View Full Version : Dan Bruce Farewell Party
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 00:16
Is there any information about the "Farewell Party" for Dan Bruce that his website indicates is for October 15? Where/when/what etc? Is anyone going to it?
The Weasel
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 07:57
www.trailplace.com/farewell/ty/thankyou.html
i sent a $1000 check
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 08:52
Did he cash it?
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 09:00
no. he has it up for sale for $2000
Skidsteer
09-28-2007, 09:02
no. he has it up for sale for $2000
Now that's freakin' funny right there. :D
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 09:02
Ohhh, I better send him my check then.
dixicritter
09-28-2007, 09:03
Dadgumit y'all gonna make me move this thread.... LMAO
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 09:05
I gotta say I got hooked right into playing the straight man for LWolf on that one without knowing it. But that was the funniest thing I have heard in at least two days. I busted a gut on it.
60,000 hours of volunteer work, eh? Hmm. Most Americans work 2,000 hours a year at full time jobs. WF was still in "thru-hike-every-year" mode until the early '90s.
So WF gave 30 years of full-time labor to the A.T. -- in a span of 15 years -- in addition to $450K of "his own" cash? Just wonderin', you know.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 09:20
I think it is all how you look at it. He considers "his money" everything he got in book sales and donations. That is his right. It also includes any other money he had from any other source.
But "providing services" is an ambigous term that means making a house payment in Hot Springs (for The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies), feeding the staff of "The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies", keeping The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies in clothes, travel expenses for the staff of The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies, entertainment expenses for The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies, overhead costs for The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies, and printing costs for the Thru-Hiker Handbook, and any other miscelaneous expenses to keep The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies open and the staff happy.
As to hours, well if he didn't spend 20 hours a day in front of his computer monitoring every post to his site(s) he may have been able to get out and do something else.
More than 65,000 hours in 25 years - well that includes hiking time I am sure. And it includes an average of about 7 hours a day for 365 days for the last 25 years.
My friend, you actually took the time to figure all that out! I'm impressed.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 09:29
It only took a few seconds. From here on out I am creating "The Center for Hiker Sniveling Prevention and Hiker Integrity" I am accepting donations and plan to publish a book on how to pay for the services you use on the trail as well as set up a program to help people quit sniveling about things that are within their own control.
I plan to donate all my money henceforth to this as a trail service and plan to contribute more than 8760 hours a year to this project as a service to the trail community. I will be accepting pre orders on my $25 book and PROMISE to have it out before the start of the next hiker season.
My friend, you actually took the time to figure all that out! I'm impressed.
That explains why WB slowed down....all that number crunching.... :-?
no. he has it up for sale for $2000
That was funy... :D
Shane! Come Back!
09-28-2007, 09:36
I am creating "The Center for Hiker Sniveling Prevention and Hiker Integrity" I am accepting donations...
My $1,000 donation is in the mail.
camojack
09-28-2007, 09:37
www.trailplace.com/farewell/ty/thankyou.html (http://www.trailplace.com/farewell/ty/thankyou.html)
i sent a $1000 check
I'm sure. NOT!!! :cool:
Gray Blazer
09-28-2007, 09:37
Who's wingfoot? Hermes?
The Old Fhart
09-28-2007, 09:40
Austexs-"That was funy... :D
...almost as funny as this line from the farewell party blurb. (emphasis mine)
"Millions of hikers have benefited from Wingfoot's work for them over the years."
"Millions of hikers have benefited from Wingfoot's work for them over the years."
Strangely, that claim may be true. OTOH, just as true to replace "Wingfoot" with the name of any other volunteer, volunteer organization, or anyone who's contributed, over the years, time or cash to ATC or any of its many member groups. David Startzell makes a "similar" claim in this month's AT Journeys, but with a critical difference: he refers to it as "our work."
You know, I'm grateful for the man's contributions. But as always, in awe of his monumental ego.
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 10:36
Still hoping for someone to answer the question: Does anyone know where/when etc this "party" is being held? Or is it "vaporware"?
TW
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 10:38
the link i posted says it was yesterday. maybe it was so crowded that another party will be held next month. get your tickets at Stubhub.com
Creek Dancer
09-28-2007, 10:40
The link says the party was September 27, so I guess we're off hook. Phew!
The link says the party was September 27, so I guess we're off hook. Phew!
But on the trailplace homepage, it sez October 15. And in neither place does it say where. :-?
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 10:43
The link says the party was September 27, so I guess we're off hook. Phew!
When I posted this thread initially it said the party was in mid October, I was certain of that.
TW
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 10:43
But on the trailplace homepage, it sez October 15. And in neither place does it say where. :-?
in his freakin' mind. who the frig would actually go to such a fiasco? weasel?
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 10:46
Don't call - private party
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 10:48
Today (Friday, 1045am EST) trailplace page says party is October 15.
TW
Still hoping for someone to answer the question: Does anyone know where/when etc this "party" is being held? Or is it "vaporware"?
It is being held at the ALDHA HQ but you must be a member to attend.
Still hoping for someone to answer the question: Does anyone know where/when etc this "party" is being held? Or is it "vaporware"?
It is being held at the ALDHA HQ but you must be a member to attend.
Juuuuust kidding.
Juuuuust kidding.
I suspect not everyone got the joke... ;)
from Trailplace:
Home pages says 10/15 and thank you page says 9/27. Maybe those are start and end dates?
Well wishes and thank-you notes may be sent to:
Wingfoot Farewell Party
1800 Brandy Woods Trail SE
Conyers, GA 30013
Sounds like the party is in Conyers. Just show up and start setting up camp like at Trail Days. Who can bring the White Blaze booth? Maybe we can have a dunking booth, pie throwing contest, and parade around the house and down the street.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 10:56
I was planning on actually doing something for the trail community that week - trail maintenance.
I suspect not everyone got the joke... ;)
Never know around here... :rolleyes:
Better safe than sooory.... :D
Wanderingson
09-28-2007, 10:58
...almost as funny as this line from the farewell party blurb. (emphasis mine)
Still hoping for someone to answer the question: Does anyone know where/when etc this "party" is being held? Or is it "vaporware"?
TW
"Millions of hikers have benefited from Wingfoot's work for them over the years."
Russ,
I have just been informed by an inside source at the US Postal Service that Dan has mailed out his invitations. They regret that these invitations may not make it to the MILLIONS of invitees in time for the party.
Typically the USPS hires temparary people to handle expected surges in mail volume (Christmas time), but they were caught completely off guard with this rapid surge of mail coming out of the Atlanta regional distribution hub.
I'll be looking for mine sometime around Christmas.
max patch
09-28-2007, 10:58
in his freakin' mind. who the frig would actually go to such a fiasco? weasel?
yeah, he want to go tap tap tap on dans front door and give him *one last chance* to open the door.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 11:01
Don't Call - priavte party
I made a typo it is (number deleted)
The folks at the 769 number are gonna love you. :D
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 11:06
They will get over it.
Gee, if it wasn't for the colon oscapy ........... I'd be filling out the applications required before attending rights are granted.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 11:23
I called him. It is a personal private party - we are not invited, nice guy though.
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 11:26
I called him. It is a personal party - we are not invited, nice guy though.
must be for Center for AT Studies staff only
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 11:27
Well according to him - it is for family and close personal friends. The reason the date was moved was because some couldn't make it on the origial date.
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 12:34
I was planning on actually doing something for the trail community that week - trail maintenance.
Well, you don't think you could improve the quality of the trail by some things you could do at his party?
TW
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 12:36
Well according to him - it is for family and close personal friends. The reason the date was moved was because some couldn't make it on the origial date.
I see. The "trail community" is good enough to send contributions, but not to attend. Yes. I understand things better now.
How nice.*
TW
*Those who know this punchline to a particular joke may, if they wish, share the thought.
Gray Blazer
09-28-2007, 12:41
I see. The "trail community" is good enough to send contributions, but not to attend. Yes. I understand things better now.
How nice.*
TW
*Those who know this punchline to a particular joke may, if they wish, share the thought.
"Write your name on the back of a $20 bill and send it to the Appalachian Shameless Commerce"
The party is only for boys...
Panzer
Johnny Thunder
09-28-2007, 12:53
Wait. If it was a private party then why was it posted on the internets?
Didn't Trail Place have PM's?
If it's only close personal friends and family then why is it a "going away party"?
Where's he going if not to be nearer to his friends and family?
If it burns so bad why do I keep scratching?
Help, Wingfoot, help!
cannonball
09-28-2007, 13:20
The party has been deleted and the host are permanately banned as it is in disagreement with our sensabilities.:rolleyes:
The Weasel
09-28-2007, 13:57
The party is still shown on the Site. I'm not sure if Cannonball meant the "deleted" was part of his joke or not.
TW
Maybe he could not find a venue big enough for the millions of people, so he decided to narrow it down to his biggest supporters (which I bet you can be counted on two hands) and throw it at his house. I have respect for Wingfoot, but these farewell gifts are rediculous.
