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warren doyle
09-13-2007, 19:53
Information concerning this future pilgrimage is now up on my website.

First preparation period is May 13-16, 2008 (right before Trail Days).

warren doyle
03-19-2008, 11:14
If you are interested in the 2010 AT Circle Expedition, the first preparation session is May 13-16 right before Damascus Trail Days.
More info at the website below.

Happy trails!
Warren

warren doyle
04-21-2008, 10:06
We're going to have from 20-25 Expedition hopefuls here May 13-16 for the first preparation session of the 2010 AT Circle Expedition.
Folks are coming from as far north as Maine/Michigan/Canada, as far south as Florida, and as far west as Texas.
Average age - 52
75% female 25% male
I'm excited about a new group forming.

For anyone else interested, info is on my website below.

warren doyle
05-12-2008, 19:59
20 folks from 13 states and Canada are presently arriving at Lees-McRae College for the start of the first prep session for the 2010 AT Circle Expedition tomorrow. About twelve are staying in our on-campus house and about five are tenting in our yard.

Exciting time being on the threshold of a dream.....

SGT Rock
05-12-2008, 20:07
What is your maximum size?

Cookerhiker
05-12-2008, 20:29
...Exciting time being on the threshold of a dream.....

Attribution please: Moody Blues, 1969 Decca Records - during the time of their most prolific creativity.

warren doyle
05-12-2008, 20:40
What is your maximum size?

I'd rather not answer such a personal question in a public forum.

SGT Rock
05-12-2008, 20:50
LOL, sorry. I meant how many people do you limit the circle too.

rickb
05-12-2008, 20:57
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters...."

Opening quote: www.warrendoyle.com

Be proud of who you are!

warren doyle
05-12-2008, 21:04
There are no limits.

Whoever decides after a 20-day preparation period, over a 2-year period, that they want to commit to the expedition's mission/task, along with its three expectations, is eligible to join the circle.

SGT Rock
05-12-2008, 21:08
Thanks Warren. I just assumed that you had some sort of optimal size limit.

Since we are at it, what was your biggest Circle size?

warren doyle
05-12-2008, 21:58
Thanks Warren. I just assumed that you had some sort of optimal size limit.

Since we are at it, what was your biggest Circle size?

The first expedition (1975 - 109 days) had nineteen people in it, mostly college students from the University of Connecticut. The circle was unbroken - we all made it.

Later, several members of this group formed the nucleus of the first group to walk both the PCT (1977) and the CDT (1984-I believe).

KnowledgeEngine
05-13-2008, 03:19
Hmm...support vehicle?? On the AT?

Well I suppose it is good you are providing a service doing something you love. The whole 75% women 25% men so far sounds like advertising though :)

warren doyle
05-13-2008, 06:52
Hmm...support vehicle?? On the AT?

Well I suppose it is good you are providing a service doing something you love. The whole 75% women 25% men so far sounds like advertising though :)

There are road crossings along the AT. Through proper planning, discipline and about ten days of endurance hiking (including some night hiking), a person can day hike the entire trail.

This is not a service, it is a folk happening.

The present gender ratio for:

1) the 2010 AT Circle Expedition (hopefuls) 21 women 19 men

2) the Appalachian Trail Institute (May 19-22) 6 women 1 man

The above information is not advertising. They are just facts.

Gray Blazer
05-13-2008, 07:09
This is not a service, it is a folk happening.



Kinda like an AT Hootenanny. Have fun.

jersey joe
05-13-2008, 08:28
I would make sense to me that more women would seek a group to hike with than men, thus the ratios.

Jack Tarlin
05-13-2008, 10:45
This has been asked (and ignored) before.

What, pray tell, is a "folk happening?"

weary
05-13-2008, 11:04
This has been asked (and ignored) before.

What, pray tell, is a "folk happening?"
I don't pretend to know. But I would guess we can take hints from the expressions, "folk songs" and "folk music." Do you suppose it might just be folks getting together and committing themselves to doing simple, but unusual, basic things together, like walking a long distance trail for months on end?

Weary

Jack Tarlin
05-13-2008, 12:18
I don't "suppose" anything, Weary.

I'm not sure what the phrase is supposed to mean......which is why I asked the question.

warren doyle
05-14-2008, 03:44
I don't pretend to know. But I would guess we can take hints from the expressions, "folk songs" and "folk music." Do you suppose it might just be folks getting together and committing themselves to doing simple, but unusual, basic things together, like walking a long distance trail for months on end?

Weary

Pretty close Weary.

The expedition is a labor of love that is non-commercial and non-institutional.
We had a wonderful, productive first day of prep for 20 Expedition hopefuls here at Lees-McRae College yesterday. We have 17 of them staying in our home/yard tonight.
Leaving at 5:30am to do two day hikes from Watauga Lake into Damascus.
Should be interesting.

Cookerhiker
05-14-2008, 16:47
"Folk happening" "Labor of Love " - I thought it was a hike.:-?

STEVEM
05-14-2008, 16:55
I don't pretend to know. But I would guess we can take hints from the expressions, "folk songs" and "folk music." Do you suppose it might just be folks getting together and committing themselves to doing simple, but unusual, basic things together, like walking a long distance trail for months on end?

Weary

Don't Drink the Kool-Aid!!!!

weary
05-14-2008, 17:33
Come on guys. It's just a walk in the woods for four months, by a group of strangers getting together to train in advance and to share expenses of a van to make the walk in some ways a little easier.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I can certainly understand why it would be for some people. Better this way, than no way. Whoever goes will almost certainly find it a wonderful experience with some wonderful people.

I have zero experience with hiking with Warren. But by happenstance (well I delivered the lobsters) a couple of times I've had dinners with groups of alumni of a Warren walk at a hostel in East Andover in Maine. They were all great people and all enthusiastic about their trail adventures.

Frankly, I'd love to go along on the new "circle", but I currently have difficulty doing three-mile day hikes. And am pessimistic about doing 25 mile day hikes, even with two years to train.

Weary

Alligator
05-14-2008, 17:36
Come on guys. It's just a walk in the woods for four months, by a group of strangers getting together to train in advance and to share expenses of a van to make the walk in some ways a little easier.
...Don't try to folking kid me it's an expedition.

sofaking
05-14-2008, 17:38
are they roped together, single file, so nobody goes unaccounted for? maybe everybody holds hands while warren stands in as crossing guard at trail junctions and road crossings. i hope so, remember, safety first!

SawnieRobertson
05-14-2008, 18:03
There's more than "just" one way to do the trail. The trade off for having most days slacked is the 25-mile/day thing . (I do not know how this is handled under winter conditions when it's really unwise to be out without all gear.) I sat with a young woman who had done Warren's Circle trek, asking questions, at a Gathering. She could not say enough good things about the experience. I had kinda expected her answers to be otherwise, but she was still under the spell of The Circle. It must be good.--Kinnickinic

weary
05-14-2008, 18:34
There's more than "just" one way to do the trail. The trade off for having most days slacked is the 25-mile/day thing . (I do not know how this is handled under winter conditions when it's really unwise to be out without all gear.) I sat with a young woman who had done Warren's Circle trek, asking questions, at a Gathering. She could not say enough good things about the experience. I had kinda expected her answers to be otherwise, but she was still under the spell of The Circle. It must be good.--Kinnickinic
Of course it is good. It's been going on for years. We are a free country and participating in a reasonably free forum. I don't remember a critical comment on White Blaze from anyone who has participated. Think why that may be. Do you suppose that most may have enjoyed the adventure?

Weary

weary
05-14-2008, 18:36
Don't try to folking kid me it's an expedition.
Whatever, if anything, that silly comment may be suggesting.

weary
05-14-2008, 18:38
There's more than "just" one way to do the trail. The trade off for having most days slacked is the 25-mile/day thing . (I do not know how this is handled under winter conditions when it's really unwise to be out without all gear.) I sat with a young woman who had done Warren's Circle trek, asking questions, at a Gathering. She could not say enough good things about the experience. I had kinda expected her answers to be otherwise, but she was still under the spell of The Circle. It must be good.--Kinnickinic
Think, maybe, that these have never been "winter conditions" "expeditions."

Jack Tarlin
05-14-2008, 18:50
Weary:

You may not remember a critical comment here at Whiteblaze, but keep in mind not every former thru-hiker spends time here....or on the Internet at all.

I have no doubt that there are folks that have taken part in these "expeditions" who view them as positive experiences. I know this is true because I have met and spoken with people who feel this way.

On the other hand, there are some (and I've met and spoken with them) who feel otherwise.

The fact that Weary hasn't seen any former "expedition" participant make a critical comment here at Whiteblaze signifies very little. The vast majority of thru-hikers, either those who hiked under their own power (and on their own agenda/schedule) or those who did not.....the vast majority of thru-hikers don't post here, Weary. The fact that you've never seen any "expedition" member comment here really means nothing.

I assure you they've commented elsewhere......and frequently.

rickb
05-14-2008, 18:59
Jack,

Have you ever spoken to an Expedition Member(s) who spoke highly of their trip? Is yes, how many?

This is not a rhetorical question.

One think that is remarkable (and incontrovertible) about Warren's trips is the completion rate. Its extraordinarily high, and not at all a subjective metric, like 3rd or 4th hand recounting by a person with a very different world view.

Rick B

SawnieRobertson
05-14-2008, 19:01
Of course it is good. It's been going on for years. We are a free country and participating in a reasonably free forum. I don't remember a critical comment on White Blaze from anyone who has participated. Think why that may be. Do you suppose that most may have enjoyed the adventure?

