View Full Version : Recommend a GPS unit
Thinking about investing in a GPS unit. There are a number on the market, all trying to get my attention. Which one is recommended? What do you say? Thanks for your recommendations. Cost and effectiveness as well as user friendliness is important.
I've heard good things about the Delorme Earthmate which comes packaged with the topo map software and the Garmin Legend Cx where you buy the mapping software separately. For either you can expect to pay about $3-350 total. Garmin also sells a basic non mapping GPS for about $100
I should add, if I'm not mistaken the Delmore has a proprietary battery while the Garmin uses 2 AA's and is smaller and lighter. Two lithium AA's in the later last quite awhile.
Midway Sam
10-12-2007, 20:34
It's a VERY pricy unit, but I like the technology behind the new Bushnell Onix 400. It uses GPS and xm Sattelite radio combined for a fabulous handheld weather monitor with live radar overlay.
http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2006/12/01/bushnell-onix-400cr/
http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2007/02/23/more-on-bushnell-onix-400/
That being said, I am a big fan of GPS receivers but have yet to find much use for one on the trail. They serve a great purpose for car and marine navigation, hunting, fishing, farming, etc. but unless you're planning on bushwhacking, it's basically dead weight.
They serve a great purpose for car and marine navigation, hunting, fishing, farming, etc. but unless you're planning on bushwhacking, it's basically dead weight.
Yeah, on the CDT they'll save you some time, getting from A to B (bushwhack) and give you a little peace of mind when you're not quite sure where the trail is after consulting the maps and guidebooks.
take-a-knee
10-12-2007, 21:00
Garmin Etrex for AA's, a Garmin Geko or the wrist job (I forget the name) that replaced the Geko. You DO NOT need a mapping GPS. You need a paper map, a compass, and the knowledge to use them. A GPS is merely a dead-nuts (as long as it has batteries) substitute for resection/intersection, and if you don't know what I'm talking about you don't have the requisite knowledge to benefit from a GPS. Find Army Field Manual (FM) 21-26 and study it.
buckowens
10-12-2007, 21:04
I have been a Garmin fan since using them for years in various aircraft and on the ground as well. I use a Garmin Etrex Legend Cx and have liked it very well. I used it on about 150 miles of the trail with good success in the tree cover. I also used mine to pick out a pickup point for my wife to navigate to, as well as to have some idea of how close a shelter is (as the crow flies of course). I bought mine at http://www.thegpsstore.com/, and found that they had a good deal. You may also check Wally World as well.
Garmin Etrex for AA's, a Garmin Geko or the wrist job (I forget the name) that replaced the Geko. You DO NOT need a mapping GPS. You need a paper map, a compass, and the knowledge to use them. A GPS is merely a dead-nuts (as long as it has batteries) substitute for resection/intersection, and if you don't know what I'm talking about you don't have the requisite knowledge to benefit from a GPS. Find Army Field Manual (FM) 21-26 and study it.
Well, arguments can be made that you don't need a GPS at all, but that wasn't the question. Since JD lives in Colorado he may have more use for one.
I'm not sure that any GPS is really particularly valuable for hiking the AT. The trail is pretty well marked and with the trail maps and the various guide books I can't think how a GPS would be useful.
However, my problem was different. My local land trust had acquired 800 acres of land and easements, all open to the public, and others, inspired I like to think in some cases by the land trust, have protected another 3,000 acres.
All these lands have trails. One land trust 250 acre preserve alone has 12 miles of trails. My chore became to provide trail maps and a guide that encourages people to use these lands that so many had worked so hard to provide them with.
I had toyed with Garmins for years. None seemed to do what I wanted -- which probably is a reflection on me, not the product.
But regardless, Delorme a year ago was promoting a new system featuring an Earthmate GPS pn-20, and related maps and software. The price was around $350. I don't remember. But I bought one. It did precisely what I wanted. It mapped trails on standard topo maps while imposing only marginal hassles on me.
A project that I had tried to avoid for months, creation of a guide to hiking trails in Phippsburg, now stikes me as do-able. The GPS seeks a dozen satellites, provides a detailed route, and with the software records it on a map, useful enough to encourage more use of our preserves.
Weary
How do you intend to use the GPS and what would you like it to do for you?
I own the eTrex Legend. It is a nice unit and has helped give me peace of mind as to where the next campsite/shelter is on the AT, especially when you run out of daylight. However, after a couple of section hikes, I found it more trouble (and weight) than it was worth. Now it helps me find remote trail heads and stays in the car, but I probably would have purchased a different unit if I had known that was how I would use it. I share my experience, as others have, to point out that a GPS can be useful, but in different ways than you originally intended. By sharing where and how you think you would use a GPS, others can share their experiences and suggest a model that fits your particular needs.
Thinking about investing in a GPS unit. There are a number on the market, all trying to get my attention. Which one is recommended? What do you say? Thanks for your recommendations. Cost and effectiveness as well as user friendliness is important.Cost and effectiveness don't go hand in hand very often. Increased cost often brings along increased effectiveness.
Mapping GPSs are the most expensive (IMO Garmin 460 series is the best mapping GPS), but are the most effective.
I've had four different GPSs and am most pleased with the last one (Garmin gpsmap 460CS). The advantage of a GPS with built-in or downloaded maps is tremendous if you want to do some exploring either bushwhacking or on unmarked or poorly marked trails.
A GPS without maps works, also, but it helps to carry a paper map that has coordinate gridlines on it, and/or to put in some key coordinates ahead of time for your particular hike. This is easy to do as long as your GPS can conect to a PC (most do).
