View Full Version : Should trail signs be removed?
Desert Lobster
09-14-2007, 11:24
Aren't white blazes enough? Just buy the maps and you should generally be able to figure where you are at any time. After a short period of time, hikers are able to estimate how far they have traveled in a period of time to an amazingly accurate degree.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-14-2007, 11:26
If only experienced hikers used the trail, this might be workable. However, inexperienced backpackers and day hikers appreciate and need the signs.
Hey, I like the signs. I normally don't keep a running pace count, and the terrain varies, so using a mile per hour estimate isn't accurate. The signs also break up the hike and give a good spot to stop, rest, talk or wait for the other hikers in the party. Keep em there.
Footslogger
09-14-2007, 11:35
Some definitely could be eliminated ...the question is - where to draw the line.
Just did a section from Rangely to Monson a few weeks ago. There were instances where the white blazes were on trees no more than 5 feet apart (SERIOUSLY) and then there were times when you didn't see a blaze for a very long time. Trail is well walked in that area so there isn't much chance of getting disoriented. Just making the point that in some areas the application/location intervals aren't very uniform or consistent.
In terms of actual wooden signs, I still find it helpful at times when I cross a road (gravel - nonpaved) in the middle of the woods to look up and see a sign indicating relative distances to key milestones ahead. Also, there are those instances where the trail does not enter/exit at the same spot in a road and requires a roadwalk. In those instance a sign is also of assistance.
The other logical place for signs is on summits.
But yeah ...sometimes signage (either too much or too little) crosses my mind when I think back to my thru.
'Slogger
modiyooch
09-14-2007, 11:45
In NJ, my data book showed 5 road crossings for a particular section, and I crossed about 9 roads. I would have like to have seen road signs especially when you need to hike out on one of those roads.
modiyooch
09-14-2007, 11:47
After a short period of time, hikers are able to estimate how far they have traveled in a period of time to an amazingly accurate degree. For those that don't carry the time (me), the above can be a bit more difficult.
warraghiyagey
09-14-2007, 11:50
Just another person who is looking for somethingto be wrong. Maybe a hike would make them feel better. . . A good long hike. Maybe then they might start a thread on how beautiful the trail is instead of nitpicking, baiting people into more negative enrgy and commentary. Nice to see that most responses have been contrary to the complaining question.
-SEEKER-
09-14-2007, 11:51
I vote for keeping the signs. In addition to their obvious pourpose they make good photo-ops.
Lone Wolf
09-14-2007, 11:52
Aren't white blazes enough? Just buy the maps and you should generally be able to figure where you are at any time. After a short period of time, hikers are able to estimate how far they have traveled in a period of time to an amazingly accurate degree.
trollin', trollin', trollin'...:D most y'all are like carp. you'll take any bait tossed at ya.
http://flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/troller.htm
Lone Wolf
09-14-2007, 12:04
http://flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/troller.htm
i'll admit to being guilty of it once or twice over the years. :)
modiyooch
09-14-2007, 12:10
Just another person who is looking for somethingto be wrong. Maybe a hike would make them feel better. . . A good long hike. Maybe then they might start a thread on how beautiful the trail is instead of nitpicking, baiting people into more negative enrgy and commentary. Nice to see that most responses have been contrary to the complaining question. I think that it is a legit question and should be able to ask it without being criticized. There are trail maintainers that want to take the signs down and have taken the trail signs down.
Given the choice, I would do the opposite... keep the signs, but remove the blazes. It's not like the AT is hard to follow. The signs only show up at trail crossings, road crossings, etc, and give decent info.
Just my $.02
Desert Lobster
09-14-2007, 12:52
Very fertile waters here!
My son and I did the Coosa Backcountry Trail in GA over Labor Day. We had a map and were lost the entire time, except where it crosses a paved hwy.
More signs, besides the wooden ones blend in.
Blazes can be handy after heavy leaf fall or snow fall.
Signs can be real handy for search & rescue, especially when they do not have trail maps handy.
I've noticed plenty of "new" maps are already several years old and may not show latest few years of trail relocation.
keep the signs, in fact i think there should be a few more signs, especially labeling gaps, i hate that feeling of yes i've reached 'low gap', few miles later well maybe now i've reached low gap, little bit later, hmmm, maybe this is low gap, then you look at the elevation in your guide book for the 'low gap' and your wondering which gap was the lowest of the gaps... blah blah blah, i think most of yall have felt that at one point in time or another?
and reguarding hikers awareness of distance, nope it may exist for some but not all, becase i for one have no concept of distaance or time.
modiyooch
09-14-2007, 13:09
My son and I did the Coosa Backcountry Trail in GA over Labor Day. We had a map and were lost the entire time, except where it crosses a paved hwy.
More signs, besides the wooden ones blend in.Not only do I not carry the time; I don't carry the map either. keep both blazes and signs, please, at least till I'm finished. I'm set in my ways.
i'll admit to being guilty of it once or twice over the years. :)
only once or twice? :eek: :D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
09-14-2007, 13:11
Very fertile waters here!Make yourself useful (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2007/04/research_trolls_wanted.php)
bulldog49
09-14-2007, 13:30
i'll admit to being guilty of it once or twice over the years. :)
Really, just once or twice? :D
Jack Tarlin
09-14-2007, 13:38
There are plenty of times I'd have missed turn-offs or shelters if there wasn't a sign.
