View Full Version : Is it ever ok to tell someone forget it?
Programbo
10-06-2007, 22:40
I know this is a free country and all but has anyone ever seen anyone planning to start a thru-hike and it was just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia, that you just wanted to grab them and shake them and say.."What is your major malfunction?"....If it wasn`t such a huge financial loss and such a big emotional embarrassment I would say let them go and fail but would anyone consider stepping in and just being brutally honest with this person?.....Or is it always better to just let them go and try anyway?
IMHO, it's better to let people figure things out for themselves. If they have a dream, let them follow it and give encouragement.
Never squash somebody's hopes, that's just not kind.
It's not your decision, you have nothing to do with it. :)
I know this is a free country and all but has anyone ever seen anyone planning to start a thru-hike and it was just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia, that you just wanted to grab them and shake them and say.."What is your major malfunction?"....If it wasn`t such a huge financial loss and such a big emotional embarrassment I would say let them go and fail but would anyone consider stepping in and just being brutally honest with this person?.....Or is it always better to just let them go and try anyway?
Well, unless they are a minor child in your custody, you have to let them go and try. You can't stop them, and really, you can't know for sure that they won't make it out of Georgia. Unless of course they are carrying six rolls of toilet paper and mail dropping water to Neels Gap. Then of course there is no hope for them :D
I'm not a fan of brutal honesty myself (total honesty can be done with kindness), but if you make it clear that it is only your opinion, and point out that it will be difficult for them to make it out of Georgia the way they are planning.
SweetAss03
10-06-2007, 23:02
Maybe rather then..."Hey you are never going to make it." You could gather your ideas of ways that would help them make it. I.e. less weight, take this rather than that. Better gear ect.
Gear by no means is going to get you anywhere on the trail... Better gear does help, but only your heart will get you through a thru.
Why do you think they will fail? Many fat, slow, lazy, out-of-shape, in-shape, studs, strange, old, young, men, women, children, cats and dogs have set foot on the AT. Most never make it to the finish. However some...those with nothing more then a whole lot of heart, and single minded dedication keep placing one foot in front of the other and find themselves at this strange place where the trail similply ends.
That was eloquent, SA03. :)
Appalachian Tater
10-06-2007, 23:05
That sounds exactly like me when I started out!
No point in telling them, they're not going to listen to you anyway. Keep your opinion to yourself unless they ask, and then, smile and lie. You don't have perfect predictive powers.
Besides, just the process of getting ready and getting to Springer might benefit them and if they get to Springer they have a chance to get to Katahdin.
Paul Bunyan
10-06-2007, 23:56
Hey, I had tons of people tell me you'll never make it. Personally, i didn't think so either. But I didn't take anyone seriously.
chiefdaddy
10-07-2007, 00:25
SMILE!! I like you, you seem like a cool person in my book :D
CoyoteWhips
10-07-2007, 00:26
Nobody ever accomplished any difficult feat without somebody telling them they couldn't do it.
SweetAss03
10-07-2007, 00:48
Well if one word was to describe me Smile it would have to be eloquent!
Some are self driven...some need outside motivators.
There are times when you have to tell people to "get off their a@@ and pick up their sh#$ and get moving." That is life. The down side to this is that more and more people when told to "get off their a@@ and pick up their sh#$ and get moving" respond with... snivel, snivel.. "can you do it for me?" Oh how I LOVE Bill Glasser and Relaity Therapy.
Tennessee Viking
10-07-2007, 00:59
I heard a story earlier this year about a guy who was going to pull a cart of gear on the trail.
~....If it wasn`t such a huge financial loss and such a big emotional embarrassment I would say let them go and fail but would anyone consider stepping in and just being brutally honest with this person?.....Or is it always better to just let them go and try anyway?
Unless you can look into their heart, you cannot accurately predict whether or not they will complete the trail. Save yourself "a big emotional embarrassment", and reserve your expert judgement.
If you're truly concerned about this person, make them aware of informational resources about the Trail. WB would be a good place to start.
Most never make it to the finish. However some...those with nothing more then a whole lot of heart and single-minded dedication keep placing one foot in front of the other until they find themselves at this strange place where the trail simply ends.
Sounds like someone I know.
Hey, I had tons of people tell me you'll never make it. Personally, i didn't think so either. But I didn't take anyone seriously.
I told you yours would be the greatest hike in history, but there was one thing I deliberately didn't tell you. It would fall just short of mine.;)
Minny Smith taught me that the answer to this question is no. I didn't think he had a snowball's chance in hell to reach Bly Gap, much less Katahdin. Good for him!
hopefulhiker
10-07-2007, 09:02
Many people in the group I first started out with thought that I was less likely to suceed than some others.. But as it turned out I made it and many of the others didn't.... I think it is wrong to discourage someone.. Let them find out for themselves.. You can start out out of shape and painfully work yourself into shape...
oldfivetango
10-07-2007, 09:06
I mention this only because you brought it up.
