View Full Version : Alcohol Stoves and the cold
I Plan on taking my GiGa power stove with on my Thur-Hike but also wonder how well a alcohol stove would work. I will be leaving on Feb 04 2008 and wonder how well alcohol
stoves work when get below 32 deg. I know canister stoves can have some trouble but i found a way to helpkeep the canister warm . made a cozy for them out of foam.
Thank :-?
I Plan on taking my GiGa power stove with on my Thur-Hike but also wonder how well a alcohol stove would work. I will be leaving on Feb 04 2008 and wonder how well alcohol
stoves work when get below 32 deg. I know canister stoves can have some trouble but i found a way to helpkeep the canister warm . made a cozy for them out of foam.
Thank :-?
Your alcohol stove will take longer to bloom at 32F, but alcohol burns at that temperature. And because the stove, the fuel, the pot, and the water in your pot are colder than in the summer, expect longer boil times.
I wouldn't expect your canister cozy to keep your fuel warm. Insulation does not produce heat. Maybe you plan to warm the canister in your pocket, and then slip it into a cozy, just before lighting.
wrt alcohol stoves in the cold - the only issue is in getting the stove to light - there are several methods - the one I prefer requires a fairly open stove so I can reach the surface of the alcohol with a burning match - other techniques involve keeping the fuel warm before putting it in the stove or warming the stove and fuel after putting the fuel in the stove
wrt to the cozy for the fuel canister - I suspect this will not work well because it is the vaporization of the fuel in the canister that tends to make the canister cold and a cozy is just keeping the cold generated by the canister away from possible sources of warmth - a better approach would be to put the canister in a pan of lukewarm water
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 18:00
They love their alcohol stoves in Sweden. That should tell you it still works in cold weather.
Rift Zone
10-21-2007, 18:14
I know canister stoves can have some troubleBoth types of fuel (and white gas for that matter) burn only as a vapor. They do not burn in liquid form. If your canister fuel is too cold, the internal pressure of the vapor will drop to the point where it will barely spew any fuel at all. Alcohol stoves also require some internal pressure to operate. Most are designed with a dual sidewall giving them a vaporization chamber. The thing with alcohol stoves: they rely on the heat they produce to get the vaporization prosess up to par. With canisters, on warmer days, air temperature is sufficient. Alcohol has to be at a much higher temperature to adequately vaporize.
alcohol stoves in the cold - the only issue is in getting the stove to lightIt can get to the point where there is not enough vapor to support a flame at all.
Keep your fuels warm -in your jacket or something, and they will both work just fine. Sitll, I imagine alcohol in the cold is worse than wood-burners in the rain.
Appalachian Tater
10-21-2007, 18:22
Alcohol works fine in a supercat in cold temperatures. You just have to let it burn for a few seconds before you set the pot down on it. The same is true in the summer, I never thought about whether you have to wait a noticeably longer time. You're using so little alcohol compare to the surface area where it is vaporizing and burning that it heats up quickly. Think about sticking a pie pan on a gas stove with a quarter inch of water in it and then turning it on high. The water will heat up fast.
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 18:25
Another trick I use with my stove is to "spill" a little extra alcohol around the base of it on my aluminum foil reflector. When you light the fuel - that extra bit helps prime the stove to warm it up as it starts its cycle.
shelterbuilder
10-21-2007, 19:32
Both types of fuel (and white gas for that matter) burn only as a vapor. They do not burn in liquid form. If your canister fuel is too cold, the internal pressure of the vapor will drop to the point where it will barely spew any fuel at all. Alcohol stoves also require some internal pressure to operate. Most are designed with a dual sidewall giving them a vaporization chamber. The thing with alcohol stoves: they rely on the heat they produce to get the vaporization prosess up to par. With canisters, on warmer days, air temperature is sufficient. Alcohol has to be at a much higher temperature to adequately vaporize. It can get to the point where there is not enough vapor to support a flame at all.
Keep your fuels warm -in your jacket or something, and they will both work just fine. Sitll, I imagine alcohol in the cold is worse than wood-burners in the rain.
I'm old enough to remember when "pure" butane canister stoves were popular. The only problem with them was that pure butane doesn't vaporize well in the winter AT SEA LEVEL. If you take butane up to higher altitudes, there's no real problem with the vaporization at colder temps. But for lower altitude cold weather camping, you had to sleep with your canister to keep it working in the morning. (A butane/propane mix isn't subject to this problem; neither is propane.) I have no experience with alcohol stoves - yet - but I would assume that the same principle applies.
