View Full Version : Minors hiking alone - legal aspects
I know hikers are required to sign a a release form, but can someone under the age of 18 use the ferry service, or would I need to get parental permission before hand because I am under 18.
Thanks,
Kirby
Jack Tarlin
10-21-2007, 19:01
Kirby:
I'd E-Mail Steve Longley the Ferryman. He's a member here so you could easily send him a Private message. His Whiteblaze User Name is "Ferryman".
Uncle Silly
10-21-2007, 19:24
I doubt there's any restrictions; the ferry service is there to keep everyone safe, not just the 18-and-over crowd. Do contact Steve to see what his policy (if any) has been in the past, but the next ferry service may not have the same policy.
shelterbuilder
10-21-2007, 19:38
That's a good question, Kirby. A release form is, technically, a legal document, and most of the time, you have to be over the age of 18 to execute a legal document. But there's plenty of time left to work past this, if it's a problem. Jack's right - contact Steve.
Lone Wolf
10-21-2007, 19:48
I know hikers are required to sign a a release form, but can someone under the age of 18 use the ferry service, or would I need to get parental permission before hand because I am under 18.
Thanks,
Kirby
give fording a shot
warraghiyagey
10-21-2007, 19:58
give fording a shot
Tsk tsk tsk. It's not safe for everyone. Very questionable advice, especially if you don't have 30+ years of hiking under your belt. There are plenty of challenging fords as it is, not necessary to recoomend that where there has been at least one fording fatality.
Lone Wolf
10-21-2007, 20:06
Tsk tsk tsk. It's not safe for everyone. Very questionable advice, especially if you don't have 30+ years of hiking under your belt. There are plenty of challenging fords as it is, not necessary to recoomend that where there has been at least one fording fatality.
very questionable sending a 16 year old boy out for 5 months with people mommy and daddy don't know. if the boy chose the CDT he would be doing all kinds of questionable stuff. i'm not ADVISING the boy to ford. i'm SUUGGESTING it as an option. if the boy chooses to ford he should do it before 7 AM. The woman that drowned over 20 years ago attempted to ford late in the day when it would have been foolish to attempt it.
and if the kennebec is such a killer, the ATC, USFS, and the state of MAINE should build a bridge. the foot bridge over the James River in Va. did not need to be built. for years we walked over an existing bridge.
Not taking a position this post on fording the Kennebec, except to say it isn't for everyone.
I've read several posts by Kirby on WB on a number of topics, and he comes across, at least on the internet, as wise beyond his years. A lot more maturity than some of us three times his age show. I wouldn't worry too much about this particular 16-year-old doing the AT.
warraghiyagey
10-21-2007, 20:29
Sorry Wolf. Didn't know this would lead to others attacking you and I sure didn't mean to regardless of my thoughts on the subject which are contrary to yours. That would never lead to me insulting you and I'm sorry that others are headed in that direction. I'd ford the Kennebec if you were there to judge the flow, I just wouldn't openly suggest it to everyone.
Peace
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-21-2007, 20:32
Excellent question, Kirby. I hope Ferryman will answer in the thread as you aren't the only person under 18 considering a thru-hike.
As for speculation about Kirby's abilities based on his age, determining that is the responsibility of his parents - the people who know him best and love him more than anyone here. If they feel he is ready, the rest of you need to respect that.
Lone Wolf
10-21-2007, 20:34
Sorry Wolf. Didn't know this would lead to others attacking you and I sure didn't mean to regardless of my thoughts on the subject which are contrary to yours. That would never lead to me insulting you and I'm sorry that others are headed in that direction. I'd ford the Kennebec if you were there to judge the flow, I just wouldn't openly suggest it to everyone.
Peace
you're fine. i bring attacks on myself. i've been getting PMs all week from folks who i've pissed off. i really don't mean to. i'm not suggesting kirby fords, just to look at it as an option. when and if he gets there, he'll do what he wants to do. this ain't an age thing.
Is this where the party is tonight?:rolleyes::p
Appalachian Tater
10-21-2007, 20:55
it's made you a lonely troll. :rolleyes:
You know, L. Wolf, you seemed like a decent fellow in person.
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 20:58
Break it up, it ain't about you too, it is about the minor signing a legal release to cross the ferry.
Here is an idea. Get the ferrymen to mail you a copy and get the parent's signature on it ahead of time and then mail it back so he has it on file for when you do show up.
Alligator
10-21-2007, 20:59
Break it up, it ain't about you too, it is about the minor signing a legal release to cross the ferry.
Here is an idea. Get the ferrymen to mail you a copy and get the parent's signature on it ahead of time and then mail it back so he has it on file for when you do show up.Ask him [Ferryman] if it needs to be notarized too.
Lone Wolf
10-21-2007, 20:59
You know, L. Wolf, you seemed like a decent fellow in person.
when did we meet?
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 21:02
Ask him [Ferryman] if it needs to be notarized too.
At least witnessed I would assume.
I don't think there's an age restriction. I took the canoe ride with my nephew from Hawaii, who was about 16 at the time. BTW, I don't recall any release forms.... :-?
Lone Wolf
10-21-2007, 21:02
I know hikers are required to sign a a release form, but can someone under the age of 18 use the ferry service, or would I need to get parental permission before hand because I am under 18.
Thanks,
Kirby
call the ATC. ask for Laurie
warraghiyagey
10-21-2007, 21:29
Is this where the party is tonight?:rolleyes::p
Apparently, but you have to bring your editing pencil according to what I'm not reading.:p
Apparently, but you have to bring your editing pencil according to what I'm not reading.:p
That's off topic Wargy:D
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 21:35
I wasn't stopping the off topic - just tired of the same damn argument on a new thread. An argument which had nothing to do with the topic.
Originally Posted by warraghiyagey
Apparently, but you have to bring your editing pencil according to what I'm not reading.:p
That's off topic Wargy:DIt was a private joke Sarge
SGT Rock
10-21-2007, 21:38
Ohhhhh, nevermind.
warraghiyagey
10-21-2007, 21:43
It was a private joke Sarge
Woodsy, glad at least you and I got it. Rock no offense, just bein funny, in fact I didn't know who was moderating but enjoy the effort you put in for sure, as well as all the others. But, back to the topic at hand. . . anyone?:)
saimyoji
10-21-2007, 22:06
I love these threads where half the posts are blank. :D
Jim Adams
10-21-2007, 23:13
I would have Steve FAX you a copy, have your parents sign it and notorize it and then FAX it back to Steve so that nothing is last minute. Also make a copy to keep home and carry the original with you to give to Steve when you arrive there. This is all just to protect the ferry service and Steve himself. The release has nothing to do with crossing safely, it is all about insurance companies and litigation. Steve's insurance company would never give the advice to ford but they probably wish that all hikers did...that would totally remove Steve from liability.
geek
Kirby,
As a parent who has left young chidren in the care of others, I have this suggestion for you regarding legal forms. (If you have heard this stuff before, just stop reading...)
Before you leave for the trail, have your parents write a letter giving authorization to physicians, in any state, treating you for sickness or injury on the trail. Also, it needs to be noterized. This letter may get you faster health care in the case of an emergency.
Also, make sure you bring your social security card. If you do not have a state licence or driving permit, consider getting a state ID card (cheap - usually $20) or a US passport (more expensive - $80?). If you don't want to get these, bring your SS card and certified (stamped with state seal) birth certificate with you. These forms of ID will always be helpful.
You may also need a simiar note (to the medical one above) in order to check into hotels / motels. Hostels shouldn't be an issue. But, If you try and get into a decent motel at some point, you will probably need something saying that your parents will take responsibility for your actions.
Same idea goes for the ferryman release.
warraghiyagey
10-22-2007, 00:47
Kirby,
As a parent who has left young chidren in the care of others, I have this suggestion for you regarding legal forms. (If you have heard this stuff before, just stop reading...)
Before you leave for the trail, have your parents write a letter giving authorization to physicians, in any state, treating you for sickness or injury on the trail. Also, it needs to be noterized. This letter may get you faster health care in the case of an emergency.
Also, make sure you bring your social security card. If you do not have a state licence or driving permit, consider getting a state ID card (cheap - usually $20) or a US passport (more expensive - $80?). If you don't want to get these, bring your SS card and certified (stamped with state seal) birth certificate with you. These forms of ID will always be helpful.
You may also need a simiar note (to the medical one above) in order to check into hotels / motels. Hostels shouldn't be an issue. But, If you try and get into a decent motel at some point, you will probably need something saying that your parents will take responsibility for your actions.
Same idea goes for the ferryman release.
Kirby, as always your folks will have the best advice for you. With that said, under no circumstances should you bring your social security card with you.
As well do not bring an original or stamped copy of your birth certificate.
As far as ID goes, one copy of a picture ID (I wouldn't recommend Passport either), and an easily accessible copy of emergency contact info.
When you get to the Kennebec, you'll get by. The Ferryman is not the Gestapo.
Don't sweat it til you get out there where it's sweaty. Then enjoy.
Peace
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 01:04
Kirby, as always your folks will have the best advice for you. With that said, under no circumstances should you bring your social security card with you.
As well do not bring an original or stamped copy of your birth certificate.
As far as ID goes, one copy of a picture ID (I wouldn't recommend Passport either), and an easily accessible copy of emergency contact info.
When you get to the Kennebec, you'll get by. The Ferryman is not the Gestapo.
Don't sweat it til you get out there where it's sweaty. Then enjoy.
Peace
Yep, all you need is a drivers license or state ID card, an ATM card, a credit card if possible, a health insurance card if you have coverage, and a list of phone numbers with a calling card number. It is NOT recommended that you carry your birth certificate or social security card or even your social security number written down because of the problems with identity fraud.