I would not discourage someone from trying because they
want to harry an Igloo cooler and a two burner Coleman,
provided they are going alone.They will figure it out.
Maybe you could direct the person to whom you refer
to join WB and get some insight as to what gear and
clothing to bring etc.
But I will admit I did cull a potential hiking partner once
because he was adamant about bringing a beer cooler with
wheels!:D
Oldfivetango
Short answer: I agree with most here. Offer to give advise (don't force it on them), offer to take 'em out for a shakedown, and stress the need for them to remain flexible - that will get them as far as they can or want to go.
Two words...Minnesota & Smith
I would help and support this person, or say nothing at all. There is nothing to gain from suggesting they forget it. You do not know what is in their heart, and hiking is about heart, not brains or brawn.
buckowens
10-07-2007, 10:07
I found this to be a very thought provoking question. My answer has come through years of observation and experience as a Trooper and a Military Pilot. In many cases I have seen that the most squared away guy/gal that everyone respects on a day to day basis failed miserably when the going gets tough. Especially when you throw in being shot at, using night vision or in-flight emergencies.
Now, I would never say the trail is that bad, but the mental aspects are similar. To push through something when your body is telling you to quit. Either because of pain or from self preservation. I would almost bet on a slightly befuzzled hiker as opposed to a gram counting, all the best equipment using person anytime.
Of course it is all a crap shoot as you can never be sure how folks will be until they get on their way. Some of the best talkers are the worst performers IMHO. I would agree that an offer of help is sufficient and they will figure out the rest as they go.
dessertrat
10-07-2007, 12:27
I'll bet a lot of people would have told Grandma Gatewood to just forget it.
A lot of ordinary people with a lot of determination and patience have made it to the top of Katahdin, while a lot of gym-fit woosies have dropped out in days.
Just a Hiker
10-07-2007, 12:45
It's their dream and their money......so I say let them hike their own hike. Even if they don't make it out of Georgia (or Maine), they will have gained something that they wouldn't have gotten sitting at home wondering if their life could be better. Take care,
Just Jim
dessertrat
10-07-2007, 12:50
On second thought, most of the things that I've accomplished that I'm most proud of I accomplished because someone expressed doubt that I could do it . . . if this person has that type of personality, go tell him/her to just forget it, and that might push 'em through the hard times.
Glad the Wright Brothers didn't listen to the folks that called them fools and money and time wasters :)
Mother Nature
10-07-2007, 13:37
Having the opportunity of meeting tons of new NOBO thrus every year here in GA I have seen some strangely outfitted and hopelessly out of shape people on the trail. Me included. LOL.
About 80% of the folks are still smiling but obviously struggling. Some are grumbling and growling and not sure if they want to really do this thing after the first hour or day or mile. Many sort it out and make a decision by the time they hit Neels Gap or Hiawassee or Franklin.
Anyone that knows me know that I am not shy and will strike up a conversation with anyone I run into in the woods. If in the conversation the person complains or seems to be asking for advice or suggestions I will offer what help I can. Other wise I just wish them well.
Only one time that I can recall did my "Mother Nature" voice really become stern. It was a bitterly cold and wet night at the first shelter north of Hot Springs. A young fellow arrived after everyone had settled down for the night. The folks in the shelter would not let him in and he found himself with no dry place to sleep. Without a tent, tarp or ground cloth he slept under the picnic table in a hollow spot in his flannel Coleman sleeping bag. Leaving my tent in the morning I discovered him shivering and his lips were blue. He had tears in his eyes as he walked over to me (the old grandmother looking person around) and asked what he should do. I told him that he needed to immediately get into dry clothing for starters and have a hot drink. He said he wasn't carrying any extra clothing and wasn't carrying a stove. :eek: I told him to hot foot it back to town, get that sleeping bag dry and start carrying wet weather protection. The last I saw of him he was fairly running back to town to get warm shouting back at me.. Yes mame!
warraghiyagey
10-07-2007, 13:51
There is no failure in stepping foot on the trail. If a person wants to do it a good friend will support them in whatever way they can.
Trekkngirl and I were on a small local trip here in Nashville. We wre at Mongomery Bell State Park on a pretty easy, sheltered trip. When we first began the trip, we met some folks being dropped off who were unloading suitcases and cases of water. No real "gear" in sight, i.e. backpacks, etc. And, these people were apparently part of a group of folks on a religious/weight loss regimen of some sort.
It got down to 24 degrees that night at our shelter and it was about all my poor 35 degree bag could do to keep up.
We ran across this ame group of folks camped a shelter away. They had carted the suitcases and cased water and supplies the short mileage to this shelter. They had huge pillows, blankets, the aforementioned suitcases, all manner of non backpacking paraphenalia.
BUT, they had made it to where they were going. And they had obviously survived a pretty cold night with the gear they had.
