View Full Version : To kill or not to kill

Former Admin
09-03-2002, 20:45
What do you think about mice in shelters, how do you feel about people that bring traps to shelter?

Hammock Hanger
09-10-2002, 06:55
I personally feel weather they belong there or not they are there and do supply owls and snakes with a source of food. I do not see the need for us a hikers to go hunting. Killing the mice to me is sadistic and just unnecessary. (IMHO) I came across a shelter this year that had 6 dead mice neatly laid out on the lof in front of it. WHat's with that? Tropies from the night before... In all my years hiking I've only had my stuff chewed on once and that was not at a shelter. Six babies bon in my shorts pocket and a chewed up pack towel I forgot to hang up. If you hang your food and stow your gear properly the only annoyance is a mouse that may run over your sleeping bag, head, hand... Not that big a deal. Not to mention is seems to be part of the trail culture at this point. HH

09-10-2002, 16:07
I dont think hikers have any reason to kill any animal along the trail, they have more right to be there than we do. although the mice have taken advantage of the shelters and would not be so numerous, or atleast not in such a small area if the shelter was not there they are still "part" of the ecosystem and preditors and other animals have come to in some way relly on this population of mice, even if only in a small way. The mice wont usualy bother you too much, and as long as yoru carful with how you hang your food, and other smelly things they should leave your stuff alone as well.

09-11-2002, 08:39
I say trap them live, take them to the pet store to feed the snakes.

That should make everyone happy.......

09-12-2002, 12:02
Along the same lines as whether or not to kill the mice, should come a general respect for the wildlife I think. We were at one shelter in the Shenandoahs where a large group of Boy Scouts were high-fiving and congratulating each other on the decapitation and smooshing of several copperheads in the area that were simply minding their own business, sunning themsleves on some logs that were a pretty decent distance from the shelter itself. If an animal is threatening you and you need to defend yourself, that's one thing, but to purposefully seek out and destroy mice or snakes or anything else that is simlpy going about it's existence seems to be somethign else? This incident made us so upset that we hiked on so as not to spend the night with such people....

01-05-2003, 03:00
Why are people afraid of field mice? Buncha sissies!

01-05-2003, 04:35
I never killed any mice myself but it doesn't bother me whenever someone else does the job. It would be hypocritical of me to criticize them when I killed my fair share of mosquitoes, deer flies, noseeums, spiders, ticks, etc along the way.

01-05-2003, 13:29
I think it's important to have a reverance for all life...with the exception of mosquitoes and ticks maybe.

01-05-2003, 13:39
I place killing mosquitoes and ticks in the Self Defence category!

01-05-2003, 15:23
Do baby animals count?

Lone Wolf
01-05-2003, 15:27
Kill ALL gay baby whales!

01-06-2003, 12:22
I will take credit for the six dead mice outside the shelter this summer. Yes they were indeed trophies! Like a cat, I lined them up in a row outside of the shelter. Now, I would normally try to put them on a rock or a log so that the next visitor to the shelter could dispose of them with ease. But my feelings on mice haven't changed since the third day I left Springer: They harbor disease and are foul and disgusting. They prevent me from getting a good night sleep and there is nothing more wretched waking up with a pile of mouse turds near your nose.

Most of the people I ran into appreciated the mouse traps in the shelters. I was always courteous and asked them if it was a problem. If so, I wouldn't set them up.

01-06-2003, 13:27
when we build a shelter and then leave food crumbs around to feed them and cause mice "population explosion" then I consider it our duty to kill a few mice and help bring balance to the eco-system surounding the shelter...if not the mice would have an unfair advantage caused by our intrusion...and the owls and snakes would be drwan to the shelter putting themselves in danger and disrupting thier natural hunting abilites...when hiker populations drop after the busy spring season these predator animals that have become dependent on the unusally high rodent population...will then suffer a food crisis...

the same phenomena as happens with bear...during the early season when the bears are comng out and natural food sourcers are fewer..bears smell food and come around the shelter...a few folks give them a little food and then the bear comes to expect it and becomes more aggressive..then you have a dependent bear...a bear had to be dystroyed near the spence field shelter late last spring because of this type of thing..so don't feed the bears...It's tough nobody want to be the person who runs the bear offf while it all cute and playfulbut the best thing tht you can do for a bear is to scare it off quickly..if not the end result is death for the bear...

the same as with exploding white tail deer populations...with so few of thier native predators left..(not any really) white tail deer are suffering from over-popualtion..in the smokies there are places..Gregory bald comes to mind...(heading north on th At turn left at doe knob and about 3 miles ...good unmarked spring and ranger camp located near the gregory ridge trail..one of the largest flame azaelias near spring...blooms mid-june) the place is over run by a deer herd which defintly needs culled...where are mountian lions when you need them.....we need to allow some culling of this herd in the park to prevent overgrazing and habitat destruction ...we have taken away thier predator and we need to make amends.