A GPS with mapping software (or GPS with a paper map) can do some things that a map/compass cannot do. There is a tiny segment of the population who can actually triangulate positions and are inordinately proud of the fact, or can tell direction by tree moss, etc, but in a downpour, fog, white out, or in the middle of featureless woods, give me a GPS any day. Always carry spare batteries. A GPS without power is no help at all. If you are in an isolated area (out west, say), a backup map isn't a bad idea. It weighs little and will most likely never leave your pack.
Frosty mentioned battery life. My older garmin etrex eats 2 doubles in about 8 hours of usage. Do newer/different models support longer battery life?
take-a-knee
10-12-2007, 22:05
Frosty's point about mapping software is a good one. I had (it died) the Delorme software and used it to make UTM grids of the areas I hunt. I set my Etrex to UTM and it is just like using a military grid (MGRS) system. You can do the same thing with Lat/long and USGS maps and a piece of paper and a pencil, but it is a major pain and easy to make a mistake.
I still say that small hand-held GPS unit with mapping screens have a limited untility, and, until recently, were way overpriced. The non-mappers work in the fog/night just as well as the mapping units and use less power.
In my earlier post I forgot to say that the Garmin Geko uses AAA's.
Frosty mentioned battery life. My older garmin etrex eats 2 doubles in about 8 hours of usage. Do newer/different models support longer battery life?My 460CS with a big screen gets a lot more battery life (more that 8 hours) than does my etrex Summit (smaller screen, no map) (less than 8 hours).
I have not done a rigorous test, though. And it is a little subjective as I don't leave my unit on all the time unless I'm trying to follow a specific trail, and having a hard time of it. For instance, the Warner Trail and Bay Circuit Trail in Mass is poorly marked in places and have a maze of ATV trails crisscrossing them.
Also, I don;'t have any way of knowing if this is because they got better at power usage or if I just happen to have a power hog Etrex Summit and a more efficient-than-most 460CS.
But carrying extra batteries is a good idea no matter how long a battery-life you have.
I am partial to Garmin, but if you are going to be in the woods, make sure you get one with and "x" in the model name. The new "x" models have a higher sensitivity and will not lose the satellite signal even in heavy tree cover.
The Old Fhart
10-12-2007, 22:30
take-a-knee-"You DO NOT need a mapping GPS. You need a paper map, a compass, and the knowledge to use them. A GPS is merely a dead-nuts (as long as it has batteries) substitute for resection/intersection, and if you don't know what I'm talking about you don't have the requisite knowledge to benefit from a GPS. Find Army Field Manual (FM) 21-26 and study it."While I'll agree that everyone should carry a map and compass and know how to use them, what follows in the above quote doesn’t make sense.
'Resection' is more commonly known as triangulation in the non-military world and is a method to locate approximately where you are by plotting back bearings from preferably 3 identifiable landmarks and where these 3 lines intersect is your approximate location. It can be mathematically shown that maximum accuracy will be obtained with 3 landmarks 120° apart and the accuracy goes down dramatically when the landmarks are close together.
The obvious limitations of this method are that you have to be able to see the 3 landmarks so being in woods, fog, or dark renders this method useless. The reason you need to know how to do triangulation when using map and compass is that a compass only tells you the direction of the magnetic lines of force that wind their way to the magnetic pole and a compass will not give you location. If you don’t know how to do triangulate/resection then actually a GPS will be much more useful when you need to know your location and a map and compass might not help at all. Using a GPS you always know your location, so triangulation is not necessary with a GPS.
I have used a GPS to find over 2700 geocaches so I know how to use one effectively but I still will probably stick to just map and compass for long distance hikes.
take-a-knee
10-12-2007, 22:56
Yes Phart, triangulation and resection are the same thing, that was my whole point, the GPS allows you to achieve that same thing, night or day, good viz or bad viz, and that is about all it will do, and that won't always be enough to keep you "found". It won't teach you what the five terrain features are, it won't teach you how to terrain associate, it will keep your pace count for you though...right up to the point where the batteries run down. All GPS units are battery hungry, if you leave them on all the time, which you must do if you try to navigate solely with the GPS, you'll be constantly changing batteries, if you have some. It is a backup for navigation skills, not a substitute. There is no substitute for being able to visualize a 3D image in your mind of what that map represents, and a GPS won't get that done.
All GPS units are battery hungry, if you leave them on all the time, which you must do if you try to navigate solely with the GPS, you'll be constantly changing batteries, if you have some. It is a backup for navigation skills, not a substitute. There is no substitute for being able to visualize a 3D image in your mind of what that map represents, and a GPS won't get that done.
I don't think anyone ever mentioned using one solely to navigate. I used one for over 100 miles this year to help me stay "found" or find myself on the map and do some bushwhacking rather than retracing my steps. I also only used three sets of AA lithiums all summer.
All GPS units are battery hungry, if you leave them on all the time, which you must do if you try to navigate solely with the GPS, you'll be constantly changing batteries, if you have some. Ah, yes, the old "you can't use a GPS because it might lose power" argument.
Do you own a car? A flashlight?
To say you will be constantly changing batteries is nonsense. I always take spare batteries for an emergency, but have NEVER changed them in the field, including a 6 day backpack on the Pinhoti Trail. If I left my GPS on all the time, I'd be changing batteries (and I buy cheap ones at BJ's) no more frequently than every 10-12 hours, hardly constantly. But I don't leave it on all the time because, well, you do not need to have a GPS on all the time to navigate. Do you need to triangulate your position with a map and compass every step you take?
