flat feet= bad knees

[earthbound]

So, the apparent solution to the problem is very good insoles, maybe even prescription. Does anybody else have this problem? What type of insoles do you think work the best? When hiking the AT or other long distance trails, how often to you replace your insoles?

The only thing that has caused me problems so far while hiking is my knees, so I want to do everything possible to make them happy.

[Phreak]

Get a good pair of custom inserts. They are pricey but well worth the money.

[Footslogger]

My first question would be ...do you really have flat feet, as the name of this thread states ??

If you do have feet you may well need custom orthotics rather than off-the-shelf types.

Personally, I use and suggest SuperFeet to people who are looking for a quality footbed to support the arch and stabilize the heel. However, SuperFeet have a fairly prominent and firm arch. If you have flat feet they would most likely cause you discomfort.

'Slogger

[earthbound]

Doctors have told me in the past that some of my knee problems are due to my feet being flat. They aren't totally fallen in arches, but they recommended orthotics at some point. I have never hiked with prescription ones. Wouldn't inserts with arch support help with fallen arches? Why would they hurt more than prescription ones?

[Footslogger]

Wouldn't inserts with arch support help with fallen arches? Why would they hurt more than prescription ones?

=================================================

Well, terminology-wise, "inserts" are just thin foam or cork pads placed in the footwear by the manufacturer. They offer little if any support.

A footbed or orthotic is a different animal all together and is most likely what you really need.

A lot depends on the degree to which your arch has already "fallen". If it is fairly recent occurence and involved mainly the muscles you might well be able to use something like the SuperFeet. On the other hand, if your condition is long-standing and the arch ligaments have become lax and stretched, a firmly formed arch support would most likely cause bruising and pain to the mid section of your foot/feet.

Pretty hard to give you any more advice/suggestions without actually seeing your feet. I recommend you do one of two things ...see a good foot doctor and have your feet evaluated ...OR ...go to a reputable outfitter who knows how to properly measure and fit footwear and footbeds.

In the end though you are absolutely correct. It ALL starts with the foot and your gait. Disturbances in your gait will travel north and eventually affect your knees, hips and if left uncorrected the problem could even cause issues with your spine.

'Slogger

[earthbound]

Thanks for the advice! I really don't want to go to a doctor because it will take money directly from my hiking savings account! :D Is there a way to tell by looking at my own feet how flat they are? What if I bought superfeet with the best arch support and then wore them until I started my hike? That way maybe my feet would get used to them. what do you think?

[Mattlikesbikes]

This is my first post but since I have really really bad flat feet I thought I would chime in. I have expensive custom insoles that where made from molds of my feet and I also have Green Superfeet insoles. And to tell you the truth I can not tell too much of a difference between the two . I can not comment on the longevity of the two because I can not hike any considerable distances because of my feet . I am good for around 9-10 miles a day but if the trail is really rocky it is much less before The pain becomes unbearable and I need to set up camp. I have tried a lot of different insoles and If I where you I would try a pair of super feet first for around $40 before I would go with costume insoles. Plus I think Superfeet have a money back guarantee if they do not work for you

[Footslogger]

Is there a way to tell by looking at my own feet how flat they are? What if I bought superfeet with the best arch support and then wore them until I started my hike? That way maybe my feet would get used to them. what do you think?

=============================================

Actually there is a way to assess your own arches. Get some brown wrapping paper ...like the stuff you use to cover boxes when you mail them and lay a large length of it out on the floor. Next, wet the bottoms of your feet with a washcloth and then walk across the paper. Your footprint(s) on the paper will show you exactly how much of the undersurface of your foot actually strikes the sole of your shoe when you walk.

In people with healthy arches there will be a round spot (heel), a fat edge/line which represents the outer edge of the foot and then the "ball(s) of your foot/toes and lastly the tips of your toes.

In people with truly flat feet (a condition known as Pes Planus) the "footprint" left on the paper is literally a solid imprint of the sole of the foot.

In your case it might be worth the $30 some odd dollar investment in a pair of SuperFeet just to see if they are compatible with your current arch configuration. At minimum, the SuperFeet will stabilize your heel and give you a solid heel strike as you begin your stride. At maximum, they will not only stabilize your heel but also will conform to the natural curvature of your feet and keep them from sliding forward in your shoe/boot as you walk.

Good luck ...happy feet are a big part of happy hiking !!

