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weary
09-23-2007, 11:17
Here's an interesting account about finding the original AT route in Maine.

http://www.trailspace.com/news/2007/09/19/blazing-a-good-trail-the-at-in-maine-part-one.html

Gaiter
09-23-2007, 12:07
interesting, i'm looking forward to the next part

woodsy
09-23-2007, 14:41
Good reading. What happened to .......
The AT was originally conceived by Benton MacKaye in 1921 as a network of planned wilderness communities connected by a mountain trail. the planned wilderness communities?

rafe
09-23-2007, 16:24
Are there any serious AT hikers who haven't walked a stretch of "old" trail? It's happened to me several times... on Standing Indian Mtn., near Falls Village CT, the old Sherbourne Trail (VT), and near Monson, to name a few off the top of my head. Some of these walks were intentional, some were accidental. On the Falls Village walk, I could clearly make out the painted-over blazes.

I'm also interested in the issue that Woodsy brings up. I suspect MacKaye was inspired by the AMC hut system, and my reading of his bio indicates he was a "social engineer." But if MacKaye was the dreamer, Avery was the "doer" and apparently Avery wasn't interested in that part of the dream.

The Old Fhart
09-23-2007, 16:49
You can read (or download) "An Appalachian Trail: A Project in Regional Planning (http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/mackaye.html)" by Benton MacKaye that describes his plan and ideas that formed the basis for the A.T.. Somethings obviously changed.

woodsy
09-23-2007, 17:31
Thanks TOF for that link, more interesting reading.
I pulled this out of the 1st page which gives one reason for planned wilderness communities.
Most sanitariums now established are perfectly useless to those afflicted with mental disease - the most terrible, usually, of any disease. Many of these sufferers could be cured. But not merely by "treatment." They need acres not medicine. Thousands of acres of this mountain land should be devoted to them with whole communities planned and equipped for their cure.

On another note, got on an old piece of AT going south at West Carry Pond
recently. Came back onto the new within a Quarter to Half mile . It had no markings/blazes but I just knew it would come out somewhere, lol.

warraghiyagey
09-23-2007, 17:41
Gotta love that Woodsy. He can find a trail where there isn't one. Just feels the energy.

weary
09-23-2007, 18:38
Good reading. What happened to ....... the planned wilderness communities?
Volunteers quickly emerged to build a trail. No one volunteered to build a wilderness community. Mckaye pretty much abandoned the wilderness camps portion of his idea by the end of his long life.The Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust, however, is working on McKayes vision for a realm of protected lands surrounding his wild trail.

Our long range goal calls for at least a mile of protected land on each side of the trail, thus ensuring that a sense of wildness will remain. Whether we succeed really depends on whether the hiking community wants us to. None of us can do very much. But all of us together could achieve a second miracle, at least for the Maine section of the trail. The first miracle was that McKaye's vision for a permanent continuous footpath has actually been achieved, something that few really thought possible in the late 40s and 50s as many miles of the volunteer trail succumbed the pressures of development.

Weary

woodsy
09-23-2007, 19:08
Weary,
Question about the original AT north of Lone mtn., south of Spaulding.
Is the interesection of the AT and Mt Abraham trail also where the original AT went down to Caribou Pond? I can't remember who told me this bit of info and whether or not it is true.

Roots
09-23-2007, 20:10
Ah man! You left me hanging! That's going to be good! Can't wait to read the rest!:)

The Old Fhart
09-23-2007, 20:15
Woodsy-"Question about the original AT north of Lone mtn., south of Spaulding. ...Is the interesection of the AT and Mt Abraham trail also where the original AT went down to Caribou Pond?"

Excerpts from the 1936 ME A.T. guidebook, “Bigelow Village to East Madrid Road”

This section of the trail traverses two of the finest mountains along the entire trail route. From Bigelow village…the trail ascends gradually to…Mt. Sugarloaf… Beyond the trail descends…and then crosses Spaulding Mtn. From Spaulding the trail descends to the sag at the base of Mt. Abraham…then climbs the long bare rock ridge to…a lookout tower. …From a rocky summit south of the fire tower the trail descends steeply…to the plateau at the west base of the mountain. …from the plateau between Abrahan an Farmer Mtns. The trail follows the old tote-road down to the old abandoned Barnjum Depot Camps on Perham Stream. A ¼ mile beyond, a road, passable by automobile, is followed west and south to its crossing…of the now abandoned Barnjum branch of the Sandy River and Rangley Lakes RR, app. ½ mile north of East Madrid.