The one and only,
Kirby
aaroniguana
09-28-2007, 17:06
One would assume that all hikers of a mature age (regardless of their profession) would have a sense of humor. But then one would assume that ostriches could fly simply because they are birds and they have wings.
cannonball
09-28-2007, 17:07
The party is still shown on the Site. I'm not sure if Cannonball meant the "deleted" was part of his joke or not.
TW
"Deleted" and "Banned" were my attempts at keeping with the Trailplace.com theme.;)
BTW, I had to bail out of my sec hike last summer. Should I be expecting gifts or something?
Appalachian Tater
09-28-2007, 17:35
If it was a private party then why was it posted on the internets?
That is pretty dumb.
max patch
09-28-2007, 17:42
"Deleted" and "Banned" were my attempts at keeping with the Trailplace.com theme.;)
Truth be told, more posts have been deleted on this site than were ever deleted on Trailplace. (Trailplace has banned more members.)
Just an observation; I pretty much agree with the decisions to delete the posts that were made by mods of both sites.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 17:57
I'll have to take your word for it Max since I haven't been a regular tehre is years.
What I noticed over there was a tendency for posts to go away without any hullabaloo because often they were gone before anyone noticed them and the poster that made them was gone with them sometimes too. Here there is often an empt post left and time for a public debate on the deletion of them in the first place. So I imagine when something is deleted here, you know it. When something was deleted there it was like invasion of the body snatchers at times.
The other end of that is people here get to push limits and often try it. At WFs site you got to where you knew most subjects or things that you better not cross even if you didn't agree with them.
Just an observation; I pretty much agree with the decisions to delete the posts that were made by mods of both sites.
Are you serious?
To give one simple example... WF had a policy of deleting any post that mentioned ALDHA. What possible rationale can there be for doing that? I mean, other than from WF's own, selfish POV?
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 17:59
Or the word Journal LOL.
Consider the possibility than when WF closes his web site he might just join this one.:-?
Panzer
Skidsteer
09-28-2007, 19:42
Consider the possibility than when WF closes his web site he might just join this one.:-?
Panzer
Eh, big deal. Everybody is welcome.
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 19:46
Sure he is welcome, until he starts sniveling about how this site is run or tries to tell me how we should run it. I know some other folks that found that out.
Skidsteer
09-28-2007, 19:54
Sure he is welcome, until he starts sniveling about how this site is run or tries to tell me how we should run it. I know some other folks that found that out.
That's when the fun starts. ;)
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 20:03
Sure, for the observers LOL.
I just have a hard time abiding people that take advantage of our good nature and push us around - then snivel about it when we push back. I reckon I am experiencing a little anger issue since I got back LOL.
I reckon I am experiencing a little anger issue since I got back LOL.
I imagine that will let up a bit when you get to walkin'.
If it doesn't at first, you can walk further.:D
SGT Rock
09-28-2007, 21:44
Thanks Marta, that is one good reason for me to go in 128 days. I reckon Earl Schaffer found that as part of his reason to get away from folks for a while too.
Sure he is welcome, until he starts sniveling about how this site is run or tries to tell me how we should run it. I know some other folks that found that out.
I think that there are already some worse than him here now.
Panzer
Lone Wolf
09-28-2007, 22:35
Truth be told, more posts have been deleted on this site than were ever deleted on Trailplace. (Trailplace has banned more members.)
Just an observation; I pretty much agree with the decisions to delete the posts that were made by mods of both sites.
and most of the ******* posts were ****ing mine *******.
Why does one advertise his own personal private party on the web?
Why does one advertise his own personal private party on the web?
I thought Trailplace was his own "personal private party on the web" all these years. :-?
Thanks Marta, that is one good reason for me to go in 128 days. I reckon Earl Schaffer found that as part of his reason to get away from folks for a while too.
Of course after the hike, you have to get over post-Hike disorder.
The only way to get over PHD is to start planning another hike...
Any way you look at it, you're screwed.
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 06:27
I think that there are already some worse than him here now.
Panzer
I agree - but most of them don't have a following of mind numb robot zombies. One of them sort of does, but not to WFs level.
and most of the ******* posts were ****ing mine *******.
And you are now deleting your own posts ;)
Of course after the hike, you have to get over post-Hike disorder.
The only way to get over PHD is to start planning another hike...
Any way you look at it, you're screwed.
I am actually hoping for that.
I agree - but most of them don't have a following of mind numb robot zombies. One of them sort of does, but not to WFs level.
~
Wow, the folks that came over from Trailplace.com must be flattered by your warm welcome.
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 06:39
I came over from TrailPlace at one time - I don't think everyone coming from there are mind numb zombies - I know for a fact not everyone that was there followed him to a T. But, there are some that if you point out an obvious inconsistency (BIG ones) about TP or how it was run, or WF in general start sniveling that you are picking on someone that did SO MUCH for the AT we shouldn't be saying bad stuff about him (he should get a pass on everything.)
We get the same thing for a couple of other posters here occasionally. When people point out the crap they do, a few of the other posters on this site start going on about how horrible it is they are allowed to be treated this way since they have done SO MUCH for the trail. Add to that there are some of these same individuals that know folks are going to say something if they post about their inconsistent behavior - so they do it on purpose just to get that sort of junk going on.
It sounds like you're ready for a hike, Rock. I hope yours is a great one!
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 06:48
I am, and thanks. I need one.
We get the same thing for a couple of other posters here occasionally. When people point out the crap they do, a few of the other posters on this site start going on about how horrible it is they are allowed to be treated this way since they have done SO MUCH for the trail.
I haven't seen that.
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 07:31
You don't get the PMs
How about this for a WB fun raising opportunity.
Charge a small fee to give people the ability to see the PMs to the moderator. And perhaps the PMs of others as well.
Those of us who are into the drama could easily fund the site.
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 07:43
Naw, if they want drama they can post on the open forum. Some have already in the past despite the fact you have not seen them. They are still out there.
Those PM's would be interesting to read, I know I have had people confront me on this site VIA PM, and sometimes it can be quite funny to read. I am guessing the reason more posts have been deleted on this site than trailplace is because there are a lot more people on this site and everyone can push the limits until the moderators draw the line, although I do enjoy reading some s*** that eventually gets deleted.
The one and only,
Kirby
I can only imagine the drama that goes on in the moderator's received PM's. 95% of my received and sent PM's are of the friendly, info sharing sort. The other 5% were, in hindsight, totally unimportant pissing matches that were a complete waste of my time. (The received ones, of coarse.;))
I guess a lot of pepole who used to be on Trailplace will also be coming here. Actually, I once belonged to his site, a long time ago.
a warm welcome to all former Trailplace members:welcome
Panzer
johnny quest
09-29-2007, 11:23
to compare whiteblaze moderators to trailplace's moderator is disengenuous. ive only seen attroll, dixie and rock step in when people just got way out of hand. ive seen nothing but common sense from them. wingfoot would delete you for taking a pov not in keeping with his. sure, it was his sandbox, but how sad that a man is so small. you guys give him way too much credit. he was in business. that website was his storefront...and he didnt want certain people shopping there.
Who the hell is Dan Bruce?
Lone Wolf
09-29-2007, 12:34
Who the hell is Dan Bruce?
the famous Wingfoot
Blissful
09-29-2007, 12:46
I am, and thanks. I need one.
Hiking is such a simplistic lifestyle. It was great in that way, for certain. I came back here, had to get stuff together for my hubby's scout troop this past Thursday (their court of honor night) and nearly lost it. Too much multi tasking too soon.
Only problem is Sgt Rock, once you get back from the hike you'll really want to pull your hair out then. Paul Bunyan wants to hit the trail again as it is. We already have a touch of Springer fever. And we've been back less than two weeks.
SGT Rock
09-29-2007, 12:56
That is why it is nice to live near the trail.
not important, removed :)
johnny quest
09-29-2007, 16:48
Who the hell is Dan Bruce?
exactly. in nutshell.
The Weasel
09-30-2007, 17:51
It sounds like you're ready for a hike, Rock. I hope yours is a great one!
What Rock says is true, but he's being overly gentle about it. Enough time has passed that if anyone was a recent "primary" at TP and is here now, they understand this Forum well.
WhiteBlaze was basically started because Dan Bruce's ego, bragging and poor manners caused the original founder of WB to start it up. It had rapid success, because there was a large pool of people who wanted to share information and companionship without being simply ejected by someone who tried to sound like the voice of God, and did so offensively.
Dan hiked the AT, but frankly didn't know more about it than many others, despite how he tried to make it sound. Nor was his influence as great as he tried to make it sound, and his false camaderie became well known by people as they went onto the trail themselves, to find that he frankly wasn't particularly well-regarded by service providers along the way, although this was sometimes said 'softly' so that they, too, didn't get blacklisted.
Rock and Troll took over WB, and have done a fine job of keeping the original spirit going: Neither one of them tries to dominate either topics or any aspect of trail life, and both are incredibly tolerant, showing a side to the Trail that is more typical than the "look at me, see how great I am" aspect that Dan came to epitomize. For those who loved Trail Place - and I did, originally, until more of it's style became apparent - the longer you are here, or on the AT, the more you'll agree: He had a forum that had some good information, and he lacked the social skills to have true friends, wanting only followers.
