003, 23:16
Responsible behavior on trail is up to all of us....If you don't like dogs, or dogs on trail, please be courteous in expressing it, I will listen, others usually will, too. Ditto if you carry a cell phone, a gun, illegal drugs, or if you snore, fart, talk in your sleep, burn things you shouldn't in the fire pits, or hike naked, drink, or smoke.


Some of you think I hate dogs. Well, I don't. I love dogs...I've been to China, and....well,we won't go there, at least right now. But I gotta draw the line. I've heard how I have to tolerate dogs, and I have, and I will. BUT NOW I GOTTA LISTEN COURTEOUSLY WHEN ALL OF YOU FART? I mean, damn! It's easy to be courteous when some dude is waving a gun, so yeah, I'm cool then. And I didn't complain ONCE (did I, Steve?) when Nicole Kidman met us in Gatlinburg for National Nude Backpacker Day. I was VERY courteous, well, sorta courteous.

But FARTING? And does that mean I have to be DOUBLE courteous when a dog farts? Triple when the dog snores while farting?

This has got to stop, people! There is a limit!


The Weasel

smokymtnsteve
11-13-2003, 23:33
[QUOTE=The Weasel

I mean, damn! It's easy to be courteous when some dude is waving a gun, so yeah, I'm cool then. And I didn't complain ONCE (did I, Steve?) when Nicole Kidman met us in Gatlinburg for National Nude Backpacker Day. I was VERY courteous, well, sorta courteous.


This has got to stop, people! There is a limit!


The Weasel[/QUOTE]

you didn't complain when I waved the gun at you when I "arrested" you hitch-hiking or when we meet nikky in g'burg???? or at least i didn';t HEAR ya complain maybe ya did...

U B talking bout something else and NO you didn't complain as a matter of fact quite supportive IMO!!! THANKS

Noggin
11-14-2003, 00:37
I love dogs...I've been to China, and....well, we won't go there, at least right now.

Weasel pleeze ex-plain i cant quite get that thru my noggin.

sdoownek
11-14-2003, 03:45
Oh, I've just gotta weigh in on this one..

I own, train, and breed Search and Rescue dogs, primarily labs. I was actively searching the Pentagon after 9/11 for 60 hours. The dog food I feed my S&R team costs roughly $2 a pound. My primary search dog is a 2.5 year old yellow(white) lab. I can tell you what he is going to do long before he knows. He has saved my life at least twice, by recognizing danger zones that I've missed. He's located 6 missing children, 2 bodies, and during our 9/11 stint, 31 body parts and 2 cadavers.

He goes with me into Wal-Mart. The grocery store. To get a haircut. Bookstores. Work. Out to eat. Anywhere and everywhere I go, he goes.

The relationship that we have is one based on trust, and when his body language says "Hey, slow down, check this out", I do, without question or hesitation. When I say "TJ, down stay", he will remain there until I tell him to move, and will, quite literally, piss himself if I haven't released him. He'll drop&stop to the ground within 5 feet on command, no matter what he's chasing or how fast he's running. He digs his own catholes, and is fairly good about re-covering as well. He will follow voice, hand, as well as directional eye commands to the point of running into trees and pushing on them.

Want to guess the one place he doesn't go?
Hiking.
Despite the blinding emotional involvment and attachment that some of you have with your dogs, they are not built to hike long distances every day. Let me repeat that---Your dog is not built to hike every day. Not 25 miles, not 10, not 5.

Sure, I know that your dog is different. And I know you've done "xx" miles with him. Right. Whatever.
That does not change the fact that your dog is not built to hike every day, and you're too blinded by emotion to see that.

I'll also say this: My dog is not well trained enough to thru hike, to say nothing of yours that has trouble with "come", "stay" and "heel".

That said, if you want to bring your dog, more power to you. If you bring your dog on the trail, you have the responsibility to have trained him to anticipate everything that he will encounter therein and how to respond accordingly.

The Weasel
11-14-2003, 11:19
Weasel pleeze ex-plain i cant quite get that thru my noggin.

Let me put it delicately. When in China, be VERY careful about ordering "off the menu."

The Weasel

smokymtnsteve
11-14-2003, 11:42
I thought dogs were Korean food...

china like meow?

Jack Tarlin
11-14-2003, 16:25
Ren---

I'm tired of this thread so I'll keep it short:

Nowhere in my post did I say that I doubt your trail experiences were true.
But with all due respect, I think my trail experience and my encounters with trail dogs and their owners is probably greater than your own.

My main points were this:

*Most "dog" problems are really dog OWNER problems

*Most dogs on the Trail don't belong there

*The majority of dog owners don't take enough time to considr, or more than likely, simply don't care how their dog's presence and behavior impacts other folks.

Reciting a litany of objectionable behavior regarding humans made for amusing reading Ren, but that's not what we're talking about here---maybe you're right, and maybe most HUMANS don't belong out there, either.

But this thread is about dogs, and I stand by my comments.

Peaks
11-14-2003, 17:03
So, how about saying OK to dogs on the trail, but not dog owners?

steve hiker
11-15-2003, 19:45
We should lynch the next dog that threatens or bites a human. People have dealt with troublemakers in that manner in the past, and in fact one hiker lynched a mouse that was especially obnoxious. Yup, slipped a piece of twine over his head and hung him from the shelter rafters, in plain view of his comrades. Shelter was pretty quiet at night for awhile after that.

So the next mutt that bares his teeth at a hiker, put a noose around his neck and hang him high, right over the trail. That'll send a message loud and clear.

The Weasel
11-15-2003, 20:54
We should lynch the next dog that threatens or bites a human. People have dealt with troublemakers in that manner in the past, and in fact one hiker lynched a mouse that was especially obnoxious. Yup, slipped a piece of twine over his head and hung him from the shelter rafters, in plain view of his comrades. Shelter was pretty quiet at night for awhile after that.

So the next mutt that bares his teeth at a hiker, put a noose around his neck and hang him high, right over the trail. That'll send a message loud and clear.


Until this post is, I hope, deleted again, I cannot help but say how regrettable this posting is. I can only hope that it is not serious, but even as a jest it is - thoughtlessly and unknowingly, I certainly trust - unacceptable here.

From about 1880 to 1930, 2800 "troublemakers" were lynched in 10 southern states. Of those, 2500 - perhaps more - were African-Americans. That means that, on average, a Black American man, woman or child was murdered every week during that time. It was not the end; hundreds, perhaps thousands of lynchings continued through the '60s - including civil rights workers - and still do, and not only in the South. Of the other 300, many were considered "troublemakers" for being Catholic, Jewish, or foreign-born. Nothing more than that. If you think there is humor in it, check it out:

http://aztlan.net/lynching.jpg

And as for "lynching" animals, well, I'm sorry. There's no humor there, either. And while not in the same category as racial murder, it's a felony in every state of the Union.

The Weasel

Lilred
11-15-2003, 23:43
And as for "lynching" animals, well, I'm sorry. There's no humor there, either. And while not in the same category as racial murder, it's a felony in every state of the Union.

The Weasel

Which town was it that lynched an elephant?????

Lone Wolf
11-16-2003, 01:56
For crissakes Weasel, lighten up! :rolleyes:

Rain Man
11-16-2003, 11:24
Ooooooooooops! Ignore this post.... got put in the wrong place somehow....

Or, as others might have said...

"I made a mistake and now I can't delete it!"

LOL

The Weasel
11-16-2003, 11:27
For crissakes Weasel, lighten up! :rolleyes:

Some things aren't funny.


The Weasel

illininagel
11-16-2003, 13:20
Some things aren't funny.
The Weasel

"We should lynch the next dog that threatens or bites a human. People have dealt with troublemakers in that manner in the past..."
-------------------------------------------------------
The Weasel,

I agree with you on this. The above quote should not be considered acceptable to those participating in this forum. We don't want participants of the forum to get the wrong impression that AT thru-hikers will tolerate racism...

Now, I'm also quite certain the the poster didn't really mean anything by this---it's probably just an attempt at humor and just didn't come out quite right.

Lone Wolf
11-16-2003, 13:29
Where's the racism? Lynching was a form of punishment in this country and many others for a long time. You PC types ASSUME he meant KKK types Hanging colored folks. Grow up. Wise up. You're way too serious.

The Weasel
11-16-2003, 14:07
Where's the racism? Lynching was a form of punishment in this country and many others for a long time. You PC types ASSUME he meant KKK types Hanging colored folks. Grow up. Wise up. You're way too serious.

I assume no such thing. Jews have been lynched - Leo Frank was one example - as have Chinese, Irish - the last Michigan victim of lynching (in 1893), an Irishman is buried not far from where I live - and others, including Catholics, gays, and Indian/Native Americans.

Lynching was never punishment. It is mob action. At its worst it is the festering boil of hatred of a group that the victim represents; at its best it is simply the act of those who are are nothing more than murderers.

It is no more funny than the Holocaust visited upon the Jews by the National Socialists, the genocide in Rwanda, or "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkins. Those who use, or justify, such terms do not understand the terrible pain that those words can bring, or the desensitization to their use that can lead from them. That's why I have no doubt that their use was unknowing and not intended to offend.

But I am grown up, and, perhaps a bit like Bob Dylan wrote, "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." I know better. So do you.

