Down bag mystery

[earthbound]

I recently bought the REI sub kilo- it is a 15 degree, down bag, fits perfect (not too big or small). I just got back from the Superior Hiking Trail and the temps were in the 40s at night. I did not compress the bag very much during the day and shook it out when I got to camp and let it lay out for several hours before I got into the bag. At night I got into the bag and was cold for hours. I pulled the cords tight around my face, didn't roll around and I was still cold. I would however wake up in the middle of the night toasty warm. It was really weird. I've never used a downbag before this so I'm wondering if this is a down bag problem or just a weird, abnormal problem. I sleep cold, but not THAT cold. I thought that maybe the bag just continued to loft over the course of the night and therefore made me warmer. Thoughts? Ohh and I used a Thermarest Prolite 3 short for my torso and put my sleepingbag under my feet.

[earthbound]

sleepingbag under my feet.

sorry, backpack under the feet :rolleyes:

[dessertrat]

How strange. . . until I read your correction, I read "sleeping bag" as "backpack", and didn't even notice the error. . . that's the power of expectations, I guess.

All I can imagine is that your "time to loft" theory might be correct. Did you take it out of the stuff sack as soon as you made camp, or did you wait until you were ready to retire?

[saimyoji]

Here's my explanation, and you'll get what you paid for: ;)

What was the temp when you went to bed? I ask because your body will retain heat in your core (chest region) and try hard not to release heat (through your skin by constricting blood vessels to reduce flow to your extremeties, and reduce flow to the skin in general) if its even a little chilly. When you got into your bag, your body was actively trying to conserve heat. The bag works like an oven: you have to heat it for it to work, not it heating you up. If your body won't release much heat, it won't heat up the bag much. Hence, it took a while for your body to heat up, allow some heat radiation, heating up the bag.

Make sense?

Try this in the future: Don't get in your bag chilly. Have something to eat, do some jumping jacks, wear a warm hat/socks.

Off course it could just be a faulty bag? :eek: :D

[Roland]

Earthbound,

I wouldn't expect to be cold, for hours, in a 15 degree bag, when the temperature is 40F.

A sleeping bag, down or synthetic, does not produce heat. The warmth comes from your body, and the bag merely holds the heat around you.

The time it takes for your body to warm the bag, depends on a number of variables. First, your "furnace" must be producing heat. To do this, your body needs high caloric fuel, and must be hydrated to work efficiently. At the start of their hikes, many report that they have no appetite. If that was true with you, perhaps you didn't eat enough to generate much heat.

You also state that you "let it lay out for several hours before I got into the bag". Although it takes any sleeping bag some time to fully loft, upon removing it from a stuff sac, leaving on the ground for as long as you did may have allowed the cold and dampness to settle in. This would extend the warm-up time.

Lastly, did you go to bed with wet, or even damp, clothing? This, too, could produce a chilling effect, and take longer for your body heat to warm the bag. Dry socks and a hat are helpful.

[Roland]

It seems that saim and I are on the same wavelength. But he's a faster typist!

[Appalachian Tater]

15 deg bag, 40 deg temps, cold then hot, is it possible you were sick and had fever and chills? What were you wearing? A hat helps a lot in a situation like that because it is effective and easy to don & doff.

[earthbound]

I was wearing a baselayer top and bottom, fleece pants, clean dry socks, and a fleece hat- all of which I normally wear when hiking/ camping. My bag was totally dry and even though my hike was through the wettest conditions I have ever been in, I change into a dry set of clothes at camp. So, everything was dry. I've been in a lot of sleeping bags and have never had the problem of warming up quickly in a bag before unless the temps were below the rating on the bag. So, this is pretty unusual for a down bag?

[oldfivetango]

While we are on the subject of down bags,I would like to know
how everyone stores their bag when it is not being used at home.
I would like to have one but it is my understanding that it needs to
be "spread out" and I just don't have room for that .(Like I can really
see Mrs Tango with a JRB Nest and Old Rag Mountain spread out on
her bed most of the year:D )
Oldfivetango

[Topcat]

I have the same bag and am comfortable in it below 20 with no additional layers on. Good think is, if you just arent comfy, they will take it back

[SGT Rock]

I keep mine on some top shelves in my basement workshop. They are not spread out - but they are not stuffed or compressed in any way either.