But this is a thread started by someone who is asking about GPSs, as he has a right to do. Let people answer his question.
If you don't like GPSs, fine. Start a thread about how GPSs are the work of the devil and how you will die a horrible death in the woods if you buy one. Follow it up with a thread on why wool is better than synthetics, and why canvas tents are superior to nylon, but don't hijack the thread. Let this guy get answers to his question, please.
Thanks.
Anyone, besides me, think its funny that we are making up questions rather than waiting to hear back from the person who started this thread?
take-a-knee
10-13-2007, 00:10
Mr Cool, for your perusal:
http://www.kifaru.net/GPSing.htm
Thanks gang, having seen so many different types, etc, I have been curious as to what the experiences have been. Has anyone found that the use of a GPS really prevented them from getting into or helped them out of a real scary situation?
The Dolorme with its extras looks real fascinating.
I should add, if I'm not mistaken the Delmore has a proprietary battery while the Garmin uses 2 AA's and is smaller and lighter. Two lithium AA's in the latter last quite awhile.
The proprietary battery is the only thing I don't like about the Delorme. It's rechargeable, which means it is okay for my trail mapping projects in town. But I dislike having to charge batteries while on the trail -- especially in Maine where sources of electric current tends to be few and far apart near the AT.
But the Maine trail is so well marked, I can't imagine anyone getting seriously lost -- even Katz. So it has never occurred to me to take it long distance hiking.
Weary
WalkingStick75
10-13-2007, 19:25
I agree GPS is not needed on the AT to go from GA-ME. One really nice function is when you take pictures if you sync your camera with the GPS you can use a program like Jet Photo and it will show you on a map where you took that picture.
I can't wait until GPS cameras are affordable (and light!).
I agree GPS is not needed on the AT to go from GA-ME.
It's kind of like the cell phone, only different. ;)
My cell phone has GPS that I use alot on my job..It offers Pedestrian, Bicycle, Motorcycle and Truck features.It is $9.99 a month through Verision Wirerless.
Napster
Shutterbug
10-13-2007, 22:01
I should add, if I'm not mistaken the Delmore has a proprietary battery while the Garmin uses 2 AA's and is smaller and lighter. Two lithium AA's in the later last quite awhile.
I have the Delorme Earthmate PN-20 unit. It does come with a proprietary rechargable battery, but it works just as well with two AA batteries.
I also have a Garmin eTrex.
I bought the Delorme because it allows me to upload detailed maps, including satellite images. My main complaint is that it takes a lot of time to upload the maps; therefore, I usually load only the area where I plan to hike. If I change my plans after leaving home (something I do fairly often), I wind up hiking in areas where I have no details. In that case, it is no better than the Garmin.
The Garmin is lighter, smaller and seems to find sattelites a bit faster than the Delorme.
I recently upgraded from a garmin gecko 101 (very basic unit which does not much more than give your coordinates) to a Garmin etrex Vista Hcx. I really missed having a compass and altimiter in the gecko.
I do question how really useful a GPS is for on trail hiking. On a trail is more of a toy. It is very usefull off trail, particularly if your in flat terain or at night when determining your loacation via resection or teraian association is difficult.
I went for a full featured unit so it can fufil a number of uses. it has a built in compass so the unit can walk me directly to a location, an altimiter which although not nessesary it certainly fun to have on trail.
The maping feature is nice when I hunt as I can store points of hunting interest and study deer patterns at home.
The new high sensitivity reciever works much better under the tree cover than do the older units.
My main complaint (about the Delorme) is that it takes a lot of time to upload the maps; therefore, I usually load only the area where I plan to hike. If I change my plans after leaving home (something I do fairly often), I wind up hiking in areas where I have no details. In that case, it is no better than the Garmin.
I think my buddy said he uploaded the entire country! I'm not sure how much memory that takes but on my Garmin Legend C, the CDT, took just over 24MB.
One thing I like about his software is that most of the forest service roads had numbers, and to a certain extent, the trails had names, while the Garmin only said road or trail. However, one time there was a fairly major county/forest service road that was part of the trail that wasn't on his, but on mine. He also said none of trails Yellowstone were on the software maps! :eek:
I paid a premium last year to get the GPSmap 60csx with the (then) new chipset, and it was money well spent. I don't hike in canyons or 1000ft sequoias, but I've never lost reception under any canopy yet. I usually have the best GPS on any work trip in the wilderness.
rlharris
10-14-2007, 07:44
Something to consider when choosing a GPS unit. Some have a built-in electronic compass (like the Garmin etrex Vista) and others depend upon the GPS signal for the compass bearing (like the DeLorme). If the unit uses the GPS signal for the compass bearing, one must be moving for the compass to work. If it has an electronic compass, one can be stationary.
Shutterbug
10-14-2007, 10:43
I think my buddy said he uploaded the entire country! I'm not sure how much memory that takes but on my Garmin Legend C, the CDT, took just over 24MB.
One thing I like about his software is that most of the forest service roads had numbers, and to a certain extent, the trails had names, while the Garmin only said road or trail. However, one time there was a fairly major county/forest service road that was part of the trail that wasn't on his, but on mine. He also said none of trails Yellowstone were on the software maps! :eek:
The problem with keeping a large area in the GPS is that it takes more time to draw the map. The way I use a GPS is to pull it out of my pocket from time to time to check the data. I like to quickly switch from the data page to the map page. If it takes more than a second or two to draw the map, it is too long. I have found that when I have a larger map loaded into memory it takes longer to draw the map. I prefer to load a very detailed map of the area where I intend to be.