The Weasel

shades of blue
11-16-2003, 14:08
Lynch: to put to death (as by hanging) by mob action without legal sanction. Merriam-Webster dictionary.
I am sure that the guy that posted about lynching dogs that threatened people was not serious. Here is why I think the post was inappropriate. I am a teacher. Kids blow off steam all the time...I hate myself...I'm going to kill myself. Are they serious? Most of the time, no. But what if he is? What if he says.....I'm going to kill....whatever. In this day where people kill other students and teachers (Columbine) it has to be taken seriously. There was a student who accidently shot another student in a local (NC) school system this past week. What if someone reads that post and thinks....damn straight...that's what I'll do ...then does it? So the owner of that dog (think hunters...with guns....) decides to retaliate? Do we really want this on our trail? I believe we have the right to protect ourselves....lynching isn't protecting, it's vigilante punishment. I don't want that responsibility...do you? Too serious? Maybe so...but it's a reality.

Groucho
11-16-2003, 14:23
What does this have to do with hiking the Appalachian Trail?

The Weasel
11-16-2003, 14:31
What does this have to do with hiking the Appalachian Trail?

Nothing. My point exactly.

steve hiker
11-16-2003, 16:00
Au contrair, Weasel. Unruly dogs are a problem on the AT. If we were to lynch a few of them up and down the trail, it would send a signal to other dogs to leave humans alone. You know, the deterent effect. Just like that mouse lynching, after those other mice saw their commrade strung up and hangin from the rafters with a noose around his neck, they didn't bother hikers foodbags for months.

The Weasel
11-18-2003, 10:59
Au contrair, Weasel. Unruly dogs are a problem on the AT. If we were to lynch a few of them up and down the trail, it would send a signal to other dogs to leave humans alone. You know, the deterent effect. Just like that mouse lynching, after those other mice saw their commrade strung up and hangin from the rafters with a noose around his neck, they didn't bother hikers foodbags for months.

I can abide a man who can't spell. I can even abide a man who says things that are just dumb. And I - believe it or not - value those with opinions that differ.

But I have no truck for those who use the language of evil or who suggest evil things, even if they think it humorous.

The Weasel

Lugnut
11-18-2003, 11:41
I was considering building and selling soapboxes for some of y'all to stand on but decided against it for fear of being accused of involvement in a commercial enterprise; although there is potentially a large market here! :banana

Jack Tarlin
11-18-2003, 16:11
The town that's infamous for lynching an elephant was Erwin, Tennessee, tho I think she was actually strung up in nearby Kingsport. I think the year was 1916. When you get to Erwin, there's a marvelous antique/knickknack store actually called "The Hanging Elephant" that sells postcards depicting the episode....a very singular Trail souvenir, unless you happen to be an elephant.

I think this event was fairly unique, as I don't know if it's been repeated anywhere else; maybe Miss Janet can fill us in.

Jack Tarlin
11-18-2003, 16:21
Deep down, I figured some of you are REALLY curious about this.....check out www.blueridgecounty.com/elephant/elephant.html for the lurid details. (And thanx to Google.com for the information!)

Jack Tarlin
11-18-2003, 16:25
Whoops. Try www.blueridgecountry.com/elephant/elephant.html instead

Saluki Dave
11-18-2003, 17:00
The elephant lynching must have had the desired effect. Ya ain't heered of no rogue el-E-phants in Erwin since, have ya?

Groucho
11-18-2003, 17:17
I think this event was fairly unique, as I don't know if it's been repeated anywhere else; maybe Miss Janet can fill us in.

Not entirely "unique". Actually the Erwin episode was something of a copycat situation; they just didn't have enough power for an electrocution. See this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3083029.stm) for details of a previous elephant execution in NYC.

honeyhiker
11-18-2003, 17:56
I wish I hadn't read this thread due to the offensiveness of a couple of answers. It makes me more glad I hike alone, with my dog, who always goes with me on day and overnight hikes. I do wonder if I should start locking my car doors from now on although its amazing the hateful things people can think up regardless. The thought of not bringing her on a long hike is hard to imagine but although my dog is in excellent shape and would love it, there is the consideration of the extra weight her food would entail. Also, while hiking she loses her appetite for dog food, wanting mine, so I have to share. Although her young age and athletic ability makes her an excellent hiking companion, I feel it very high risk on a long term hike and inevitable that most dogs would suffer from malnutrition. There is also the possibility of injury and the magnitude of finding treatment. Could you carry your dog out, remove porcupine quills, treat wounds, etc. I'm sure the dogs pads would take a terrible beating and a vet was quoted in an AT thru hike book I just read that he does not advize people bringing their dog. I guess a lot of dogs are rescued on the trail and Maine is brutal.
Happy hiking : )

Nightwalker
11-21-2003, 11:03
Blue Jay--

Please re-read the last paragraph of my post; this guy asked a sincere question, and I think he deserves a fairer response than the one you gave him......there's no secret that I'm not a fan of dogs on the A.T. either, but I think we're all capable of discussing this in a more positive manner.

Ignore Blue Jay. He apparently lives to troll. I've only been reading this board for a day, and he pops up on most topics, always starting or increasing controversy.

Frank

Blue Jay
11-21-2003, 11:15
[QUOTE=franklooper Ignore Blue Jay. He apparently lives to troll. I've only been reading this board for a day, and he pops up on most topics, always starting or increasing controversy.

Frank[/QUOTE]

I've been here a year, you've been here a day, who's the Troll? I do like hanging out under bridges, though so you may be right. What happened to God is Love from the religious thread?

Pirate
11-21-2003, 13:21
Dogs should be left at home. Take them for a hike around YOUR neiborhood not on the trail.

Nightwalker
11-21-2003, 13:45
I've been here a year, you've been here a day, who's the Troll? I do like hanging out under bridges, though so you may be right. What happened to God is Love from the religious thread?

I try to practice love, but I can get upset, like anyone else. I shouldn't have singled you out, but it seems as if 2/3 of your posts are intended to bait or cause controversy, at least in the bunch-o threads that I've read. I'm sincerely sorry if I'm mistaken. Truthfully, I should have never made that post. I'm sorry for that. :(

Blue Jay
11-21-2003, 14:56
It's not 2/3, it's 3/4.

Nightwalker
11-21-2003, 15:12
It's not 2/3, it's 3/4.

Sorry, my mistake. :)

Frank

smokymtnsteve
12-02-2003, 09:00
It's not 2/3, it's 3/4.

3/4????I thought more like 98% :banana

Blue Jay
12-02-2003, 10:13
3/4????I thought more like 98% :banana

Alright, 90% but that's my final offer.

Nightwalker
12-02-2003, 19:03
Freaks

all of you

Speak for myself. :)

Frank

steve hiker
12-03-2003, 00:54
I was out dogging around on the aye tee sniffing around this shack by the trail and found me some good food, when these human started yelling and threw big heavy sticks and stones at me. just about broke my dawg bones.

That wasn't very nice to treat me that way especially in the middle of dinner so that night I sneaked in the shadows and took half a doo doo near their camp fire. Then I went to the path between the fire and their tents and took another half a doo doo.

Then one of them step in it at the fire and yelled "eeewwwwww someone took a doo doo here" and went stomping around trying to get it off his boots. Then another one of them steped in doo doo going to his tent and yelled "eeeewwwwwwwwww someone took a doo doo here tooooooooooo."

Then they all said "this place is full of doo doo" or something like that and packed up and leave and left me some more food.

goshawk
12-04-2003, 10:20
Baltimore jack (jack Tarlin) has done alot to help back packers over the years( he has certainly helped me) and hes got more time in the priveys along the at then most of you reading this have time on the at! This shows how imature some of you are and it's nice to see one of the trail legends in cyber space because most aren't. I suppose some of you are just jealous of him. You should be! :bse By

Jack Tarlin
12-05-2003, 17:28
Goshawk---

Thanx for the kind words, but this is ALWAYS going to be a subject that creates controversy. People who don't care for dogs (and this does not include me, by the way) are always going to resent their presence on the A.T.; people who love dogs will always find a way to never fault or criticize them; people who wish to travel or hike twith their dogs will always do so regardless of how other folks feel. I only hope that people contemplating hiking with a dog take the time and trouble to train their dog thoroughly; to not hike with a puppy or a dog that is being "trail-trained"; to consult extensively with their veterinarian before their hikes; to contact or communicate with other folks who've thru-hiked with dogs to get feeedback and advice; and to ALWAYS be aware of how their dog's presence is impacting others. In any case, this is what I HOPE that folks contemplating bringing their dog along do.....the problem, of course, is that very few dog owners actually do all of this, and some of them do NONE of this; this is the principal reason that many trail dogs create or experience problems during their hikes, and this why most of them are better off left at home. As I said several times, this is an OWNER problem more than it is an animal one.

Jewels
12-19-2003, 13:36
Don't get me wrong in reading this, because I really do like dogs and have in the past taken a dog out with me to hike. However, when I did take her with me, I had to take into consideration how well behaved and friendly my dog was to me and those she knew, which may not pertain to those she didn't know on the trail. Taking this into consideration I never took her to hike where I knew there would be an abundance of other hikers, just out of consideration for them. Something you must keep in mind is it is in a dogs nature to protect themselves and their owner when threatened. Being threatened can sometimes just occur by being approached by an unfamiliar bearded man with a pack on and hiking poles in their hands or a woman with a bug net over her head making a unexpected gesture toward you. So you see, as nice as a dog is to you may not always be the same with others...so you for all those who do choose to bring a dog, you can call out and say "He's friendly and doesn't bite! Don't worry he won't bother you." and yes this has happened first hand to me, the next minute the dog is headed full speed toward that person, while you are frantically calling him to come back, his hair up on his back and a growl in his throat, thus putting the persons guard up to protect him/herself at any cost causing the dog also to instinctively protect. Yes again this has happened to me on many many occasions while out, running, hiking, biking and skiing. And although I am not afraid of dogs, the first thing I do is to stop what I am doing (which is kind of annoying when I am running or skiing at a full pace) and let the dog approach and hope I am not a threat to it. And even in doing that on some of those occasions I have still been jumped on by these animals and have had deep scratches put into my legs, holes put into my clothes from their nails, have had my ankles snapped at (while trying to unclip out of clipless pedals on a mt. bike) and have gotten plain muddy from their feet. All which can be very or should I say is annoying. Still they are really great loyal dogs and are only protecting you, but sometimes they are better off left at home just out of consideration for others.

