Cost of Thru Hike

[JDCool1]

I know this topic has been addressed sometime in the past, however, each year things change to require a different look at the financial cost of long distance hiking. What is it costing in 2007-8? this information is helpful to some of us who need to include this factor in our planning. Comments welcome.
What did it cost you, including transportation, meals, lodging, gear, misc.?
Thanks.

[SGT Rock]

I am estimating $4,539 http://www.whiteblaze.net/journals/showentry.php?e=184&catid=24

[Smile]

Wow, that's gone up from the old adage of $1 a mile! Especially with the cost of some of the new ultralite gear.

[Appalachian Tater]

In 2006, many prices had gone up since the guidebooks were published and the reason given was usually the cost of energy in its various forms. With oil at $80 a barrel and even pricier alcohol being pushed as a substitute, and the the dollar hitting new lows, you can expect more of the same.

It all boils down to the dollar being worth less and less. If you compare the purchasing power of the dollar now to what it was when $1/mile was a standard figure, it might actually be cheaper now in constant terms.

The price of postage is a pretty good proxy since it takes into account everything from fuel to hourly wages, etc. and the actual service it buys is constant over the years: http://www.akdart.com/postrate.html

On the other hand, hiking the A.T. has never been cheaper for Canadians, Europeans, etc.

I don't agree with all of Sgt. Rock's individual line item calculations but the total looks about right.

[Joe8484]

I havent made a detailed budget yet but my estimates are at $3000. Thats based on a 5 month thru with less hotel/hostel stays.

[JAK]

That was a great summary Rock. Very useful. So $4500ish or $2/mile, including $500 emergency. I could see trying to squeeze that down a bit or live it up a bit but I think that $2/mile sounds like a baseline I should be work from. Thanks.

[Marta]

I didn't see cost of getting to and home from the trail heads factored in there. The southern end won't be expensive but the northern end could either be cheap (hitching) or pretty pricey (whole family flies up and rents car and motel rooms to celebrate).

Cheers!
Marta/Five-Leaf

[JAK]

That's a good point, about the return trip.

I wonder also if it could still be done as cheap as $1/mile, not including return fare. I would like to plan and budget that amount, but then probably have that much again for emergencies and discretionary spending. For example, if I saw a service I thought might be worth supporting, I would like to have the wiggle room in my budget. I'm sure the Rock already has that factored in. My mindset is to be cheap wherever I can so as to be generous when I should. Otherwise I tend to get stuck somewhere in the middle all the time, paying for stuff I probably shouldn't and not paying for stuff I probably should. I would like to always buy something when I pass a little old lady at a fruit stand, or stay at a hostel I come across if it looks like its doing great things but needs more business. That's what I'm saying. Of course if you already know the trail very well then that can already be factored in. So I guess I'll budget for $2, but try and get by on $1, until I come across stuff I really like and then pay more as I sees it. :)

[ChinMusic]

As for the logistics of actually paying for stuff, do most places take credit cards or do you have to carry a significant amount of cash?

[mixinmaster]

That's a good point, about the return trip.

I wonder also if it could still be done as cheap as $1/mile, not including return fare. I would like to plan and budget that amount, but then probably have that much again for emergencies and discretionary spending. For example, if I saw a service I thought might be worth supporting, I would like to have the wiggle room in my budget. I'm sure the Rock already has that factored in. My mindset is to be cheap wherever I can so as to be generous when I should. Otherwise I tend to get stuck somewhere in the middle all the time, paying for stuff I probably shouldn't and not paying for stuff I probably should. I would like to always buy something when I pass a little old lady at a fruit stand, or stay at a hostel I come across if it looks like its doing great things but needs more business. That's what I'm saying. Of course if you already know the trail very well then that can already be factored in. So I guess I'll budget for $2, but try and get by on $1, until I come across stuff I really like and then pay more as I sees it. :)

Great way to be !!!!!
Read WeatherCarrot's (?) article in the articles section here on WB.
I spent $750 from Springer to Damascus this year.......... That was including everything except transportation to Springer....... However it was minimal gear purchase in towns...... And no booze or cigs............
I don't know what the future would of held on in to the last 3/4 of the way, but I was convinced that it could be done on $3000 if you were careful with your dough........It wouldn't mean you couldn't stay at hostels and eat out, but you couldn't stay at the General Morgan Inn and chow in their restaurant........ I saw a lot of people spending a lot of money by getting caught up in the town trap.......... I took one zero. Neroed into towns, stayed the afternoon and night, and got out early the next day........

[SGT Rock]

That is good to know mixinmaster.

I estimated that on a worst case spending scenario - and I did forget to estimate the cost to get to the trail heads. $10 for the south and about $190 for the north is what I have calculated after doing some research.

Although I am estimating about $4.5K, I would like to get by with spending less than $2K. I don't smoke, and boozing down the trail ain't my style. I don't like hotels, but I do like to eat.

All that said, I would rather have $4.5K allotted and use half than go the other way.

[oso loco]

I estimated that on a worst case spending scenario - and I did forget to estimate the cost to get to the trail heads. $10 for the south and about $190 for the north is what I have calculated after doing some research.


After 5 long hikes and a lot of shorter ones, I've found that the most expensive part of the hike "can" be getting home afterward. You're tired, hungry and sore, so a soft bed and a good meal look really good - and damn the expense.

Price increases - we spent 6 months "on the road" this year - mostly in the Rockies and Canada. In comparison to our CDT thru last year, the prices were a shock - a hamburger cost $2 more this year than last - motels were generally $20 more than last year - and even worse in Canada. And grocery prices aren't what they used to was either.

It's not quite that bad on the East Coast - but it may be by next year.

BTW - the $1 per mile went down the tubes at least 10 -15 years ago. Those who keep quoting that number need to learn to deal with reality.

[JAK]

Not to drift too far off topic, but it would be interesting to see some data on how much the cost of travel has inflated over the past 20 years. In general inflation has been fairly low, or so they claim, but I'll bet when it comes to stuff like coffee and donuts its been pretty high, and gasoline of course. When it comes to good healthy food, not just fast food, it seems to be getting much much harder to find a decent place. It's not to bad on the highway, but in towns it seems to be getting harder and harder, unless you go upscale. Not too bad for breakfast, and not too bad on highways. When we want to eat out we've been doing it more and more just for breakfast or brunch rather than dinner, or sometimes we drive up the highway a bit to find a truck stop. I know Tim Horton's coffee seems to be going up and up every year...

back in a flash - off to get my extra large double double. :)

[Footslogger]

Another thing that can really drive up the cost of a thru is buying gear along the trail. Not that it is necessarily any more expensive from the outfitters near the trail but it's just plain costly.

I ended up having to (and in some cases elected to) buy a few pieces of new gear during my 2003 thru. In the future I would seriously try (to the best extent possible) having all my major gear researched and field tested before my hike and then only replace as necessary.

'Slogger

[Smile]

You're right about this Footslogger, I learned this one year with boots, so when I found the right ones ( after breaking them in ) I bought another pair, and broke them in and had them ready to ship when the first pair blew out.

I didn't like the idea of breaking in new boots on trail, not to mention how much extra it would cost in the middle of the journey.

Just watching the $$$$ that Mtn. Crossings makes on people with major gear changes that short of a distance "in" is amazing!

[Cannibal]

Rock- What does the "days out" represent? Do you have to pay the wife $5 for everyday you're gone? :)

[SGT Rock]

Well I looked at this like an Army TDY settlement.

Lodging - look at hostels and hotels. I also decided to include the possible stays at pay campsites in this as hostels, that is why the number is high.
Meals - look at re-supplies
Incidental expenses - that is that $5 per day which is more than the Army pays.
Official telephone and mail - that is the mail drops

Add to all that an emergency contingency fund for a gear replacement or travel back home for emergency. As to gear - most everything in my pack has over 100 miles on it, and I am pretty darn happy with the stuff.

[Jack Tarlin]

Most of my hikes have cost between $2800 to $3500 dollars. I spend more money than most people on such things as tobacco and alcohol, but probably spend a lot less than most people on restaurant meals and lodging. I also spend virtually NOTHING on gear during a trip unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

Therefore, I think Rock's estimate is probably a good one.

For most folks I think $3500 to $4500 is about right.

A few quick budget tips:

*Save at least 60%, or maybe more of your budget for the North. Just
about everything costs more up there, lodging, food, etc.

*Whatever your budget is, add an extra 15% for emergencies.

*Have enough money saved so you won't have to go back to work
immediately after your trip as I assure you, you won't want to.

*Try and have some sort of insurance plan. Medical emergencies can be
horribly expensive.

*Avoid leaving too early in the season if you are a Northbounder. Leaving
too early means a much greater chance of encountering extended periods
of bad weather. You'll be spending more time in towns, some of it
unplanned. This could mean spending hundreds of extra dollars on motels,
meals, etc. Much of this money could in all likelihood be saved if you left
Georgia just a few weeks later.

[Johnny Thunder]

Jack,

What's "too early" in your mind?

Johnny

[Cannibal]

Too early? Can you provide me your definition of that phrase. I'm currently thinking Springer on March 1. I know that's a little early, but is it "too early"?

[SGT Rock]

*Save at least 60%, or maybe more of your budget for the North. Just
about everything costs more up there, lodging, food, etc.

*Avoid leaving too early in the season if you are a Northbounder. Leaving
too early means a much greater chance of encountering extended periods
of bad weather. You'll be spending more time in towns, some of it
unplanned. This could mean spending hundreds of extra dollars on motels,
meals, etc. Much of this money could in all likelihood be saved if you left
Georgia just a few weeks later.
Good to know about the 60% rule of thumb. I think this is the first time I've heard this advice.

As for leaving early - well it's unavoidable for me in a lot of ways. BUT I live within 3 hours of 25% of the trail ;) I can spend days off the trail at home :D

[JAK]

*Save at least 60%, or maybe more of your budget for the North. Nothing against the North, since I'm from up here, but that is sort of the reason why I would rather spend my 60% in the South, because it might go further, and be more appreciated. Of course I'm sure there are many places like that in the North also. Of course if I was starting in the South I would keep that 40/60 rule in mind, but I will likely start in the North, and try and save my 60 for the South. Cheers.