Stay here, and while there may be some people who will aggravate you, you'll make far more friends.
TW
Jack Tarlin
09-30-2007, 18:02
I think the above post is more than a little harsh.
I don't know what Weasel means by false camaraderie, but on the more than half a dozen times I met or spoke with Dan Bruce he was friendly, outgoing, and displayed a genuine interest in me and my travels, and in several cases, this was long before I became a well-known hiker. In short, I got the impression thisis how he treated everyone, and I never saw anything "false" about it. I'd be curious to know how many times Weasel has personally met and spoken with Dan Bruce in person. As he is presently not acknnowledging my existence (which is fine), perhaps someone else will ask him this.
Also, I know of NO businesses or Trail providers who were "blacklisted" or kept out of Bruce's book for punishment or for speaking ill of Bruce. In fact, he included businesses that had been removed from other guides. So if Weasel knows more about places that were "blacklisted" by Wingfoot, he should tell us about them, because I don't think they exist.
I agree, Jack.
The key to understanding Weasel's disdain for Wingfoot is this: Weasel offered legal advice to Wingfoot and was turned down.
If Wingfoot would rather get legal advice from the local donut shop, than from Weasel, that's his prerogative. Weasel never got over it.
Or the word Journal LOL.
Or Bushwhack. Though I agree with Jack, that Wingfoot did many useful and friendly things over the years.
max patch
09-30-2007, 18:22
The key to understanding Weasel's disdain for Wingfoot is this: Weasel offered legal advice to Wingfoot and was turned down.
Could be.
I've always thot it was because Weazie went to Dan's house during his attempted thru on several ocassions and Dan refused to answer the door when Weazie knocked.
I could be wrong, tho.
Jack Tarlin
09-30-2007, 18:30
Roland, I'm not going to speculate on the reasons for Weasel's ill will towards Bruce. I neither know nor care to know the reasons, it isn't my business.
But I DO know that Bruce's interest in or friendliness towards hikers was not "false" or pretended, nor did he "blacklist" or threaten to blacklist people.
There has been a lot on this thread that has been unnecessary and unkind; so far, I've chosen to stay out of it. I'd thought we'd seen the end of the Wingfoot bashing threads, but I guess I was wrong. If there are embittered angry people who have nothing better to do than lash out at Dan Bruce, even tho he's essentially retiring from the hiking world, well that can't be helped. But is it too much to ask that they speak the truth when doing so?
Something is wrong here. I find myself in agreement with Jack Tarlin. :D
Nice post, Jack; carefully worded and kind demeanor.
In retrospect, my poke to Weasel was no better than his towards Wingfoot. I'm gonna go back to my corner now. Carry on.
Jack, as with some well-known folks on WB (possibly including yourself) the internet persona and the real-life (meat) persona may be quite different. I met WF in person in 1990 (several times) and he was a likeable, decent fellow for the most part. But on Trailplace he was a tyrant and egomaniac. I can't explain it.
Jack Tarlin
09-30-2007, 18:55
Terrapin's right, and of course this includes me, too.
SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 19:07
I hear I can be a nice guy in person too.
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 19:08
The Internet makes people evil.
Although I poked fun at his going away party, I stand behind Wingfoot, seemed like a nice man, always willing to give a helping hand, and sent me a free copy of his book when he found out about a situation that all of a sudden made it difficult to pay for his book, which I am quite pleased with by the way.
In the end, we all have our opinions about him, like him or not, he made an impact on the trail and the trail community, and his name will be known, in love or hate, in the AT hiking world for quite a while.
Kirby
johnny quest
09-30-2007, 19:14
maybe the last couple posts have hit on something true about not only wingfoot, but several people on whiteblaze as well.
it seems some folks are different online, specifically in threadposts. either they grow a pair or lose their manners, im not sure which. but there is something to be said for the edict "dont say it to me online unless you would say it to me face to face."
notice i didnt say "old edict". thats cause i just made that one up.
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 19:20
maybe the last couple posts have hit on something true about not only wingfoot, but several people on whiteblaze as well.
it seems some folks are different online, specifically in threadposts. either they grow a pair or lose their manners, im not sure which. but there is something to be said for the edict "dont say it to me online unless you would say it to me face to face."
notice i didnt say "old edict". thats cause i just made that one up.
So do you or don't you walk around nude shaking your butt at people when you're not on the internet? :confused:
dixicritter
09-30-2007, 19:22
So do you or don't you walk around nude shaking your butt at people when you're not on the internet? :confused:
I am soooo glad I hadn't taken that drink yet.... LMAO.
johnny quest
09-30-2007, 19:25
ONLY for people who can appreciate it.
SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 19:33
maybe the last couple posts have hit on something true about not only wingfoot, but several people on whiteblaze as well.
it seems some folks are different online, specifically in threadposts. either they grow a pair or lose their manners, im not sure which. but there is something to be said for the edict "dont say it to me online unless you would say it to me face to face."
notice i didnt say "old edict". thats cause i just made that one up.
I think that some people don't even realize when they do this - either through denial or just indifference. I can think of a couple of confrontations recently with posters in PM where when I point out how they act and why that is an issue they deny they even do it when multiple members and moderators can see it in their posting style.
johnny quest
09-30-2007, 19:37
i guess that could be it rock. me, i think that this "anonymity" and distance provided by the internet makes people lose their manners. there is nothing i love more than intelligent impassioned debate....but some folks around here need to be clocked up side the head.....and deserve it....when they get diarheaa of the mouth. and with that im outahere. say bye to the naked dancing boy.
SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 19:38
Actually I was watching "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" and I think they have a good idea. Now if I could just get me a movie check - I would have to find me a partner to go look some of these muldoons up.
say bye to the naked dancing boy.
Bout time, won't miss your dancin ass a bit
woodsy
When I first began to realize that the time was right to do the trail I had never sat before a computer in my life. My daughter (who, by the way, gave The Weasel his name) who is an IT person taught me how to access the internet and found Trailplace for me. For the next several days and nights I read every journal on Dan's website. There were some real gems and some not so gemmy, but each and every one gave me encouragement.
I also became acquainted with Jack, Weary, Iceman, The Weasel, and many others. Again, I learned not only Trail Stuff but internet manners as well. I can safely say I've been flamed by the best. Never a personal attack, but I knew I'd screwed up.
On several occasions I spoke with Dan on the phone and discovered we share some history (NOT lifestyle or trail related, but personal backgeround).
We have had conversations lasting over two hours and I found him both informative and entertaining.
After Dan left Hot Springs and moved back to Atlanta and the website went down for awhile I saw a completely different individual after he restarted it. I don't know why, but I do know that I was banished for a single misspoken word with no further discussion. As has been said, It's his sandbox and he can play with whomever he likes, so I left it at that.
I looked at it like a failed relationship of sorts when its over, get over it and move on. Thanks to Whiteblaze that wasn't too difficult.
I got no personal beef with Wingfoot and really don't feel like he deserves the bashing he gets. To me the basher puts himself on the same level as the bashee when it is no more than namecalling and gossiping. As for the actual sins of Dan Bruce, Let him without sin cast the first stone.
Lone Wolf
09-30-2007, 20:32
Also, I know of NO businesses or Trail providers who were "blacklisted" or kept out of Bruce's book for punishment or for speaking ill of Bruce. In fact, he included businesses that had been removed from other guides.
namely the ALDHA COMPANION. a few prominent members get to the editors and you're out! Uncle Johnny's Hostel comes to mind.
So do you or don't you walk around nude shaking your butt at people when you're not on the internet?
I am soooo glad I hadn't taken that drink yet.... LMAO.
ONLY for people who can appreciate it.
Judging by the proportions that isn’t many…..
On several occasions I spoke with Dan on the phone and discovered we share some history (NOT lifestyle or trail related, but personal backgeround).
Well, I'm glad that you cleared up that the common history wasn't "lifestyle".:D
Panzer
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 22:02
Well, I'm glad that you cleared up that the common history wasn't "lifestyle".
Panzer
Is Mr. Bruce's lifestyle unethical? Sounds like if anything, he was too ethical for many people.
Well, I'm glad that you cleared up that the common history wasn't "lifestyle".:D
Panzer
In the early '50s my father was Sherrif of the rural North Georgia County where I grew up. Dan's father was Sherrif of the same county a few years before.
SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 22:14
Is Mr. Bruce's lifestyle unethical? Sounds like if anything, he was too ethical for many people.
I think there are two things here. WFs "lifestyle" is not what some people would want to be accidentally associated with. There is nothing wrong with how he decided to live his life - at least not that I know of.
On the other end, I don't know that he was too ethical. I think many of the questions arrise on how he decided to count things to his credit.
He often gave himself a lot of credit for things other people wouldn't dream of counting for themselves as trail support - like posting on an Internet site counting as supporting the trail community or keeping his own lights on by paying his electrical bill as financial support for the trail. Add to that the issue with accepting money for a product he never shipped to some people or countiuously reffering to the "Center for Appalachian Trail Studies" as we when it was only he.
