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woodsy
10-10-2007, 16:41
You might check with S&R organizations in New Hampshire.
They have been very busy lately (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Sudden+turn+in+weather+made+ for+busy+search+and+rescue+teams&articleId=cdcab105-0bbb-465f-aafd-5bc082bc8354)
Good thing the cell phone was invented:rolleyes:for some people anyway.

Jack Tarlin
10-10-2007, 16:46
Great. I see in some cases, they had the wrong clothes, no flashlights, and no maps.

Real smart.

But they had cell phones!

I predict that this is the year someone ends up frozen solid as a mackerel somewhere in New England, kinda looking like Jack Nicholson at the end of "The Shining." Either their cell phone will have failed somehow, or the cavalry will get there too late.

But thanx for sending this along.....very instructive for the idiots who come on here several times a year and insist that A.T. hikers don't need maps. :-?

Phreak
10-10-2007, 17:05
I'd do away with rescue groups. Waste of money, time and effort.

Phreak
10-10-2007, 17:07
very instructive for the idiots who come on here several times a year and insist that A.T. hikers don't need maps. :-?

You'd have to be a real piece of Samsonite to need a map on the AT. :rolleyes:

SGT Rock
10-10-2007, 17:13
You'd have to be a real piece of Samsonite to need a map on the AT. :rolleyes:
I think it would actually be: You would have to be a real piece of Sampsonite to think a map would never be needed on the AT.

The Old Fhart
10-10-2007, 17:13
Phreak-"You'd have to be a real piece of Samsonite to need a map on the AT:rolleyes:" That statement is on the same level of intelligence as the people reported in the article. There is absolutely no excuse for not carrying map and compass and knowing how to use them.

Freeleo
10-10-2007, 17:14
Phreak,

i have a funny story to tell you in november about the AT and a flashlight

j

Mags
10-10-2007, 17:28
I'd do away with rescue groups. Waste of money, time and effort.


That's a rather harsh statement.

Sure, people should have the proper equipment and knowlege. But even the most experienced of us can have an unplanned emergency.

As for "waste of time, money and effort", well tell that to the families whose loved ones have been resecued.

I'm a big proponent of being prepared and taking personal resposibility. But I'm also a big proponnet on helping out people in time of need.

When I walked out a woman (abour 2 miles) who fell face first, split open her lip, broke her nose and sprained her wrist on a local trail, I did not feel like I wasted my effort. Nor did the local SnR group who met us at the trailhead. We all felt good for helping somone.

Just my opinion, YMMV, etc.

shelterbuilder
10-10-2007, 17:31
You'd have to be a real piece of Samsonite to need a map on the AT. :rolleyes:

You may not need a map and compass to navigate the AT, but they sure do come handy when you need to get out to civilization IN A HURRY.

Years ago, I taught beginner's backpacking at a local college - I could never stress enough the necessity of taking the "basic ten" with you whenever you go into the woods. Being prepared to stay out overnight whenever you go out is just common sense - something that seems to be in d^mn short supply everywhere these days!:eek:

Phreak
10-10-2007, 17:34
There is absolutely no excuse for not carrying map and compass and knowing how to use them.

I completely agree if you are in an area that requires it. The AT isn't one of them.

But that's just my $0.02 worth.

The Old Fhart
10-10-2007, 17:45
Phreak-"The AT isn't one of them."One of the common complaints from those mapless hikers going through the Whites is they get confused or lost because they don't know where they're going. I'll repeat it, There is absolutely no excuse for not carrying map and compass and knowing how to use them-period. The people who think they're so superior that they don't need maps are the ones who the S&R people have to haul out of the woods.

SGT Rock
10-10-2007, 17:46
If they have cell phones to call with. ;)

Skidsteer
10-10-2007, 17:46
I completely agree if you are in an area that requires it. The AT isn't one of them.

But that's just my $0.02 worth.

You really can't conceive a circumstance in which a map would be necessary on the A.T.?

Serious question.

Kirby
10-10-2007, 18:01
Sure, the AT is, overall, well marked, but I have seen plenty of places, at least on the AT portions in Maine I have hiked, where it is useful to have a map so you can keep an eye out for landmarks, see if this is how steep the trail should be, etc. Even if you are 100% confident with your ability to hike on the section of trial you are on, maps allow you to plan for unforseen events that require a quick exit. I always have a map, I may not always use it, but it is there if I need it for one reason or another, especially when I go into the whites where trails have diferent names and many trails intersect each other.