Preacher Dude
12-19-2003, 15:20
Very good discussion...,.good points made on both sides. I love dogs...I love meeting dogs on the trail (but I haven't had the negative experiences as some of you). The comments concerning the health of the dog and whether a dog can handle the rigors of the trail are precisely the reason I have not taken my 10 year old Lab up on the trail. When I get a younger dog ...I plan to bring him/her along on short hikes but never on long ones and certainly not on a "thru". My reasoning for having a dog along is purely for companionship. On recent hikes, I have gone days without seeing another person....so my dog would provide company. I certainly do agree that the reason for bringing a dog along is a human preference and no dog that I know of would choose to walk even my modest pace of 10 to 12 miles a day. I am reminded of the story I heard from some thru hikers of how they had left the trail and hitch-hiked to Helen, GA for some R&R. When they returned to the trail their dog realized where they were and refused to get out of the van they had hitched a ride with.....so they had to make arrangements to send him home. Thanks again for all of your enlightening input on this subject.
Stonewall

Brushy Sage
12-20-2003, 13:41
I met some great dogs on the AT in 2002. I did not enjoy having to avoid dog poop left on the trail. The lasting impression is that having well-behaved dogs on the trail made for a positive experience.

pastormark
12-22-2003, 16:53
After reading the "Dogs on the Trail" thread that was started some time back by shadesofblue68 I wanted to respond.

A couple of friends and I just finished a 43 mile hike with my dog, Dandee. We had a blast and my dog behaved prefectly. It was beautiful !!

I talked to each of the guys after the trip to get their honest opinion (and believe me they will give it to me) and all of them said the dog was great and they wanted him to go along the next time.

Nobody likes to get jumped on, growled at or kept awake by some other man's best friend. And I have been cussed more than once for whacking somebody else's loose dog with one of my leki's, I will not tolerate it.

I take full responsibility for myself and my dog on the trail.

For the dog. I take him on a walk almost every evening after work with his pack on. He is well trained and in great shape. He loves it. I don't take him when its too hot.

For my hiking partners, Dandee always carries something useful. Since he packs between 15-18 pounds and only needs about half that for his own gear water and food he has plenty of left over space for a community water filter, stove and fuel, and a box of little Debbie cakes.

For other people on the trail, unless they appoach him, he doesn't even get near them.

I have never had anyone complain about my dog.

Lone Wolf
12-22-2003, 17:21
The dog shouldn't carry anything, especially other people's gear or food.

Blue Jay
12-23-2003, 08:45
For my hiking partners, Dandee always carries something useful. Since he packs between 15-18 pounds and only needs about half that for his own gear water and food he has plenty of left over space for a community water filter, stove and fuel, and a box of little Debbie cakes.

You require your dog to carry 15 to 18 pounds for your hiking partners. You are truly a very low type of life form.

c.coyle
12-23-2003, 12:25
Nobody likes to get jumped on, growled at or kept awake by some other man's best friend. And I have been cussed more than once for whacking somebody else's loose dog with one of my leki's, I will not tolerate it....I have never had anyone complain about my dog.

Could it be because he's too tired to jump or growl?

Then again, I guess some breeds are bred to carry stuff, so maybe we shouldn't be jumping all over you. What kind of dog do you have?

Blue Jay
12-23-2003, 15:02
Could it be because he's too tired to jump or growl?

Then again, I guess some breeds are bred to carry stuff, so maybe we shouldn't be jumping all over you.

Yes, those breeds are called donkeys or llamas or oxen or horses. Dogs are breed for many things. A pack animal is NOT one of them.

Jack Tarlin
12-23-2003, 15:31
Blue Jay--

I probably agree with you but it'd be nice if you could post on occasion without insulting people, calling names, and otherwise being unpleasant.....it's possible to object to people without becoming objectionable, and it detracts from your posts. Instead of insulting the guy like you did in your first post, doesn't it make more sense to tell him WHY his dog shouldn't be packing so much weight? People respond better to criticism and suggestions when they don't feel personally attacked; this might not only make him re-think his dog's pack, but it'd reflect better on you as well.

Blue Jay
12-23-2003, 15:35
I like dogs, but you are correct. I will try to respond better to those who abuse them.

Rain Man
12-23-2003, 23:35
Blue Jay--

I probably agree with you but it'd be nice if you could post on occasion without insulting people, calling names, and otherwise being unpleasant.....it's possible to object to people without becoming objectionable, and it detracts from your posts. Instead of insulting the guy like you did in your first post, doesn't it make more sense to tell him WHY his dog shouldn't be packing so much weight? People respond better to criticism and suggestions when they don't feel personally attacked; this might not only make him re-think his dog's pack, but it'd reflect better on you as well.

Jack,

FWIW, there is only one WhiteBlaze member on my "Ignore" list, and Blue Jay is it. Since I put him on my Ignore list about a week or two ago, reading WhiteBlaze has gotten even more enjoyable that it already was.

You make an EXCELLENT point about Blue Jay's caustic and belittling "attitude." Thankfully, until he "grows up," at least there is something the rest of us can do. "Ignore" him.

Rain Man

.

smokymtnsteve
12-24-2003, 00:30
Blue Jay is one of the reasons that I read whiteblaze.net

even when I'm real busy I read ANY thread that BLue Jay has posted on...

Chappy
12-24-2003, 04:05
Blue Jay is one of the reasons that I read whiteblaze.net

even when I'm real busy I read ANY thread that BLue Jay has posted on...

How does it go..."Birds of a feather flock together." Yeah, that's it. I guess that even means in the Smoky's.

Have to agree with Rain Man and Jack. My first few posts here brought some barbs that I didn't particularily like, but I stuck around; hopefully, Pastormark will, too.
Note to the PM: The Thought Police are alive and well here as are those who choose to give wiseacre responses to legitimate questions. hang in. There are many who always give thoughtful responses.

Blue Jay
12-24-2003, 09:10
While I am hardly surprised by The Rain and Chappy responses, after all Rain Man never even read what I wrote and Chappy is stationed in Korea where Dog is merely an item on the menu. I am surprised there are so few dog lovers, outside of Lone Wolf and Jack, here who believes a poor dog carrying 18 pounds of other peoples gear is not only abuse, but intentional abuse. Oh well, I also mistakenly assumed most hikers would be environmentalists.

Chappy
12-24-2003, 09:53
While I am hardly surprised by The Rain and Chappy responses, after all Rain Man never even read what I wrote and Chappy is stationed in Korea where Dog is merely an item on the menu. I am surprised there are so few dog lovers, outside of Lone Wolf and Jack, here who believes a poor dog carrying 18 pounds of other peoples gear is not only abuse, but intentional abuse. Oh well, I also mistakenly assumed most hikers would be environmentalists.

Hey BJ: Meant no harm, man. Just trying to add a little humor. Somedays are pretty miserable over here while all my family is in US.

I am a dog lover. Just last week received word from my wife that one of our two Great Pyrenees was killed. Apparently he climbed out of a six foot fence and before my wife could get him back he was hit by a car. Pretty devastating news! Our dogs are used to guard our miniature sheep. I've just located one in a rescue organization that we plan to adopt and have also contracted for a puppy. GPs are great dogs...big and muscular, but would never use them to haul stuff. You mentioned dogs were not pack animals, but donkeys and llamas are...two other animals my wife also breeds. We don't really sell them, they're for school field trips. In case anyone might think I'm advertising - we don't charge the children or the schools. We just love our farm and like to share it.
And we do consider ourselves environmentalists. I just feel it's better to try to win people to my point of view by using logic and sound reason...not by calling them names.
BTW: How do you know about kaegogi? Don't see or hear much about dog eating in Korea now. Different story in 1988 when I was here for the first time. Seems the Olympics and the word stage has put more of a stigma on that. I guess it's primarily an old timer thing.

smokymtnsteve
12-24-2003, 09:55
How does it go..."Birds of a feather flock together." Yeah, that's it. I guess that even means in the Smoky's.

.


you must be talking about yourself, Rainman and Jack???

HYOH

Blue Jay
12-24-2003, 10:23
Sorry about the Korea comment, I clearly know nothing about what they eat since I've never been there. My donkey only carries the neighborhood kids once in a while. Actually you can't say they ride him since he just stands there until they get bored and get off. The only problem is that they kiss him and get fake lipstick on his face. Thanks for the backup Smokey, I owe you one (or two or three).

Lone Wolf
12-24-2003, 10:35
I ate marinated, grilled monkey arms in Okinawa. Nobody had pet dogs. We used to watch caged cat fights and bet on which one would win. Hey Rainman, put me on your ignore list too. Pull your nose outa Jack's butt. Me, Blue Jay, and smokey have forgotten more about the AT than you and Jack will ever know. Happy Kwanza! :sun

ATN2N
12-24-2003, 10:47
I have a golden and love dogs, always have. I hike to enjoy nature and the only non nature item I want to see is an occasional person. I do not want someone elses dog on me unless they are invited. Also if folks bring their dogs they need to carry out their waste at the minimum, same goes for horse and mule folks. It is no secret what body waste (human and animals) do to water and that is what WE have to drink? Have seen too many dogs, horses and mules do number 1 and 2 in the only water source around. In a few words: Leave No Trace. All bathroom facilities for anyone at least 200 feet from water sources.