If your friend loaded the entire US into his unit, he must be loading a fairly high level map. The software allows the user to determine how much detail. If one is using the map for driving on highways, the detail isn't needed. If one is usine the gps for off trail hiking, the detailed contour information is helpful. I even load the sattelite images for the areas where I hike most (Mt. Rainier National Park).
Shutterbug
10-14-2007, 10:48
Something to consider when choosing a GPS unit. Some have a built-in electronic compass (like the Garmin etrex Vista) and others depend upon the GPS signal for the compass bearing (like the DeLorme). If the unit uses the GPS signal for the compass bearing, one must be moving for the compass to work. If it has an electronic compass, one can be stationary.
That is true; however, I have not found that it makes a lot of difference in real use. I guess it could make a big difference if one where under a heavy canopy and couldn't get a gps lock.
It is also true that some units have a barometer built in and others rely on the gps signal. I have observed that both the Garmin etrex Vista and the Delorme have fluxuations in the elevations readings. Sometimes the elevation reading will stay the same for several minutes, then jump a 100 or more feet all at once. I don't know what causes that.
The problem with keeping a large area in the GPS is that it takes more time to draw the map.
Yeah, he may have been better off just uploading the CDT. He also used a Solio solar charger. It also recharged his Ipod and XM radio. With mini speakers we were able to listen to couple Red Sox games in northern NM... but I digress. :D
PS Lots of sun on the CDT. Each full charge took about 2 days, so he needed to ration the XM and Ipod.
I've been using a Garmin 60CSx since the week it was introduced and haven't seen anything that's better than it yet. This unit is my fifth GPSr and I have it loaded on a 2GB micro SD card with road routing for all the US and Canada, 100K topo for east of the Mississippi, and 24K topo for most of the major eastern areas.
faarside
10-14-2007, 15:11
When I need a GPS, I use my Garmin eTrex Legend. Good battery life on AA Lithium's. I got mine for a great price on eBay.
Hope this helps. Happy Trails!
Something to consider when choosing a GPS unit. Some have a built-in electronic compass (like the Garmin etrex Vista) and others depend upon the GPS signal for the compass bearing (like the DeLorme). If the unit uses the GPS signal for the compass bearing, one must be moving for the compass to work. If it has an electronic compass, one can be stationary.
The electronic compass does help you see what direction you're facing by putting a little arrow on the on-screen map. Doesn't replace a real compass, but convenient.
It is also true that some units have a barometer built in and others rely on the gps signal. I have observed that both the Garmin etrex Vista and the Delorme have fluxuations in the elevations readings.
GPS-based elevation isn't too great. Mine consistently reads 70-120 feet too high at the elevation where I explore. Barometric elevation is better, providing you remember to calibrate it every time you go out, though I haven't had the opportunity to really check its accuracy on my 60csx.
I have the Delorme Earthmate PN-20 unit. It does come with a proprietary rechargable battery, but it works just as well with two AA batteries.
I too got the DeLorme for the detail level on the maps (good for scouting new trails as I often do).
The supplied batteries wouldn't hold charge after 2 charges, the car cord doesn't work, and the originally supplied SD card didn't work (after bitching about the last one and finally getting a new card after seven serial arguments with "customer service" I decided my time was better spent getting the AA's to deal with the first two).
It seems to hold a signal better than my two horrendously old Garmin GPS12 and GPS12XL units though.
Being new to GPS I decided to get a cheaper simpler model. Garmen ForeTrex 101. I love it. I took it on my through and used it when hiking in the dark looking for the next shelter. It was a big help because so many shelters are on blue blazed trails and at night time when the trail is hard enough to follow as is the GPS was heaven sent. It was also good to keep track of your mileage if you needed to get to a spot 3.4 miles from a shelter or any specific designation and you weren't hiking your normal pace. For trail purposes this was all I needed. Maybe one day I'll splurge and get a fancy one with maps.
Wise Old Owl
10-31-2007, 23:49
Quite a few posts mentioned the older Legend, While walking the AT that perticular Garmin will loose points in deep foilage, although very useful the dropped points in reception was a little frustrating, I now have the later HCX color with better reception, and almost lost it when I saw the price of the accessories. Luckly the system worked with the older software and I found a chip inexpensivly at a local store. Good Luck
If you are looking for a GPS unit why dont you search based on how your'e going to use it and what features are important to you.
Check out this site, it allows you to do just that. After you find a few products that fit your bill, you can read reviews by people just like you!
I'll give you the link to the GPS page, but this site has everything you can imagine...its pretty cool!
http://www.buzzillions.com/gps-devices-reviews/n/4294966923/
Hope this helps in making your decision!
Cheers!
I like to use mine for geocaching,:sun
Well, it really depends on what you want to use it for. The preceding discussions focused on navigation. There is some debate as to whether it's needed on the AT, and it must be noted that a lot of people have completed the AT without one.
Garmin's Forerunner isn't a navigating computer. No map, and it just leaves a trail of digital breadcrumbs behind you. It's excellent for keeping track of your pace, the distance you've gone - not straight line distance but every little wriggle in the trail - and the local elevation and time of day. It knows when you've stopped for a break and logs that time separately as "rest time."