Kirby
30-5-2

Lilred
10-10-2007, 18:05
Twice I have gotten off the trail at places I hadn't planned beforehand. Without a map, I never would have been able to do it. Not taking a map is foolish on several levels. Sure, anyone can follow the white blazes and be ok. It's the unexpected things that occur where a map comes in very handy. I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but at least I know that maps are as important to have as a first aid kit. Hopefully you won't need it, but if you do, it's mighty handy to have.

Jack Tarlin
10-10-2007, 18:10
Phreak:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I couldn't help but notice the big "2008" on your profile.

In other words, you haven't hiked the Trail yet, but you seem to know all about what's needed out there and what isn't.

Fact is, people get lost on or near the A.T. all the time, for all sots of reasons:

*They lose the Trail thru absent-mindedness and get lost finding their way
back

*They're not absent-minded at all, but fact is, some parts of the Trail are
NOT that well signd or blazed

*They get lost while blue-blazing, or taking side trips, or bushwhacking

*They get lost when they've gone too far off the Trail to camp

*They get lost while following streams and brooks

*They lose the Trail while hiking in twilight, or while night-hiking

*They lose the Trail when they are forced (by fire, flooding, etc.) to make
their own alternate progress

*They lose the Trail while attempting to help others, i.e. when they're
off looking for lost hikers or lost dogs, or perhaps trying to assist injured
hikers.

In short, people get lost all the time out there, and this includes thru-hikers. I doubt there is one thru-hiker (out of 10,000 total) who has not managed to find temselves off the Trail somehow and had to find their own way back, and while most accomplished this feast easily, this is NOT always the case.

While there are admittedly places on the Trail where it's very difficult to get lost, or very easy to get yourself un-lost, there are vast parts of the Trail where not knowing where you are or knowing exactly where you are going could be a real problem, even a life-threatening one. I see you're writing from Atlanta. I assure you that getting lost in Maine in early October, for example, is no joke.

Unless one knows a piece of land intimately, there's never an excuse for not carrying a current map and knowing how to use it.

Oh, funny thing, Phreak. I run into people on the A.T. all the time who aren't
carrying maps because they don't think......or they've been told.....that maps aren't necessary on the Appalachian Trail.

Ya know what these folks have in common?

At least once a day, they're asking to have a look at someone else's map. :-?

Lastly, Phreak, have a look at the article that started this thread. Some of these folks were on established trails marked just as well, if not better, than parts of the A.T. Yet they still managed to get good and lost. It can happen anywhere, including on the A.T., which is why the prudent hiker always caries a map.

And that's MY two cents.

shelterbuilder
10-10-2007, 18:13
A map and compass are kind of like car insurance - you have it, and you hope you never need it, but when you do need it, you're really glad that you have it!!:-?

SGT Rock
10-10-2007, 18:13
And that's MY two cents.

Looks more like a nickles worth.

Mags
10-10-2007, 18:16
At least once a day, they're asking to have a look at someone else's map. :-?




That's what I noticed as well. It was true in 1998, it is true in 2007.

Take the maps..it is small investment really.

Mags
10-10-2007, 18:17
Looks more like a nickles worth.

Well, the American dollar HAS lost its value in recent months.

.02 in 2005 is worth about .05 in 2007 dollars.

Or maybe Jack just likes to write a lot? :)

45 minutes to go...and I'm out of here (already out of my most of my hair, too)

SGT Rock
10-10-2007, 18:17
If you take as a given that a thru-hike is about 6 months - 183 days, then a set of maps cost you about $1 a day if you are an ATC member, or even less if you find a used set.

Overpass
10-10-2007, 18:18
You really can't conceive a circumstance in which a map would be necessary on the A.T.?

Serious question.

I was hiking in thick fog along a ridgeline on the AT in southern VA last spring. Visibility was about 20 feet.

I was in the groove, in the zone, miles just ticking past. Walked 20 feet off the Trail to answer nature's call. Walked back. Looked left. Looked right. Simply could NOT remember which side of the trail I'd exited. Odd, vertigo feeling.

I had a 50/50 chance of going the right way. I chose left, and as it turns out, it was the correct direction. But if it HAD been an emergency, or urgent for whatever reason that I NOT go the wrong way, I would have been screwed if I'd been out there without both map and compass.