Weary

My conversation with her was in the time context of so much bickering about being "pure," etc., which was especially fostered by someone for whom such stuff was a make-or-break-deal, and I was comparatively new to the scene.
Sorry if my account of the exchange offended you,--Kinnickinic

Slimer
05-14-2008, 19:14
Well folks, this informative thread started out just fine, but is now on its way to hell.
It's sad that Warrens threads are usually hijacked and eventually ruined.
I've said my piece.......and now I'm done.

Skidsteer
05-14-2008, 19:23
Well folks, this informative thread started out just fine, but is now on its way to hell.
It's sad that Warrens threads are usually hijacked and eventually ruined.
I've said my piece.......and now I'm done.

Hm.

So far it's been remarkably civil, informative, and balanced all things considered.

Appalachian Tater
05-14-2008, 19:23
Well folks, this informative thread started out just fine, but is now on its way to hell.
It's sad that Warrens threads are usually hijacked and eventually ruined.
I've said my piece.......and now I'm done.There's no room for discussion? A difference of opinion ruins it? Maybe you should think about possible reasons the vast majority of people have ready criticism for him.

A-Train
05-14-2008, 19:42
I would imagine the expeditions have pretty high satisfaction and completion rates because Warren does a very good job of painting an accurate picture of what a thru-hike of the AT will be like, before they start. It's not hard to imagine that he has a pretty good idea of the experience after all the miles. I've talked to a few people who were members and they all had pretty good things to say about it.

The fact is, Warren offers an experience/"service" that is very desireable for a small population of people. It attracts people who may be physically unable to hike with 30-40 lbs on their backs, or people who may not want to rough it, like a traditional backpacker would.

I met their group in 05' in NJ when I was ridgerunning, near Blue Mtn Lakes Rd. I walked by and they weren't very friendly. I walked over to the summer camp and set up near one of the lean-to;s and a storm looked to be blowing in. They all flocked over with their van. They seemed to be like any other sub-sample of people: some very nice and friendly, some not so much. A few of the gents shared a lean-to with me. I do remember (as a ridgerunner of course!) that a few of the gents drank sodas in front of me, didn'toffer one, and then left it on the picnic table.

I did not meet Warren then. I did watch his video at this years Gathering and it seems apparent that they don't all walk together in single file. Seems people form smaller groups and walk together.

Overall, I don't have any issues with the expedition. It's an alternative to traditional backpacking. I think they miss out on the comraderie with other thru-hikers that makes hiking the AT so special, but I'm sure there own group breeds a nice group bond.

Alligator
05-14-2008, 20:10
Whatever, if anything, that silly comment may be suggesting.It's just a folking joke Weary. You either folking get it or you don't;).

max patch
05-14-2008, 20:55
The fact is, Warren offers an experience/"service" that is very desireable for a small population of people. It attracts people who may be physically unable to hike with 30-40 lbs on their backs, or people who may not want to rough it, like a traditional backpacker would.



I used to think that when I became old and infirm that slacking might be the way to go.

Then I realized that if Bob Barker and Bill Irwin can hike the trail then mere age would not be a barrier.

saimyoji
05-14-2008, 21:46
I used to think that when I became old and infirm that slacking might be the way to go.

Then I realized that if Bob Barker and Bill Irwin can hike the trail then mere age would not be a barrier.


bob barker?

Roland
05-14-2008, 21:50
bob barker?

A 1987 thru-hiker who had MS. There's a photo of him on page 11 of this document (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00May.pdf).

Darryl G
05-14-2008, 22:35
The first expedition (1975 - 109 days) had nineteen people in it, mostly college students from the University of Connecticut. The circle was unbroken - we all made it.

Later, several members of this group formed the nucleus of the first group to walk both the PCT (1977) and the CDT (1984-I believe).

If you're referring to the CDT hike that was led by Kirk Sinclair, as I believe you are, it was 1985 not 1984. Not that it matters a lot, but as a member of that expedition I'm sure of the year.

Tin Man
05-14-2008, 22:50
bob barker?


A 1987 thru-hiker who had MS. There's a photo of him on page 11 of this document (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN00May.pdf).

Oh, for a second I thought "the hike is right" was coming on tv soon.

weary
05-14-2008, 23:09
I used to think that when I became old and infirm that slacking might be the way to go.

Then I realized that if Bob Barker and Bill Irwin can hike the trail then mere age would not be a barrier.
Thanks for the chuckle. But mere age is a barrier. I know because I live with "mere age," daily.

I still walk in the woods and hills five or six times a week. I still lead hiking trips. I still dream of thru hiking again. I still work to expand the narrow National Park Service corridor of the trail in Maine. I still cart my chain saw two and three miles occasionally to remove blowdowns on our town land trust trails.

But I also see good friends gradually passing away. Even more declining my invitations to walks. And I know that I now struggle to walk three or four miles a day without a pack. I never was a "strong" hiker, just a persevering hiker.

I'm now a persevering and slow hiker. My chances of walking one season between Georgia and Maine again are virtually nil.

Weary

Lugnut
05-14-2008, 23:17
bob barker?
Not 'the' Bob Barker. This one hiked with Multiple Sclerosis using crutches. A real inspiration.

warren doyle
05-17-2008, 07:02
Had a very productive first preparation session for the Expedition with a concluding 'reality check' at Backbone Rock Picnic Area Friday morning.

Twenty people participated with fifteen people completing both day hikes.
Three people have discontinued.

Looking forward to our next prep session - a 3-day, 63-mile backpack in northern VA and MD the first weekend in October.

My son Forest (AT00) is graduating from Warren Wilson College this morning and then it is back to Trail Days for two programs and calling the contra dance.

Another session of the Appalachian Trail Institute starts Monday.

Heater
05-17-2008, 08:17
bob barker?

Yeah. SOBO.

He "hiked on down" the trail. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing002.gif

Uhgggh... :o ... sorry 'bout that... :o

Red Hat
05-18-2008, 18:24
My son Forest (AT00) is graduating from Warren Wilson College this morning and then it is back to Trail Days for two programs and calling the contra dance.


I remember when he was graduating high school! Say hi to him for me. Maybe he'd like to head SOBO this summer.

ofthearth
05-22-2008, 09:57
Hm.

So far it's been remarkably civil, informative, and balanced all things considered.


There's no room for discussion? A difference of opinion ruins it? Maybe you should think about possible reasons the vast majority of people have ready criticism for him.


Thanks for the chuckle. But mere age is a barrier. I know because I live with "mere age," daily.

I still walk in the woods and hills five or six times a week. I still lead hiking trips. I still dream of thru hiking again. I still work to expand the narrow National Park Service corridor of the trail in Maine. I still cart my chain saw two and three miles occasionally to remove blowdowns on our town land trust trails.

But I also see good friends gradually passing away. Even more declining my invitations to walks. And I know that I now struggle to walk three or four miles a day without a pack. I never was a "strong" hiker, just a persevering hiker.

I'm now a persevering and slow hiker. My chances of walking one season between Georgia and Maine again are virtually nil.

Weary
Weary,
I've been meaning to post and tell how much I appreciate your clear and calm responses to many posts. Sorry to hear the years are taking their toll. In regards to WD; I believe he courts controversy by many of his own statements. There may be a fine line between advocating something and saying (with great flare and props I might add) this is what I do, such as climbing gates of "robber barons" to enter sections of the AT that are closed for the night and sleeping in posted/ closed areas. I would think that he would recognize that by his accomplishments people are going to think that if WD can do it then it must be okay for me to do it. After all, he is highly spoken of, has lead many "expeditions", and gotten many people thru the trail. ( A disclosure- I'm still trying). And I can only imagine the delight (of WD) in poking at Jack with the term "expedition" and then tweaking further when Jack asks for an explanation of the term. Anyway, have a good day and keep the calm posts flowing.

And as an afterthought - maybe that could/would be a fitting challange for WD; to organize an "expedition" for people such as yourself that love the trail and could use the support and organization. Just a thought.

Jack Tarlin
05-22-2008, 10:04
Good post!

Except, when I think of great "expeditions", I'm tempted to think of people like
Lewis and Clark; Morton and Stanley; Burton and Speke; Shackleton, Scott, Amundsen, Mawson; Mallory and Irvine; Ranulh Fiennes.

Among other things, these people achieved most of their reknown without meeting up with car support every few miles! :D

Some people seem to use the phrase "expedition" a little loosely. A thru-hike on the A.T., after all, is not a traverse of the Amazon basin.

OregonHiker
05-22-2008, 10:10
[quote=Jack Tarlin;628653]Good post!

Except, when I think of great "expeditions", I'm tempted to think of people like
Scott,; Mallory and Irvine;/quote]

Could'nt have been that "great" an expedition as they DIED

Jack Tarlin
05-22-2008, 10:16
Right. And people died under Columbus, Vespucci, Verranzano, Tasman, Raleigh, Magellan, Francis Drake, DeSoto, LaSalle, Balboa, etc.

And your point was......? :-?

weary
05-22-2008, 10:29
Good post!

Except, when I think of great "expeditions", I'm tempted to think of people like
Lewis and Clark; Morton and Stanley; Burton and Speke; Shackleton, Scott, Amundsen, Mawson; Mallory and Irvine; Ranulh Fiennes.