Rift Zone
10-21-2007, 21:32
The only problem with them was that pure butane doesn't vaporize well in the winter AT SEA LEVEL. If you take butane up to higher altitudes, there's no real problem with the vaporization at colder temps....I have no experience with alcohol stoves - yet - but I would assume that the same principle applies.Ya, the reduced air pressure will make alcohol more prone to evaporation but not to point where it remedys the difficultiys with temperature.
Then again, like Rock said: a little overspill to make a mini bon fire for a moment will do the trick.
If you are not used to using the Alcy stoves I'd make sure to get some testing done before your hike in cold and windy wet weather. Leaving that early could bring some really cold weather way below 32 degrees. But I've seen people out there with their beloved alcys so it can work.
Fiddleback
10-22-2007, 09:28
They love their alcohol stoves in Sweden.
As do, reportedly, the Sherpas in the Himalyas. And while they're not 'Pepsi can' stoves, alcohol stoves on the Iditarod, Yukon Quest, etc., have been very popular as is HEET to fuel em'.
FB
Both types of fuel (and white gas for that matter) burn only as a vapor. They do not burn in liquid form. If your canister fuel is too cold, the internal pressure of the vapor will drop to the point where it will barely spew any fuel at all. Alcohol stoves also require some internal pressure to operate. Most are designed with a dual sidewall giving them a vaporization chamber. The thing with alcohol stoves: they rely on the heat they produce to get the vaporization prosess up to par. With canisters, on warmer days, air temperature is sufficient. Alcohol has to be at a much higher temperature to adequately vaporize. It can get to the point where there is not enough vapor to support a flame at all.
Keep your fuels warm -in your jacket or something, and they will both work just fine. Sitll, I imagine alcohol in the cold is worse than wood-burners in the rain.
This is the reason I use the technique of touching the match to the surface of the alcohol - the burning match locally vaporizes some of the cold alcohol and fairly quickly the burning alcohol vapor warms the remaining surface of the alcohol enough to have a sustained burn. Note dunking the match into the alcohol will often just put the match out thus the emphasis on just touching the surface of the alcohol with the match. BTW it does not need to be a real match - one can just dip a trig or some pine straw into the alcohol, light the twig from a lighter and then use the burning twig like it was a match.
gold bond
10-22-2007, 09:56
I as well found out that a good tight windscreen is a plus. I was using my alchahol stove with out a windscreen and found out that with a windscreen, ecspecially in colder temps, i used less fuel and boiling times were better. Be sure to take a little extra fuel in colder temps.Overall I like my AS better than anyother stove I have had.
Get a small hip flask made for carrying booze, they are not expensive and are supposedly leak-proof. Mine has never leaked anyways. The smallest ones will carry enough for several meals, refill from your main container whenever necessary. Carry it in an inner pocket, as close to the body as practical so your body heat keeps it warm. Get everything else ready, then take out the flask, pour in the warm alky, and light it. Most of the flasks have a cap that holds around an ounce so measuring is quick and easy. Lights first time, (almost) every time.
patinj--
Alcohol stoves are ok in winter if you accept some limitations:
(1) you need a sheltered location and windscreen
(2) prewarm the priming alcohol and a butane lighter in an inner pocket
(3) for setups in which the pot rests directly on the stove, e.g., mini-Zen stove, it helps to insulate the bottom of the pot where it contacts alcohol vapor, not flame, with a thin layer of Si sealant/adhesive. This mod keeps the cold pot from quenching the stove pressure build up
(4) the ultralight alcohol stoves, as opposed to expedition models, are not designed to melt snow for water. Make another plan.
Walt
Footslogger
10-22-2007, 16:17
I Plan on taking my GiGa power stove with on my Thur-Hike but also wonder how well a alcohol stove would work. I will be leaving on Feb 04 2008 and wonder how well alcohol
stoves work when get below 32 deg. I know canister stoves can have some trouble but i found a way to helpkeep the canister warm . made a cozy for them out of foam.
Thank :-?
===================================
They work fine. Carried an alcohol (Trangia) with me all the way on my thru in 2003 and still use it out here all year round. Just about all fuels are slow to vaporize and ignite at colder temps. But once you have them lit they work fine.
'Slogger
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 16:21
This is the reason I use the technique of touching the match to the surface of the alcohol - the burning match locally vaporizes some of the cold alcohol and fairly quickly the burning alcohol vapor warms the remaining surface of the alcohol enough to have a sustained burn. Note dunking the match into the alcohol will often just put the match out thus the emphasis on just touching the surface of the alcohol with the match. BTW it does not need to be a real match - one can just dip a trig or some pine straw into the alcohol, light the twig from a lighter and then use the burning twig like it was a match.