[Jack Tarlin]

It depends on the season. Sometimes the weather is really nice in early March. But I'm not sure I'd ever leave before the 15th of March. I prefer late March or even early April: You miss most of the bad weather; you're hiking in Springlike conditions right away (early starters don't see any wildflowers or much of anything green for months!!); the skeeters are pretty much done by the time you get to Northern New England; and you get to hike Maine in Septemeber, absolutely the best time of the year to be in the woods there.

To each their own, but this "trend" toward leaving early in order to avoid the perceived big "pack" of hikers doesn't really do much except to make sure that the "pack" is still in place, but that it can be found on the Trail earlier in the year.

[Marta]

Nothing against the North, since I'm from up here, but that is sort of the reason why I would rather spend my 60% in the South, because it might go further, and be more appreciated. Of course I'm sure there are many places like that in the North also. Of course if I was starting in the South I would keep that 40/60 rule in mind, but I will likely start in the North, and try and save my 60 for the South. Cheers.

What he's saying is that you will NEED that extra money up north. Everything that you spend money on will be more expensive, from restaurant meals to motels to groceries. (Especially tobacco, if you use it!!!) If 50% of your money is gone by Harper's Ferry, you'll either have to scale your spending way back, or you'll have to get off the trail.

Marta/Five-Leaf

[Cannibal]

Actually, I want leave early so that my A.D.D. doesn't stop me from reaching Big K by October 15. I want to be able to take a blue blaze someplace interesting whenever I feel like it. I really want to avoid the calendar countdown as much as possible.

Still, sounds like sage wisdom. I'll keep it in mind.

[Lone Wolf]

I can tell y'all this after 21 years on the AT and having hiked the first 500 miles NOBO about 10 times, that first time hikers spend a TON of cash in this section because of the frequency of hostels, motels, restaurants and outfitters and shuttle services. Newbies ain't used to the woods yet and Walasi-Yi after just 30 miles is damn inviting. Hikers tend to spend a LOT there. You really gotta watch your spending. It's so easy to fall into big cliques and spend wildly in towns eating, drinking and dining and then by Damascus you're in financial trouble.

[Jack Tarlin]

Lone Wolf makes an excellent point. There are indeed a lot more facilities between Springer and Virginia than there used to be, and they're not all cheap.

Hikers, especially younger ones on a tighter budget, really need to show some discipline here. You don't HAVE to stay everywhere. And it's really hard to spend money if most of your time is spent in the woods.

[JAK]

I wonder how many younger hikers needing it are actually capable of heeding it?

[Sly]

I wonder how many younger hikers needing it are actually capable of heeding it?

Not all that many. Running out of money has to account for a large percentage of hikers leaving the trail. It did me twice, but I had no problem going back to work and finishing up the following year.

[Marta]

I wonder how many younger hikers needing it are actually capable of heeding it?

Better a shorter, fun hike than a longer, grimmer one.:rolleyes:

Marta/Five-Leaf

[Jack Tarlin]

There've been hikers here in Hanover the past few weeks who were essentially out of money 38 days from Katahdin.

Camping in the rain eating Ramen while your friends are spending the evening going out to dinner, a movie, catching the end of the ballgame at a bar, and then going back to a warm snug motel room really sucks.

Yet these were the people ordering loaded pizzas and buying designer six-packs back in Damascus.

Do I have sympathy? Some, but not much. If you don't like the tent you're sleeping in, remember who put it up.

[Appalachian Tater]

Most of my hikes have cost between $2800 to $3500 dollars. I spend more money than most people on such things as tobacco and alcohol, but probably spend a lot less than most people on restaurant meals and lodging. I also spend virtually NOTHING on gear during a trip unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

Therefore, I think Rock's estimate is probably a good one.

For most folks I think $3500 to $4500 is about right.

A few quick budget tips:

*Save at least 60%, or maybe more of your budget for the North. Just
about everything costs more up there, lodging, food, etc.

*Whatever your budget is, add an extra 15% for emergencies.

*Have enough money saved so you won't have to go back to work
immediately after your trip as I assure you, you won't want to.

*Try and have some sort of insurance plan. Medical emergencies can be
horribly expensive.

*Avoid leaving too early in the season if you are a Northbounder. Leaving
too early means a much greater chance of encountering extended periods
of bad weather. You'll be spending more time in towns, some of it
unplanned. This could mean spending hundreds of extra dollars on motels,
meals, etc. Much of this money could in all likelihood be saved if you left
Georgia just a few weeks later.

Jack, this is exactly the sort of information that I referred to in another thread--information that you have provided freely to other hikers and that is so very useful but consists of your opinions and advice rather than raw facts or data.

[mixinmaster]

That is good to know mixinmaster.

I estimated that on a worst case spending scenario - and I did forget to estimate the cost to get to the trail heads. $10 for the south and about $190 for the north is what I have calculated after doing some research.

Although I am estimating about $4.5K, I would like to get by with spending less than $2K. I don't smoke, and boozing down the trail ain't my style. I don't like hotels, but I do like to eat.

All that said, I would rather have $4.5K allotted and use half than go the other way.

I hear ya...... And concur with the "better safe than sorry" route........ I would never have tried it without that buffer built in.............I saved and allotted $4800 for the trip even though I believed then and still do now that it could be done for less.... I'll never know if I was correct in my assumptions................. but that never stopped me before in my beliefs. :D

[mudhead]

I am sure you have done the math, but I am not certain I could get from Baxter to say, Atlanta, on $190.

Pretty friggy getting anywhere from here. Time, food, etc.

[The Old Fhart]

Although I agree you should do careful planning so you have more than enough money to cover all expenses on the trail and at home during a thru hike, I belive the actual cost of a thru hike is generally incorrect. For instance, the cost of food isn't technically a hiking expense, it is a cost of living. True, you still have to pay for food on the trail but I don't know of anyone who has a zero food budget off the trail. If the cost of food for your hike exceeds the cost of food when you're not hiking, then that would be a hiking expense.

In my case I own my house, have a pension, and every day expenses are paid no matter where I am or what I'm doing. I have been hiking for decades and had almost everything I needed for equipment. The cost of my thru hike was mainly transportation to and from the trail, and on a couple of planned trips home for graduations, guidebooks, etc. Even counting shuttle fees, donations, and an occasional lodging charge, my expenses per week were quite low.

If you are employed, pay rent and then quit work to hike the trail I think you could say that your loss of income is technically a hiking expense and this would drive the true cost of your hike way up.

Bottom line is it isn't really important what it cost you to hike the A.T. as long as you plan carefully so you have all living and hiking expenses covered and your hike is more important to you than what shows up on the balance sheet.
A thru hike is no different than any other 'vacation' that people routinely work out a budget for.

[Brad]

The good news is it still costs $1 per mile to hike the trail

The bad news is the trail is now 4,500 miles long.

;)

[hiker5]

TOF,
You are correct that individuals must consider how their current income and expenses are changed by taking several months to go hiking. But I think sharing that sort of information is as useful to many hikers, unless they have the same situation. I think that considering it in terms of "how much money would I need in my pocket (or accessible via ATM/Credit Card/etc.) to make it from one terminus to the other (and possible include travel from and to home)" makes the info usable by many.

Like you said, "A thru hike is no different than any other 'vacation' that people routinely work out a budget for." If I ask my friend how much it cost him to Hawaii include things like airfare, lodging, dining, and paid activities, but not the time that they took off of work or the cost of putting the dog in a kennel, because those cost don't apply to me. I look at the actual cost of a thru hike, as you put it, as being more of a normalized cost that can be practical information to share, but then individuals need to apply that information to their own situation. I don't disagree with your comments, I just wouldn't call these estimates incorrect.

[Appalachian Tater]

Although I agree you should do careful planning so you have more than enough money to cover all expenses on the trail and at home during a thru hike, I belive the actual cost of a thru hike is generally incorrect. For instance, the cost of food isn't technically a hiking expense, it is a cost of living. True, you still have to pay for food on the trail but I don't know of anyone who has a zero food budget off the trail. If the cost of food for your hike exceeds the cost of food when you're not hiking, then that would be a hiking expense.

In my case I own my house, have a pension, and every day expenses are paid no matter where I am or what I'm doing. I have been hiking for decades and had almost everything I needed for equipment. The cost of my thru hike was mainly transportation to and from the trail, and on a couple of planned trips home for graduations, guidebooks, etc. Even counting shuttle fees, donations, and an occasional lodging charge, my expenses per week were quite low.

If you are employed, pay rent and then quit work to hike the trail I think you could say that your loss of income is technically a hiking expense and this would drive the true cost of your hike way up.

Bottom line is it isn't really important what it cost you to hike the A.T. as long as you plan carefully so you have all living and hiking expenses covered and your hike is more important to you than what shows up on the balance sheet.
A thru hike is no different than any other 'vacation' that people routinely work out a budget for.

Excellent point. My fixed costs are low, so it was actually cheaper for me to be on the trail than at home. Most trail food is cheap and the restaurants hikers frequent are not expensive. Electricity, transportation, impulse purchases, dropped significantly.

[The Weasel]

Having done a significant stretch, I am redoing my budget for the future to change costs, trying to take the same approach to money as I have to weight; if it's worth it cutting a gram, I'm trying to do the same with pennies. (Old English saying: "Mind the pennies, and the pounds will take care of themselves." Sort of has an ultralight sense to it...money and weight).

That means things like Greyhound, which isn't as efficient but usually cheaper, hitching (not paid shuttles), and which for me will be about $175 from Long Beach to Atlanta, and Bangor/Long Beach about $225, or $400 total (although I continually compare air). I'm trying to eliminate motel stops, and hostels for work when possible, with a minimum of zero days accordingly (about 15, at an additional cost budget of $20/day) I'm also working on cutting food down to the minimum, by bulk/costco purchases and my own drying, which has worked in the past. No, I'm totally against the 'stealing is cool' approach to goods or services, but I have no hesitation about asking for freebies or discounts.