So YES kill the Mice!!!

Lone Wolf
01-06-2003, 13:38
I'll sign up to whack and stack a buch of Bambis! Kill em and grill em!

01-06-2003, 13:58
all right lone wolf I'll talk to HQ and see if I can get you set up...

It really is becoming a problem in a lot of areas ...we have no natural predators left and these deer are over browsing areas and they start to look awful ...this dear up on Gregory Bald back in june of 99 was very aggressive.. as I was making some cranberry stuffing to go with my wild tyme turkey..had to throw a rock at the SOB..to drive it away...

also there is a psychotic deer that lives in beech gap( not on the AT but 5miles down the Balsam mtn trail in the smokies...you take a right just north of the Tricorner knob shelter)...the SOB charges me everytime I go through there..could you get him too??

thanks smokymtnsteve

Lone Wolf
01-06-2003, 14:10
Oh boy! Backstrap. I could be the official Bambi hitman. In the Shenandoahs too! Then I'll go to Jersey and weed out a bunch of them bears that the PETA idiots want to save. I'm a PETA member. (People Eating Tasty Animals)

01-06-2003, 21:25
Eat what you kill. Applies to mice as well.

01-06-2003, 21:42
HA HA! Desite being herbavores, vegetarians DO NOT count as game!

01-13-2003, 16:49
My personal take on the issue:

I never tried to kill a mouse in the shelters, but I am all for others doing so if they want to.

I don't put mice in the same category as bobcats and moose; I do put them in the same category as wood ticks, mosquitoes and black flies.

To me, a mouse in a shelter isn't in its natural environment, so therefore it wouldn't be hurting nature's balance by killing a few.

The do damage lots of stuff, they do eat lots of food, they do make a mess, and they do commonly run across people's face. They carry disease, too. For these reasons, I applaud anyone who wants to impose the death penalty on mice in shelters.

Blue Jay
01-14-2003, 09:12
Wow, I knew people were afraid of bears and would actually carry a heavy gun for nothing. Then they started to be afraid of mice and ooh the horror of a dirty shelter. But now they are afraid of DEER. Soon the scary bunny rabbits and chipmonks will be running wild. You all could stay home under your beds, but no the dust bunnies will get you there.

01-14-2003, 09:28
... made me eat whatever i killed when i was growing up on the farm. which explains why i don't fish for carp and suckers and why i dont shoot ground hogs or pigeons anymore. mice? forget it. the thought makes me lose my appetite.

01-14-2003, 09:45
with deer ALL of thier natural predators are gone and the deer are suffering form a population explosion...they are degrading and over browsing thier habitat..we NEED to harvest some deer ..cull thier herds..for thier OWN good...deer cause my more damage and destroy more property than bear ever have..

Lone Wolf
01-14-2003, 09:50
Harvest. I love that word. Big bloody, lucious backstraps!Ummm. Death to Bambi!

01-14-2003, 09:58
A: yes it is now a requirement to cull the deer herds, but mostly because a lot of the usefull grazing land is full of pop-up houses.
B: If only Freud were here to analyze Lone Wolf's insatiable meat cravings.:-?

01-14-2003, 10:01
Maybe to Curb the explosion of Deer in the GSMNP we should let out Lions and Tigers (to go with the Bears) so that the deer would have more preditors?

Hee HEE hee

Lone Wolf
01-14-2003, 10:02
I've been hangin out on Ted Nugent's website too long.

01-14-2003, 10:06
I hate to admit I agree with most of Ted's food advice, but his blowing up keyboards is going too far!

01-15-2003, 12:10
aye yes Mountian lions ...now theres a deer predator..lions used to be in the mtns ..and we need them back...bears really don't prey or hunt deer.

lions and tigers and bears..Are you a friend of dorothys??

Oh My! lions and tigers and bears!

01-16-2003, 17:08
Speak for yourself guys, but I have eaten every mouse that I killed.

01-16-2003, 17:41
Originally posted by ganj
Speak for yourself guys, but I have eaten every mouse that I killed.

Now, would that be raw, stir fried, sauted, or otherwise?

01-17-2003, 02:12
Raw suits me just fine. However I am rather ashamed to admit that the pregnant ones taste better.

02-05-2003, 01:40
get rid of the shelters and you get rid of the mice..
and hanta is a bad way to die

02-05-2003, 10:09
on deer and mountains and predators: have a look at Aldo Leopold's short peice: Thinking Like a Mountain... It can be found at:

http://www.eco-action.org/dt/thinking.html. Actually, here it is (it seems to be in public domain so I hope I'm not violating copyright). The peice is an essay found in the book: A Sand County Almanac...