I say keep 'em, in fact, there are places we could use more of them.
A agree totally with Jack. Keep all trail signs..maybe add a few more.
One could so easily zip right by a side trail to a shelter without signs. One could take the wrong turn at blazes. Plus.. the trails aren't just there for those who follow the white blazes all the way. They are there for everyone. And everyone, including me, started out as very inexperienced.
David
man i wish I could edit my posts.
I wrote..one could take wrong turn at blazes.. I obviously meant one could take wrong turn at trail junctons!
DavidNH
Lone Wolf
09-14-2007, 13:50
man i wish I could edit my posts.
donate to Whiteblaze and you may
Cannibal
09-14-2007, 13:53
man i wish I could edit my posts.
I wrote..one could take wrong turn at blazes.. I obviously meant one could take wrong turn at trail junctons!
DavidNH
Dunno, a friend of mine hiking in Georgia took a break next to a blaze. When he got up and started walking again; he went the wrong direction. After TWO HOURS (nobody said he was smart) he realized what he had done. Here's your sign....
Worst part of the story is the fact that he told people he did this.
Footslogger
09-14-2007, 13:57
Dunno, a friend of mine hiking in Georgia took a break next to a blaze. When he got up and started walking again; he went the wrong direction. After TWO HOURS (nobody said he was smart) he realized what he had done. Here's your sign....
Worst part of the story is the fact that he told people he did this.
====================================
Your post reminded me of a hiker who woke up at Cable Gap shelter and took off early before the rest of us were packed up and ready. We never caught up to him the next day and were curious. Turned out he walked back to the trail from the shelter and then turned south instead of north.
In that case I'm not totally certain a sign would have helped ????
'Slogger
Midway Sam
09-14-2007, 14:27
Dunno, a friend of mine hiking in Georgia took a break next to a blaze. When he got up and started walking again; he went the wrong direction. After TWO HOURS (nobody said he was smart) he realized what he had done. Here's your sign....
Worst part of the story is the fact that he told people he did this.
Ummm... was your friend in between Woody Gap and Neel Gap when this happened? Did he end up staying at Woods Hole Shelter instead of Mountain Crossings as planned?
If so, drop me a PM. I camped with him that night and would love to hear from him again. He was a nice guy to have in our group for the night.
CoyoteWhips
09-14-2007, 14:43
What are you going to get your picture taken next to?
"...and here's another shot of me standing by a white blaze, so I figure it was somewhere on the AT."
How many signs are there on the AT? The Fundy Footpath was modelled after the AT, and has the same white flashes, and a metal mileage sign every one kilometer, so 42. Then I would guess double that again, maybe, for other signs like camp sites, access roads, and scenic lookouts. So perhaps one sign every 500m on average. It's a slow trail though, so for most people that is one 3 signs per hour.
Cannibal
09-14-2007, 14:59
Ummm... was your friend in between Woody Gap and Neel Gap when this happened? Did he end up staying at Woods Hole Shelter instead of Mountain Crossings as planned?
If so, drop me a PM. I camped with him that night and would love to hear from him again. He was a nice guy to have in our group for the night.
I'll ask him. God knows I love bringing up the story; makes me laugh out loud everytime. His real name is: Keith. Don't know if he used a trail name, but I do know it was in 05'.
saimyoji
09-14-2007, 15:24
Very fertile waters here!
Admitted trolling. Shameless.
How many signs are there on the AT? The Fundy Footpath was modelled after the AT, and has the same white flashes, and a metal mileage sign every one kilometer, so 42. Then I would guess double that again, maybe, for other signs like camp sites, access roads, and scenic lookouts. So perhaps one sign every 500m on average. It's a slow trail though, so for most people that is one 3 signs per hour.
As far as I can tell, decisions about signs are made by the maintaining clubs. Some clubs love to make signs. (The Dartmouth Outing Club's signs are often quite funny.) In parts of NY, there are signs at every road crossing, telling you what road it is. Many sections have signs at the tops of mountains.
Others clubs don't make and/or put up many signs. No signs at peaks. No signs at road crossings. No clearly labeled springs. Maybe a sign towards a shelter; maybe a piece of tin sitting on the ground with an arrow pointing up a side trail.
There's a lot of variation.
It is a volunteer-based organization after all. The sign-makers and blaze painters are sometimes highly trained adults (all those CPR and chain-saw certification classes, don't you know) who have been doing this for years, and other volunteers are first-timers, teenagers, whoever.
It keeps things interesting.:D
Marta/Five-Leaf
minnesotasmith
09-14-2007, 16:16
I think that it is a legit question and should be able to ask it without being criticized. There are trail maintainers that want to take the signs down and have taken the trail signs down.
Better to take down (ban from the AT) trail "maintainers" that are committing what I consider acts of vandalism. Sort of like the AMC being reputed to have removed what normal Trail shelters in the Whites that there were a number of years ago; they should have IMO been stopped and sent packing.
BlackCloud
09-14-2007, 16:23
The signs stay.
That sounds very interesting Marta. Repetition with variation. The more decentralized and grass-roots the better I think, as long as they can all gang together and act united when they need to.
No advertising signs I presume... ???