Among other things, these people achieved most of their reknown without meeting up with car support every few miles! :D

Some people seem to use the phrase "expedition" a little loosely. A thru-hike on the A.T., after all, is not a traverse of the Amazon basin.
"Expedition" as defined by Merriam-Webster:

1 a: a journey or excursion undertaken for a specific purpose b: the group of persons making such a journey
2: efficient promptness : speed
3: a sending or setting forth

Weary

sherrill
05-22-2008, 10:33
It's all how you perceive it. Some days an expedition can be simply getting back to my desk from the printer (I work in IT) :D

warren doyle
05-22-2008, 11:11
"Expedition" as defined by Merriam-Webster:

1 a: a journey or excursion undertaken for a specific purpose b: the group of persons making such a journey
2: efficient promptness : speed
3: a sending or setting forth

Weary

And the answer is (drum roll please): 1a and 1b

warren doyle
05-22-2008, 11:15
If you're referring to the CDT hike that was led by Kirk Sinclair, as I believe you are, it was 1985 not 1984. Not that it matters a lot, but as a member of that expedition I'm sure of the year.

That you for this correction Darryl and happy trails!

Frosty
05-22-2008, 11:32
I would imagine the expeditions have pretty high satisfaction and completion rates because Warren does a very good job of painting an accurate picture of what a thru-hike of the AT will be like, before they start. It's not hard to imagine that he has a pretty good idea of the experience after all the miles. I've talked to a few people who were members and they all had pretty good things to say about it. I flirted with the idea of hiking with the 2005 Expedition, though ultimately I did not, and am again considering the 2010 Expedition. From what I have seen first hand, your first sentence is absolutely correct. Warren does not only paint a good picture, he shows it with the prep hikes. I hiked with him into Trail Days. Two days, 42-odd miles. It was not easy.

Warren says his members are self selected, and the "self selection process" pretty much guarantees a mentally and physically tough group of people. His self selection process reminds me of my high school football coach. He never cut anyone from the team, even it was a large school (New Bedford Mass) and he had at least four times as many people try out as he could use. He simply made the practices harder and harder until enough people dropped out. What was left were people who really really wanted to be on the team. I think that is a good part of Warren's success. The other part is a commitment to friends, which I shan't comment on here, but your mentioning comraderie is part of it.



The fact is, Warren offers an experience/"service" that is very desireable for a small population of people. It attracts people who may be physically unable to hike with 30-40 lbs on their backs, or people who may not want to rough it, like a traditional backpacker would.I've been backpacking since 1972. I'm 6'5" tall and my hiking weight varies between 240 and 270 pounds. I can carry a heavy pack. The reason I did not do the 2005 Expedition is that (among other things) I didn't think I could physically do it that year.

When people think of slacking, they think of a nice 10-15 mile break, hiking without a backpack, staying in an inn hte night before and after. They don't think of hiking 15-25 miles after breaking camp and having to set up camp the night after. Except for the pack weight, this is a different slackpacking that what people usually think of. It is still camping every night, still setting up tents in the rain and breaking them down in the rain.

And hiking about 20 miles a day, every day. Starting from Day One. People who "do not want to rough it" as you say, do not commit to hiking that much each and every day from the get-go. And the prepaation hikes would quickly weed out such people anyway. The next prepartion hike starts at Linden and goes 63 miles in 3 hiking days. That's a load for someone who has been on the trail for months. For those who section hike and do weekend trips, anyone think this is the softer, easier way? I don't.

There is always a lot of negativity about people who don't hike the "way they should," but I think a lot of this here is either generated or fed by some who feel a personal animosity toward Warren and his political stance. As a man who enlisted in the Army in 1966 when I had a student deferrment, volunteered for Viet-Nam then volunteered for a second term, and whose career has been as an engineer for the Department of Defense, my philosophies could not be more different than Warren's. I do not personally approve of some of his actions for the simple reason that I would not have done/said those things. But I think hte same of everyone who follows that particular path to peace, and I do not find it morally wrong as some do. Diff'rent strokes for different folks (I'll leave it to Cookerhiker to attribute that for me).

I just don't see why different political philosophies have any bearing on hiking philosophies.

Anyway, I've hiked traditionally, and done some of slacking Warren-style, and Warren's way is tougher.

Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to come on the 63-mile, 3 day backpack with us.

Alligator
05-22-2008, 11:53
...
Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to come on the 63-mile, 3 day backpack with us.I don't think that day hikes of 20 miles are easy. That being said, 63 miles of backpacking over 3-days does not compare to 20 mile days day hiking. It's an apples and oranges argument. There's about a 15-30+ pound difference and the availability of additional comforts provided by van support. It's not something I care about though, there are many different ways to hike the trail. The 3 day hike does necessitate a full backpack yes?

weary
05-22-2008, 11:54
Ah, so a group of four plump sixty-ish ladies setting forth, speedily, to the hairdressers, Wal-Mart, and the Bingo Hall, according to Weary, constitutes an "expedition."

If they set forth on a bus for a package weekend to Atlantic City, I guess this would be an "extended" or "long-distance" expedition.

Thanks for clearing this up. :D
Jack:

I haven't said anything. I just quoted from my trusty Merriam Webster, which sits next to my computer for occasions like this.

Weary

Pokey2006
05-22-2008, 12:53
I don't think that day hikes of 20 miles are easy. That being said, 63 miles of backpacking over 3-days does not compare to 20 mile days day hiking. It's an apples and oranges argument. There's about a 15-30+ pound difference and the availability of additional comforts provided by van support. It's not something I care about though, there are many different ways to hike the trail. The 3 day hike does necessitate a full backpack yes?

It's not apples and oranges. Whether with a full pack or not, it's still HIKING.

Alligator
05-22-2008, 13:03
It's not apples and oranges. Whether with a full pack or not, it's still HIKING.I didn't say it wasn't hiking. It's my opinion that the effort involved is different. Having a full backpack on for a twenty mile day vs. having a daypack on over the same distance is in my view different, particularly when multiplied over three days. I know personally I could go a further distance each day dayhiking vs. having a full pack. There is no question in my mind on that point, it's simple physics (work). How about for you?

Pokey2006
05-22-2008, 13:17
Yes, the same distance is harder with a heavier pack. So what? It's kind of like the guys in high school who had to have the biggest car to make up for their other limitations. Who cares how heavy the pack is or how hard the hike is?

Some of the hardest hikes I've ever done have been day hikes, as opposed to backpacks. On a backpack, you can always cut your day short and set up came. Can't do that on a day hike.

Still, they're both HIKING, just with varying weights in the backpack. So what? Who cares?

Alligator
05-22-2008, 14:38
OK, I had suggested that admin move this thread, as the opening post was more suited to this forum. Notice that the background is white. That will require posts to be more strictly concerned with the details of this endeavor.

Frosty
05-22-2008, 15:12
I took issue with Frosty's comparison of the three day backpacking trip to that of a three day supported hike. They are different as you point out. You admittedly state one is harder. Thanks for agreeing that it's not the same comparison.I thought you were a moderator. Sarcasm and digs aren't appropriate if you are.

Sarcasm wouldn't be necessary if you had read my post with an intent to understand what I wrote rather than looking for something to support your predetermined viewpoint.

I did not compare three dayhikes to a three day backpack. I said the next preparation hike is a three-day backpack of 63 miles. It was in response to A-Train's comment that people who cannot carry backpacks might gravitate toward this type of hike. It is much easier to hike 63 miles without a pack than with, but backpacking is part of the Expedition and a major part of preparation for it.

I said also that if you are thinking of the Expedition slacks as traditional slackpacks with a night's stay at an inn and other amenities at both ends you are mistaken. Please understand that before misquoting me again. You are a moderator, no?

This is probably a fool's errand on my part, but to summarize, a slack pack where you wake up in a tent in the woods, cook breakfast on your stove, break camp and carry your pack to a van, hike 20 miles, get your pack from the van, carry your gear into the woods, make camp and eat, sleep in your tent, and repeat day after day after day, 20 miles at a whack, is what we are talking about. Not getting picked up at a trailhead for a ride to indoor lodging.

The trade-off we are talking about are high miles, long days, every day in exchange for a lighter pack. There isn't an easier about it. What is gained by carrying a lighter pack is offset by the longer days and the lack of rest days.

This is obviously not for everyone. If you can't stand a schedule, if you need a rest day once a week, if you cannot continue to hike when sore, if you can't commit beforehand to finish and not quit because it gets hard or you get bored, then no, don't do it. If you are interested in having a lighter load while you are in the woods and still camp every night and still walk every foot of the trail, then maybe. Contact Warren if it sounds like something you might like but aren't sure.

I don't know if I will do the 2010 Expedition. Like so many things in life, the greatest benefit is also the biggest problem. The thing I like best is the schedule and the thing I like least is the schedule.

The schedule will have me hike in four months rather than the six I would likely take. I'm now self-employed and not only will I lose money while away, as any self-employed person knows I will lose clients and "momentum" as well, and be starting almost from scratch. Being away only four months would mitigate that to some degree. On the other hand, I'm 61 years old and I get sore after a long day or after multiple days of hiking. I don't know it I can handle hiking 18-20 miles a day, every day, without a bunch of rest days, both planned and unplanned. A-Train (I think it was him) said that any group is a microcosm of society, good and bad. This is true, but so far, I have found almost all the prospective members of the 2010 Expedition to be pleasant and friendly people, and a joy to hike with. If there is a PITA, I'm afraid it might be me.

There is a lot of criticism floating around based on a lack of knowledge and rancor. I can't do anything about the latter, but I wanted to try to give a look at both sides from someone who has been backpacking a lot, and who has at least a rudimentary knowledge of how the Expeditions work. Sometimes it is helpful to be familiar with both sides of something to fully understand it. Kind of a walk a mile in my shoes kind of thing. Before you abuse, criticize and accuse. (Cookerhiker? Attribution here?)