A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. Every living thing (and perhaps many a dead one as well) pays heed to that call. To the deer it is a reminder of the way of all flesh, to the pine a forecast of midnight scuffles and of blood upon the snow, to the coyote a promise of gleanings to come, to the cowman a threat of red ink at the bank, to the hunter a challenge of fang against bullet. Yet behind these obvious and immediate hopes and fears there lies a deeper meaning, known only to the mountain itself. Only the mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf.

Those unable to decipher the hidden meaning know nevertheless that it is there, for it is felt in all wolf country, and distinguishes that country from all other land. It tingles in the spine of all who hear wolves by night, or who scan their tracks by day. Even without sight or sound of wolf, it is implicit in a hundred small events: the midnight whinny of a pack horse, the rattle of rolling rocks, the bound of a fleeing deer, the way shadows lie under the spruces. Only the ineducable tyro can fail to sense the presence or absence of wolves, or the fact that mountains have a secret opinion about them.

My own conviction on this score dates from the day I saw a wolf die. We were eating lunch on a high rimrock, at the foot of which a turbulent river elbowed its way. We saw what we thought was a doe fording the torrent, her breast awash in white water. When she climbed the bank toward us and shook out her tail, we realized our error: it was a wolf. A half-dozen others, evidently grown pups, sprang from the willows and all joined in a welcoming melee of wagging tails and playful maulings. What was literally a pile of wolves writhed and tumbled in the center of an open flat at the foot of our rimrock.

In those days we had never heard of passing up a chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy: how to aim a steep downhill shot is always confusing. When our rifles were empty, the old wolf was down, and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable slide-rocks.

We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.

Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers.

I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.

We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men.

Lone Wolf
02-05-2003, 10:28
Huh? Mice are vermin. Kill em. Have y'all read Ted Nugent's new cookbook "Kill It and Grill It"? Some damn good flesh recipes in it.

02-05-2003, 13:05
I have about as much respect for Ted Nugent as I do for PETA. That is to say, none. Both of 'em are wacko extremists. He's a lousy musician as well. Cat Scratch Fever? Come on.

Wanna hunt? Great. Eat what you kill, handle yourself respectfully, and stay outta my face.

Anyone wanna talk about the AT?

Lone Wolf
02-05-2003, 13:10
A bit touchy are we JED? I'm a PETA member. People Eating Tasty Animals. Just ignore the posts you don't like. No need to get pissy. Btw, Ted's other book "God, Guns, & Rock'N'Roll" is a good read too.

02-05-2003, 13:45
Right on TNJED

02-05-2003, 13:51
LW, just adding another flavor to the dialogue. Sort of like a kind of BBQ sauce you've never tried. Pissy? Not me Brother. It takes all kinds in this world in which we live. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

You fish? How about some good fishing spots in Maine? Ya gotta know a few.

Lone Wolf
02-05-2003, 14:05
Sabbath Day pond, Pierce pond, Kennebec river, Mountain View pond, Jo-Mary lake, Nahmakanta lake, Rainbow lake, Penobscot river plus many other smaller streams.

02-05-2003, 16:07
I'm in trouble now Lone Wolf...when my husband sees your post he's going to want to get fishing licences for our 100 mile wilderness trip. I'd better ask now...what's the official LNT practice for gutting fish???? What about brookies on some of the steams that cross the trail???? I'll be packing the cornmeal. Recommended flies for end of July???
How long will the squeeze butter last for in late July???
I'm really wondering about the LNT practices and gutting fish. I'm not too crazy about hauling out fish guts and the smell in my pack, leakage etc.

02-05-2003, 18:30
From the Leave No Trace publication for the Northeast Mountains:

in remote and little used areas, place them (fish and hunting waste) away from trails, campsites, and water. In high use areas or if your're just out for the day, consider packing fish entrails out for disposal at home.

Fish viscera tossed in lakes and streams offten wash up on shore, so this practice is recommended only in areas when it is important to cover odors that might attract bears.

02-05-2003, 19:04
Thanks Peaks. I appreciate the info...I really did not want to carry out a possible weeks worth of fish guts!!!!!
YUCK...I don't think Keith Shaw would want to give us a ride back to our car!!!

02-05-2003, 23:23
I read Ted Nugents last outdoor letter, It seems he's going from "Return to Nature" to "Buy my Products". Very sad. But what's an aging rock star to do? He's a great musician and a good song writer when he chooses to be, but he's to full of himself.

02-09-2003, 22:51
I saw mice on the shelter floors or the dirt just outside and let them go. I felt that if I stored my equipment and food properly they would not bother me ,and they didnt. But in any other world DEAD MEAT