Blue Jay
12-24-2003, 10:50
Hey, I know you're going to say my nose is in Jack's butt too, but please be nice to Jack. It is the holiday season and the poor old guy is retired and will never thruhike again.

Lone Wolf
12-24-2003, 10:51
Bulldinky! :cool:

smokymtnsteve
12-24-2003, 11:07
I like be bim bop..eat it at a local Korean restaurant..the owner who is Korean tells me that he eats dogs..

ATN2N
12-24-2003, 11:11
Oh crap, guess I missed the point, I thought this was a backpacking website and the issue was what we thought about dogs on the trail. You can send your barbed emails back and forth to each other and let the backpackers and hikers have some peace.

Lone Wolf
12-24-2003, 11:21
Oh for crissakes, lighten up! :rolleyes:

Jack Tarlin
12-24-2003, 16:02
Blue Jay---

Your last post was pretty damned funny! Merry Christmas! And the same to you, too, Wolf. Sorry to hear you say you've forgotten so much about the Trail, but then again, you're not exactly in the first bloom of youth, and you're entitled to the occasional "senior moment." In any case, Whiteblaze is a wonderful place to refresh your memory and maybe learn something from us comparative newcomers to the Trail, so keep your visits and kind comments coming, it's always such a pleasure to see you here!

And Happy holidays to the rest of you, too. I'm off to church.

smokymtnsteve
12-24-2003, 19:04
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by attroll

Sort of like the thread dealing with dogs on the trail. It started out great but now it is starting to turn into what this thread is now. It is getting way off topic talking about eating dogs in Korea ect., and will have to be dealt with unless it gets back on topic.

.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------(copied from "peta" thread)

troll about the dog eating in Korea ...I think that the point there is that people view dogs very differently according to the thier cultural background...

some think that dogs should not even carry any load ......

while others folks see them as pack animals and some folks see them as food....

so that thread and this thread are somewhat related....

How about a thread dealing with the trail subject of Korean and Korean friendly hikers eating dogs on the trail....the ulitmate in light-weight hiking ...

FOOD THAT CARRIES ITSELF!

Chappy
12-24-2003, 19:08
I like be bim bop..eat it at a local Korean restaurant..the owner who is Korean tells me that he eats dogs..

He's probably one of those old-timers I was talking about. Where does he get his dog meat - at animal shelters?

smokymtnsteve
12-24-2003, 19:13
they raise special dogs to eat according to what the owner said.

don't know if they would make good hiking dogs are not ;)

oyvay
12-25-2003, 01:19
Rain Man - yes it is possible to get the poison ivy oil on you second hand from a dog that you pet or that rubs up against you.

Rain man, I can say with experience, yes humans can get poison ivy from dog fur. I got it this year in July. My right calf got the worst of it, the first week was the worst until the blisters subsided. I would not wish it on anyone (although rubbing the stuff on bin laden and saddam could be fun). :D

Former Easy
12-26-2003, 00:42
I haven't eaten dog meat before, but I think they should put it on the US market, I think all the dogs that shelters kill, should be put to good use with skins and meat etc..........

When they kill a horse they use alot of the horse for products ....... why not cats and dogs

people have rabbits foots, racoon tail hats, etc ....... why not cat and dogs

screwysquirrel
01-02-2004, 02:43
I'm surprised that Lone Wolf even had that gall to put down a "Trail Legend like Baltimore Jack". Ha! I Guess that Jack has had a religious conversion in the last few years. As the Baltimore Jack I met on the AT in 2000 when we were hiking in the Smokies and when he was with Weatherman and Uncle Walt at the motel in Gatlinburg, then when he almost got knocked out by a chunk of ice that fell off a frozen tree by Charlies Bunion and in Hot Springs, N.C at their TrailFest, where he won first prize wearing his Joker stuff in the parade. But I guess with this forum here anybody can become a trail Legend. Don't get me wrong though, Jack has a lot of trail knowledge but I don't think that he has achieved the LEGEND STAUS yet. I'ld believe that Seiko or LW, and Pirate has about as much knowledge that he does. But then again this might be another Baltimore Jack that carried a Jack Daniels flask I met on the AT in 2000, and he didn't think that mutts belonged on the the AT with other hikers.

Nightwalker
01-02-2004, 12:36
I ate marinated, grilled monkey arms in Okinawa. Nobody had pet dogs. We used to watch caged cat fights and bet on which one would win. Hey Rainman, put me on your ignore list too. Pull your nose outa Jack's butt. Me, Blue Jay, and smokey have forgotten more about the AT than you and Jack will ever know. Happy Kwanza! :sun

Just so you know, not everyone gives a flying rat's butt about what you think. If you contributed more and grouched/bitched/whined less (hee hee) that might be different.

Yes, as we all know by now, you've hiked the AT 13 million times, but I probably speak for more than myself when I say that you can just keep what you know, thanks, as getting anything useful from you is just not worth the price of admission.

Frank

P.S. Put me on your ignore list and both of us'll probably be happier. Have a nice day.

Lone Wolf
01-02-2004, 12:41
I love you too, Frank. :p Bite me.

smokymtnsteve
01-02-2004, 12:48
everybody makes out liek doing some hiking on the AT is a really a hard thing to do ..needing lots of info..all you have to do is just hike,,,what's the big deal anyway?

Rain Man
01-02-2004, 13:23
everybody makes out liek doing some hiking on the AT is a really a hard thing to do ..needing lots of info..all you have to do is just hike,,,what's the big deal anyway?

One Word ... MYSTIQUE.

.

Nightwalker
01-02-2004, 14:16
everybody makes out liek doing some hiking on the AT is a really a hard thing to do ..needing lots of info..all you have to do is just hike,,,what's the big deal anyway?

A lot of us just want to know what worked and what didn't. I hike about 1k miles-per-year normally, but that's all in 3-to-10-day spurts. A few months is different, and thankfully 90% of the ex-thrus want to help.

Frank

Blue Jay
01-02-2004, 14:27
A lot of us just want to know what worked and what didn't. I hike about 1k miles-per-year normally, but that's all in 3-to-10-day spurts. A few months is different, and thankfully 90% of the ex-thrus want to help.

Frank

A thruhike is almost always done in 3-to-10-day spurts. You just don't go home in between. If you have someone at home they can mail (or bring) you anything you would have obtained if you went home in between. If you hike 1k miles per year it is more likely that you know as much as, if not more than a thru.

Peaks
01-02-2004, 16:41
everybody makes out liek doing some hiking on the AT is a really a hard thing to do ..needing lots of info..all you have to do is just hike,,,what's the big deal anyway?

You are right, it really shouldn't be a big deal. Now, the only real difference between a long distance hike and a short distance hike is resupply. That takes some figureing out. Best way to figure it out is to buy either Wingfoot's Handbook or the ALDHA Companion. And then do some planning.

Plenty of people thru-hiked successfully before the Internet.

Nightwalker
01-04-2004, 01:21
A thruhike is almost always done in 3-to-10-day spurts. You just don't go home in between. If you have someone at home they can mail (or bring) you anything you would have obtained if you went home in between. If you hike 1k miles per year it is more likely that you know as much as, if not more than a thru.

Actually, I'ved learned quite a lot about food, in particular, but other useful stuff as well. I do have fun going testing new things I've learned (any excuse to disappear into the woods for a few days), but it'd take me lots longer to learn some of the stuff myself.

Frank

B Thrash
01-04-2004, 21:14
Anyone with the intention of taking a dog on the trail needs to read Weasel's reply and use common sense before even thinking about taking any animal on a thru-hike or even a long section hike. (Leave the dog home).

Jaybird
01-06-2004, 12:49
OKAY KIDS........PLAY NICE!

personally, i'm not much in favor of having dogs on the A.T..
although, i have taken a leashed dog (female golden retriever)on state park trails.

i'm not in favor of the animal carrying more than a 3rd of its body weight in its own food & water. The owner should be responsible for food & water anyway IMHO. :D

if you dont wanna be responsible for your animal...leave it @ the kennel!


see ya'll up the trail in 2004!

Kozmic Zian
02-09-2004, 12:25
Well, as I see it boys, Leave the Dogs at Home. I am a dog lover, and animal rights activist. I love all animals, but Da Trail is not the best environment for them. Like the others said, too many things can happen. Dogs at the very least, are unpredictable, and dependant. No matter how well behaved and trained an animal is (witness the recent attack by trained Tiger on Trainer in News), invariably something weird will happen. It's Murphy's Law on Da Trail, so expect the unexpected. If you're out there to hike and enjoy Da Trail, don't mess up you're chances to do so, buy bringing along an 'accident waiting to happen'. Like, I said, I love my dog, 'Dandee Boy' and would love to bring him up to smell the roses, but I know it's not in his best interest....and I know I can't. So, remember before you decide to bring them, 'Is this in his/her best interest?' Now, I'm not sayin' for a day hike or few days it's impossible (tho' its problematic)....A distance Hike is really not something you'd like to do with your pet. Unless, you're willing to risk all the things that Jack, L. Wolf, and the others mentioned. At the least, It's a BIG IF..................KZ@
------------------------------------------------
Some Things You Can Only See By Opening Your Heart....Inuit

SorFinger
02-09-2004, 15:01
On which parts of the trail are dogs strictly prohibited? GSMNP and Baxter? Does this include ALL dogs or or is there an exception for fully trained and certified service dogs?

And for all of you don't think dogs should be on the trail, how do you feel about service dogs who are trained to assist their partners with things they are unable to do on their own?