[Appalachian Tater]

While we are on the subject of down bags,I would like to know
how everyone stores their bag when it is not being used at home.
I would like to have one but it is my understanding that it needs to
be "spread out" and I just don't have room for that .(Like I can really
see Mrs Tango with a JRB Nest and Old Rag Mountain spread out on
her bed most of the year:D )
Oldfivetango

I have a space problem as well. My summer bag fits nicely in my suitcase and my winter bag floats around in a closet, each in a cotton storage bag that came with them.

http://marmot.com/service/faq

11. How do I store my down bag?

The Down Doctor sez, “DO NOT store your down sleeping bag in a stuff sack. If it has been stored in a stuff sack, take it out, stretch it out, and let it rest for a few days. Then wash the bag, and dry it thoroughly on low to medium heat. To tell if the bag is completely dry, put one hand inside the bag, and the other hand outside, then feel between your two hands for any lumps. If the down feels clumped put it back in the dryer until you don’t feel any little lumps or balls. Then, either hang the bag to store it or keep it in a Storage Sack (as opposed to a Stuff Sack). Marmot Storage Sacks sell for about $14, and you can order them direct from us, if you can not find one locally - call 707-544-4590 and ask for customer service.”

[oldfivetango]

Thanks Rock.
OFT

[Roland]

While we are on the subject of down bags,I would like to know how everyone stores their bag when it is not being used at home.
~

You can store down bags in a large, breatheable storage sac, like this one (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?AFC-googlebase&productId=7577&engine=googlebase&keyword=41136).

I've also stored down bags in large Rubbermaid storage bins. These do not breathe, so be careful your bag is completely dry and don't snap the lid down tightly.

These storage solutions take less space than leaving the bag spread out.

[pyroman53]

and let it lay out for several hours before I got into the bag.

Mayhaps the bag picked up moisture from the air (isn't it usually damp up there??). It could have taken a few hours for your body heat to dry out the bag after you got into it, and then you warmed up. On very cold and damp evenings, I'll delay laying out my bag until just before bedtime...thus preventing this problem.

[rafe]

While we are on the subject of down bags,I would like to know how everyone stores their bag when it is not being used at home.

A pillowcase. Easy.

[Jim Adams]

I've had synthetic bags take a while to loft but never down. Sounds to me that the above theories by siamyoji and Roland are very sound. The periphreal blood vessels in the extremities would stay constricted until the core temp stabilized enough for the systems to be satisfied with the warmth of the core and then begin to dialate the extremity vessels to warm the arms and legs. If you hadn't "fired" the furnace with some food to produce heat, this whole process could take a while until you were comfortably warm.
I seriously doubt that you have a "bad" bag. Give it another try. Eat some protien and a little chocolate 30 minutes before bed and take a short walk...my bet is that you will sleep warm immediately.

geek

[warraghiyagey]

While we are on the subject of down bags,I would like to know
how everyone stores their bag when it is not being used at home.
Oldfivetango

Under a heap of clothes between the bed and the wall.:rolleyes:

[latte]

I have had similar probems with sleeping bags on a cold wet night. It usually happens when I go to bed cold or exhausted.

As to the other question, we hang our sleeping bags from hooks placed in the basement ceiling.

[warraghiyagey]

As to the other question, we hang our sleeping bags from hooks placed in the basement ceiling.

Sounds like a good deal for cold vampires.:p

[Rain Man]

At night I got into the bag and was cold for hours. I pulled the cords tight around my face, didn't roll around and I was still cold. I would however wake up in the middle of the night toasty warm.

Don't forget that your body could be stressed from the hiking, which can affect not only the muscles and organs but also the chemical balance.