It can log a postition, let you change it, and navigate to it, but it's not really happy doing that. And one waypoint at a time is not very efficient.
It calculates calories for you but ignores cumulative elevation gain, something that's inexplicable to me.
It will surely tell you how far you've gone that day. It won't tell you where to get pizza, but I'd bet that a local human can do that for you.
My Forerunner gets about 6.4 hours on a pair of AAA rechargable NiMh batteries, about 12 hours of Duracell Coppertops, 16 hours on Duracell PPix, and about 22 hours on Everready Lithium.
wrightsphoto
11-01-2007, 23:02
I use my Garmin 60CSx for hiking, driving, geocaching and terracaching.
I love it!
With the Helix antenna you can't go wrong!
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=310
If you are looking for a GPS unit why dont you search based on how your'e going to use it and what features are important to you.
Check out this site, it allows you to do just that. After you find a few products that fit your bill, you can read reviews by people just like you!
I'll give you the link to the GPS page, but this site has everything you can imagine...its pretty cool!
http://www.buzzillions.com/gps-devices-reviews/n/4294966923/
Hope this helps in making your decision!
Cheers!
SPAM, SPAM, SPAM, SPAM
All of you posts refer to buzzillions.
Mods?
EWS: I work for Buzzillions.com and I want to get the word out that this is a great site to do research before you buy something. I am not trying to spam anyone. Everything that i wrote was true and I want to help you guys make the right decision.
If you dont like the website, by all means, don't use it. But if you actually clicked on the link that I posted earlier, I think you would see that this is actually a helpful site (especially for the type of questions that the original post was asking).
-Sweiver
Dakota Dan
11-02-2007, 19:15
No GPS needed for any AT hiking, however would be very handy for locating trail-heads and other landmarks for section people. If you have the SW for your PC you can get the track-logs, shelter waypoints, etc off the web. I use several of Garmins Mapsource SW and have a couple of their Etrex Mapping GPS's. Garmin also has a free download, if you already have Mapsource, of NRoute. This is great SW to use in a Laptop with GPS interfaced, while traveling. I like it because it talks to me, telling me turn by turn detail without having to look at the GPS or the Laptop. There is also lots of Free/Shareware on the web to use with almost any GPS unit. And plenty of places to get waypoints and tracklogs. Just be careful of Pre-May 1, 2000 waypoints. They may be off quite a bit due to them being acquired while SA(selective availability) was active. I was given an old Garmin back in their infancy, I just stayed with that brand, I'm sure any brand will be good.
NitroSteel
10-16-2009, 22:33
I did the research on this earlier this year and came to the following conclusion:
Garmin 60csx. It was a toss up between this and the Delorme Earthmate or the Garmin Oregon. The Delorme has the nice (and cheapest) maps, it was the fanciest, but the hardest to work, complicated loading of maps, etc. The Oregon ate batteries fairly quickly and was hard to view in bright sunlight, but had good maps and shading. The 60csx was the most tried and true, and was very reliable, long battery life, very bright under any conditions screen, and accurate. No real complaints on it, but it was not "fancy" like the Delorme or the Oregon by Garmin.
I researched this more than I did sleeping bags. The delorme PN-40 was a close second. Lastly, unless you are going to geo-cache or just had to have the newest thing, the Oregon was not the best choice. It was obvious that many improvements were needed with the Oregon.
I love the 60 csx, I was planning on buying the best, and I feel like that's what I ended up with.
XCskiNYC
10-16-2009, 23:48
If you want a mapping GPS, the Delorme PN20 bundle which includes the GPS, mapping software, digital maps, a 1-Gig SD card, an SD card reader, and a USB-to-GPS adapter cable can be found from about $130.
It's a pretty good value. The only way you are going to get a new unit for any lower a price is getting one that will basically just give you your position.
Delorme has since brought out physically similar units, the PN30 and PN40, which have higher performance CPU's.
The PN20 is not super fast but it's fast enough for hiking purposes. If you feel greatly comforted knowing you have the latest and greatest cutting edge speed, the newer, more expensive Delorme models may be worth their higher prices.
The PN20 is not capable of getting a fix (picking up enough satellites to establish its position) under a heavy canopy of trees. In such a situation you have to wait until you are under lighter foliage or in a clearing to get an initial fix. Once the unit has the initial fix, it can hold onto it in under fairly heavy greenery.
The unit comes with basic Topo USA software with topographical maps of the entire country. You are limited to the unit's internal storage plus the storage on an SD card (up to 2 MB IIRC). A 2MB card will probably fit topo coverage for the entire eastern seaboard. Hiking trails are marked in dotted gray lines and the Appalachian Trail is marked in a dotted red line. This makes the included digital maps especially useful for AT hikers but the coverage of other trails will be sufficient for hiking in most major parks, the White Mountain National Forest, and the like.
For a small additional charge (a $30 yearly subscription fee) you can get more specialized maps from Delorme including google-earth type views, marine charts, and USGS topo maps.
As far as the user interface, I'd say it's not terribly user friendly but neither is it overly confusing. The typical experience will probably be that you will initially use the position and map location modes and then, as you need/want to use the more complicated features, you will learn them one by one. Or you may be a quick learner and fond of working through menus.
The screen on the PN20 (and the other Delorme models) is pretty small, something like 2.5 inches. This means that to use the GPS to survey upcoming terrain, you will have to scroll quite a bit and scrolling (redrawing the map) is not this unit's forte. It takes a long time to redraw the screen. This is where paper maps have a big advantage. A paper map gives you way more information way quicker than a GPS like the PN20.