They asked us for directions to a shortcut out of the park to obtain fuel of some sort to cook with. I think they were supposed to stay out for a week.
Mind you, this was not a park where anyone was a great distance from assisitance. We gave them our best possible advice and moved on.
We began to run across the debris of their trip in. Bottles of water, plastic cups and utensils, a bag of stakes, napkins. It was a little humerous and I'm not sure whether we felt sorry for them or a wee bit protective but we stopped at the first Ranger residence we could find and alerted the Ranger to the possibility of these folks needing a watchful eye.
Jim Adams
10-07-2007, 20:35
Well, unless they are a minor child in your custody, you have to let them go and try. You can't stop them, and really, you can't know for sure that they won't make it out of Georgia. Unless of course they are carrying six rolls of toilet paper and mail dropping water to Neels Gap. Then of course there is no hope for them :D
I'm not a fan of brutal honesty myself (total honesty can be done with kindness), but if you make it clear that it is only your opinion, and point out that it will be difficult for them to make it out of Georgia the way they are planning.
Yeah, but I kept going anyway!:D
...and stop laughing...the toilet paper was lighter to carry than the water...my momma didn't raise no fool!:banana
geek
stranger
10-07-2007, 21:38
Someone said it earlier, but the very fact that they are preparing for a thru-hike is a hell of alot more than most people ever do.
In 1995 I left Springer very well prepared, fit, experienced, had almost memorized the thru-hikers handbook, had $3600 saved, etc...I had hiked the Long Trail the year before, I was as prepared as anyone and more prepared than hundreds. I had no time limit, good savings, a light pack and the best gear at that time. I had great support from my family and friends, and good outdoor industry contacts.
I quit in Troutville that year.
Yet some of the people I met in Georgia that looked like they had no reason to be on the trail completed the trail that year. Although your odds are much less likely without extensive preparation, knowledge and experience, it's one person we are talking about here...and they can certainly make it.
The key here is desire...I've only quit hiking when the desire faded, and that has only happened once but it did in fact happen. If this person has a strong desire to hike the AT, they will most likely complete their journey in my opinion. Although we may think we are looking out for our mates...maybe we are holding them back with our good intentions.
Programbo,
Who gave you the authority to decide if this person can hike the trail? Even the most competent hiker can break an ankle or get lime disease or have a heart attack and end up off the trail. All a person has to do is endure, putting one foot in front of the other. Hiking really doesn't take alot of high intelligence and expensive gear, the cavemen handled it pretty good with animal skins and clubs. You walk, eat, sleep and start over. Being experienced and prepared will make it more comfortable but it isn't that difficult a concept.
I don't know you but you seem to be much like my brother. He has no patience with anyone he preceives as less intelligent or capable than himself. All that is is a coverup for insecurity. Why don't you do it again in 2008 and show us all how it's done, so we can do it right....
I may not make it all the way in 2008 because I'm fat or inexperienced or hell, I might decide I don't want to finish but when I'm an old lady in a rocking chair on my front porch I won't regret that I never tried.
AW
Two Speed
10-08-2007, 06:20
I think Mother Nature hit the nail on the head. In my opinion the only time you really bark at someone is when they're doing something that's gonna get someone hurt. Failing that, sit back, watch the fun and if you can do something helpful, do it.
While we're telling war stories, a friend and I were hiking the Roan Highlands last August. Four kids came along with a truly strange assortment of hiking gear; some Wal-Mart stuff, some military surplus, etc, but the "winner" was the guy with the huge spaghetti pot on his head. So big he had to wrap a bath towel around his head to keep the pot from rattling!
Hey Amazonwoman, lighten up a bit. Programbo just asked everyone's opinion. It appears everyone agrees that we should offer help and encourage people without passing judgement. We will still have our own personal opinion as to the the probablility of success (as witnessed the examples given), but this should not be used to try to discourage anyone from attempting. Programbo's question was legit, and we have all wondered the same thing at times. Just seems that most here are agreed on what our response should be - this is good.
Don't shoot someone for asking a legit question for discussion sake.
warraghiyagey
10-08-2007, 10:49
Programbo,
Who gave you the authority to decide if this person can hike the trail? . . .
I don't know you but you seem to be much like my brother. He has no patience with anyone he preceives as less intelligent or capable than himself. All that is is a coverup for insecurity. Why don't you do it again in 2008 and show us all how it's done, so we can do it right....
I may not make it all the way in 2008 because I'm fat or inexperienced or hell, I might decide I don't want to finish but when I'm an old lady in a rocking chair on my front porch I won't regret that I never tried.
AW
Amen Girl, well said. See you on the trail.:) :) :)
SOB08
I may not make it all the way in 2008 because I'm fat or inexperienced or hell, I might decide I don't want to finish but when I'm an old lady in a rocking chair on my front porch I won't regret that I never tried.