You can put a match out in gasoline if there is no vapor. I wouldn't try, it, but it is good to understand that you are lighting and burning vaporized substance instead of the puddle of liquid fuel.
shelterbuilder
10-22-2007, 18:23
Get a small hip flask made for carrying booze, they are not expensive and are supposedly leak-proof. Mine has never leaked anyways. The smallest ones will carry enough for several meals, refill from your main container whenever necessary. Carry it in an inner pocket, as close to the body as practical so your body heat keeps it warm. Get everything else ready, then take out the flask, pour in the warm alky, and light it. Most of the flasks have a cap that holds around an ounce so measuring is quick and easy. Lights first time, (almost) every time.
Thanks for the tip - sounds good and EASY! I think that I saw one at Wally World.
Skidsteer
10-22-2007, 18:41
Get a small hip flask made for carrying booze, they are not expensive and are supposedly leak-proof. Mine has never leaked anyways. The smallest ones will carry enough for several meals, refill from your main container whenever necessary. Carry it in an inner pocket, as close to the body as practical so your body heat keeps it warm. Get everything else ready, then take out the flask, pour in the warm alky, and light it. Most of the flasks have a cap that holds around an ounce so measuring is quick and easy. Lights first time, (almost) every time.
Thanks for the tip - sounds good and EASY! I think that I saw one at Wally World.
It's a good idea to label or mark such a container so that hiking partners aren't tempted to sneak a wee dram to ward off the chills when you're looking the other way.
Unless, of course, you never liked the thieving drunk in the first place.
shelterbuilder
10-22-2007, 18:52
It's a good idea to label or mark such a container so that hiking partners aren't tempted to sneak a wee dram to ward off the chills when you're looking the other way.
Unless, of course, you never liked the thieving drunk in the first place.
Yeah, I thought about that...and I usually leave the "thieving drunk" hiking partners back at the bar, so we'll both have a good time!:banana
gold bond
10-23-2007, 09:54
It's a good idea to label or mark such a container so that hiking partners aren't tempted to sneak a wee dram to ward off the chills when you're looking the other way.
Unless, of course, you never liked the thieving drunk in the first place.
Yeah...mark the Denatured alcahol bottle...don't mark the "pee" bottle. That'll keep 'em out your pack!!;)
Another trick I use with my stove is to "spill" a little extra alcohol around the base of it on my aluminum foil reflector. When you light the fuel - that extra bit helps prime the stove to warm it up as it starts its cycle.
I have taken a fire starter (Vaseline and Cotton Ball) and set it next to or on top of the stove to pre-heat the alcohol. Or wrap a poly wick around the sides of the stove and pore a few drops of alcohol on the wick. Light it and it will heat the stove fast.
whitefoot_hp
10-23-2007, 12:18
so how low (temp wise) would some of you go with alcohol stoves?
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 12:22
I'm starting 27 January with alcohol.
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 12:24
Just stick the bottle of alcohol in your pocket for a while before using it if you're worried about the temperature. The wind is more of a problem in my opinion.
Dances with Mice
10-23-2007, 12:33
so how low (temp wise) would some of you go with alcohol stoves?Well, the guys that run the Iditirod and Yukon Quest dog sled races use alcohol stoves to melt gallons of snow in temps way, way below 0. They seem to know what they're doing.
Footslogger
10-23-2007, 12:33
so how low (temp wise) would some of you go with alcohol stoves?
====================================
Have used alcohol at temps way below freezing out here without any problems. One thing I sometimes do is dip the end of a small stick in the alcohol, light it and then stick that into the reservoir of my stove to light it. Works a lot better than a butane lighter or short stick match.
'Slogger
so how low (temp wise) would some of you go with alcohol stoves?
Well, the guys that run the Iditirod and Yukon Quest dog sled races use alcohol stoves to melt gallons of snow in temps way, way below 0. They seem to know what they're doing.
In my research about hiking in Lapland (partly above the Arctic Circle), I've read that the most commonly available fuel is alcohol, used in Trangia-type stoves. I'll be taking an alcohol stove.