This section was opened in 1933-5 by Game Warden Helon N. Taylor of Eustis Me.,…There was no prior trail to Mt. Sugarloaf and Mt. Abraham …

This point, on October 1, 1935 is the southeastern limit of the continuous marked Appalachian Trail south from Katahdin in Maine.

The 1942 Guidebook mentions there was a faint side trail 1.12 miles south of Bigelow village and RT-27 that leads 6 miles to Caribou Pond. It also mentions vistas at 7 miles south of RT-27 from the A.T. of Caribou Pond to the west. There is no indication the trail went near Caribou Pond. The trail was relocated to bypass Abraham on the side of Spaulding and went down to Orbeton Stream pretty much as it does today. I believe this was the last piece of the A.T. to be completed in 1937, but I wasn't there to verify that.

weary
09-23-2007, 20:57
Weary,
Question about the original AT north of Lone mtn., south of Spaulding.
Is the interesection of the AT and Mt Abraham trail also where the original AT went down to Caribou Pond? I can't remember who told me this bit of info and whether or not it is true.
Probably no one alive today knows for sure, but I suspect that Old Fhart has given us the best information currently available.

Weary

woodsy
09-23-2007, 21:30
I can't remember who told me this bit of info and whether or not it is true.


TOF, There is no indication the trail went near Caribou Pond.

Thanks for clearing this up....another AT myth bites the dust.

emerald
09-24-2007, 17:35
I believe the Firewarden's Trail to Bigelow Col and the blueblaze to Sugarloaf from the current A.T. formed parts of the former route, correct?

The Old Fhart
09-24-2007, 19:01
Shades of Gray-"I believe the Firewarden's Trail to Bigelow Col and the blueblaze to Sugarloaf from the current A.T. formed parts of the former route, correct?"Not quite. The A.T. headed south from Bigelow col up the West Peak then to Horn's Pond. From there the trail took a left (instead of going toward Cranberry Peak) and descended 3.3 miles to the lower end of the Firewarden's trail. The section of the old A.T. from Horn's pond to the lower end of the Firewarden's trail was named the Horns Pond trail.

I'm not sure exactly when the Horn's Pond trail was discontinued but I had used it once in summer about 1982 and once in winter about 1984 and, although it no longer existed as an official trail, it was still pretty obvious at that time. I had also hiked the Firewarden's trail to do a loop hike over the Bigelow and the Horns at the same time. The Firewarden's trail has some very steep sections.

woodsy
09-25-2007, 08:41
I'm not sure exactly when the Horn's Pond trail was discontinued but I had used it once in summer about 1982 and once in winter about 1984 and, although it no longer existed as an official trail, it was still pretty obvious at that timeThe Horn's Pond Trail is alive and well still. It junctions with The Firewarden's Trail about one mile in from Stratton Brook Pond. It originally connected with the Firewarden's trail very near the pond. I found and came down this original trail from Horn's pond a couple times. It was shorter than the relo'd trail. Old bog bridges still visible in wet areas. This was back in the mid 80's. Wonder if it could still be followed today? The original trail branched off the relo'd trail about one mile south of Horns Pond just after a stream crossing heading down.
The Horns Pond trail is the best approach to Horns Pond IMO, Blue Blaze it!

Footslogger
09-25-2007, 09:29
On our recent section hike we were told by a local about the old/original section of the AT that passed right through Stratton and up the ridge toward Horns Pond.

'Slogger

Maineiac
09-25-2007, 09:35
For those who may have attended the conference in NJ this past summer, they would have heard that the Safford Notch Trail, just East of Avery Peak, is one of the original AT sections. This was of course before they built Long Falls Dam and created Flagstaff Lake.

Maineiac:cool:

Midway Sam
09-25-2007, 09:41
Most sanitariums now established are perfectly useless to those afflicted with mental disease - the most terrible, usually, of any disease. Many of these sufferers could be cured. But not merely by "treatment." They need acres not medicine. Thousands of acres of this mountain land should be devoted to them with whole communities planned and equipped for their cure.

And since this never came to fruition, whiteblaze.net was created as a "virtual sanitarium" for those afflicted with mental disease.