There's that. But then there may be people who will be haunted or ashamed by their "failure," having tried something that was never meant to be. The more they've invested, the more that "failure" will hurt.
warraghiyagey
10-08-2007, 11:12
I know this is a free country and all but has anyone ever seen anyone planning to start a thru-hike and it was just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia, that you just wanted to grab them and shake them and say.."What is your major malfunction?"....If it wasn`t such a huge financial loss and such a big emotional embarrassment I would say let them go and fail but would anyone consider stepping in and just being brutally honest with this person?.....Or is it always better to just let them go and try anyway?
Hey Amazonwoman, lighten up a bit. Programbo just asked everyone's opinion. . . Programbo's question was legit,
Don't shoot someone for asking a legit question for discussion sake.
The legitimicy of the questioned is dissoved in such phraseology as
" just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia,"
and "and such a big emotional embarrassment,"
oh and "I would say let them go and fail."
It wasn't a guestion. This person already had their mind obviously locked up and is already past the consideration point of less than gracefully pissing on a 'friends' dreams. I've been fortunate to have the other kind. And I've startred two thrus these past two years and haven't completed them.
But at the start of each I was around people that I was in waaay better physical shape than. And they finished. And I didn't. So I try again.
But a graceful friends' honesty would see their friend through to the trailhead with wishes of peace for them (and that is the only honesty that can move a human to a better place).
If your friend sees the top of Springer, they've already won.
Or maybe you see through this that you are confusing honesty for opinion. Go help your friend. There will never be a better time than this.
Peace
Yeah, but I kept going anyway!:D
...and stop laughing...the toilet paper was lighter to carry than the water...my momma didn't raise no fool!:banana
geek
That's called "good planning".<G>
But didn't you carry a cat too? And what ever happened to Ziggy(?)?
the goat
10-08-2007, 14:15
i say tell 'em whatever the hell you want. it's just your opinion & most people respect an honest opinion if delivered properly (except amazon woman maybe:D ).
be prepared that your opinion mat actually have the opposite effect, and may make the person in question even more determined to hike (in order to prove you wrong.)
Miss Janet
10-08-2007, 14:39
I have seen a lot of hikers motivated to keep hiking BECAUSE some person told them they didn't have a snowballs chance in hades... I bet you could say it nicer though!
sherrill
10-08-2007, 15:04
I can't recall anyone flat out saying he wouldn't make it, but I remember some giving odds that Minnesota Smith wouldn't. Made for an entertaining read if you couldn't get out on the trail.
shelterbuilder
10-08-2007, 16:23
When most folks say, "You won't make it", what they really mean is "I couldn't make it if I was taking all of that crap". And I agree that being "brutally honest" with someone may make them go and do it just to prove you wrong. But by talking to them and explaining WHY something works better than something else, not only have you tried to get your point across - and made yourself feel better - but you may have increased the other guy's chances of success.
Be honest - not brutal.:D
Blue Jay
10-08-2007, 17:11
Hey Amazonwoman, lighten up a bit. Programbo just asked everyone's opinion. It appears everyone agrees that we should offer help and encourage people without passing judgement. We will still have our own personal opinion as to the the probablility of success (as witnessed the examples given), but this should not be used to try to discourage anyone from attempting. Programbo's question was legit, and we have all wondered the same thing at times. Just seems that most here are agreed on what our response should be - this is good.
Don't shoot someone for asking a legit question for discussion sake.
Actually no, his question was clearly to demonstrate his vast knowledge of what it takes to thru. This is a Dessert Lobster type of question used to denegrate novice hikers. I'd be willing to bet when programmo started he was as clueless as the rest of us. I have found, time and time again, that those who appear to be the least likely to make it in the eyes of programmos are actually the most likely.
Blue Jay
10-08-2007, 17:14
Glad the Wright Brothers didn't listen to the folks that called them fools and money and time wasters :)
You are exactly correct. Almost all great human advances came with programmos biting at their heels.
warraghiyagey
10-08-2007, 17:14
The legitimicy of the questioned is dissoved in such phraseology as
" just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia,"
and "and such a big emotional embarrassment,"
oh and "I would say let them go and fail."
It wasn't a guestion. This person already had their mind obviously locked up and is already past the consideration point of less than gracefully pissing on a 'friends' dreams. I've been fortunate to have the other kind. And I've startred two thrus these past two years and haven't completed them.
But at the start of each I was around people that I was in waaay better physical shape than. And they finished. And I didn't. So I try again.
But a graceful friends' honesty would see their friend through to the trailhead with wishes of peace for them (and that is the only honesty that can move a human to a better place).
If your friend sees the top of Springer, they've already won.
Or maybe you see through this that you are confusing honesty for opinion. Go help your friend. There will never be a better time than this.