Also, the age of consent for health care treatment varies from state to state with some being as high as eighteen but care is rendered in an emergency without parental consent regardless.
warraghiyagey
10-22-2007, 01:13
Yep, all you need is a drivers license or state ID card, an ATM card, a credit card if possible, a health insurance card if you have coverage, and a list of phone numbers with a calling card number. It is NOT recommended that you carry your birth certificate or social security card or even your social security number written down because of the problems with identity fraud.
Thanks Tater, you said it about as clearly as it can be said. Kirby, Taters advice includes everything you need regarding this topic.:)
I sent the ferryman the question I asked here, once I get a response, I will post it for future reference, thanks for the advice everyone,
Kirby
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-22-2007, 07:19
Kirby, the notarized letter Latte recommends might be a good idea. A state ID card or driver's license or a passport is also a good idea.
While your Social Security card and certified birth certificate are sometimes useful when traveling international, I join others in saying that these items are not needed on the trail as you do not cross into another country. All state governments in the US accept other state's ID card and driver's license as proof of identity.
whats all this garbage about signing forms and sending fax's. this is a guy with a canoe that shuttles you across a moderate river. ill be surprised if he has a phone. just go on your journey and dont let people tell you what you can and cant do. shame on everyone for encouraging the boy to conform to the signing of "legal" documents and such the at is about freedom anyone who wants to go and walk it on thier own accord can do so, and no one can tell him/her otherwise.
Lone Wolf
10-22-2007, 07:24
whats all this garbage about signing forms and sending fax's. this is a guy with a canoe that shuttles you across a moderate river. ill be surprised if he has a phone. just go on your journey and dont let people tell you what you can and cant do. shame on everyone for encouraging the boy to conform to the signing of "legal" documents and such the at is about freedom anyone who wants to go and walk it on thier own accord can do so, and no one can tell him/her otherwise.
i agree. much ado about nothing
Jim Adams
10-22-2007, 07:56
whats all this garbage about signing forms and sending fax's. this is a guy with a canoe that shuttles you across a moderate river. ill be surprised if he has a phone. just go on your journey and dont let people tell you what you can and cant do. shame on everyone for encouraging the boy to conform to the signing of "legal" documents and such the at is about freedom anyone who wants to go and walk it on thier own accord can do so, and no one can tell him/her otherwise.
You know, for only having 3 posts, you already have this "stupid reply" thing down.:rolleyes:
This has nothing to do with freedoms...you have already lost those in these situations due to insurance companies. Whether you inderstand it or not, insurance companies rule our world.
Steve is a GREAT guy and I doubt that he would ever refuse a canoe crossing to anyone but to transport without a signed reliability release is certainly putting his own business at risk. The insurance companies go as far as rating the difficulty of the water being navigated.:-?
geek
Is this consent/waiver form something new? I have no memory of this form.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-22-2007, 08:20
While I agree a signed, notarized letter is overkill for the purpose of the ferry ride, I don't agree it is overkill when a minor hiking alone needs to see a doctor, clinic or hospital ER to check a nasty looking blister or cut or to treat a bad cold, trail trots, infected eye, sprain ect. Obviously, no medical facility is going to do something like major surgery without contacting the parents, but many will render routine treatment on the weight of such a letter.
A minor would likely need such a letter to be able to check into a motel. It would also likely keep him from being detained by LEOs as a possible runaway child.
Lone Wolf
10-22-2007, 08:21
there's always been a waiver
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 08:28
Well if there is a waiver and he blew it off until he showed up then found out he couldn't use the ferry if he wants to because of this one little detail - it would be a bad thing.
On the other hand if he is sitting around sharpening pencils and packing socks and gets the idea to check and be ready ahead of time just in case - he might be wasting time, but he has time to waste doing it and it is his time.
Ounce of prevention sort of thing. Or PPPPPP (Propper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance). It is a pretty interesting point and I think Kirby is a heck of a sharp kid for thinking of it. And you know what makes me think that: the fact that with the WhiteBlaze brain trust all rubbing their brain cells together - no one actually knows the answer to this one.
So, you successfully trudge 2,000 miles to Maine and a guy with a FAX in a canoe is going to say he cannot take you across without a form or if you are underage due to some insurance requirement? :-?
Looking forward to Steve's reply.
Lone Wolf
10-22-2007, 08:30
he ain't gonna be the first minor to take the canoe, if he gets there, he won't need to sign ahead of time
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 08:33
Maybe Kirby should look into getting emancipated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-22-2007, 08:43
Emancipation crossed my mind as well,.... Kirby would then have to carry a certified copy of the court order showing a court had declared him emancipated.
BTW, not all states accept other states' juvenile court orders so this should be done in an 'adult' court if Kirby and his parents elect to go this route.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 08:45
All he needs is an enlistment contract.
JUST KIDDING!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-22-2007, 08:47
::: Dino eyes SgtRock's toes and gets tail ready to whack eastward :D :::
Jim Adams
10-22-2007, 09:14
So, you successfully trudge 2,000 miles to Maine and a guy with a FAX in a canoe is going to say he cannot take you across without a form or if you are underage due to some insurance requirement? :-?
Looking forward to Steve's reply.
Unfortunately due to liability and litigation in this country...that could feasibly happen.
I don't think that Steve would ever refuse a canoe crossing to anyone but he is risking the future of his business without the release.
If your car insurance company notified you that you could not ride anyone in your car without a signed release or they would drop your coverage in an accident without that signed release and you would be liable for all responsibility...how many people would you give a ride to?:-?
Whether you want to believe it or not, America has lost more of their personal freedoms because of insurance companies than any amount of war or terrorism.:-?
geek
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 10:54
It is a pretty interesting point and I think Kirby is a heck of a sharp kid for thinking of it. And you know what makes me think that: the fact that with the WhiteBlaze brain trust all rubbing their brain cells together - no one actually knows the answer to this one.
Therein lies the humor. Kirby is more mature and thoughtful than many thru-hikers and has some good hiking experience as well. Plenty of thru-hikers have zero experience.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 10:56
Therein lies the humor. Kirby is more mature and thoughtful than many thru-hikers and has some good hiking experience as well. Plenty of thru-hikers have zero experience.
Good point. I spent the night at a shelter one night with some southbounders that were about 1600 miles into their thru-hike. They didn't know how to start a campfire.
Good point. I spent the night at a shelter one night with some southbounders that were about 1600 miles into their thru-hike. They didn't know how to start a campfire.
Yup, I was at a shelter in the Smokies and a couple asked me where the garbage can was...:rolleyes:
Kirby, definately carry a picture I.D. and your health insurance card. A notoraized letter from your parents in case of an emergency. That's about all you'll need as far as legal documents go. Steve will let you know the rest.
Unfortunately due to liability and litigation in this country...that could feasibly happen.
I don't think that Steve would ever refuse a canoe crossing to anyone but he is risking the future of his business without the release.
If your car insurance company notified you that you could not ride anyone in your car without a signed release or they would drop your coverage in an accident without that signed release and you would be liable for all responsibility...how many people would you give a ride to?:-?
Whether you want to believe it or not, America has lost more of their personal freedoms because of insurance companies than any amount of war or terrorism.:-?
geek
Wonderful. When will the ATC start making hikers sign a release to step foot on the trail? There are a number of places where you can easily get hurt or, as some have proven, get lost. Why don't they just post a warning sign similar to the ones you see in the White Mountains and other areas where conditions may be hazardous? "Warning, The Ferryman is working hard to keep you safe, please listen to and follow all his instructions. And remember, just because you listen to and follow all his instructions, this does not guarantee your safety - *S**T* happens! Take the Ferry at your own risk."
Good point. I spent the night at a shelter one night with some southbounders that were about 1600 miles into their thru-hike. They didn't know how to start a campfire.
Surprising? Maybe not. Emphasis on LNT means there are fewer fire rings. Many shelters no longer have fire rings. Emphasis on big miles (for thru-hikers) means more time hiking, less time at camp. Thirty years ago, "camping" invariably involved a campfire. But that hasn't been true for several years now.
Wonderful. When will the ATC start making hikers sign a release to step foot on the trail? There are a number of places where you can easily get hurt or, as some have proven, get lost. Why don't they just post a warning sign similar to the ones you see in the White Mountains and other areas where conditions may be hazardous? "Warning, The Ferryman is working hard to keep you safe, please listen to and follow all his instructions. And remember, just because you listen to and follow all his instructions, this does not guarantee your safety - *S**T* happens! Take the Ferry at your own risk."
There are laws in most states that exempt land owners from liability for injuries received while recreating on lands owned by others. Maine has one of the strongest of such laws and a court system most diligent in enforcing the laws. Landowners are generally protected everywhere. But Maine's prohibition against such liability ranks as the strongest as I understand it.
Maine law assumes that trails, bridges, or other things found on the land are inherently dangerous and the public uses such facilities entirely at their own risk.
However, I doubt if a contractor ferrying people across a dangerous river qualifies for exemption from liability.
That's why the ferry contractor carries insurance and why he asks people to sign a liability waiver.
Weary
Surprising? Maybe not. Emphasis on LNT means there are fewer fire rings. Many shelters no longer have fire rings. Emphasis on big miles (for thru-hikers) means more time hiking, less time at camp. Thirty years ago, "camping" invariably involved a campfire. But that hasn't been true for several years now.
Knowing how to start a fire could be a safety issue as winter conditions approach.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 13:49
Surprising? Maybe not. Emphasis on LNT means there are fewer fire rings. Many shelters no longer have fire rings. Emphasis on big miles (for thru-hikers) means more time hiking, less time at camp. Thirty years ago, "camping" invariably involved a campfire. But that hasn't been true for several years now.
Maybe... But staying at shelters with fire rings in front of them is not exactly LNT. There is plenty of T already there. What I have noticed on the trail and here is a tendency for some thru-hikers to not know how to keep down dry, not think maps are important, know more about shelter rules than setting up a tent in the rain, and other little items of information that you would assume someone that spends a lot of time in the back country should know. It sort of leads me to realize anyone can spend a lot of time on the AT and not actually have to learn much about living in the wilderness.