P.S. If you do decide to give SuperFeet a try be sure and get them sized correctly. Do NOT just buy the ones that come closest to the length of your feet. You need them to be the correct size for your heel width AND to have the correct distance from the heel to the arch. Then you trim off the excess so that they fit inside your footwear.

'Slogger

[earthbound]

One more question! Do you need to replace superfeet after hiking so many miles? How often would you replace them? Thanks for the helpful advice!!!

[Footslogger]

One more question! Do you need to replace superfeet after hiking so many miles? How often would you replace them? Thanks for the helpful advice!!!

===========================================

Yes ...they degrade during a long distance hike and sooner of later need to be replaced. I was able to get through then entire AT in 2003 with 3 pair. A thru hike is very punishing on the best of footbeds (and feet and footwear for that matter). A lot depends on your weight (combined weight of you and your pack) and the terrain and the care you take of them. You will get the maximum life out of a pair of SuperFeet by taking them out of your footwear from time to time (every night if you can) and allow them to fully air/dry out.

'Slogger

[Tractor]

Footslogger. Thank you VERY MUCH for posting the brown paper/ wet foot test! I'll try it myself soon & before my next boot/shoe purchase.. t

[kyhiker1]

I too have flat feet(fallen arches)and becomes an issue after long hikes.I didnt realize how bad my feet were until I broke two bones in my right foot during a section hike in the late 80's.Since,I have had several pairs of custom orthotics made,but they dont seem to last very long.The superfeet insoles have made my journies alot more productive with stamina and distance.

[Mother's Finest]

get yourself to a competent CPED asap. www.cpeds.org (http://www.cpeds.org) for one in your area.

everything that FootSlogger told you is correct.

peace
mf

[Mother's Finest]

commercial time.....

absolute best custom orthotic on the market today. made by a lab in Tennessee (so all you good old boys will be happy)

Sole Supports www.solesupports.com (http://www.solesupports.com) only orhotic on the market today made for a persons BODY WEIGHT, FOOT FLEXIBLITY, and ACTIVITY LEVEL.

find a practicioner in your area that casts for this orthotic....they will last you five plus years.

peace
mf

[Spirit Walker]

I've tried to use Superfeet, but they have so little padding under the ball of the foot that they don't work for me. I need some cushion, which the 'good' insoles just don't provide.

[Appalachian Tater]

My feet are completely flat and always have been. They are also very wide. The only time I had any knee problem was pain for a few weeks after my thru-hike. During the hike, I replaced the insoles in my shoes blue Superfeet insoles though I have been told since then that they are made to go over the regular insole and not replace it. They are basically 39 cent pieces of plastic with a thin padding on top. The padding wears but the plastic does not wear noticeably. I used the same pair the whole hike. This summer I hiked for a few weeks without the Superfeet and noticed no difference. For walking 4-5 miles around town I usually just wear Timberlands with the funny inserts they come with, or some NB runners.

[Footslogger]

I've tried to use Superfeet, but they have so little padding under the ball of the foot that they don't work for me. I need some cushion, which the 'good' insoles just don't provide.

===========================================

Well for starters ...SuperFeet definitely do NOT work for everyone.

That said, SuperFeet have a new "Orange" model with a strip of padding under the toeline of the footbed.

http://www.summithut.com/catalog/remap/product.asp/pfid/23146/

They are basically the "Green Trim to Fits" with the padding. I haven't used them yet myself but it seems to make sense ...especially if you need extra cushion in that area.

'Slogger

[Mattlikesbikes]

commercial time.....

absolute best custom orthotic on the market today. made by a lab in Tennessee (so all you good old boys will be happy)

Sole Supports www.solesupports.com (http://www.solesupports.com) only orhotic on the market today made for a persons BODY WEIGHT, FOOT FLEXIBLITY, and ACTIVITY LEVEL.

find a practicioner in your area that casts for this orthotic....they will last you five plus years.

peace
mf

How much does a orthotic like that run ? I am at the point where the doctors have told me that there is nothing that can really be done for my feet besides insoles or reconstructive surgery And both doctors that I have seen recommend against surgery . Even with the insoles I have now I am in a lot of pain after 5 miles . I would really like to some distance hikes in the future on the AT but with the way my feet are now It dose not look like that will happen I was told to try some Cherryflex and Glucosamine & Chondroitin supplements to see if they help any. And I am open for other suggestions if anybody has any


Thanks

Matt

[Footslogger]

And I am open for other suggestions if anybody has any

Thanks

Matt
=================================================

Matt ...no one here can give you any absolute answers that would be specific to your foot condition - without seeing it, that is.