SGT Rock
10-10-2007, 18:18
Where are you headed Mags?

Jack Tarlin
10-10-2007, 18:25
What Overpass described above (Post #22) has probably happened to anyone who has spent any real ammount of time on the A.T.

Getting lost on the Trail is a lot easier than you think......and nobody PLANS to do it.

Mags
10-10-2007, 18:38
Where are you headed Mags?

No where special. It is 4:30 PM MST, which means my work day is almost over.

I plan on doing an after work hike and then out for a pint or two with some friends.

Tin Man
10-10-2007, 18:47
Maps are a tool that when you used properly and with sufficient knowledge and expertise, not only help you stay on the correct trail, they also are effective for planning your day (distance to intended destinations and elevations to plan your time), reviewing options when you need or want to get off the trail, find points of interest such as water sources and viewing/break areas, and generally help keep you stay oriented with your surroundings.

Maps are an important tool for any mode of travel. Pilots and boat captains must navigate by their maps/charts. Car/truck drivers often find the shortest distance, alternate routes (for construction or accident avoidance), fueling stations/motels/restaurants/scenic routes by reading a map. Hikers also benefit greatly from carrying and using maps. Wherever you go and whatever your mode of transportation, discover the benefits and fun of carrying and knowing how to use a map. :cool:

woodsy
10-10-2007, 18:55
From the article, 11 people in all were rescued over the weekend, one of them was injured with broken ankle(ouch) and seemed to have a legitimate excuse but the others.........probably wouldn't know how to use a map and compass with or without a flashlight:rolleyes:
New Hampshire, the granite state(no pun intended) "Live Free or Die"

shelterbuilder
10-10-2007, 19:35
From the article, 11 people in all were rescued over the weekend, one of them was injured with broken ankle(ouch) and seemed to have a legitimate excuse but the others.........probably wouldn't know how to use a map and compass with or without a flashlight:rolleyes:
New Hampshire, the granite state(no pun intended) "Live Free or Die"

Do the rescuees get a bill from SAR?

woodsy
10-10-2007, 21:35
Do the rescuees get a bill from SAR?

Good question.
It wasn't mentioned in the article whether or not most of them would be or should be charged.
The NH S&R folks are pretty gracious with their time and resources.

Here are the reckless hiker rules (http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2001_and_previous/news_search_and_rescue_99.htm) for who could be charged for rescue in NH

warraghiyagey
10-10-2007, 21:37
. . . the granite state(no pun intended) "Live Free or Die"

I get it, that is funny.:) :)

shelterbuilder
10-10-2007, 21:40
Good question.
It wasn't mentioned in the article whether or not most of them would be or should be charged.
The NH S&R folks are pretty gracious with their time and resources.

Here are the reckless hiker rules (http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2001_and_previous/news_search_and_rescue_99.htm) for who could be charged for rescue in NH

The cost of the "Basic Ten" would a LOT less than the maximum fine!

woodsy
10-10-2007, 22:18
The cost of the "Basic Ten" would a LOT less than the maximum fine!
It just makes sense to me to be prepared for whatever may come your way. But then, i don't carry a cell phone either:rolleyes:

woodsy
10-11-2007, 08:17
Many people here are experienced hikers who know how to go out prepared for the worst.
NH Fish&Game and White Mountains National Forests has a very informative link (http://www.hikesafe.com/index.php/planning_your_hike/seasons) for those who may not be sure about what to take with you and what to expect for different seasons in the White Mountains specifically.
Note: map and compass are the first 2 items on the 10 essentials list and cell phone is not included in the 10.
Last time I checked a couple years ago, statewide S&R costs were about $250,000 annually
"Hike safe, it's your responsibility"

The Old Fhart
10-11-2007, 08:38
Here (http://www.hikesafe.com/uploads/File/sar.pdf) is a little more information on search and rescue costs. This article says the average rescue cost is $3000 with a total of about $130,000 annually, although there isn't a date on the article to know if these figures are up to date.

Typically N.H. Fish And Game is responsible for overseeing all backcountry rescues although they may not be physically there. The article list some of the volunteer groups that give a lot of their time to SAR. The main financial support comes from fish and game licenses and although hunters and fisherman may be the largest group getting lost in NH, hikers get the most press.