At this stage, I think I've gotten a varied and nutritious diet down to about $2 a day, based on a 160 day thru, with fuel and other 'hiking day' costs down to a total of $3 for all of it. I'm assuming gear replacement costs of about $200, including shoes, and pretty much everything I have is under lifetime warranty.

I'm not posting my total budget, but I've gotten into pretty total detail, and I'm pretty sure I can accomplish another thru (the whole way, I hope, this time) for about $1,750. Rock has other things to do, and probably will enjoy the process more than me, but if I do it again, I need to get the cost down. I'll drink beer when I get home, but not much until then.

The Weasel

[Jack Tarlin]

I think O.F. and Tater raised some excellent points. It should be added that a lot of folks, especially younger ones, don't realize how much of their trip will be spent in or near towns; i.e. there's this perception that one will be in the woods or mountains all the time and simply won't have any access to places that require the spending of money.

This simply isn't true any more, if in fact it ever was.......there are a LOT more places that tempt hikers these days, and people spend a lot more time in towns, motels, hostels, etc. than they used to. Subsequently, they spend more money, too.

The whole "one dollar a mile" mindset might have been true many years ago, not only because everything cost less back then, but there were also fewer facilities and fewer places to spend money. Also, hikers took less time off back then, and fewer zero days, mainly because there were plain and simply fewer good places to spend this time and money, but also, I really think people had a different mindset back then. Years ago, people would frequently spend six, seven, even eight or nine days in a row in the middle of nowhere, with no significant opportunities to spend money. This simply doesn't happen anymore; there are lots of hikers who don't spend more than five days in a row in the woods til they get to around Bland, VA, i.e for more than the first quarter of their trip, they stop at a town, motel, or hostel every three or four days, never mind restaurants, bars, etc.

This means the typical thru-hiker of today spends a whole lot more money early in their trip than they used to, and this continues to be the case as they get further North. There are simply a lot more places on or near the Trail than there used to be that attract hikers and hiker dollars, and in that today's hikers are better informed and have better guidebooks, the hikers know in advance where these places are.

In short, for most folks, it proves to be a lot more expensive a trip than it used to be, which is all the more reason for the prudent hiker to plan ahead, save sufficiently, and use some discipline once they are out there.

It was a lot easier to hold onto your money when there were fewer nice places in which to spend it!!

[Just a Hiker]

The good news is it still costs $1 per mile to hike the trail

The bad news is the trail is now 4,500 miles long.

;)

Thats funny!!

I was having dinner with a thru-hiker who had just finished the trail in Monson this past weekend, and because I am curious about what people spend, I asked this particular hiker what he spent. He looked me dead in the eye and said......."Ten Thousand Dollars"!!

Just Jim

[Appalachian Tater]

I'm also thinking more experienced hikers may spend less on a thru-hike, especially at the beginning. At some point you go from the , "Oh, thank god here's town with restaurants and a hot shower" mindset to "Oh, no, I'm almost out of food, I guess I have to go into town and resupply. It's a mental switch from being part of civilization but venturing out into the woods to being on the trail and venturing into civilization.

Okay, so I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the picture.

[Jack Tarlin]

Weasel:

Your post crossed with mine.

In brief:

*I think $200.00 for your gear fund is pretty low. Most folks will spend
45-75 dollars just replacing their socks!

*I think $2.00 a day on food is also really low. Unless you wanna live on a
handful of pasta, one ounce of cheese, a pop tart, and one candy bar,
you'llbe spending a lot more on food, whether you buy it ahead of time or
once you're out there. Hell a damn orange will cost you a buck in some
places. Food simply costs a lot more than it once did.

*Buying food in bulk ahead of time is fine, tho there's the very real chance
you'll get sick of most of your food long before the trip is done. And more
food maildrops of course means more postal expenses. Considering how
often hikers mis-judge their food needs (they usually have too much food
in their drops and either give a lot away or end up mailing some of it more
than once) for many hikers, buying in bulk or preparing all their meals ahead
of time does not really save all that much money.

*With every passing year, it seems that fewer places offer a "work
for stay" option, mainly because so many hikers don't do the promised work,
or do it poorly. You really can't count on getting too many of these.

*It is VERY difficult to spend less than $20.00 on a zero day, unless you
aren't paying for lodging or are willing to forego a lot of restaurant meals.

But good luck. And if you haven't already, check out Weathercarrot's excellent piece in the "Articles" section which deals with hiking on a tight budget. Lots of good ideas there.

[Lone Wolf]

All the planning and budgeting, like itineraries, usually go out the window after the first week on the AT

[Jack Tarlin]

Wolf's comment is pithy.

And in many cases, he's dead right.

[Appalachian Tater]

I agree. Just have as much time and money available as possible and go to Amicalola or Baxter and start walking. Likely you will never experience as much freedom as you will on a thru-hike. Don't spoil it with unnecessary budgets and schedules unless you have to.

[Jack Tarlin]

Whoa. Acknowledging that one might not end up sticking with one's original budget or schedule is one thing.

To say one doesn't need one at all is something else.

One's expected budget is a vital part of one's planning. For some lucky folks, the ammount of money one ends up spending on a long hike isn't a problem or consideration. For other folks, especially younger ones, it is of crucial importance, especially when lack of budgeting or planning forces one to drastically alter one's trip, or even suspend it.

Gotta disagree with my friend Tater....having an idea of what you can realistically spend does not interfere with your freedom. On the contrary, having a good idea about this, in many cases, is what allows people the freedom to complete their trip and not prematurely end it.

[The Weasel]

Weasel:

Your post crossed with mine.

In brief:

Jack, you're entirely correct in general, but not necessarily right in particularl. If 'the Devil is in the details,' I think its possible to whup the Devil by being detailed. I'll comment part-by-part:


I think $200.00 for your gear fund is pretty low. Most folks will spend 45-75 dollars just replacing their socks!

Yes, but from having gone through this, I think I can buy socks for less. Actually, due to real care, I didn't wear out either my liners or my thorlos in 500 miles. That's rare, I know, but careful care makes a difference. And since my gear is at a minimum, there's not as much to go wrong or need repair/replacement. Example: Not much can mess up an alcohol stove, but my gas stove is a perpetual repair-in-waiting. Tent zippers go bad, but a tarp is hard to destroy. Usw.


I think $2.00 a day on food is also really low. Unless you wanna live on a handful of pasta, one ounce of cheese, a pop tart, and one candy bar, you'llbe spending a lot more on food, whether you buy it ahead of time or once you're out there. Hell a damn orange will cost you a buck in some places. Food simply costs a lot more than it once did.

While many food prices are up, drying my own has saved me a huge amount and been very useful. I've got a variety of vegetables I can do, as well as fruits. Soy "meat" dries easily and is cheap. For main course dinners, I vary different kinds of pasta, rice, yellow grits, couscous and mashed potatoes. With about 160 dinners, that gives me real variety. I don't use cheese (at least 'fresh') but a lot of milk powder to make sauces. Candy bars/pop tarts get replaced by my own meal bars, which cost about 25 cents each to make. Interestingly, the easiest fruit and veg to dry is canned, from Costco. Breakfasts are my typical oatmeal with dried fruit. I almost always drink water only.


*Buying food in bulk ahead of time is fine, tho there's the very real chance you'll get sick of most of your food long before the trip is done. And more food maildrops of course means more postal expenses. Considering how often hikers mis-judge their food needs (they usually have too much food in their drops and either give a lot away or end up mailing some of it more than once) for many hikers, buying in bulk or preparing all their meals ahead of time does not really save all that much money.

Yes, but as to variety, see above. As for too much/little, leaving aside what I call "trapped days" in shelters, I'm pretty good at estimating my miles per day and drop planning. If I bus (as expected) to Springer, I'll probably carry the first 100 days of food with me to handoff to my son (he's fairly close to the trail) to mail to me, saving postage costrs.

One hint: If one determines one's caloric intake need, that makes estimating food needs for mail drops a lot easier. I use 3,500 calories as my number (I carry the deficit in my 'front pack') and plan my drops accordingly, for a 10-12 day basis. Since my food weight is about 1.25#/day, that's doable (I'm down to a total of 11# FSO not counting water). Further hint: Fats/oils are twice as calorie dense per gram (9 cal/gram vs. 4 cal/gram for protein and carbs). So I cut weight and cost by carrying a few oz. of olive oil, which is cheap to add to pasta/rice/grits.


*With every passing year, it seems that fewer places offer a "workfor stay" option, mainly because so many hikers don't do the promised work, or do it poorly. You really can't count on getting too many of these.

Quite right, too. But most small towns have the need for occasional day labor, on a cash basis. Believe it or not, I don't find manual labor beneath me, and to keep the cost down as I travel it's rather a point of pride to stay 'on budget' and not whip out the ol' VISA card. In 2000 I knocked on a few business doors to ask if they needed some help for a day or two, and was hired 3 times. Landscaping services seem to be the best for this.


*It is VERY difficult to spend less than $20.00 on a zero day, unless you aren't paying for lodging or are willing to forego a lot of restaurant meals.

This is actually pretty easy, Jack. First, despite the myth, AYCE isn't cost-effective, and almost no restaurant meal makes sense (other than Elmer's). So it's the same cost for me there. As for motels, I plan to avoid them in favor of bunkhouse hostels and by (honest) room sharing, which can cut the cost of motels dramatically. ("Hello. We'd like a room for four, please.") But my number of 'zero' days is going to be much lower this time, and only when it's essential.


But good luck. And if you haven't already, check out Weathercarrot's excellent piece in the "Articles" section which deals with hiking on a tight budget. Lots of good ideas there.

Yes, I'm aware of it.

Jack, think of this as if you were reading Ray Jardine for the second time. The first time most people read it, they say, "This guy is nuts. You can't do LD backpacking with that little!" Then they take the overload pack and think a bit, and tinker, and drop their weight. Then they read it the second time and say, "I don't agree with everything, but this is an interesting way to think about it." Pretty soon, they're cutting the labels off their underwear.