One observation though, from your own comment, is that you might do well with incorporating more rest stops (say, every 5 miles or so) when you are hiking. Remove your footwear and massage your feet and elevate them for a bit. NSAID's (like Motrin/Ibuprofen) aren't something you want to take like candy for extended periods but combined with regular rest stops you might be able to extend your hiking range and get more enjoyment/less pain in the long run.

'Slogger

[TOW]

So, the apparent solution to the problem is very good insoles, maybe even prescription. Does anybody else have this problem? What type of insoles do you think work the best? When hiking the AT or other long distance trails, how often to you replace your insoles?

The only thing that has caused me problems so far while hiking is my knees, so I want to do everything possible to make them happy.
I have flat feet and I find that the insole that is already in the boots or trekkers are sufficient. But if you must have insoles then get some Dr. Scholls gel or some Superfeet........

[Mother's Finest]

mattlikesbikes

sent you a pm

peace
mf

[Roots]

Thanx to Footslogger for all the great advice about flat feet. I, too, have the same problem. I am flat-footed and have had knee and back problems in the past. About 3 or 4 months ago I finally broke down and bought a pair of Superfeet(green). At first I didn't think it was going to help, but I stuck with them and have deplenished my 'pains' by at least 3/4ths. They have been a God send. I definitely take the breaks ever so often while hiking. I take off the pack, shoes, and socks, and it does seem to help. If I do seem to have a bad day then I take more breaks. Hopefully all this will help.

[Tennessee Viking]

I got flatest feet around. And just pulled something in my knee. But if you are like me, the insides of my ankles tend to curl in when walking.

Best thing for flat feet on trail are just ordinary insoles with arch supports. Then maybe just a basic insole under that. They are cheap compared to the prescription kind. As long as you switch them out when you go into town, and picking up mail drops. Wouldnt hurt to carry some extras just in case they wear down. Some times the makers insole is so big and uncomfortable, I just tear them out to make more room.

Also, were a real thin sock, then wear regular cotton socks on the outside. This will help prevent sliding feet inside the shoes.

Massage your feet and where crocs or saddles around camp to let your feet rest from swelling

Then get a comfortable knee brace or compression stocking

[EAnderson]

I have had problems in the past with plantar fasciitis, and my pediatrist suggested custom Superfeet insoles. The cork under the heel plate was heated and when my foot was set properly, the whole insole was vacuum sealed against my foot. I used to use New Balance insoles and other more cushioned brands, and honestly thought that I would hate the Superfeet, but they have been great. It took a few days to get used to them, but then I never thought twice about the lack of cushion. The custom fitted Superfeet are more expensive, around $90 or so, but I haven't had problems since I bought them. I have put about 500 miles on them this last year, and I do need to replace them soon, so I would figure 3-4 pair for a thru-hike.

As far as knees, I take glucosamine. It may just be a sugar pill, but I feel a difference.

[Blissful]

Take the time now to find out what works and what doesn't. You don't want to have issues on the trail. I went through all kinds of insoles and finally settled on Spenco Hiker insoles that I replaced every 4 weeks (I was very finicky about that). Superfeet and others hurt my arches too much. And custom orthotics made my hips hurt (believe it or not). They corrected me too much. But you can try out different insoles now and always return them (except of course the custom made ones). I also went with trail runners that corrected my pronation (Brooks).

[Appalachian Tater]

It took a few days to get used to them, but then I never thought twice about the lack of cushion.

I agree. Maybe insoles are like mattresses: the support is more important than the cushioning.

[Dirty Harry]

I really think it comes down to the shoe. I hardly have any arch in my feet as well, but a nice light trail runner is perfect. I have done a 57 mile day in PA, in solomons and felt no pain what so ever. Then did a ten mile day in PA in some asolo mid-wieght hiking boots, and have had some ecrutiatingn pain in those shoes. I stick with the insole that comes with the trail runner. for me nice and flexable and actually less arch in the shoe is perfect. It feels like any shoe i break in on the trail is painfull, but once the insole has compressed a little, it feels much better, almost like the shoe new, as to much arch. Im not shure if that helps, but my foot probs, are gone.