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Trail Dog
09-27-2007, 22:13
Its been a while since i have posted or visited white blaze and was very glad to see a section for hiking with dogs since that is something my wife and I are currently looking into.

The problem is we have 3 dogs, a German short haired pointer who is fixated on birds and flies and catching them, a German Sheppard who loves people TOO much and a Jack Russel Terrier who i fear might be too small to take on the trail.

Any one have any advice on:

1) how to train my pointer NOT to chase flying objects
2) how to keep my German Sheppard from being TOO friendly
and
3) is a small breed like a Jack Russel really suitable for the trail?

I understand all the training and work needed to bring a dog on the trail but those three issues are seeming to be hard to figure out.

Thanks

Jack Tarlin
09-27-2007, 22:19
Can't help you with the first two; you might want to think about professional dog training. It can be expensive but it's worth it. Dogs that chase after animals tend to get lost often, and over-friendly dogs can be a problem, too.

As to your third, I've met several folks who thru-hiked with Russells. They're tough, scrappy, and very smart. He should do OK, just keep him close.

And because of the stumpy little leg issue, there are places on the Trail where you'll have to give him a hand by picking him up, setting him on ledges, etc. But as to whether or not you can hike with a dog that small, sure you can.

Best of luck to you.

aaroniguana
09-27-2007, 22:26
If you get to thinking you're a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else's dog around. ~Will Rogers

Tin Man
09-27-2007, 22:30
Well trained dogs that stay well away (let's say shaking distance away when wet) from other hikers, water sources, shelters, tents, hammocks, packs, food and any other personal space are tolerable. Dogs that don't "behave" or that bark, howl, sniff, hump, etc. are not very well received. And don't forget to clean up after the beasties. Follow these rules, otherwise, hikers are not very welcoming of dogs out on the trail. Also, think of the health of the dog - many get injured easily - paws usually take a beating for starters.

Appalachian Tater
09-27-2007, 22:33
Answers:
1. Keep it on a leash.
2. Keep it on a leash.
3. Keep it in one of these:


http://www.toughtraveler.com/images/dogperch3.jpg

If you let it out, put it on a leash.

Remember, terriers are bred to chase small animals. Pointers are bred to have a special relationshiop with birds. There are small animals and birds on the trail.

Also, don't plan to stay in any shelters or many of the hostels along the trail. That's going to be some little travelling circus.

Trail Dog
09-28-2007, 01:07
good info and at most a weeks hike is all we would do with all three dogs.

the only question left.. should i bring the cat?

superman
09-28-2007, 06:43
I'm a dog guy but I have a couple problems with your plan. First It is just too difficult to be in control of multiple dogs. Second is that you have dogs that will want to go after game which makes them even more difficult to control. It is not an easy matter to bring a dog to the AT successfully. When I re-hiked the Springer to Neels Gap this last fall there was a young couple with two dogs on leashes. The dogs were not trained for the trail and none of them were having a good time. I would encourage you to re-think your plan.

Appalachian Tater
09-28-2007, 07:23
good info and at most a weeks hike is all we would do with all three dogs.

the only question left.. should i bring the cat?

Of course. It can ride on the pig.

http://www.animalwritings.com/images/tom-cat-rides-dj-pig.jpg

Just keep it in a harness and on a leash, and don't let the terrier chase it.

The Old Fhart
09-28-2007, 07:32
I say bring all your animals, heck, it's been done before... :banana
2347(double click to enlarge)

Gray Blazer
09-28-2007, 07:56
Post some pics of your dogs in your gallery.

Adam B
09-28-2007, 09:19
Traildog- The size of the jack russel is less relevant then your other concerns with your dogs. I have known many jacks that make excellent trail dogs. You know your dogs best please trust your instincts.

In terms of train the pointer not to hunt birds. Start doing basic leash training. This means that you should tie the dog to your waist and say NOTHING. Then walk pay no attention to the dog just walk. Do not stop unless you intend to even if you are dragging the dog behind you. When you are at the point that he listens and watches only you take him to a pet store that sells birds and do all his training again, everything from sit, down, stay, off, come to walking nicely. Use treats to reward only when his attention is on you and not the birds. Do the leash training whenever you are around your dogs. If his mind goes to the birds then immediately start basic training i.e. sit, down, stand and shake a paw until he is entirely focused on you. Once you can do this in front of the birds at the pet store take this training on the road and find other places birds hang out.