Better to take down (ban from the AT) trail "maintainers" that are committing what I consider acts of vandalism. Sort of like the AMC being reputed to have removed what normal Trail shelters in the Whites that there were a number of years ago; they should have IMO been stopped and sent packing.
Once a fruitloop, always a fruitloop. :rolleyes:
donate to Whiteblaze and you may
Yeah, you cheap bastard. :p
Can't be all bad if he likes Robert Service.
JAK (aka yet another fruitloop ) :)
chiefdaddy
09-14-2007, 16:38
Ummm? take away what? and why? Is this a joke? why bother? They are helpful and already hunted by hillbilly rednecks to the brink.
Appalachian Tater
09-14-2007, 17:51
I think 2,167 lobsters should be nailed to trees at one-mile intervals to act as mile-lobsters. Mileage (from Springer, of course) would be spraypainted on their backs using stencils.
Appalachian Tater
09-14-2007, 17:53
Ummm? take away what? and why? Is this a joke? why bother?
Anything posted by anyone with "lobster" in their user name is a joke.
Can't be all bad if he likes Robert Service.
JAK (aka yet another fruitloop ) :)
Compared to MS, you're a fruitloop wannabe!
The Old Fhart
09-14-2007, 18:04
Minnesotasmith-"Sort of like the AMC being reputed to have removed what normal Trail shelters in the Whites that there were a number of years ago; they should have IMO been stopped and sent packing." You have a 100% inaccuracy record in all matters concerning the Whites and the AMC. The AMC hasn't "reputed" removed any shelters from the WMNF, the USFS has. A scientist would do research and get his facts straight. What do you do again?:D
I think 2,167 lobsters should be nailed to trees at one-mile intervals to act as mile-lobsters. Mileage (from Springer, of course) would be spraypainted on their backs using stencils.
Stencils or use the original blaze method - a swing of the axe?
p.s. I thought it was 2174.2 mile intervals. In other words, more healthy blazing.
What about removing signs along the highway? Wouldn't be there if there wasn't the need.
Lone Wolf
09-14-2007, 20:15
signs or no signs. didn't bother bill irwin none
I vote for signs at trailheads/roads ONLY, none at all along trail. And fewer blazes. And no shelters. rar.
modiyooch
09-14-2007, 21:34
sign, sign everywhere a sign
blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
halftime
09-14-2007, 22:08
Aren't white blazes enough?
An interesting contradiction here.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20192
I think 2,167 lobsters should be nailed to trees at one-mile intervals to act as mile-lobsters. Mileage (from Springer, of course) would be spraypainted on their backs using stencils.
so what about the southbounders?
Tennessee Viking
09-15-2007, 00:35
Gosh...
Being in the Tennessee section, signs do help but also cause problems. New opened relocations are popping up every couple weeks so blazes are a help there. But sometimes when you advertise that a the trail crosses here or some scenic area is 2 miles that way, you do attract idiots. Any summer I can find idiots walking in from Hampton or Dennis Cove to swim at Laurel Falls. These are the people that jump the cliffs, litter the landscape, and complain how far it is.
If you hike and enjoy the scenary, respect it. Pack out. Leave little or no disturbance.
warraghiyagey
09-15-2007, 04:16
Make yourself useful (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2007/04/research_trolls_wanted.php)
FD, One look at the link and you are instantly rewarded as the author of the 'queen mother of all retorts." Excellent work. Please wait at stage front as the crowd will be applauding for some time.
And for folks that feel the need to start inane threads as this. Take a walk. A long walk. On the trail. And these issues will melt from you and your questions will cease to be a blistering itch to unsuspecting readers/listeners. Surely you have something more to offer inre the Appalachian Trail. It certainly has more for you.:)
For those that don't carry the time (me), the above can be a bit more difficult.
Time is heavy. I had to give it up for my pot.
warraghiyagey
09-15-2007, 05:24
Time is heavy. I had to give it up for my pot.
Doubtful that DL has hiked long enough in one stretch to understand how these signs, pace, the trail, weather, meeting new friends, etc., interact.
:D most y'all are like carp. you'll take any bait tossed at ya.
Carp have a serious inferiority complex. If I am a carp and nobody wants to eat me I get depessed. I really want someone to eat me. Please eat me.
Doubtful that DL has hiked long enough in one stretch to understand how these signs, pace, the trail, weather, meeting new friends, etc., interact.
I think you are probably mistaken. He is just stirring.
warraghiyagey
09-15-2007, 05:29
Carp have a serious inferiority complex. If I am a carp and nobody wants to eat me I get depessed. I really want someone to eat me. Please eat me.
Hmmmm . . .up too early? Or too late?:rolleyes:
Hmmmm . . .up too early? Or too late?:rolleyes:
Middle of the afternoon for me. :sun
Very fertile waters here!
Ah ha. I see. As a "desert" Lobster you are just feeling lonely.
Gotchya. ;)
warraghiyagey
09-15-2007, 05:38
I think you are probably mistaken. He is just stirring.
Well if that is so, he needs another go on that beautiful trail.
saimyoji
09-15-2007, 07:14
Well if that is so, he needs another go on that beautiful trail.
Everyone knows lobsters don't hike. They sit in the pot and stir it up every once in a while.