Knowing how to start a fire could be a safety issue as winter conditions approach.
Exactly.
Maine law assumes that trails, bridges, or other things found on the land are inherently dangerous and the public uses such facilities entirely at their own risk.
However, I doubt if a contractor ferrying people across a dangerous river qualifies for exemption from liability.
That's why the ferry contractor carries insurance and why he asks people to sign a liability waiver.
Weary
I am not really debating the law or the fact that the presence of a person or business justifies a different law. Although, highway construction issues seem to come with very limited liabilty. :-?
Anyway, I am just tired of being followed by the law when I venture into the woods - not that the law is following me or anything like that. ;)
With all the rules and regs it appears that the AT is becoming less of a wilderness experience than a lesson in conserving every square inch of the corridor that is not the footpath itself. "Please practice LNT by not venturing off the trail. Enjoy your wilderness experience." Huh?
"Don't step on the pretty fungi or the whole ecosystem will disappear" attitude is a little over the top, so to speak. This year in NH, I got a big kick out of the signs at a composting outhouse to pee in the woods and then most of the woods was roped off with signs: "this is a forest restoration area, please keep out". At the same campsite, there was a sign to use the bear box to store your food. Great, except the bear box was padlocked. I guess I simply don't understand NH/AMC humor.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:05
Hike the BMT.
Good idea. Now I am beginning to understand your 2008 thru-hike plans.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:08
Ford the Kennebec
Lone Wolf
10-22-2007, 14:09
Ford the Kennebec
poo stirrer
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:09
Don't stir the poo.
Oops, wrong thread.
Don't y'all have composting privies in the South? You have to stir the poo.
Pennsylvania Rose
10-22-2007, 14:21
Not that getting a letter signed by his parents beforehand isn't a good idea, but how would the Ferryman know that kirby is under 18, unless kirby told him? Do you have to show an ID when you sign the waiver?
Footslogger
10-22-2007, 14:27
Do you have to show an ID when you sign the waiver?
=========================================
I've crossed it twice and never been carded ...
'Slogger
....I am just tired of being followed by the law when I venture into the woods - not that the law is following me or anything like that. ;)
Aside from general hunting, fishing and vandalism laws, the only law that follows you on most of the trail is the law that says you are responsible for your own safety. Unless of course you choose to use the services of the ferry person, then you must agree not to sue him if he kills or injures you by mistake.
Weary
It sort of leads me to realize anyone can spend a lot of time on the AT and not actually have to learn much about living in the wilderness.
Again, not so surprising. Though I wonder what you mean by "living in the wilderness." From all I've seen over the last umpteen years, "thru-hiking" would not be possible without food resupply (and other town conveniences) every four or five days. Occasionally you meet a youngster going for longer resupply intervals, but mostly to save $$ and to maximize miles.
The notion of thru-hiking while "living off the land" is and has always been a joke.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:36
=========================================
I've crossed it twice and never been carded ...
'Slogger
That is because you look old.
The first time I took the canoe ferry across the Kennebec, there were bunches of Boy Scouts crossing that day. I don't think Kirby will be the first underage canoe rider traveling without his parents.
How to tell he's underage? I'm guessing one can tell by looking at him. (Kirby, I'm not insulting you, it's just the truth. If you looked at me, you would instantly know I'm not 14 anymore.)
Aside from general hunting, fishing and vandalism laws, the only law that follows you on most of the trail is the law that says you are responsible for your own safety. Unless of course you choose to use the services of the ferry person, then you must agree not to sue him if he kills or injures you by mistake.
Weary
Well, the AMC (along with the Smokies, Baxter State Park and other areas) seems to have many more laws that the rest of the AT. At any rate, I promise not to sue the ferry person if he kills me by mistake. Duh, that is why I have to sign my name, right? And by the way, while I am not a legal expert, signing your name does not necessarily protect the operator, especially if you have a good lawyer.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:41
Again, not so surprising. Though I wonder what you mean by "living in the wilderness." From all I've seen over the last umpteen years, "thru-hiking" would not be possible without food resupply (and other town conveniences) every four or five days. Occasionally you meet a youngster going for longer resupply intervals, but mostly to save $$ and to maximize miles.
The notion of thru-hiking while "living off the land" is and has always been a joke.
Well I don't think living off the land is a good idea if you are trying to make the miles. I've done some of that and foraging/hunting/fishing takes time.
BUT, if you don't need to navigate, you don't need to learn site selection, you don't need to learn how to do certain things (like set up in the rain) that you would have to do on most other back county trails because the AT provides shelters, you don't have to learn how to spot possible water sources, and probably some other things that if you can't do you could be miserable on any other trail BUT the AT.
Again, not so surprising. Though I wonder what you mean by "living in the wilderness." From all I've seen over the last umpteen years, "thru-hiking" would not be possible without food resupply (and other town conveniences) every four or five days. Occasionally you meet a youngster going for longer resupply intervals, but mostly to save $$ and to maximize miles.
The notion of thru-hiking while "living off the land" is and has always been a joke.
Resupplying is a tactical issue. Having some wilderness skills to get out of an emergency situation in one piece is a strategic issue.
TJ aka Teej
10-22-2007, 14:52
Kirby, you can sign the waiver, just as hundreds of other teens have.
Footslogger
10-22-2007, 14:54
That is because you look old.
=====================================
Man ...talk about calling a spade a spade !!
'Slogger
Well, the AMC (along with the Smokies, Baxter State Park and other areas) seems to have many more laws that the rest of the AT. At any rate, I promise not to sue the ferry person if he kills me by mistake. Duh, that is why I have to sign my name, right? And by the way, while I am not a legal expert, signing your name does not necessarily protect the operator, especially if you have a good lawyer.
Sadly Baxter -- and Katahdin -- are the most regulated park and mountain that I know. Gov. Baxter was a wise and great man for creating a 200,000 "forever wild" preserve. Unfortunately, he made a mistake in naming three political office holders to manage it after he was gone. We could go generations before finding a trustee that knows anything about managing a wilderness.
If I was the park manager I would lock all the gates and allow in only those who walked to the mountain from Abol Bridge. That way they could fire all but one ranger/shelter maintenance person and use Baxter's multimillion dollar legacy money to enlarge his park.
Weary
If one isn't seriously ill or injured, ISTM that first thing one could do if one were in trouble on the AT is simply... to head for town at the nearest road crossing. Except for a handful of places, civilization is less than a dozen miles away. Most of the time you can hear it, see it, or smell it.
I guess what I'm saying is... the AT isn't much of a wilderness these days. It's not even a "pretend" wilderness. I'm not really excusing the lack of "back country" skills, but I'm not at all surprised at their disappearance.
Check out the gear-list threads on WB and look what happens whenever anyone suggests taking a compass along on a thru hike... :rolleyes:
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 14:56
=====================================
Man ...talk about calling a spade a spade !!
'Slogger
I don't have a santa clause beard :p
I guess what I'm saying is... the AT isn't much of a wilderness these days. It's not even a "pretend" wilderness. I'm not really excusing the lack of "back country" skills, but I'm not at all surprised at their disappearance.
Agreed, but I think people ought to bring more than an attitude and leave with more than a patch.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 15:01
Check out the gear-list threads on WB and look what happens whenever anyone suggests taking a compass along on a thru hike... :rolleyes:
Or the folks that have thru-hiked and think maps are a wast of time, money, weight, and effort.
Or the people that know more about shelter space rules and strategies to get a spot than they do about converting for declination.
Footslogger
10-22-2007, 15:38
I don't have a santa clause beard :p
====================================
Well ...neither did I when I left Springer.
Kinda grew on me after a while ...
'Slogger
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-22-2007, 15:46
......Except for a handful of places, civilization is less than a dozen miles away. Most of the time you can hear it, see it, or smell it...... .. the AT isn't much of a wilderness these days. It's not even a "pretend" wilderness. I'm not really excusing the lack of "back country" skills, but I'm not at all surprised at their disappearance.
BUT, if you don't need to navigate, you don't need to learn site selection, you don't need to learn how to do certain things (like set up in the rain) that you would have to do on most other back county trails because the AT provides shelters, you don't have to learn how to spot possible water sources, and probably some other things that if you can't do you could be miserable on any other trail BUT the AT.Rock & Terrapin have hit on the crux of why I am as old as I am and haven't tackled the AT though I've hiked a whole lotta miles in my time. In my younger years, the AT just wasn't wild enough to attract me. Now that I'm older, slower and more subject to illness and injury, I'll gladly put up with civilization being a dozen or less miles away.
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 15:48
I doubt the idea for a liability waiver came to Steve the Ferryman in a vision. It is more likely that the insurance company requires it.
I doubt the idea for a liability waiver came to Steve the Ferryman in a vision. It is more likely that the insurance company requires it.
I don't think anyone is blaming Steve, especially when there are all those insurance companies to blame. :D
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 16:11
Rock & Terrapin have hit on the crux of why I am as old as I am and haven't tackled the AT though I've hiked a whole lotta miles in my time. In my younger years, the AT just wasn't wild enough to attract me. Now that I'm older, slower and more subject to illness and injury, I'll gladly put up with civilization being a dozen or less miles away.
Yes, but there are some that equate their thru-hike with the sturdiness of Viking ancestors.
Sheesh! Old ladies, blind men, legless people, and children have done it.
(No offense meant to old ladies, blind people, minors, or unidexters implied)
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 16:16
Well, you know the A.T. will not be won by weaklings, subtle, suave and mild, but by men with the hearts of Vikings, and the simple faith of a child.
Yes, but there are some that equate their thru-hike with the sturdiness of Viking ancestors.
Well, a thru hike does sort of suggest that you've learned how to protect and ration your toilet paper. ;)
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 16:20
I never thought it was something to be won. I must have missed the scoreboard at the trail heads.
Some people have overinflated opinons of themselves I reckon.