When I first began to realize that the time was right to do the trail I had never sat before a computer in my life.
Imagine that! Some folks hiked the AT... end to end, even... before the Internet existed. It boggles the mind. :rolleyes:
Imagine that! Some folks hiked the AT... end to end, even... before the Internet existed. It boggles the mind. :rolleyes:
I don't quite know how to take that so I'll just let it slide.
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 22:31
I think there are two things here. WFs "lifestyle" is not what some people would want to be accidentally associated with. There is nothing wrong with how he decided to live his life - at least not that I know of.
Oh, I learned exactly what was being alluded to the other day. I just don't understand exactly why "IT" is mentioned when "IT" is, or why "IT" is mentioned at all? Apparently he announced "IT" publicly so there is no reason to avoid talking about "IT" by name if "IT" needs to be discussed. There must be some relevance that I'm not seeing. WhiteBlaze posters in general aren't known to beat around the bush when they want to say something.
continuously referring to the "Center for Appalachian Trail Studies" as we when it was only he.Certainly Mr. Bruce is not the only person to do something like that! I find it either comical or sad depending on whether it is an attempt at importance or a failed dream.
The other things ARE either silly or unethical or even illegal. What I don't understand is why he needed to exaggerate anything when even his critics acknowledge the huge amount of good things he did.
Plus, I don't understand why everybody talks as if this is his wake. He's withdrawing from public life but he still has one.
The Internet makes people evil.
I think occasionally, the internet makes people honest, which sometimes is hard to take.
Dan struck me as more honest than most, but not always wise. I sense I have similar traits.
SGT Rock
09-30-2007, 22:41
Oh, I learned exactly what was being alluded to the other day. I just don't understand exactly why "IT" is mentioned when "IT" is, or why "IT" is mentioned at all? Apparently he announced "IT" publicly so there is no reason to avoid talking about "IT" by name if "IT" needs to be discussed. There must be some relevance that I'm not seeing. WhiteBlaze posters in general aren't known to beat around the bush when they want to say something.
Well that is certainly true - I don't know why we have to allude to it. BUT whenever it is talked about openly I get my PM inbox filled up by people that think talking openly about something WF didn't hide is somehow imputing his character. So to the sensitive I leave it alone so those folks can feel better. It doesn't matter to me whether we talk about it openly or not.
Certainly Mr. Bruce is not the only person to do something like that! I find it either comical or sad depending on whether it is an attempt at importance or a failed dream.
I see it the same way. But I wouldn't call it being totally honest or up-front. It's been my job as a senior NCO for a number of years to call the BS flag when folks under my control try to do it on awards or evaluations. So I still do it - it's a habit of not accepting "overstating".
The other things ARE either silly or unethical or even illegal. What I don't understand is why he needed to exaggerate anything when even his critics acknowledge the huge amount of good things he did. I don't either. You can call him and ask - he has his phone number up on his site. I called him yesterday. As to huge amount of good things - if you take the comments above - some people don't know if they can believe the claims of the other things anymore. Sure some are indisputable, but others seem awfully "overstated".
Plus, I don't understand why everybody talks as if this is his wake. He's withdrawing from public life but he still has one.After talking to him and looking at his site - I think it is because he is cutting himself out of the trail community. So it isn't like a wake - it is like watching someone that has been in your office for the last 25 years retire and leave the country. And add to that - it is someone that everyone seems to have an opinion about.
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 22:45
Definitely a bit of drama in the way he is withdrawing. He is not a uni-dimensional person and I wish I had gotten to meet him.
Maybe he's on new meds or somethig like that.
Panzer
Definitely a bit of drama in the way he is withdrawing. He is not a uni-dimensional person and I wish I had gotten to meet him.
you still can. He's not dead you know.
Panzer
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 23:10
you still can. He's not dead you know.
Panzer
Yes, but I respect his right to withdraw from public life. At first, I was a little uncomfortable with all of these threads infringing on his privacy but apparently he enjoys attention.
Yes, but I respect his right to withdraw from public life. At first, I was a little uncomfortable with all of these threads infringing on his privacy but apparently he enjoys attention.
What do you mean "public life"?
Panzer
Appalachian Tater
09-30-2007, 23:21
Interaction with hikers and trail organizations and supporters. He is very Googleable.
Interaction with hikers and trail organizations and supporters. He is very Googleable.
christ !!!!
Panzer
Originally Posted by _terrapin_
Imagine that! Some folks hiked the AT... end to end, even... before the Internet existed. It boggles the mind. :rolleyes:
I don't quite know how to take that so I'll just let it slide.
No problem. There was a point (vaguely relevant to the thread topic) but nobody picked up on it. :rolleyes:
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 00:57
christ !!!!
Jesus said it's okay for you to just call him "Chuey".
Jesus said it's okay for you to just call him "Chuey".
LOL.
Now I've got to leave for work.... (I had to add that or the message was too short.)
SGT Rock
10-01-2007, 08:05
Well he is writing another book on the Bible. So I assume when it comes out he will then become a public figure in that areana. He seemed very egar to talk about it whe I spoke to him - so you may get your chance someday when he finishes that book.
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 11:24
Well he is writing another book on the Bible. So I assume when it comes out he will then become a public figure in that areana. He seemed very egar to talk about it whe I spoke to him - so you may get your chance someday when he finishes that book.
When you say "he", do you mean "Chuey" or "Wingfoot"???
Overpass
10-01-2007, 11:27
Well he is writing another book on the Bible.
Is he a fundie? Maybe that's where the closed-mindedness comes from :rolleyes:
SGT Rock
10-01-2007, 11:40
I doubt he is a fundamentalist - at least not in the traditional sense of what most people take that to mean. Other aspects of his life would not make him welcome to that traditional fundamentalist.
The Weasel
10-01-2007, 11:53
Could be.
I've always thot it was because Weazie went to Dan's house during his attempted thru on several ocassions and Dan refused to answer the door when Weazie knocked.
I could be wrong, tho.
Max:
No, it's not a "because" but that's a symptom of it. Nor did it matter to me that Dan declined my offer to assist him in seeking 501(c)(3) (or similar) status. Nor have I any doubt that Dan, for those he met, would be civil or friendly; it's a bit of a non sequitur to say, 'he was friendly to his friends,' but I have no problem with it.
But both in my times on the trail as since, I found that Dan was frequently disingenuous about a lot of things. My offer about tax-exempt status was one: Dan complained, in 2001 - I thought, reasonably - about how his "Center" was sucking up huge amounts of money, and he sought (as he has for his 'farewell') contributions; a number of people asked if they were tax deductible, and, of course, they aren't if there isn't an IRS approval under IRC 501(c). A lot of people thought he was tax deductible, and he didn't do much to correct that belief. He was similarly disingenuous about all of the reasons that kept "preventing" the 2000 Guide from being timely distributed, and other things were similar. He's never really apologized for things like this, and ejected people from TP when they asked - usually in non-offensive ways - for honest explanations.
As for service providers, as I walked the Trail, I was surprised a number of times to mention "Wingfoot" and to find that many had never met him or, in some cases, had never even spoken with him on the telephone. A few expressed disdain for him, and I wondered about that but, at the time, I had other concerns, such as whether to fix boots or replace them or to stay in a hostel or a motel. But others have spoken to me that he was not the 'presence' on the Trail that he made it appear to all of us, and that surprised me too.
As I look at his "closing" (and, frankly, having seen him "close" before, I'm not entirely cerain that it's final this time, either), I see the same things: Closing, without notice or warning, so that users - many of whom, planning for 2008, were left without access to information they assumed would be there for them and had no chance to save, including posts to/from them themselves). The suggestion that if you don't consider thru hiking the most important thing in your life, you should do something else - as if one cannot have multiple interests at varying levels from time to time - and, most of all, the "Farewell Party" that has no invitations, date or place, but still solicits "Thank you gifts" and which tries to sound as if someone else was lauding Dan, when in reality (as is obvious by his intense control of his site) it is simply him saying, "Give me things."
I don't bear Dan any ill will, but over the years, as I've seen what the AT is and the people who have worked on, and for, it, I've come to the conclusion that "Wingfoot" and his "legend" are far more a matter of self-promotion than otherwise.
TW
Miss Janet
10-01-2007, 12:21
namely the ALDHA COMPANION. a few prominent members get to the editors and you're out! Uncle Johnny's Hostel comes to mind.
You are a strong supporter of getting the Nolichucky Hostel back into the Companion and I guess I am a little curious. I am pretty sure that YOUR negative incidents with the proprietor were part of the accumulated complaints made that added to the decision to eventually remove the listing.
Jack Tarlin
10-01-2007, 12:24
A quick comment to Lone Wolf:
The business you mentioned in post #110 above was NOT removed rom the Thru-Hikers Companion because a few well-known hikers "got" to the editors.
The decision was made at a rather high level at both ALDHA and the ATC because of the extraordinary ammount of complaints that had been registered about the place at both organizations, including many signed letters that had been received over the course of several years. After a good deal of thought and consultation, it was decided to remove this business' listing from the Companion.