The shepherd's problem is easier. Do not allow him to say hi to anyone without a command to do so. Do the same leash training as above but you want to expose and train around people. Anytime he sees someone he wants to say hi to, tell him to sit and stay. Talk to the person and if they want a hello, give your dog a command to release from the stay and say hi. I literally use the command "go say hi", then and only then allow the dog to approach and sit at the persons feet to get attention. When it is over say "heel" and bring the dog to your side. If your dog approaches without consent correct and return to your side to remain sitting. Ask the person to turn their back on the dog if that happens. Don't try to say hi with everyone. Make people ask before petting. You must control the timing, place and amount of all attention.

Try to remember that birds for your pointer and people for your shepherd are both strong rewards. So end your training session by commanding your pointer to approach the cage and say hi while remaining calm and then leave as you indicate. The shepherd's training should end with someone petting him while he remains under control. Try seeing if your friends who own birds would let you train around their bird. Try having parties at home where the shepherd is tied to you and gets hundreds of chances to sit and stay for attention. Re-evaluate after a few weeks and see if the behaviour has gotten better. Best of luck and always correct the bad and reward the good.

I have nothing to say about cats, I train dogs. Though I love the photo of the pig and cat, feels a little like a scarlets web moment. I would not recommend the idea of carrying the dogs unless they were ill, in which case get them off the trail and to the vet. Carrying a dog in your arms or backpack increases the danger of aggression because the dog is trapped when people and animals approach it. If you think leash aggression is bad just wait until you see aggression when held in place. Dogs are much more secure on their own four paws then in your arms.

Adam

Spirit Walker
09-28-2007, 11:21
Leave the dogs (and cat) at home. Hiking with one dog is hard enough. The hike becomes about the dog - what their needs are, what trouble they are in, how they are dealing with heat, thirst, wet, sore paws, ticks, wildlife and other hikers, etc. If you want to enjoy your AT hike, you don't want to have to spend all your time dealing with the dog's issues. It is hard enough to take care of your own.

With three animals, chances are that mid-hike at least one would need to go home. I've heard of dogs that just sat down and refused to walk another step. Forcing them to keep going can become abusive. Do you really want to have to deal with that, midway?

If your dogs are not experienced climbers, are you prepared to pick up and carry your dogs, one at a time, up the rock scrambles in New England? When we went through Mahoosic Notch, we could hear the howls of a dogehiked with someone who had to carry his Chesapeake Bay Retriever over the rocks in New York. It wasn't easy.

superman
09-28-2007, 12:11
Trail Dog,

Adam gives the best dog training advice that I've heard. I would add that you might have mixed training results. Not all your dogs may reach the level of training you hope for. I encourage everyone who wants to thru hike with a dog to take a long test hike near their home to assure that it will work. The repetition of the daily routine can help finish the training or help you conclude that one or more of the dogs isn't suited or ready for a thru hike. My dog Winter is retired from hiking now but she made hiking look easy. Some dogs are just easier than others on the trail and off.

chief
09-28-2007, 16:08
Superman, your Winter was without a doubt the coolest and best trail dog I ever met.

tha
09-28-2007, 16:27
Leave the dogs (and cat) at home. Hiking with one dog is hard enough. The hike becomes about the dog - what their needs are, what trouble they are in, how they are dealing with heat, thirst, wet, sore paws, ticks, wildlife and other hikers, etc. If you want to enjoy your AT hike, you don't want to have to spend all your time dealing with the dog's issues. It is hard enough to take care of your own.

With three animals, chances are that mid-hike at least one would need to go home. I've heard of dogs that just sat down and refused to walk another step. Forcing them to keep going can become abusive. Do you really want to have to deal with that, midway?

If your dogs are not experienced climbers, are you prepared to pick up and carry your dogs, one at a time, up the rock scrambles in New England? When we went through Mahoosic Notch, we could hear the howls of a
dogehiked with someone who had to carry his Chesapeake Bay Retriever over the rocks in New York. It wasn't easy.

Spirit, you nailed my thoughts. Amen.

Lilred
09-28-2007, 17:06
Trail Dog,
With all due respect, are you insane?? I can just see it know, the pointer goes after a bird at the same time the russell sees a chipmunk, and another hiker approaches sending the shepherd spastic. Oh ya, you're gonna have a really good hike.......Pick one and put all your energy into making that one a great trail dog. Personally, I'd pick the Russell Terrier. He'll never run out of energy and you can carry him relatively easily if the need should arise. One dog is hard enough if you're doing it right, three is pure masochism.