There has been talk in recent years, especially from other outdoors people, that there should be some way for the hikers to pay some share of the SAR costs. One plan was a small tax on outdoor gear sold in NH. Someone will be charged for their rescue only if there has been alcohol/drugs involved, if they knowingly disregarded common sense rules and information that would have caused a reasoning person not to get in that situation, or if they were totally unprepared jerks.

woodsy
10-11-2007, 09:17
2004 statewide S&R costs from a related article:

Capt. Marty Garabedian of the fish and game department said there were 115 search and rescues in New Hampshire last year, and the ages of the individuals "were spread out across the board." He didn’t have a breakdown of incidents to know how many involved Mt. Washington. The state spent $263,979 on all search and rescue operations for fiscal 2004.

shelterbuilder
10-11-2007, 09:22
2004 statewide S&R costs from a related article:

WOW! That's almost $2,300 per rescue - that would pay for an awful lot of new trails - or a lot of maintenence on the old ones!

The Solemates
10-11-2007, 09:51
Phreak:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I couldn't help but notice the big "2008" on your profile.

In other words, you haven't hiked the Trail yet, but you seem to know all about what's needed out there and what isn't.

Fact is, people get lost on or near the A.T. all the time, for all sots of reasons:

*They lose the Trail thru absent-mindedness and get lost finding their way
back

*They're not absent-minded at all, but fact is, some parts of the Trail are
NOT that well signd or blazed

*They get lost while blue-blazing, or taking side trips, or bushwhacking

*They get lost when they've gone too far off the Trail to camp

*They get lost while following streams and brooks

*They lose the Trail while hiking in twilight, or while night-hiking

*They lose the Trail when they are forced (by fire, flooding, etc.) to make
their own alternate progress

*They lose the Trail while attempting to help others, i.e. when they're
off looking for lost hikers or lost dogs, or perhaps trying to assist injured
hikers.

In short, people get lost all the time out there, and this includes thru-hikers. I doubt there is one thru-hiker (out of 10,000 total) who has not managed to find temselves off the Trail somehow and had to find their own way back, and while most accomplished this feast easily, this is NOT always the case.

While there are admittedly places on the Trail where it's very difficult to get lost, or very easy to get yourself un-lost, there are vast parts of the Trail where not knowing where you are or knowing exactly where you are going could be a real problem, even a life-threatening one. I see you're writing from Atlanta. I assure you that getting lost in Maine in early October, for example, is no joke.

Unless one knows a piece of land intimately, there's never an excuse for not carrying a current map and knowing how to use it.

Oh, funny thing, Phreak. I run into people on the A.T. all the time who aren't
carrying maps because they don't think......or they've been told.....that maps aren't necessary on the Appalachian Trail.

Ya know what these folks have in common?

At least once a day, they're asking to have a look at someone else's map. :-?

Lastly, Phreak, have a look at the article that started this thread. Some of these folks were on established trails marked just as well, if not better, than parts of the A.T. Yet they still managed to get good and lost. It can happen anywhere, including on the A.T., which is why the prudent hiker always caries a map.

And that's MY two cents.

Great post, great advice. I do disagree with "some parts of the Trail are
NOT that well signd or blazed", but that is just my perspective.

leeki pole
10-11-2007, 10:32
Great post, great advice. I do disagree with "some parts of the Trail are
NOT that well signd or blazed", but that is just my perspective.
I'd like to know how many hikers have gone the wrong way in cloudy/rainy conditions. I know I have. I'm not ashamed to admit it. And yes, I always carry a map and compass. To not carry them is foolhardy.

Freeleo
10-11-2007, 10:39
or how many people have hiked the trail without a map

i will always point something, problably my hiking pole, in the direction i need to head

phreak, you msut be crazy not to hike with a map on the AT:rolleyes:

but eash to thine own, you gotta be kidding, but who knows

EricSJNH
10-11-2007, 11:34
Thanks for posting this article, I was on a trip with the University of New Hampshire's Outing Club up at our cabin in Franconia Notch. The mother-daughter duo mentioned in the first incidenent stumbled (accidentally) into our cabin around 8 and they were quite frazzled to say the least (and fairly unprepared). Luckily one of the outing club guys had his truck up at the cabin via the access road and was able to drive them down to their car. It was raining and they lacked headlights, food, warm clothes, and only had plastic water bottles. At the time the father and son were still missing and the forest service and AMC had been contacted..glad to know they were found safely.