Sometimes after a long, hard day of hiking, I get chilled and shiver at the end of the day once I stop, even in warm weather. It's not the weather or the sleeping bag, it's my body. Sometimes, it's not shivering, but some other reaction, like being light-headed.

Anyway, it may not be your equipment, it may just be your body.

Rain:sunMan

.

[Alligator]

Following Saimyoji and Roland, when did you eat in camp? If you were wet coming in, you may have used a lot of your reserves, then needed time to process your food.

Retest the bag at home, then perhaps under other conditions to try to isolate the problem.

[socalhiker]

I returned a sub-kilo because it didn't keep me warm and purchased another brand of down bag rated to 15 degrees that has functioned with a good degree of satisfaction. I have seen a few posts, not a lot, of other unsatisfied hikers complaining about the insufficient warmth of the Kilo line of bags.

[earthbound]

I ate dinner before I got into bed and I followed the same camp routine as I normally do. I've been on many trips in more extreme conditions and have never had this problem before- but I've never used a down bag before either. I wasn't sick or hungry or thirsty or wet or anything else. I don't know if I will have the opportunity to try out the bag again before I go to the AT in March- although if the weather isn't horrible I might try and just backyard camp sometime when the temps will get down to around 15 degrees just to see what happens. But as for now, I would be hesitant to take a bag that doesn't keep me warm to 40!

[Wanderingson]

Bag Storage? Simple fix. Lay down an clean old sheet. Lay our bag on top. Loosely wrap the sheet around the bag. Slip the cocoon under your bed for safe storage. Hey, it's a waste of space anyway.

Secrets of warmth in winter months?

1. Allow adequate time for your bag to "loft", but no too long to where it will absorb abbient moisture--down sucks when damp.
2. Lay your sleeping pad down, then lay your noisy assed solar blanket on top--this will reduce radiant heat lose during the night.
3. Heat a quick meal to fuel your furnace throughout the night.
4. Pour excess hot water into a nalgene or other water tight bottle. Wrap the botle in a sock and put in your bag with you.
5. Bring a wide mouth gatorade bottle in the bag with you to relieve yourself during the night. Note to self--relief is done in the bottle without the sock.
6. Ensure your clothes are dry before entering your bag. Damp clothes will create a damp bag--damp down sucks.
7. Warm your body up by short brisk movement to get you blood circulating. Don't over do it and work up a sweat.
8. You bag is designed to trap your body heat. If you are chilled and your furnace isn't fired up, your bag will take some time to warm up.
9. Wear a hat to retain body heat. Stuffing your heat inside your bag will result in moisture from your breath being trapped in your bag. Damp down sucks and reduces insulation.

I would say your chilled experience was a combination of issues. When the bag warmed up to you, you became comfortable. Learn to warm up to your bag before you crawl inside.

Enjoy

[SGT Rock]

Bag Storage? Simple fix. Lay down an clean old sheet. Lay our bag on top. Loosely wrap the sheet around the bag. Slip the cocoon under your bed for safe storage. Hey, it's a waste of space anyway.

Secrets of warmth in winter months?

1. Allow adequate time for your bag to "loft", but no too long to where it will absorb abbient moisture--down sucks when damp.
2. Lay your sleeping pad down, then lay your noisy assed solar blanket on top--this will reduce radiant heat lose during the night.
3. Heat a quick meal to fuel your furnace throughout the night.
4. Pour excess hot water into a nalgene or other water tight bottle. Wrap the botle in a sock and put in your bag with you.
5. Bring a wide mouth gatorade bottle in the bag with you to relieve yourself during the night. Note to self--relief is done in the bottle without the sock.
6. Ensure your clothes are dry before entering your bag. Damp clothes will create a damp bag--damp down sucks.
7. Warm your body up by short brisk movement to get you blood circulating. Don't over do it and work up a sweat.
8. You bag is designed to trap your body heat. If you are chilled and your furnace isn't fired up, your bag will take some time to warm up.
9. Wear a hat to retain body heat. Stuffing your heat inside your bag will result in moisture from your breath being trapped in your bag. Damp down sucks and reduces insulation.