Alligator
09-25-2007, 10:47
And since this never came to fruition, whiteblaze.net was created as a "virtual sanitarium" for those afflicted with mental disease.Must not post...must not post..must not post.please bring my meds...must not post...need meds...must not post...how come there's a mouse on my pull chain:confused:

weary
09-25-2007, 11:38
Thanks TOF for that link, more interesting reading.
I pulled this out of the 1st page which gives one reason for planned wilderness communities.
Most sanitariums now established are perfectly useless to those afflicted with mental disease - the most terrible, usually, of any disease. Many of these sufferers could be cured. But not merely by "treatment." They need acres not medicine. Thousands of acres of this mountain land should be devoted to them with whole communities planned and equipped for their cure.....
I believe McKaye's wife or sister had been hospitalized for mental illness. I forget the details.

BTW, there is a book that is gradually becoming a best seller through word of mouth promotion that argues that the mental health of kids is improved by contact with nature, hills, woodlands, and other wild places.

The title is "Last Child in the woods," or something like that. My copy isn't handy at the moment.

Weary

rafe
09-25-2007, 11:46
I believe McKaye's wife or sister had been hospitalized for mental illness. I forget the details.

His wife jumped off a bridge in NYC and committed suicide. It's mentioned in AWITW and in more detail in Larry Anderson's excellent bio of MacKaye.

woodsy
09-25-2007, 13:58
If I didn't have woods, mountains, trails and paddling in my backyard, I might be tempted to jump off a bridge too.
Thousands of acres of this mountain land is my stress buster

weary
09-25-2007, 14:32
If I didn't have woods, mountains, trails and paddling in my backyard, I might be tempted to jump off a bridge too.
Thousands of acres of this mountain land is my stress buster
That's why my favorite activity these days is protection of wild places, both in my town and my state. Maine is at a crossroads. Developers own most of the wild places.

My town had no protected land 45 years ago. Today it has 4,000 acres or about 27 persent of our land mass. My role in this has been pretty minor, but even my small efforts provide a great sense of pleasure as the years roll by.

If my mind is still working, (Jack, already sees signs of decline) my final thoughts are likely to be visions of a wild pond in Phippsburg and the spectacular summit ridge of Abraham.

I think it was William James who said, "The greatest use of life, is to use it for something that will live on after you are gone" or words to that effect.

James may have been wrong. And I don't know for sure whether there is a god or an after life. But it is a comfortable feeling to know that some small things I've done will be around and enjoyed by others for a while after I move on.

Weary www.matlt.org

mudhead
09-25-2007, 14:39
He may have been correct. Got a couple of young Norway Maple in case.

woodsy
09-25-2007, 15:02
Mt Abraham ridgeline (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=18861&). (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/%5Burl=http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=18861&c=563%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/7/9/1/4/100_0260) Took this picture in July 07, looking southeast from summit.
It is pretty special isn't it? Thanks for your preservation efforts!

weary
09-25-2007, 17:05
A great photo.

Do you mind if I use it in one of my newsletters?

Weary

rafe
09-25-2007, 17:09
A great photo.

Do you mind if I use it in one of my newsletters?

Weary

Say, Weary... You were going to use one of my photos [of Baldpate Summit] a while back. Did that ever happen? My request back then (which still stands) was a copy of whatever issue it was published in...

icemanat95
09-25-2007, 17:35
He may have been correct. Got a couple of young Norway Maple in case.
\
Rip 'em out and replace them with Sugar Maples. Norway Maples are an invasive species that threatens to out-compete native Sugar Maples. While there are no eradication efforts in place right now, they are listed in some states as "problem trees" and are being replaced with Sugar Maples and other native species as they die out, are damaged, etc.

If you do choose to replace your Norway Raider maples with proper native trees, be sure to inspect the roots, even if it means dissecting the root ball completely and rendering the tree effectively bare-rooted. Often potted and/or balled trees are set too deeply in the soil and the roots are wound round by limited growing space, this will eventually lead to girdling roots that kill the tree and roots that are set too deeply to take up water and oxygen. The bulk of living roots in a natural tree are in the first 6-10 inches of soil where oxygen and moisture are more plentiful.