Marta
05-22-2008, 15:21
Like so many things in life, the greatest benefit is also the biggest problem. The thing I like best is the schedule and the thing I like least is the schedule.

That's really well put, Frosty.

A lot of this "discussion" in which everyone else's hike is dissed, except for whoever is writing, reminds me of a Russian saying:

Better my cow should die than my neighbor should have two.

A long hike is such a complicated mix of physical, financial, emotional, and mental challenges that it seems ridiculous to try to judge others' hikes. They hike it; they have to live with whatever decisions they make to complete it, or not complete it. None of my business.

Alligator
05-22-2008, 15:43
The relevant references to your introduction of the prep hike are quoted below.

...
And hiking about 20 miles a day, every day. Starting from Day One. People who "do not want to rough it" as you say, do not commit to hiking that much each and every day from the get-go. And the prepaation hikes would quickly weed out such people anyway. The next prepartion hike starts at Linden and goes 63 miles in 3 hiking days. That's a load for someone who has been on the trail for months. For those who section hike and do weekend trips, anyone think this is the softer, easier way? I don't.

....

Anyway, I've hiked traditionally, and done some of slacking Warren-style, and Warren's way is tougher.

Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to come on the 63-mile, 3 day backpack with us.You say, Warren-style is tougher (last section), then say come on a 63 mile backpack trip. Warren-style is van supported. That's how it was written. I was just following your comparison.


I thought you were a moderator. Sarcasm and digs aren't appropriate if you are.I restated her position. However, what you have quoted was removed by me when this thread was moved. I thought it would be fairer that way. You grabbed it while the thread was not in this forum. I'm going to leave it there though, so this exchange makes sense.

I said also that if you are thinking of the Expedition slacks as traditional slackpacks with a night's stay at an inn and other amenities at both ends you are mistaken. Please understand that before misquoting me again. You are a moderator, no?Sarcasm is ok if you do it? I see. Anyway, I never refered to the expedition as slackpacking. Again, I was following your "you hiked traditionally" and "slacking Warren-style" statement, which was immediately followed by the "anyone who thinks otherwise comment". You are asking folks to determine the difference by going on a backpacking trip. I still don't think that a comparison could be made by doing that.

No I did not misread your post.

the goat
05-22-2008, 16:52
I thought you were a moderator. Sarcasm and digs aren't appropriate if you are.

sarcasm & digs aren't out of bounds; sarcasm is a great (and often humorous) way to get your point across.

i hate hiking with vans. (see i'm on topic too!):D

Cookerhiker
05-22-2008, 17:05
......There is a lot of criticism floating around based on a lack of knowledge and rancor. I can't do anything about the latter, but I wanted to try to give a look at both sides from someone who has been backpacking a lot, and who has at least a rudimentary knowledge of how the Expeditions work. Sometimes it is helpful to be familiar with both sides of something to fully understand it. Kind of a walk a mile in my shoes kind of thing. Before you abuse, criticize and accuse. (Cookerhiker? Attribution here?)

Frosty, what needs attribution here? Your ideas and words are your own.

Lilred
05-22-2008, 17:08
sarcasm & digs aren't out of bounds; sarcasm is a great (and often humorous) way to get your point across.

i hate hiking with vans. (see i'm on topic too!):D

I think I'd like hiking with van's Van Morrison, Van Halen, Vanna White.;) (that's for the guys)......Van Camp baked beans..hmmm......:-?

Frosty
05-22-2008, 17:55
Frosty, what needs attribution here? Your ideas and words are your own.You had the song title to some words someone else used, so of course I tried to incorporate song lyrics into my posts. In this case, the "abuse, criticize and accuse" came from:

If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour
If we could find a way to get inside each other's mind
If you could see you through my eyes instead of your ego
I believe you'd be surprised to see that you'd been blind

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
Yeah, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes

Well, your whole world you see around you is just a reflection
And the law of common sense says you're gonna reap just what you sow
So unless you've lived a life of total perfection
Mm-mm, you'd better be careful of every stone that you should throw

Yet we spend the day throwin' stones at one another
'cause I don't think or wear my hair same way you do
Well, I may be common people but I'm your brother
And when you strike out and try to hurt me it's a 'hurtin you

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
Yeah, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes

There are people on reservations and out in the ghettos
And brother, there, but for the grace of God, go you and I
If I only had the wings of little angels don'tcha you know I'd fly
To the top of the mountain and then I'd cry?

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
Hey, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Better walk a mile in my shoes

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
Oh, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
Hey, before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes

Jack Tarlin
05-22-2008, 18:20
Hmmm.....

Interesting debate.

I know all sorts of folks who, if they had to slackpack 20-odd miles a day after a few weeks or months of hiking moderate-to-difficult terrain with a backpack, well, they wouldn't have much of a problem with it. See, they're in pretty good shape, and covering this distance with a quart of Gatorade and a tangerine wouldn't exactly wear them out.

But if we took folks who'd had car support for two or three months, who then had to hike14-18 miles a day (i.e average A.T backpacking pace after a few months) with a full load for more than a few days, well, sorry, I think they'd have a problem.

If I'm mistaken, Mr. Doyle, then please tell us how many days your "expedition" people carry their own stuff, and for how long; also, what is the longest period they're under their own power and not relying on automotive support.

In short, anyone suggesting that a car-supported thru-hike is more arduous than one done by folks who actually suffer the indignity and difficulty (oh horrors!) of carrying their own pack, is ridiculous.

Note to Mr. Doyle: If you don't want to answer this, as you generally make a practice of avoiding my direct questions, then I'll simply publish the schedule of your last "expedition."

But I'll give you the chance to answer for yourself. If you wanna show us how rough your people allegdedly have it, and if you want to tell us where and when they actually have to go without car support and carry their own stuff, then feel free to tell us.

If you don't want to tell us, well we kinda understand that, too.

Frosty
05-22-2008, 18:34
But I'll give you the chance to answer for yourself. If you wanna show us how rough your people allegdedly have it, and if you want to tell us where and when they actually have to go without car support and carry their own stuff, then feel free to tell us.Actually, I was the one who said that I didn't think I could keep up with the pace of the Expedition, not Warren. It was my personal evaluation of my own ability, and I still think that the level of efforts of both ways of hiking one's hike are pretty tough.

I think I said there was a trade-off between doing long miles and hiking with a backpack. Like someone said earlier, this type of hike is similar to what bike riders have been doing for years. They long ago found out that what they like to do is ride bikes and see the sights. Loading themselves down with gear, and reducing the amount of scenery they can ride by was not their main goal. So they use a sag wagon. It merely allows them to cover more ground than they would if they had all thier gears on panniers.

Using panniers and using a sag wagon is a matter or personal choice. So is hiking with or without a backpack. I don't understand why people are so up in arms at other people's hikes?

What's the big deal?

rickb
05-22-2008, 21:21
In short, anyone suggesting that a car-supported thru-hike is more arduous than one done by folks who actually suffer the indignity and difficulty (oh horrors!) of carrying their own pack, is ridiculous.


To my way of thinking, the difficulty of any individual's hike is very much beside the point.

The most remarkable achievement is being able to lead a group down the AT, from start to finish with little or no attrition.

To do this once might be luck.

To do it over and over says a great deal about the program and its leader.

Perhaps its no a coincidence that the participants in Mr. Doyle's seminars also enjoy a remarkably high end-to-end completion rate on their individual treks.

OregonHiker
05-22-2008, 21:29
To my way of thinking, the difficulty of any individual's hike is very much beside the point.

The most remarkable achievement is being able to lead a group down the AT, from start to finish with little or no attrition.

To do this once might be luck.

To do it over and over says a great deal about the program and its leader.

Perhaps its no a coincidence that the participants in Mr. Doyle's seminars also enjoy a remarkably high end-to-end completion rate on their individual treks.

I think the lack of alcohol and tobacco may be significant factor

Alligator
05-22-2008, 21:48
Since we've got about 1.5+ years to go on this shindig:cool:.

One question about these trips that I've never gotten a complete answer on is the completion rates. Warren typically cites the circle member completion rate. I think people could get a better picture if he'd present the total number of people who start at Springer and receive support from the van and the number that complete the entire trail. The numbers have seemed to me to have been parsed in the past.

For instance I'd be interested in this sort of breakdown.
13 people started at Springer. 8 were part of the circle. All 13 had their stuff in the expedition's van. 10 people hiked the entire trail, 8 were circle members. 1 of the 3 who didn't hike the entire trail made it up Springer but took the canoe. One person dropped off due to a death in the family, and one person skipped 200 miles.

I think that's a fair question. I'm simply asking for factual information so that interested parties can make an informed decision.

Alligator
05-22-2008, 21:54
Also, when we look to compare these completion rates, have there been other group van supported hikes to compare them too? I've said in the past the numbers cited have been very high. Have there been other groups conducted similarly such that it can be compared?

Speer Carrier
05-22-2008, 22:33
Warren says his members are self selected, and the "self selection process" pretty much guarantees a mentally and physically tough group of people. His self selection process reminds me of my high school football coach. He never cut anyone from the team, even it was a large school (New Bedford Mass) and he had at least four times as many people try out as he could use. He simply made the practices harder and harder until enough people dropped out. What was left were people who really really wanted to be on the team. I think that is a good part of Warren's success. The other part is a commitment to friends, which I shan't comment on here, but your mentioning comraderie is part of it.

This is way off the subject, but I spent my senior year of high school at Durfee High School in Fall River, MA. That year,1960, I played on the football team that was playing New Bedford High School in the golden anniversary game. Durfee won, but from what I heard it was a fluke. Ordinarily, New Bedford kicked our butts. Was that the school you attended?

warren doyle
05-22-2008, 22:57
Since we've got about 1.5+ years to go on this shindig:cool:.