I would say your chilled experience was a combination of issues. When the bag warmed up to you, you became comfortable. Learn to warm up to your bag before you crawl inside.

Enjoy
Good points. Marta and I were talking about this over the weekend. Other points:

10. Don't overheat during the day in cold weather. The tendency is to start from camp warm and comfy and then take off clothing as you get hot and sweat. As silly as it might sound, the better way is to strip off the long clothing before you leave. If you are cold before you move you will probably be OK.

11. Don't let yourself get chilled. Once you are chilled it is harder to get warm again. When you stop, have something warm ready to put on as you start to cool off. Try to stay ahead of the chills.

12. Sleep with your clothing. One thing I've found is if I take off clothing to go to be, keep the clothing in the bag with you so it is warm when you put it on in the morning. If you have to get out and put on cold clothing from inside of a pack your body has to spend energy to warm it up to body temp which makes you cold first.

[saimyoji]

12. Sleep with your clothing. One thing I've found is if I take off clothing to go to be, keep the clothing in the bag with you so it is warm when you put it on in the morning. If you have to get out and put on cold clothing from inside of a pack your body has to spend energy to warm it up to body temp which makes you cold first.


One thing I do is keep all my clothing in a "pillow sack" that is inside my bag with me. Sometimes its under my head, sometimes I just cuddle it...:p

[Marta]

And if you really, really want to be warm, get a Nunatak Raku. ;-))))

[JAK]

I was wearing a baselayer top and bottom, fleece pants, clean dry socks, and a fleece hat- all of which I normally wear when hiking/ camping. My bag was totally dry and even though my hike was through the wettest conditions I have ever been in, I change into a dry set of clothes at camp. So, everything was dry. I've been in a lot of sleeping bags and have never had the problem of warming up quickly in a bag before unless the temps were below the rating on the bag. So, this is pretty unusual for a down bag?A few theories on your experience.

1. You might have been chilled and exausted when you went to bed. As you slept your body might have had time to convert more body fat into energy, and to digest whatever you had for supper and convert that into energy also.

2. When you went to bed the temperature might have been falling, with relative humidity at 100%, which can be rather chilling even if you don't get alot of noticably visible condensation. By the time you woke up your body heat might have had time to heat up your clothes and sleeping bag and drive much of this condensation out. It would still have been cold, and 100% humidity, but your insulation might have been warmer and dryer by then.

3. In addition, in the time you were asleep you might have had time to heat up your sleeping pad and backpack also, as well as some of the ground underneath that also, and perhaps dry it out some, though I don't that.

4. Maybe the temperature rose during the night, as with a warm front, or winds from the South.

I suspect it had mostly to do with metabolism, and secondly the time it took to heat up your sleeping bag and sleeping pad and even some of the ground underneath since you weren't using a closed cell foam pad. You do create a bit of a micro-climate around you at night, given enough time, especially if there is not too much wind or precipitation and the ground is dry.

I don't think it has to do with down bags. I have experienced similar things with synthetic bags. There might be something to a down bag lofting up more during the night though.

[sweetpeastu]

hmmm I've had similar experiences with my down bag...although normally after getting comy and falling asleep i'll wake up slighly chilled in the middle of the night and have to pull off clothes cause i was sweating...then i get all nice and toasty again.

I stay a little cold for a little bit when I first crawl into my down bag...I think it really does have something to do with how cold you are when you crawl into the bag. I think the jumping jack thing is a good idea.

But I wouldn't sleep in more than baselayers if i were you....you said you had baselayers on top and bottom and a pair of fleece pants? Wearing too much clothing to bed, if if eventually makes you sweat, will make you colder.

[saimyoji]

yep, I sleep in long johns and nothing else. Well, socks and a knit cap.

[Lyle]

I vote that Pyroman53's explaination played a part. Ambient humidity can dampen a bag, it becomes a fine line between allowing the bag to loft and taking on moisture. My .02 worth.