Cannibal
10-11-2007, 11:53
WOW! That's almost $2,300 per rescue

I was 'rescued' back in 1991 in Texas; flown by helicopter (life flight) to San Antonio as a code blue. It took me less time to payoff my student loans that it took me to payoff that little experience. The helicopter ALONE cost me $15,000 because insurance had a maximum ambulatory transportation amount (I think it was about $1,200).

I did nothing wrong other than take a loooooong fall and crack some vertebrae and destroy my wrist. The code blue was a result of a combination of the injuries + hypothermia + shock. It is my belief, based on this experience, that every rescue is charged to the person in need. Even if there was no assignable fault. There was no 'search', only rescue, so I cringe at what it would cost in today's dollars.

Johnny Thunder
10-11-2007, 11:53
I've asked before, but...

I have the PA maps and have found them to be too detailed. Probably don't need that much map for what eventually becomes about 2.5 days hiking per page. Are there other alternatives? Are the PA maps more detailed than other states?

Mags
10-11-2007, 12:00
The helicopter ALONE cost me $15,000 because insurance had a maximum ambulatory transportation amount (I think it was about $1,200).





Yoowch! That is too bad. :(

At least in Colorado, there is an informal rule that if the accident is not through negligence, the costs are generally not charged. (Again, it is informal!)

A friend of mine had a freak case of altitude sickness a few years ago on a hut trip. ALtitude sickness can even happen to experienced people generally used to altitude. Anyway, it was so bad he had to be helicoptered out.

The local National Guard unit apparently needs X amount of hours of training, so my friend's SAR applied as training hours.

He was lucky it seems!

Again..ouch. Sorry to hear about your bills.

Cannibal
10-11-2007, 12:03
Funny; I had just moved to Colorado when this happened. I was visiting the other side of the family in Texas. The good news is I didn't have to move any of my stuff; family felt bad and did it for me. :)

Freeleo
10-11-2007, 12:19
isnt there some sort of insurance or something you can get in certain states that would cover rescues....i think i recall another thread about that months ago

partinj
10-11-2007, 12:43
I will be doing ny thur-hike on Feb 4 2008 and will take a map and compass. An i do no how to use them i think they will more fun to the hike if i watn to get off the on side trails. now about cell phones i think anyone that go in to the woods with out knowing how to read a map and compass and need to be rescue should have to pay for the cost of the rescue.A good case for map and compass is up in the white mountains if a storm roll in you need to figure out how to get down fast. But i think if they had to pay for the rescue you would see a lot more folks learn to use a may and compass just my .10 worth :-?

The Solemates
10-11-2007, 15:01
or how many people have hiked the trail without a map



I know at least two.

Phreak
10-11-2007, 15:10
isnt there some sort of insurance or something you can get in certain states that would cover rescues....i think i recall another thread about that months ago

Yeah, in Colorado it's only a few dollars.

shelterbuilder
10-11-2007, 15:36
I've asked before, but...

I have the PA maps and have found them to be too detailed. Probably don't need that much map for what eventually becomes about 2.5 days hiking per page. Are there other alternatives? Are the PA maps more detailed than other states?

The maps for Pa. used to be horrible, IMHO. The scale was such that I almost needed a magnifying glass to read them!:D

What's the copyright date (or the printing date) on yours, because a few years back, they started adding all kinds of detail.

leeki pole
10-11-2007, 16:29
Altitude sickness is no picnic, that's for sure. I'm a marathoner, but at 300 feet ASL. Six thousand feet plus is a whole different story. I've had two bouts with it and man, I thought I was going to die. Fit or not, you will suffer. I wonder if some folks are just more succeptible that others to it?

Mags
10-11-2007, 16:31
Yeah, in Colorado it's only a few dollars.

There is no insurance card for Colorado. It is a very widely held misconception.

From http://www.dola.state.co.us/dlg/fa/sar/sar_purchase.html

The CORSAR Card Is Not Insurance
The card is not insurance and does not reimburse individuals nor does it pay for medical transport. Medical transport includes helicopter flights or ground ambulance. If aircraft are used as a search vehicle, those costs are reimbursed by the fund. If the aircraft becomes a medical transport due to a medical emergency, the medical portion of the transport is not covered.