Lone Wolf
02-09-2004, 15:06
Yes, GSMNP and Baxter, dogs are forbidden except for service dogs. In SNP they must be on a leash.

SorFinger
02-09-2004, 15:25
As a responsible service dog owner, I have an obligation to keep her on a leash all the time anyway. The only time I take her of the the leash is at home and at an enclosed dog park. I have yet to take her hiking with me, but will as soon as I get her some doggie boots & a small pack.

azchipka
02-13-2004, 03:25
There is no such thing as a bad dog. Just like there is no such thing as a bad child. There are only bad owners and parents. If something bad happens with a dog on the trail dont take it out on the dog take it out on the owners period.

I am personal curious if all the wildlife on the At gets together once a month and has conversations about letting humans on the trail. About half of them say ya humans are fine and dandy on the trail while the other half says no the dont belong.

Every night the mice in the shelters get together and have big dicussions about letting humans in the cabins.

So what about the people who bring cats on the trail? I bring a stuffed animal on the trail is that ok?

I will say right away I would prefer a well behaved dog in the shelter with me then lets say the drunk go who throws up on you in the middle of the night, or the guy who snores loud enough to shake the ground around the shelter, or what about the guy who steals your food or gear in the middle of the night.

Just like people people there are some animals that should stay home and others that should come along.

Skeemer
02-13-2004, 09:25
Sorry, there are too bad dogs...just like there are evil people...both need to be put down.

Kozmic Zian
02-13-2004, 11:43
There is no such thing as a bad dog. Just like there is no such thing as a bad child. There are only bad owners and parents. If something bad happens with a dog on the trail dont take it out on the dog take it out on the owners period.

I am personal curious if all the wildlife on the At gets together once a month and has conversations about letting humans on the trail. About half of them say ya humans are fine and dandy on the trail while the other half says no the dont belong.

Every night the mice in the shelters get together and have big dicussions about letting humans in the cabins.

So what about the people who bring cats on the trail? I bring a stuffed animal on the trail is that ok?

I will say right away I would prefer a well behaved dog in the shelter with me then lets say the drunk go who throws up on you in the middle of the night, or the guy who snores loud enough to shake the ground around the shelter, or what about the guy who steals your food or gear in the middle of the night.

Just like people people there are some animals that should stay home and others that should come along.

Yea......But are you azchipka, saying that it's up to the individual animal rather he/she wants to come on the trail? After saying, no dogs are bad, it's owners.? To clarify....again....It's not the dogs who's behavior alows them to be acceptable on the trail or the owners attitude. It's the conditions, mostly the sharp rock that affects their feet. The carrying of the pannier, the pounding. We can hardly take it, much less the dogs. The question is weather or not the conditions on the trail are conducive to the dogs well being> If not, and its only going to cause the animal stress and the owner stress, and those around them stress, then what's the point. I personally will say this again: I love dogs and all animals. But I think for the animals best interest, the AT for a distance hike is not the place for them to be. KZ@

Percival
05-29-2004, 18:40
There is no such thing as a bad dog. Just like there is no such thing as a bad child. There are only bad owners and parents. If something bad happens with a dog on the trail dont take it out on the dog take it out on the owners period.
I'd like to agree with you, but let's face the facts. Some dogs are bred to be aggressive. Rotweilers, pit bulls, certain others. I'm not saying no dog in these lines can be well behaved enought to take on the trail, but you have to consider the dog's inherent disposition before deciding to take them on the trail. You don't want an inherently aggressive dog seeing a strange human, in this case a hiker, as prey to be chased down or worse.

minnesotasmith
06-05-2004, 20:21
Here is a link showing that using dogs as pack animals is not that rare in the U.S.: http://www.westga.edu/~bquest/1997/mush.html

21% of respondents to Mushing Magazine's poll here used dogs to carry packs for hikers. I found plenty of other articles on the Web showing that people in the toolies are known to do this, and have it work out OK. I'd have the dog carry its own food and some water (in a pack designed for dogs), and that's it. Dogs will happily drink some stuff you wouldn't, so I expect if there is any water above swamp-quality around, you won't have to treat water for your pooch.

Now, to my personal experience with Siberian Huskies: I've owned 3, all mixes, ranging from 75% to 37.5%. Unless you are an Olympic athlete, they will walk or run you into the ground if you give them the chance. I've gone on 3 mile walks with them right after someone else brought them back from a long walk, and they hardly slowed down (pulled any less hard) one bit from start to finish, unless it was an OLD dog. When I then brought them back home and tied them back up, I invariably got plaintive "Why are we stopping so SOON?" looks from them. I've then gone inside, come back outside, and picked up an unattached leash in sight of the dogs in order to move it somewhere. 100% of the time, the dogs' reactions were "Hot *****, we're gonna go for a walk again! YAY!!". The saying with Sibs is that "one Siberian can keep three people fit". Done correctly, I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone would say that a Sib can't handle the same mileage that a human can. That said, I see these considerations about hiking with a dog, especially with a Sib:

1) Huskies like it COOL. IMO, if the air temp is going to go much above 55*F., don't try to go for any kind of distance (like over 4 miles per DAY), and walk it like you would if you had an 8-YO child along (e.g., slow with lots of stops). They seem happiest below freezing; only under about -20*F have I ever seen ANY Sib act at all irritated that it was cold out. Far more typical were all the times that I would come home about 11:00 PM on a winter night when it was -5* or -10*, and my big male Sib/Mastiff mix was taking a happy relaxed snooze on top of the snow out in the middle of the lawn (tied up to a long run, of course), ignoring his insulated dog house 15' away. I'd walk over to him, and he'd roll over on his back so I could give him a belly rub. He would have melted (it would be refrozen ice) about an 8" deep sleeping pit, in shape and size a lot like the holes dogs commonly dig in soil during summer to take cool naps in. His fricking belly would be like an electric blanket on high, at least 70*F, it seemed. That dog did not belong ABOVE freezing, frankly; weather only bothered him if it involved rain or temps over 55*F. He never once used his doghouse that I saw unless it was raining; he hated rain and even mild heat, but did not seem to even notice snowfall short of a blizzard accompanied by >30 mph winds.

So, if you want to take a Sib hiking, do it when you can keep the max air temps under about 50*F; below freezing would be MUCH better from the dog's point of view.

2) They will run off if you have them off a leash. For that reason, and because IMO there is no domestic animal alive that has one ounce of right to be unrestrained off its owner's property, you must have them on a leash 100% of the time. Note that I did NOT say 99.999% of the time. IMO only a completely inconsiderate, do-us-all-a-favor-and-give-up-hiking-in-favor-of-watching-TV-sitcoms absolute MORON would hike off his own property with an off-leash dog. I don't care if you have devoted your entire life to training your dog to operate off a leash, have won every award the AKC has for how your dog comes when called, etc.; first put your dog on a leash, put duct tape over the catch for the duration of your hike so you don't ever "forget" and let him loose "accidentally", and THEN tell me all your B.S. about how your dog comes when called, so you are exempt from normal civility requirements towards me without my prior OK. Or, rather, don't bother telling me all that, because you are NOT so exempt. Leashed, or left at home; those are the choices with dogs off your own property (at home, you can use a fence, leash, or keep it inside the house).

3) Sibs are used to operating on snow. They have unusual feet with extra hair that keeps them from getting snow and ice in between their pads, so their need for anti-snow "booties" is less than for other breeds. That said, of course they can have trouble with burrs/sandspurs/thorns on their feet, getting cut on glass or sharp rock edges, etc. If I went for a thru-hike with a dog, I'd have it wear booties, and carry extras plus a sewing kit to repair them. Checking your dog's feet daily, and if he ever seems to favor them or slow down, would be a good idea while hiking IMO.

4) If your dog is loose and comes up to me threateningly (growling and acting like it is about to bite me) while I am minding my own business outside your nonshelter campsite, I reserve the right to smash its head in with an oak walking stick, right in front of you, your wife, your elderly grandmother with the weak heart, both of your small children, and an entire troop of Brownies looking on. If you gave a rat's *ss about your dog, it would be tied up; if you don't care about what happens to your dog, how in the world could you expect that anyone else would?

I will likely respond to a loose dog that approaches me in accordance with how it is acting. A friendly dog will get its ears rubbed with one hand and told "Nice doggy!" while I grab its collar with the other hand and call out "I've got your loose dog! Please bring your leash over now! If you've lost your leash, I've got some rope you can use". (If you then tell me your dog is loose intentionally, I will retort with something that indicates that I think you are in the same social class as copraphagic pedophiles, and release the dog.) If the dog is neutrally inquisitive, neither friendly or looking on the verge of attack, I'll put my back to a tree or boulder (if available), put both hands on my walking stick so that I am holding it like I would a baseball bat, keep the tip pointed right at the dog's face, and say, "Mac, come get your loose dog NOW.". (If the dog then switches over to growling, or comes closer, I'll swing my stick, aiming for his head, as hard as I can from the first swing; I might instead throw a fist-sized rock at it as hard as I can, if one is easily available.) If a dog comes over and bites me, I will start pounding it with my walking stick with all my strength, stomping and kicking it with my size 13 boots etc., until it is either dead or gets away. A small dog may be more easily dealt with by grabbing it one-handed by a back leg and hurling it wherever will be least desirable from the dog's point of view; while cactus or yucca will not likely be available on the AT, from what I've read there will often be nearby convenient dropoffs or steep slopes on the AT to chunk it over; even 5' or 10' of fall would be worth aiming for IMO. I don't think trying to strangle a small (under 30 pound) dog is likely wise due to proximity to its teeth unless you have serious gloves on (Arctic-warmth thickness or rock-climbing gloves you could shell oysters in), but I have nothing against the idea if a dog is trying to bite me or just did.