But it just proves something about how 100 people can do something, and there is always that 10%-15% that despite being there for the whole thing, still won't get it.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 16:21
Well, a thru hike does sort of suggest that you've learned how to protect and ration your toilet paper. ;)
Real Vikings wiped their buttox with rotting fish.
Lone Wolf
10-22-2007, 16:22
Real Vikings wiped their buttox with rotting fish.
then ate the fish
then ate the fish
The Vikings of Greenland didn't eat fish. They ate whales and seals, but not fish. I'm not joking. (read Jared Diamond's book, "Collapse.")
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 16:29
A baby seal walks into a club...
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 16:30
They ate lambs, too. The first part of that book is very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsntHcWiy4&mode=related&search=
I thought the only think in common betwen thru-hikers and vikings was their obsession with growing beards. A vikings idea of living off the land was plundering the nearest village. Oh wait... now I see the relationship. Those poor all you can eat buffets.
Kirby, Just use your fake ID. Uh, you do have a fake ID don't you? :)
BTW, I think we just hit a new thread hijack record
Real Vikings wiped their buttox with rotting fish.
then ate the fish
Rock, it's not just the nature of the AT or the existence of shelters; it's the emphasis on thru-hiking and "making miles" that diminishes the experience somewhat.
Simple example. A small group of casual "weekend" hikers head for the AT for a long weekend. They may be doing a lot of things wrong and "inefficiently" but they're generally expecting to be more or less self-sufficient in the woods during that brief period.
Contrast this with the experienced, "savvy" thru-hiker or speed hiker who makes clever arrangements for slack-packing, or is "smart enough" to stop at the deli that's 0.3 miles off the trail for a beer and a hot lunch.
The non-thru-hiker is more willing to play the game and "pretend" he's in the wilderness. The thru-hiker "knows better."
Jim Adams
10-22-2007, 16:52
Well, a thru hike does sort of suggest that you've learned how to protect and ration your toilet paper. ;)
1. the AT is NOT wilderness.
2. I can figure declanation but have never carried the maps on the AT.
3. It is definitely the insurance companies that require the release.
4. The release can be next to useless if the injured party has a good lawyer.
5. Most recreational laws pertaining to injuries on private or public land does make the liability issue moot UNLESS some one is being paid for services or use ie: Steve is paid for the services therefore liability is an issue.
6. Hell with starting fire, WHY IS IT THAT ALOT OF THRU HIKERS CAN KEEP THEIR TOILET PAPER DRY BUT NOT THEIR DOWN?:eek:
just some thoughts!
geek
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 16:54
Maybe. I think it is a symptom of just how the trail has evolved recently (say in the last 20 years). If you listen to the old timers of thru-hiking it was more normal for folks to spend longer between re-supply stops and still make it in the same number of days overall. And the fact is you can still do multiple 15 - 20 mile days and still spend more time in the woods yet less time in the shelters - there just doesn't seem to be the need for most folks to need to be out there.
I'm not saying it is all bad. I'll hike how I want to hike based on what I feel like and what is available. BUT my point is still this: it is possible to be a verified thru-hiker and still not know a hell of a lot about living in the wilderness.
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 17:05
6. Hell with starting fire, WHY IS IT THAT ALOT OF THRU HIKERS CAN KEEP THEIR TOILET PAPER DRY BUT NOT THEIR DOWN?:eek:
just some thoughts!
geek
Or even a synthetic bag dry.
Jim Adams
10-22-2007, 17:09
SGT Rock,
Very true! When I hiked in 1990 almost everyone stayed in shelters even though there were probably less than 10 privys on the entire trail. People spent less time in town and further days between restocks simply because there were far less services catering to the thruhiker.
I had more zeros in 1990 than in 2002 but spent far less time in town in 1990. When I was out hiking, the "newer" lighter gear in 2002 made it easier to hike further and faster.
I really don't think that you needed to know more about wilderness skills in 1990. There were more fire rings but I don't remember having very many fires in 1990 because you were still too tired to gather wood most nights.
If you actually tried to survive on the trail for a thru hike, most people with skills wouldn't make it quick enough for the season...survival skills take time to utilize. I'm just guessing but I would say that maybe 3 people in 1990 and maybe 3 people in 2002 were strong enough in wilderness skills to survive a thru under those conditions and I wasn't one of them. I have spent alot of my life in true wilderness and loved every minute it but I was not one of those capable of doing a survival thru...I know just enough under those conditions to slowly die painfully a few weeks later than most! LOL
geek
.... It is definitely the insurance companies that require the release. The release can be next to useless if the injured party has a good lawyer.
Sure the release is worthless if you hire a good lawyer. But a lot of folks who sign a release won't hire a lawyer, good or bad. That's why insurers require it.
Weary
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 17:13
Well don't get me wrong - I am not talking about survival skills at all. I'm just talking about field craft that comes from hiking a lot. Thinks like knowing how to throw a bear bag, how to dig a cathole correctly, how to start a fire with wet wood, junk like that.
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 17:17
If you're carrying food and a way to cook it, shelter, clothing, etc., why do you need survival skills & techniques unless you get lost or injured and separated from your pack and no one else is around?
Most survival books I have read are about how to find or distill water when none is available, how to make shelter in different climates, how to avoid capture, how to start a fire with sticks or your glasses, how to catch small animals and fish and find vegetable food, etc. when you only have parts of your airplane wreck or something to use. You know, using a twig to make a fish-hook. Not to eat seal liver. That sort of thing.
For an A.T. hike, survival skills include hitch-hiking, not melting your Platypus on your stove, and, as mentioned, keeping your toilet paper dry.
dessertrat
10-22-2007, 17:39
Hmm. How to start a fire with wet wood can be a survival skill, as can be(potentially) throwing a bear bag.
then ate the fish
Bunch of sick, twisted minds at work here.
shelterbuilder
10-22-2007, 18:14
...WHY IS IT THAT ALOT OF THRU HIKERS CAN KEEP THEIR TOILET PAPER DRY BUT NOT THEIR DOWN?:eek: ....
geek
probably because they don't intend to use their down as toilet paper!:eek: (sorry - I couldn't resist.)
Hmm. How to start a fire with wet wood can be a survival skill, as can be(potentially) throwing a bear bag.
Campcraft skills can be used to prevent sniveling and the urge to run into town every time conditions are less than ideal.
shelterbuilder
10-22-2007, 18:40
Campcraft skills can be used to prevent sniveling and the urge to run into town every time conditions are less than ideal.
And sometimes, that's more than half of the fun (the campcraft skills). Most folks realize that, when they're on the AT, it's anything but wilderness, but at least it's the outdoors, and that's what makes it GREAT. All of the new, lightweight equipment makes it easy to do more miles with a lighter pack, but sometimes I think it was more fun years ago when you had to THINK about what you doing. The campcraft skills were something that most folks knew and used - town was for emergencies, not an attack of the "snivelies".
And sometimes, that's more than half of the fun (the campcraft skills). Most folks realize that, when they're on the AT, it's anything but wilderness, but at least it's the outdoors, and that's what makes it GREAT. All of the new, lightweight equipment makes it easy to do more miles with a lighter pack, but sometimes I think it was more fun years ago when you had to THINK about what you doing. The campcraft skills were something that most folks knew and used - town was for emergencies, not an attack of the "snivelies".
Agreed. I enjoy the hiking, the camping, and the thinking about how to live in the woods for a few days until the plan calls for a visit to town for resupply.
Nightwalker
10-22-2007, 20:28
Anyway, I am just tired of being followed by the law when I venture into the woods - not that the law is following me or anything like that. ;)
Just them Ding-Danged black heliocopters! :)
Nightwalker
10-22-2007, 20:30
Not that getting a letter signed by his parents beforehand isn't a good idea, but how would the Ferryman know that kirby is under 18, unless kirby told him? Do you have to show an ID when you sign the waiver?
Kirby looks even younger than his age, at least in the one pic that I saw.
The campcraft skills were something that most folks knew and used - town was for emergencies, not an attack of the "snivelies".
Yeah, back in the good old days when men were men and sheep were nervous. ;)
Nightwalker
10-22-2007, 20:37
Well, you know the A.T. will not be won by weaklings, subtle, suave and mild, but by men with the hearts of Vikings, and the simple faith of a child.
And fellers what carries lots o' TP!
Jim Adams
10-22-2007, 22:11
Well don't get me wrong - I am not talking about survival skills at all. I'm just talking about field craft that comes from hiking a lot. Thinks like knowing how to throw a bear bag, how to dig a cathole correctly, how to start a fire with wet wood, junk like that.
Yeah, I knew what you meant. Todays survival skills are not neccessarily wilderness related....how to get to the shelter before anyone else...how to hit two different towns in the same week...how to slack pack for a week at atime...etc.
I really don't have room to talk myself though because my greatest survival skill is to be able to smell beer from 3 miles away!:D
geek
The Weasel
10-22-2007, 22:20
Kirby:
You're going to have this, and similar, issues arise all along the trail. Those who say a "release" is a legal document are very correct, and generally speaking, a minor (17 and under) cannot validly make a fully binding contract. And it's not up to "ferryman" to decide what he wants done.
There are several things you should do:
First, I strongly suggest you and your father see an attorney in your area. This should not involve a significant fee, and may be free; most lawyers will give you a free consultation, and not charge much for simple things.
Second, get a "Power of Attorney" drafted and signed by your father, making the leader of your group able to sign documents (like releases) on his behalf. This should be inexpensive; I strongly recommend that you NOT use a form from the Internet without discussing it with a lawyer.
Third, carry multiple copies of this form with you. It will be useful not just for releases but for medical care and other such events.
Don't let people here tell you what you should do; see a lawyer, face to face. If you need help finding one, send me a PM and I will tell you how to find a good one that will not charge you much or even help for free, located near you.