If you want something with a (relatively) big map and quick redraw such a unit can be had for a few to several hundred bucks, something like the Garmin 400.
That said, I find the PN20 tolerable for things like looking a few miles ahead on the AT and getting an idea of how much up-down is in store.
The power is supplied by two AA's. You can use rechargeable NiMH's or disposable AA's. The unit is pretty power hungry and will burn through two batteries in maybe four or five hours of non-stop use. Because of this I do not usually leave it on continuously but instead use it to take a location fix from time to time. If just using the GPS to read the map, you can turn off satellite reception which saves a lot of juice.
The PN20 is a pretty cool piece of electronics. It has many more features than what I've mentioned here, such as giving you astronomical information for any day of the year. If you like maps and you like electronics, you'll probably enjoy owning and using it.
Garmin Etrex for AA's, a Garmin Geko or the wrist job (I forget the name) that replaced the Geko. You DO NOT need a mapping GPS. You need a paper map, a compass, and the knowledge to use them. A GPS is merely a dead-nuts (as long as it has batteries) substitute for resection/intersection, and if you don't know what I'm talking about you don't have the requisite knowledge to benefit from a GPS. Find Army Field Manual (FM) 21-26 and study it.
No disagreement there! The best use of the GPS is for UTM coordinates. The mapping feature is borderline toy-ish
(Can be useful, but the scale is limiting at times) GPS is best of solving what I call the Whiskey Tango Foxtrot factor. :)
(Instead of WHAT put in WHERE)
(I have the Geko 201 myself..haven't used it much, though. You can download waypoints to it if need be)
Ultimately a GPS complements, but does not supplement a map/compass. Never mind the battery issue.. Unless you know how to read a map and to get some place else, knowing where you are will not do much good. :)
Not a geocacher or a bushwhacker or any other hard-core GPS user, but, in the spirit of multi-use, may I propose the iPhone?
The newest iPhone has GPS (which is NOT dependent on a cell signal), a compass, and has an app made by a company called AccuTerra that provides trail maps by state, National Park, or special areas of interest. In particular, they will soon be releasing "HD maps" of the Southern AT and Northern AT. I don't think the HD maps are any better resolution, but I think they have built in links to local services and the like. I'd tell you more but their website is currently not loading...which is a great sign! The app and two AT maps all cost less than ten bucks.
For the weight, you have maps and other uses such as phone, keeping and posting trail journals/e-mail, camera, video camera, and MP3 player; that's a pretty handy gadget.
Obviously, a dedicated GPS unit probably does a better job with more features, just like a dedicated camera will take crisper pictures. It does seem to me to be a reasonable alternative for the person who wants something that does a lot of things well and nothing perfectly.
Not a geocacher or a bushwhacker or any other hard-core GPS user, but, in the spirit of multi-use, may I propose the iPhone?
The I-Phone is starting to suspiciously sound like a fictional guide that also does everything..... :-?
http://ciccoricco.net/teaching/FinalProject06/ArgumentVictoria.jpg
Wise Old Owl
10-17-2009, 02:36
Anyone, besides me, think its funny that we are making up questions rather than waiting to hear back from the person who started this thread?
Yup thatssss me!
GPS is without a doubt my favorite subject, just cannot get enough and like some other posts I too have over time used different manufactures and units. Magellan is great for entry level users who want the features and low price, Garmin is a bit of a Pita because you need to buy add ons later to add features. SO you don't need a GPS Ok - for me a guy who loves information I just cannot get enough of mapping and printing my trips with photos to an album. Each accomplishment prints to a book for later review.. Purely for my own review later, I don't even share when others come over.
If you can afford to buy a GPS for your enjoyment get what you can afford and you will not be disappointed. Most models are user freindly and provide good information and different uses. I prefer units that can be used in different enviornments. I used a HCX unit strapped to my Kayak to cross Indian River Bay and it helped me find the mouth of Assawoman canal and navigate bouys in the bay, I plotted the ideal course on mapping software and relatives tried to talk me out of it, the GPS made all the difference. Later I went biking on backroads and again a mapping GPS without setup made me a informed local without asking directions. I am now saving up for an Oregon model, and just purchased a Nuvi 500 last Sunday, so keep in mind these are all opinions. So I am happy.
homer_at
10-17-2009, 07:46
I take my GPs along for the occasional check of position, or distance to the shelter, but mainly I use it to geotag my photos. Check that the time in your camera is the same as the GPS unit, then start recording your track, and then start taking pictures. Later, I use the free program called WMMX, to embed the location in the metadata of each photo. Years later you can look at this info to remember where that waterfall was. I also upload the track and photos to www.everytrail.com to see the photos superimposed on my track.
homer_at
nitewalker
10-17-2009, 08:01
buy a blackberry storm! it has a gps,3.2megapixel camera,video, radio, calendar,calculator,internet , u can tether it to a computer and has almost anything else you may need. oh yea it doesnt turn into a multitool.......:eek:
Lucy Lulu
10-17-2009, 08:03
Used a Garmin HCX on my CDT hike this year, and it worked out fine. I was able to load all of the maps for NM, CO, WY, ID, and MT by just adding a little 2G card. The unit is about 2 years old.
The PN20 is not capable of getting a fix (picking up enough satellites to establish its position) under a heavy canopy of trees. In such a situation you have to wait until you are under lighter foliage or in a clearing to get an initial fix. Once the unit has the initial fix, it can hold onto it in under fairly heavy greenery.