Lilred
09-28-2007, 17:06
know = now

Smile
09-28-2007, 23:49
I'm with Spiritwalker, Tha, LilRed. :)

Plus, how big of a tent are you carrying to accomodate the poochi?

Socrates
09-29-2007, 00:27
Yeah, I have a 7 month Great Dane and was thinking about bringing her next year, but changed my mind. They can have health issues with joints and such, the weight of her carrying her own food up, down, and over wouldn't be healthy, and the shipping cost of the specialty food she eats, added to the pain of picking it up at different points... Indeed she's a smart, excellent, well trained dog and I wish I could take her with me, but my parents have agreed to keep her for me while I'm gone next year...

Wise Old Owl
09-29-2007, 01:26
I agree with Adam's advice, I would like to add something helpful.

1. Find a local park where other dog folks go to the woods, somthing with a well marked public loop. At first take the one alone, that is too freindly. Tye to the waist or very short leash and put yourself in control. Force the dog to ignore others and reward each pass at first with a tiny treat, such as Goldfish or Cheese curls. & a verbal Good boy or Girl. After a few days ask permission on other dog owners to "visit" and reward for good behavior. I also did somthing that would surprise other dog owners, I asked permission on someone to restrain their pit bull "the dog would bark & bite" & allowed a bad visit to teach my dog that not all dogs would be nice. After 4 weeks of 3 walks a week Rugby gets it! I am starting to see a polite trail dog. We just finished a 5 miler in 1 hour 20 minutes and he loved it.


2. Pull the dogs apart and train each one on the loop individually with short hard leash (Not spring loaded at first) then put two together and walk them down the same loop over again, continue to do one on one and then as a group as they build confidence. in the group setting you need to bring someone with you to walk between in case they get to distracted. All dogs are trained to walk on the left of you and if they strain to the right they have to be told off. It is important they stay to the left side as when they get back into a group all hell doesn't break loose, and you find yourself tangled.

3. Have you thought of dog training video's rented from your local library? it really rallied me to do better with my dogs!

Good Luck,

Mark

shelterbuilder
09-29-2007, 23:01
Trail Dog,
With all due respect, are you insane?? I can just see it know, the pointer goes after a bird at the same time the russell sees a chipmunk, and another hiker approaches sending the shepherd spastic. Oh ya, you're gonna have a really good hike.......Pick one and put all your energy into making that one a great trail dog. Personally, I'd pick the Russell Terrier. He'll never run out of energy and you can carry him relatively easily if the need should arise. One dog is hard enough if you're doing it right, three is pure masochism.

I agree with Lilred - pick ONE dog and work with that one to turn it into a great trail dog. If you take more than one, the chances increase exponentially that there will be an "incident" that you didn't anticipate and can't handle. When my son was younger, we often hiked with 2 dogs (who each had a different personality), and we were constantly switching dogs back and forth between us to suit the terrain (one was a constant puller). If I had had both dogs attached to me, and they had seen a chipmunk, they would have had enough power to pull ME down the trail at 10 MPH!:eek:

Wise Old Owl
09-29-2007, 23:50
Shelterbuilder,

Yep My rescue was a puller as well, I didn't like it or lets say it bothered me. After watching a couple of Dog Wisperer series, I put the dog on a very short lead and put the dog into a large crowd after several trial walks. He did exceptionally well and is not a puller as much and I think in a few more months this will fix itself. I handle several dogs at the same time to teach the newbies to watch the well trail trained dogs and I don't run into this issue - oh the Teacher dog is a Jack Russell.

If you don't want to bother with training I ran into this wonderful couple selling a new product, its -

www.wackywalker.com (http://www.wackywalker.com) I recommend it. The dogs feel the resistance increase and know when not to tug. Well worth the investment. Check it out.

frieden
09-30-2007, 09:59
Adam, thank you for your post. It was excellent!

I found some good tips on pulling from the Monks of New Skeet (sp?) books. Ed and I trained on a public (paved) trail, for the most part. At first, he was scared of the bike riders, and if he even thought about approaching someone, he got a low, stern "leave it"! After 15 miles, he didn't care who else was on the trail. The second time out, he was so excited about hiking, he focused completely on the trail, and I never once had to reprimand him - until we were almost home, and he shoved his face into some horse pooh. That was fun. Note: carry a wet washcloth in a ziptop bag!