But for Wolf to state that this decision was made because a few well-known hikers "got" to the people who produced the Companion is simply not true, and when I see him in a few days in Pennsylvania, if he's still interested, I'll happily provide Wolf with the details about how this decision was made and why.
Lone Wolf
10-01-2007, 12:27
But for Wolf to state that this decision was made because a few well-known hikers "got" to the people who produced the Companion is simply not true, and when I see him in a few days in Pennsylvania, if he's still interested, I'll happily provide Wolf with the details about how this decision was made and why.
and bring that register entry you tore out regarding warrenand fording :cool:
Lone Wolf
10-01-2007, 12:29
A quick comment to Lone Wolf:
The business you mentioned in post #110 above was NOT removed rom the Thru-Hikers Companion because a few well-known hikers "got" to the editors.
The decision was made at a rather high level at both ALDHA and the ATC because of the extraordinary ammount of complaints that had been registered about the place at both organizations, including many signed letters that had been received over the course of several years. After a good deal of thought and consultation, it was decided to remove this business' listing from the Companion.
But for Wolf to state that this decision was made because a few well-known hikers "got" to the people who produced the Companion is simply not true, and when I see him in a few days in Pennsylvania, if he's still interested, I'll happily provide Wolf with the details about how this decision was made and why.
maybe ALDHA and ATC should get out of the business of listing off trail businesses
max patch
10-01-2007, 12:31
namely the ALDHA COMPANION. a few prominent members get to the editors and you're out! Uncle Johnny's Hostel comes to mind.
Several years ago Rainbow Springs was almost kicked out of the Companion because of "hiker complaints." In reality the only "problem" at Rainbow Springs was that Jensine didn't kiss hikers azz when they arrived. I think, although I don't know for sure, that the individual responsible for updating this section wasn't a former thru. In any event, those knowledgeable of what was going on sent emails to the editor and the listing remained in the guide.
Lone Wolf
10-01-2007, 12:33
Several years ago Rainbow Springs was almost kicked out of the Companion because of "hiker complaints." In reality the only "problem" at Rainbow Springs was that Jensine didn't kiss hikers azz when they arrived. I think, although I don't know for sure, that the individual responsible for updating this section wasn't a former thru. In any event, those knowledgeable of what was going on sent emails to the editor and the listing remained in the guide.
same as Whitehouse Landing. they don't kiss ass. they run a business. they are totally unimpressed with your hike. i like that.
Jack Tarlin
10-01-2007, 12:34
I disagree, Wolf.
I don't think there's anything wrong with these organizations listing businesses and facilities that may be of value and use to hikers.
Nor is there anything wrong with de-listing businesses that were the subject of dozens of complaints.
Nobody is entitled to get or keep a listing in a guidebook, and nobody should take a listing for granted or expect that once listed, you get to stay in the book forever.
Wingfoot's site was deliberately a for profit enterprise. So contributions have never been tax deductible. I asked him once why not? I don't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect that it would have required a board of directors, something he didn't want to be bothered with. The for profit status was obvious to anyone who bothered to look. It was Trailplace.com, not dot org.
I have always suspected that another reason was that he hoped for some profits. He was still a relatively young person when the site started and he needed to earn a living. I think he dreamed of making a living from something he loved.
And of course, he did. But from all appearances, it was a very meager living.
Weary
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 12:44
I don't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect that it would have required a board of directors, something he didn't want to be bothered with.
Control seems to be very important to him. A board of directors is normally the highest level of internal authority in an organization. He probably did not wish to cede control even to a board he chose and chaired.
The word "donation" in conjuction with a for-profit business is absurd. In an extreme case, I would think the state Attorney General would want to look into something like that.
no. he has it up for sale for $2000
:D now that is funny:cool: neo
Control seems to be very important to him. A board of directors is normally the highest level of internal authority in an organization. He probably did not wish to cede control even to a board he chose and chaired.
The word "donation" in conjuction with a for-profit business is absurd. In an extreme case, I would think the state Attorney General would want to look into something like that.
He certainly wanted control. But I know no law that says a for profit organization can't seek contributions. It's still a free country. They just have to be honest about it.
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 12:58
The word "donate" or "donation" pretty much implies that it is a charitable gift.
Footslogger
10-01-2007, 13:00
The word "donate" or "donation" pretty much implies that it is a charitable gift.
=============================
...as in donating to a political candidate ??
Max:
TW
BLAH BLAH BLAH... I did not even read the longwined response but I can guess it was just a bunch of dodging and false justifications.
BLAH BLAH BLAH... BLAHDITTY BLAH BLAH.BLAH... :rolleyes:
generoll
10-01-2007, 13:07
It seems that the service providers are a mixed bag and the expectations of the hikers also vary widely. Just about anyplace you care to mention has its detractors and its partisans. I'm not sure that there is a perfect solution but I wonder if it wouldn't be best to list those convenient to or catering to hikers with just a general 'buyer beware' notation. Which is to say, don't "de-list" anyone, but make sure that hikers are aware that listing does not mean endorsing.
Word of mouth will probably take care of the bad apples.
Lone Wolf
10-01-2007, 13:08
It seems that the service providers are a mixed bag and the expectations of the hikers also vary widely. Just about anyplace you care to mention has its detractors and its partisans. I'm not sure that there is a perfect solution but I wonder if it wouldn't be best to list those convenient to or catering to hikers with just a general 'buyer beware' notation. Which is to say, don't "de-list" anyone, but make sure that hikers are aware that listing does not mean endorsing.
Word of mouth will probably take care of the bad apples.
that's what i was getting at.
I doubt he is a fundamentalist - .
There was a book several years ago titled 'Joe, and me' about a father and son hiking the AT. They met a young guy who said he was considering the seminary and impressed the author as one of the most pious people he ever met. Turns out that guy was Dan Bruce. Maybe he's going back to his roots. I know there's a joke in there. Not intentional.
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 13:24
=============================
...as in donating to a political candidate ??
Well, usually they're called "political contributions" instead of "political donations", but they're usually NOT tax deductible.
The Weasel
10-01-2007, 13:26
Wingfoot's site was deliberately a for profit enterprise. So contributions have never been tax deductible. I asked him once why not? I don't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect that it would have required a board of directors, something he didn't want to be bothered with. The for profit status was obvious to anyone who bothered to look. It was Trailplace.com, not dot org.
I have always suspected that another reason was that he hoped for some profits. He was still a relatively young person when the site started and he needed to earn a living. I think he dreamed of making a living from something he loved.
And of course, he did. But from all appearances, it was a very meager living.
Weary
Control seems to be very important to him. A board of directors is normally the highest level of internal authority in an organization. He probably did not wish to cede control even to a board he chose and chaired.
The word "donation" in conjuction with a for-profit business is absurd. In an extreme case, I would think the state Attorney General would want to look into something like that.
The word "donate" or "donation" pretty much implies that it is a charitable gift.
Well, a few thoughts:
Dan was aware (from me, if not for others) that a "not for profit corporation" (which is NOT the same as getting IRS approval for tax-deductible contributions, see below) can have a board of directors of as few as one person, and that he could have been the "director" in perpetuity. It is common, and would not have been a problem.
As to the confusion, though, Dan was also aware of that, and never really clarified it to people, many of whom (I think that includes the way 'Tater reads it) think that "donation" means "tax deductible" and "charitable." No, it doesn't: "For proft" corporations get gifts all the time, and nothing prohibits it, although those are not "charitable deductions".
And lastly, Dan could easily have made 'a living' from a non-profit charitable corporation; that happens all the time, too: It's called "setting a salary."
So it just bothered me - and I think at least some others - that he did a lot of things that seemed dubious, with no explanation, that seem very selfish.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 13:27
It seems that the service providers are a mixed bag and the expectations of the hikers also vary widely. Just about anyplace you care to mention has its detractors and its partisans. I'm not sure that there is a perfect solution but I wonder if it wouldn't be best to list those convenient to or catering to hikers with just a general 'buyer beware' notation. Which is to say, don't "de-list" anyone, but make sure that hikers are aware that listing does not mean endorsing.
Word of mouth will probably take care of the bad apples. I would agree except in particularly notorious cases.
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 13:38
Well, a few thoughts:
.....a "not for profit corporation" .... can have a board of directors of as few as one person, and that he could have been the "director" in perpetuity. It is common, and would not have been a problem.
I didn't know that, and it is a good thing to know. Thank you.
(I think that includes the way 'Tater reads it) think that "donation" means "tax deductible" and "charitable." No, it doesn't: "For proft" corporations get gifts all the time, and nothing prohibits it, although those are not "charitable deductions". I am very aware of this and that's why I said "pretty much implies". That's a very clear phrase.
And lastly, Dan could easily have made 'a living' from a non-profit charitable corporation; that happens all the time, too: It's called "setting a salary." Which is why I was puzzled when people were upset about the possibility of a WhiteBlaze guide making a few thousand dollars a year. God knows the people who run this site put plenty of time, effort, and patience into it. The CEO of the Red Cross makes over $650,000 plus benefits.
So it just bothered me - and I think at least some others - that he did a lot of things that seemed dubious, with no explanation, that seem very selfish.