I'm picking up a different vibe out here, largely due to the PCT approach: There aren't as many trail towns, not as many distractions, and more of a "let's hike this path" approach than the AT, which is increasingly becoming, "Are there enough blazes? When do we come to a town? Where is the best burger? Who is the outfitter? Think I'll have a beer, or three!" This is a different focus, and I don't think anyone will disagree that towns are where the costs mount up. Maybe it would be useful for there to be less 'town cost', but for everyone, it's still HYOH. Still, I don't want to carry a heavy pack again, and next time, I hope to go faster, lighter, cheaper. And enjoy it even more.

I think that's possible.

The Weasel

[SGT Rock]

I am sure you have done the math, but I am not certain I could get from Baxter to say, Atlanta, on $190.

Pretty friggy getting anywhere from here. Time, food, etc.
Check here: http://www.greyhound.com/scripts/en/TicketCenter/Step4.asp

I can get from Bangor to Knoxville for about $131. Add some cash for getting to Bangor and a little for three meals and I figure $190 is doable.

From Maryville to Springer (and back for the family) will take about 8 gallons of gas - so I did underestimate the cost for that by about $10.

[Jack Tarlin]

Hey, I never said you COULDN'T do it, Weasel, I just said it was gonna be difficult.

*In terms of expense, while there's a flat rate deal going with Priority Mail, even a smallish box is gona cost you at least eight bucks. Assuming you put a week or so's worth of food in there, this means you'll be spending around $1.15 of your 2 bucks JUST ON POSTAGE. Sure doesn't leave much for your food! And never mind the occasional ice cream cone or treat. A bottle of soda pop costs at least $1.29 in this town, and if you want something healthier, it's even more. Two bucks a day doesn't go very far when an ice cream cone costs three bucks!

And even if you can get resupplied in person and save on postage, well there are some things you'll HAVE to buy en route, i.e. you can't live on dried or dehydrated stuff for 25 weeks. Two dollars a day doesn't get you very far in a market, especially some of the smaller Trailside ones, where everything costs more.

*As far as AYCE's not going very far, I think it depends on where you go. If
you go at lunch instead of diner, it frequently means you don't need to
worry much about dinner, which saves the cost of another meal right there.
And if you pick and choose your meals wisely, AYCE can be great. For
example, Everything But Anchovies in Hanover has a $5.99 all you can eat
special on Monday night. It includes unlimited pizza and a really fine salad
bar. With tax and tip, if you stick to water and don't have desert, this
comes to less than $8.50 and it'd be very difficult to eat this much food,
including healthy food, for anywhere else in Hanover for that much money.
In short, hitting the right AYCE can be a bargain.

*Dunno how many "bunkhouse hostels" you've stayed at, but most of them
are at least fifteen dollars and many are more. Doesn't leave much else for
your planned $20.00 day off, especially if laundry isn't included. Most folks
want more than three extra dollars to spend on a zero day; if you manage
to pull this off, well good luck to you.

*Splitting motel rooms 3 or 4 ways will save you money, but in a lot of places
even that won't do. If the cheapest room available in a place like Kent or
Hanover is 89 bucks, well even going 4 ways kinda kills your budget. And
have you ever stayed in a room with 4 or 5 hikers in it Weasel? I assure
you, you won't wanna do this often. Most older hikers will want to stay by
themselves or with one other friend; most of the ones who wanna split 4 or
5 ways tend to be around 22, stay up all night, listen to a lot of lousy music
on cable TV, drink a lot of beer, and are pretty piggy when it comes to
their rooms. I don't really think this is your scene.

Anyway, you have some good ideas, but unles you want a REALLY spartan experience, I'd bump up the budget a bit, but that's just me.

[Appalachian Tater]

Hey, The Weasel, carry a little less food at first and use up some of that gut. If you can lose as much as your pack weighs (I did), it's like you're not even carrying a pack. Sortof.

Betcha by the time you get to Hiawassee, you'll find AYCE quite cost effective, indeed. By the time you get through the areas with the AYCE places and up into Yankee land, then you'll wish you could find one. You'll dream about them. At that point, you'll screw the dried corn and the dehydrated soy this and that. You're going to want a bacon double cheeseburger with mayo on the fries and a chocolate shake and a salad with blue cheese dressing and a couple of pitchers of soda. For breakfast.

[The Weasel]

Rock:

To understand your budget, a few questions:

(1) What cost is associated with "days out"?
(2) You show 41 days out of 182 in hostels/motels. That's about 1 out of every 4.5 days, which seems a lot. What is the theory there?
(3) 29 "resupplies" means about 1 every 6 days, at $55. Is that just food/fuel? How did you compute it?

Thanks!

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Hey, I never said you COULDN'T do it, Weasel, I just said it was gonna be difficult.

I know you didn't, Jack. And I know it's going to be interesting. But I was a little nervous the first time I went total gonzo "Ray Jardine" light, too. Yes, it's a spartan gear experience going that way, too. The "backpacking light" approach to life is a new one to many, and "backpacking cheap" is equally challenging. I want to test most of it before I commit, but I'm finding most of it seems to work.


*In terms of expense, while there's a flat rate deal going with Priority Mail, even a smallish box is gona cost you at least eight bucks. Assuming you put a week or so's worth of food in there, this means you'll be spending around $1.15 of your 2 bucks JUST ON POSTAGE. Sure doesn't leave much for your food! And never mind the occasional ice cream cone or treat. A bottle of soda pop costs at least $1.29 in this town, and if you want something healthier, it's even more. Two bucks a day doesn't go very far when an ice cream cone costs three bucks!

Jack, I use parcel post which is usually $2-3 a mailing cheaper. I can mail 12# for around $8. It's still a hit, but that's 80 cents a day (12#=10 days food), which adds up. Since my food cost comes in under $1 a day based on what I buy in bulk (mostly pasta/rice/grits and veggies/fruit to dry), I think I'm pretty close.

No, there isn't a lot of money for ice cream cones, but that's part of the tradeoff. I can live without them; others prefer them. HYOH.


And even if you can get resupplied in person and save on postage, well there are some things you'll HAVE to buy en route, i.e. you can't live on dried or dehydrated stuff for 25 weeks. Two dollars a day doesn't get you very far in a market, especially some of the smaller Trailside ones, where everything costs more.

Well, I think it's possible, and I intend to see, if one can live on good dried/dehydrated stuff. The quality and variety will be a bit higher, since I'm going to do most of the drying, I don't see a lot of difference between "fresh" and reconstituted. Yes, it will be, as I say, interesting. But my diet for this won't be much different than last time, but without the town food.


*As far as AYCE's not going very far, I think it depends on where you go. If you go at lunch instead of diner, it frequently means you don't need to worry much about dinner, which saves the cost of another meal right there. And if you pick and choose your meals wisely, AYCE can be great. For example, Everything But Anchovies in Hanover has a $5.99 all you can eat special on Monday night. It includes unlimited pizza and a really fine salad bar. With tax and tip, if you stick to water and don't have desert, this comes to less than $8.50 and it'd be very difficult to eat this much food, including healthy food, for anywhere else in Hanover for that much money. In short, hitting the right AYCE can be a bargain.

Jack, AYCE is often a bargain IF you're eating town food. No argument there. But a lot of people think, "If I eat a huge AYCE, I don't need as much food on the trail tomorrow or the next day." Since, nutritionally, most unneeded food is eliminated as body waste the same/next day, that's not really the case. The trick (for me) is to not be in towns as much.


*Dunno how many "bunkhouse hostels" you've stayed at, but most of them are at least fifteen dollars and many are more. Doesn't leave much else for your planned $20.00 day off, especially if laundry isn't included. Most folks want more than three extra dollars to spend on a zero day; if you manage to pull this off, well good luck to you.

For the limited number of times I'll zero, they're there, and that is part of determining if I'll zero. That's part of planning. Just like you plan carefully what gear you're taking for a long walk, and consider all aspects of weather, route, and so on, planning where to stay makes sense too.

[quote=Jack Tarlin;408645] *Splitting motel rooms 3 or 4 ways will save you money, but in a lot of places even that won't do. If the cheapest room available in a place like Kent or Hanover is 89 bucks, well even going 4 ways kinda kills your budget. And have you ever stayed in a room with 4 or 5 hikers in it Weasel? I assure you, you won't wanna do this often. Most older hikers will want to stay by themselves or with one other friend; most of the ones who wanna split 4 or 5 ways tend to be around 22, stay up all night, listen to a lot of lousy music on cable TV, drink a lot of beer, and are pretty piggy when it comes to their rooms. I don't really think this is your scene.

Well, as for Hanover, you once offered a night at your place, and you've made it clear you don't like party-hearty types, which I'm not, so that's covered. If the offer isn't there anymore, I'll hitch down to White River Jct, where rooms are going for under $60 a night, and invite those with me to join me. All crazy partiers? No friends? Guess I don't stay in Hanover. I'll say "hi" on the way past. Other towns are the same. I'm not going to do this to see a lot of motels. As for laundry, my pants, shirt, undies, socks and other items wash in sinks or pails. That's what's good about microfibers.


Anyway, you have some good ideas, but unles you want a REALLY spartan experience, I'd bump up the budget a bit, but that's just me.

Yes, I do want a really spartan experience (those who know I am from Michigan will notice that I didn't capitalize "spartan." I'm a weasel, related to a wolverine). Others may not, and that's very cool. But I'm going to approach this version as a backpacking journey. I think it may be possible to drop my costs even more. That's why I'm trying to be precise as I test things.

And yes, you'd bump the budget up, and I can understand that. You might bring gear, too, that I don't carry. Great. That's what makes people different. But I think it's possible to stay under a buck a mile.


Hey, The Weasel, carry a little less food at first and use up some of that gut. If you can lose as much as your pack weighs (I did), it's like you're not even carrying a pack. Sortof.

If you go back and read my post, you'll see I referred to my "front pack." I expect to start off about 50# overweight, to my regret. I figure my daily calorie deficit to be about 2500 (total needed: 6,000/day). The "front pack" will provide most of that over the whole trip.