Peace
Actually no, his question was clearly to demonstrate his vast knowledge of what it takes to thru. This is a Dessert Lobster type of question used to denegrate novice hikers. I'd be willing to bet when programmo started he was as clueless as the rest of us. I have found, time and time again, that those who appear to be the least likely to make it in the eyes of programmos are actually the most likely.
Exactly.:) :)
Well, I don't recall programbo actually spelling out his criterion for deciding who would make it and who wouldn't. I admit that I personally am a terrible judge of that.
I believe it's fair to tell folks it's going to be hard as heck, and often unpleasant, and that the odds in general are not good. Ultimately folks make their own decisions and have to take responsibility for them. But I'm sympathetic to the issues faced by "failed" thru hikers. It can be a huge letdown.
Appalachian Tater
10-08-2007, 18:52
I don't think you could stand at Springer and determine which first-time thru-hikers will finish with any degree of certainty. Maybe some of the repeat offenders will weigh in on this. Seems like someone may have surveyed characteristics of successful thru's but I just can't remember and they wouldn't be perfect predictors, anyway. Even half-way up Katahdin there are a few who do not make it all the way to the top to complete their thru-hike.
Aren't you the same guy that sez anyone with less than a 4.5 lb full frame pack is destined for failure?
:-?
Save it!
;)
I'm sorry... that sounded rude! :eek:
PLEASE save it! ;)
I've heard it said that Warren Doyle is pretty errr... frank and straightforward about people's prospects for a successful thru-hike. Often these tales include (or are told by) the distraught "victim" of his appraisal.
Appalachian Tater
10-08-2007, 20:18
I've heard it said that Warren Doyle is pretty errr... frank and straightforward about people's prospects for a successful thru-hike. Often these tales include (or are told by) the distraught "victim" of his appraisal.
And to him I would give a big raspberry and a fig.
Thanks guys for sticking up for me. See you on the trail. Just to be fair, everyone that I've ever met from this site has been great and supportive.
Programbo, I imagine that deep down you are worried about your 'friend's' safety and emotional wellbeing. Get out there with them and do some prelim hikes and try education not condemnation.
AW
IMHO: you can NEVER tell if someone is going to make it or not. I have been hiking the AT in sections for 10 years now, I have seen people that I thought were at both ends of the "They can/can not do it" spectrum. I usually get it wrong. Had I made the "dire prediction" with some, & alienated them, I think I would have felt bad, especially when they got to the end & said "I told you so, now leave me alone!"
Have seen people that were: strong hikers, had "good gear", a good mental attitude, in other words all the right stuff! They just "ran out of gas!". So, let them try: That what dosen't kill us makes us stronger!
Jack Tarlin
10-09-2007, 12:22
Well, back in 1948, they thought Earl Shaffer was crazy, too.
I've met people whose first night in the woods, ever, was on top of Springer Mountain, and they had great.....and successful......thru-hikes.
Nobody is capable of discovering what they're capable of doing until they actually set out and see for themselves.
shelterbuilder
10-09-2007, 12:24
Well, back in 1948, they thought Earl Shaffer was crazy, too.
I've met people whose first night in the woods, ever, was on top of Springer Mountain, and they had great.....and successful......thru-hikes.
Nobody is capable of discovering what they're capable of doing until they actually set out and see for themselves.
Amen, Jack!
dessertrat
10-09-2007, 13:03
I really do think that "failure" on the trail, short of injuring oneself, is nowhere but in one's mind. Not getting to Maine is not a problem, if you enjoy the trip as far as you go.
The endurance athlete who wept all the way across New England just because he "had to get to Katahdin", in my book, was more of a failure than a middle-aged guy who hikes one summer from Georgia to Harper's Ferry and has a hell of a good time, then goes home.
Programbo
10-10-2007, 21:22
Programbo, Who gave you the authority to decide if this person can hike the trail? .......I don't know you but you seem to be much like my brother. He has no patience with anyone he preceives as less intelligent or capable than himself. AW
That`s a pretty broad and general assumption based on my thoughts about ONE particular person out of the thousands who head out every year...I`m sorry so many people are totally misunderstanding my question as it was vague as to why I think this particular person shouldn`t be out there....I hear a lot of people saying that many have been told they wouldn`t make it and yet they did...In that case then obviously whoever said they wouldn`t make it didn`t have all the facts or didn`t know the person they were judging as well as they thought..I can`t believe that no one has seen people heading out who simply had no chance..Period.. Sometimes in life it`s obvious..When I went thru boot camp long ago there were 2 guys in my platoon who never ever should have been signed up by a recuiter..They were destined to fail and no amount of encouragement or help was going to change that..They really didn`t want to be there and they really didn`t want to try or work hard, and what they were expecting was so out of touch with the reality of the situation it almost was cartoonish...Anyway I`ll keep my opinion to myself and let them head out there......By the way for the person who said..."Aren't you the same guy that sez anyone with less than a 4.5 lb full frame pack is destined for failure?"..... I have never said any such thing..I know people hike the trail everyday with ultra-light packs quite successfully..I HAVE said that a heavier pack is a better choice for most everyone than a 2 pound pack is....Your weight will feel lighter and you will conserve more energy and walk in a more natural manner with a 5 pound pack with proper suspension than it will in one of those 2 pound stuff sacks with shoulder straps
warraghiyagey
10-10-2007, 21:48
. . . it was just so obvious the person was totally clueless and had NO chance of even making it out of Georgia, that you just wanted to grab them and shake them and say.."What is your major malfunction?"....If it wasn`t such a huge financial loss and such a big emotional embarrassment
That`s a pretty broad and general assumption based on my thoughts about ONE particular person out of the thousands who head out every year...I`m sorry so many people are totally misunderstanding my question as it was vague as to why I think this particular person shouldn`t be out there....