TWFortunately we are not all forced to publicly justify our behavior to our fellow human beings on a daily basis.
Well, usually they're called "political contributions" instead of "political donations", but they're usually tax deductible.
Donations to candidates and to political parties are not tax deductible. At least that is my understanding. If I'm wrong I'll need to send in modified returns for as far back as the rules allow.
Weary
Appalachian Tater
10-01-2007, 14:27
Donations to candidates and to political parties are not tax deductible. At least that is my understanding. If I'm wrong I'll need to send in modified returns for as far back as the rules allow.
Weary
No, you're right. That's why they're normally called "contributions" and not "donations". I'll correct my post!
Who's wingfoot? Hermes?
Please don't sully my name.
-Hermes
warren doyle
10-02-2007, 10:04
I remember when the issue of Uncle Johnny's and the ALDHA Companion came up. It appeared that Mr. Tarlin and John O were the most publicly vocal about dropping him from the book. This decision was not made by the ALDHA membership and I don't recall even by the steering committee (although I will have to check the minutes of the meeting). Just because a few overly vocal hikers don't like somebody that doesn't mean that other hikers are going to feel the same way.
This was one of the reasons why, a few years prior to this time, I had mixed feelings about ALDHA doing the Companion for the ATC.
It is apparent to me that if you don't play by some hiker's rules that they will become very vocal and intimidating on the internet forums until they get what they want, although the majority of hikers feel differently.
In my years of interacting with both Ms. Janet and Uncle Johnny, I have found both of them to be genuinely interested in and caring about the long distance hiking community. They have put much time and effort into it.
I wish Ms. Janet good fortune in securing another hiker hostel/trailside community and I wish Uncle Johnny good health.
And, if anyone is interested, I put my semi-regular "How to Safely Ford the Kennebec" register entry at West Carry Pond LT in early August. It will take about ten minutes to hand copy (preferable to ripping it out).
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 14:30
Why not post that here? Some of us want to ford it.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 14:33
Why not post that here? Some of us want to ford it.
yup. good idea. fording can be safe and fun
Jack Tarlin
10-02-2007, 14:46
Mr. Warren Doyle's post above, #160, is riddled with mistakes, inaccuracies, and falsehoods.
The hostel in question in Erwin was dropped from the Companioin for one reason and one reason only, and that was because of the great number, and the severity, of the complaints about the place. These complaints had been accumulating for years before this action was taken. There are any number of people at ALDHA or the ATC who can confirm this. Of course, had Mr. Doyle chosen to take a more active role in the writing or publication of the Companion over the years, he'd be aware of the facts of the matter. But he didn't.
In any case, his contention that the decision to de-list this establishment was made by a handful of "vocal" Internet intimidators is a statement as ridiculous as it is false, and I suspect that Mr. Doyle knows this. The de-listing came about after dozens, if not scores of complaints had been made about this place to both ALDHA and ATC.
If Mr. Doyle is truly interested in this matter, and isn't merely interested in maligning me, he can find me at the Gathering and I'll happily give him more of the details on this matter. Then he can come back here and retract his above post and comments.
But why do I suspect he won't bother to do this? :-?
Gray Blazer
10-02-2007, 14:47
Please don't sully my name.
-Hermes
I know, I know......Zeus is going to kick my a$$.
:rolleyes: :banana :banana
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 14:52
Time out y'all. I want to hear about fording.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 14:57
Time out y'all. I want to hear about fording.
get to the river around 7:00AM, walk up stream a hundred yards or so then start across where you see the most rock and gravel. course you'll have your lekis for balance. the rocks are slippery. it goes from akle to waist deep. you'll see on the north bank where other forders climb up.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 14:59
Mr. Warren Doyle's post above, #160, is riddled with mistakes, inaccuracies, and falsehoods.
The hostel in question in Erwin was dropped from the Companioin for one reason and one reason only, and that was because of the great number, and the severity, of the complaints about the place. These complaints had been accumulating for years before this action was taken. There are any number of people at ALDHA or the ATC who can confirm this. Of course, had Mr. Doyle chosen to take a more active role in the writing or publication of the Companion over the years, he'd be aware of the facts of the matter. But he didn't.
In any case, his contention that the decision to de-list this establishment was made by a handful of "vocal" Internet intimidators is a statement as ridiculous as it is false, and I suspect that Mr. Doyle knows this. The de-listing came about after dozens, if not scores of complaints had been made about this place to both ALDHA and ATC.
If Mr. Doyle is truly interested in this matter, and isn't merely interested in maligning me, he can find me at the Gathering and I'll happily give him more of the details on this matter. Then he can come back here and retract his above post and comments.
But why do I suspect he won't bother to do this? :-?
Mr. Doyle has zero credibility. Reading his post assured me of one thing: that however it happened was not as he described.
Time out y'all. I want to hear about fording.
I'm a chevy man myself.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:02
I thought that was a jeep you were driving?
Mr. Doyle has zero credibility.
Says who? Who here knows more about the AT than him?
While you may not agree with many of the things that Warren does, proclaiming that he has zero credibility is silly.
Footslogger
10-02-2007, 15:06
Time out y'all. I want to hear about fording.
===================================
Where'd that word "fording" come from anyway ???
'Slogger
I thought that was a jeep you were driving?
It was. Chevy sounded better in response to "fording." I guess I have no credibility now. ;)
I've actually only owned one Chevy in my life. A 73 Impala sedan that I wrecked back when I was an active drunk 23 years ago. A miracle I didn't kill or hurt anyone.
Jack Tarlin
10-02-2007, 15:09
On this matter, Mowgli, the phrase "zero credibility" would certainly apply.
What is silly, Mowgli, is for him to spout nonsense and untruths as he did in post #160.
Mr. Doyle takes great pleasure in terming many of my posts "garbage."
He would do well to examine some of his own.
But I'll repeat myself: If he is truly interested in this, then he can find me in Gettysburg and I'll give him some more of the details. Then he can write back to this thread after the Gathering.
And if he DOESN'T seek me out for this information, then I guess he's not really interested, right?
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:10
Says who? Who here knows more about the AT than him?
While you may not agree with many of the things that Warren does, proclaiming that he has zero credibility is silly.
I have to agree here. Though Warren and I have our differences, he has a heck of a lot of knowledge about the AT and its history.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:11
But I'll repeat myself: If he is truly interested in this, then he can find me in Gettysburg and I'll give him some more of the details. Then he can write back to this thread after the Gathering.
how about YOU posting the details here? i'm sure others who may not be going to the gathering would like to know also
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:14
Credibility = Believability = Trustworthiness.
He is a scoundrel of low morals, a liar and a thief. I'll stand by my statement that he has zero credibility.
Knowledge, sure; credibility, none.
The Weasel
10-02-2007, 15:14
Says who? Who here knows more about the AT than him?
Dan Bruce, who has helped millions of people. Says so right on his website.
The Weasel
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:15
Credibility = Believability = Trustworthiness.
He is a scoundrel of low morals, a liar and a thief. I'll stand by my statement that he has zero credibility.
Knowledge, sure; credibility, none.
you know nothing
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:19
Credibility = Believability = Trustworthiness.
He is a scoundrel of low morals, a liar and a thief. I'll stand by my statement that he has zero credibility.
Knowledge, sure; credibility, none.Maybe to you he doesn't.
If he was going to tell me about tipping waiters I might not follow his advice, but if he told me something about the AT history or how to ford the Kennebeck I would take his advice.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:19
you know nothing
you know even nothinger
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:21
you know even nothinger
wrong scooter. i'm willing to bet i know a helluva lot more about the AT, certain hostels, fording, etc. than you do. not braggin', just sayin'
But I'll repeat myself...
:: bites tongue :: :rolleyes:
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:24
Maybe to you he doesn't.
If he was going to tell me about tipping waiters I might not follow his advice, but if he told me something about the AT history or how to ford the Kennebeck I would take his advice.
So you believe what he said about "Uncle Johnny's" being dropped from the companion? I've read in Trail Journals about some of the incidents, and I talked to some local people in Erwin about him. I also met him myself.
I have found that when someone is dishonest and does not care about other people that these negative qualities are not restricted to one area. Doyle is so full of himself that he would never consider that his advice about fording might be incomplete or otherwise imperfect.
The day will come when the water is released before 7:00 without warning. Dams are not always managed to suit recreational users downstream. Even if a horn is blown, there are deaf hikers on the trail. I know one who almost drowned when water was released from a dam without any warning other than a horn.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:26
wrong scooter. i'm willing to bet i know a helluva lot more about the AT, certain hostels, fording, etc. than you do. not braggin', just sayin'
Well, considering the extreme differences in our experience, you'd be a pretty dumb ***** if you didn't.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:27
Great point. So I am taking my life into my own hands by deciding to do that instead of slackpacking across in a boat.
Who smokes or smoked? Who drinks or drank? Who bungie jumps, sky dives, rappels out of helicopters, rides down the streets of Baghdad in an M1114?
Anyway, I asked him because I want to know from his experience. You can ignore us if you want, but your decision not to give him any credibility is not my issue. So stop trying to tell me how to think.