Lone Wolf
09-15-2007, 07:48
side trails in the Smokys aren't blazed. Sgt. Rock pointed that out to me.
Appalachian Tater
09-15-2007, 12:39
so what about the southbounders?
If they are smart enough to go south, they should be able to do the math.
refreeman
09-16-2007, 09:30
Aren't white blazes enough? Just buy the maps and you should generally be able to figure where you are at any time. After a short period of time, hikers are able to estimate how far they have traveled in a period of time to an amazingly accurate degree.
No. White blazes are not enough.
shelterbuilder
09-16-2007, 11:42
No. White blazes are not enough.
I agree. It's similar to the idea of driving from Atlanta, Ga. to Monson, Me. with only a AAA trip-tik map. You can do it, but sometimes it's nice to know what else is around you, or how far it really is to the next watering hole! The trick is to have just enough signs, without having too many...and that's kind of like trying to please all of the people all of the time.:rolleyes:
Everyone knows lobsters don't hike. They sit in the pot and stir it up every once in a while.
Until someone turns up the heat. Then they don't seem to have much to say.
Or, it might be said, they make their final contribution in silence to those who can hike.
Desert Lobster
09-16-2007, 13:20
Just recharging the old Minnetonka motor!
You suggesting we all need to walk a mile in your moccasins? Minnetonka doesn't make moccasins for crustaceans.
I'm not biting. Pipe down and get back in the pot!
What you need is an Old Town canoe and a Johnson trolling motor. You'd better be packing a cell phone and hope they can ship fast.:rolleyes: I'm about to have me a lobster.
shelterbuilder
09-16-2007, 18:59
You suggesting we all need to walk a mile in your moccasins? Minnetonka doesn't make moccasins for crustaceans.
I'm not biting. Pipe down and get back in the pot!
What you need is an Old Town canoe and a Johnson trolling motor. You'd better be packing a cell phone and hope they can ship fast.:rolleyes: I'm about to have me a lobster.
SOG, you need to be kinder to the Desert Lobster...I hear that it's been quite an effort for him to "claw" his way out of the pot and up the ladder of success. You know, he just got his big break in show business with that spot he landed on the new "Capital One" credit card commercial ("I want a loan, I want a loan".):D :D
Jim Adams
09-16-2007, 19:08
Given the choice, I would do the opposite... keep the signs, but remove the blazes. It's not like the AT is hard to follow. The signs only show up at trail crossings, road crossings, etc, and give decent info.
Just my $.02
This is the way the PCT is marked...no blazes but signs at intersections. Due to my past AT hiking experiences, I was worried at times as to my being on the right trail because of the lack of blazes but it really was easy to hike sign to sign. OTOH, I think that the white blazes are a part of history and should never be deleted...allsigns.net just doesn't roll off the tongue like whiteblaze!:D
geek
SOG, you need to be kinder to the Desert Lobster...I hear that it's been quite an effort for him to "claw" his way out of the pot and up the ladder of success. You know, he just got his big break in show business with that spot he landed on the new "Capital One" credit card commercial ("I want a loan, I want a loan".):D :D
Yeah, right, sb! He'd better apply online and fast.
DL, you know, you could have Old Town ship that canoe to me. I'll keep it for you.
Maybe we could work something out. I'll turn down the heat a bit. Let's talk.
The Old Fhart
09-16-2007, 19:44
Jim Adams-"This is the way the PCT is marked...no blazes but signs at intersections. Due to my past AT hiking experiences, I was worried at times as to my being on the right trail because of the lack of blazes but it really was easy to hike sign to sign."This is what I was told before I did the JMT. I was told you didn't even need maps. When I got there late July in 1995 there was 10 feet of snow at 10,000 feet and there was no footpath to follow in many places. I was glad I had my map and compass because I would wander off the trail a few times a day because you couldn't tell where the trail went in the very open forests you can find out there. I knew the trip was doomed before I flew out but I had non-refundable air plane tickets that I'd bought months earlier, and they had 200% of the normal snowfall that winter and June was 15°F cooler than normal. I realize there is no way to mark trails in the Sierra where they could get over 30 feet of snow but the conditions in the east are generally far different.
The cairns above tree line in the whites have saved many a hiker and I wouldn't recommend removing them, the blazes, or the signs. A lot of hikers complain about getting screwed up in the Whites but that is because they don't read the signs, carry map/guidebook/data book. If you pay attention you may be able to follow the trail in good weather or in daylight without blazes but there are conditions where signage and blazes are critical.
I find signs to be quite nice, I like to have assurance that I know where I am.
Kirby
Lone Wolf
09-16-2007, 20:04
i like to put my buut on them and burn them
i like to put my buut on them and burn them
Just getting home from Dot's? :D
Lone Wolf
09-16-2007, 20:11
Just getting home from Dot's? :D
w t f does that mean? spent the afternoon with Sly at a music festival
The Old Fhart
09-16-2007, 20:20
Lone Wolf-"i like to put my buut on them and burn themDid you see the movie "My Cousin Vinny" where Fred Gwynne, as the judge, questions Joe Pesci's New Jersey accent when he says 'youth', and asks Pesci, "What's a yuut?":D
.....................................
earlyriser26
09-17-2007, 09:52
95% of the time you don't need signs, but 5% of the time they are very helpful. I guess the real question are signs such a big problem? Keep em and add more as long as they aren't neon or billboards.