TW
Trailjockey
10-22-2007, 22:52
Yeah, back in the good old days when men were men and sheep were nervous. ;)
Where I come from, the sheep are always nervous;)
SGT Rock
10-22-2007, 23:04
Baaaa means no.
The Weasel
10-22-2007, 23:34
While I agree a signed, notarized letter is overkill for the purpose of the ferry ride, I don't agree it is overkill when a minor hiking alone needs to see a doctor, clinic or hospital ER to check a nasty looking blister or cut or to treat a bad cold, trail trots, infected eye, sprain ect. Obviously, no medical facility is going to do something like major surgery without contacting the parents, but many will render routine treatment on the weight of such a letter.
A minor would likely need such a letter to be able to check into a motel. It would also likely keep him from being detained by LEOs as a possible runaway child.
A notarized letter has no legal effect. All the notarization is doing is certifying that the signature is genuine.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-22-2007, 23:42
A notarized letter has no legal effect. All the notarization is doing is certifying that the signature is genuine.
TW
Letters like that with cool official-looking seals and lots of signatures and stuff fool the clerk when you register at the E.R. where they're going to treat a minor if it's an emergency anyway.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2007, 07:58
Kirby, you can sign the waiver, just as hundreds of other teens have.
correct. you don't need to consult no stinkin' lawyers. you're getting a ride in a canoe across a little river. thousands have done it without incident
Alligator
10-23-2007, 08:17
Kirby:
You're going to have this, and similar, issues arise all along the trail. Those who say a "release" is a legal document are very correct, and generally speaking, a minor (17 and under) cannot validly make a fully binding contract. And it's not up to "ferryman" to decide what he wants done.
There are several things you should do:
First, I strongly suggest you and your father see an attorney in your area. This should not involve a significant fee, and may be free; most lawyers will give you a free consultation, and not charge much for simple things.
Second, get a "Power of Attorney" drafted and signed by your father, making the leader of your group able to sign documents (like releases) on his behalf. This should be inexpensive; I strongly recommend that you NOT use a form from the Internet without discussing it with a lawyer.
Third, carry multiple copies of this form with you. It will be useful not just for releases but for medical care and other such events.
Don't let people here tell you what you should do; see a lawyer, face to face. If you need help finding one, send me a PM and I will tell you how to find a good one that will not charge you much or even help for free, located near you.
TW
A notarized letter has no legal effect. All the notarization is doing is certifying that the signature is genuine.
TWWould the notarized release signed by his Dad have the same effect as if his Dad signed at the crossing site:-??
Kirby, if your Dad is going to be signing away power of attorney, definitely get a lawyer. I'd be real hesitant to give this to a stranger. Also think about that you will have to involve the group leader in this decision. That sets the group leader up for a different level of responsibility. The group you plan to travel with is not youth orientated(?) and it's possible this person does not want the responsibility.
Further Kirby, you have expressed a fairly strong willingness to dump this group if it doesn't work out. You ought to think about the difficulties this might cause 1) in regard to having a former traveling companion have power of attorney and 2) suddenly traveling again as a minor.
Kirby, you strike many of us as a thoughtful mature young man, but on a 4-6 month trip, there are a lot of things that could go sour. You really should speak to an attorney, especially regarding what obligations your parents may have regarding letting a minor travel unaccompanied for this period of time.
Probably should be ready to show his passport too. After all, he will be passing through the boundary line between Carrying Place Township and Carratunk as he crosses the Kennebec:rolleyes:
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 08:19
A notarized letter has no legal effect. All the notarization is doing is certifying that the signature is genuine.
TW
But if he got the permission form mailed to him at home and was able to get his parents to co-sign to approve his crossing and get that notarized so that when he showed up to the ferry that permission slip is already covered.
A limited POA would probably be a good idea for him just for GP - in case he got hurt and needed medical care, or for a couple of other situations. That way the adult leader could handle things in case Kirby's parents can't be contacted.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2007, 08:21
Would the notarized release signed by his Dad have the same effect as if his Dad signed at the crossing site:-??
Kirby, if your Dad is going to be signing away power of attorney, definitely get a lawyer. I'd be real hesitant to give this to a stranger. Also think about that you will have to involve the group leader in this decision. That sets the group leader up for a different level of responsibility. The group you plan to travel with is not youth orientated(?) and it's possible this person does not want the responsibility.
Further Kirby, you have expressed a fairly strong willingness to dump this group if it doesn't work out. You ought to think about the difficulties this might cause 1) in regard to having a former traveling companion have power of attorney and 2) suddenly traveling again as a minor.
Kirby, you strike many of us as a thoughtful mature young man, but on a 4-6 month trip, there are a lot of things that could go sour. You really should speak to an attorney, especially regarding what obligations your parents may have regarding letting a minor travel unaccompanied for this period of time.
kirby, when and if you make it to the kennebec, have your dad meet y'all at the river and sign the release even though he doesn't have to. or arrive really early and ford
Or just have someone else claim they're you father.
sherrill
10-23-2007, 08:26
Well, I've been hiking and camping since 1970 and I honestly have to say I never thought that this would ever involve a legal discussion just to cross a river.
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 08:27
That sounds like a way to end up in prison accused of being Mr Jackson's dating service.
I just don't remember anything about a waiver or consent form when crossing the Kennebec... :-? IIRC it was around '99 or so.
Some of you already have the poor kid so weighted down in paperwork he needs to carry that he'll never make it to the river anyway. Alot to do bout nothing IMO, I agree with Sherill.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2007, 08:36
I just don't remember anything about a waiver or consent form when crossing the Kennebec... :-? IIRC it was around '99 or so.
www.riversandtrails.com/kennebec/august2001.html
about half way thru the article he talks about the waiver
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 08:40
Well I doubt it would weight him down too bad. And he is young. But The Weasel has brought up a great point an a very good idea. I know if I left my kids with anyone for 6 months I would want a limited power of attorney left with the adult in charge and with good cause. There are situations where that adult may need to make decisions that the parents normally would do for him. If I leave for combat I leave my own wife a Power of Attorney so there are no issues; and in this case neither of Kirby's parents are around.
It isn't hard to think of a situation either. Lets say Kirby gets a bad handful of GORP in the Smokies and two days latter is blowing out both ends. The group makes it to a crossing and gets him into Blount County Memorial to the Emergency room and his parents can't be contacted. It isn't life threatening, so they can't play that card for treatment, so he gets to sit around until they contact his parents to OK a prescription for something to help him over it.
Or he can get a simple piece of paper and it becomes a non-issue. I wouldn't hike without an insurance card and a list of phone numbers. Someone with a medical allergy would probably want a med-alert bracelet; and since Kirby is a minor, it would probably be sound and wise to have a limited POA.
Alligator
10-23-2007, 08:44
Some of you already have the poor kid so weighted down in paperwork he needs to carry that he'll never make it to the river anyway. Alot to do bout nothing IMO, I agree with Sherill.He's a minor Woodsy. What if a cop picks him up?
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 08:48
And a POA doesn't need to be more than one or two sheets of 8.5x11 paper. It would weigh approximately 7 grams.
He's a minor Woodsy. What if a cop picks him up?
I heard a story from someone (Miss Janet, maybe?) about a couple of underage hikers. They were picked up by the police and held as runaways until their parents were contacted.
He's a minor Woodsy. What if a cop picks him up?
For what? Crossing the river in a canoe?
OK, thought the question was about using the ferry service:confused::D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-23-2007, 08:50
SgtRock has made some excellent points. I was not aware that an adult was to be hiking the entire way with Kirby or would have suggested a limited POA myself. If this is done, definitely consult an attorney. POA's are not one-size-fits-all states' requirements and situations and giving one to a stranger requires more care than giving one to your wife.
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 08:52
For what? Crossing the river in a canoe?
OK, thought the question was about using the ferry service:confused::D
That is the way a thread drifts around here. Sort of like Kirby's question a while back about his food bag and where to get it. Asking a simple question can lead you to discovering things you never dreamed about asking. That is one reason I personally hate the straight forward section.
Alligator
10-23-2007, 09:10
For what? Crossing the river in a canoe?
OK, thought the question was about using the ferry service:confused::DFor looking like a runaway crossing a river:bse .
That is the way a thread drifts around here. Sort of like Kirby's question a while back about his food bag and where to get it. Asking a simple question can lead you to discovering things you never dreamed about asking. That is one reason I personally hate the straight forward section.
Yes of course:) Kirby's simple question about using the ferry service for 200'+ has now covered the entire 2175 miles of AT, legally speaking, and anything that could arise for an underage person out there. Lot's to think about of course. Certainly alot more than when i was 16, legally speaking.;)
For looking like a runaway crossing a river:bse .
They probably all look like runaways to the ferryman, LOL:rolleyes::clapSome just look older than others
dessertrat
10-23-2007, 09:40
I think it's great what we've done to our world. A 16 year old is now presumed to be a runaway if his parents aren't around. When I was about 9 years old my friends and I used to go camping for the weekend, light us a campfire, etc., with no adults present for two or three days.
What happened to those days?
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 09:50
Emancipation crossed my mind as well,.... Kirby would then have to carry a certified copy of the court order showing a court had declared him emancipated.
BTW, not all states accept other states' juvenile court orders so this should be done in an 'adult' court if Kirby and his parents elect to go this route.
FD:
You're a great hiker, but a lousy lawyer. (That's probably a compliment, too!!!):D First, "emancipation" is a truly bad idea for any minor unless there is a really terrible home situation. It terminates any right of the minor to have support from parents, and terminates all parental control over the minor. It is rare, and rightly so.
You're also incorrect about "other states accepting juvenile court orders." Any court in the US is required to give "full faith and credit" to the judicial orders of a court from another state as long as the order was properly entered. This is part of the US Constitution. If a court order is carried by someone, by the way, it should be a "certified copy" (with a seal on it from the court), and not a mere photocopy.
I hope Kirby notes, and follows, my suggestion that he (1) see a lawyer about getting a power of attorney issued from his father and (2) get such a power of attorney. He will want to have one.