One question about these trips that I've never gotten a complete answer on is the completion rates. Warren typically cites the circle member completion rate. I think people could get a better picture if he'd present the total number of people who start at Springer and receive support from the van and the number that complete the entire trail. The numbers have seemed to me to have been parsed in the past.

For instance I'd be interested in this sort of breakdown.
13 people started at Springer. 8 were part of the circle. All 13 had their stuff in the expedition's van. 10 people hiked the entire trail, 8 were circle members. 1 of the 3 who didn't hike the entire trail made it up Springer but took the canoe. One person dropped off due to a death in the family, and one person skipped 200 miles.

I think that's a fair question. I'm simply asking for factual information so that interested parties can make an informed decision.

1975 Expedition - 19 people joined the circle - all 19 finished the entire trail

1977 Expedition - 14 people joined the circle - 11 people finished the entire trail
the circle was broken at the base of Bromley in Vermont
(the remaining three finished within two years)

1980 Expedition - 14 people joined the circle - all 14 people finished the entire trail

1990 Expedition -12 people joined the circle - all 12 people finished the entire trail

1995 Expedition - 9 people joined the circle - all 9 people finished the entire trail

2000 Expedition - 6 people joined the circle - all 6 people finished the entire trail

2005 Expedition - 3 people joined the circle - all 3 people finished the entire trail

Seven circle expeditions - six unbroken circles atop Katahdin

warren doyle
05-22-2008, 23:00
Also, when we look to compare these completion rates, have there been other group van supported hikes to compare them too? I've said in the past the numbers cited have been very high. Have there been other groups conducted similarly such that it can be compared?

All other van-supported group thru-hikes (3 or more people) along the AT (and there have been only a handful) have either imploded along the way of have not had 100% completion rates (finishing with the same people you started with).

Pokey2006
05-23-2008, 03:34
But I'll give you the chance to answer for yourself. If you wanna show us how rough your people allegdedly have it, and if you want to tell us where and when they actually have to go without car support and carry their own stuff, then feel free to tell us.

If you don't want to tell us, well we kinda understand that, too.

Oh, there's no alleged about it -- this expedition is, indeed, going to be tough. Yes, I am hoping to be part of it. The challenge of it -- rather than the "easiness" -- is a big part of WHY I want to do it.

And, yes, I know the difference between traveling with van support and traveling with a full pack. I hiked most of the AT as a backpacker. I've hiked in the Himalayan mountains with a full pack, when everyone else hired porters and guides. I enjoy day hiking, but I also enjoy backpacking.

Honestly, I believe this expedition will be the hardest hike I've done yet.

Why, you want to know? A few reasons:

--High mileage nearly every single day, with a few days that I right now consider nuts. Examples: Pinkham Notch to Route 2 (over the Wildcats and Carters) in one day. 23 miles from Fontana into the Smokys as day one of a two-day backpack.
--No days off until Hanover. That's no days off until Hanover flippin' NH! Then only one more day off after that, in Monson.
--Inability to take time off if sick with the flu, exhausted, mentally depleted. Exceptions are made, of course, for injuries and serious illnesses or things like a death in the family.

So what's harder, hiking with a full pack, or only taking two days off on the whole journey? What's harder, carrying your tent, or not being able to stop for the night when you're exhausted? What's harder, staying "pure," or wandering off on your own to explore blue blazes, yellow blazes and aqua blazes?

To answer your question directly, there are only a few backpacks on the actual expedition.

1. Fontana to Newfound Gap, 42 miles in two days (10 miles without pack)
2. Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap, 30 miles in two days (plus another few miles without pack)
3. There's a short one in Pennsylvania, between Duncannon and Port Clinton
4. Franconia Ridge -- two days, Franconia Notch to Crawford Notch.
5. Three days on NH-Maine border.

But so what? Are the expedition members really all that much different from ultra-lighters? At what weight limit do you draw the line or make a distinction? Actually, I think some of us on the practice hikes had packs that were HEAVIER than some ultralight backpackers.

Jack, I understand you don't like Warren. That's fine. I can even understand why, and don't blame you for it. But please don't trash this endeavor just because you don't like its leader. I honestly believe this is an extremely challenging undertaking, and don't see how anyone can say otherwise.

Fannypack
05-23-2008, 06:43
Oh, there's no alleged about it -- this expedition is, indeed, going to be tough. Yes, I am hoping to be part of it. The challenge of it -- rather than the "easiness" -- is a big part of WHY I want to do it.

And, yes, I know the difference between traveling with van support and traveling with a full pack. I hiked most of the AT as a backpacker. I've hiked in the Himalayan mountains with a full pack, when everyone else hired porters and guides. I enjoy day hiking, but I also enjoy backpacking.

Honestly, I believe this expedition will be the hardest hike I've done yet.

Why, you want to know? A few reasons:

--High mileage nearly every single day, with a few days that I right now consider nuts. Examples: Pinkham Notch to Route 2 (over the Wildcats and Carters) in one day. 23 miles from Fontana into the Smokys as day one of a two-day backpack.
--No days off until Hanover. That's no days off until Hanover flippin' NH! Then only one more day off after that, in Monson.
--Inability to take time off if sick with the flu, exhausted, mentally depleted. Exceptions are made, of course, for injuries and serious illnesses or things like a death in the family.

So what's harder, hiking with a full pack, or only taking two days off on the whole journey? What's harder, carrying your tent, or not being able to stop for the night when you're exhausted? What's harder, staying "pure," or wandering off on your own to explore blue blazes, yellow blazes and aqua blazes?

To answer your question directly, there are only a few backpacks on the actual expedition.

1. Fontana to Newfound Gap, 42 miles in two days (10 miles without pack)
2. Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap, 30 miles in two days (plus another few miles without pack)
3. There's a short one in Pennsylvania, between Duncannon and Port Clinton
4. Franconia Ridge -- two days, Franconia Notch to Crawford Notch.
5. Three days on NH-Maine border.

But so what? Are the expedition members really all that much different from ultra-lighters? At what weight limit do you draw the line or make a distinction? Actually, I think some of us on the practice hikes had packs that were HEAVIER than some ultralight backpackers.

Jack, I understand you don't like Warren. That's fine. I can even understand why, and don't blame you for it. But please don't trash this endeavor just because you don't like its leader. I honestly believe this is an extremely challenging undertaking, and don't see how anyone can say otherwise.
Thx for this info.

I often disagree with Warren when it comes to the content of his posts but there are 2 things that I must agree with:
the hike u describe above is in fact very physically demanding besides the mental stress involved with hiking/camping with the same persons for the duration of the hike (these are my words and I would expect Warren would agree)
also persons that claim to hike the entire trail should hike the entire trail

Alligator
05-23-2008, 09:40
That didn't answer my question at all. Is there something you are hiding? The question is, how many people who have started with your group at Springer have completed the trek to Katahdin? I'm not just asking about circle members. I'm asking about other people traveling in the van supported group.

This is not nitpicking, this is asking for truth in advertising. Warren has intitiated multiple threads on these hikes, posted about them other threads, a couple of times unsolicitated, and frequently boasted about completion rates. These are legitimate questions. Members of this board have a right to ask these questions. It's a hefty chunk of time to commit to. Complete, forthright, and honest information is important. IMO, real leaders provide that and do not duck hard questions. Warren has in the past expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of information presented on this board. I'm giving him the opportunity to get the complete set of facts regarding lhis group hikes.

There are two people who have expressed interest for these hikes. It is my understanding that joining the circle is not a requirement to travel, so knowing the completion rate for others is important, since they too are contributing to expenses.

Frosty
05-23-2008, 10:40
It's a hefty chunk of time to commit to. Complete, forthright, and honest information is important. IMO, real leaders provide that and do not duck hard questions. Warren has in the past expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of information presented on this board. I'm giving him the opportunity to get the complete set of facts regarding lhis group hikes.

There are two people who have expressed interest for these hikes. It is my understanding that joining the circle is not a requirement to travel, so knowing the completion rate for others is important, since they too are contributing to expenses.I'm one of the two, but I don't need your "help" in deciding if this is the right thing for me to do or not.

Obviously you do not like the idea of the Expedition, and that is super. It isn't for everyone. It is a group of like-minded individuals with the same philosophy and goals. If the phiosophy and goals are not yours, you wouldn't enjoy yourself and in all honesty you wouldn't be an asset to the group anyway.

There are many ways to hike. I do not presume to tell you that the way you want to hike is wrong. It is very noble of you to be looking out for my interests, but since your philosophy of hiking is a polar opposite of anyone who is interested in the Expedition, I don't see how you can assist me and others of my ilk.

If this style of hiking threatens you, or if you think people should not hike this way for any reason, then continue to bang away at it all you want, but kindly speak for yourself. Don't pretend you are doing it to save me from myself.

Please don't fill this thread with the if-you-don't-hike-the-way-I-do-you-are-wrong venom that filled the WHERE'S KIRBY thread. Thank you, and remember Kipling's words about HYOH.

From "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling:

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night: -
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"

Then the silence closed upon me till They put new clothing on me
Of whiter, weaker flesh and bone more frail;
And I stepped beneath Time's finger, once again a tribal singer,
And a minor poet certified by Tr--l.

MOWGLI
05-23-2008, 10:43
I'm one of the two, but I don't need your "help" in deciding if this is the right thing for me to do or not.

Obviously you do not like the idea of the Expedition, and that is super.