PS--I'm multi-quote crazy now!
oldfivetango
10-23-2007, 15:45
I like to use a primer pan.You can make the alcohol get hot real
quick with a primer pan and a candle or a long neck lighter.Personally,
I aint got what it takes to use a little disposable lighter that close to
the invisible flammable alcohol.:D
Oldifvetango
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 15:47
I like to use a primer pan.You can make the alcohol get hot real
quick with a primer pan and a candle or a long neck lighter.Personally,
I aint got what it takes to use a little disposable lighter that close to
the invisible flammable alcohol.:D
Oldifvetango
Yes, I may add a few grams to my pack (ouch!) for a priming pan.
allright, Marta, what is this Lapland thing?
allright, Marta, what is this Lapland thing?
It's where I'm aiming to hike next summer. Apparently there are trails all across and around Lapland, which is the northermost part of Sweden, Norway, and Finland. It sounds perfect for a nervous hiker like me--huts (some selling food, stove alcohol, and even meals), developed trails, bridges across the biggest water obstacles, and no grizzlies.
Skidsteer
10-23-2007, 17:18
Yes, I may add a few grams to my pack (ouch!) for a priming pan.
You can use one of those aluminum foil ashtrays (http://www.jumpcut.com/fullscreen?id=EB1A88CE81AC11DC9363000423CEF5F6&type=image). They weigh about 1 1/2 grams. If you cut out the corresponding diameter in your reflector it should come close to evening out. :D
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 17:34
I already have one - it is about that weight.
With cold weather and any fuel, the problem becomes not so much vaporization of the fuel, but how fast the environment steals the heat away from your water, soup, whatever. Since alcohol cannot match cannisters or liquid petroleum (gasoline) in BTU output, it will take much longer (using more fuel) to boil that 2 cups of water in 20 degree weather than at, say, 50 degrees. I like the idea that alcohol is a renewable resource, but i tend to take a cannister stove when temps are around freezing and the old Whisperlite when it's below 20 or so. (I've become fond of Esbit tabs for weight savings in warm weather, and, shame on me, rarely use my Supercat stove anymore.
Footslogger
10-24-2007, 09:21
[quote=Tinker;432710]With cold weather and any fuel, the problem becomes not so much vaporization of the fuel, but how fast the environment steals the heat away from your water, soup, whatever.
========================================
True ...up to a point. Once your stove is roaring AND if you have an efficient wind screen I really don't think you lose any more heat using one sort of stove/fuel than with another if you keep your cookpot covered. I say that having used both alcohol and cannister (propane/butane) stove/fuels extensively.
'Slogger
Fiddleback
10-24-2007, 11:01
With cold weather and any fuel, the problem becomes not so much vaporization of the fuel, but how fast the environment steals the heat away from your water, soup, whatever. Since alcohol cannot match cannisters or liquid petroleum (gasoline) in BTU output, it will take much longer (using more fuel) to boil that 2 cups of water in 20 degree weather than at, say, 50 degrees. I like the idea that alcohol is a renewable resource, but i tend to take a cannister stove when temps are around freezing and the old Whisperlite when it's below 20 or so. (I've become fond of Esbit tabs for weight savings in warm weather, and, shame on me, rarely use my Supercat stove anymore.
Generally speaking, nothing changes. Two cups of water at ambient temperature take more BTUs to reach boiling starting from 20 than from 50 degrees, other variables remaining the same. The relative performance of stoves should be little effected by temperature; all stoves will take more time and/or fuel at lower temps. It is true that it will take longer/more fuel at 20 for an alcohol stove...but it also takes longer at 50.
FB
Wolf - 23000
10-26-2007, 20:43
I've use my alcohol Stoves for the last 14,000 miles, about 4,000 which were in the winter. For what you are talking about under taken it will work fine with a little common sense. Things like use the water in your water bottle to cook with first rather than from the cold spring (saves fuel), use a wind screen - in the winter it is normal winder, put a lid on your pot, etc.
Hopes this helps,
Wolf
Mr. Clean
10-27-2007, 05:21
I have used my lighter on the bottom of the stove to warm the fuel in it with no problems.
i use a supercat stove, for a primer can, i bought one of the larger size cat cans, cut the sides so that above the bottom of the can, there is a 1/4" edge all around, simple and works great
glad i saw this thread, hadn't really thought about how the cold affects my alky stove, i hope it doesn't get tooo cold over the next month, nights are suppose to get in the 30's this week as i go through md and wv!
Nightwalker
10-27-2007, 12:26
I Plan on taking my GiGa power stove with on my Thur-Hike but also wonder how well a alcohol stove would work. I will be leaving on Feb 04 2008 and wonder how well alcohol
stoves work when get below 32 deg. I know canister stoves can have some trouble but i found a way to helpkeep the canister warm . made a cozy for them out of foam.
Thank :-?