Twofiddy
09-17-2007, 10:19
Aren't white blazes enough?
My thought on this is simple. I like the idea of replacing certain trail signs occasionally and the novelty of having the old ones avaliable for others to look at in outfitter store, my bedroom wall, or anyplace for that matter. So I think that we should keep them until they deteriorate a bit and then replace them with new ones.
Who actually owns trail signs anyhow? If you were to go out an replace your favaroite sign with another one, would that be illegal, or stealing, or anything that barny fife would chase you over?
Do you think that they would ever go into an outfitter store or resturant and charge some one with recpt of stolen property?
BTW it is much better to take the sign than it would be to cut down the tree to take home the blaze!
WalkinHome
09-17-2007, 14:30
I would suggest you make a nice new sign, toss it in a dung pile for six months, then display it wherever you wish. That makes more sense to me.
Definitely keep them. For me, they provide great psychological comfort. It's the same feeling you get when you stumble across a lean-to that you're not staying at or even resting at. It breaks up the monotony of incessant trees. Kind of like getting food served on a long, international flight; anything to keep us stimulated!
Which way do we go now???
shelterbuilder
09-17-2007, 17:52
My thought on this is simple. I like the idea of replacing certain trail signs occasionally and the novelty of having the old ones avaliable for others to look at in outfitter store, my bedroom wall, or anyplace for that matter. So I think that we should keep them until they deteriorate a bit and then replace them with new ones.
Who actually owns trail signs anyhow? If you were to go out an replace your favaroite sign with another one, would that be illegal, or stealing, or anything that barny fife would chase you over
If it's a routed wooden sign, it probably was made by - and is owned by - the maintaining club that put it there. Many clubs have their own signmakers, and some are very good with a router. If YOU are good with a router, too, and have a favorite sign that's getting worn out, ask the maintaining club if YOU could replace the old one with a new one, in exchange for keeping the old one as a memento.:D The worst they can do is say "no".
If it's a diamond-shaped metal sign, it was probably made and owned by ATC. ATC sells these, too - for folks like you who would like to "own a piece of the AT"!:banana :banana
The Weasel
09-17-2007, 18:41
While I appreciate the effort that goes behind signs and blazes, I think there are far too many of each.
Many signs could be eliminated, including at road crossings, with posting of blaze where they are necessary to prevent a mistake. But the rest simply become "trail clutter," reminding us of civilization rather than being necessary.
As for blazes, I think there are stretches where they are far too predominant. I have a recollection that the blazing concept is that you are never out of sight of a blaze, either in front or behind. That's worthwhile since much of the trail is hiked when there has been snow, but only where there's a risk that one can wander off the trail. But graded trails going along the sides of ravines and canyons are hard to miss, as are some other places. It would be nice to feel a bit more remote sometimes.
The Weasel
Here is a sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Troll1.JPG) that would be useful.
Jack Tarlin
09-17-2007, 19:20
I saw one just like this near Elizabethtown TN:
http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/images/churchsigns/under_same_management.jpg
Jack Tarlin
09-17-2007, 19:21
Hell, that link doesn't work either.
You guys'll just haveta wait for my Christmas card.....
Jack Tarlin
09-17-2007, 19:23
For the curious, the actual sign said "Under the Same Management for Over 2000 Years!"
And it WILL be my Christmas card this year!
Lion King
09-17-2007, 19:31
For the curious, the actual sign said "Under the Same Management for Over 2000 Years!"
And it WILL be my Christmas card this year!
http://www.mysticunicorn.com/graphics/ytc/5422.jpg
This guy?:D
minnesotasmith
09-18-2007, 04:09
And add an "N" or "S" to at least one blaze every quarter-mile. For that matter, I believe that there should be a chain of blazes such that in good weather, one is always visible from the last one. I saw plenty of sections during my thru last year where as much as a mile could pass between blazes. Certainly, every trail fork and road crossing needs them, just before and just after the fork and crossing.
Lone Wolf
09-18-2007, 06:11
there is no place on the trail where blazes are a mile apart
saimyoji
09-18-2007, 07:37
there is no place on the trail where blazes are a mile apart
Nah, but with all the crap he was luggin I'm sure every step felt like a mile.
shelterbuilder
09-18-2007, 07:44
And add an "N" or "S" to at least one blaze every quarter-mile. For that matter, I believe that there should be a chain of blazes such that in good weather, one is always visible from the last one. I saw plenty of sections during my thru last year where as much as a mile could pass between blazes. Certainly, every trail fork and road crossing needs them, just before and just after the fork and crossing.
The blazing standard is to be able to see the next blaze ahead and the last blaze behind when you are standing next to a blaze. (This isn't always the case, but that's the standard.) Signage is supposed to be placed "where needed", but deciding what's needed and what's not is kind of like trying to please all of the people all of the time...good luck!:rolleyes:
My favorite Trail sign;
If you with litter do disgrace
And spoil the beauty of this place
May indigestion rack your chest
And ants invade your pants and vest
Regarding blazes, I'm all for fewer where the trail is clearly defined. The JMT has no blazes. You have to rely on signs at trail junctions, your map, and cairns. A true wilderness experience.
minnesotasmith
09-18-2007, 08:29
there is no place on the trail where blazes are a mile apart
Try some of the longer recent reroutes in Maine, plus some places in the Whites. Just BC there USED to be blazes, doesn't mean there neccessarily are any now.