So I guess I'm not the only one who acknowledges the obvious.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 11:01
I only presented the case that there were two people on the board who expressed in an interest, thus showing that there is some interest. I'm not asking on your behalf. You can ask your own questions Frosty and I'm entitled to ask mine. There are other people on this board though, and I alluded to that also.

Actually though, I am seriously thinking of spending some time with the group in 2010. I'd like to see what the ruckus is all about. I was thinking of broaching the subject of a week's outside observation.

I'm just asking for the numbers. Why is that so threatening:confused:.

MOWGLI
05-23-2008, 11:03
I'm just asking for the numbers. Why is that so threatening:confused:.

It's the manner in which you ask. He posted completion numbers already. Give it a rest.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 11:12
It's the manner in which you ask. He posted completion numbers already. Give it a rest.
There's nothing wrong with this post. So you give it a rest.

Since we've got about 1.5+ years to go on this shindig:cool:.

One question about these trips that I've never gotten a complete answer on is the completion rates. Warren typically cites the circle member completion rate. I think people could get a better picture if he'd present the total number of people who start at Springer and receive support from the van and the number that complete the entire trail. The numbers have seemed to me to have been parsed in the past.

For instance I'd be interested in this sort of breakdown.
13 people started at Springer. 8 were part of the circle. All 13 had their stuff in the expedition's van. 10 people hiked the entire trail, 8 were circle members. 1 of the 3 who didn't hike the entire trail made it up Springer but took the canoe. One person dropped off due to a death in the family, and one person skipped 200 miles.

I think that's a fair question. I'm simply asking for factual information so that interested parties can make an informed decision.

weary
05-23-2008, 11:44
If I felt I would be capable in two years to do a thru hike, I would join. It obviously will be a long and arduous and those attempting it have to demonstrate their determination and ability in advance.

As near as I can figure out, the facts are not as mysterious as Alligator suggests. Those who complete the required preparation are encouraged to join the "Circle" on Springer. Those with doubts or who have not done the preparation can start but cannot join the circle until they have demonstrated on the trail their ability and commitment.

It's all explained on the web site; http://www.warrendoyle.com/

It strikes me that the number who start is meaningless. They include late comers, the curious. Those who want to try before making up their mind.

Warren obviously is very proud of the completion rate of his "Circles." He wisely encourages everyone to know all the facts and difficulties before joining. It's a multistep process, designed to weed out the uncommitted and the unprepared.

Weary

A-Train
05-23-2008, 11:51
I think only those who have done a Warren Circle hike and a traditional backpackin thru are credible to say which is easier. I backpacked the whole AT, but I wouldn;t necessarily feel confident saying that walking with 30 lbs on my back is harder than slackpacking everyday. When I got sick I was able to take a few days off and rest. When I got shin splints I was able to go home for 2 days and visit family and friends. When the snow came down in Erwin and Damascus, again, able to take a zero day.

The fact is, the average thru-hike probably takes close to a month of zero days, and averages 12 miles a day. Thus, they have lots of time to sit on their butts, and then recharge their batteries. A person who has committed to the circle doesn't "have" that liberty. They can always drop out, but that's not an easy decision to make.

Someone asked Warren at his Circle movie screnning at the Gathering, "What about the people who got injured or sick?" to which he replied something like "They walked thru it and continued on. It was mostly mental getting over ailments".

So, if you consider that some of these folks walked for basically 120 days with 1 or 2 zero days and walked through lots of blisters, aches, ailments and conditions, I'd say that's pretty impressive. It may not get a rise out of the died in the wool purist, who loves to take pride in walking uphill both ways barefoot, but I think it's a) impressive and b) different.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 12:20
I'm one of the two, but I don't need your "help" in deciding if this is the right thing for me to do or not.

Obviously you do not like the idea of the Expedition, and that is super. It isn't for everyone. It is a group of like-minded individuals with the same philosophy and goals. If the phiosophy and goals are not yours, you wouldn't enjoy yourself and in all honesty you wouldn't be an asset to the group anyway.

There are many ways to hike. I do not presume to tell you that the way you want to hike is wrong. It is very noble of you to be looking out for my interests, but since your philosophy of hiking is a polar opposite of anyone who is interested in the Expedition, I don't see how you can assist me and others of my ilk.

If this style of hiking threatens you, or if you think people should not hike this way for any reason, then continue to bang away at it all you want, but kindly speak for yourself. Don't pretend you are doing it to save me from myself.

Please don't fill this thread with the if-you-don't-hike-the-way-I-do-you-are-wrong venom that filled the WHERE'S KIRBY thread. Thank you, and remember Kipling's words about HYOH.

From "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling:

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night: -
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"

Then the silence closed upon me till They put new clothing on me
Of whiter, weaker flesh and bone more frail;
And I stepped beneath Time's finger, once again a tribal singer,
And a minor poet certified by Tr--l.Frosty, I'm compelled to further respond here. It's absolutely baseless for you to suggest that I am presuming to tell anyone how to hike or that expedition style hiking threatens me. My earliest comments centered around a comparison that I thought was not appropriate and my other posts revolved around getting all the facts out. If folks want to engage in a hike of this nature, go for it. Great. If it helps them achieve their dream. Super. If you want to hike 5 miles a day. Fabulous. You want to carry a tuba, more power to you. I can't ever remember saying the Circle is a rotten way to hike or anything to that effect. Personally, I think it has the potential to be a good method for some people. Frosty, you are simply wrong in saying that I think people should not participate in this endeavor. I've always been comfortable with the notion of 2000-miler. I think it's a great accomplishment however its done.


...
Warren obviously is very proud of the completion rate of his "Circles." He wisely encourages everyone to know all the facts and difficulties before joining. It's a multistep process, designed to weed out the uncommitted and the unprepared.

WearyWell then it would be important to know how the effect of not joining the circle might reduce your success since that option is open, and I think has been taken by others. Only Warren can correct that by stating "all the facts". In fact, I think it would help demonstrate the benefits of his method to make that information available.

rickb
05-23-2008, 13:32
I am thinking that its rather remarkable that the odds of a Circle member completing a thru hike are higher than that of even the most seasoned and exerienced hikers on this list.

Got to wnder why. Warren's circle members are not supermen and women, but somehow they make it. Whether or not you take his approach or hike from town to town, it is facinating. Those kinds of completion rates can't be because the members don't carry packs.

Jack Tarlin
05-23-2008, 13:33
Pokey:

Thanks for the courtesy of your reply to my questions, even tho the questions were actually directed to someone else.

Good luck on your hike.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 13:44
I am thinking that its rather remarkable that the odds of a Circle member completing a thru hike are higher than that of even the most seasoned and exerienced hikers on this list.

Got to wnder why. Warren's circle members are not supermen and women, but somehow they make it. Whether or not you take his approach or hike from town to town, it is facinating. Those kinds of completion rates can't be because the members don't carry packs.I haven't seen any numbers comparing groups other than Warren's to suggest definitively whether it's the packlessness or the circle method that contribute to the success rate. Warren hinted some, but it's always a good idea to get a corroborating source.

tlbj6142
05-23-2008, 14:14
I am thinking that its rather remarkable that the odds of a Circle member completing a thru hike are higher than that of even the most seasoned and exerienced hikers on this list. It is the forced preparation and expectation setting that helps the success rate. Many of you are worked up about the pack/packless issue, when the real difference is preparation, expectation setting, hiking with a group that truly has common goals, etc.

How many non-Circle thru-hikers truly spend time physically preparing for their hike?
How many non-Circle thru-hikers truly understand what to expect?
How many non-Circle thru-hikers, that want to finish, end up getting "sucked into" the party crowd only to see their original goal (to finish) vanish?

Rather than complaining about Warren's "method", we should be learning from it. The thru-hiking "fathers" need to make a better effort to warn and prepare non-Circle hikers for their trips. Let potential hikers know the need to prepare, set their expectations and understand their true goals. Instead we just say "HYOH". And to those that don't complete their goals, we allow them to vanish from our memories as just another "statistic".

max patch
05-23-2008, 14:15
Those kinds of completion rates can't be because the members don't carry packs.

Well, part of it has to be.

I'm guessing that the receipe for success calls for equal parts of:

not carrying packs,
the initial vetting process, and
peer pressure

Interesting question.

Marta
05-23-2008, 14:32
Well, part of it has to be.

I'm guessing that the receipe for success calls for equal parts of:

not carrying packs,
the initial vetting process, and
peer pressure

Interesting question.

It is an interesting question. My gut feeling is that the last two ingredients are the most important.

First, the team self-selects members for commitment to the team's goal.
Second, once that commitment is made, the members help each other succeed.

It's like blaming your teenaged child's problems in bad friends, when your child first had to select those bad friends to hang out with.

The Circles are composed of "good friends" who help each other succeed. The pre-hike hikes are not only physical tests; I imagine that the hikes weed out some "theoretical hikers," who like to read about and think about hiking, but find the reality to be somewhere between disappointing and horrifying.

FWIW, I'm personally not a very good team player, and would probably not flourish in the team environment. Of my three kids, two are not team players and one is. The one who is will far outperform himself as a member of a team than he will as an individual competitor.

It is an interesting question. Could I hold up to the Circle's pace? I doubt I'll ever know.

Creek Dancer
05-23-2008, 14:48
The whole "circle" idea is not for me. Too cultish.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 14:48
If you think that Max's ingredient list is reasonable, and that as Marta says, it's a self-selection process shouldn't it at least be considered that the people who start the program should be included when examining the success of the program? People dropping out because they can't hack the prep hikes are possibly very similar to those who drop out in GA:-?.