The Weasel
10-02-2007, 15:28
Maybe to you he doesn't.
If he was going to tell me about tipping waiters I might not follow his advice, but if he told me something about the AT history or how to ford the Kennebeck I would take his advice.
Even a broken watch is right twice a day. (Well, unless it's on military time...and right only once.)
TW
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:30
Yes and even in idiot savant is good at something. If you want to get advice on something I find asking someone that has done it a few times successfully is a good place to start. Someone that has never done something telling you how terrible it is - well it seems like it would be like the Pope telling me how to meet girls.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:34
Great point. So I am taking my life into my own hands by deciding to do that instead of slackpacking across in a boat.
Who smokes or smoked? Who drinks or drank? Who bungie jumps, sky dives, rappels out of helicopters, rides down the streets of Baghdad in an M1114?
Anyway, I asked him because I want to know from his experience. You can ignore us if you want, but your decision not to give him any credibility is not my issue. So stop trying to tell me how to think.
Actually I was not meaning to tell you how to think and my comment about his credibility was related to his post about "Uncle Johnny's", not fording. As long as it is legal, you absolutely should ford if you choose to and I have never said someone shouldn't do so if they want to.
However, leaving instructions on how to do it in a register is asking for unwelcome consequences. I have no doubt that Mr. Doyle will be as smug as ever after someone dies as a direct result of his actions and will not feel the slightest bit responsible even if the drowned person's companions say they got the idea from Mr. Doyle's register entry. That is where "low morals" come into play and is actions like this that make me surprised that the ATC and the ALDHA haven't completely banned him from any of their activities.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:35
Yes and even in idiot savant is good at something. If you want to get advice on something I find asking someone that has done it a few times successfully is a good place to start. Someone that has never done something telling you how terrible it is - well it seems like it would be like the Pope telling me how to meet girls.
i've only forded 6 or 7 times but i'd be willing to come to maine next year and show you. :)
Jack Tarlin
10-02-2007, 15:36
I think the Johnny thing has been done to death, I'm tired of hearing about it.
And wasn't this thread about Dan Bruce's farewell? :-?
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:36
Well that is their business. I am reminded about the story of three blind men trying to describe an elephant - from their perspective they all thought they were right - but none of them got the whole picture. I'm sure Jack and Warren both have the way they remember it and maybe neither of them are right, or both of them are right, or who knows.
But I want to learn how to ford the Kennebeck. LWolf answered, I'd like to hear Warren's answer too.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:38
i've only forded 6 or 7 times but i'd be willing to come to maine next year and show you. :)
Your invited. Can we get the beer cold in the Kennebeck as we cross it? I figure drinking before we cross would be a bad idea.
Oh, and I will teach my dog to swim before I get there and keep the cell phone and gun in a waterproof bag. Do I need to loan you a Leki pole?
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 15:40
But I want to learn how to ford the Kennebeck. LWolf answered, I'd like to hear Warren's answer too.
He'll be back later to see what damage his hit-and-run caused. Maybe he'll answer you publicly, maybe he'll PM you. I have an idea what he'll do and we'll see if this post influences his behavior.
Goin' for a walk now!
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:41
Actually that post didn't have to go up. I approved it. I wanna know how to ford the Kennebeck - I am seriously planning to do it.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:42
Your invited. Can we get the beer cold in the Kennebeck as we cross it? I figure drinking before we cross would be a bad idea.
Oh, and I will teach my dog to swim before I get there and keep the cell phone and gun in a waterproof bag. Do I need to loan you a Leki pole?
i'll bring the beer iced down in a cooler and leave it on the north side, ford SOBO at the correct spot, then ford back NOBO with you. no need for lekis. i can pick up a stick or two on either bank
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:44
Your just afraid I'll post a picture of you holding a Leki pole
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:45
Your just afraid I'll post a picture of you holding a Leki pole
nah. it's already been done. i posed with some at the LT northern border
dixicritter
10-02-2007, 15:46
I told him you'd say that...lol
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:46
BTW, talk about thread drift - this one is floundering down the Kennebec
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 15:49
back to UJ's and the companion and ATC. ALDHA should get out of the guidebook business. Let ATC do it alone.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 15:50
What if they made it into a coloring book? We need mattewskis' input.
Someone that has never done something telling you how terrible it is - well it seems like it would be like the Pope telling me how to meet girls.
Chicks dig the hat :eek:
BTW, talk about thread drift - this one is floundering down the Kennebec
Whoa, before we are done floundering, can you and LW tell us what is wrong with taking the Ferryman service across the Kennebec? Is the blaze in the bottom of the canoe a crock? Or are you just getting back to the original way it was done...you know, with Leki's? ;)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 16:00
can you and LW tell us what is wrong with taking the Ferryman service across the Kennebec? Is the blaze in the bottom of the canoe a crock?
for me it's like waiting on a bus if you're at the station early. just walk across.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 16:01
Whoa, before we are done floundering, can you and LW tell us what is wrong with taking the Ferryman service across the Kennebec?
Nothing that I know of.
Is the blaze in the bottom of the canoe a crock? Or are you just getting back to the original way it was done...you know, with Leki's? ;)
I don't particularly feel a need to follow any blazes - I want to do my hike my way since I may only do an AT thru once. I'm already going to skip the first 230 something miles and use the BMT instead (making my dang walk longer) and since I have ridden a canoe before on a river - it doesn't sound that interesting. BUT I have never ever forded the Kennebec and this might be the only time I ever try it. So basically it boils down to: Because I want to.
Dan Bruce is mentioned several times in the book "Me and The Boy" by Paul Hemphill. The book is about Hemphill and his son attempting to hike the AT in 1984. Hemphill and Dan Bruce both lived in Atlanta at the time, and kept running into each other as they planned their respective hikes...Dan Bruce at the time was still planning his first thru-hike.
In one part of the book, Dan Bruce and Mr. Hemphill were talking about Dan's "ministry" as they walked through the Shenandoahs.
I'll have to dig the book out of storage to get the exact quotes.
Given the above, it's not surprising that Dan Bruce's new mission would be about religion and the Bible.
By the way, I aint trying to stir the pot here. I just thought that Mr. Hemphill's book shows an interesting side of Dan Bruce before he thru-hiked for the first time.
Also, in case you're wondering how Mr. Hemphill and Mr. Bruce found themselves hiking together. The Hemphills had a blow-up in the Shenandoahs and came home. Dan offered to drive them back to the Shenandoahs and hike with them for a few days.
I don't particularly feel a need to follow any blazes - I want to do my hike my way since I may only do an AT thru once. I'm already going to skip the first 230 something miles and use the BMT instead (making my dang walk longer) and since I have ridden a canoe before on a river - it doesn't sound that interesting. BUT I have never ever forded the Kennebec and this might be the only time I ever try it. So basically it boils down to: Because I want to.
That's cool. I thought the canoe was for safety, not about having an interesting ride in a canoe.
I like LW's answer, why wait around. As a confirmed section hiker, I have a couple of years to decide how to cross and I may just decide when I get there.
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 16:18
I am sure it is about safety. But I realize there is an accepted risk in everything. This is a risk I believe I can accept.
I am sure it is about safety. But I realize there is an accepted risk in everything. This is a risk I believe I can accept.
And I am sure one look at the river will tell you if you still want to accept the risk. At least that is how I plan to finalize my decision. :cool:
smokymtnsteve
10-02-2007, 16:40
safety is overrated, and a matter of perspective,
the trail to my cabin is more dangerous than the AT, esp at -40 F ;)
The Weasel
10-02-2007, 16:42
Steve ---
Glad to see you here. Bad news: Hacksaw has accused you of decency. Sorry to be the one to tell you.
TW
back to UJ's and the companion and ATC. ALDHA should get out of the guidebook business. Let ATC do it alone.
As long as ATC continues to provide it for free, I'm ok with that. :D
The Old Fhart
10-02-2007, 16:46
SGT Rock-"But I want to learn how to ford the Kennebeck. LWolf answered, I'd like to hear Warren's answer too."
Actually we've all seen WD's answer in other threads. I’ve got to pretty much agree with Appalachian Tater on not getting Kennebec crossing information from WD because Warren has an agenda and you'll never get a straight answer from him. It would be like asking John Dillinger for information on banks.:eek:
All you have to do is check the past threads on WB to find WD telling TJ that the ‘traditional” way to cross the Kennebec was to ford it and Warren said something to the effect that “I was there, you weren’t” to try to discredit TJ’s correct version. It wasn’t until I posted the information from the journals of most of the early thru hikers where almost every one told how they took a boat, raft, or canoe across; and I quoted the 1936 thru the present A.T. guidebooks where they gave information on getting a ride across that Warren sulked off because he no longer could support his fabricated and false history of crossing the Kenebec. I also recall a well-known A.T. thru hiker bragged about fording the Kennebec with his pre-teen kids until there was an uproar from other posters claiming child abuse.