Having trouble seeing the 'vague' of which you now infer.:confused:
Programbo
10-11-2007, 07:50
Having trouble seeing the 'vague' of which you now infer.
Well that could explain a lot :p .......Obviously I`m not vague in that I don`t think this person should be attempting a thru..I was vague in explaining why I didn`t think they should
Appalachian Tater
10-11-2007, 08:12
Instead of discouraging them, why don't you just tell them what they will have to overcome in order to be successful? You don't even have to say that you think these things are their weaknesses.
warren doyle
10-11-2007, 14:20
Over the last 18 years, I have had about two hundred people go through the Appalachian Trail Institute when they were in the planning stages for their thru-hikes.
I have found when people are aware and accept their physical diasbilities (i.e. Bill Irwin (blindness) and Mike Schank 'Gutless' (no stomach due to cancer)) they have a greater chance of success.
However, there have been three or four people that were in an apparent state of denial concerning their physical disabilities (ie. chronic lung disease; no cartilage in their hip socket) or psychological limitations ( high level of comfort; low threshold of pain; and/or controlling/combative temperament), who started their hikes regardless only to stop on the aproach trail or by Three Forks/Woody Gap/Neels Gap.
On the last day of the four/five day ATI, those participants who ask me what I think their chances are to complete a thru-hike get an honest assessment on my part. What they do with this advice from then is up to them.
I don't think you could stand at Springer and determine which first-time thru-hikers will finish with any degree of certainty.
Well, if you stand at Springer at about Oct-early December, you can probably tell which 1st time thru-hikers will finish.
Of course, they are the ones who started from Katahdin ~5-7 mos earlier. ;)
OK..enough being a smartass..for now!
shelterbuilder
10-11-2007, 15:49
Over the last 18 years, I have had about two hundred people go through the Appalachian Trail Institute when they were in the planning stages for their thru-hikes.
I have found when people are aware and accept their physical diasbilities (i.e. Bill Irwin (blindness) and Mike Schank 'Gutless' (no stomach due to cancer)) they have a greater chance of success.
However, there have been three or four people that were in an apparent state of denial concerning their physical disabilities (ie. chronic lung disease; no cartilage in their hip socket) or psychological limitations ( high level of comfort; low threshold of pain; and/or controlling/combative temperament), who started their hikes regardless only to stop on the aproach trail or by Three Forks/Woody Gap/Neels Gap.
On the last day of the four/five day ATI, those participants who ask me what I think their chances are to complete a thru-hike get an honest assessment on my part. What they do with this advice from then is up to them.
I think that Warren is right about accepting your limitations (and we all have them - one type or another - some obvious, some not so obvious). Mostly, life in general - and the trail in particular - is a story about finding ways to deal with (or work around) limitations in order to do what you want to do.
Programbo, you never said what you thought your friend's limitations were. I'm curious, what is it that YOU think he's up against?:-?
Nobody ever accomplished any difficult feat without somebody telling them they couldn't do it.Very interesting take on the question.
You are exactly correct. Almost all great human advances came with programmos biting at their heels.
Yes, and also, often the individuals themselves are their worst critics. Like the "Failure thread" going on right now.
I guess I feel that the word 'friend' and the following statements really don't fit into the same sentence After all if the person is a friend, they should be treated as a friend. :)
One of the ideas behind the HenHike next year is encouragement. It's important to encourage each other if you are hiking with a 'friend'. Whose company you are in can make or break a hike. If you are with a whiner who has a self-defeatist attitude, that can surely rub off on you. If you are with someone who gives you that extra push, to take that bad day and give you words of encouragement - it can mean another day or week or month on trail.
From my own experience, I've a had a few cruddy days even on 30 day section hikes, and sometimes a kind word from another hiker on trail gave me the lift I needed to keep going with a better attitude, and a bigger smile :)
Jester2000
10-11-2007, 22:36
Well, back in 1948, they thought Earl Shaffer was crazy, too.
. . .and mostly they thought that because he was crazy. But with all of us crazy in our own crazy way, life's more interesting. And confusing, from a dating point of view.