TW
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 09:53
I think it's great what we've done to our world. A 16 year old is now presumed to be a runaway if his parents aren't around. When I was about 9 years old my friends and I used to go camping for the weekend, light us a campfire, etc., with no adults present for two or three days.
What happened to those days?
Those days are gone, and good riddance. You came home from those trips. Other kids didn't, so they aren't here to write about how wonderful those days were, because they didn't have any more. Some were taken on those trips and came home, but only after being seriously injured, and in some cases attacked by other adults.
Sorry, Rat, and I mean that, but the good old days were only good for those that they were good for. Things changed because of the fact that a lot of those days weren't good for everyone.
TW
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 09:56
By the way, yeah, there are thousands of 16 year olds who ARE runaways. Many of them live in desperation, hooked on drugs, functioning as prostitutes or worse, and heavily involved in theft and other crimes, many of them serious. They end up with their lives destroyed. So yeah, a police officer who finds a 16 year old without anything on him indicating his or her parents are permitting him to run free in the wilderness is gonna do what is necessary to protect that youth, including taking him/her to Children's Protective Services, until it is clear that the youth isn't a runaway.
That's a good thing. I wish we provided more funds for such things.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 10:01
Maybe Kirby can convince his father to get a cell phone so they could call him before they put him up for adoption.
....When I was about 9 years old my friends and I used to go camping for the weekend, light us a campfire, etc., with no adults present for two or three days. What happened to those days?
As did I and it is a loss. A great book "Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder" by Richard Louv documents the loss and suggests remedies.
The loss is why I fight every time our town land trust tries to restrict kids activities while using our preserves as kids are wont to do. Well, everything except kids using ATVs, which are destructive of the land and destructive of kids ability to relate to nature on nature's own terms.
I first learned of the surrender of Nazi Germany when I heard the church bells ring in a city across the water. Five of us had rowed a mile across the river in a homemade skiff several of us had built and were camping in a grove of pines.
Anyway I heartedly recommend Louv's book to families with kids and to people who work with kids. Of course kids take foolish risks, and are subject to attacks by nefarious people.
But there are far greater risks involved in a whole generation of children growing up without any serious contact with the natural world, and without learning to do things on their own. We learn best by trial and error. It's far better to have built a tree house that falls out of the tree, than never to have undertaken the challenge of a tree house at all.
Weary
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 10:28
Weary, kids wear helmets all the time these days if they do anything more dangerous than walking.
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 11:07
I heard a story from someone (Miss Janet, maybe?) about a couple of underage hikers. They were picked up by the police and held as runaways until their parents were contacted.
Yes, I met these kids on my very first AT backpack ever. That was likely "The Tennessee Outlaws" - Gloria (Sassafras) at 16, her sister Glory, 14, and their 12-yer-old brother Boo. They had an interesting story.
I'll tell what I know, with no wish to debate the "shoulds" or "shouldn'ts." I'll bet there are others on this site who could fill in other parts of their tale.
Sass had wanted to hike the AT part way, and as a home-schooled gal (from either GA or TN) her parents arranged for her to accompany a neighbor, an experienced woman hiker. But when the woman broke her leg, and Sass showed persistence in her goal, the parents agreed she could go - with her younger sister and little brother. I never figured that part out, but there it was.
They got on the AT at Gatlinburg. I met them at a campsite on the south flank of Snowbird Mountain. It had been in the high 80s that day, and that night the temps plunged and it snowed. Very cold.
They were terrific kids, and really took care of each other. They were inadequately dressed, lots of cotton, but they all piled together at night like puppies. Every night Sass would read to the other two as they settled down for the evening, good books, real literature. That picture still warms my heart.
One day on that trip, after that unexpected April snowstorm, I went over Max Patch in a fierce, estimated 60mph gale, kicking steps into the snow to climb, then nearly getting blown off the top, very hard to stand up and walk straight. It being my first AT trip, and solo, I was a little unnnerved by the fierceness of the weather and my perceived vulnerability. For better or worse the kids lacked that sense of "dire."
There, on the leeward side, the kids were snuggled up in the sun behind a sheltering rock, cooking lunch and reading aloud from an adventure book.
Some hiker reported the three kids to a Smokies ranger as being runaways, which they weren't. The rangers detained them, as I heard the story, until the parents confirmed.
In general, the thruhikers adopted the kids and watched out for them without being intrusive. There was alot of respect for the youngsters as they persisted and adapted. The kids were not whiners, and had a delightful, positive spirit, full of wonder, a joy to be around. They learned quickly, and it was here I saw the living adage "the trail teaches you what to do" take shape. They adjusted their techniques and clothes as they went along.
Some stories: At Watauga Lake, while they kids went swimming, someone stole some of their gear. The Blue Blazers of Damascus caught wind of it and "passed the hat," reequipping them with gear of their own.
Another story had Boo gathering water from a creek at dusk, and he began quietly piddling around the water, as young boys do. He looked up at on point to see a bear had come down to drink opposite him. Utterly startled, Boo jumped to his feet and froze, dropping his water bottle. The bear, also startled, rose up on the other side of the creek, chattering its jaws in alarm. There was a tense standoff, ended when the bear turned and left. That youngster will have a memory of that for life, I'll bet.
Theirs was an interesting tale, but after six weeks or so the parents pulled the plug and came and persuaded the kids to return home. Boo, in particular, misssed his mom and was homesick. Sass caught "the bug" though, and in 2002 went on to do her own thruhike of the AT at age 17, and in 2003 completed the PCT. Last I heard she was teaching English in Korea. An adventuress was launched on that first AT trip.
I would say these kids were exceptional in their innocence, confidence and sunny, friendly spirit.
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 11:09
Actually, now that I think of it, Boo was more like 11 - still a boy. i
Lone Wolf
10-23-2007, 11:10
Yes, I met these kids on my very first AT backpack ever. That was likely "The Tennessee Outlaws" - Gloria (Sassafras) at 16, her sister Glory, 14, and their 12-yer-old brother Boo. They had an interesting story.
I'll tell what I know, with no wish to debate the "shoulds" or "shouldn'ts." I'll bet there are others on this site who could fill in other parts of their tale.
Sass had wanted to hike the AT part way, and as a home-schooled gal (from either GA or TN) her parents arranged for her to accompany a neighbor, an experienced woman hiker. But when the woman broke her leg, and Sass showed persistence in her goal, the parents agreed she could go - with her younger sister and little brother. I never figured that part out, but there it was.
They got on the AT at Gatlinburg. I met them at a campsite on the south flank of Snowbird Mountain. It had been in the high 80s that day, and that night the temps plunged and it snowed. Very cold.
They were terrific kids, and really took care of each other. They were inadequately dressed, lots of cotton, but they all piled together at night like puppies. Every night Sass would read to the other two as they settled down for the evening, good books, real literature. That picture still warms my heart.
One day on that trip, after that unexpected April snowstorm, I went over Max Patch in a fierce, estimated 60mph gale, kicking steps into the snow to climb, then nearly getting blown off the top, very hard to stand up and walk straight. It being my first AT trip, and solo, I was a little unnnerved by the fierceness of the weather and my perceived vulnerability. For better or worse the kids lacked that sense of "dire."
There, on the leeward side, the kids were snuggled up in the sun behind a sheltering rock, cooking lunch and reading aloud from an adventure book.
Some hiker reported the three kids to a Smokies ranger as being runaways, which they weren't. The rangers detained them, as I heard the story, until the parents confirmed.
In general, the thruhikers adopted the kids and watched out for them without being intrusive. There was alot of respect for the youngsters as they persisted and adapted. The kids were not whiners, and had a delightful, positive spirit, full of wonder, a joy to be around. They learned quickly, and it was here I saw the living adage "the trail teaches you what to do" take shape. They adjusted their techniques and clothes as they went along.
Some stories: At Watauga Lake, while they kids went swimming, someone stole some of their gear. The Blue Blazers of Damascus caught wind of it and "passed the hat," reequipping them with gear of their own.
Another story had Boo gathering water from a creek at dusk, and he began quietly piddling around the water, as young boys do. He looked up at on point to see a bear had come down to drink opposite him. Utterly startled, Boo jumped to his feet and froze, dropping his water bottle. The bear, also startled, rose up on the other side of the creek, chattering its jaws in alarm. There was a tense standoff, ended when the bear turned and left. That youngster will have a memory of that for life, I'll bet.
Theirs was an interesting tale, but after six weeks or so the parents pulled the plug and came and persuaded the kids to return home. Boo, in particular, misssed his mom and was homesick. Sass caught "the bug" though, and in 2002 went on to do her own thruhike of the AT at age 17, and in 2003 completed the PCT. Last I heard she was teaching English in Korea. An adventuress was launched on that first AT trip.
I would say these kids were exceptional in their innocence, confidence and sunny, friendly spirit.
yup. i remember them. i bought them some gear and shuttled them
saimyoji
10-23-2007, 11:16
Baaaa means no.
But baaa means yes.
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 11:17
=========================================
I've crossed it twice and never been carded ...
'Slogger
Reckon that gray in yer beard had something to do with that?
:)
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 11:23
Reckon that gray in yer beard had something to do with that?
:)
Dang! Rock beat me to that mindless chain-jerk.
:)
ferryman
10-23-2007, 12:47
After I pay out one million dollars worth of ferry service insurance liability and one million dollars worth of property insurance liability, then I put out 500,000 worth of automobile liability insurance and then and only then, I require all passengers to sign a liability release form before crossing the Kennebec River. In the twenty years that I provided the ferry service, about 19,000 hikers have signed, others have not and still others have taken bad advice from "self proclaimed" trail experts and have ford/swam. Luckily, not a single death during my tenure at the Kennebec River. No hikers have ever been refused service, however on some occasions, due to extremely high water (flooding) conditons, I have instructed those hikers to walk back to Pierce Pond shelter (3.7mi) and I make plans to drive the 40 plus miles to pick them up. Generally speaking, if a hiker is under 18 years of age and is accompanied by a parent of guardian, both the hiker and guardian sign the same release form. If that hiker is part of a camp group, the trip leader signs the front of form and all others sign their name and address on back. If a hiker is thru-hiking the AT either N or S and is under 18, as far as I am concerned, they sign and cross with no questions asked.