Mags
05-23-2008, 14:58
I am glad there are so many ways to enjoy not only the AT, but the mountains in general.

Some are easier, some are harder. Some encourage group participation, some are better suited for soloists.

They are all fulfilling for the right person.

3 more hours until freedom... :)

warren doyle
05-23-2008, 17:08
If I felt I would be capable in two years to do a thru hike, I would join. It obviously will be a long and arduous and those attempting it have to demonstrate their determination and ability in advance.

As near as I can figure out, the facts are not as mysterious as Alligator suggests. Those who complete the required preparation are encouraged to join the "Circle" on Springer. Those with doubts or who have not done the preparation can start but cannot join the circle until they have demonstrated on the trail their ability and commitment.

It's all explained on the web site; http://www.warrendoyle.com/

It strikes me that the number who start is meaningless. They include late comers, the curious. Those who want to try before making up their mind.

Warren obviously is very proud of the completion rate of his "Circles." He wisely encourages everyone to know all the facts and difficulties before joining. It's a multistep process, designed to weed out the uncommitted and the unprepared.

Weary

Weary, you are very insightful.

The sole task/mission of the AT Circle Expedition is to transport an unbroken circle from Springer to Katahdin. The completion rate is solely based on this mission. We have had one unbroken circle in seven expeditions.

I suggest people read the three expectations for committing to the circle on my website below. I think they are easy to understand.

In 1975, we started with 18 people all in the first circle on Springer. There was another solo hiker that started the same time as the group on Springer. After walking with us for several days, the group and he mutually agreed for him to join the circle. All 19 finished.

In 1977, all those folks (14) were in the first circle on Springer. The circle was broken by one member in Vermont, with another dropping out in Hanover, and another dropping out atop Mt. Washington.

In 1980, all 14 people were in the first circle on Springer. All finished.

In 1990 (the subject of the Circle of Dreams documentary), we had 13 people start with 12 people joining the circle. All 13 people finished.

In 1995, we had 13 people start with 10 people joining the circle (I made a slight mistake in my previous post). 12 people finished - the circle of 10 was unbroken and we lost one non-circle member to a fall near Zealand Falls Hut.

In 2000, we had 14 people start with 6 people joining the circle. The circle of 6 was unbroken and all 14 people finished.

In 2005, we had 8 people start with 3 people joining the circle. The circle of 3 was unbroken and 4 of the remaining 5 non-circle people finished. We lost one non-circle member just south of Rockfish Gap to domestic problems back home.

I would estimate the 'drop-out' rate during our pre-expedition preparation sessions as between 40-50%.

warren doyle
05-23-2008, 17:11
I am thinking that its rather remarkable that the odds of a Circle member completing a thru hike are higher than that of even the most seasoned and exerienced hikers on this list.

Got to wnder why. Warren's circle members are not supermen and women, but somehow they make it. Whether or not you take his approach or hike from town to town, it is facinating. Those kinds of completion rates can't be because the members don't carry packs.

Another insightful post. Thanks.

twosticks
05-23-2008, 17:13
I am glad there are so many ways to enjoy not only the AT, but the mountains in general.

Some are easier, some are harder. Some encourage group participation, some are better suited for soloists.

They are all fulfilling for the right person.

3 more hours until freedom... :)

I gotta agree with you mags. To each their own and enjoy it no matter which way it comes.

BTW, those 3 hours are up. Time to go enjoy.

warren doyle
05-23-2008, 17:16
I am thankful that many of the recent posts on this thread have been civil and quite insightful.

Alligator
05-23-2008, 17:17
Thank you for answering my question Warren. The prep drop out rate was also nice to know.

warren doyle
05-23-2008, 17:19
You're welcome.

CrumbSnatcher
05-23-2008, 18:03
Weary, you are very insightful.

The sole task/mission of the AT Circle Expedition is to transport an unbroken circle from Springer to Katahdin. The completion rate is solely based on this mission. We have had one unbroken circle in seven expeditions.

I suggest people read the three expectations for committing to the circle on my website below. I think they are easy to understand.

In 1975, we started with 18 people all in the first circle on Springer. There was another solo hiker that started the same time as the group on Springer. After walking with us for several days, the group and he mutually agreed for him to join the circle. All 19 finished.

In 1977, all those folks (14) were in the first circle on Springer. The circle was broken by one member in Vermont, with another dropping out in Hanover, and another dropping out atop Mt. Washington.

In 1980, all 14 people were in the first circle on Springer. All finished.

In 1990 (the subject of the Circle of Dreams documentary), we had 13 people start with 12 people joining the circle. All 13 people finished.

In 1995, we had 13 people start with 10 people joining the circle (I made a slight mistake in my previous post). 12 people finished - the circle of 10 was unbroken and we lost one non-circle member to a fall near Zealand Falls Hut.

In 2000, we had 14 people start with 6 people joining the circle. The circle of 6 was unbroken and all 14 people finished.

In 2005, we had 8 people start with 3 people joining the circle. The circle of 3 was unbroken and 4 of the remaining 5 non-circle people finished. We lost one non-circle member just south of Rockfish Gap to domestic problems back home.

I would estimate the 'drop-out' rate during our pre-expedition preparation sessions as between 40-50%.
warren i have a copy of your cirle of dreams video, i liked it. met you twice once on springer. i have nothing bad to say about you,don't know you at all, besides pissing in some of the w.b.ers weaties and acting like a crazy s.o.b. sometimes, i think your a asset to the trail community. i know you have a ton of miles, slacking or not. who cares. i can carry 50 lbs and do twentys every day, but i like to freedom hike now an then too. its cool you help others fullfill there dream of walking the trail. IMO jack doesn't seem to care for you too much, of course i think jacks pretty cool too and anyone who does any trail work/maintence!!!

Frosty
05-23-2008, 20:47
Frosty, I'm compelled to further respond here. It's absolutely baseless for you to suggest that I am presuming to tell anyone how to hike or that expedition style hiking threatens me. My earliest comments centered around a comparison that I thought was not appropriate and my other posts revolved around getting all the facts out. If folks want to engage in a hike of this nature, go for it. Great. If it helps them achieve their dream. Super. If you want to hike 5 miles a day. Fabulous. You want to carry a tuba, more power to you. I can't ever remember saying the Circle is a rotten way to hike or anything to that effect. Personally, I think it has the potential to be a good method for some people. Frosty, you are simply wrong in saying that I think people should not participate in this endeavor. I've always been comfortable with the notion of 2000-miler. I think it's a great accomplishment however its done.Good to know. Glad that's all cleared up. Thanks.

ed bell
05-23-2008, 23:08
Weary, you are very insightful.

The sole task/mission of the AT Circle Expedition is to transport an unbroken circle from Springer to Katahdin. The completion rate is solely based on this mission. We have had one unbroken circle in seven expeditions.

I suggest people read the three expectations for committing to the circle on my website below. I think they are easy to understand.

In 1975, we started with 18 people all in the first circle on Springer. There was another solo hiker that started the same time as the group on Springer. After walking with us for several days, the group and he mutually agreed for him to join the circle. All 19 finished.

In 1977, all those folks (14) were in the first circle on Springer. The circle was broken by one member in Vermont, with another dropping out in Hanover, and another dropping out atop Mt. Washington.

In 1980, all 14 people were in the first circle on Springer. All finished.

In 1990 (the subject of the Circle of Dreams documentary), we had 13 people start with 12 people joining the circle. All 13 people finished.

In 1995, we had 13 people start with 10 people joining the circle (I made a slight mistake in my previous post). 12 people finished - the circle of 10 was unbroken and we lost one non-circle member to a fall near Zealand Falls Hut.

In 2000, we had 14 people start with 6 people joining the circle. The circle of 6 was unbroken and all 14 people finished.

In 2005, we had 8 people start with 3 people joining the circle. The circle of 3 was unbroken and 4 of the remaining 5 non-circle people finished. We lost one non-circle member just south of Rockfish Gap to domestic problems back home.

I would estimate the 'drop-out' rate during our pre-expedition preparation sessions as between 40-50%.
That's a typo (bold/ blue print), correct? Just wondering. Maybe you can edit that.

Lugnut
05-23-2008, 23:39
After all the discussion I'm still wondering why Warren "owes" anyone an explanation. Why should he have to justify his way of hiking? He never asked anyone else to rationalize their methods. If it enables a few to hike the trail who would otherwise not be able to then what's it to anyone else? This is nitpicking 101.

Alligator
05-24-2008, 00:06
This thread was moved from the regular forums to Hooking Up Lugnut. If it had stayed in the other forum, a lot more posting would have been acceptable.

Now that it's in Hooking Up, it's more strictly about the expedition. People will be able to question the particulars as finely as they like though. I don't think that Warren objects to civil discussion and I'm working hard to keep it reasonable. That's a little difficult to do with everyone firing away, but rest assured the thread is under watch. If Warren wants the thread closed he can PM me.

Just a reminder:
If a user believes a violation of WhiteBlaze Rules has occurred, they should advise a Moderator or Administrator by a Private Message (“PM”) with a link, if possible, to the post in question. If it is a post you want to refer to them please click on the report post icon in the post in question.

warren doyle
05-24-2008, 17:07
That's a typo (bold/ blue print), correct? Just wondering. Maybe you can edit that.

Thanks. I meant to say that we have had six unbroken circles in seven expeditions.
Only one of the seven expeditions had a broken circle.

Heater
05-25-2008, 06:44
I think another part of the success rate might be nutrition. Maybe the availability of some other supplies due to the van support. I am not sure how that works.