5) Pure Sibs (or ones mixed with wolf) tend to be lousy watchdogs WRT people. I would expect the pure Sibs to typically use the "lick-'em-to-death" defense tactic against strange people invading your nonshelter-area off-trail camp that get within reach of their leash. (The wolf-Sib mixes will likely just silently hide as best they can, typically being shy toward people they don't know WELL.) They will certainly let you know if any animals come along, though; great for bears and other dogs; not so great if it's tiny animals you'd rather not trade sleep for the knowledge that they are nearby. As Sibs love to hunt small stuff like mice, shrews, voles, etc., even through several feet of snow, I suspect that a camp with a Sib would have less than the usual degree of trouble from minor pest animals. My Sib/mastiff mix once killed and partly ate what I believe was a muskrat that weighed at least 20# when alive; this was a 75# dog, though. Purebred Sibs are much smaller, especially if female; don't be surprised if a Sib is only about 40 pounds.

6) Taking a dog along on the AT sounds like it could be fun, but also that it would often be a BIG hassle. Going into towns, dodging around "no-dogs-allowed" areas like the Smokies, conflicts with other hikers or townies (who wants to get beaten up/sued/arrested over their dog's actions?), transportation other than in a car you own, going through the roughest parts of the trail, extra trail expense for dog food supplies, and of course the extra risk of another creature whose getting injured may mean you not getting to Katahdin are all apparent downsides to having a dog along. NWIH would I personally take a dog along on my first thru-hike; I MIGHT consider it for my second. If I were doing a sectional hike or that second thru-hike in winter (with a breed meant for that season), when there are fewer other hikers (sharing the trail with me to be irritated and scaring off the bears for me some), the odds I'd actually bring a dog is higher. Too, women hiking solo who do not want to hike or camp with other people may have a higher desire to bring a dog; make it a dog that is less than half Sib, though, or it likely won't be much of a watchdog WRT people.

Pencil Pusher
06-06-2004, 05:35
I'd like to agree with you, but let's face the facts. Some dogs are bred to be aggressive. Rotweilers, pit bulls, certain others. I'm not saying no dog in these lines can be well behaved enought to take on the trail, but you have to consider the dog's inherent disposition before deciding to take them on the trail. You don't want an inherently aggressive dog seeing a strange human, in this case a hiker, as prey to be chased down or worse.
Owners affect the rottweiler's temperament. It's a common misperception those dogs are inherently evil. Gooser the rottweiler, the biggest wuss of a dog and nice as all get out. People still freaked out on the trail, even on a short leash, which wound up pissing me off more and more. I don't agree with this talk of dogs on trails. I'll do what I think is right, irregardless of opinion or law.

The Old Fhart
06-06-2004, 08:11
Pencil Pusher -“Owners affect the rottweiler's temperament……………………………..I'll do what I think is right, irregardless of opinion or law.”
Certainly proves the point that irresponsible, ill behaved owners produce irresponsible, ill behaved dogs. I am a dog owner (and have owned a rottweiler) but would never consider taking my dog on the trail. I have met some well behaved dogs (and owners) on the trail, but you can decide how the above would be viewed if you met them.

Jaybird
06-06-2004, 12:21
...are we back to the DOGS topic again???????????????????

smokymtnsteve
06-06-2004, 12:32
. I'll do what I think is right, irregardless of opinion or law.


that would make you a criminal. you should be reported and arrested for not obeying the LAW. ;)

Pencil Pusher
06-06-2004, 12:45
Certainly proves the point that irresponsible, ill behaved owners produce irresponsible, ill behaved dogs. I am a dog owner (and have owned a rottweiler) but would never consider taking my dog on the trail. I have met some well behaved dogs (and owners) on the trail, but you can decide how the above would be viewed if you met them.What's the point in arguing? None. You have your views, I have mine. 'Dogs' just as well may be 'kids' because we all have different views on how they should be raised and treated. There are too many variables in both dog, owner, and environment.
Thanks for pointing that out Steve:p

smokymtnsteve
06-06-2004, 12:52
THE WORDS OF EDWARD ABBEY

"The more corrupt a society, the more numerous its laws."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY

Photofanatic
06-06-2004, 13:37
I feel that we american citizens have the freedom and right to make responsible decisions regarding our families and pets. As long as we are not harming anyone else and obeying the laws or ordinances of the area we are hiking in then nobody has the right to infringe on that freedom. I personally don't have the time or inclination to judge or control the decision of others.

Due to unforseen circumstances my nobo thru-hike for this year has become a bust so I am section hiking meanwhile considering a sobo thru-hike. I am getting back on the trail tomorrow with my dog and my daughter. If I find it is too much for either one of them to handle I am prepared to bring one or both home. That is just part of being a responsible individual.

As for leashing my dog, I wouldn't consider taking her off leash for a second. I like her too well to risk a snakebite or injury because she would nose around anything that smells new and interesting. My dog is a service dog who works on our local search and rescue team. That doesn't mean she has been exposed to everything on every trail. Just because I am able to predict her behavior working here doesn't mean she would work consistently outside of her territory. Anyone who expects their dog to be consistent on new turf may be setting themselves and their dog up for more than what they really want to handle. I am prepared to carry the weight of my dog (120 lbs) whatever miles necessary if she needs more first aid than I am carrying. Are you?

smokymtnsteve
06-06-2004, 13:44
No..I am not willing to carry your dog anywhere.

Ramble~On
06-06-2004, 17:04
New thread...same arguement...
Read the thread..."WHY DOGS ATTACK HIKERS"
There will always be dogs on the trail. Some dogs will be nomads from local towns who are simply taking a walk, without their owner's consent.
Other dogs will be with their owner's because their owner's feel that their dogs will protect them from ????? whatever...In this instance these dogs are basically along as weapons.
Other dogs will be totally cool and mellow, because their owners are totally cool and mellow.
The only problem that I have with dogs on the trail is that every encounter with a dog is an unknown...is it friendly or is it gonna try and bite me.
I've said enough in the last thread about dogs on the AT.
Isn't the AT " A FOOTPATH FOR THOSE WHO SEEK FELLOWSHIP WITH THE WILDERNESS". Does the "footpath" part mean hiking trail ? Aren't hiking trails for hikers?...If you can take your dog along doesn't that mean I can take my horse ?

SunnyWalker
06-20-2009, 01:59
I like dogs pretty much. But in all my hiking on the AT and other trails most of the time my experience with dogs was very negative. They tried to bite me (non-provoked), barked alot, tried to sniff and lik me, tried to jump up on me, etc. When I have pushed them away with hiking stick (nicely, I didn't hit them) owners would react with verbal abuse. On the AT section hike I did three times the same owner had to pull their dog off of me. The third time, I told the owner that was going to be the last time. They leashed it after that.

Jaybird
06-21-2009, 08:03
I like dogs pretty much. But in all my hiking on the AT and other trails most of the time my experience with dogs was very negative. They tried to bite me (non-provoked), barked alot, tried to sniff and lik me, tried to jump up on me, etc. When I have pushed them away with hiking stick (nicely, I didn't hit them) owners would react with verbal abuse. On the AT section hike I did three times the same owner had to pull their dog off of me. The third time, I told the owner that was going to be the last time. They leashed it after that.


I LIKE dogs too...they are very TASTY! hehehehehe:D

on the serious side...Just like AMEN said...I dont have anything personally against the dogs...but they seem to always be ready to bite me @ the end of a long hiking day...& i dont need that s#@%^t!

Leave ROVER @ home!

mister krabs
06-21-2009, 08:32
No, I will not leave my dog at home, and who the heck are you to tell me that I should? well, you can tell me what to do all day long and I'll be sure and let you know when I care what you think. It would not advisable to withold respiration in anticipation of that moment.

I'll bring my dog and I'll keep it leashed, not because I care what you think, but because I don't want to lose my dog.

vamelungeon
06-21-2009, 08:49
I love dogs, I have a dog but dogs are like children- not everyone finds your dog as cute/attractive/smart/lovable as you do. I don't want your dog in my stuff or in my face, and I would rather you'd leave your dog at home if you don't understand that.

As far as the comment about pit bulls and Rotts being "aggressive" the poster obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. I've owned pit bulls and they are quite the opposite, some of the least aggressive dogs I've had.

Nean
06-21-2009, 12:36
The best way to avoid dogs on the trail is to stay off the trail!:-? :) Now maybe my experience has been different but I've had more negative experiences w/ people than dogs, and so few that together you could count them on one hand. :eek: I guess I haven't spent as much time on the trail as most folks here though. :o

Wise Old Owl
06-21-2009, 13:10
Oh wow, where do we start? Keep it positive! Because we are on the internet and not around a campfire with friends the posts take on a whole new life on their own.

I take great pride in working with dogs rescued from the pound and working with them to make them great dogs to have around the house. Months of training and working them, around the area and have them to be great with children and adults. I also teach them that some dogs do not want to be run up too.

I cannot put on my tech pants, or hiking boots with my dogs going banana’s! They love the hike, they love the walk, they love the attention, and seeing other dogs on the trail. They don’t care if its 2 miles or 15 they love it. If they don’t, they just stop and lay down. Years ago I learned the hard way with Disney, she barely moved for three days after doing the Pinnacle and the Pulpit on the AT, I kept thinking it was the PA rocks and it turned out to be advanced arthritis.

Yes there is a silent minority of dog hater’s on the trail, My dad & I got a small dose of this when a very older woman yelled at us for bringing a Jack Russell on the AT some years ago, I reviewed the Wilmington Trail Club’s Policies and cancelled our membership because of the incident. We did nothing wrong and the dog was wonderful and we can only guess as to what her problem was. Today I hike my own hike in solitude, I don’t need the clubs anymore.