Also avoid compacting the soils around tree roots with excessive foot traffic, machine traffic etc. This makes the soil less permeable to water and oxygen effectiovely raising the dead zone in the soil toward the surface.

mudhead
09-25-2007, 17:46
You think I'd buy a sugar maple? Dang, it's Maine. Frigging weeds!

You may be correct, but I do favor their color in fall. Shape too.

Want to buy some multi-flora rose?

emerald
09-25-2007, 17:51
For those who may have attended the conference in NJ this past summer, they would have heard that the Safford Notch Trail, just East of Avery Peak, is one of the original AT sections. This was of course before they built Long Falls Dam and created Flagstaff Lake.

Maineiac:cool:

At least portions of its present route have been relocated from the original.

woodsy
09-25-2007, 17:57
A great photo.

Do you mind if I use it in one of my newsletters?

Weary
If my photo is pleasing to you, you are welcome to use it, you deserve it!
I certainly enjoyed visiting such a remarkable vista. And I'm sure many others will in the future!:sun

weary
09-25-2007, 18:07
Not quite. The A.T. headed south from Bigelow col up the West Peak then to Horn's Pond. From there the trail took a left (instead of going toward Cranberry Peak) and descended 3.3 miles to the lower end of the Firewarden's trail. The section of the old A.T. from Horn's pond to the lower end of the Firewarden's trail was named the Horns Pond trail.

I'm not sure exactly when the Horn's Pond trail was discontinued but I had used it once in summer about 1982 and once in winter about 1984 and, although it no longer existed as an official trail, it was still pretty obvious at that time. I had also hiked the Firewarden's trail to do a loop hike over the Bigelow and the Horns at the same time. The Firewarden's trail has some very steep sections.
The Horns Pond Trail was discontinued for a year or two. I think sometime in the middle 70s, but I can't remember for sure. One of the private owners dreamed of creating a development and didn't want the AT in his way.

With the passage of the referendum which asked the state to create the Bigelow Preserve and the eventual acquisition of the land for the Preserve, the trail was reopened.

Some of the land for the Bigelow preserve was purchased from another set of developers that dreamed of creating the Aspen of the East on the mountain. The rest involved the swapping of scattered "public lots" for land on and around the mountain.

Weary

The Old Fhart
09-25-2007, 18:22
Weary-"The Horns Pond Trail was discontinued for a year or two. I think sometime in the middle 70s, but I can't remember for sure. One of the private owners dreamed of creating a development and didn't want the AT in his way."Thanks for that information. I knew that the trail hadn't been maintained for some time when I used it. It had started to revert to its natural state but was still clear enough to follow. I last used it when I was doing the New England Hundred Highest in winter and that would have been 1983-1985. I didn't know it had been reopened.

weary
09-25-2007, 20:34
Thanks for that information. I knew that the trail hadn't been maintained for some time when I used it. It had started to revert to its natural state but was still clear enough to follow. I last used it when I was doing the New England Hundred Highest in winter and that would have been 1983-1985. I didn't know it had been reopened.
I don't remember the date. But I had agreed to lead a trip for students of Hyde School, then and now, a private school in Bath, six miles up the road from my home in Phippsburg.

The school, for reasons i never figured out precisely, declared an emergency school-student meeting. We were supposed to leave at 10 a.m. The school finally released us around 3 p.m. I said lets go anyway. I vaguely remembered tonight would be near a full moon.

So we arrived at the trail head -- three hours from Bath -- a bit after dusk. We discovered all the blazes had been painted out. Being dumb, I suggested, considering that with a fullmoon, that we should go anyway.

We arrived at the shelter that late February about midnight -- about the time the moon finally peaked over the horizon. No one got hurt. But it is a hike that will forever stay in my mind.

Weary

walkin' wally
09-26-2007, 07:56
Mt Abraham ridgeline (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=18861&). (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/%5Burl=http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=18861&c=563%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/7/9/1/4/100_0260) Took this picture in July 07, looking southeast from summit.
It is pretty special isn't it? Thanks for your preservation efforts!

Great picture Woodsy. Certainly a place worth saving.
Like Weary says there are many other places alongside the AT that are too.

woodsy
09-26-2007, 08:10
The Horns Pond Trail was discontinued for a year or two.I didn't come on scene until the mid to late 80's in the Bigelows and wasn't aware that the Horn's Pond Trail was originally the AT. And better still, that I actually walked the abandoned AT without knowing it, hence:The original trail branched off the relo'd trail about one mile south of Horns Pond just after a stream crossing heading down.
The joys of scouting!
Thanks to TOF for sharing this info.
I'm still curious though, when did the Crockers become part of the AT?