The power is supplied by two AA's. You can use rechargeable NiMH's or disposable AA's. The unit is pretty power hungry and will burn through two batteries in maybe four or five hours of non-stop use. Because of this I do not usually leave it on continuously but instead use it to take a location fix from time to time.
I can verify everything you've said about the DeLorme PN-20. However, both of these points taken together point out a problem in this mode of operation. Almost never on the Eastern footpaths (maybe on rail-trails) do you come to a spot open enough for the PN-20 to get a quick fix. In my attempts at this kind of operation it's a full lunch break to get a fix.
I also own a Garmin 60CSx (and have use of a 76CSx) that can get a fix in typical PA A.T. canopy while walking.
So you can use the PN-20 this way to get maybe a day out of the batteries; but the Garmin CSx used this way gets more than a long weekend on trail, out of batteries that have been sitting in the unit in the truck for months.
(However the PN-20's bright colors mean you can find it in said truck, as opposed to the Garmin. :banana)
I've only used a GPS once while hiking. That was in the Boundary Waters last May. Rumor had it that the trail was non-existent and a PITA to follow (wasn't bad at all). I carried a Garmin Legend CSx and it worked very well. No complaints from me. Much smaller than the 76CSx. I wouldn't consider carrying it for the AT, but will probably carry it again for solo trips in remote areas and with more obscure trails. Doesn't replace Map and Compass, but is a nice, quick compliment.
XCskiNYC
10-27-2009, 22:06
I can verify everything you've said about the DeLorme PN-20. However, both of these points taken together point out a problem in this mode of operation. Almost never on the Eastern footpaths (maybe on rail-trails) do you come to a spot open enough for the PN-20 to get a quick fix. In my attempts at this kind of operation it's a full lunch break to get a fix.
I also own a Garmin 60CSx (and have use of a 76CSx) that can get a fix in typical PA A.T. canopy while walking.
So you can use the PN-20 this way to get maybe a day out of the batteries; but the Garmin CSx used this way gets more than a long weekend on trail, out of batteries that have been sitting in the unit in the truck for months.
(However the PN-20's bright colors mean you can find it in said truck, as opposed to the Garmin. :banana)
The battery usage and receiver sensitivity sound superior on the 60csx versus the PN20. Those would be definite plus points for the Garmin unit.
But as for getting to a spot where you can get a fix with the PN20, well, I use the "sunshine" theory. Yes, it has to actually be a sunny day, not a given, especially during the mid summer in the Northeast this year. Anyway, since the radio signals from the satellite are line of sight, anywhere you can see a fair amount of sunlight hitting the ground, the signals from the satellite have a pretty good chance of hitting the antenna on your GPS.
In the parts of the trail where I have hiked (Bear Mtn. Bridge to CT), it never took me more than 20 minutes to get to a spot with a sufficiently large clearing to get a fix.
*****************************
The Maps Included with PN20:
Previously I mentioned that for the $30 subscription fee you can get satellite photo images, USGS quads, and nautical charts for the PN20. Some people may have interpreted that to mean that the included digital maps with the Topo USA 7.0 (or now 8.0) software do not have sufficient detail for hiking.
This is not the case. The included digital maps with the Topo USA software, covering the entire US, have ample detail for hiking, including 20-foot contour lines. As a side note: the level of detail does not vary according to the map section which you download (either to the unit's integral memory or to the SD card). The potential level of detail is the same. It varies according to the level of zoom you choose on the GPS unit.
As for storage capability for the maps, this depends on whether you use the integral memory or the SD card. The integral memory I believe is 50 Mb. The SD card can be, I think, up to 2 Gigs. On a 1-Gb card I currently have detailed coverage of all of New York City, southern New York State (Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam, and Dutchess counties), CT, MA, and the White Mountains area of NH. The card has 287.57 bytes free.
Were you to need coverage of more areas you could simply load it onto additional SD cards. A set of 10 2-Gig cards would probably cover the continental US.
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Overall Cost of PN20 versus Garmin Units:
The included set of Topo USA digital maps, covering the entire US, make the Delorme PN20 a very good value (along with the low price for the bundle with the PN20, Topo USA, an SD card, a data cable, and batteries). When comparing cost with a Garmin unit, remember that you will still need to buy the digital maps for the Garmin separately. Selling for between $80 to $120, these digital maps cover only sections of the US. So, obviously, to get a Garmin unit to where it's useful for hiking, you need to buy at least one of these separate sets of digital maps.
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If You Like the Economics of the Delorme Package but Want More Speed:
Look into the PN40. It has much faster satellite acquisition and a faster CPU (faster map redraws). It's packaged with the same digital maps as the PN20.
XCskiNYC
10-27-2009, 22:10
The figure of 287.57 bytes in my last post should be 287.57 MEGA Bytes.
Wise Old Owl
10-27-2009, 22:25
You dug up a old thread now I have to argue with my old posts...Just kidding.
I saw a Garmin "Colorado" model that was impressive, specifically for "geocaching".
I don't care to carry a big unit like that.
I thought I would mention it tho'
SunnyWalker
10-30-2009, 01:40
They are great of course for the UTM coords. Bit heavey though. If you can afford the weight, take 'em and have fun. They ARE fun.
XCskiNYC
11-01-2009, 11:49
Thanks gang, having seen so many different types, etc, I have been curious as to what the experiences have been. Has anyone found that the use of a GPS really prevented them from getting into or helped them out of a real scary situation?