My new thing here at WB is I am burned out on the Leash issue, I have a radio leash and I have Gentle Leader, The leash issue here has been done to death. Apparently we can’t have a thread without someone having to bring it up, get over it.

Some folks feel dogs are not up to the task of a thru hike, yet loads of working dogs work thousands of miles in dog sledding, running all the way. Misinformation and just not thinking it thru, it’s like saying your teenager doesn’t belong on the AT because he’s not up to the task, let’s leave him at home playing on the latest video game.

I just wish dog owners would clean up the doggie doo. Yep I wish hikers would hide their TP under a rock and bury their waste too. I even carry water soluble TP. Hey why don’t horse owners carry a shovel when on other trails? My dog doesn't even cr*p on the trail, he goes off into the bushes and comes right back.

I'm sorry. You can't be considerate enough to bring your dog, and if you truly love him or her, you can think about it. To those who say, "I can't be apart from my dog that long," I sympathize, but you should realize you're much like so many others of us who had to weigh our separation from loved ones - human, canine or otherwise - and our desire for the trail. You can do both.

Take your dog with you. For his or her sake. There are sections you won’t be able to go together and hitchhiking is impossible. The planning will be more complicated. Be mindful of others and enjoy, keep it positive! Work them up to it, discover the limitations, discover the dogs needs. Stay out of the shelters, apparently wet dogs are worse than shelter mice, and snakes.

WOO

Amen - did you notice you dug an old thread from 2003/2004 up from the bottom? It's so old it's still has all the unmoderated posts in it.

Tinker
06-21-2009, 14:19
I love dogs on the trail, leashed. Just keep them out of my camp and out of shelters (hint: bring a tent, tarp, or hammock) and we'll all get along (unless some other canine takes a dislike to yours). I LOVE dogs - it's some of the owners I can do without. :)

SassyWindsor
06-21-2009, 14:45
1. The most miserable looking creature I've ever seen on a trail was a dog that had been hiking many miles for days.

2. The "Lost Dog" posters at the trail heads are eye pollution, but probably make good fire starter.

3. The majority of dogs are being brought out by day hikers. (No backpacks on owners)

4. If I brought my dog I'd not leash it either, can't walk with one pulling on me.
But, not to worry, I'll not be bringing mine.

5. The number of creatures I've witnessed using the bathroom on the trail is currently, in a close contest, held by the canine.

Phreak
06-21-2009, 16:40
4. If I brought my dog I'd not leash it either, can't walk with one pulling on me.
But, not to worry, I'll not be bringing mine.
Sounds like a good idea. If you can't train your dog to walk properly on a leash, it shouldn't be on a hiking trail.

Wise Old Owl
06-21-2009, 19:00
Sounds like a good idea. If you can't train your dog to walk properly on a leash, it shouldn't be on a hiking trail.


Ouch! Folks, please review this thread, click on the movie....

http://www.buygentleleader.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/gentleleader/description


Remember Keep it positive. And Phreak you have my respect, this is relatively new. And its huge as a $20 solution to an overall problem when walking, or hiking a dog.

prain4u
06-22-2009, 02:16
I have owned dogs for most of my 47 years of life. I like dogs. (Currently own a 100 lb. Chocolate Lab). However, I believe that we might be wise to take note of the following quote from THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL CONSERVANCY:



"Dogs are NOT ALLOWED in three areas along the Trail:


Baxter State Park, Maine
Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina

Leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail, including:


Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
Maryland (entire state)
Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service"


That means that dogs are outright prohibited--or legally required to be on a leash--for approximately half of the trail. If you, and your dog, can't abide by these rules--it is probably best for the dog to stay home.

Nean
06-22-2009, 19:04
Ouch! Folks, please review this thread, click on the movie....

http://www.buygentleleader.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/gentleleader/description


Remember Keep it positive. And Phreak you have my respect, this is relatively new. And its huge as a $20 solution to an overall problem when walking, or hiking a dog.

Thanks for the link. I'm happily stuck with my friends pup and shes a handful!:p I think she will love the trail. My dog(s) will have to stay home. They are good trail dogs. One is plenty though. Good advice here educating those of us who ARE hiking w/ dogs. Many mahalos. :sun
I would point out that all poop of the human kind should always be catholed and never bury your paper or hide it.:( Thats called litter :eek: and you should pack it out.:)

SunnyWalker
06-27-2009, 01:27
Yeah, I hate dogs, hate 'em to death! Why??!?!?!? When they are on the trail they jump on me and plant their muddy paws on my clothes, they lik me (What has that tongue been liking?), they bark and bite me and etc., They come in my tent and walk on my bivi, they upset my cooking stove and go to the bathroom right near us all. They stink and have fleas. After I ahve teid to be nice and have petted many dogs that were rubbing up on my leg (didn't want them too but didno't want to offend the owner) they left behind their stink and dog slobber. So I am a dog-hater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Watch out ev r one . . . Watch out dawgs!!! I'm a dawwwwg hater!!!!!! (Smile :-)

sorehoof
10-05-2009, 01:24
I am a Trail Maintainer in one of the New England states and want to describe an incident I had with an unleashed dog.
I was doing hard work in the rain improving a popular camp site. I was tired and wet. As I was working, two day hikers showed up with two medium sized dogs. The hikers and dogs stayed around a nearby shelter. One of the two dogs was not on a leash.
When I was done working , I put on my pack and gathered my long handled tools. I started walking toward the shelter.
When the unleashed dog saw me, it charged me. It's ears were back and it was showing a mouthfull of teeth - growling. When I saw the teeth and dog's actions, I screamed at the owner to leash the dog. The owner looked confused and did nothing. When the dog got closer I yelled to the owner that if the dog bites me I will kill it. Only then did the owner get control of the dog and leash it. With both dogs on leashes I approached the shelter. When I walked near the dog that went after me, it tried to go after me again - thank god it was on a leash.
When The dog went after me , I was terrified. I have been charged before while doing trail work. When I was a child , I was bitten on more than one occasion. I still have a scar on my face from a dog attack.
On one occasion ,I was walking with a friend in a rual area. We passed a house that had a dog sitting in the yard looking at us. My friend was scared of dogs. Maybe the dog sensed it. The dog attacked my friend and started to bite him. His arms and hands were lacerated - bloody mess. His screams alerted the dog's owners . When they saw what was happening, I think they could'nt believe that a member of their family - dog - could do such a thing. They got the dog off him and brought him to the emergency room.
My recent experience with the dog at the shelter may have been caused by the image of me with tools which may have looked as a threat to the dog. It was not the dog's fault - it was acting on instinct. It was the owners fault. If there was any question how the dog could respond to different conditions it should be on a leash! A dog may be good with people at home in familiar surroundings but when exposed to wilderness conditions it could be unpredictable.
As for saying that I would kill the dog , it was not a good choice of words. I like dogs and have owned them in the past. The best was a German Shepard. However; I will defend my self if the dog is on my leg, hand or neck. After this experience, I carry dog repellant.
Another concern that I have, is that while operating a chainsaw I could be jumped from behind by a dog or startled in some way which could result in me being serously injured by the saw.
Every time I encountered an unleashed dog, it belonged to a day hiker or townies out for a weekend of adventure. I find that most of these hikers are clueless about trail etiquette and are out of their element. They think that being in the woods allows them to do anything . We call them turons. Hiking trails are public places. One should not expect not to encounter another hiker and that hikers may like dogs running up to them or showing aggression.
Personally, I would like to have laws requiring dogs to be leashed. I plan to press this issue with the local Trail's Committee. It's unfortunate that the irresponsible actions of some people could result in more rules and regulations.
This incident really up setme, which is why I posted this comment. Normally, I do not post experiences or opinions. If I have offended some dog owners - too bad. Is it worth having Poochie bite someone and face legal action?

The Mechanical Man
10-05-2009, 02:15
I have owned dogs for most of my 47 years of life. I like dogs. (Currently own a 100 lb. Chocolate Lab). However, I believe that we might be wise to take note of the following quote from THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL CONSERVANCY:



"Dogs are NOT ALLOWED in three areas along the Trail:


Baxter State Park, Maine
Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina
Leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail, including:


Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
Maryland (entire state)
Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service"

That means that dogs are outright prohibited--or legally required to be on a leash--for approximately half of the trail. If you, and your dog, can't abide by these rules--it is probably best for the dog to stay home.


Dogs are prohibited on half the trail? WHAT??



You might be wise if you take note that, my dogs have hiked 1,320 miles of the AT with me and my wife since 1984, the fact that my dogs over the years have put in more volunteer time maintaining the AT and helping hikers, and probably has done more cooridor boundry work, than most other human volunteers are even willing to do.

Does my dog, have more volunteer hours than you?


I was wondering if you know exactly what 500 miles of AT land administered by the National Park Service that leashes are required on, and how it is actually enforced by the NPS?

Deb
10-05-2009, 10:45
A dog attack is always traumatic and for someone my size can feel like an attack on my life.

Here is a thread on another website. Please read post #86 by Kerry; it is very upsetting. The aftermath of this attack will always be there for her.

http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=11470&page=5

SassyWindsor
10-05-2009, 14:00
Threads & Posts about Dogs on hiking trails serve as well as intergalactic transmissions in search for intelligent life forms.

Even if someone receives the message you'd never know it.

CowHead
10-06-2009, 06:50
I don''t mind dogs on the trail. I see alot of female hiker's used them and if it gives them comfort than fine. Most long distance hiking dogs that I seen look well behave. It's the weekend warriors dogs that seem to be more out of control.