The Old Fhart
09-26-2007, 09:34
Woodsy-"I'm still curious though, when did the Crockers become part of the AT?"
Both the 1964 and 1969 ME guidebooks comment on the impact the ski development (started on Sugarloaf in 1955) was having on the trail. The 1975 guidebook says:
" In 1971-74, the M.A.T.C. constructed a major relocation of the A.T. away from the mass recreation ski development on Sugarloaf. Although the mountain, Maine's second highest, is now reached by a 1/2 mile side trail, two other 4,000 foot peaks have been added to the route of the trail. The fourteen mile relocation left the old trail at Horns Pond...,went further west down the Bigelow Range, crosses a valley and Highway 27, climbed North and South Crocker, crossed another valley and connected to the original trail 1/2 south of Sugarloaf. The relocation substantially improves the Trail route and avoids conflict with the development around the north side of Sugarloaf."

woodsy
09-26-2007, 17:01
So the Crocker to Sugarloaf's backside trail is fairly new relatively speaking.
I'm no AT scholar but am finding the history of the trail interesting. Those old guidebooks are coming in handy, thanks

rafe
09-26-2007, 17:07
I'm no AT scholar but am finding the history of the trail interesting.

Yeah, me too. Like the Cumberland road walk that is no more. Or the history of the trail over Pond Mountain. ;)

woodsy
09-26-2007, 18:45
******************

JoeHiker
09-27-2007, 12:24
Anyone know when the "Old Job" trail in Vermont changed from being on the main trail to being a blue blaze? And why?

ki0eh
09-27-2007, 13:04
Like the Cumberland road walk that is no more.

The roads are still there... and a few of the power poles still have white blazes too.

Marta
09-27-2007, 13:20
"Just follow the white blazes" is sometimes harder than it sounds. I had several navigational misadventures where I got onto a previous incarnation of the path and found old white blazes.

One notable one was near the summit of the mountain south of Bear Mtn. Bridge. The current trail goes along a road, but I saw what looked like a well-used path that cut straight across on the other side of the road. I didn't see any white blazes there, so I scouted around for a while and found one in a big crack between some boulders. I could tell, however, that it was not a path in current use because the leaves weren't trampled. Eventually I figured it out.

An even weirder section was just north of Troutville. There's a section where there are many, many white blazes that have been overpainted with brown paint. But every once in a while, there's a regular white blaze. I think the ratio is about 3:1, brown to white. I never did find out what that was all about.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2007, 13:24
An even weirder section was just north of Troutville. There's a section where there are many, many white blazes that have been overpainted with brown paint. But every once in a while, there's a regular white blaze. I think the ratio is about 3:1, brown to white. I never did find out what that was all about.

i bet an ovrzealous maintainer was painting white blazes too much, too often then another maintainer with better sense came along and browned out the un-needed blazes.

rafe
09-27-2007, 13:24
Blazing is one of my pet peeves with the trail. Seems like it's either too much or too little. Most problems occur where the trail meets civilization... crosses (or follows) a road, parking lot, meadow, etc. Or when the trail goes through fields of rocks & boulders. It takes some practice to learn how to "read" the blazes... Not insurmountable, but sometimes aggravating, at least to this hiker. I like to know that I'm on the right trail...

The Old Fhart
09-27-2007, 13:37
JoeHiker-"Anyone know when the "Old Job" trail in Vermont changed from being on the main trail to being a blue blaze? And why?"
The following is from the New Hampshire/Vermont A.T. guidebook from 1963 and described the Old Job relo.

NOTE: A major relocation on this section of the Long Trail is planned for 1963. Beginning at the north end of Griffith Lake, the new route will bear northward along the ridge to the summit of Baker Peak …, where there are fine views…. After continuing along the ridge beyond Baker Peak, The new route will drop down to the new suspension bridge over Big Branch, descend for a distance along Big Branch, then ascend to the Danby-Langrove Road at the bridge over Big Branch.