We haven't hiked much lately, and are both overweight and out of shape, so it takes a couple of miles to get in "the zone", but he still loves it. If you can go on a 15-20 mile hike with your dog (take lots of very small water breaks), and the next day you pull out his backpack and he gets so excited he almost pees on the floor, then you've got a trail dog.

I can see taking two trained dogs on the trail, but if you are going to attempt 3, you'd better be serious on your training efforts. You would have to train one at a time, then all together, with all the scenarios. Whew! Good luck, and I hope we can help you here.

I always keep Ed on a leash. Just when I think I have the chasing thing under control........a leaf will fly by........and there he goes! It isn't like he looks both ways, before crossing the street either. He is a herding breed, but it comes back to insufficient training. I've seen countless Mals under complete control, so I know it is bad trainer, not bad dog (anyone having '80s movie flashback?)

I have the too happy dog issue every day, and it isn't bad dog, it is bad people. Unfortunately, Ed had more than one trainer, so he thinks that any human can release him. Note, he is a service dog, so he has to be able to take commands from other people, like a paramedic or police officer, if I'm non-responsive, so I have to rely on other people's good sense and respect. I have a big sign on his vest: "Working Dog Do Not Pet". Do other people respect that? Nooooooo. Then, poor Ed doesn't understand why he's getting snapped at. We had started training on this issue last year, when we worked in the bookstore. When someone tried to pet him, I wanted him to back away, and sit down........and to keep doing that, until they stopped, or I stopped them. I left my job to be a full-time grandma, and we haven't been back into a work environment, until the past couple of weeks. He had started to get it before, so hopefully he will pick it back up. The trick is getting someone to work with you. However, in my experience, hikers ask before they pet your dog. It may just be out of fear, instead of respect, but I'll take it! If you can get past the people burden, you're golden. The dog will learn it fast.

shelterbuilder
09-30-2007, 19:29
Shelterbuilder,

Yep My rescue was a puller as well, I didn't like it or lets say it bothered me. After watching a couple of Dog Wisperer series, I put the dog on a very short lead and put the dog into a large crowd after several trial walks. He did exceptionally well and is not a puller as much and I think in a few more months this will fix itself. I handle several dogs at the same time to teach the newbies to watch the well trail trained dogs and I don't run into this issue - oh the Teacher dog is a Jack Russell.

If you don't want to bother with training I ran into this wonderful couple selling a new product, its -

www.wackywalker.com (http://www.wackywalker.com) I recommend it. The dogs feel the resistance increase and know when not to tug. Well worth the investment. Check it out.

For normal folks and their dogs, the wackywalker might work out. My dogs are sled dogs, and they need to keep pulling when we are mushing, so I can't go that route. I have to train them to pull, then I have to train them NOT to pull, but with a smart dog, it's not too hard. The setting is different, the equipment is different, and they seem to know the difference.

Sounds like you train your dogs much the same way that I train mine - train one dog really, really well, then use that dog to train the others. That's what we do with sled dogs and new dogs on the team. Once they have a basic grasp of the directional commands, the repetition with the other dogs in the team setting seems to do the trick...most of the time.

I have philosophical problems with taking multiple dogs into a setting where unexpected problems could jepardize the dogs...or me. When I'm mushing, I have some back-up in terms of other mushers nearby, extra equipment on the sled, etc. Backpacking with multiple dogs, you're kind of out there by yourself with a minimal amount of extra equipment. But I guess that's just me!:D

superman
10-01-2007, 08:06
Superman, your Winter was without a doubt the coolest and best trail dog I ever met.
Thanks Chief,
I appreciate your comment. I'd like to take credit for that but Winter just made it look easy. She's 11 now and is retired from hiking. She's still a great dog and we walk on the rail/trail across from the house every day. Her pack hangs on a chair in the dining room next to her bed. If anyone touches the pack she's ready to go hike.

Adam B
10-01-2007, 11:21
About the only thing that I want to add is in relation to exposing your dog to an aggressive dog. I have read Marks post a few times and I am unsure how he proceeded but you don't need to teach a dog that not all dogs are friendly and this may actually cause an overly friendly dog to become fearful and aggressive. It is much better to teach obedience around friendly and out of control dog. Perhaps Mark can PM me or post and explain what he means but in the mean time training is meant to be positive and enabling, it is meant to build the confidence of the dog never to make them fearful or unsure.