I obviously don't have as much experience as some, but I have yet to see any correlation between experience and success, or fitness and success, or knowledge and success.
I would be unlikely to tell someone not to try, unless I was concerned that they might present a danger to themselves or others, and even then I would be careful in how I approached it (I'm sure a lot of people told Bill Irwin he would kill himself). But having had a friend die on the trail, I'd feel remiss if I didn't at least bring it up if I was seriously concerned.
But as someone who's made many serious misjudgments concerning the characters of others, I doubt I'd say anything if all I had to say was "I don't think you can do it."
garyhebert
11-13-2007, 19:34
Its all been said above. Eloquently. I used lots of concepts from ultralight hikers (though not all ideas) and hiked 20+ most days-just as I planned. Many discouraged my 20 a day plan as unreallistic. It wasn't. But it didn't come easy. I planned, prepped and practiced and refined my lighter & more functional equipment BEFORE the trip. They werent wrong to give constructive advice. But they didnt know me. I was deteremined. And I knew me.
You can't teach life. All you can do is encourage and offer a few pointers if they'll keep an open mind. And ultimately each of us had to decide what works for them or IF its for them.
Along the way I tried passing along some lightweight wisdom to many. Most listened politely. But I converted few. Maybe an item or two here or there. They had to work it out for themselves. And the 6 other guys I chased, caught up to and utimatley summited with did their own thing. Not the heaviest, but not ultralighters either. And as has been said there are plenty of old, weak folks with generic heavy stuff that have finished. It takes a lot of heart to get er done!
And even those who I know that got off the trail were ok with it. They learned something out there and had a great time. Met some who came back. And made it work on a second attempt. Or a third.
I repeat. You cant teach life. They gotta work it out for themselves. And thats the fun part!
Well i be 65 soon i done it seen it but i learn something new everyday.This has to stop pretty soon there not much room left up there. plus i have a hard time finding it all.;)
I've heard it said that Warren Doyle is pretty errr... frank and straightforward about people's prospects for a successful thru-hike. Often these tales include (or are told by) the distraught "victim" of his appraisal.
I think what Doyle meant is that folks couldn't make it in HIS group, which is a little bit cult-like. He has a high success rate, I expect, because like a strong NCAA coach, he knows what he needs to work with, who will be open to his coaching, and so forth.
I suspect MANY successful thru-hikers would not have made it in his group because we would not have tolerated adhering to his style of hiking or group dynamics. I wouldn't have. Of course when I thru-hiked, I had just gotten out of the Marine Corps and one my greatest joys was NOT having to adhere to someone else's group dynamic.
:sun Oh, somehow, I missed the 3rd page where Warren explained his philosophy.....
Any way, one other issue is how well do you know someone when you first see them? The instance Programbo offered seems fairly off the cuff, as in I see you looking overpacked, out-of-shape, out-of place, etc. That's not enough to go on.
Look at a new platoon in Marine Boot Camp. It's pretty much impossible to judge whether the scrawny kid or the chunky kid or the one with inch-thick glasses will make it. You just can't see inside someone in that instant. Only later can you really know.
Even then, after some Marines have proven to be superstars in boot camp, or MOS school, or garrison, you still don't know just what will happen the first time a shot is fired in anger. The results often surprise you.
Much the same is said for thru-hikers. Near the end of my '99 thru-hike, Pepper asked if I thought she would make it when we met in Georgia. I told her the truth. I couldn't have known. I also reminded her that since we were only in Monson, none of us STILL knew if we were going to make it to Katahdin. :sun
turtle fast
11-14-2007, 00:17
I think a difference needs to be made. I the hiker you run into is obviously overloaded, or out of shape; I think you have to let them learn.. If asked be polite and give some advice. (remember Katz from Brysons book A Walk in the Woods) HOWEVER, if the new hiker is wearing just a fleece jacket with no rain gear and its March and its sleeting, I would definately say something.
Appalachian Tater
11-14-2007, 00:37
HOWEVER, if the new hiker is wearing just a fleece jacket with no rain gear and its March and its sleeting, I would definitely say something.
Perhaps silence would be best for the species if not for the individual.
mikemize
11-14-2007, 00:48
if this person doesn't have any effect on your food/water supply why should you care? if this person just wants to do it his/her way why should you interfere? in my opinion, the most in-shape people will "resign" based on mental issues, and the most mentally focused people will most likely make it based on their willingness to take it one- step- at -a -time...for the rest of us,which is most of us, we'll just have to find a "happy medium"...good luck
minnesotasmith
11-14-2007, 00:48
I can't recall anyone flat out saying he wouldn't make it, but I remember some giving odds that Minnesota Smith wouldn't. Made for an entertaining read if you couldn't get out on the trail.