Blissful
09-27-2007, 14:22
I haven't read this thread all the way through but we hiked an abandoned route down Katahdin. Saw these white blazes and thought it was the way until we met up with the current trail. And it cut off a really precarious rock face that I nearly fell off of on the way up. We had to get through some rocks that were like mini lemon squeezers.

And I saw a white blaze on a telephone pole on the road that leads to Monson. Other hikers were talking about it. Saw trail signs there too in town which makes me wonder if the trail went through there at one time.

Blissful
09-27-2007, 14:25
i bet an ovrzealous maintainer was painting white blazes too much, too often then another maintainer with better sense came along and browned out the un-needed blazes.

It took us a bit of time when we were in PA and saw the white paint splotches to mark the boundary of game lands. Did a double take until I distinguished them from the AT. But in some areas it was a little tricky.

rafe
09-27-2007, 14:25
And I saw a white blaze on a telephone pole on the road that leads to Monson. Other hikers were talking about it. Saw trail signs there too in town which makes me wonder if the trail went through there at one time.

It absolutely did (go thru Monson, that is.) And that's the trail I took. One of the more mysterious re-routes, IMO. I mean, I'd guess nearly 100% of all thru-hikers stop in Monson, right? NOBO and SOBO. Both.

Peaks
09-27-2007, 16:02
It absolutely did (go thru Monson, that is.) And that's the trail I took. One of the more mysterious re-routes, IMO. I mean, I'd guess nearly 100% of all thru-hikers stop in Monson, right? NOBO and SOBO. Both.

There are a few towns near the trail where it makes good sense to retain the old trail through town. Monson is one, because every thru-hiker stops there for resupply. Likewise, Gorham, after completing the Whites and before the Mahoosics.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2007, 16:07
In order to get government funding for the AT, the trail has to be rerouted off all roads where possible.

emerald
09-27-2007, 16:49
In order to get government funding for the AT, the trail has to be rerouted off all roads where possible.

I don't know whether that's so or not. I'm inclined to contribute, but can only say so much now.

I believe the short version is that money was made available and it was used to ensure that a viable route would be available for the future. While in some cases, the route may not seem to make sense now to thru-hikers, the time to acquire a route was when it could be acquired.

It should be understood the majority of A.T. hikers are not thru-hikers, however one chooses to define the term. The time may come when it would be unsafe to walk the road into Monson. Also, a road walk does not offer much of a recreational opportunity for a local resident.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2007, 16:52
I don't know whether that's so or not.

it is so. call the ATC and ask why the trail is re-routed off roads.

warren doyle
09-27-2007, 17:14
The trail use to go through Monson and many residents really liked that, especially Keith Shaw.
It was ironic that shortly after a MATC celebration in Monson the trail was rerouted.
Most long distance hikers wondered why. I asked Dave Field about it at a ATC Board of Managers meeting.
According to him, the route was in exchange for having some protected land on Lake Hebron. There was local politics involved. Also, there was some concern of some future development along the road walk north of Monson. We requested that the new trail bypassing Monson not be opened until there was this future development. But, again, there were local politics involved and our request was denied.
And now, more than a decade later, there is still no large-scale development along the road northbound out of Monson and a bad taste in the mouths of all those Monson residents that were proud that the trail went through their town. I know Keith Shaw Sr. was quite disappointed.
So much for Benton MacKaye's vision of 'trailside communities'.
AT hikers lost several small towns during the 'roadaphobia' days of trail relocation. I find it ironic that the trail gained two towns though - Boiling Springs and Harpers Ferry, both of which have a strong ATC presence.

emerald
09-27-2007, 18:58
call the ATC and ask why the trail is re-routed off roads.

I wouldn't bother ATC with the question you've suggested I ask. I'd be far more interested in NPS's rational, but I think I have a pretty good idea what they were thinking and I'm in general agreement with their having obtained off-road routes wherever possible.

ki0eh
09-27-2007, 19:20
i bet an ovrzealous maintainer was painting white blazes too much, too often then another maintainer with better sense came along and browned out the un-needed blazes.

Boy, that's REALLY a pet peeve of mine, if somebody obscures more than one blaze in a row I'm usually backtracking looking for a reroute. If the interblaze interval is too short for someone's liking, just don't refresh the ones in the middle.

Or, cut the trees down. ;)

shelterbuilder
09-27-2007, 19:45
In order to get government funding for the AT, the trail has to be rerouted off all roads where possible.