The Dolorme with its extras looks real fascinating.
Interesting query. I sense perhaps some skepticism on your part as to the value of a GPS.
If you are only going to have a single navigation implement, I'd first recommend a compass. That should be followed very shortly by a recent, detailed map of the area where you will be hiking.
However, GPS is also very useful and, if you can depend on your unit to be totally reliable (meaning totally ignoring Murphy's Law), a GPS would be fine as your sole navigational tool.
Interestingly, according to a recent NY Times article on Google's new free GPS service, the popularity of standalone units (versus cellphones with the function) peaked right around the time of your first post:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/technology/companies/29gps.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=google%20gps&st=cse
I usually read the Daily News because the Times costs two bucks now for the weekday edition, but somebody left a copy on a Metro-North train so I grabbed it for reading material on my recent hike.:cool:
Getting back to your question: Has it ever helped me out of trouble.
Okay, it was about 1410 and I was standing at the side of CT341 outside of Kent. I needed to be at the Metro-North train station about eight miles away to catch the the 1428 train to Grand Central. If you miss that one out in the boonies, the next train is two hours later.
I said hello to a mountain biker coming up the road. Turns out he was just putting his bike into a parked SUV and I asked if he was going towards the train line. Turned out no but he offered a ride anyway.
The route from where we were on CT341 to the train station involved several intersections at little backcountry county roads. I put the GPS on the dashboard where it could get the signal through the windshield and gave the guy directions to the station where I ended up grabbing my pack and running up the steps and onto the train just as the doors closed.
Thank you GPS! And thank you mountain bike guy.
mister pooh
11-01-2009, 13:50
Just got a new Delorme PN-30 yesterday. Getting ready to hike the little 3 mile trail at Sesquicentennial State Park near my house this afternoon to test it out.
Been playing around with importing maps to it with the included Topo USA 8.0 software. So far works like a champ. It can even get a fix inside my house, which I think is pretty cool.
XCskiNYC
11-01-2009, 14:20
Just got a new Delorme PN-30 yesterday. Getting ready to hike the little 3 mile trail at Sesquicentennial State Park near my house this afternoon to test it out.
Been playing around with importing maps to it with the included Topo USA 8.0 software. So far works like a champ. It can even get a fix inside my house, which I think is pretty cool.
I'm gonna guess you live in a wood-frame house?
Seriously, congratulations. I can't wait to upgrade. Is the PN30 identical to the PN40 but without the compass and barometer?
The Old Fhart
11-01-2009, 15:46
XCskiNYC-"Is the PN30 identical to the PN40 but without the compass and barometer?"This link (http://www.delorme.com//PN40/images/PNSeriesComparisonChart.pdf) explains the differences. One other difference is the PN-30 comes in green or camo.
Wise Old Owl
11-01-2009, 16:18
I am partial to Garmin, but if you are going to be in the woods, make sure you get one with and "x" in the model name. The new "x" models have a higher sensitivity and will not lose the satellite signal even in heavy tree cover.
The Oregon series does not reflect the x yet they act like they do, different antenna same value.
mister pooh
11-01-2009, 22:42
Took the PN-30 out this afternoon. Worked great! I'm a GIS analyst (well intern, I'm still in school), and was a Quartermaster in the Navy before that, and this unit is an awesome consumer model GPS, on par with the Garmin X models for getting and keeping a fix. I was under trees most of the time, and it stayed locked.
Screen is smallish, but nice and readable. Marking waypoints and generally "driving" the unit with one hand is simple. I didn't have it out long enough to really check battery life, but it didn't go down a bar in 2 hours.
I'm still playing around with the software. Importing the track and waypoints from the unit is pretty straightforward, but editing them is a bit of a pain. A lot of the features are tucked away under strange menus and in corners of the screen. I've been living with the user manual in PDF opened next to the software and constantly rechecking it.
So far, I'm really pleased with the quality, and the price is hard to beat. I got it for $199 at Amazon. And, it's green and I do live in a wood framed house :)
Wise Old Owl
11-01-2009, 23:47
I have to admit I am stumped as I always wanted to be the go-to person for questions on this topic, OK for years.. now I don't. I really like mapping GPS! some don't. Its like asking for fried chicken without a biscuit and gravy. My new tact is if you can afford it, get the best you can afford and you will not be disappointed. Register separate disks and other add ons takes patience. One piece systems are priceless.
Rambler1
11-02-2009, 16:53
I can't believe I'm reading it.....
Wise Old Owl
11-02-2009, 22:52
I can't believe I'm reading it.....
Reading what - your post is ambiguous.
SunnyWalker
11-06-2009, 02:12
Forgot to mention, I use a Magellan XL Eplorist. A bit heavy for some. Very good, though and nice screen. Unlimited capacity. I can't hike with it on all the time though. I just use it when I need to or at the end of the day, etc.
As some have mentioned, one dual use (actually "multiple use") option is some sort of smartphone with an integrated GPS chip, iPhone or Windows Mobile platform or whatever. I was happy with this approach on the PCT last year, and wrote up some thoughts on selecting a smartphone (http://postholer.com/smartPhone.html) for long distance backpacking.
While I would normally agree with the idea that a GPS isn't needed on the AT, since I already own it and use the device for various purposes I'll carry the same phone on the AT next year. Given how well the AT is supposed to be marked/signed, I will in fact not carry any maps apart from maps on my Smartphone, so that offsets some of the and expense. The ability to carry the AT Companion in pdf form is a real plus too.