Lone Wolf
10-06-2009, 06:52
Most long distance hiking dogs that I seen look well behave. It's the weekend warriors dogs that seem to be more out of control.

that's because the LD dogs are too tired and miserable to bark and bite

Jonnycat
10-06-2009, 14:08
http://i37.tinypic.com/2zfl7v8.jpg

Lostone
10-06-2009, 15:20
A leash of reasonable length would be fantastic. One of those 50 foot retractable jobs just doesn't cut it.

Son and I were BP the Shawnee state forest when a young lady with a poorly behaved Golden retriever tangled us up running around us. It was embarressing to say the least. Thank god I had my lock blade handy to cut our way out of the mess.

She was mad, you should have seen that dog take off. Kinda reminded me of that irish setter in the Movie Funny Farm.

6-9 foot of leash is plenty.

Graywolf
10-06-2009, 16:06
Why are teenagers allowed to run around and terrorize the nieghborhood, but dogs go to obeident school???:-?

My 2 cents, When I am at home thinkig about a hike or on a hike I hope I don't run into a dog for reasons alreay stated by other posters, but then when do come across a dog I always find it welcome. On a recent section hike, on my first day on the trails at Stover creek I came acroos a hiker with a dog and at first I was alarmed, but then the dig really settled to me I was enjoying it being around. The next day at Hawk Mountain shelter, I saw the same dog and this time it remembered me and it looked really happy to see me. It walked with me down to the creek to get water and followed me on a short exploritory walk after I sat up my things. I was really begining to enjoy having the dog around, and some of my veiws of having dogs on the trail changed.

One thing is the dog is a family member and you would like to share your life with your dog, and that includes going on overnighters or thru hikes. I read "Walk Across America" by Peter Jennings and really began to adore his malamute. My problem with dogs is not the dogs themselves but the actions of the owners, mostly weekend warriors/dayhikers. Be responsible with your dog. If you have a dog that is tempermental and unpredectible then keep it on a leash. It really involves proper trail ettiquet.

Jack Tarlin
10-06-2009, 16:21
Sorehoof:

Just read your post above.

No apology is necessary.

If you were attacked for no reason by an unleashed dog and the owner stood by and did nothing, then you had every right to defend yourself in any way possible, including killing the animal in question.

An untrained, unleashed dog that attacks me while the owner stands by and lets it happen has every chance of becoming a profoundly dead dog, and I don't feel that I need to explain or rationalize the statement, and neither does anyone else.

Bad owners need to get a leash, get a lawyer, or get ready to visit the pet cemetary.

This sort of thing happens all too often on the Trail, and regrettably, in some cases, there's only way for the owner to get the message.

One's right to hike while enjoying the company of one's pet ends when the pet's teeth are in my leg.

Outdoorz
10-18-2009, 22:53
I have read half of the posts here and gave up on the rest.. I will be hiking thru in the spring, NOBO, I will have my Husky with me. She behaves better than what seems a lot of people on here do. I will keep to myself and She will do the same. Niki handles her pack and loves feeling like she is accomplishing a task. If this is a problem for anyone, then don't wave or say hi.

It is ridiculous that people want to experience the outdoors, the wilderness, mother nature and so on, but get into such a fit because someone might bring a dog.

To some of the posters who have been attacked, I hope the sight of a dog doesn't scare you, but thats all you will have to worry about with her. I still have scars from dog attacks, my dad lost part of his ear from one, but i still love them and he has a bunch of dogs too.

Bottom line for me is this; the trash, the disruption of wilderness, the yelling and immaturity, shown by PEOPLE most of the places I have been, will always outweigh what any dog I have ever hiked or camped with has done to the enviornment or the enjoyment of people that I have met along the way.

Kayakado
10-19-2009, 12:25
I used to have a dog that was well behaved and I took on long day hikes. I mean very well-behaved - you said stop and she stopped dead in her tracks immediately and came to the down position. Give her the stay command and she'd stay for days until relaesed to move. Most of our long walks were on private lands of people I knew and we were the only people and dogs out there.

My most memorable event was letting her off the leash to run and she picked up a well-racked buck in the corn field and started to chase it. By the time I had realized what was going on and called her back, she and the buck were on the other side of the corn field entering a copse of trees. I called her back (luckily I didn't give her the stop command) She turned and came back immediately, what i hadn't realized was the buck turned and came back too. He followed her back to within 15 feet of us. He finally decided and a dog and two large humans may not have been as easy target as one lone dog. We stood there waving our arms and shouting and the dog joined in and barked. I suspect he would have gored her, if he could have caught her alone. The only reason I would let her off the leash is that I knew I was in complete control but that one lone buck proved there were still hazards even to a dog of her training.

Mags
10-19-2009, 13:15
Dogs are prohibited on half the trail? WHAT??


Dogs are require LEASHED on ~half-the trail. Not prohibited.

If you choose to ignore the laws, that's your decision.



Does my dog, have more volunteer hours than you?

I am not sure what this statement has to do with ignoring or not agreeing with leash laws?

Also, a funny statement since I helped to construct new trail this past Saturday. :)




I was wondering if you know exactly what 500 miles of AT land administered by the National Park Service that leashes are required on, and how it is actually enforced by the NPS?

The quote was from the Appalachian Trails Conservancy's dog page. The people who administer the trail. If you do not care the policies and/or need clarification, I suggest you should contact them. As for enforcement...it is against the law to litter..but not enforced. Yet, may of us do not litter. If you choose to ignore a law on NPS lands because it can't be enforced..well, there you go.


Here's the page:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805495/k.9C34/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm


Thanks.

Rockhound
10-19-2009, 13:45
I feel if all these people who say dogs should not be allowed on the trail are the same people that will have issues with everything else. Get over yourselves and just hike. Save you judgments and condemnations for another time (never) There are no bad dogs just bad owners.

Slo-go'en
10-19-2009, 14:02
I have read half of the posts here and gave up on the rest.. I will be hiking thru in the spring, NOBO, I will have my Husky with me.

Thats all well and good, and you'll not be the only one to start out with a dog. Just keep in mind that very, very few dogs make it the whole way. In fact, few make it even half way.

Your chances of completing a thru hike with a dog are much less then without one. Be sure to have a plan in place to get your dog home and looked after when the time comes that it has to get off the trail - that time is sure to come eventually. If you don't have a plan to do that, your hike will be over when the dog's is.

Slo-go'en
10-19-2009, 14:09
There are no bad dogs just bad owners.

Bad owner = bad dog and that is a problem no matter how you look at it.

Rain Man
10-19-2009, 15:15
My most memorable event was letting her off the leash to run and she picked up a well-racked buck in the corn field and started to chase it. By the time I had realized what was going on ... she and the buck were on the other side of the corn field entering a copse of trees. ... The only reason I would let her off the leash is that I knew I was in complete control ....

Having "complete control" is not at all the same as losing control (as you did) and then (hopefully) being able to re-gain control. Not in my book. You lost control and as you yourself say, didn't even realize what was going on. Plainly, that's not "complete control." It's one or the other.

Rain Man

.

sheepdog
10-19-2009, 15:26
Bad owner = bad dog and that is a problem no matter how you look at it.
not true, my dog is evil

jamie-Lonewolf
05-13-2010, 13:22
I have found their are 2 distinct type of dog owners on the trail.... A - Belong to avid outdoors type people. They bring their dogs along with them, always, they are well conditioned to humans with backpacks strapped to their backs and are usually as tired as their masters after a long days hike and all they want is food and sleep. B - Belong to people who rarely visit a trail at all, bark and growl at anything that looks strange and are as hyper as a 4 year old child who has consumed way to much candy. I am cool with dogs on the trail
as long as they are behaved and not aggressive towards hikers/backpackers. I have found that the owners personality usually matches that of the dog - or is that visa versa, whos to say? But in general i'm ok with it.

Jamie

Jack Tarlin
05-13-2010, 17:42
I also think there are 2 kinds of dog owners on the Trail.

There are those who have properly raised their pets; have trained them to obey voice commands; have made sure they behave appropriately in social situations, i.e. with other dogs and especially, with other human beings; have taken the time to hike extensively with their pets before attempting a long hike; and, most of all, realize the ammount of time and attention they really need to commit to their dogs on a long hike, and are also constantly aware of how their pet's presence may impact other people that they encounter on the Trail, in towns, and elsewhere, and who make sure that their dog's presence and behavior never negatively impacts anyone else's hike.

And now that we're done thanking these great folks, we can also take a moment to remember the 98% of other dog owners on the Trail every year.

Somehow, these guys are more memorable.

Imagine that.

kayak karl
05-13-2010, 18:16
I also think there are 2 kinds of dog owners on the Trail.

There are those who have properly raised their pets; have trained them to obey voice commands; have made sure they behave appropriately in social situations, i.e. with other dogs and especially, with other human beings; have taken the time to hike extensively with their pets before attempting a long hike; and, most of all, realize the ammount of time and attention they really need to commit to their dogs on a long hike, and are also constantly aware of how their pet's presence may impact other people that they encounter on the Trail, in towns, and elsewhere, and who make sure that their dog's presence and behavior never negatively impacts anyone else's hike.

And now that we're done thanking these great folks, we can also take a moment to remember the 98% of other dog owners on the Trail every year.

Somehow, these guys are more memorable.

Imagine that.
if you only 1 in 50 dogs were trained, you should be able to name them:) i'll start "DELTA"

10-K
05-13-2010, 20:13
So how do we feel about dogs talking on cell phones?

The Weasel
05-13-2010, 21:40
So how do we feel about dogs talking on cell phones?

Fine, but not about religion if they're carrying a gun.

TW