I'm not a government official - I don't even play one on TV - but I will try to give a bit of historical perspective. No details, just an overview....

It is my understanding that, at one time, most of the trail WAS in the woods, using a combination of old logging/charcoal hauling roads, footpaths, and where necessary, rural dirt roads. Where the route went over private land, many times the access was agreed upon between the landowner and the maintainers with just a handshake.

Over time, those rural dirt roads became paved, and many of them started to see heavy traffic. At the same time, some of those private landowners became annoyed with having their crops trampled, their gates left open for livestock to wander, and their land littered. When they resinded permission for the use of their land, the trail had to be relocated ONTO roads to get around the closed parts of the trail (I still have some old maps that show the trail cutting unto the same road several times to go around angry landowners).

But the trail is supposed to be a footpath, not a roadway; once the NPS stepped in, they started buying up land to protect the footpath and permanently relocate it in the woods where possible.

That's the short version....

rafe
09-27-2007, 20:03
Only one problem with this history, shelterbuilder. Most hikers I know don't litter and are respectful of the trail. Your (hi)story implies otherwise.

Speaking of trampled crops. I recall a short piece of trail in Connecticut where the trail goes 'round three sides of a cornfield -- in order to avoid about fifty feet of country road. A real head-scratcher. (Lots of things went screwy on that hike... that was just the tip of the iceberg.)

But I'm OK with the status quo. Folks still have a choice, sort of. Except when the blazing's vague and you end up walking the "old" trail by accident... :D.

shelterbuilder
09-27-2007, 20:17
Only one problem with this history, shelterbuilder. Most hikers I know don't litter and are respectful of the trail. Your (hi)story implies otherwise.

Speaking of trampled crops. I recall a short piece of trail in Connecticut where the trail goes 'round three sides of a cornfield -- in order to avoid about fifty feet of country road. A real head-scratcher. (Lots of things went screwy on that hike... that was just the tip of the iceberg.)

But I'm OK with the status quo. Folks still have a choice, sort of. Except when the blazing's vague and you end up walking the "old" trail by accident... :D.

Most hikers that I know are respectful, too...but THAT part of the story goes back into the 60's and 70's (before my time of working with the trail club), when there WAS a problem like that. (Not everywhere, thankfully.) Heck, I know of one shelter near me where kids would cut the locks off of the state gates and go driving back "just for the heck of it" (70's - 80's!) Seems to be a mind-set in some places....

By the way, these days, some of that litter ends up down the hole of the privies - and that's first-hand knowledge!:(

rafe
09-27-2007, 20:27
Heck, I know of one shelter near me where kids would cut the locks off of the state gates and go driving back "just for the heck of it" (70's - 80's!) Seems to be a mind-set in some places....

Exactly. The suckiest shelters (Dick's Dome notwithstanding) are those with easy access to roads and trailheads. No suprise there. Kids will be kids... :rolleyes:

Peaks
09-28-2007, 08:12
In order to get government funding for the AT, the trail has to be rerouted off all roads where possible.

then why hasn't the trail through Damascus be reouted off Main Street and onto the Creeper Trail through town?

Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 08:15
damn good question.

ki0eh
09-28-2007, 08:59
You could get the A.T. off a street and onto a pedestrian bridge losing a couple of blocks of roadwalk in Duncannon. But then the Doyle would be a block off the trail. :)

weary
09-28-2007, 10:16
Congress decreed in the late 60s that the trail be made permanent. The action was in response to the growing development along the footpath. The location of the permanent foot path was pretty much left up to the local maintaining clubs.

Maine tried for years to negotiate with the paper companies that owned most of the old route through Maine. When that was mostly unsuccessful we called in the National Park Service. MATC's policy was to get the trail off all the roads and onto the ridge llines as envisioned by Benton MacKaye in the 1920s. As a result two thirds of the trail in Maine was relocated -- including the road walk through Monson.

The National Park Service generally purchased a thousand foot corridor, which was plenty at the time, since all the surrounding forest was commercial forest dedicated to supplying raw materials for local mills. Unfortunately, the commercial forest now has all been sold to private land development companies. These companies are required for a time to continue to provide forest products, but the future is here. Plum Creek has already proposed a 400,000 acre development on half it's Maine holdings north of the trail.