So why buy a card? It is basically a card saying that you've given a donation to CO SAR groups. The CO counties that typically have the most SAR incidents also happen to have a lmited tax base. The CORSAR card fees go into a general fund that in turn helps fund training and rescues


Again, from the same website:

Why Buy a CORSAR Card?
Colorado residents and visitors are well served by dedicated volunteer search and rescue teams, but mission costs are often in the thousands of dollars. By purchasing a CORSAR card you are contributing to the Search and Rescue Fund, which will reimburse these teams for costs incurred in your search and rescue. Funds remaining at the end of the year are used to help pay for training and equipment for these teams. Anyone with a current hunting/fishing license, or boat, snowmobile, ATV registration is already covered by the fund.

sonic
10-11-2007, 16:34
You think this is bad, take a look at this. In urban Dallas/Fort Worth metro-plex 2 dads and the kids get lost! No mountains, no bad weather, just dumb people I guess!

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/264730.html

Freeleo
10-11-2007, 16:36
wouldnt your personal insurance cover it under some circumstance????

Cannibal
10-11-2007, 16:41
wouldnt your personal insurance cover it under some circumstance????

Personal insurance comes with lots and lots of restrictions and maximums.:mad:

Mags
10-11-2007, 16:42
wouldnt your personal insurance cover it under some circumstance????


I have no idea.

Many insurance companies have a clause against paying for injuries and associated fees caused by "extreme activities" (I know mine does!). A very vague term to say the least. I suspect if I had to be carted out due to slipping and falling on the Mesa Trail, (http://www.totalboulder.com/resources/61.html) my insurance might cover the ambulance. If I was to break my leg somewhere on a remote ski trail and had to be helicoptered out? I honestly don't know.

If in doubt, ask your insurance company. Hell, I should ask my insurance company, too. :)

Johnny Thunder
10-11-2007, 16:46
The maps for Pa. used to be horrible, IMHO. The scale was such that I almost needed a magnifying glass to read them!:D

What's the copyright date (or the printing date) on yours, because a few years back, they started adding all kinds of detail.


I bought mine in (or around 2000).

My major complaint was that the section from Duncannon to a shade past Rausch Gap was all that one whole map covered. That's less than 2 days at a health, 1250-miles-under-the-boots pace. I'd be comfortable with 60 or even 80 miles per page because I guess I'm happy using the map and guidebook in tandem. Meaning, I don't really need a whole lot of detail on the maps because they're really just there to provide a visual reference to the guidbooks.

All's I really need is to know where the shelters, water sources, and notable side trails/views are. That, and which way to go at road crossings. For me, the PA maps were just OVER KILL.

Uncle Sil pointed out that he thought the PA maps were the most detailed so maybe some of the southern/northern maps are more my speed.

shelterbuilder
10-11-2007, 17:29
I bought mine in (or around 2000).

My major complaint was that the section from Duncannon to a shade past Rausch Gap was all that one whole map covered. That's less than 2 days at a health, 1250-miles-under-the-boots pace. I'd be comfortable with 60 or even 80 miles per page because I guess I'm happy using the map and guidebook in tandem. Meaning, I don't really need a whole lot of detail on the maps because they're really just there to provide a visual reference to the guidbooks.

All's I really need is to know where the shelters, water sources, and notable side trails/views are. That, and which way to go at road crossings. For me, the PA maps were just OVER KILL.

Uncle Sil pointed out that he thought the PA maps were the most detailed so maybe some of the southern/northern maps are more my speed.

I have a copy of the maps and guidebook from 1973 in my packroom, and it's fun to leaf through it every so often just to see how much things have changed. There were seven maps covering 222.8 miles - 3 for the area south of the Susquehanna River, and 4 that covered from the Susquehanna to DWG. The northern 4 maps were in B&W, they showed the basics (footpath, shelters, springs, elevation, road crossings) and not much else. They were difficult to read because of the lack of color contrast.

Over the years, I think that the complaints that I had with the maps were common enough that, as new maps were created, more details, more color, and more information was added. You have to remember that the maps don't just get used by thru-hikers - lots of local hikers pick them up to try to set up shorter hikes, circle hikes, shuttles, etc. And, yes, SAR can use them, too, if necessary, since there's more hiker-specific info on them than there is on the USGS topo maps.

Too much info? Just ignore the stuff that you don't need!:D

rlharris
10-11-2007, 21:27
No flashlights -- especially when starting a hike in the late afternoon with rain for the evening in the forecast? That is almost as bad as no map.