Betcha by the time you get to Hiawassee, you'll find AYCE quite cost effective, indeed. By the time you get through the areas with the AYCE places and up into Yankee land, then you'll wish you could find one. You'll dream about them. At that point, you'll screw the dried corn and the dehydrated soy this and that. You're going to want a bacon double cheeseburger with mayo on the fries and a chocolate shake and a salad with blue cheese dressing and a couple of pitchers of soda.

Well, since I know where most of those AYCEs are (you left out the Shoney's in Gatlinburg), I know how to skip them, including going past the town. As for the dreams, yeah. But as my mom used to tell me, "Wantin' ain't gettin'." A little austerity, both financial and dietary, isn't a bad thing, for weasels or others.

The Weasel

[Appalachian Tater]

Whoa. Acknowledging that one might not end up sticking with one's original budget or schedule is one thing.

To say one doesn't need one at all is something else.

One's expected budget is a vital part of one's planning. For some lucky folks, the ammount of money one ends up spending on a long hike isn't a problem or consideration. For other folks, especially younger ones, it is of crucial importance, especially when lack of budgeting or planning forces one to drastically alter one's trip, or even suspend it.

Gotta disagree with my friend Tater....having an idea of what you can realistically spend does not interfere with your freedom. On the contrary, having a good idea about this, in many cases, is what allows people the freedom to complete their trip and not prematurely end it.

Jack, I said, "unless you have to". A lot of people with adequate resources and plenty of time overplan their trips, creating budgets and maildrops and schedules down to the day if not mile, for a five month trip. Like L. Wolf said, it all goes out the window.

Much better just to put $5,000 in an account and use it without thinking if you can afford it. Other than boozing, the things thru-hikers spend money on are mostly food and shelter, not generally considered totally unnecessary luxuries. Going into a grocery store once a week while you're hiking is much more pleasant if you don't have to pinch pennies. Ditto on the pizza and burgers in town.

If you don't have the money, then yes, you should roughly budget. Still, it is likely to go out the window.

[Appalachian Tater]

Hey, The Weasel, I don't know about Shoneys in Gatlinburg, but that barbecue place certainly had a decent salad and dessert bar. It was a good place to eat the breakfast buffet, too. It really is important to eat fresh fruits and vegetables in town if your body craves it. If you have well-planned dehydrated meals and a bottle of olive oil, well you may not even get particularly hungry. But I ate several plates of bacon and sausage for breakfast after having a platter of barbecued meat the night before.

[The Weasel]

Hey, The Weasel, I don't know about Shoneys in Gatlinburg, but that barbecue place certainly had a decent salad and dessert bar. It was a good place to eat the breakfast buffet, too. It really is important to eat fresh fruits and vegetables in town if your body craves it. If you have well-planned dehydrated meals and a bottle of olive oil, well you may not even get particularly hungry. But I ate several plates of bacon and sausage for breakfast after having a platter of barbecued meat the night before.

Of course I'll be hungry, you dolt! :D As I've said, I'm trying to see how low cost I can make this, not how gustatorily satisfying! When we hit Newfound Gap, I'll wait for you while you pig out.

The Weasel

[SGT Rock]

Are you hiking out here again soon Weasel?

[The Weasel]

Rock:

Not this fall, but I'm considering doing some significant sectioning next year in 200 mile chunks. Then perhaps the whole silly thing in '09 or '10.

Did you see my questions about your budgeting process?

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Jack: A question, by the way, about Hanover: Is "Tigger's Treehouse" ($5/night) still operating? Floor space is just fine with me.

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

In terms of keeping cost down. I remembered that I hadn't mentioned something I did in '00 that was useful a few times, which I will probably do again:

I got 'letters of introduction' ("To Whom It May Concern") from the pastor of my church and also from the Council Executive of the BSA Counsel I was then very active in, with each letter introducing me as someone they knew and had a good regard for. Each letter mentioned that any courtesies that the reader could provide would be appreciated.

I used the church letter seveal times at churches of my denomination at which, seeing someone a bit bedraggled and with a shaggy beard, they might not otherwise have been as welcoming. Indeed, I got some extremely good welcoming, including a few potluck dinners, a room in a private house, and use of some church facilities. The Scout letter was more of a 'passport' (although I considered taking a few days off at a couple of nearby Scout camps), and was a major reason I didn't get a free room at the Mars Hill, NC jail, when the local chief of police made it clear he didn't like AT trail hitchers. In other words, they saved me money. Didn't ask for help, but people offer it when they aren't worried about the guy with the beard.

The Weasel

[Lone Wolf]

You're, I assume, a successful lawyer living in high rent Laguna Beach. Why you trying skimp? Handing out letters and looking for handouts is pretty sleazy, no?

[Appalachian Tater]

You're, I assume, a successful lawyer living in high rent Laguna Beach. Why you trying skimp? Handing out letters and looking for handouts is pretty sleazy, no?

L. Wolf, the median home there is approximately $2,000,000.00 and there is little or nothing on the market under $1,000,000.00. A couple of years ago I saw a one-room beach shack (but not near the beach) on a tiny lot, probably originally a little garage, for $995,000.00. Very few truly poor people live there, there's just no place for them to sleep.

The Weasel, instead of all those letters and get out of jail free cards, wouldn't it just be easier to take a shower and shave?

[SGT Rock]

Rock:

To understand your budget, a few questions:

(1) What cost is associated with "days out"?
I don't know. This is like the Army "incidental expenses" to me. It could mean laundry one day, it could mean socks another day. It could mean I don't need anything for four days and then on the fifth I spend $25 in a town on pizza. The standard is $3 a day CONUS for TCS, so I bumped it up a couple of dollars.

(2) You show 41 days out of 182 in hostels/motels. That's about 1 out of every 4.5 days, which seems a lot. What is the theory there?

Worst case it. I also took "hostel" in my planning to mean anything that costs less than $25 for lodging. So the Doyle Hotel, some pay campsites I might use in the Whites, etc.

(3) 29 "resupplies" means about 1 every 6 days, at $55. Is that just food/fuel? How did you compute it? Again, I sort of worst cased it based on a couple of shopping trips to convenience markets. I learned a while back that the first $5 is for eating something BEFORE you shop to reduce your food bill. One thing I have notices after all these years hanging around hikers and thru-hiking season is to check out hiker boxes whenever possible before you shop. It is amazing what you can find in some including some gear you may need. I figure picking through a hiker box is exactly what they are there for in the first place.

In the end, this is another place I figure I have overestimated how I will work. You can ask my wife - I normally live on WAY less money when TDY for a month than I have planned for my hike.

Rock:

Not this fall, but I'm considering doing some significant sectioning next year in 200 mile chunks. Then perhaps the whole silly thing in '09 or '10.

Did you see my questions about your budgeting process?

The Weasel
Let me know when you are in this area or I will hunt you down and find you. I am serious on that.

I didn't see it until you highlighted it. I have been a little off my normal sleep lately. Probably a touch of the PTSD or something LOL

[Roland]

Where I'm from, chuch volunteers are often elderly, widowed women, on fixed incomes.

Taking advantage of their sacrifice to help the needy, while away from your million dollar home, is blasphemous.

[The Weasel]

You're, I assume, a successful lawyer living in high rent Laguna Beach. Why you trying skimp? Handing out letters and looking for handouts is pretty sleazy, no?

Wolf, you have no idea what my finances are, any more than I have of yours. So no, it's not sleazy. Any more than the NY Times story that says you're "independently wealthy."

Nor do I "hand out" letters. For my church, it is a useful way of appearing for activities of that church. For Scouts, it is a way to let Camp Rangers know (more than just a membership card) that I'm OK to let stay in the Group Camp that most Scout Camps have for adults. But such things are useful, and can have the additional benefit of saving money.

The Weasel

[Lone Wolf]

Where I'm from, chuch volunteers are often elderly, widowed women, on fixed incomes.

Taking advantage of their sacrifice to help the needy, while away from your million dollar home, is blasphemous.

no s**t. just what i'm thinkin. if you plan to marathon(thru) hike the AT then pay your whole way. don't look for work-for-stays, church handouts, etc.

[SGT Rock]

no s**t. just what i'm thinkin. if you plan to marathon(thru) hike the AT then pay your whole way. don't look for work-for-stays, church handouts, etc.
I was thiking the same thing.

[The Weasel]

Where I'm from, chuch volunteers are often elderly, widowed women, on fixed incomes.

Taking advantage of their sacrifice to help the needy, while away from your million dollar home, is blasphemous.

Well, glad you think I'm blaspheming. That's a new one, and I sort of thought that gratuitous attacks on me were getting a bit repetitive, so thanks for the novelty. :D

But I don't really see attending a pot luck at the invitation of the pastor, and then tenting in the field below the church, as taking advantage of someone. And perhaps I'm a better guest than you think in terms of what I give back. You neither know who I stayed with, nor why they invited me, nor why I accepted.

But yes, my home IS a "million dollar home." Out here, that is - literally - a 2 (small) BR and 1.5 bath bungalow, about 600 sq. ft. Just saw my landlord to pay the rent. It's his, not mine. Pity I can't afford to buy it. Ah well. Back to blaspheming, I guess.

The Weasel

[Lone Wolf]

AT thru-hikes(hikers) are a dime-a-dozen anymore. locals and churches aren't impressed with your hike. they've seen way to many freeloaders and elitism

[SGT Rock]

Well, glad you think I'm blaspheming. That's a new one, and I sort of thought that gratuitous attacks on me were getting a bit repetitive, so thanks for the novelty. :D

But I don't really see attending a pot luck at the invitation of the pastor, and then tenting in the field below the church, as taking advantage of someone. And perhaps I'm a better guest than you think in terms of what I give back. You neither know who I stayed with, nor why they invited me, nor why I accepted.

But yes, my home IS a "million dollar home." Out here, that is - literally - a 2 (small) BR and 1.5 bath bungalow, about 600 sq. ft. Just saw my landlord to pay the rent. It's his, not mine. Pity I can't afford to buy it. Ah well. Back to blaspheming, I guess.