That was my policy, however, that policy may or may not change with the new operators of the Kennebec Ferry Service. Thank you for taking the ferry! Steve Longley
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-23-2007, 13:03
Thank you for coming here and answering the original question.
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 13:08
yup. i remember them. i bought them some gear and shuttled them
Yes, they spoke highly of you.
Your kindness to them predisposed me to like you long before I met you.
But I won't let that get around and ruin your rep.
:)
Lone Wolf
10-23-2007, 13:13
Yes, they spoke highly of you.
Your kindness to them predisposed me to like you long before I met you.
But I won't let that get around and ruin your rep.
:)
i have my moments of niceness
Jan LiteShoe
10-23-2007, 13:14
i have my moments of niceness
So goes the rumor mill.
:)
About those three kids -- wow. Is there more info on them? Maybe a journal or something? Does anyone know what happened to them -- did they make it, did they do another long hike? That's really impressive.
I mean, did they eventually complete the AT?
Thank you Steve the Ferryman for the response, quite helpful. Steve mentioned that he will no longer be operating the ferry, is a new company taking over, or just a new person from the same company?
From what I have read in this thread, I should be carrying the following documents:
1. A limited Power of Attorney doucment created with the assistance of a lawyer, my father, and one or both of the leaders of the group I am hiking with.
2. A photocopy of both sides of my health insurance card.
3. An official for of indentification(state ID or drivers ID)
4. A notorized document signed by my father granting me permission to be hiking with Appalachian Trail, specifiying that I can hike with the group legally and that I have consent to be hiking on my own, in case I have any run in with legal authorities(police, etc)
5. Did I miss anything?
Kirby
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 17:42
A backpack with gear, food, and water.
A backpack with gear, food, and water.
Completely forgot about that!;)
Kirby
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 17:45
I think you finally are getting my sense of humor Kirby.
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 18:35
Thank you Steve the Ferryman for the response, quite helpful. Steve mentioned that he will no longer be operating the ferry, is a new company taking over, or just a new person from the same company?
From what I have read in this thread, I should be carrying the following documents:
1. A limited Power of Attorney doucment created with the assistance of a lawyer, my father, and one or both of the leaders of the group I am hiking with.
2. A photocopy of both sides of my health insurance card.
3. An official for of indentification(state ID or drivers ID)
4. A notorized document signed by my father granting me permission to be hiking with Appalachian Trail, specifiying that I can hike with the group legally and that I have consent to be hiking on my own, in case I have any run in with legal authorities(police, etc)
5. Did I miss anything?
Kirby
As far as the legalities go, that's pretty much it (keep in mind that the Power of Attorney gives the power to sign things for you to another person - not you - such as your group leader.
You also need the things that Rock mentioned. He left two things out, knuckledragger that he is: First, you need a sense of humor, to deal with thugs like him, but I think you have that. Second, boots/shoes would be useful.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 18:39
From what I have read in this thread, I should be carrying the following documents:
1. A limited Power of Attorney doucment created with the assistance of a lawyer, my father, and one or both of the leaders of the group I am hiking with.
2. A photocopy of both sides of my health insurance card.
3. An official for of indentification(state ID or drivers ID)
4. A notorized document signed by my father granting me permission to be hiking with Appalachian Trail, specifiying that I can hike with the group legally and that I have consent to be hiking on my own, in case I have any run in with legal authorities(police, etc)
5. Did I miss anything?
Kirby
You also need an ATM/debit and/or credit card if that can be arranged.
You don't actually need the health insurance card or even a copy of it, just the information on it including your ID #, the names of the insured and the policyholder, the effective date, the phone numbers, and the address for claims.
Consider getting a piece of tyvek such as a Priority Mail envelope and writing your phone numbers, calling card number, etc. down on it with a permanent marker. That way it will last your entire hike even if it gets wet. You can even make a wallet out of it and write your phone numbers in it. http://www.google.com/search?q=tyvek%20wallet%20instructions&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I found this very light and handy and it is nice to have a couple of pieces of gear you made yourself, even if they are simple.
A good life habit is to photocopy or scan the contents of your wallet and leave a copy at home when you travel in case you lose your wallet or it is stolen. It makes it easier to call and cancel your credit cards and you can tell the police what is missing.
Does power of attorney need to br granted to someone who is 18 or older, or can I design it so that I grant myself power of attorney?
Kirby
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 19:33
As far as the legalities go, that's pretty much it (keep in mind that the Power of Attorney gives the power to sign things for you to another person - not you - such as your group leader.
You also need the things that Rock mentioned. He left two things out, knuckledragger that he is: First, you need a sense of humor, to deal with thugs like him, but I think you have that. Second, boots/shoes would be useful.
TW
Guilty of bing a knuckle dragger.
Does power of attorney need to br granted to someone who is 18 or older, or can I design it so that I grant myself power of attorney?
Kirby
No - it must go to an adult.
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 19:35
The whole point of a POA is to give someone else the ability to act on your behalf in certain matters. Since you are a minor for at least some purposes in some states, your are not able to act on your own behalf in these instances. Normally your legal guardian, usually a parent, would have the responsibility to make certain decisions, enter into contracts, give consent, etc. on your behalf. In this case, your guardian will not be physically present, so your guardian is giving someone else permission to act on their behalf.
Here is an example of a power of attorney, for financial matters:
http://www.ilrg.com/forms/powatrny.html
For many purposes, such as obtaining birth control in Maine, you are legally able to make your own decisions.
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 20:10
Does power of attorney need to br granted to someone who is 18 or older, or can I design it so that I grant myself power of attorney?
Kirby
Kirby:
Rock's right. Probably. But that's a question to ask your local attorney. While you may not need one for a lot of things where people - not you, them - are being stupid by letting you sign things (since they're invalid, it's their risk, not yours!) you pretty much have all the useful info you're going to get on this point in terms of asking us at WB. You may also consider having a simple "permission slip" drafted (very similar to the ones I'm sure your school uses for sports and field trips. But again, I'd ask the lawyer. One thing you should ask her/him is to verify, to the extent possible, that your state's version of a power of attorney meets the minimum specs in the states along the AT. This isn't hard to check, since nearly every state in the Union (other than Louisiana...don't ask why, it's complicated) have pretty similar laws in this area.
TW
Thanks for the information, I will be sure to meet with an attorney sometime in the near future to draft everything out for my trip.
Kirby
The Weasel
10-23-2007, 20:31
Thanks for the information, I will be sure to meet with an attorney sometime in the near future to draft everything out for my trip.
Kirby
Keep the list for her/him short. That will keep it cheap, too. Or should. Ask prices up front. No good lawyer minds that.
TW
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 20:33
Keep the list for her/him short. That will keep it cheap, too. Or should. Ask prices up front. No good lawyer minds that.
TW
Know any lawyers that work for beer and/or food?
Appalachian Tater
10-23-2007, 20:34
I am curious if any hikers under the age of 21 or 19 or 18 have ever had any problems along the trail because of their age that a having a person with power of attorney present would have corrected.
SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 20:36
Who knows. Probably few to none. About the same number that got giardia when they didn't filter water.
But a POA weighs less and you don't have to pump it.
better to be safe than sorry I suppose. A lawyer who works for food and beer would be nice, maybe I can find a thru hiker next year who will do so, I will catch them when they are eating everything in their sight.
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 06:16
I am curious if any hikers under the age of 21 or 19 or 18 have ever had any problems along the trail because of their age that a having a person with power of attorney present would have corrected.
Anyone who is 18-21 is considered an adult, and a POA wouldn't be applicable. And Kirby is a bit atypical, as a minor who will be doing a thru without a parent/guardian present.
TW
Probably would't have been many situation where one would have helped a hiker under the age of 18 either.
The one question I would be asking is:
"How does a minor secure non-emergency medical attention in the absence of a parent?"
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 06:33
Probably would't have been many situation where one would have helped a hiker under the age of 18 either.
The one question I would be asking is:
"How does a minor secure non-emergency medical attention in the absence of a parent?"
By having another adult have permission, from the actual parent, to approve medical treatment and to promise, on behalf of the parent, payment fo it. Whether called a "permission slip" or "power of attorney," such a document is a Power of Attorney.
TW
Would a signed and notorized letter from Kirby's parents authorizing a Doctor or Dentist to perform any and all recommended services have any utility?
From what I gather from this thread, it probably doesn't from a legal stand point. But perhaps there are practical considerations for having one?
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 06:58
Would a signed and notorized letter from Kirby's parents authorizing a Doctor or Dentist to perform any and all recommended services have any utility?
From what I gather from this thread, it probably doesn't from a legal stand point. But perhaps there are practical considerations for having one?
As I keep saying, such a "letter" is a "power of attorney". Sort of in the same way that a "Ford" is a "car." A "power of attorney" is any document by which one person - such as a parent - conveys to another person - who is the "attorney" - the "power" to do something, such as approve medical services. An "attorney" is an ancient term meaning "representative". That's why my card says, "attorney at law", meaning I can serve as a "representative" of other people "at law", i.e. in legal matters.
A "power of attorney" is either "limited" or "general". If it is "general", it means the person appointed (the representative) can do anything that the appointing person (such as the parent) could do. If it is "limited", it means that the representative can only act within the limits of the described power, such as approve medical treatment.
When a Scoutmaster takes Scouts camping, she/he gets a "Permission Slip" that usually permits medical treatment in an emergency. That's a "limited power of attorney" although the term "Permission Slip" is usually used.
TW
OK.