There WAS some of that, wasn't there? :D
A good friend of mine had a period of time where he went through diaries on Trail Journals, trying to predict who would make it to Katahdin and who would not. He found that he absolutely could not predict those who would finish, and who would not.
To try to predict finishers, I'd say look for their weakest point and strongest asset. If their monetary or time budget is hilariously deficient from what is needed on average, say, only something like an unusual level of physical ability or determination would seem likely to have a chance of compensating for it.
Jan LiteShoe
11-14-2007, 01:10
Ah, but there's such MAGIC that occurs BEFORE that first treadmark is even smushed into the trail. I's an incredible period, and I envy it in every year's crop of dreamers.
I see so much alchemy during the preparation period, when the hopeful are first trying on the idea of thru-hiking for size and enjoring the sheer absolute terrifying insecure thrill of it. After all, they're contemplating blowing up their ordinary life for four to six months. What's not to love?
;-)
This "pre-journey" is really a "journey within a journey," and it's so rich because generally some serious shifts are going on, transitions. Yes, some say thruhiking is "just about walking" (except when it's also more than that).
But it takes alot of major psychic stones to rip yourself out of the familiar bedrock of life routines and head off into unknown and uncertain and certainly profoundly uncomfortable (to say nothing of grimy!) circumstances. I mean, it's just not "done" in most circles. It takes large guts to bust out of routines. It takes energy, desire and vision.
And whether a person makes it past Neel's Gap or not, they've still experienced something few have the courage to do.
Why would anyone deny them that?
And whether a person makes it past Neel's Gap or not, they've still experienced something few have the courage to do.
Why would anyone deny them that?
To keep them from feeling like complete failures if they quit at Neels? :-?
There's something to be said for dreaming... but there's also something to be said for realistic expectations.
The thing that I see in would-be thru-hikers that makes me most doubtful of their prospects for success is unrealistic expectations. People who are floating on a very airy-fairy level, full of reading and daydreaming, but who don't appear to be willing to come down to earth and get out there and HIKE, are very likely to find that the Trail is not what they expected. Overweight, out of shape, lacking experience...all those things can be dealt with. Unmeetable expectations...that's a problem.
Personally, everytime somebody told me I couldn't do something, I went ahead and did it better.
Flush2wice
11-14-2007, 09:55
What about people who have planned a trip, bought gear, told all their friends, made arrangements...... and then start sniveling? I'd say it's Ok to tell them to forget it. They probably want someone to tell them that anyway.
Jan LiteShoe
11-14-2007, 10:25
People who are floating on a very airy-fairy level, full of reading and daydreaming, but who don't appear to be willing to come down to earth and get out there and HIKE, are very likely to find that the Trail is not what they expected.
Ah, but those sorts aren't undertaking the pre-trip shifts I was thinking about.
I know types just like the kind you mention, :)
and they lack the internal energy to rip themselves out of old patterns and routines.
It's just dreamin' then, with no preparation. There's no genuine "pre-journey," intestinally speaking. They are just squeezing out the same old crap.
:)
Patterns and routines are useful, and at the same time can suck the life out of a body that's not careful.
The trail itself is the best teacher. The hard rock of reality, and all that. You just don't want to be in the vicinity when it happens.
:D
No sniveling!
dessertrat
11-14-2007, 11:17
Hey, if Bill Bryson made it 500 miles. . .
I agree with Tater and Minnesota Smith--some of the least likely people make it.
There are some people that I would advise against thru-hiking.
For example, I met a recently laid off man who had a pregnant wife and a two year old child. He thought that this would be a good time to take a thru-hike, since he'd always wanted to do it. Priorities are important--and family is much more important than hiking--which I'm sure he figured out for himself after spending some time/money that could have been put to better use.
Just a Hiker
11-14-2007, 14:13
Ah, but there's such MAGIC that occurs BEFORE that first treadmark is even smushed into the trail. I's an incredible period, and I envy it in every year's crop of dreamers.
I see so much alchemy during the preparation period, when the hopeful are first trying on the idea of thru-hiking for size and enjoring the sheer absolute terrifying insecure thrill of it. After all, they're contemplating blowing up their ordinary life for four to six months. What's not to love?
;-)
This "pre-journey" is really a "journey within a journey," and it's so rich because generally some serious shifts are going on, transitions. Yes, some say thruhiking is "just about walking" (except when it's also more than that).
But it takes alot of major psychic stones to rip yourself out of the familiar bedrock of life routines and head off into unknown and uncertain and certainly profoundly uncomfortable (to say nothing of grimy!) circumstances. I mean, it's just not "done" in most circles. It takes large guts to bust out of routines. It takes energy, desire and vision.
And whether a person makes it past Neel's Gap or not, they've still experienced something few have the courage to do.
Why would anyone deny them that?
Well Put! Also, as some of you have already stated, one can't really tell who will make it to Maine (or Georgia) and who won't. What determines that is inside of a person, and none of us can see that. :D
Just Jim