Brad and I do a fair number of day hikes in the Whites. Being morning types, we get an early start so we always have a safety margin before dusk for the return portion of the hike. I am alway amazed at the number of people we meet going up as we are coming down. And the round trip might be 4 to 6 hours.

rafe
10-11-2007, 22:03
I have a copy of the maps and guidebook from 1973 in my packroom, and it's fun to leaf through it every so often just to see how much things have changed.

I can tell for certain that, for the period 1990 to 2007, the Pennsylvania ATC maps win the "most improved" prize. The 1990 PA maps were the worst of the lot, but the new ones are top-notch.

SGT Rock
10-12-2007, 07:46
I've asked before, but...

I have the PA maps and have found them to be too detailed. Probably don't need that much map for what eventually becomes about 2.5 days hiking per page. Are there other alternatives? Are the PA maps more detailed than other states?
The only thing that really buggs me about the PA maps is they only print on one side - a huge waste of space. Imagine if they put all the maps two sided...:-?

nitewalker
10-12-2007, 08:11
do you really think a compass would have helped any of them? they probably had no clue how to use a compass thats why they didnt have one. would it really help if you had no clue of your where abouts and which direction you started from? they all seemed to be rookies with no clue. the trail could be heading south but yet you may need to travel north, confusing...a map, flashlight and rain gear are a real must in my opinion especially if your not familiar with the area..there will be other things you may need to get thru the ordeal like a match and some food but the proper gear will always help..

the couple which took their kids out may want to rethink the way they approach their next excursion and make sure they have what it takes to complete the journey safely, map, compass, flashlight, rain gear and a brain that is sharp. your brain is your lifeline... peace out, nitewalker

Lilred
10-12-2007, 12:08
I'd like to know how many hikers have gone the wrong way in cloudy/rainy conditions. I know I have. I'm not ashamed to admit it. And yes, I always carry a map and compass. To not carry them is foolhardy.


I nearly got lost once just walking offtrail in a fog to go to the bathroom. Unnerved me to no end.

LIhikers
10-12-2007, 13:03
..... Being prepared to stay out overnight whenever you go out is just common sense - something that seems to be in d^mn short supply everywhere these days!:eek:

Common sense isn't really very common these days.

Johnny Thunder
10-12-2007, 13:25
The only thing that really buggs me about the PA maps is they only print on one side - a huge waste of space. Imagine if they put all the maps two sided...:-?


That's exactly what I'm talking about. Not only is it a waste of paper...and weight...it's also just another thing to lose.

Of course I know that the maps are multi use. I'll ask it again...are there other map resources or are these the only ones?

On a weekend trip it is nice to be able to count every switchback walking out of Duncannon. But do you really need that level of detail over the long haul? Is that the level of detail that'd save you in an emergency?

I know I'm nitpicking...just wanted to see if there are other options.

BigwaveDave
10-13-2007, 14:50
3 months ago I was doing a shake down hike on the Pinhoti Trail and ran into 2couples,4 kids and a dog who had spent 3hours coming up the Cave creek trail, they were beat and lost. At the camp ground they were told that the cave creek to pinhoti loop would be an easy hike of 2 hours, mind you it had taken me 5 hours of hard hiking to reach the spot where we met. Between them they had about 3 small bottles of water and no map. The kids were whinning and the wives were pissed. I showed them where we were on the map and explained that their best course of action was to turn around and retrace back to the parking lot. They must have made because the next day I went down the same trail and found no bodies, as I ran out of water and would have been unable to make it to where I wanted to go. It took me 2 hours to cover the trail and it was down hill most of the way. There was no water on the mountain all the springs were dry. Sorry to ramble but the point is they made several criticle mistakes that could have had tragic results, no map, no water, no gear whatsoever, no compass, no clue. With people like that the SAR people will stay in business. As for me that trail kicked my butt and I had more than enough gear. You gotta be careful, momma nature will put it to you.

Route Step
10-13-2007, 21:54
Although I do carry maps, compass, whistle, etc., I started packing state road maps that show the AT as a dashed line. I cut down the map to just the AT. I plot my position on it in a rough way, sort of dead reckoning, at the end of the day.
It has little trail data, I get that from my data book. It shows major roads and towns close to the trail and gives me the visual big picture mentioned earlier.