If you want to get accurate information about fording the Kennebec, get it from The Ferryman who unquestionablely knows more about that section of the river than any one else-period. Steve has repeatedly stated the releases upstream are not on any absolute schedule and you could find the water rising rapidly when you were midstream any time of the day. There are journal entries where some thrus who were trying to ford were caught and were just able to swim out plus Steve has related horror stories as well. I can tell you from personal experience that even under good conditions and low water it is like walking across about 75 yards of greased bowling balls that under water where you can't see them so it is pretty slow going. Yes, I know it can be done but I think you gotta remember what Dirty Harry's said:"Do you feel lucky today?" "Well, do you punk?" ;)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:08
oh for crissakes fhart. it ain't that bad at all. :rolleyes:
SGT Rock
10-02-2007, 17:11
No ****, especially if Wolf can do it.
The Old Fhart
10-02-2007, 17:14
Lone Wolf-"oh for crissakes fhart. it ain't that bad at all.:rolleyes:" Well, I was sober when I crossed.:D
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:15
Well, I was sober when I crossed.:D
well, so was i. you're just, well, old
for me it's like waiting on a bus if you're at the station early. just walk across.
Great answer. I like it.
just walk across.
On top of the water? Or will you turn it into whine first? ;)
Wait, does that mean you walk to your destination instead of taking the bus LW? Fantastic! You are a real walker now.
Kirby
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:17
On top of the water? Or will you turn it into whine first? ;)
wine? yes. whine is for the weenies who've never done it yet preach how dangerous it is. :)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:20
Wait, does that mean you walk to your destination instead of taking the bus LW? Fantastic!
yup. buses are like hostels and canoes. they're crowded, smelly and tippy and not worth the wait
The Old Fhart
10-02-2007, 17:25
Lone Wolf-"well, so was i. you're just, well, old"Well, so will you be one day, if you're as carefully as I am.;)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:26
if you're as carefully as I am.;)
ok. makes sense. :rolleyes:
The Weasel
10-02-2007, 17:27
Kirb --
They don't have such contrivances in Damascus.
TW
Kirb --
They don't have such contrivances in Damascus.
TW
With respect, it's Kirby, I hate Kirb. Damascus would be little without the Appalachian Trail going through its backyard.
Kirby
Kirb --
They don't have such contrivances in Damascus.
The "Lone" in "Lone Wolf" means he doesn't like sharing. Anything. Meals, shelters, buses, canoes.
I like to trout fish and one of my more productive spots used to be (but not any more-it doesn't support a healthy trout population any more)on the downstream side of Buford Dam which holds back Lake Lanier(whats left of it-BAD drought). I have scurried for my life several times when the release didn't match the posted schedule. First time I was slow to respond to the horn and was almost swept away by a five foot wall of FAST water. That's a scary feeling and one that I don't care to repeat. I would think anyone who has ever been caught out like that would agree, but I could be wrong.
Having never crossed the Kennebec I think crossing with Steve would be an interesting experience, but after the first time I would probably not wait around for the boat.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:41
With respect, it's Kirby, I hate Kirb. Damascus would be little without the Appalachian Trail going through its backyard.
Kirby
how would you know that? ever been here? so it's big now that the AT is here? what you talkin' bout willis?
The Old Fhart
10-02-2007, 17:41
_terrapin_-"The "Lone" in "Lone Wolf" means he doesn't like sharing. Anything." Actually, Lone Wolf is quite outgoing and generous, even to me.:D
Nightwalker
10-02-2007, 17:41
I am sure it is about safety. But I realize there is an accepted risk in everything. This is a risk I believe I can accept.
As Argh-n-Argh would say: "you must hate the trail." ;)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:42
he doesn't like sharing. Anything. Meals, shelters, buses, canoes.
or motel rooms
how would you know that? ever been here?
Nope, tat was a 100% assumption, I am sure there are ways to find out though, look at economic trends for the town for the last 100 years and see where they start to grow, if they were already not growing.
Kirby
Nightwalker
10-02-2007, 17:45
The "Lone" in "Lone Wolf" means he doesn't like sharing. Anything. Meals, shelters, buses, canoes.
You don't even know the guy.
With respect, it's Kirby, I hate Kirb. Damascus would be little without the Appalachian Trail going through its backyard.
Kirby
Kirby, with all due respect, it's the Virginia Creeper that brings the people and the dollars to town. The AT certainly contributes, but the rail trail is the big draw year round.
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:49
Nope, tat was a 100% assumption, I am sure there are ways to find out though, look at economic trends for the town for the last 100 years and see where they start to grow, if they were already not growing.
Kirby
hikers are cheap. they don't spend money. the Creeper Trail riders spend 20 more times the $$ hikers do in this town. fact.
You don't even know the guy.
And you "know" that, how? ;)
Lone Wolf
10-02-2007, 17:50
You don't even know the guy.
yeah he does, and he's right.
Steve ---
Glad to see you here. Bad news: Hacksaw has accused you of decency. Sorry to be the one to tell you.
TW
Tattletale!
The Weasel
10-02-2007, 18:13
Tattletale!
Snorrer!!!
Snorrer!!!
Weasel!!!!!!!!!
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 18:49
Nope, tat was a 100% assumption, I am sure there are ways to find out though, look at economic trends for the town for the last 100 years and see where they start to grow, if they were already not growing.
Kirby
That's going to go in one ear and out the other.
Just so you know, Kirby, all of the people who post here whom I have met were great people regardless of how they act here. You'll meet many of them and will likely agree that one of the unexpected pleasures of hiking the A.T. is meeting so many nice people of all ages from all over the place.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 18:52
It would be like asking John Dillinger for information on banks.:eek:
The Old Fhart, I know it was an unintentional slight, but you owe Mr. Dillinger an apology for the rude comparison.
The Old Fhart, I know it was an unintentional slight, but you owe Mr. Dillinger an apology for the rude comparison.
Tater,
Any regular reader of these forums knows your feelings about Warren Doyle. Although you are entitled to your opinion, your repeated (and unprovoked) jabs at WD, (or anyone) are not becoming.
Jack Tarlin
10-02-2007, 19:10
Roland:
Mr. Doyle's false and ill-informed comments in Post #160, above, were not particularly becoming either.
If some ill will blows Mr. Doyle's way, Roland, it is some of his posts here that causes them to blow.
Roland:
Mr. Doyle's false and ill-informed comments in Post #160, above, were not particularly becoming either.
If some ill will blows Mr. Doyle's way, Roland, it is some of his posts here that causes them to blow.
Jack,
I'm not defending Warren Doyle or his posts. I don't know the man, any more than I know you.
My point was that Tater has offered helpful information in the past. His own reputation would be better served if continued to contribute in a positive way, as opposed to taking cheap shots at Warren Doyle, or anyone else.
Appalachian Tater
10-02-2007, 19:22
Roland, it is true that my last comment was unnecessary and unbecoming.
Just so you know, I have never met Mr. Doyle, either; my opinion of his behavior has been formed based on what he posts on this website.
For instance, look at this post he made today. Read it, then look at the thread that it's in.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=417641&postcount=40
This is a good example of why I do not hold him in high esteem.
smokymtnsteve
10-02-2007, 19:28
Steve ---
Glad to see you here. Bad news: Hacksaw has accused you of decency. Sorry to be the one to tell you.
TW
why would he say something like that about me? ..
next thang you know folks will be saying I'm a fine christian feller;)
warren doyle
10-02-2007, 19:28
Although I have posted directions for fording the Kennebec safely a few times before on WhiteBlaze, I will post them again due to Sgt. Rock's request. My advice is based on my safely fording the Kennebec with and w/o a backpack, alone and with others, about three dozen times over the last 34 years.
Some disclaimers:
This advice is only good for June, July, August, and September since those are the months I have forded. These four months coincide with the same time the majority of NOBO's/SOBO's will reach the Kennebec.
Only ford early in the morning (before 8am preferably) except after torrential rainfall in the upriver watershed. (While NOBO, to get to the river early, I forsake the pancakes at Harrison's Pierce Pond Camps for the AYCE Breakfast Buffet at the rafting company on Rt. 201.)
Only ford if you can see the rockbars (about 200 yds. upriver) extending anywhere from 50-75% across the river channel.
Ford with your hiking footwear.
Reach the river. Put your foot in the river where the trail goes into the river. Walk upriver along the riverbank until you get parallel with the rock bars.
Unfasten your waist belt and loosen your shoulder straps. Make sure the bottom part of your backpack (contents) are waterproofed. Have one sturdy hiking pole for balance.
Proceed along the rockbars/riffles until the remaining river channel (about 40-50' across). Rest before atempting this river channel. Expect water from knee to crotch high depending on your height and small 'holes' in the rocky river bottom.
Celebrate the fact that you have crossed the Kennebec safely under your own foot/leg power.
Climb up the steep bank on the other side and go southbound on the AT where the trail comes out of the river (about 300-400') and put your foot in the river. Then turn around at head north.
Happy, safe fording!
My point was that Tater has offered helpful information in the past. His own reputation would be better served if continued to contribute in a positive way, as opposed to taking cheap shots at Warren Doyle, or anyone else.Yup. No point tarlining anyone,Tater.
Bad chi.
Some can't help it, but I think you have a good soul.