The Weasel
I know as a Baptist you blaspheme if you don't eat, despite your need or want. You better damn well eat if you know what is good for your eternal resting place. Ask Dixie if you think I'm kidding on this. :sun

[The Weasel]

Wolf, I understand your point, but if it's a "pay your own way," then subsidized hostels and such are out, too. I'm minded of The Place, where there is no way that they support the cost of that facility out of the donations (and the three different times I've been there I've 'contributed' more than the 'suggested' amount). "Pay for stay" has a long and honorable tradition on the trail and, lest anyone wonder, you might note that I am planning (as I did before) rather infrequent 'town days'.

Most hostel owners make it clear - bless 'em - that they aren't doing it for the money, and that they lose on it. So, in that sense, those who stay at such places are, to that extent, 'free loading.' But I think as long as one honors the wishes (behavior as well as 'donation' or charge) of the owners, that's not "taking freebies."

The Weasel

[hiker5]

Wow, is it pile on The Weasel day or something?

[The Weasel]

I know as a Baptist you blaspheme if you don't eat, despite your need or want. You better damn well eat if you know what is good for your eternal resting place. Ask Dixie if you think I'm kidding on this. :sun

Well, at the church potluck I was at in Hiawassee, I was NOT going to offend by turning down the food I was offered. That would have been a bit of blasphemy, too.

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Wow, is it pile on The Weasel day or something?

Those days only happen if they eye in "Y".

The Weasel

[Appalachian Tater]

Weaselnegators: 2
Blasphemous, sleazy, gratuitously-attacked, pot-lucker: 0

By the way, The Weasel, pot-lucks ARE AYCE. And what did you take to the pot-luck?

[SGT Rock]

Hey, if you are ever in a town and invited to a pot luck - just get a tub of 'tater salad from any store.

Again, ask Dixie if you think I am kidding. She was born and raised Baptist and knows that in the by-laws this is absolutly true - as well as the part about refusing food at a pot-luck. God bless those Baptists.

[The Weasel]

L. Wolf, the median home there is approximately $2,000,000.00 and there is little or nothing on the market under $1,000,000.00. A couple of years ago I saw a one-room beach shack (but not near the beach) on a tiny lot, probably originally a little garage, for $995,000.00. Very few truly poor people live there, there's just no place for them to sleep.

The Weasel, instead of all those letters and get out of jail free cards, wouldn't it just be easier to take a shower and shave?

Well, Tater, if you bothered to read what I posted, you'd see why I'm proud to be a Scouter, and that I valued knowing I could visit a Camp or program. I've paid my dues to Scouting, and if I wanted to stay at a Scout Camp and pay for it, I'm not sure exactly what your problem with that is. As for showers, I was probably cleaner on the trail than you are off. As for the beard, well, it was my personal emblem that I was on the Trail. Sorry that I don't live life as you want me to. Tell me more about you so I can tell you how you fail my standards.

And, yes, there are a large number of middle class people here in Laguna Beach hacking out a living, and renting since they'll never be able to buy a home. I'm one of them. I have expenses you don't know, and that I'm not about to tell you about. Sorry, but that's not your business.

Sorry, too, that it's more important for you to attack people than to consider that maybe not everyone is what you assume them to be. Have a nice day. :D

The Weasel

[hiker5]

Regardless of denomination, you just can't turn down a potluck barring extreme circumstance. An while its a nice bonus if you can bring something, generally guests are very welcome if they just bring their appetite.

[The Weasel]

Hey, if you are ever in a town and invited to a pot luck - just get a tub of 'tater salad from any store.

Again, ask Dixie if you think I am kidding. She was born and raised Baptist and knows that in the by-laws this is absolutly true - as well as the part about refusing food at a pot-luck. God bless those Baptists.

Well, sometimes when you're standing there, and someone says, "C'mon to dinner," you don't have time to hit the deli aisle, Rock. And maybe you throw something in the bucket when it's passed around, or maybe you don't, but that's just between you and God, so I'm sorry not to clue Tater in.

But yeah. Bless the Baptist, Methodists, Catholics, and a few others. (Actually, bless 'em all.)

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Regardless of denomination, you just can't turn down a potluck barring extreme circumstance. An while its a nice bonus if you can bring something, generally guests are very welcome if they just bring their appetite.

That concept, Hiker, is known in some parts as the "Cherry Pie Method Of Christian Evangelism." It works, too.

The Weasel

[Lone Wolf]

At least at a catholic gig alcohol would be totally welcome unlike them closet drinkin' hypocritical baptists.:cool:

[dixicritter]

Hey, if you are ever in a town and invited to a pot luck - just get a tub of 'tater salad from any store.

Again, ask Dixie if you think I am kidding. She was born and raised Baptist and knows that in the by-laws this is absolutly true - as well as the part about refusing food at a pot-luck. God bless those Baptists.

Yep, it's true.... and every Baptist church must have columns on the front of the building too. It's in the by-laws. :p

[The Weasel]

I don't know. ***

Let me know when you are in this area or I will hunt you down and find you. I am serious on that.

I didn't see it until you highlighted it. I have been a little off my normal sleep lately. Probably a touch of the PTSD or something LOL

I got it: You're doing what I call a "high side" budget, which is a safe bet ("pessimists are never unpleasantly surprised"). That makes sense, too.

My current approach is to try to do a straightjacket budget, i.e. if it's not in the budget, it don't get bought. There's risk in that, I know. The "trouble fund" component will be small but that's how it's gonna be.

Those who prefer to believe that I am wealthy may send checks to me to make it so.

Thanks. I think your budget is prudent, just uses different assumptions than mine.

As for seeing you when I get there, give me a town (by PM, please). I have family in NC, so even if I'm not hiking, I might be able to find you to bother you.

The Weasel

[Appalachian Tater]

As for showers, I was probably cleaner on the trail than you are off.

Well, I should certainly hope so.

[The Weasel]

Yep, it's true.... and every Baptist church must have columns on the front of the building too. It's in the by-laws. :p

Ummmm...don't tell Dixi this. PLEASE? Baptist Church my son got married in didn't have columns. But it had a lot of pillars...as in people who were "pillars of the Church." Does that count?

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

At least at a catholic gig alcohol would be totally welcome unlike them closet drinkin' hypocritical baptists.:cool:

Blasphemy? Is Wolf joining me in the blasphemy corner?

The Weasel

[dixicritter]

Ummmm...don't tell Dixi this. PLEASE? Baptist Church my son got married in didn't have columns. But it had a lot of pillars...as in people who were "pillars of the Church." Does that count?

The Weasel

Tisk tisk, must've been one of them thar backwards ones... ;)

[Lone Wolf]

Blasphemy? Is Wolf joining me in the blasphemy corner?

The Weasel

you gotta believe in that SCAT first before you think you're being blasphemous

[SGT Rock]

You're right there Weasel. The other denominations probably have similar rules since they all trace their linage back to Paul and the original supper on the ground. I reckon they all have similar rules about refusing the hospitality of others.

It doesn't matter if your are a rich lawyer or poor hiker, you better eat.

[SGT Rock]

you gotta believe in that SCAT first before you think you're being blasphemous Well it really doesn't matter what you believe when you are at a Baptist pot luck - you better just "recognize" and eat - or else risk damnation.

[Just a Hiker]

In terms of keeping cost down. I remembered that I hadn't mentioned something I did in '00 that was useful a few times, which I will probably do again:

I got 'letters of introduction' ("To Whom It May Concern") from the pastor of my church and also from the Council Executive of the BSA Counsel I was then very active in, with each letter introducing me as someone they knew and had a good regard for. Each letter mentioned that any courtesies that the reader could provide would be appreciated.

I used the church letter seveal times at churches of my denomination at which, seeing someone a bit bedraggled and with a shaggy beard, they might not otherwise have been as welcoming. Indeed, I got some extremely good welcoming, including a few potluck dinners, a room in a private house, and use of some church facilities. The Scout letter was more of a 'passport' (although I considered taking a few days off at a couple of nearby Scout camps), and was a major reason I didn't get a free room at the Mars Hill, NC jail, when the local chief of police made it clear he didn't like AT trail hitchers. In other words, they saved me money. Didn't ask for help, but people offer it when they aren't worried about the guy with the beard.

The Weasel

Hey all,

I have debated with myself for the past 2 hours whether or not I should respond to The Weasel's post that I have quoted; however, I have to say something. First of all, how a person hikes their hike is their business, and I would never question anyone's methods, but I have a problem with someone setting the wrong example.

My first question to you Mr. Weasel....do you walk around with a "Letter of Introduction" all the time, or just when you are hiking on the Appalachian Trail? If it's just when you are on the AT....then what entitles you to flash a letter, and then expect services from churches and Boy Scout Troops?

To me, this is setting a bad example to young hikers, and this sort of behavior is just another symptom of what is going wrong along the Appalachian Trail. I am not sure where this sense of entitlement came from, but it is hurting Everyone who hikes the AT. I see this sense of entitlement all of the time....on Whiteblaze, and on the trail. Hikers are now under the impression that they can do whatever they want just because their hiking the Appalachian Trail. It's this sense of entitlement that is endangering services along the trail, because hikers walk into a trail town and they think the locals should give them the key to the city; or in Mr. Weasels case, a place to stay and a free meal.

I am sorry Mr. Weasel, you can rationalize this all you want, but you are just looking for something for nothing. Take care.


Just Jim

[Appalachian Tater]

Actually the whole idea of a letter of introduction fell out of common usage sometime after WWII, but The Weasel has several thousand years of tradition on his side in this matter. Your passport is basically a form of the same and is issued by the Secretary of State and requests that the bearer be given aid, etc. In his case, he is not presenting it randomly, but to people with whom he has an affiliation.

[The Weasel]

You're right there Weasel. The other denominations probably have similar rules since they all trace their linage back to Paul and the original supper on the ground. I reckon they all have similar rules about refusing the hospitality of others.

It doesn't matter if your are a rich lawyer or poor hiker, you better eat.
How about if I'm a poor lawyer but a rich hiker?

Yeah, lotta people think the fihes and the loaves of bread was a pot luck.