Plum Creek lands, however, also abut the narrow trail corridor in the High Peaks REgion around the trail between Saddleback and Bigelow. It is certain that soon these lands will also be proposed for development. It is this growing threat to a wild trail through Maine that we created the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust.

Weary www.matlt.org

Heater
09-28-2007, 10:45
If I didn't have woods, mountains, trails and paddling in my backyard, I might be tempted to jump off a bridge too.
Thousands of acres of this mountain land is my stress buster

I jumped off a bridge yesterday. Hell... everyone else was doing it so I said to myself, "Why not"?

It was fun.

All three times.

Heater
09-28-2007, 10:47
I jumped off a bridge yesterday. Hell... everyone else was doing it so I said to myself, "Why not"?

It was fun.

All three times.

So yeah, Mom. I jumped off of a bridge 'cause everyone else was doing it. :cool:

JoeHiker
09-28-2007, 13:23
The following is from the New Hampshire/Vermont A.T. guidebook from 1963 and described the Old Job relo.


Thanks for the info OF

woodsy
09-30-2007, 11:19
My recent over-nighter and descent on Bigelow led me to the old abandoned AT (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1416.jpg)on Horn's Pond Trail. It had been about 15 years since i last hiked it.
Some of the white paint on the rocks (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1417.jpg) and trees could still be found parts of the way.
It was early afternoon and being a bushwhacker from my early days i decided to go for it! There were three girls coming down the blue blaze just behind me and they just missed seeing me bare assed as I changed out of my high mountain wear into shorts. Wouldn't want to get caught with my pants down....might make WB in a bad way.
Here is a little of what i was up against in finding my way. Brown paint (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1419-1.jpg)over white on some trees.
Also white blazes (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1421.jpg) on leaf covered rocks.
After a while the trail got overgrown (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1423.jpg)
And some of it washed out (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1420.jpg)
About a half mile into this approx. 2 mile abandoned trail things got a little sketchy (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1422.jpg)
but was able to continue to find more of this (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1424.jpg)
about 1 mile into it.
And this was the end of following the abandoned AT. This middle section had been logged many years ago and thick fir had come in and obliterated the trail. Broke out the compass and continued on a bearing of about 245 deg. through path of least resistance. Oh yeah baby, bushwhacking:cool:

About a half hour and 3/4 mile later, i came back onto the trail purely by accident? and followed it out about another 1000' where i hit the firewardens trail. Here's looking back into the bramble. (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/woodsy2007/100_1350.jpg)
The path less traveled, no sign of any other hikers in there:rolleyes:, not even a footprint.
To end this, another interesting observation was that the three girls hiking behind me on the blue blaze were now about 75 yds. ahead of me.
On the Abandoned AT with:
Woodsy

mudhead
09-30-2007, 12:10
I liked bramble the best. Deep dark woods...

SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 12:17
then why hasn't the trail through Damascus be reouted off Main Street and onto the Creeper Trail through town?


damn good question.
So purists can go to the hostel, the outfitter, Cowboys, and Dots without having to retrace their steps.

Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 13:56
woodsy, that was pretty neat, thanks for the mini-journal!

Kirby
09-30-2007, 15:09
That was a nice non-fiction story Woodsy, thanks a lot! Oddly enough, I am heading to the bigelows this coming weekend, should be fun.

Kirby

woodsy
09-30-2007, 18:19
Thanks be to WB for being here and allowing me to air the section of abandoned AT and weary for starting the thread, I just did the footwork/photography, and enjoyed it. Got to use my brandy new compass too. Had to retire the old one.

woodsy

rickb
10-05-2007, 19:25
AT hikers lost several small towns during the 'roadaphobia' days of trail relocation. I find it ironic that the trail gained two towns though - Boiling Springs and Harpers Ferry, both of which have a strong ATC presence.Interesting.

Harpers Ferry used to be a blue blaze.

Does seem odd that they would rerout the trail to go through a town....

shelterbuilder
10-05-2007, 19:35
Exactly. The suckiest shelters (Dick's Dome notwithstanding) are those with easy access to roads and trailheads. No suprise there. Kids will be kids... :rolleyes:

This one's for Terrapin and anyone else who cares to answer. I'm curious: your thoughts on Dick's Dome (in detail). I've worked with that particular type of structure, and I know the problems associated with the geometry. What don't you like about it?