So basically Kirby could walk into a Doctor's office alone with such a document and expect to be treated?
I wasn't getting that.
I did understand that you could give a named adult the power to deal with Doctors on your bealf.
My question was if a note from the parents authorizing the Doctors to perform thier services had any utility.
Or not.
dixicritter
10-24-2007, 07:45
No Rick, Kirby would need the adult leader of his group with him that has the "permission slip" from Kirby's parents because Kirby is a minor. He can't get medical treatment for himself even with a signed permission slip without an adult also present.
Luckily Kirby will have two adult leaders with him on this trip it sounds like, so I think he'll be covered just fine. I would think this group would have already arranged to have all the necessary paperwork to cover their butts on this trip, but then what do I know. ;)
My dad, on my behalf because I am under 18, has signed a liability waiver, so, in essence dixicritter, their butts are covered.
Kirby
dixicritter
10-24-2007, 09:05
My dad, on my behalf because I am under 18, has signed a liability waiver, so, in essence dixicritter, their butts are covered.
Kirby
This paperwork only covers them against your parents suing them in the event you get hurt. That's not what I meant actually, but I figured they would probably have your parents sign something like that.
What I was talking about was they may already have a medical permission slip in the "packet" of info that your parents will most likely have to fill out. Most organizations, like schools for example, do this to save them having to wait to get in touch with the parents to seek emergency medical attention for the kids (no offense meant). I would assume, but you and your parents should check with your group leaders, that something like this should already be included. It would save you having to hire an attorney at the very least.
I would hope that if this organization does these group hikes on a regular basis they know what they are doing and know what paperwork you will need to have with you. I would HOPE they would be able to give you these answers.
It's not just their butts that need to be covered mind ya, but you get my drift. Most "companies" are going to make absolutely sure that THEY are covered. You've gotten excellent advice here on how to cover you and your parents already, I was just giving the flip side. :)
Appalachian Tater
10-24-2007, 09:33
In an emergency, you will be given treatment regardless of your legal status--age, citizenship, etc. Even if you are unconscious, there is "presumed consent".
But you can't give a blanket, advanced "informed consent" because you have to understand what you are consenting to, what the possible complications are, what might happen with no treatment, what the alternative treatments are, etc. in order to be able to make a proper decision. The power of attorney will only empower someone to make decisions if the need arises.
The decision-maker does not necessarily have to be present. Verbal consent is given over the telephone routinely.
When you sign a "Living Will", you are outlining very specific circumstances, treatments, and conditions.
And The Weasel can correct me if I'm wrong, but having someone sign a liability waiver doesn't waive liability for gross negligence.
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 10:08
Kirby, Dixi and all...
First, this is why I think Kirby should thank all of us here, and end this discussion: It's a lot like saying, "I have a sharp pain in my stomach area, and a lot of inflammation showing." It may be from bad nachos, and just harmless indigestion, or it may be appendicitis, which can be fatal. For that, you go to the doctor. Here, Kirby is asking some very technical legal questions, and an internet forum isn't really good for that; he needs go to to see a lawyer about them.
Even within the limits of the conversation here, I disagree with Dixi a bit: A "note from a parent" is, as I've said elsewhere, a "power of attorney" (even if not notarized - the notarization is just to certify that the signature is authentic, in case someone questions it). Such a "permission slip"/power of attorney is given to another person who can then authorize medical care.
An attorney MIGHT (Kirby, make a note of this) suggest that his father could sign an "Advance Health Care Directive", which is a kind of power of attorney, usually done by adults in case they become unconscious or such. In that, his father could authorize certain medical treatment for Kirby, in case it is needed, by signing in advance. This is sort of what 'Tater is referring to.
As to liability waivers, well, I don't think it is wise for anyone to execute one, especially in circumstances such as Kirby's. While gross negligence might - MIGHT - not be waived, "simple" negligence (which usually isn't "simple") isn't smart to waive: For instance, his group leader is driving a car over the speed limit, on a rainy day, and crosses the center line, causing an accident. That may not be "gross negligence" as a matter of law. A waiver of liability might just mean that life-long injuries can't be compensated. I would probably strongly recommend AGAINST that sort of thing; Kirby (and most importantly, his father) should ask a lawyer, face to face, about such issues. If the "group" organization insists on one, I'd be very leery of that group.
TW
Pedaling Fool
10-24-2007, 10:12
give fording a shot
I did when I was 16, back in 1980 there was no ferry.
Lone Wolf
10-24-2007, 10:12
I did when I was 16, back in 1980 there was no ferry.
pretty easy wasn't it?
Pedaling Fool
10-24-2007, 10:15
I had a harder time crossing some of the roads in the mid-Atlantic states during my '06 hike.
pretty easy wasn't it?
Lotta things are easier when you're 16. :rolleyes:
Appalachian Tater
10-24-2007, 10:47
Kirby, Dixi and all...
First, this is why I think Kirby should thank all of us here, and end this discussion: It's a lot like saying, "I have a sharp pain in my stomach area, and a lot of inflammation showing." It may be from bad nachos, and just harmless indigestion, or it may be appendicitis, which can be fatal. For that, you go to the doctor. Here, Kirby is asking some very technical legal questions, and an internet forum isn't really good for that; he needs go to to see a lawyer about them.
Even within the limits of the conversation here, I disagree with Dixi a bit: A "note from a parent" is, as I've said elsewhere, a "power of attorney" (even if not notarized - the notarization is just to certify that the signature is authentic, in case someone questions it). Such a "permission slip"/power of attorney is given to another person who can then authorize medical care.
An attorney MIGHT (Kirby, make a note of this) suggest that his father could sign an "Advance Health Care Directive", which is a kind of power of attorney, usually done by adults in case they become unconscious or such. In that, his father could authorize certain medical treatment for Kirby, in case it is needed, by signing in advance. This is sort of what 'Tater is referring to.
As to liability waivers, well, I don't think it is wise for anyone to execute one, especially in circumstances such as Kirby's. While gross negligence might - MIGHT - not be waived, "simple" negligence (which usually isn't "simple") isn't smart to waive: For instance, his group leader is driving a car over the speed limit, on a rainy day, and crosses the center line, causing an accident. That may not be "gross negligence" as a matter of law. A waiver of liability might just mean that life-long injuries can't be compensated. I would probably strongly recommend AGAINST that sort of thing; Kirby (and most importantly, his father) should ask a lawyer, face to face, about such issues. If the "group" organization insists on one, I'd be very leery of that group.
TW
I hope that whatever arrangements the lawyer concocts will hold up in all of the fourteen states that the trail passes through. There are so many interstate problems with these simple legal documents.
Lone Wolf
10-24-2007, 10:47
Lotta things are easier when you're 16. :rolleyes:
pretty easy fording at my age too
pretty easy fording at my age too
Ya, but wait a few years.
taildragger
10-24-2007, 11:53
A backpack with gear, food, and water.
What, doesn't this go against the whole notion of a survival thru hike?
Just use your hand, kill some deer, use the hide for a frameless pack, use the brain to tan the leather, use the rest of the hide for clothes and sleeping bag, eat the deer, harvest some geese, use down feathers to stuff deer sleeping bag. Lastly, make a wood burning stove out of the horns and other bones, use the geese bones if you want it to be "featherlight"
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-24-2007, 12:58
::: Dino struggling to resist urge to photoshop LW in deerskin loincloth :::
Jan LiteShoe
10-24-2007, 13:54
About those three kids -- wow. Is there more info on them? Maybe a journal or something? Does anyone know what happened to them -- did they make it, did they do another long hike? That's really impressive.
I mean, did they eventually complete the AT?
I don't know about Boo and Glory, but Sass did in '02, and went to thru the PCT in '03. Sass is mentioned in some '02 journals. I forget her traveling buddy, but it was another female hiker and they were swift walkers.
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 18:38
I hope that whatever arrangements the lawyer concocts will hold up in all of the fourteen states that the trail passes through. There are so many interstate problems with these simple legal documents.
Actually, not. Most states, in terms of "estate planning" documents (which is what these are), have anywhere from similar to identical laws (called "Uniform Laws") for precisely this reason.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-24-2007, 20:51
Actually, not. Most states, in terms of "estate planning" documents (which is what these are), have anywhere from similar to identical laws (called "Uniform Laws") for precisely this reason.
TW
That's good to know. I have seen issues with out-of-state advance directives but the situations were problemmatic anyhow and that was just another factor.
The Weasel
10-24-2007, 22:13
That's good to know. I have seen issues with out-of-state advance directives but the situations were problemmatic anyhow and that was just another factor.
Tater, while different courts (not just different states) might make decisions that are a bit at variance, as for advance directives, it is a precise example of "uniform laws." There is a Uniform Health Care Decisions Act" which has been adopted by most states in almost identical form.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-24-2007, 23:12
Apparently it's not the most popular of the uniform laws. Obviously other states may have very similar laws. There is actually a compact between several states to accept each others' nursing licenses and I am all for this sort of thing.
http://www.nccusl.org/Update/uniformact_factsheets/uniformacts-fs-uhcda.asp
STATE ADOPTIONS:
Alabama
Alaska
Delaware
Hawaii
Maine
Mississippi
New Mexico
Wyoming
2007 INTRODUCTIONS:
Montana
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 00:49
I don't think Kirby is trying to become a nurse.
The Weasel
10-25-2007, 01:26
I don't think Kirby is trying to become a nurse.
Yes, but only in Delaware and
The Weasel
10-25-2007, 01:27
...and Alaska. He's preparing thoroughly.
TW
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 07:35
I don't think Kirby is trying to become a nurse.
SGT Rock, The Weasel, those are the states with the Uniform Health-Care Decisions Act. Click the link. Have a little faith in old Tater.
Wow, I am glad you guys said that. There are now well over 20 states in the Nursing Licensure Compact, there were only about 5 a few years ago. Of course, New York will be the last state to adopt it. https://www.ncsbn.org/158.htm