I put wickatized primer trays on my homemade stoves. They light very fast, even in the cold.
Nightwalker
10-27-2007, 12:38
====================================
Have used alcohol at temps way below freezing out here without any problems. One thing I sometimes do is dip the end of a small stick in the alcohol, light it and then stick that into the reservoir of my stove to light it. Works a lot better than a butane lighter or short stick match.
'Slogger
I've done the same. Works great. Remember the invisible flame!
Username75
10-27-2007, 15:17
I Plan on taking my GiGa power stove with on my Thur-Hike but also wonder how well a alcohol stove would work. I will be leaving on Feb 04 2008 and wonder how well alcohol
stoves work when get below 32 deg. I know canister stoves can have some trouble but i found a way to helpkeep the canister warm . made a cozy for them out of foam.
Thank :-?
I carry a peice of felt slighty larger than a Valasic pickle jar lid, i put this on the ground, then the pickle jar lid.
i dribble a few(2) teasponns of alcohol in the lid turned with the Lable side down.
place a filled stove and lite.
this preheats the stove before lighting, when the flames almost die down lite the pepsi stove filled half way up, it will soon blossom into a nice blue flame.
then place you pan, or pot on the stove.
Yes i always use a windscreen.
hope this helps
sam
skskinner
11-21-2007, 14:06
Take a look at this. I have one of these.
http://vargooutdoors.safeshopper.com/73/1601.htm?952
The Vargo Titanium Triad XE is a dual-fuel (alcohol / fuel tab) stove. The XE was designed for weight-conscious backpackers that recognize the advantages and disadvantages of burning denatured alcohol. Specifically, denatured alcohol does not burn as well in high altitude (generally over 11,000 feet) or very cold temperatures (below 20 degrees F). In these situations burning fuel tabs is recommended.
Characteristics of burning alcohol in the XE include intense heat during the priming stage and moderate heat once primed. Once primed the stove is very fuel efficient, using very little alcohol. In general, the XE can be used effectively in any condition, making it a stove that we believe sets a higher standard in ultralight hiking.
NOTE: A special windscreen is required! The windscreen will maintain the intensity and efficiency of the flame. Please see our homepage at www.vargooutdoors.com for instructions on how to make the windscreen.
FEATURES:
> removable inner container
> compact design
> retractable top and bottom legs
> easy to fill
> burn time: approx 25 minutes
> boils two cups of water in approximately 6 minutes
> fits any size pot (If you use a small diameter pot for cooking, such as a mug, simply fold the top legs in so that they rest against the top of the inner container)
WEIGHT: 1.5 oz.
INSTRUCTIONS:
1) Fully extend the top and bottom legs and press stove legs into ground to create a stable surface (do not light on a rock or picnic table, etc).
2) Remove lid from inner container and carefully pour denatured alcohol inside container to desired level.
3) Lightly press on lid to create a seal (do not over press or lid will become difficult to remove).
4) Prime stove by squirting 5~6 drops of alcohol between the outer and inner container then light.
-If burning fuel tabs simply remove inner container and place fuel tab in center of outer base.
Haven't read all the posts yet, so my appologies if this was already mentioned.
Some have mentioned that you could pre-warm the stove/fuel before lighting. Antigravity Gear sells a priming disk that is meant for just such a purpose. You set your stove on the disc, add a bit of fuel to the disk and light it. This pre-warms the stove with fuel in it, and ignites the stove once the fuel begins to vent out the side ports of the antigravity stove. I'm sure it would work with other types of stove also, maybe not all. I cannot attest to it's use in the winter, but assume it would help if that's the route you want to try.
take-a-knee
11-21-2007, 15:51
That Vargo has a few limitations, namely, if you put less than one ounce of alcohol in it, it won't light. A Heine can does fit inside those legs, and if you boil 16+oz of water, it works okay. The esbit thing is handy, just flip it over. Carry some esbit with it and it make a good backup stove. It also doesn't work well with most solo pots, it'll tip easily cause the legs come nearly to the edge of the pot.
skskinner
11-21-2007, 16:32
That Vargo has a few limitations, namely, if you put less than one ounce of alcohol in it, it won't light. A Heine can does fit inside those legs, and if you boil 16+oz of water, it works okay. The esbit thing is handy, just flip it over. Carry some esbit with it and it make a good backup stove. It also doesn't work well with most solo pots, it'll tip easily cause the legs come nearly to the edge of the pot.
You are right about those limitations. I ground notches in the legs to hole pots better. Thanks for your comment. Mule (Steve)