And add an "N" or "S" to at least one blaze every quarter-mile. For that matter, I believe that there should be a chain of blazes such that in good weather, one is always visible from the last one. I saw plenty of sections during my thru last year where as much as a mile could pass between blazes. Certainly, every trail fork and road crossing needs them, just before and just after the fork and crossing.
Let's see, one- you could get a compass, two- you could get a map, three- you could follow the beaten path.
The blazing standard is to be able to see the next blaze ahead and the last blaze behind when you are standing next to a blaze.
That standard sucks, it's overkill :mad:
Jim Adams
09-18-2007, 10:08
I traveled three days by plane, 4x4, boat, plane and again boat to get to a "trail marker" showing the way via trail to the river that we were searching for...it was a 1960's COCA COLA bottle hanging upside down on a tree branch. We were 400 miles from the next known people yet as soon as we saw the bottle (sign), it took away the feeling of "true wilderness".
The AT, JMT, and most of the PCT are not true wilderness. They are worn trails marked with signs and / or blazes.
Usually " true wilderness " is where you can easily die if: your ride is a no show, you lack commonsense, you don't have a map or compass, you have no training for wilderness, you are not near the top of the food chain, etc.
Being in the paramedic and rescue field I see these problems alot. Although most of us here on WB are fair to skilled at backpacking, camping, surviving and knowing the trails, most of the people out on these trails don't have a clue and definitely could not handle "true wilderness"....keep the signs and blazes, it makes my job WAY easier.
If you don't want signs and blazes, you probably also don't want people...just go deeper into the wilderness.
geek
That standard sucks, it's overkill :mad:
White blazes are necessary to separate the purists from the unworthy.:D
shelterbuilder
09-18-2007, 17:04
That standard sucks, it's overkill :mad:
The standard really isn't overkill when you consider the fact that most of the folks who use the AT (day hikers and short-trip people) are not as experienced in the woods as most of us. The blazing standard may not lend itself to a "true wilderness experience", but most of those folks will NEVER see true wilderness.
Besides, being called out on search and rescue all the time to look for people who get lost looking for blazes is what really sucks - it cuts into my hiking time.:D
I thought this sign was good to have on the Trail, though I remember it looking a bit different:
http://www.khoffman.net/at/images/at024.jpg
Is it still there?
there is no place on the trail where blazes are a mile apart
Try some of the longer recent reroutes in Maine, plus some places in the Whites. Just BC there USED to be blazes, doesn't mean there neccessarily are any now.
MS,
I can assure you that there is no section of the AT in the Whites, where the blazes are a mile, or more, apart.
The orange doilies you hung from your ears must have obstructed your view. :D
The Old Fhart
09-18-2007, 20:22
RickB-"I thought this sign was good to have on the Trail, though I remember it looking a bit different:......................Is it still there?"Actually there have been several incarnations of that sign because people steal it quite often.;)
2317
I really did find this sign at the local GoodWill store and had to buy it.
Appalachian Tater
09-19-2007, 00:30
Around Rausch Gap there were no blazes for miles only old blazes that had been painted over.
Bluehaus71
09-19-2007, 01:31
I think they should put up mile markers just like on the highways.....Just kidding. I only like to see trail markers at confusing junctions like water crossings and bifurcations in the trail. One thing that really irritates me is when they put a trail marker right smack at the split of a trail instead of five or ten feet down the marked trail. Not helpful at all. I'm referring to the markers and not the signs. Signs are great so long as they aren't overdone and are accurate. I try not to rely too heavily on either though since they can be vandalized and relocated by pranksters (mostly punk kids and/or hillbilly drunks.)
minnesotasmith
09-19-2007, 02:53
Let's see, one- you could get a compass, two- you could get a map, three- you could follow the beaten path.
1) I carried a compass on my entire thruhike. The AT commonly winds back and forth so much, and sufficiently unpredictably, that a compass was mostly useless for determining correct direction at a given point on the Trail. Also, rainy/foggy times are useless for finding direction from the sun or stars, and these are common on the AT.
2) I carried the appropriate ATC maps close to 95% of the Trail, only not having them when they were unavailable. I also carried Nat'l Geog. maps for the Smokies and Whites, and was glad I did so. Lastly, I occasionally carried relevant pieces of road maps, with all the areas over 40 miles from the Trail torn off and discarded.
3) If the AT was a clear, beaten path for its entire length, far fewer people would get lost on it. Unfortunately, it often braids with other unmarked trails, goes for miles on trackless boulder fields, crosses pastures with no clear path (just white blazes on posts, that you would apparently want destroyed), follows rock outcrops or shallow stream beds, etc., goes through path-hiding marshes, etc., etc. When someone can walk its entire route without using their hands once, it'll be a "clear, beaten path", but it's not there yet.
As the eloquent haiku someone (not me, though I wish I had written it) left in a register describes:
Trail comes to a fork
Virginia did not blaze it
flip a coin and pray
The blazes are needed on the AT. The people who would vandalize the Trail by removing them -- rather less so.
modiyooch
09-19-2007, 06:45
- you could follow the beaten path.