I do know I'd be eating very well everyday if I wasn't carrying the weight.
Is water available at the van everyday? (night/morning)
Medical supplies?
Personal hygiene supplies?
Luxury items?
Do they go on grocery "expeditions" once a week. :D :p:D :p:D
(That was a serious question)

Odd Thomas
05-26-2008, 04:15
This has been asked (and ignored) before.

What, pray tell, is a "folk happening?"

folk happens.

warren doyle
05-26-2008, 11:51
I think another part of the success rate might be nutrition. Maybe the availability of some other supplies due to the van support. I am not sure how that works.

I do know I'd be eating very well everyday if I wasn't carrying the weight.
Is water available at the van everyday? (night/morning) THERE ARE TW0-THREE FIVE GALLON CONTAINERS OF WATER IN THE SUPPORT VAN.
Medical supplies? EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN MEDICAL SUPPLIES
Personal hygiene supplies? EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN PERSONAL HYGIENE SUPPLIES.
Luxury items? VERY FEW, IF ANY, LUXURY SUPPLIES. WE HAVE A SMALL 'LIBRARY' IN THE VAN CONSISTING OF THE ALDHA COMPANION, THRU HIKERS HANDBOOK AND A SET OF TRAIL MAPS.
Do they go on grocery "expeditions" once a week. :D :p:D :p:D
WE HAVE MAIL/FOOD PICKUPS BETWEEN 6-8 DAYS. WE DON'T DRIVE TO GROCERY STORES ALONG THE WAY.
(That was a serious question)

THANK YOU FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.

Heater
05-26-2008, 14:50
QUIT YELLING AT ME!

Ok...



Medical supplies?
EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN MEDICAL SUPPLIES
Personal hygiene supplies?
EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN PERSONAL HYGIENE SUPPLIES.
Luxury items? VERY FEW, IF ANY, LUXURY SUPPLIES.
WE HAVE A SMALL 'LIBRARY' IN THE VAN CONSISTING OF THE ALDHA COMPANION, THRU HIKERS HANDBOOK AND A SET OF TRAIL MAPS.
Are these (medical,hygiene, luxury) allowed to be kept in the van. Some or all and to what extent?

Do your members not carry maps with them during the day?



Do they go on grocery "expeditions" once a week. :D :p:D :p:D
WE HAVE MAIL/FOOD PICKUPS BETWEEN 6-8 DAYS. WE DON'T DRIVE TO GROCERY STORES ALONG THE WAY.
This was really my main question. So, I am understanding that the food is all packaged beforehand? Bummer. I was thinking a trip to the market every few days for fresh fruit and veggies would be a BIG advantage to this way of doing this trail.

warren doyle
05-26-2008, 15:15
The use of capital letters without an exclamation point does not constitute 'yelling'.

Usually, everyone has two milk crates, or two 18 gallon totes, in the van to carry their food, clothing, stove etc. Bins in the support van are used for storing one's sleeping bag, shelter, and extra footwear.

Most members don't carry maps while hiking.

The only purpose of the support van is to meet us at the end of every day so we can sent up our individual camps for the night. We do not use it to drive to indoor lodging (unless it is a scheduled 'town stop') of to go shopping for groceries.

Heater
05-26-2008, 15:39
The use of capital letters without an exclamation point does not constitute 'yelling'.

OK. WHATEVER YOU SAY.

I STILL THINK THAT WEEKLY STOPS AT A GROCERY STORE WOULD BE BENEFICIAL.

:D

Roland
05-27-2008, 05:07
Warren Doyle,

I visited your website and viewed your 2010 hiking schedule. This is an ambitious schedule! To anyone who can hike from Springer Mt. to NH, without a zero-day, I respect your discipline and physical conditioning. Frosty and Pokey, if decide to participate in this trek, I wish you well. Sincerely.

I also viewed your preparation schedule. I am curious why the first training-trip, of a 2-year preparation routine, includes two, back-to-back, 20-mile day hikes. This seems like an ambitious start, when the ultimate goal is to build-up to 20 mile/day average.

What is your reason for such high mileage, on the first outing? Is this meant to serve as a reality check, to stress the need to train over the next two years? Or, is this meant to serve as a confidence-booster, by showing your teammates they can indeed do the miles( albeit over easier terrain than some areas)?

Given the success rate of your treks, I don't believe your approach is haphazard. I'm curious why you designed the preparation schedule, as you have.

warren doyle
05-27-2008, 16:35
Warren Doyle,

I visited your website and viewed your 2010 hiking schedule. This is an ambitious schedule! To anyone who can hike from Springer Mt. to NH, without a zero-day, I respect your discipline and physical conditioning. Frosty and Pokey, if decide to participate in this trek, I wish you well. Sincerely.

I also viewed your preparation schedule. I am curious why the first training-trip, of a 2-year preparation routine, includes two, back-to-back, 20-mile day hikes. This seems like an ambitious start, when the ultimate goal is to build-up to 20 mile/day average.

What is your reason for such high mileage, on the first outing? Is this meant to serve as a reality check, to stress the need to train over the next two years? Or, is this meant to serve as a confidence-booster, by showing your teammates they can indeed do the miles( albeit over easier terrain than some areas)?

Given the success rate of your treks, I don't believe your approach is haphazard. I'm curious why you designed the preparation schedule, as you have.

Insightful post and I appreciate your constructive curiosity.
Answer to first question: It works. It is not high mileage when you have all day to walk. 14 hours of daylight means a 1.5 mph pace.
Answer to second question: Yes. People who want to continue now have 4.5 months to prepare for a more difficult 3-day 63-mile backpack (first weekend in October).
Answer to third question: Yes, again.

My approach is not haphazard, . It is well thought out and carried through with both consistency and competency. I don't have an institution to hold me back.

ofthearth
05-27-2008, 17:03
Answer to first question: It works. It is not high mileage when you have all day to walk. 14 hours of daylight means a 1.5 mph pace.
Answer to second question: Yes. People who want to continue now have 4.5 months to prepare for a more difficult 3-day 63-mile backpack .

"I also viewed your preparation schedule. I am curious why the first training-trip, of a 2-year preparation routine, includes two, back-to-back, 20-mile day hikes. This seems like an ambitious start, when the ultimate goal is to build-up to 20 mile/day average."

What am I missing?

A three day 63-mile backpack after 4.5 months to prepare is more difficult than... "the first training-trip, of a 2-year preparation routine, includes two, back-to-back, 20-mile day hikes."? I can see that 1.5 mph pace (depending on terrain ) in not that tough, though going for 14 hrs ........ I am aware you've done this before so thought, as I said, I was missing something in the conversation.

warren doyle
05-28-2008, 15:16
As of today, out of 42 interested folks we have 30 people still involved (18 women/12 men). Average age is in the early fifties. 16 more days of preparation.

Sly
05-28-2008, 15:25
18 women? Maybe I'll clean up my act to meet Circle requirements!

warren doyle
10-14-2008, 13:25
The second prep session for the 2010 AT Circle Expedition is over (Oct. 3-6). It included a 63-mile 3-day backpack on the AT in northern VA and southern MD.
It was both realistic and productive for all involved.

From the 60 people who expressed an interest in the expedition, we now have have 34 people (19 females/14 males from 20 states) left.

Next prep session is April 3-6, 2009. It will include a 62-mile 3-day backpack in MD and southern PA.

More info on the Expedition can be found in the website below.

Happy trails!

warren doyle
04-06-2009, 18:59
The third preparation hike for the Expedition is over (April 3-5). It was a 60+ mile, 3-day backpack from Dahlgren CG tp Pine Grove Furnace SP.
We have about 20 people from 15 states still interested. Two more prep sessions left until we start northbound on May 1st, 2010.

warren doyle
10-15-2009, 16:53
The fourth preparation hike for the 2010 AT Circle Expedition was completed on 10/4/09. It was a three-day backpack (63 miles) from Pine Grove Furnace State Park to PA Rt. 325 (Clarks Valley). The first day was 27.4 miles.
There are 18 people still involved (6 men, 12 women; average age is 52 yo; range of ages 33-65 yo). They are from 15 states.
I expect the final group to be from 10-12 hikers.

warren doyle
03-31-2010, 11:36
The fifth and final preparation hike is over. It took place last weekend from Clarks Valley (PA 325) to Port Clinton. It was slightly abbreviated due to vandalism done to our support vehicle while parked at PA645.
The 17-day prep period is now over. We had a moving final reality check after the hike. We have 10-11 hikers primed and realistically ready to head north from Springer on May 1st. My eighth, and probably last, group up the trail (a 35-year labor of love).
We still need a support van driver(s).
Hopefully after a seventh unbroken circle atop Katahdin during Labor Day weekend, I will focus on contradancing, section-hiking, and the establishment of the Appalachian Trail Folk School and ContraBlossom at our home ten miles outside Damascus.

warren doyle
07-07-2010, 14:08
67 days down. 60 days to go. Circle is rolling smoothly and unbroken (11 hikers). Group is excellent. Crossing Lehigh Gap this hot day. Looking forward to reaching New England.

My new email is warrendance@gmail.com.
Cell phone is 423-341-1843

OldFeet
07-08-2010, 12:46
Glad to hear the Cirle remains unbroken and is still rolling along. We met briefly at Russell Field Shelter in GSMNP when I was section hiking in May and I'm hoping we cross paths again as you venture through New England.

warren doyle
09-13-2010, 17:30
We completed our mission when 11 hikers released an unbroken circle into the sky on Sept. 4th at Katahdin. It was my 8th, and final, expedition. Seven of them had unbroken circles (100% completion rates). The end of a 35-year era in long distance group hiking that may be imitated but will never be duplicated.