I became an active Methodist for about 15 years thanks to Ethel Garling (RIP, great lady!) baking cherry pie. Woman got more members to join that church thanks to her pie crust than 100 sermons!

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Hey all,

I have debated with myself for the past 2 hours whether or not I should respond to The Weasel's post that I have quoted; however, I have to say something. First of all, how a person hikes their hike is their business, and I would never question anyone's methods, but I have a problem with someone setting the wrong example.

My first question to you Mr. Weasel....do you walk around with a "Letter of Introduction" all the time, or just when you are hiking on the Appalachian Trail? If it's just when you are on the AT....then what entitles you to flash a letter, and then expect services from churches and Boy Scout Troops?

To me, this is setting a bad example to young hikers, and this sort of behavior is just another symptom of what is going wrong along the Appalachian Trail. I am not sure where this sense of entitlement came from, but it is hurting Everyone who hikes the AT. I see this sense of entitlement all of the time....on Whiteblaze, and on the trail. Hikers are now under the impression that they can do whatever they want just because their hiking the Appalachian Trail. It's this sense of entitlement that is endangering services along the trail, because hikers walk into a trail town and they think the locals should give them the key to the city; or in Mr. Weasels case, a place to stay and a free meal.

I am sorry Mr. Weasel, you can rationalize this all you want, but you are just looking for something for nothing. Take care.


Just Jim

Jim: I'll answer your questions at two levels. They're good ones. You're wrong - at least about me - but that doesn't mean you don't have a good question.

First of all, yeah, I do. I've carried that dang Scout letter for the last 8 years, and I'll keep carrying it. I don't carry the one from my church, since the pastor that signed it isn't there, but I kept it in my wallet a long time.
Why? Well, in some ways because, as 'Tater said, they really were passports. Now, as to the Scout one, did I ask or or take anything for free? On that one, you may not realize it, but you're wrong on two levels: First, I take the Scout Law seriously, even if I don't live up to it perfectly. And "A Scout is Thrifty...He seeks to pay his own way." So I would no more camp for free at a Scout camp than would my Troop. We pay. BUT: Scout camps usually have a "Family Camp" for adults (without kids) and allow registered Scout leaders/adults to camp there. But with all the safety concerns, a bearded guy with a backpack might not get in, even with a current membership card, and rightly so. That was the purpose of that one. Literally to get me through the door, which is what a passport does.

But as to the other - my church reference - well, I'll tell you this. Once upon a time, Christians made pilgrimages, and did so in a state of poverty. The reason was to force a bit of humility upon the pilgrim, to learn what it is like to have little and depend on your own work together with the goodness of others. That's a humbling thing. When someone gives you a gift that they don't have to, and you know you are receiving it not because you're particularly smart, or strong, or anything other than a target of their goodness, it reminds you that, later, you have the same obligation to others. That continues in some cultures today, where people from all walks of life serve as religious, for a short or limited period of time.

When I tried my thru hike, I had some understanding of what it's like to be homeless, since I was. I had temporary friends, at best, and if I was short of something I needed, I depended on others. I wasn't wearing a suit and tie and, as a result, I got hassled a few times by police, told I wasn't welcome some places, and given kindnesses - you might call it trail magic - at times when I didn't have any right to expect them, whether it was a ride into a town, a beer from a man stopping by the road, or a meal and a place to stay. Most people asked for nothing in return. I learned a lot about my religion that way.

When I moved to Laguna Beach in '03, I asked my then-fiancee why there were so many hikers in town, since we weren't close to the PCT, but since I saw a lot of men in their 40s and 50s with good backpacks, sleeping bags, pads, beards and the rest of the kit walking in town. She giggled and told me they were homeless people, for whom Laguna Beach is a bit of a haven. I've spent some time talking with many of them; I never walk past one but I think, "I've been homeless in a way, myself," and I feel a greater sense of both humility and compassion. Do I do anything more? Before you ask, that's not your business. Whatever I do isn't enough. But I know a little of how they live. We're all beggars in this world; we have nothing that God hasn't given us, for no good reason beyond grace.

You don't need to agree with me. How you feel, and would act, are for you to decide. But you may not be right about me, and some others.

The Weasel

[Just a Hiker]

Jim: I'll answer your questions at two levels. They're good ones. You're wrong - at least about me - but that doesn't mean you don't have a good question.

First of all, yeah, I do. I've carried that dang Scout letter for the last 8 years, and I'll keep carrying it. I don't carry the one from my church, since the pastor that signed it isn't there, but I kept it in my wallet a long time.
Why? Well, in some ways because, as 'Tater said, they really were passports. Now, as to the Scout one, did I ask or or take anything for free? On that one, you may not realize it, but you're wrong on two levels: First, I take the Scout Law seriously, even if I don't live up to it perfectly. And "A Scout is Thrifty...He seeks to pay his own way." So I would no more camp for free at a Scout camp than would my Troop. We pay. BUT: Scout camps usually have a "Family Camp" for adults (without kids) and allow registered Scout leaders/adults to camp there. But with all the safety concerns, a bearded guy with a backpack might not get in, even with a current membership card, and rightly so. That was the purpose of that one. Literally to get me through the door, which is what a passport does.

But as to the other - my church reference - well, I'll tell you this. Once upon a time, Christians made pilgrimages, and did so in a state of poverty. The reason was to force a bit of humility upon the pilgrim, to learn what it is like to have little and depend on your own work together with the goodness of others. That's a humbling thing. When someone gives you a gift that they don't have to, and you know you are receiving it not because you're particularly smart, or strong, or anything other than a target of their goodness, it reminds you that, later, you have the same obligation to others. That continues in some cultures today, where people from all walks of life serve as religious, for a short or limited period of time.

When I tried my thru hike, I had some understanding of what it's like to be homeless, since I was. I had temporary friends, at best, and if I was short of something I needed, I depended on others. I wasn't wearing a suit and tie and, as a result, I got hassled a few times by police, told I wasn't welcome some places, and given kindnesses - you might call it trail magic - at times when I didn't have any right to expect them, whether it was a ride into a town, a beer from a man stopping by the road, or a meal and a place to stay. Most people asked for nothing in return. I learned a lot about my religion that way.

When I moved to Laguna Beach in '03, I asked my then-fiancee why there were so many hikers in town, since we weren't close to the PCT, but since I saw a lot of men in their 40s and 50s with good backpacks, sleeping bags, pads, beards and the rest of the kit walking in town. She giggled and told me they were homeless people, for whom Laguna Beach is a bit of a haven. I've spent some time talking with many of them; I never walk past one but I think, "I've been homeless in a way, myself," and I feel a greater sense of both humility and compassion. Do I do anything more? Before you ask, that's not your business. Whatever I do isn't enough. But I know a little of how they live. We're all beggars in this world; we have nothing that God hasn't given us, for no good reason beyond grace.

You don't need to agree with me. How you feel, and would act, are for you to decide. But you may not be right about me, and some others.

The Weasel

Weasel,

As I stated previously, I debated for 2 hours before I made my previous post. I debated, because usually there is more to the story than one reads in a few posts in here. To be quite honest I was really enjoying what you and Jack were posting. I was enjoying Jack Tarlin's posts because he was handing out sound advise to hikers; I was enjoying yours, because my greatest memories of hiking the Appalachian Trail are from when I was dead azz broke and didn't know where my next meal was coming from. I cut grass and dug potatoes along the way, and those were the best times I ever had on the trail, and I know I'll never get those times back. My first hike was the most humbling and wonderful experience I ever had. I don't really think it's a secret any longer that I was homeless and lived on the streets for 3 years prior to finding the Appalachian Trail, so I am painfully aware of what being in a "State of Poverty" is actually like; therefore, I was really relating to some of your earlier posts on this thread.

I understand people have many reasons to hike this trail, and many of us have different backgrounds as well, so there are things that are said and shared in here that I am not familiar with....case in point....letters of introduction. At first glance, it appeared that you were using this "letter of Introduction" as a means to gain services, which I feel is sending a bad message. At the same time, I am not aware of the religious meaning of all of this, nor am I going to trample on someone's religion or beliefs. I am also not going to tell anyone how to hike their hike either; it's just that I get a little protective when I feel that someone is handing out advice that may reflect badly on the AT.....and it's hikers. In some ways, the AT has an image problem and I don't want it to get any worse. The bottom line is....you hike your hike, and I'll hike mine! Take care,


Just Jim

[The Weasel]

Jim:

I think we are of a mind, you and I. To me, one of my most wonderful memories of the AT was going to Easter Sunrise with Gary in Hiawassee...and I'm not Baptist. But I was welcomed by not just him and his family, but so many others. Did I bring anything from the deli for the feed? No. Was I a 'stranger in a strange land'? Yes, and they fed me.

About cost for the trail, one can't 'budget' for such things. But if I'm going to take a few days off, and I want to have good fellowship and do so at low cost, as well, I'm going to hitch to a Scout camp if one is near. I'll meet people who love helping youth, and maybe be able to share some love of backpacking. If I can do that and get a shower and a laundry machine, well, I hope you don't think ill of me. The same for my religion.

We're all spongers, too. Many hostels are parts of ministries, whether that's clearly a group mission or a part of how someone lives. And they give us - especially if we ask - more than just some food or a bed. As I say: None of us have any right to anything in life; we get it all as a gift from One who owes us nothing.

Thanks for saying what you did. Say more about other things.

The Weasel

[JDCool1]

well, I did start something here, didn't I. Thanks for all of the information. I also discovered that some of you try to shade your seriousness by your sarcasm. Laugh a little, cry a little, enjoy all the trails in your life.

[Appalachian Tater]

It's all good and everybody loves everybody. Mostly.

[Frosty]

Although I agree you should do careful planning so you have more than enough money to cover all expenses on the trail and at home during a thru hike, I belive the actual cost of a thru hike is generally incorrect. For instance, the cost of food isn't technically a hiking expense, it is a cost of living. True, you still have to pay for food on the trail but I don't know of anyone who has a zero food budget off the trail. If the cost of food for your hike exceeds the cost of food when you're not hiking, then that would be a hiking expense. This is a point I negotiated with my wife, so that all of my hiking money doesn't come out of my "personal" account.