Let's see, not ALL of us start at Springer with mobs of people and hike the same beaten path. Try hiking some less travelled areas in the Spring while the concentration of hiking is in the South.
Around Rausch Gap there were no blazes for miles only old blazes that had been painted over.
When was that? Are you perhaps referring to a relocation (8 years ago or so now?) on BMECC's section trail-north of Rausch Gap to Swatara Gap, off road and private property to State and NPS lands?
shelterbuilder
09-19-2007, 16:13
Around Rausch Gap there were no blazes for miles only old blazes that had been painted over.
...maybe some of the bootleg trails that we've tried to paint out??
mweinstone
09-19-2007, 16:20
signs are good. shelters suck. chop up the shelters and make more signs.
Johnny Thunder
09-19-2007, 16:52
More of these signs would do. 'Specially those that make reference to no schnivelers.
Appalachian Tater
09-19-2007, 16:55
...maybe some of the bootleg trails that we've tried to paint out??
More like an old mining or logging road, very "constructed" in places, wide, impossible to get lost on, but with other roads coming off. All the blazes were painted over for miles. Definitely was the A.T. or else a dozen other people were in the wrong place, too.
shelterbuilder
09-19-2007, 18:19
More like an old mining or logging road, very "constructed" in places, wide, impossible to get lost on, but with other roads coming off. All the blazes were painted over for miles. Definitely was the A.T. or else a dozen other people were in the wrong place, too.
...sounds like maybe south of the shelter on the AT - an area I'm not entirely familar with. I know that, after Rausch Gap shelter was built, there was a relo in that area, but that was only maybe 1/2 mile.
Hundreds of trails in that area - you could spend weeks exploring and not see it all. An old-timer gave me a map one time, but I never have time to just tramp the trails....
superman
09-19-2007, 18:33
Not all the signs...just the ones that claim that something is .1 or .2 miles to something. I suspected that the AT folks got a real good quantity price on them so they just randomly stuck them up where ever they wanted to. Don't get your panties all bunched...it was just a theory I came up with as I hiked down and down and down to a .1 mile away water source.
shelterbuilder
09-19-2007, 18:40
Not all the signs...just the ones that claim that something is .1 or .2 miles to something. I suspected that the AT folks got a real good quantity price on them so they just randomly stuck them up where ever they wanted to. Don't get your panties all bunched...it was just a theory I came up with as I hiked down and down and down to a .1 mile away water source.
Yeah, they put all of the decimal points in the wrong place, just so we won't get upset about the distance BEFORE we start down!:D There used to be some old diamond markers around the Pinnacle in Pa. that marked (in tenths) the distance to the Pinnacle - every 1/5 mile, for MILES. Makes the miles just crawl by....
Appalachian Tater
09-19-2007, 18:46
...sounds like maybe south of the shelter on the AT - an area I'm not entirely familar with. I know that, after Rausch Gap shelter was built, there was a relo in that area, but that was only maybe 1/2 mile.
Hundreds of trails in that area - you could spend weeks exploring and not see it all. An old-timer gave me a map one time, but I never have time to just tramp the trails....
Yes, it was south of the shelter. After a while you came to understand that the trail was marked with painted-over blazes and it wasn't so worrisome.
Yes, it was south of the shelter. After a while you came to understand that the trail was marked with painted-over blazes and it wasn't so worrisome.
Hmm, now I'm really confused about where you're talking about.
The A.T. trail-south of Rausch Gap shelter is a very old carriage road grown into a footpath, that's been the A.T. since 1955 when Earl Shaffer and his buddies put it there. It's now the SATC section (in fact I'm the maintainer from Cold Spring trail to Yellow Springs hollow, i.e. from 3 mi +/- to 6 mi +/- south of Rausch Gap shelter) and was very crisply re-blazed in regulation white last year by others from SATC.
The Stony Valley railroad grade has had various marks on it over the years, including orange diamonds, and intersects the A.T. downhill of Rausch Gap shelter in the actual Rausch Gap itself. It's stone surfaced on old RR cinders and drivable by an ordinary car.
Here are a couple of old maps of this area:
http://www.satc-hike.org/ofh6.pdf
http://www.satc-hike.org/ofh7.pdf
Appalachian Tater
09-19-2007, 19:53
was very crisply re-blazed in regulation white last year by others from SATC.a
That would explain it. Must have happened later in the summer after I had already hiked through. It was obvious that the blazes had been purposefully obscured and not merely faded. Is it even possible that I hiked through after the old blazes had been obscured and before the new ones were placed?
My memory is not faulty on this and it was discussed at the shelter that evening--the shelter that had a table at standing height around a tree and a stainless steel water trough and snakes in the shelter.
Nightwalker
09-19-2007, 19:55
Not all the signs...just the ones that claim that something is .1 or .2 miles to something. I suspected that the AT folks got a real good quantity price on them so they just randomly stuck them up where ever they wanted to. Don't get your panties all bunched...it was just a theory I came up with as I hiked down and down and down to a .1 mile away water source.
How about the sign at the Hawk Mountain shelter trail entrance which tells the distance to the Gooch Gap shelter--which hasn't been there in years.
I always shake my head about that one. :-?