Our food bill is typically $600 a month, so I get to have $300 a month, or $10 per hiking day, for food. This comes out of the family budget. I have found that $10 a day about covers trail food and not much more, so I find that fair. I get to eat, but have to pay for restaurant meals out of my own money.

I tried the same thing with gas money, but didn't get very far. :D

[Frosty]

*As far as AYCE's not going very far, I think it depends on where you go. If
you go at lunch instead of diner, it frequently means you don't need to
worry much about dinner, which saves the cost of another meal right there.
Plus lunch is cheaper than dinner. When I was holed up sick in Franklin two years ago, I ate cereal and powdered milk in my room for breakfast, fruit from Ingle's, then tried to hit the Prime Sirloin for lunch, but later in the day than noon. By filling up, I was able to skip supper a couple times.

Eating out food costs are like ounces of gear. You can save a lot more than you might think simply by not getting anything you don't need.

[Frosty]

Regardless of denomination, you just can't turn down a potluck barring extreme circumstance. An while its a nice bonus if you can bring something, generally guests are very welcome if they just bring their appetite.People who offer food want to hear stories. If you tell some stories, and let them experience even a little of backpacking through your words, you are repaying them. If they say "Ooo" or "wow" even once, you have fulfilled your half of the deal.

This tradition pre-dates written history.

[Frosty]

My first question to you Mr. Weasel....do you walk around with a "Letter of Introduction" all the time, or just when you are hiking on the Appalachian Trail? If it's just when you are on the AT....then what entitles you to flash a letter, and then expect services from churches and Boy Scout Troops?

To me, this is setting a bad example to young hikers, and this sort of behavior is just another symptom of what is going wrong along the Appalachian Trail. I am not sure where this sense of entitlement came from, but it is hurting Everyone who hikes the AT. I see this sense of entitlement all of the time....on Whiteblaze, and on the trail. Hikers are now under the impression that they can do whatever they want just because their hiking the Appalachian Trail. It's this sense of entitlement that is endangering services along the trail, because hikers walk into a trail town and they think the locals should give them the key to the city; or in Mr. Weasels case, a place to stay and a free meal.Oh, God, now I'm going to defend The Weasel. What is this world coming to?

I think, Just Jim, that carrying a letter of introduction to members of one's church is not neessarily the same as feeling entitled to get something for nothing. I know the hiker-type you are referring to, and I agree with you whole-heartedly that this type of hiker makes life difficult for every hiker who comes behind him or her. I just don't see the church connection that way. I'm not actively involved in any church, though, so my belief could be wrong.

As far as teh BSA goes, I don't know in what capacity that The Weasel served. I was a Scout Master, and I can tell you that I have paid dues that no amount of free camping will ever repay. I was happy to do it, but it took hours and hours a week, and lots of my own money to see that my scouts got what the needed, as invariably the scouts that needed the most help were the ones whose families had the least to give. Too many single parent households out there, and too many teen-age boys being raised by a woman with no man in the house. (No offense meant, ladies, just that boys need to watch men behave so they know how to behave themselves.)

Anyway, your points are taken, I just don't think they apply to The Weasel. Excuse me, now, I have to go read my "5,000 Best Lawyer Jokes" book to put some balance in my life. Let's see, how many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb.......

[Appalachian Tater]

Too many single parent households out there, and too many teen-age boys being raised by a woman with no man in the house. (No offense meant, ladies, just that boys need to watch men behave so they know how to behave themselves.)

Frosty, not only women might find that offensive. I find it incredible that you don't think a woman can raise a boy into a man and probably do a better job than a man alone could. :eek:

More often than not, a single-parent household has a single parent because the man behaved badly. To make it worse, most of these families are in poverty because the deadbeat man doesn't pay child support. It's probably a GOOD thing that boys don't emulate this behavior.

[The Weasel]

Oh, God, now I'm going to defend The Weasel. What is this world coming to?

Helluva thing, ain't it?


***
As far as teh BSA goes, I don't know in what capacity that The Weasel served.

Scoutmaster 17 years, other leadership positions 13 years, youth member 9 years.


I was a Scout Master, and I can tell you that I have paid dues that no amount of free camping will ever repay. I was happy to do it, but it took hours and hours a week, and lots of my own money to see that my scouts got what the needed, as invariably the scouts that needed the most help were the ones whose families had the least to give.

It only takes an hour a week. The families with the least money, as Frosty also knows were the ones who gave the most in goodness. But even for the couple hours a month it takes to be a SM, there's no "free camping." Any time I've stayed at a Scout Camp as a visitor I've paid the same daily rate as any other adult visitor. A bargain, but you also get to help with Scouts. Which is worth any amount of money.


Anyway, your points are taken, I just don't think they apply to The Weasel. Excuse me, now, I have to go read my "5,000 Best Lawyer Jokes" book to put some balance in my life. Let's see, how many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb.......

None. A light bulb is the only thing a lawyer won't screw.

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

Frosty, not only women might find that offensive. I find it incredible that you don't think a woman can raise a boy into a man and probably do a better job than a man alone could. :eek:

More often than not, a single-parent household has a single parent because the man behaved badly. To make it worse, most of these families are in poverty because the deadbeat man doesn't pay child support. It's probably a GOOD thing that boys don't emulate this behavior.

Tater, there you go flyin' off the handle. Frosty really meant that one of the values of Scouting is that it provides what Scouting refers to as a "positive adult role model" for a lot of youth who can benefit from it. Scouting has women in all roles, including Scoutmaster (yes, that's the title, much as a woman might become a Master of Science). And a lot of single parent families (including ones where it is the father who is the single parent) benefit from having their son in a place where a man or a woman shows the value of honest, good living. Where the absent parent is a man who behaved badly, sometimes a Scout leader - as with a coach or others - can show that not all men behave that way.

Give him a little credit, OK? If he's been a Scoutmaster more than 15 minutes, he's done some good things for kids, and families, and has a lot more sensitivity than you might think.

See, Frosty? Not hard defending you, either!

The Weasel

[Appalachian Tater]

Tater, there you go flyin' off the handle.

I'm good at it, too!

[Johnny Swank]

I'm wading through the data from my Thru-hiker survey right now. I don't have any solid numbers just yet, but just from eyeballing things, $1.75-$2 / mile seems to be the minimum lately.

I'm presenting a thumbnail of the survey results at The Gathering. Ya'll should come out!

[Frosty]

Frosty, not only women might find that offensive. I find it incredible that you don't think a woman can raise a boy into a man and probably do a better job than a man alone could. :eek:
I didn't say single men could raise boys better than single women could. It wasn't man vs woman. It was that a vital part of a teenage boy's education is missing without a man in the house. He might guidance from an uncle or a male teacher or a male neighbor. If he is lucky, he will have a loving father AND a guiding uncle, teacher and neighbor. But not all kids are so lucky.

Single parents have a tough job, with no one at their back during tough teenage years. All of the single moms of my Cub and Boy Scouts did an outstanding job. Still, as hard as they worked, they could not show a boy how a man behave in everyday situations. My son lived with me during high school after my divorce, and it was fine. If I had had a daughter, though, I would be the first to admit that there would be many things I could NOT have shown her. It isn't the big things, the importance of good grades. It's the everyday life things, how to dress for a first date.



More often than not, a single-parent household has a single parent because the man behaved badly. To make it worse, most of these families are in poverty because the deadbeat man doesn't pay child support. It's probably a GOOD thing that boys don't emulate this behavior.Yes, that is true. Sad, but very true. All the more reason why the young man would benefit by having someone to emulate. I was always aware when our troop leaders had a discussion and/or disagreement, that the boys were hyper-aware. For some, a disagreement meant screaming, name-calling, and even violence. It is nice to take boys hiking and camping, etc, but in the long run, showing teenage boys that men can solve problems and differences peacefully and calmly may be the best lesson Scout Leaders give.

[Just a Hiker]

Oh, God, now I'm going to defend The Weasel. What is this world coming to?

I think, Just Jim, that carrying a letter of introduction to members of one's church is not neessarily the same as feeling entitled to get something for nothing. I know the hiker-type you are referring to, and I agree with you whole-heartedly that this type of hiker makes life difficult for every hiker who comes behind him or her. I just don't see the church connection that way. I'm not actively involved in any church, though, so my belief could be wrong.

As far as teh BSA goes, I don't know in what capacity that The Weasel served. I was a Scout Master, and I can tell you that I have paid dues that no amount of free camping will ever repay. I was happy to do it, but it took hours and hours a week, and lots of my own money to see that my scouts got what the needed, as invariably the scouts that needed the most help were the ones whose families had the least to give. Too many single parent households out there, and too many teen-age boys being raised by a woman with no man in the house. (No offense meant, ladies, just that boys need to watch men behave so they know how to behave themselves.)

Anyway, your points are taken, I just don't think they apply to The Weasel. Excuse me, now, I have to go read my "5,000 Best Lawyer Jokes" book to put some balance in my life. Let's see, how many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb.......


Hey Frosty,

I have to come to an understanding with Weasel on the "Letter of Introduction" issue, and the "Boy Scout Issue", so it's all good. I should have minded my own business I suppose.

Just Jim

[Marta]

I'm presenting a thumbnail of the survey results at The Gathering. Ya'll should come out!

I'm looking forward to it!

[Frosty]

Hey Frosty,

I have to come to an understanding with Weasel on the "Letter of Introduction" issue, and the "Boy Scout Issue", so it's all good. I should have minded my own business I suppose.

Just JimNah, discussion is good. You had some excellent points about hiker behavior. I don't think we can emphasize enough how poor behavior on some hikers' parts reflects on all of us.

I just didn't see The Weasel as being one of those types.

[The Weasel]

Nah, discussion is good. You had some excellent points about hiker behavior. I don't think we can emphasize enough how poor behavior on some hikers' parts reflects on all of us.

I just didn't see The Weasel as being one of those types.

Jim's post was reasonable in tone, raised good points, and I enjoyed the discussion. No one was wrong here, and there should be more like it.

TW