Lone Wolf
09-19-2007, 20:09
How about the sign at the Hawk Mountain shelter trail entrance which tells the distance to the Gooch Gap shelter--which hasn't been there in years.
I always shake my head about that one. :-?
the local "club" is too busy building new shelters
Nightwalker
09-19-2007, 20:15
the local "club" is too busy building new shelters
Well, they do a heck of a lot of work on the trail beds as well. Along with the Mt Rogers area, GA has the nicest trail that I've walked, on the AT at least.
A 30 mile section of the Foothills trail in the Jocassee Gorges has the nicest ones that I've seen anywhere. Duke Energy maintains it as a part of their agreement with the NRC for extending the lifespan of the Oconee Nuclear Project. Those trails are really, really good.
When you pass a blowdown, you don't have to worry about it. It'll be gone in a week or so when you come back again.
It's pretty amazing how ethical and zealous they are about the whole thing.
And that section has some of the most amazing footbridges that I've ever seen, including a way-cool 225 footer across the Toxaway River.
shelterbuilder
09-19-2007, 20:51
a
That would explain it. Must have happened later in the summer after I had already hiked through. It was obvious that the blazes had been purposefully obscured and not merely faded. Is it even possible that I hiked through after the old blazes had been obscured and before the new ones were placed?
My memory is not faulty on this and it was discussed at the shelter that evening--the shelter that had a table at standing height around a tree and a stainless steel water trough and snakes in the shelter.
Snakes IN the shelter??? That's got to be a first for Rausch Gap...but not impossible. The table and the water trough were constructed off-site by two members of the Lebanon Valley Hiking Club and brought in years ago. The trough comes in handy, because that spring cycles on and off on a daily basis in the summer - during the day when the trees are active, the water table drops and the spring shuts down. But sometime between 10 PM and 2 AM, the water table recovers (while the trees are "resting") and it starts back up again. Darnedest thing I've ever seen.
Appalachian Tater
09-19-2007, 21:16
That's pretty cool about the spring, I wondered about the trough and decided it was just part of the integrated design of what is a unique shelter site.
There were some counselors-in-training that came to pump water out of the trough and were there for a while because they had crappy filters. I was trying to be friendly and make conversation and asked one, "Did you know that the Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountains in the world?" They all stopped talking instantly and looked at me and one of them said, "How do you know that?" and that's when I remembered it was a Christian camp. I honestly did not mean to try to start trouble, but as is so often the case....
Lone Wolf
09-19-2007, 21:19
That's pretty cool about the spring, I wondered about the trough and decided it was just part of the integrated design of what is a unique shelter site.
There were some counselors-in-training that came to pump water out of the trough and were there for a while because they had crappy filters. I was trying to be friendly and make conversation and asked one, "Did you know that the Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountains in the world?" They all stopped talking instantly and looked at me and one of them said, "How do you know that?" and that's when I remembered it was a Christian camp. I honestly did not mean to try to start trouble, but as is so often the case....
thier faith was lacking. christians filtering water just don't cut it
thier faith was lacking. christians filtering water just don't cut it
Yup. Neither does having lightning rods on church steeples. Just plain wrong.:D
Jester2000
09-19-2007, 23:58
Many signs could be eliminated, including at road crossings, with posting of blaze where they are necessary to prevent a mistake. But the rest simply become "trail clutter," reminding us of civilization rather than being necessary. (emphasis mine)
Does the sign remind you of civilization more than the road?
Personally, I like the PA road crossing signs, as they tell you which direction is north and which is south. To someone already on the trail, that may seem unnecessary. To someone driving to the trail and getting on for a day or two, it's pretty frickin' cool.
Twofiddy
09-20-2007, 16:24
Let's see, one- you could get a compass, two- you could get a map, three- you could follow the beaten path.
Right because in the part in North Carolina when you are northbound but are hiking south that is really gonna help.
YOU DONT NEED A COMPASS TO HIKE THE AT
Jack Tarlin
09-20-2007, 16:39
YOU may not need one but it sure doesn't hurt to carry one and know how to use it, which most thru-hikers don't.
If you ever got good and lost in, say, Maine, Fiddy, you'd be singing a different tune. :-?
It's a basic wilderness skill, and one well worth knowing.
max patch
09-20-2007, 16:42
YOU DONT NEED A COMPASS TO HIKE THE AT
You don't need a seatbelt 999 times out of a 1,000 but I strap in every time. Same concept.
Jester2000
09-20-2007, 23:24
YOU may not need one but it sure doesn't hurt to carry one and know how to use it, which most thru-hikers don't.
This, of course, can also be said of condoms.
Jack Tarlin
09-20-2007, 23:27
Actually, Jester, I know lots of thru-hikers who carry those particular items.
Abd about once every three years or so, one of them actually gets used. :D
Aren't white blazes enough? Just buy the maps and you should generally be able to figure where you are at any time. After a short period of time, hikers are able to estimate how far they have traveled in a period of time to an amazingly accurate degree.
I have been grateful for the signs on occasion at night.
Also, as another poster said, the overwhelming majority of visitors to the AT are not thru-hikers. I'm grateful for having had the opportunity to access the trail in my early life, and I think part of the reason I was able to do so is that the trail is geared towards being an inclusive as opposed to exclusive experience. Signage is part of this.